[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Recent initiative that has recently been \Ngetting more and more important.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we're not just talking about inclusion\Ndue to gender, we want to talk about
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sexual identity, gender identity, \Ninvisible illness, disabilities, race,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,creed, colour, whatever kind of colour you\Nmight wear in your underpants - whatever.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, I don’t want to run this as a lecture,\NI want this to be a workshop.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm only here as a facilitator; I want you \Npeople to get involved
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's why all the ambient microphones\Nhere in the lecture theatre are on
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but only for this session.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That means I don’t have to keep \Npassing the microphone around.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As most of you are probably aware -\NI’m going to kick off with myself
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and why it's so important for me -
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as you’re well aware I’m a trans woman,\Nwhich is something the recent Trump
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,election has made me very very \Nscared about. I’m also bisexual.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I also have two invisible illnesses:\NI’m a manic depressive and I suffer
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from gout and arthritis.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I tick many of the boxes that diversity\Nand inclusion are all about.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this is why it’s important to me,\Nand I want you guys - anyone else want
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to kick off and say what diversity and \Ninclusion means to them and what can
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we as Debian do more to raise its\Nvisibility, how to catch when it's
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contravened, maybe possibly review our \Ndiversity statement (though I think it's
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pretty good as it is at the moment).
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So does anyone else want to say anything\Nafter I’ve finished my wurbling?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Go ahead guys it’s up to you - this is for\Neveryone to be involved.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well it’s interesting because Debian \Nas a whole if you look across the last
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,20 odd years is one of the most diverse \Nentities I can think of at this scale
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and, you know, we have people of all \Nbeliefs and none,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have mostly men and too few women
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have very few physically disabled folk
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have very few visually impaired folk
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,relative to the numbers of Debian \NDevelopers and Debian Maintainers.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But actually we are a good diverse community\Neven if sometimes we don't sound like it.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're a lot better than some of the\Nmainstream.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh I completely agree with you. Last year\Nwas my first year at the Mini-DebConf
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,since I transitioned full time, and\NI was just amazed at how accepting
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everybody was - it was just fantastic and \Nit just was a non-issue, and I blogged
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about this on Planet Debian later. \NBut yes, I agree we are more diverse
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than the average, but I still think \Nthere's more we can do and
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,possibly I’d like to see more \Npro-activism about it rather than
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just passive acceptance if you\Nsee what I mean.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Anybody else?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So a lot of people here will know me and \Nthis is going to sound a bit odd
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I think Debian is doing very \Nbadly at being inclusive to
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people who don't like fighting \N
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience] Thank you Ian
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience] That's a fair point
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'm very conscious of this \Nand I try very hard
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to encourage and help those people.\NAnd because I'm rather thick- skinned
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and being a bit older I don't care \Nso much what people think
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm more able to fight than other people \Nare. But I'm still having to fight too much
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm having to fight too much\Nnot so much for myself
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but for other people that I think \Nare getting a raw deal.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I don't really know what\Nto do about that.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You're entirely right,\Nthere is an adversarial approach.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Understanding your corner is how you\Nargue something forwards,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that same approach is what,\Nas you quite rightly say,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,puts a lot of people off as they don't\Nwant to fight because you may not have
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enough confidence to your own \Nability to stand your corner.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the reason people are doing this\Nis purely because if you don't shout
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you don't push your own agenda\Nnothing will happen.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we end up with the status quo.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, how do we get other people involved?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How do we take the adversarial \Napproach out of this?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think this is covering the whole\Ndiversity bit Lucy is talking about
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is unless people are brave enough to\Nstand up and say 'this is an issue for me'
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nobody is going to pay any attention.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And part of the problem is you've got to \Nstand up and say 'this is an issue for me'.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Where do we go?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, I'm speaking from a position\Nof privilege.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So please tell me if what I'm about \Nto say you think is wrong.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You said that it would be a \Ngood thing to take the
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,adversarial approach out of Debian.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There’s a degree to which I’m not sure \Nthat’s necessarily the best approach.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The scientific method, the Socratic \Nmethod, the sort of actually
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having debate to discuss what \Nthe best solutions are, and
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think there is virtue in that.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think there's an element to which\Nyou need to be able to argue your corner.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But at the same time what you're saying\Nis that you're having to fight too much.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Certainly conflicts can become personal,\Nand they can become deeply adversarial
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is not necessarily good.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think the ideal is one where you can\Ncontinue to engage in the Socratic
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the scientific method but \Nmay do so in a place where
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it is safe to be wrong.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lars you wanted to say something?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, I was going to basically say what he \Nsaid but stressing the fact that there is
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a difference between a debate \Nand a flame war.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, and recognising that is the point\Nwhere it is becoming personal
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the point we've got to all stop.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In fact recognising it's about to become\Npersonal is the point we've got to stop.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm just going to throw out an idea here\Nthat may be completely bonkers
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or not really that acceptable,\Nbut is it possibly an idea to have
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some kind of Debian-appointed\Nofficial personality moderators?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So basically if something seems to be \Ngoing out of line they will take to
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,personal messaging someone saying\Ncan you cool it down a bit.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience] A speaker of the house or \Nreferee?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,More someone that people who don’t\Nfeel they can for themselves
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can go to, or if they see in a discussion \Nthat something’s going out of order
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they can take the people aside and \Nsay look calm down guys.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean it’s just an idea and those \Npeople are publicised in some way
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the wiki or whatever.\NSorry Andy?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So hire some psychologist to monitor \Nour mailing list? [audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's interesting in fact because I've \Nspent 20 years plus on mailing lists.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've seen flame wars in Debian like you \Nwouldn't believe. [audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think we're getting better. \NAnd surprisingly, I think we're
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,getting better because we're getting\Nused to operating at a distance
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,via the impersonal medium of\Nmessaging and messages.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think it's a thing you have to get used\Nto, but yes - when it becomes personal
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then it becomes very difficult.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I suppose the only thing I would like\Npeople to think, and try and remember
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that respect goes upwards,\Ndownwards, sideways.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that sort of of respect across the \Nproject works better.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't think we're doing well on diversity at all.\N[audience agreement]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think Debian is extremely straight white\Nmale working men's club community.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if I look at my employers as well,\Nin my team we're all white male.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's a team of 15 people, so\Nthat's not diverse.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, and unfortunately it's\Na problem across the entire industry.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of the reasons I've been pushing\Nthis recently is that I've been getting
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,involved in our own internal \NARM diversity and inclusion.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In fact I was in a video they did\Nrecently for Ada Lovelace day.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's the fact that we're\Nnot retaining women,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the fact that a lot of people who feel safe\Nto be out in some other way is limited,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we're trying to improve on this
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I'm just seeing this as an extension \Nof this. Personally, if I'm doing it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in one part of my life I want to \Ndo it in other parts of my life.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's why I wanted to launch this session.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But yes, I agree - I don't believe we are \Nrepresentative.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We tend to be more accepting - our\Ninclusion is pretty good but our diversity
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is pretty poor.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,People agree with that?\N[audience agreement]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steve.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We keep on saying we have\Na diversity statement, and we want
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to support diverse people -\Nwell, absolutely.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're better than we used to be,\Nbut we're still crap.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean I remember 15 years ago\Nhaving discussions like this
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when we had 3 whole\Nfemale developers.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't know how many we have now.\N[audience]: more than that.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If it's more than 20 or 30 I'd be amazed.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[ It's certainly not many, but in New\NMembers at least, we don't track it.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Precisely because it shouldn't matter. ]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On a related note:\Nwhen 2 Debian Developers have children
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do they become DDs automatically?\N[audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So actually related to that, just looking \Nround the room, one of the metrics
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where we're not being very inclusive\Nis getting young people in.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Particularly if it's an adversarial \Nrelationship and you have to be
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,able to argue your case.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you're 16 years old then that might\Nbe an unattractive place to be.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Something to help support people and\Nget up to speed would be wonderful.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well I have experience trying to get \Nsomeone of that age to a technical
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,related conference.\NAt that age people are so self-conscious
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that even if you are extremely supportive\Nthey won't go.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I don't think that's\Nnecessarily a fixable problem.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm trying to solve that problem.\NMy daughter has come to a couple
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of DebConfs: she's not at that age yet\Nand will be later.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The approach is bring her earlier.\NShe'll be here tomorrow.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One problem I see is that I don't think\Nwe should be openly pro-active about it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like making a big deal out of it.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What I see is that when\Nsomething bad happens
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like a woman is followed or\Nstalked by a man
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or someone has a problem\Nwith your sexuality
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then as a bystander what can I do\Nto make this better?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because if I see something, I don't know
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what I should do to diffuse the \Nsituation to make the one that is
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stalking or making bad comments
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: you should use your male white\Nprivilege to call out bigotry
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes.\N[audience]: And stand up for other people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: should there be an \Nescalation process when that doesn't work?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No, it's de-escalation process. \NYou're not accusing people.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: But the point is when \Nit doesn't work.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When it doesn't work, right, ok.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When it continues, potentially the\Nsame offender in one case or many cases,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Is there a way that this is able to be\Ntaken further by a group in Debian
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that can deal with that\Nindividual or group?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[moderator:] Lars?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I see again a duality here: people who \Nneed to be taught or need to learn
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to not be jerks.\N[audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But most people are happy to not\Nbe jerks if they're shown how not to.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there is a small group of people\Nwho need to be kicked out.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yesterday evening - late in the evening -\Non the Debian Women channel
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[well-known Internet troll]\NMikeeUSA came back.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience dismay]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He was very happy with the US\Npresidential election result.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But like, I don't know, personally I \Nblock people on Facebook.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have 35 people blocked on Facebook.\NBecause I just don't want to.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then my life became happier online.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: That works on a personal\Nlevel, but having an irc channel
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,frequented by someone with views of\Nhate and making death threats
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,needs to be corrected on a project level.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One thing that's been suggested before\Nbut never really actually happened:
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of Debian's discussions \Ntake place on mailing lists
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are not only publicly viewable \Nthey are totally un-moderated.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this is good in one sense: it helps\Nkeep the wider community involved
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it also means that there are people\Nwho get involved on those lists
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who I do not believe are in any\Nreasonable sense part
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the Debian project\Nand are not communicating with it.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And who come along pretty much - I\Nthink - purely to stir up arguments.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, how much of the 'systemd' flame war\Nwas people who were actively involved
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the project? Do we need\Nsomewhere the project can discuss things
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which can't just be posted to\Nby any random troll on the Internet?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, in Ubuntu, the\Nubuntu-devel list was split
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into ubuntu-devel for members only,\Nand its limited access rights,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then ubuntu-discuss for general public.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The net result was that yes,\Nthe flame wars disappeared,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,however the community\Ncontracted a lot as well.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that turned away a whole bunch of people\Nsuch that the traffic just became dead.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: It may also result in just \Nall flame wars just moving from one
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mailing list to a different mailing list,\Nand just -
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right, initially that's what happened.\NBut then loads of people unsubscribed
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then people disappeared, \Nover a longer time.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can I ask a question \Nabout this experiment in Ubuntu?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What was the situation if you were a \Nnon-Ubuntu developer/person and you
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mailed that mailing list?\NWould somebody moderate it?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It goes to moderation queue and\Nthen Colin Watson, every other fortnight,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He would approve a whole bunch \Nof messages if they were fine.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: And would you get \Nwhite-listed eventually.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, if you post enough \Nyou get white-listed by Colin.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it all falls back to Colin\Nor something like that.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience:] That's a lot of overhead
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for a team that already can't\Nkeep up in our case.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience:] It also slows down the \Ndiscussion a lot.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[moderator]: And to be honest these are \Nall reactive containing measures.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience:] Yes, we shouldn't have\Nthis problem in the first place.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the problem is that the world has \Ncrappy people in it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and if we set up a thing that is attractive\Nto those crappy people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where they can do their crappy things\Nthen they will come and do it.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you can say well that's bad, but you \Nknow if you have a solution for dealing
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with that for the whole world then...
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: You can't fight social \Nproblems with technical measures.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: They can help
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's completely false, for example\Nthe Debian bug tracker should stop
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unsubscribing me because I use Gmail.\NBut that's unrelated to the topic.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was thinking about one thing to have a\Ndiscussion in a more natural environment:
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think more of them via wikis as you \Ndon't have the personality that's put
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forward so much. You can edit if there\Nis anything too offensive. You still have
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the history so it's not lost the thing \Nthat's displayed there if it hasn't been
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,edited for let's say a day it's probably\Nthe (?? 17:58)
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is not bad and if you edit you \Nexplicitly, it's visible to everybody
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it was considered (??18:04) not bad and then\Nafter when you have the discussion
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can have section about argument\Nand people they answer just below
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then you don't keep repeating\Nyourself about what you said.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You answer some question and somebody\Nasks again the same thing you have
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everything there. If it's not there you\Nadd it. I don't think you can do
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everything this way but when you have an \Nidea in open discussion it's not going
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to work. But when you have an idea you \Ntry to reach consensus for something
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe using a wiki could be quite useful.\NSomething which is not conversation based
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but you know just shared\N[audience]: content based
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: In Wikipedia they have\Nlong discussions about things
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and quite often this doesn't help\Nto create consensus.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Even the same arguments are\Nrepeated over and over again.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it doesn't really help, in my opinion.\N[facilitator]: Andy?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It strikes me we're all in agreement\Nthat we shouldn't be tolerating anything
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we should be and we're saying\Nwho's going to moderate it.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The simple answer is every single\Nperson has to moderate it.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There and then, at the point you see \Nsomething you've got to call it out.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We've got to stop being rocks \Nand being passive ourselves.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And until that happens we're not\Ngoing to create an environment
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where people feel safe to state their \Nopinion and beliefs and their identities
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of fear that their going to be \Ncalled out in some way.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so we've got to, you now - if I'm out \Nof order, stop me now - don't wait a week
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and bitch that Andy's being a bit of a \Ndick out there and have a moan.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At the point I start to be a dick stop me.\N[audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that should apply to \Nevery single person.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Facilitator]: Again we're talking\Nabout being reactive.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What can we do to be more proactive\Nand get more people involved?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I just wanted to say that I've ended up\Nin a couple of debian-devel discussions
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and on the front page of\NHacker News and Slashdot
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and when the debian-devel \Ndiscussion was going on
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there were lots of personal attacks and\Nit was Ian Jackson who stepped in
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a couple of other developers\Nstepped in and they defended me.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it was because I'd seen that there\Nwere people that were going
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"no what are you doing, this \Nis wrong don't do this"
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I knew that that wasn't the \Noverall view of the community.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And just seeing something happening\Nmade everything a lot better.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is going back to the concept about\Nthe personality moderators.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And as I say, sometimes you\Nmay be wanting to say something
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but you don't feel you can.\NAnd because it's a silent thing
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people aren't going to know that you\Ndid want to say something
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is why you need people you can\Napproach and say "this is what I say,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is why I don't feel I can say it".
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, how can I try to be proactive with \Ndiversity? I think that's one of...
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean we're all in agreement that\Nwe should be more diverse,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what can we do to fix that?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In Debian we have an outreach team\Nwhich runs - well, participates -
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in internship programmes:\NGoogle Summer of Code, Outreachy...
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are programmes that try to involve\Nnew people in our community.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We are struggling with finding good \Nprojects and good mentors
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to guide those interns in the project.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're also trying to do diversity\Nbursaries for DebConf
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so bringing new people\Ninto those conferences.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We need, I guess, help to do that.\N[audience]: Where do we sign up?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Where do we sign up to help?\N[audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, there is a Debian outreach mailing\Nlist where we send
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,announcements about programmes.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We can talk and add more people\Nto the outreach ideas I guess.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if you have ideas about what we can, \Nwhat we should do, then you can speak up.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What's the first port of call\Nfor any new person for the Debian Project?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience] There is a welcome \Nteam, I'm not part of it -
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No, I mean when someone says here's\NDebian I want to find out about it.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Where's the first place they go?\N[audience]: Front page.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes. We need something linked\Noff the front page.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's nothing on or linked from the\Nfront page that indicates our diversity
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I had difficulty finding our\Ndiversity page a couple of days ago
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in preparation for this discussion.\N[audience agreement]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Some of the information is there\Nbut it's not immediately visible.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's silent and that's where we need to\Nincrease our visibility and say
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"look, we are inclusive of these things\N- come and join us".
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: I don't know, I always view \NDebian as a social project
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rather than a technical one.\N[others]: It's a mixture of both.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: How is that relevant?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because our front page is all about \Nhow to download the CD images.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: So debian.org, in your \Nopinion,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is directly technical rather than social?\N- Yes. And it should be both.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: So we need to fix that.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: That's quite a sweeping \Nassessment.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience laughter]\N- I'm exaggerating.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: There is \Nsome people stuff on there as well
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it's smaller than all the rest. \NThere should be something there.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is, but the text is like this big \N[very small].
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's a number of bugs open against \Nwww.debian.org, and the problems
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I think we have, and we talked \Nabout in Vienna are that
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you want to get started with packaging\Nyou have no hope. [laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You have literally no hope.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We tried to organise the wiki\Npages and there was no easy way
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to get started.\NSo I think we are closed to new people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unless you already know someone\Nwho can help you get started.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The downloading of CD images is\Nentirely done badly
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Steve has a bug for that.\NAnd the Blends pages were all listed
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,under the developers section even though \Nthat was user documentation.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I moved those out. But there is a lot\Nof work to be done on the website
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think the first step for that is\Nfiling bugs with ideas of how
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to reorganise this, and there really does\Nneed to be a project for that.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Does anybody here even look at\Nthe front page or use it for anything?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because I go to tracker.debian.org, \Nthat's the only URL I go to
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: I can never remember the \Ncategorisation of the URL so I have to
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not URL hack, because I always end \Nup at some error page.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I have to go via the front page\Nand it's maddening.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Speaking of packaging I remember\Nback in the days when I didn't know
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically I needed help with how the dev \Npackages were made up, what's inside it,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I didn't know how to create the ones \Nexcept create Debian capital directory
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and package into it.\N[audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I remember that I learned how to do that\Nnot through debian.org
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I knew someone who knew\Nhow to create packages using 'debhelper'
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they gave me, like, a long\Ndebian/rules script -
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,100 lines or something -
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I started hacking on that\Nand just trying things out
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but these days it's slightly better
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I still don't know what page\Nto point people at.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Probably something on the \Nwiki but no idea actually.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Is it slightly better or are\Nyou just more familiar
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with what needs to be done?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When I try to find a specification\Nof multiarch it's on the Ubuntu wiki.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Because that's the\NCanonical location!
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I tried to learn how to use triggers\Nlast week.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I later learned that I don't actually\Nneed triggers for that package -
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I can do it differently, I didn't use\Ntriggers in the end.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But, I actually went to an internal\NCollabora wiki resource,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I downloaded another package\Nwhich used triggers -
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Can I interrupt you here\Na moment and say
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we seem to be getting\Nderailed into a discussion
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of our technical deficiencies with our\Ntechnical documentation.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm sure that all of us are aware of \Ndeficiencies in our technical documentation.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'm not sure that as part of\Nan outreach effort is
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,quite the right framing for that.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: It's one of many things\Nwe need to improve,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the very very first thing\Npeople see, as Lucy said,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is way below par.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: But this is, I think, actually\Nquite a good point
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we are getting lost ourselves\Nand getting sidetracked
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,off the issue of how we pro-actively\Nencourage diversity.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we seem as a group to be spiraling\Ndown the technocracy again.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We seem to be fixated on the technical and\Nhow do we break that fixation?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Well we're technical people.\N[laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: So how do we get people who\Nare not technical?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: I'm going to say something \Nvery controversial here and so be aware
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's somebody at the back of the room\Nyou can throw things at. [Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm physically disabled and I'm also\Nwhat you might call neuro-diverse.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If I'm feeling bloody-minded I\Njust say I'm brain-damaged.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are a lot of people around me\Nin Debian and also elsewhere
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are on the autistic spectrum somewhere,\Nand who are technical types.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We all tend to be focused, technical,\Nand dealing with technical stuff
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is sometimes a lot easier\Nthan dealing with people.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We are the wrong people to be trying \Nto pull people in and in fact
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my other half was here last year, she sat\Nin the kitchen and she said "God, imagine
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you went to Central Casting and \Nasked for geeks - this is what you'd get".
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't know that we are good at or going \Nto be able to get more diverse people in.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But what we are good at is other\Naspects of diversity.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We are good at allowing\Npeople to be themselves
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of gender, sexuality, sexual expression\Nand that kind of stuff.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which other parts of the world\Njust generally aren't.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean it's not for nothing that we had a\Npresentation last year on BDSM and Debian
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from Enrico.\N[audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well I wonder if we can learn\Nsomething from one of the other
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,major geek communities which is the \Nsci-fi / fantasy fandom
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which have a very wide diversity and\Nhave no problems attracting people.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean the fact we're geeks shouldn't\Npreclude us from being able to be social.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience agreement]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: I mean Debian does attract \Nweird people and I once said that
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by definition to become a DD, being weird\Nis a requirement. [audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But why stop there? We can do more.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: What, include normal people?\N[audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Steady on. Lets not go there.\N[audience]: How do you define normal again?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Standing up straight.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: One thing, I've just been \Nclicking around on the Debian website
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and basically there's only one image there\Nand that's the Debian logo.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: That's on purpose.\N- I don't say make it like Ubuntu's website
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but there is some room I think for more, \Nit doesn't have to be stock photo.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Well on the Ubuntu website \Nwe have a lot of group photos
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from conferences and things.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Could we put a picture from DebConf?\N"We are people like Debian - come join us."
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: It's very impersonal now, and of course\Nit's nice for page loading times.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Facilitator: What about a few selected \Nbiographies with pictures
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and people saying what Debian\Nmeans to them
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and getting as a wide a selection\Nof people as possible?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: How about 'We are Debian'\Nand literally small bits and pieces?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You've seen quite a lot of\Nadvertising campaigns -
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the bios don't necessarily\Nneed to put stuff behind but a photo,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,random photo of every DD if they're\Nhappy to have it on the front page.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Picked at random photos show the \Ndiversity we've got so yes,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're possibly going to need\Nto positively bias this.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But show the diversity and by showing\Nwhat little diversity we've got
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but by stressing it more frequently\Nwe're making a safe -
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,- no, safe is the wrong word, a place\Nwhere people are comfortable
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be themselves.\N- Welcoming?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, welcoming. And put that\Nfront and centre.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ultimately I would hope that most of\Nus in this room would say that
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we try to leave our prejudices\Nat the door.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think most of us are happy to recognise\Nthat we have prejudices
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and have it called out on us\Nwhen we cross a line.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And unless everybody else is prepared\Nto do the same to us then we can't
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be welcoming to anybody else because\Nwe're not creating an environment
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where other people feel happy and \Nsafe in the first place.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Facilitator]:\NAnd of course a lot of bias is unconscious.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Very much unconscious and\Nthat's what we've got to overcome
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so we've got to actively overcome it.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Would anybody here genuinely be upset \Nif we put their photos on the front page?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: See also collabora.com?\N[audience]: well quite. Modulo scaring
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people away with my ugly face\N[audience laughter]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I've been doing that for years and it\Ndoesn't seem to have had a major problem.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Facilitator]: David?\NSorry I need to get my thoughts back.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you were saying something along\Nthe lines of unconscious biases and
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wanting to see that corrected. I have\Ncertainly discovered that I've been
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,exhibiting this myself in the past and \Npeople have told me that this was a thing
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I've gone 'oh my God, I'm so\Nsorry'. Being able to do that in a public
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forum and to be able to be able to \Nset a good example as to what good
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,behaviour looks like I think might also\Nhave some value. I think there're lots
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of people who are trying to do this\Nalready. I don't know if there's
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anything that could be \Nadded there as well.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Meeting in real life really\Ndoes help.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience agreement]
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I've heard quite a number of good ideas
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of which are going to need some\Ntechnical work to make them happen.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is a next obvious question:\NWho wants to help?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Lots of voices saying "Me"
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: we should take a picture of \Nthe DPL and put a face on the front page
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with a quote, right, that's an action item\N[audience]: It's a start
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: and to say we are a social \Nproject. Yes we have an operating system
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but we have a social project as well.\N[audience]: absolutely, we've already
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,suggested several improvements we \Ncould make to our website and various
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other things. A lot of the problems that\Nwe have in those areas are not that
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people don't agree with those ideas, it's \Njust finite effort. And we have a limited
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,number of people who've been able to \Nfind the time to do what is already
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,necessary and what we \Nknow is needed technically.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Again, we will need more help \Nto do this kind of thing.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: I would object to raising the\NDPL as the one person to stick on the
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,front page. Please don't do that. Because \Nthere are more people in Debian.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: And will never apply to be \NDPL ever again. [audience]: yeah, yeah
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: So if people want to help \Nwith this and actually get involved
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,technically to do it, that doesn't mean \Nediting wml but it will mean writing
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,content. It will mean getting some \Nstuff done. We can go forward with that
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we can make it happen. But it is \Ngoing to need some effort.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: I'll volunteer to write wml\Nif someone decides that needs writing
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Ditto, I will do that for \Npeople if they need it.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[facilitator]: I'm happy to produce \Ncontent as you're probably well aware.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: There's nothing in the Social \NContract about diversity.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Facilitator]: That's an interesting point\N
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: There doesn't have to be.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: There isn't we did make, we\Nhad a public vote, and we made a
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,diversity statement a few years ago. \NWe have made a very loud public statement
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the values of the project. In a \Nsimilar fashion to what we did with
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Social Contract. Do you think it \Nwould help if there was something
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about that in a modified Social Contract?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Yes, because then it would be\Nobviously central.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: At least part of the \Nstatement in the DFSG about not
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discriminating in software against\Nanybody.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Yeah, I'm not sure that that \Nwould help given the rows there've been
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over the Social Contract before.\NIn all seriousness we promote Debian
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as the universal operating system.\NWe promote it as something for everybody.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Rather than putting it into our technical \Ndocumentation we're better to live it.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Put it on the website, explain it. Live \Nit in conferences like this.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't think we need to add it to every \Npiece of technical documentation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,provided we can live the culture.\N[audience]: Is the Social Contract a piece
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of technical documentation? That's kind of\Ninteresting.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: If you want to push that \Nyou have my vote but I don't think
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's important.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: something that might help is \Nshowing these things not modifying them
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but showing them on the same page. The\NDFSG is appended to the Social Contract.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Have the diversity statement there and \Nanything else that's relevant and
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can find them in one place.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Facilitator]: Right we need to wrap\Nthis up in the next few minutes.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So has anyone else got any points \Nthey want to raise at this point?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Please make sure that the \Npoints that have been raised are in the
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Gobby doc, we seem to have \Nrun out of steam there.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: One last thing, sorry. \NIt comes into Social stuff
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,accessibility software, things like \NDasher, things like anything you need
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do when you're blind or you've only \Ngot one arm or that kind of stuff
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is at least as important in someways\Nas some of the other diversity stuff.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As otherwise we will be excluding groups.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Facilitator]: yeah I think that's quite valid.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience] I think that needs to be \Nconsidered if we make any changes to
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the website. Because at the moment it's\Nlovely for screen readers. And don't take
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that away. If we make the website all\NHTML5, JavaScript, CSS, Flash nonsense
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're going to screw screen readers.\N[audience]: no we can improve the website
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whilst retaining it's current \Nstandard for accessibility.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because the standard of accessibility \Nfor the Debian website is better
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,better than everything else \Nout there. It's amazing.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there are constraints on what \Nwe can do, that's well known.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Is Debian a universal operating system\Nor is it a global social project?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,An experiment?\N[audience]: Yes, both.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: It does not state that.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: So the first thing people \Nlook at is here's a load of technical
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stuff about Debian. We have this many \Npackages, here's how to download.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is nothing to say Debian is also \Na big diverse project you could join in.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: It's a social project.\N[audience]: Definitely
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Facilitator]: Any other different \Nopinions or things to raise before
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we run out of time? I think \Nwe've done this bit to death now.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Maybe one question with \Ndiversity. Do we want to reach or express
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we are diverse to our users or our \Ndevelopers. Is there a priority between
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the 2? I think it would go from user \Nto developer.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Facilitator]: Well it's a bit blurred \Nanyway.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: If we're a social project \Nthen everybody's included.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that includes the users, \Nthe developers because that's
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the point of a social group. \NIt's a big huge social group.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a social network: \NI run Debian [laugh].
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Facilitator]: Right I think \Nwe can wrap it up there.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you very very much\Nall of you for taking part.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience]: Thank you for \Npushing this as well.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Facilitator]: Thank you\N[audience]: Applause.