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Recent initiative that has recently been 
getting more and more important.

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And we're not just talking about inclusion
due to gender, we want to talk about

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sexual identity, gender identity, 
invisible illness, disabilities,

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race, creed, colour, whatever kind of 
colour you might wear in your underpants

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whatever. So, I don’t want to run this 
lecture I want this to be a workshop I'm

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only here as a facilitator I want you 
people to get involved that's why all the

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ambient microphones here in the lecture 
theatre are on but only for this session.

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Ok. That means I don’t have to keep 
passing the microphone around. As most

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Thank you very very much of you are 
probably aware I’m going to kick off

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with myself and why it's so 
important for me.

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As you’re well aware I’m a trans woman 
which is something the recent Trump

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election has made me very very 
scared about. I’m also bisexual.

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I also have two invisible illnesses I’m a 
manic depressive and I suffer from gout

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and arthritis. So I tick many of the 
boxes that diversity and inclusion are all

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about. So this is why it’s important to 
me and I want you guys, anyone else want

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to kick off and say what diversity and 
inclusion means to them and what can

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we as Debian do more about it to raise 
it’s visibility. How to catch when it’s

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contravened. Maybe possibly review our 
diversity statement though I think it's

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pretty good as it is at the moment. So 
does anyone else want to say anything

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after I’ve finished my wurbling. Go 
ahead guys it’s up to you this is for

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everyone to be involved

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Well it’s interesting because Debian 
as a whole if you look across the last

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20 odd years is one of the most diverse 
entities I can think of at this scale

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and, you know, we have people of all 
beliefs and none,

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we have mostly men and too few women

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we have very few physically disabled folk

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we have very few visually impaired folk

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relative to the numbers of Debian 
developers Debian maintainers.

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But actually we are a good diverse 
community even if sometimes

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we don't sound like it. We’re a lot 
better than some of the main stream.

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Oh I completely agree with you. I mean 
last year was my first year at the mini

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deb conf since I transitioned full time 
and I was just amazed at how accepting

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everybody was it was just fantastic and 
it just was a non-issue and I blogged

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about this on Plant Debian later. 
But yeah, I agree we are more diverse

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than the average but I still think 
there's more we can do and

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possibly I’d like to see more 
pro-activism about it rather than

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just passive acceptance if you see what I 
mean.

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Anybody else?

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So a lot of people here will know me and 
this is going to sound a bit odd

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but I think Debian is doing very 
badly at being inclusive to

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people who don't like fighting 


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[audience laughter]

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[audience] Thank you Ian

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[audience] That's a fair point

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And I'm very conscious of this 
and I try very hard

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to encourage and help those people.
And because I'm rather thick skinned

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and being a bit older I don't care 
so much what people think

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I'm more able to fight than other people 
are. But I'm still having to fight too

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much. I'm having to fight too much 
not so much for myself

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but for other people that I think 
are getting a raw deal.

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And I don't really know what to do about 
that.

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You're entirely right

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There is an adversarial approach

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understanding your corner is how you 
argue something forwards

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and that same approach is what, as 
you quite rightly say, puts a lot of

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people off as they don't want to 
fight because you may not have

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enough confidence to your own 
ability to stand your corner.

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But the reason people are doing this
is purely because if you don't shout

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if you don't push your own agenda
nothing will happen.

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And we end up with the status quo.

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So, how do we get other people involved?

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How do we get the adversarial 
approach out of this?

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And I think this is covering the whole
diversity bit Lucy is talking about

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is unless people are brave enough to
stand up and say this is an issue for me

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nobody is going to pay any attention.

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And part of the problem is you've got to 
stand up and say this is an issue for me.

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Where do we go?

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So, I'm speaking from a position
of privilege.

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So please tell me if what I'm about 
to say you think is wrong.

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You said that it would be a 
good thing to take the

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adversarial approach out of Debian

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There’s a degree to which I’m not sure 
that’s necessarily the best approach.

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The scientific method, the Socratic 
method the sort of actually

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having debate to discuss what 
the best solutions are

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I think there is virtue in that. I think 
there's and element to which you need

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to argue your corner. But at the same
time what you're saying is that you're

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having to fight too much. Certainly 
conflicts can become personal

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and they can become deeply adversarial
which is not necessarily good.

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I think the ideal is one where you can
continue to engage in the Socratic

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and the scientific method but 
may do so in a place where

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it is safe to be wrong.

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Lars you wanted to say something?

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Yes, I was going to basically say what he 
said but stressing the fact that there is

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a difference between a debate 
and a flame war.

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Yes and recognising that is the point
where it is becoming personal

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is the point we've got to all stop.

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In fact recognising it's about to become
personal is the point we've got to stop.

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I'm just going to throw out an idea here
that may be completely bonkers

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or not really that acceptable 
but is it possibly an idea to have

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some kind of Debian appointed/
official personality moderators?

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So basically if something seems to be 
going out of line they will take to

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personal messaging someone saying
can you cool it down a bit.

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[audience] A speaker of the house or 
referee?

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More something/one that people 
who don’t feel they can for themselves

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can go to or if they see in a discussion 
that something’s going out of order

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they can take the people aside and 
say look calm down guys.

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I mean it’s just an idea and those 
people are publicised in some way

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on the wiki or whatever.
Sorry Andy?

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So hire some psychologist to monitor 
our mailing list? [audience laughter]

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It's interesting in fact because I've 
spent 20 years plus on mailing lists.

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I've seen flame wars in Debian like you 
wouldn't believe. [audience laughter]

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But, I think we're getting better. 
And surprisingly I think we're

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getting better because we're getting
used to operating at a distance

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via the impersonal medium of
messaging and messages.

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I think it's a thing you have to get used
to but when it becomes personal

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then it becomes very difficult.
I suppose the only thing I

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would like people to think and
try and remember is that

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respect goes upwards, downwards, sideways.

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And that sort of of respect across the 
project works better.

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I don't think we're doing well on diversity at all.
[audience]: I agree

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I think Debian is extremely straight white
male working men's club community.

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And if I look at my employers as well
in my team we're all white male.

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And that's a team of 15 people, 
that's not diverse.

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Yeah, and unfortunately it's a problem 
across the entire industry. [audience]:yes

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One of the reasons I've been pushing
this recently is that I've been getting

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involved in our own internal 
ARM diversity and inclusion.

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And in fact I was in a video they did 
recently for Ada Lovelace day.

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It's the fact that we're 
not retaining women

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the fact that a lot of people who feel 
safe to be out in some other way

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is limited and we're trying 
to improve on this and

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I'm just seeing this as an extension 
of this, personally if I'm doing it in

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one part of my life I want to 
do it in other parts of my life.

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That's why I wanted to launch this BoF.

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But yes I agree I don't believe we are 
representative we tend to be more

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accepting but our inclusion's pretty 
good but our diversity is pretty poor.

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People agree with that?
[audience]: yes

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Steve

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We keep on saying we have a diversity
statement we want to support diverse

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people, absolutely, we're better than
we used to be but we're still crap.

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I mean I remember 15 years ago
having discussions like this when

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we had 3 whole female developers.

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I don't know how many we have now.
[audience]: well more than that

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If it's more than 20 or 30 I'd be
amazed. [audience]: Active?

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It's certainly not many but in new
members, at least, we don't track it.

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Precisely because it shouldn't be.

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On a related note: when 2 Debian 
Developers have children do they

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become DDs automatically?
[audience]: laughter

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So actually related to that, just looking 
round the room one of the metrics

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where we're not being very inclusive
is getting young people in.

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Particularly if it's an adversarial 
relationship and you have to argue

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your case. If you're 16 years old then
that might be an unattractive place to be

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Something to help support people and
get up to speed would be wonderful.

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Well I have experience trying to get 
someone of that age to a technical

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related conference. At that age people 
are so self conscious that even if

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you are extremely supportive they 
won't go.

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So I don't think that's
necessarily a fixable problem.

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I'm trying to solve that problem.
My daughter has come to a couple

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of Deb Confs she's not at that age yet
and will be later.

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The approach is bring her earlier.
She'll be here tomorrow.

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One problem I see is that I don't think
we should be openly pro-active about it

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like making a big deal out of it.
What I see is that when something

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bad happens like a woman is 
stalked by a man or

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someone has a problem with your sexuality
then as a bystander what can I do

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to make this better? Because if 
I see something I don't know

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what I should do to diffuse the 
situation to make the one that is

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stalking or making bad comments

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[audience]: you should use your male white
privilege to call out bigotry

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Yes
[audience]: And stand up for other people

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Ok [audience]: should there be an 
escalation process when that doesn't work?

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No, it's de-escalation process. 
You're not accusing people.

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[audience]: But the point is when 
it doesn't work.

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When it doesn't work, right, ok.
[audience] When it continues potentially

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the same offender in one case or many
cases. Is there a way that this is able to

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be taken further by a group 
in Debian that can potentially

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deal with that individual or group?
Lars?

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So I see again a duality, people who 
need to be taught or need to learn

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to not be jerks. [audience laughter]
But most people are happy to not

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be jerks if they're shown how not to.
But there is a small group of people

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who need to be kicked out. Yesterday in 
the evening, late in the evening, on the

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Debian women channel mikeyUSA (?? 13:47) came
back. [audience]: Oh oh, oh no

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He was very happy of the US presidential 
(election result).

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But like, I don't know, personally I 
block people on Facebook.

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I have 35 people blocked on Facebook.
Because I just don't want to.

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And then my life became happier online 
[Laugh]

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[audience]: That works on a personal
level but having an irc channel

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frequented by (?? 14:13) views of hate and 
indifference (?? 14:18)

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needs to be corrected on a project level.

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One thing that's been suggested before
but never really actually happened

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is a lot of Debian's discussions 
take place on mailing lists

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that are not only publicly viewable 
they are totally un-moderated.

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And this is good in one sense it helps
keep the wider community involved

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but it also means that there 
are people who get involved

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on those mailing lists who I do 
not believe are in any reasonable

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sense part of the Debian project
and are not communicating with it.

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And who come along pretty much I
think purely to stir up arguments.

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How much of the system-d (?? 15:08) flame war [laugh]
was people who were actively involved

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in the project? And how much of it was? 
Do we need somewhere the project can

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discuss things that can't just be posted
to be any random troll on the internet?

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Well, in Ubuntu Ubuntu Devel was
split into Ubuntu Devel for members only

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and it's basic access rights and then 
discuss for general public.

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The net result was that yes the flame wars
disappeared, however the community

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contracted a lot as well. And that turned 
a whole bunch of people so much that

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the traffic just became dead. 


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[audience]: It may also result in just 
all flame wars just moving from one

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mailing list to a different mailing list
and staying

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Right, initially that's what happened.
But then loads of people unsubscribed

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And then people disappeared, 
over a longer time.

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[audience]: Can I ask a question 
about this experiment in Ubuntu?

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What was the situation if you were a 
non-Ubuntu developer/person and you

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mailed that mailing list? Would 
somebody moderate it?

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It goes to moderation queue and
then Colin Watson, every other fortnight,

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He would approve a whole bunch 
of messages if they were fine.

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[audience]: And would you get 
white-listed eventually?

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And yes, if you post enough 
you get white-listed by Colin.

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But it all falls back to Colin
or something like that.

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[audience] That's a lot of overhead 
for a team that already can't

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keep up in our case.

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[audience]: It also slows down the 
discussion a lot.

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[Facilitator]: And to be honest these are 
all reactive containing measures.

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[audience]: yeah, we shouldn't have
this problem in the first place.

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But the problem is that the world has 
crappy people in it and if we set up

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a thing that is attractive to those 
crappy people where they can do

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their crappy things then 
they will come and do it.

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And you can say well that's bad, but you 
know if you have a solution for dealing

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with that for the whole world then [laugh]

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[audience]: You can't fight social 
problems with technical measures.

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[audience]: They can help

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That's completely false, for example
Debian bug tracker (??172:7) should stop

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unsubscribing me because I use Gmail.
But that's unrelated to the topic.

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I was thinking about one thing to have a
discussion in a more (?? 17:42) environment

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I think more of them are via wiki as you 
don't have the personality that's put

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forward so much, you can edit if there
is anything too offensive. You still have

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the history so it's not lost the thing 
that's displayed there if it hasn't been

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edited for let's say a day it's probably
the (?? 17:58)

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this is not bad and if you edit you 
explicitly, it's visible to everybody

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that it was considered (??18:04) not bad and then
after when you have the discussion

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you can have section about argument
and people they answer just below

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And then you don't keep repeating
yourself about what you said.

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You answer some question and somebody
asks again the same thing you have

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everything there. If it's not there you
add it. I don't think you can do

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everything this way but when you have an 
idea in open discussion it's not going

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to work. But when you have an idea you 
try to reach consensus for something

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maybe using a wiki could be quite useful.
Something which is not conversation based

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but you know just shared
[audience]: content based

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[audience]: In Wikipedia they have long 
discussions about things and it's quite

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often you can have sections often that 
these don't help to create some concerns.

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Even the same arguments are repeated 
over and over again.

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So it doesn't really help, in my opinion.
Facilitator: Andy

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It strikes me we're all in agreement
that we shouldn't be tolerating anything

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we should be and we're saying
who's going to moderate it.

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The simple answer is every single
person has to moderate it.

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There and then, at the point you see 
something you've got to call it out.

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We've got to stop being rocks 
and being passive ourselves.

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And until that happens we're not
going to create an environment

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where people feel safe to state their 
opinion and beliefs and their identities.

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Because of fear that their going to be 
called out in some way.

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And so we've got to, you now if I'm out 
of order stop me now don't wait a week

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and bitch that Andy's being a bit of a 
dick out there and have a moan.

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At the point I start to be a dick stop me.
[audience laughter]

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And that should apply to 
every single person.

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Facilitator: Again we're talking about 
reactive. What can we do to be more

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proactive and get more people involved?

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I just wanted to say that I've ended up
in a couple of Debian devel discussions

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and on the front page of happy news and 
slash dot and the Debian devel discussion

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was going on there was lots of personal
attacks and it was Ian Jackson stepped in

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and a couple of other developers
stepped in and they defended me.

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And it was because I'd seen that there
were people that were going

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"no what are you doing, this 
is wrong don't do this"

259
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I knew that that wasn't the 
overall view of the community.

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And just seeing something happening
made everything a lot better.

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Facilitator: This is going back to the 
concept I was talking about about the

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personality moderators. And as I say 
sometimes you may be wanting to say

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something but you don't feel you can.
And because it's a silent thing people

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aren't going to know that you did want to
something which is why you need people

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you can approach and say this 
is what I want to say, this is why

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I don't feel I can say it.

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So, how can I try to be proactive with 
diversity? I think that's one of the..

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we're all in agreement that we should be
more diverse, what can we do to fix that?

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In Debian we have an outreach team
which runs / participates in internship

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programmes: Google Summer of Code, 
Outreachy. That are programmes that try

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to involve new people in our community.

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We are struggling with finding good 
projects and good mentors to guide

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those interns in the project.

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We're also trying to do diversity
bursaries for DebConf so bringing

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new people into those conferences.

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We need, I guess, help to do that.
[audience]: Where do we sign up?

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[audience]: Where do we sign up to help?
[audience laughter]

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So, there is a Debian outreach mailing
list where we send announcements

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about programmes. We can talk and add 
more people to the outreach ideas.

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And if you have ideas about what we can, 
what we should do, then you can speak up.

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Facilitator: What's the first port of call
for any new person for the Debian Project?

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[audience] There is a welcome 
team, I'm not part of it

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No, I mean when someone says here's
Debian I want to find out about it.

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Where's the first place they go?
[audience]: Front page

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Facilitator: Yes. We need something linked
off the front page. There's nothing on or

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linked from the front page that indicates 
our diversity because I had difficulty

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finding our diversity page a couple of
days ago in preparation for this BoF.

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[audience]: good point
Facilitator: Some of the information is

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there but it's not immediately visible. 
It's silent and that's where we need

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to increase our visibility and say look 
we are inclusive of these things

291
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come and join us.

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[audience]: I don't know, I always view 
Debian as a social project rather than

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a technical one.
Facilitator: It's a mixture of both

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[audience]: How is that relevant?

295
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Because our front page is all about 
how to download the ISO (?? 23:45)

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[audience]: So debian.org, in your 
opinion, is directly technical

297
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rather than social? Yes.
[audience]: And it should be both

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[audience]: So we need to fix that

299
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[audience]: That's quite a sweeping 
assessment. [laughter]

300
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm exaggerating. [audience]: There is 
some people stuff on there as well

301
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but it's smaller than all the rest. 
There should be something there.

302
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There is, the text is like this big 
[very small].

303
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There's a number of bugs open on 
www.debian.org and the problems

304
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that I think we have and we talked 
about in Vienna if you wanted to

305
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
get started with packaging you have 
no hope. [laughter] You have literally

306
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no hope. We tried to organise the wiki
pages and there was no easy way to

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get started. So I think we are closed to
new people unless you already know

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someone who can help you get started.
The downloading of ISOs (?? 24:49) is entirely

309
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
done badly and Steve has a bug on that.
And the blends (?? 24:55) pages were all listed

310
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under the developers section even though 
that was user documentation.

311
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So I moved those out. But there is a lot
of work to be done on the website and

312
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I think the first step for that is filing 
bugs with ideas of how to reorganise

313
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this and there really does need to be a 
project for that.

314
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: does anybody here even look at
the front page or use it for anything?

315
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because I go to tracker.debian.org, 
that's the only URL I go to

316
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[audience]: I can never remember the 
categorisation of the URL so I have to

317
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not URL hack, because I always end 
up at some 404. So I have to go via

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the front page and its maddening.
[Laughter]

319
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Speaking of packaging I remember (?? 25.38)
back in the days when I didn't know

320
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basically I needed help with how the dev 
packages were made up, what's inside it,

321
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but I didn't know how to create the ones 
except create Debian capital directory

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and package into it. [audience laughter]
I remember that I learned how to do that

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not through debian.org but I knew
someone who knew how to create

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Debian packages using dev helper and they
gave me, like, a long Debian roll script

325
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
100 lines of something and I started 
hacking on that and just trying things out

326
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but these days it's slightly better but I
still don't know what page to point

327
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
people at. Probably something on the 
wiki but no idea actually.

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[audience]: is it slightly better or are
you just more familiar with what needs

329
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to be done?
When I try to find a specification

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of multiarch it's on the wiki.
[audience]: That's the Canonical location.

331
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I tried to learn how to use dev triggers
last week. I later learned that I don't

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actually need triggers for that package
I can do it differently, I didn't use

333
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triggers in the end. But, I actually went
to an internal Collabora wiki/resource

334
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an internal source that used triggers.
[audience]: Can I interrupt you here a

335
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moment and say we seem to be 
getting derailed into a discussion of

336
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of our technical deficiencies with our
technical documentation and I'm

337
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
sure that all of us are aware of 
deficiencies in our technical

338
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
documentation. And I'm not sure that 
as part of an outreach effort is quite

339
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the right framing for that.
[audience]: it's one of many things

340
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we need to improve but the very very 
first thing people see, as Lucy said, is

341
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way below par.
[audience]: But this, I think, actually

342
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
quite a good point because we are getting
lost ourselves and getting sidetracked

343
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of the issue of how do we pro-actively
encourage diversity. And we seem as a

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group to be spiraling down the technocracy
again. We seem to be fixated on the

345
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
technical and how do we break that 
fixation.

346
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[audience]: Well we're technical people 
[laughter]

347
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[audience]: so how do we get people who
are not technical.

348
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: I'm going to say something 
very controversial here and so be aware

349
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there's somebody at the back of the room
you can throw things at. [Laughter]

350
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I'm physically disabled I'm also what you
might call neuro-diverse. If I'm feeling

351
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bloody minded I just say I'm brain 
damaged. There are a lot of people

352
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around me in Debian and also elsewhere
who are on the autistic spectrum somewhere

353
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who are technical types. We all tend to be
focused, technical, dealing with technical

354
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
stuff is sometimes a lot easier than 
dealing with people.

355
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We are the wrong people to be trying 
to pull people in and in fact

356
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
my other half was here last year, she sat
in the kitchen and she said "god imagine

357
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if you went to central casting and 
asked for geeks this is what you'd get"

358
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I don't know that we are good at or going 
to be able to get more diverse people in.

359
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But what we are good at is other aspects
of diversity. We are good at allowing

360
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people to be themselves in terms of 
gender, sexuality, sexual expression

361
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and that kind of stuff. Which other 
parts of the world generally aren't

362
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean it's not for nothing that we had a
presentation last year on BDSM and Debian

363
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from Enrico.
[audience laughter]

364
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Facilitator: Well I wonder if we can 
learn something from one of the other

365
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
major geek communities which is the 
sci-fi / fantasy fandom which have a very

366
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wide diversity and have no problems 
attracting people. I mean the fact we're

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geeks should preclude us from being 
able to be social. [audience]: I agree

368
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: I mean Debian does attract 
weird people and I once said that by

369
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definition to become a DD being weird
is a requirement. [audience laughter]

370
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But why stop there. We can do more.


371
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: What include normal people?
[audience laughter]

372
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: Steady on. Lets not go there
[audience]: How do you define normal again?

373
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[audience]:Standing up straight

374
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: one thing, I've just been 
clicking around on the Debian website

375
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and basically there's only one image there
and that's the Debian logo

376
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[audience]: That's on purpose
I don't say make it like Wouter's (?? 31:03) website

377
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But there is some room I think for more, 
it doesn't have to be stock photo.

378
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: Well on the Ubuntu website 
we have a lot of group photos from

379
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
conferences.
[audience]: Could we put a picture from

380
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
DebConf. We are people like Debian
[audience]: It's very impersonal though

381
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and of course it's nice for big building 
times.

382
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Facilitator: What about a few selected 
biographies with pictures and people

383
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
saying what Debian means to them
and getting as a wide a selection of

384
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
people as possible?
[audience]: How about 'We are Debian' and

385
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
literally small bits and pieces. You've 
seen quite a lot of the advertising

386
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
campaigns the bios don't necessarily
need to put stuff behind but a photo,

387
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
random photo of every DD if they're
happy to have it on the front page.

388
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Picked at random photo show the 
diversity we've got so yes we're possibly

389
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
going to need to positively bias this. 
But show the diversity and by showing

390
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what little diversity we've got but 
stressing it more frequently we're making

391
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a safe, safe is the wrong word, a place
where people are comfortable to be

392
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themselves. [audience]: welcoming?
Yes, welcoming.

393
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And put that front and centre. 
Ultimately I would hope that

394
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
most of us in this room would say
that we try to leave our prejudice

395
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at the door. I think most of us are
happy to recognise that we have

396
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
prejudice and have it called out on us
when we cross a line.

397
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And unless everybody else is prepared
to do the same to us then we can't be

398
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welcoming to anybody else because
we're not creating an environment

399
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where other people feel happy and 
safe in the first place.

400
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[Facilitator]: And of course a lot of bias
is unconscious.

401
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: Very much unconscious and
that's what we've got to overcome

402
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so we've got to actively overcome it.

403
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Would anybody here genuinely be upset 
if we put their photos on the front page?

404
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: see also collabora.com
[audience]: well quite. Modulo (??33.39) scaring

405
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people away with my ugly face [audience 
laughter] but I've been doing that for

406
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years and it doesn't seem to have 
had a major problem.

407
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[Facilitator]: David
Sorry I need to get my thoughts back

408
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So you were saying something along
the lines of unconscious biases and

409
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
wanting to see that corrected. I have
certainly discovered that I've been

410
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
exhibiting this myself in the past and 
people have told me that this was a

411
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
thing and I've gone 'oh my god I'm so
sorry'. Being able to do that in a public

412
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
forum and to be able to be able to 
set a good example as to what good

413
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
behaviour looks like I think might also
have some value. I think there're lots

414
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of people who are trying to do this
already. I don't know if there's

415
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
anything that could be 
added there as well.

416
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: meeting in real life really
does help.

417
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: Massively 
[audience]: Yes absolutely

418
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[Facilitator]: Steve
So I've heard quite a number of good ideas

419
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a lot of which are going to need some
technical work to make them happen.

420
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There is a next obvious question:
Who want's to help?

421
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: Lots of voices saying "Me"

422
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: we should take a picture of 
the DPL and put a face on the front page

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with a quote, right, that's an action item
[audience]: It's a start

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[audience]: and to say we are a social 
project. Yes we have an operating system

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but we have a social project as well.
[audience]: absolutely, we've already

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suggested several improvements we 
could make to our website and various

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other things. A lot of the problems that
we have in those areas are not that

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people don't agree with those ideas, it's 
just finite effort. And we have a limited

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number of people who've been able to 
find the time to do what is already

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necessary and what we 
know is needed technically.

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Again, we will need more help 
to do this kind of thing.

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[audience]: I would object to raising the
DPL as the one person to stick on the

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front page. Please don't do that. Because 
there are more people in Debian.

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[audience]: And will never apply to be 
DPL ever again. [audience]: yeah, yeah

435
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[audience]: So if people want to help 
with this and actually get involved

436
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
technically to do it, that doesn't mean 
editing wml but it will mean writing

437
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content. It will mean getting some 
stuff done. We can go forward with that

438
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we can make it happen. But it is 
going to need some effort.

439
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: I'll volunteer to write wml
if someone decides that needs writing

440
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[audience]: Ditto, I will do that for 
people if they need it.

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[facilitator]: I'm happy to produce 
content as you're probably well aware.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: There's nothing in the Social 
Contract about diversity.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[Facilitator]: That's an interesting point


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[audience]: There doesn't have to be.

445
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[audience]: There isn't we did make, we
had a public vote, and we made a

446
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diversity statement a few years ago. 
We have made a very loud public statement

447
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about the values of the project. In a 
similar fashion to what we did with

448
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the Social Contract. Do you think it 
would help if there was something

449
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about that in a modified Social Contract?

450
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: Yes, because then it would be
obviously central.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: At least part of the 
statement in the DFSG about not

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discriminating in software against
anybody.

453
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: Yeah, I'm not sure that that 
would help given the rows there've been

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over the Social Contract before.
In all seriousness we promote Debian

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as the universal operating system.
We promote it as something for everybody.

456
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Rather than putting it into our technical 
documentation we're better to live it.

457
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Put it on the website, explain it. Live 
it in conferences like this.

458
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I don't think we need to add it to every 
piece of technical documentation

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provided we can live the culture.
[audience]: Is the Social Contract a piece

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of technical documentation? That's kind of
interesting.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: If you want to push that 
you have my vote but I don't think

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it's important.

463
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: something that might help is 
showing these things not modifying them

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but showing them on the same page. The
DFSG is appended to the Social Contract.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Have the diversity statement there and 
anything else that's relevant and

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you can find them in one place.

467
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[Facilitator]: Right we need to wrap
this up in the next few minutes.

468
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So has anyone else got any points 
they want to raise at this point?

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: Please make sure that the 
points that have been raised are in the

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Gobby doc, we seem to have 
run out of steam there.

471
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: One last thing, sorry. 
It comes into Social stuff

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accessibility software, things like 
Dasher, things like anything you need

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to do when you're blind or you've only 
got one arm or that kind of stuff

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is at least as important in someways
as some of the other diversity stuff.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
As otherwise we will be excluding groups.

476
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[Facilitator]: yeah I think that's quite valid.

477
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience] I think that needs to be 
considered if we make any changes to

478
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the website. Because at the moment it's
lovely for screen readers. And don't take

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that away. If we make the website all
HTML5, JavaScript, CSS, Flash nonsense

480
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we're going to screw screen readers.
[audience]: no we can improve the website

481
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
whilst retaining it's current 
standard for accessibility.

482
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because the standard of accessibility 
for the Debian website is better

483
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
better than everything else 
out there. It's amazing.

484
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So there are constraints on what 
we can do, that's well known.

485
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Is Debian a universal operating system
or is it a global social project?

486
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
An experiment?
[audience]: Yes, both.

487
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: It does not state that.

488
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: So the first thing people 
look at is here's a load of technical

489
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
stuff about Debian. We have this many 
packages, here's how to download.

490
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There is nothing to say Debian is also 
a big diverse project you could join in.

491
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: It's a social project.
[audience]: Definitely

492
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[Facilitator]: Any other different 
opinions or things to raise before

493
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we run out of time? I think 
we've done this bit to death now.

494
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: Maybe one question with 
diversity. Do we want to reach or express

495
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that we are diverse to our users or our 
developers. Is there a priority between

496
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the 2? I think it would go from user 
to developer.

497
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[Facilitator]: Well it's a bit blurred 
anyway.

498
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: If we're a social project 
then everybody's included.

499
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And that includes the users, 
the developers because that's

500
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the point of a social group. 
It's a big huge social group.

501
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's a social network: 
I run Debian [laugh].

502
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[Facilitator]: Right I think 
we can wrap it up there.

503
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Thank you very very much
all of you for taking part.

504
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[audience]: Thank you for 
pushing this as well.

505
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[Facilitator]: Thank you
[audience]: Applause.