1 00:00:02,055 --> 00:00:05,385 Sometimes there are moments in a reporter's life 2 00:00:05,446 --> 00:00:06,666 that surprise you 3 00:00:06,748 --> 00:00:09,668 An interview with a living Nazi criminal 4 00:00:09,691 --> 00:00:10,851 for example. 5 00:00:11,459 --> 00:00:13,669 Whom we found under astonishing circumstances. 6 00:00:13,669 --> 00:00:16,029 My colleagues have been investigating 7 00:00:16,062 --> 00:00:17,652 the neo-nazi scene for years 8 00:00:17,663 --> 00:00:19,923 Who is always meeting in secret places 9 00:00:19,923 --> 00:00:22,393 Recently such a meeting took place again 10 00:00:22,393 --> 00:00:25,903 and one of the speakers was a former SS officer 11 00:00:25,911 --> 00:00:29,211 who is now 96 years old: Karl M. 12 00:00:29,236 --> 00:00:32,286 We didn't recognize his name at first 13 00:00:32,286 --> 00:00:36,286 but according to a court verdict, he's a war criminal 14 00:00:37,528 --> 00:00:40,958 who hasn't been in prison for a single day until now 15 00:00:40,958 --> 00:00:43,808 Also, we visited him and much to our surprise 16 00:00:43,808 --> 00:00:45,488 he not only opened his door to us 17 00:00:45,488 --> 00:00:47,618 but also gave us an interview. 18 00:00:47,655 --> 00:00:51,305 Robert Bohn, Julian Feldmann, Fabian Horst and André Reising. 19 00:00:53,419 --> 00:00:55,339 The French village of Ascq. 20 00:00:55,363 --> 00:00:57,313 Here on the train rails 21 00:00:57,313 --> 00:00:58,673 began 74 years ago 22 00:00:58,673 --> 00:01:01,233 a horrible crime of the Waffen-SS. 23 00:01:01,265 --> 00:01:05,015 German soldiers killed 86 innocent men. 24 00:01:05,023 --> 00:01:08,793 "The massacre from Ascq", is called here. 25 00:01:08,805 --> 00:01:12,605 Reneau de Bont (?) experienced it as a young girl. 26 00:01:12,617 --> 00:01:15,007 She was 10 years old at the time. 27 00:01:18,185 --> 00:01:21,195 Without the massacre I would have had a father. 28 00:01:21,234 --> 00:01:22,984 A complete different life. 29 00:01:25,354 --> 00:01:27,564 It has been proven for a long time 30 00:01:27,564 --> 00:01:29,614 that the criminals were all soldiers 31 00:01:29,614 --> 00:01:31,374 from the 12th SS-Tank division. 32 00:01:32,310 --> 00:01:34,740 And he is one of them. 33 00:01:34,820 --> 00:01:37,380 Karl M., junior squad leader. 34 00:01:37,429 --> 00:01:39,299 Back then 21 years old. 35 00:01:39,325 --> 00:01:43,325 Until now he hasn't been in prison because of the massacre. 36 00:01:44,145 --> 00:01:46,455 Today he lives here in Lower-Saxony. 37 00:01:46,472 --> 00:01:50,472 He hasn't publicly spoken about his time in the Waffen-SS until now. 38 00:01:50,825 --> 00:01:52,285 He talks to us. 39 00:01:52,317 --> 00:01:54,397 Karl M. is 96 years old 40 00:01:54,397 --> 00:01:57,277 He volunteered to join the SS 41 00:01:59,313 --> 00:02:01,063 - Do you regret everything? 42 00:02:01,078 --> 00:02:03,678 - No. Not at all. 43 00:02:03,702 --> 00:02:05,102 Not at all. 44 00:02:06,913 --> 00:02:08,853 Why would I regret anything? 45 00:02:08,865 --> 00:02:11,105 - Because many people lost their lives. 46 00:02:11,418 --> 00:02:14,258 - But many were also happy that we showed up! 47 00:02:14,258 --> 00:02:17,818 What crimes did we commit during the war? 48 00:02:17,931 --> 00:02:20,301 - The SS committed no crime? 49 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,170 - Not during the war. 50 00:02:22,191 --> 00:02:26,191 In 1944, Karl M. and his division were tranferred 51 00:02:29,105 --> 00:02:31,315 from Belgium to France. 52 00:02:31,446 --> 00:02:34,076 As the train was traveling through Ascq 53 00:02:34,076 --> 00:02:36,106 an incident happened 54 00:02:36,130 --> 00:02:39,200 French resistance fighters conducted an attack 55 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,400 on the train at the train station. 56 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,510 Inside were Karl M. and about 400 SS men. 57 00:02:45,550 --> 00:02:49,190 Three wagons derailed, but nobody was harmed. 58 00:02:49,987 --> 00:02:52,737 The SS men were determined for revenge. 59 00:02:55,838 --> 00:02:59,498 I was in the back of the train and it happened at the front. 60 00:02:59,498 --> 00:03:01,238 I reported to my boss. 61 00:03:01,241 --> 00:03:05,241 He told me to get a couple of men, get out and clean the street. 62 00:03:06,362 --> 00:03:07,832 - and what was that? 63 00:03:07,832 --> 00:03:11,032 - To clean the street, also, to search in the houses for 64 00:03:11,032 --> 00:03:13,832 young rebels that might be hiding and take them. 65 00:03:13,832 --> 00:03:16,142 Someone must have done the attack. 66 00:03:16,142 --> 00:03:19,782 Arrest all young men. There will be a guilty one among them. 67 00:03:19,782 --> 00:03:23,782 Karl M. with 100 SS men go throw the place and "clean it". 68 00:03:24,820 --> 00:03:26,980 It's all about deterrence, revenge. 69 00:03:26,980 --> 00:03:29,360 They wake up families. 70 00:03:30,790 --> 00:03:33,120 - All of a sudden there was noise. 71 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,410 I heard big, heavy boots going upstairs. 72 00:03:37,082 --> 00:03:39,212 and I thought up there in my bed: 73 00:03:39,212 --> 00:03:40,422 what is that? 74 00:03:40,603 --> 00:03:42,233 It was the Germans. 75 00:03:42,318 --> 00:03:46,318 They entered the bedroom with my two young brothers and me 76 00:03:47,652 --> 00:03:50,532 They pulled the blankets looking for a man 77 00:03:50,597 --> 00:03:52,597 then they went away 78 00:03:52,999 --> 00:03:56,999 They took my father, who told us he will come back. 79 00:04:00,272 --> 00:04:02,302 The men were gathered together 80 00:04:02,302 --> 00:04:04,482 when the revenge escalated. 81 00:04:04,488 --> 00:04:06,568 The Germans started shooting 82 00:04:06,568 --> 00:04:10,298 Today Karl M. claims this was because the unarmed French 83 00:04:10,298 --> 00:04:12,558 apparently tried to escape. 84 00:04:12,930 --> 00:04:16,930 - When I arrest them, they have to stay until the situation is resolved. 85 00:04:17,192 --> 00:04:20,732 If they want to run away is because they have a bad conscience 86 00:04:20,732 --> 00:04:23,972 and then as a guardian I have a reason to shoot. 87 00:04:23,972 --> 00:04:26,452 If I hit them it's bad luck. 88 00:04:27,067 --> 00:04:29,557 - Karl M. says he didn't shoot. 89 00:04:30,635 --> 00:04:33,285 - I didn't fire a single shot. 90 00:04:33,660 --> 00:04:36,510 I didn't fire a single shot. 91 00:04:36,660 --> 00:04:38,260 - You didn't fire a single shot? 92 00:04:38,260 --> 00:04:39,430 - I didn't fire a single shot. 93 00:04:39,430 --> 00:04:40,400 - You were simply there? 94 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:40,990 - Yes. 95 00:04:41,539 --> 00:04:45,099 - Just there as the furious SS men lost all constraints? 96 00:04:45,193 --> 00:04:47,943 86 men shot dead 97 00:04:47,943 --> 00:04:49,303 many injured 98 00:04:49,347 --> 00:04:53,017 at the train station, the parking lot, bodies lay everywhere. 99 00:04:53,926 --> 00:04:57,636 From at least one of the bodies the gold teeth were pulled out. 100 00:04:58,931 --> 00:05:05,051 There are proofs that the Waffen-SS in Ascq, France, executed 86 civilians 101 00:05:05,051 --> 00:05:11,611 as revenge for an attack on a transport train making a stop there. 102 00:05:13,313 --> 00:05:16,313 We are convinced that there are enough evidence 103 00:05:16,313 --> 00:05:18,983 that he participated in this action. 104 00:05:19,550 --> 00:05:23,550 At the end of the action is also the father of Reneau de Bont (?) dead. 105 00:05:26,635 --> 00:05:31,595 When I woked up, my mother told I had no papa anymore. 106 00:05:33,121 --> 00:05:36,101 They killed all the men. 107 00:05:36,643 --> 00:05:39,223 They thought that by killing them all 108 00:05:39,223 --> 00:05:43,223 they will also be killing the one who broke the train. 109 00:05:45,982 --> 00:05:49,982 The youngest victim was 15, the oldest 75 years old. 110 00:05:49,982 --> 00:05:51,622 All inocents. 111 00:05:51,622 --> 00:05:54,842 Among the victims was not a single resistance fighter. 112 00:05:56,042 --> 00:05:58,772 There was a meeting the next day 113 00:05:58,772 --> 00:05:59,722 at school 114 00:05:59,722 --> 00:06:02,802 everyone had to go there 115 00:06:02,802 --> 00:06:05,262 because the corpses were all laying there 116 00:06:05,262 --> 00:06:07,202 side by side 117 00:06:07,227 --> 00:06:10,097 and we had to identify them 118 00:06:12,035 --> 00:06:15,005 20,000 people attended the funeral of the 119 00:06:15,005 --> 00:06:17,675 victims of the Massacre of Ascq 120 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,560 In 1949 a French court sentenced Karl M. to death 121 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,560 for complicity in murdering 86 people. 122 00:06:30,510 --> 00:06:33,120 He was living in Germany at this time 123 00:06:33,148 --> 00:06:34,948 and wasn't extradited. 124 00:06:35,452 --> 00:06:39,452 At that time there were no extraditions, so it was never requested. 125 00:06:43,247 --> 00:06:45,317 - Nobody tried to extradite him? 126 00:06:45,317 --> 00:06:46,377 - No. 127 00:06:46,875 --> 00:06:49,545 Karl M. was never punished for his actions. 128 00:06:49,545 --> 00:06:52,785 He lives a quiet life and worked at the post office. 129 00:06:55,635 --> 00:06:59,635 In Ascq, a memorial remembers us about the massacre in 1944. 130 00:07:01,448 --> 00:07:04,468 For the families of the victims it's difficult to accept that 131 00:07:04,468 --> 00:07:07,008 the murderers from then remain unpunished. 132 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:10,930 They complained to the German authorities some years ago. 133 00:07:10,962 --> 00:07:13,322 We think about it almost every day. 134 00:07:13,322 --> 00:07:15,022 We cannot simply forget. 135 00:07:15,022 --> 00:07:17,962 We cannot forget what happened here. Impossible. 136 00:07:20,975 --> 00:07:24,695 As a matter of fact, now the German authorities are getting active. 137 00:07:24,695 --> 00:07:27,055 They found one of the criminals: Karl M. 138 00:07:27,059 --> 00:07:30,029 In 2015 an investigation against him was started. 139 00:07:30,036 --> 00:07:32,656 Due to suspicion of assistance to murder. 140 00:07:33,356 --> 00:07:36,486 Assistance to murder doesn't fall under the statue of limitations in Germany 141 00:07:36,555 --> 00:07:38,705 The investigators searched Karl M.'s house 142 00:07:39,025 --> 00:07:41,535 he doesn't understand what's all about. 143 00:07:42,186 --> 00:07:46,186 - Everything happened under very different laws back then. 144 00:07:47,321 --> 00:07:51,001 And now they're going by the laws they re-wrote 145 00:07:51,370 --> 00:07:53,680 and made to benefit them 146 00:07:54,246 --> 00:07:57,216 otherwise they wouldn't come here after 70 years 147 00:07:57,216 --> 00:07:59,666 and made a mess out of my home 148 00:07:59,666 --> 00:08:00,606 after 70 years. 149 00:08:00,678 --> 00:08:04,678 - According to him, the laws back then weren't just different, but also better 150 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,200 and the government too. 151 00:08:07,778 --> 00:08:10,738 Would you wish for someone like Hitler today? 152 00:08:12,060 --> 00:08:13,880 - Why not? 153 00:08:14,694 --> 00:08:16,804 He took good measures. 154 00:08:18,886 --> 00:08:21,736 and that with the Jews he's accused for 155 00:08:21,838 --> 00:08:24,418 - But he killed millions of people 156 00:08:24,463 --> 00:08:27,593 - with the "millions", you should be careful with that 157 00:08:27,674 --> 00:08:31,444 we didn't have that many Jews back then. 158 00:08:32,001 --> 00:08:34,961 This was already refuted, I read somewhere. 159 00:08:34,965 --> 00:08:38,965 This number, 6 million or whatever, is just not true. 160 00:08:46,958 --> 00:08:50,895 Last March the prosecution office dropped the investigation 161 00:08:50,895 --> 00:08:52,195 against Karl M. 162 00:08:52,195 --> 00:08:57,065 on insufferable grounds: nobody should be punished for a crime twice. 163 00:08:58,690 --> 00:09:04,480 Even though the sencente was never carried out in France, it's still on the paper. 164 00:09:05,587 --> 00:09:09,137 - Nobody can be prosecuted twice for the same crime. 165 00:09:09,137 --> 00:09:14,457 The accused was already sentenced to death in 1949 by a French military court 166 00:09:19,198 --> 00:09:22,648 this case cannot be resumed in France now 167 00:09:22,648 --> 00:09:26,648 because it falls under the statue of limitations there 168 00:09:27,051 --> 00:09:31,051 Germany is obligued to accept that due to European laws 169 00:09:31,190 --> 00:09:34,640 even though murder doesn't fall under the statue of limitations in Germany. 170 00:09:34,651 --> 00:09:38,624 Had he not been on trial in France, we would now start a process 171 00:09:38,624 --> 00:09:42,824 against him for complicity in the murder of 86 people 172 00:09:45,273 --> 00:09:49,273 In this way Karl M. eludes the justice for the second time. 173 00:09:50,048 --> 00:09:54,048 Due to the investigation he caught the attention of neo-nazis 174 00:09:55,109 --> 00:09:56,859 who make a hero out of him 175 00:09:56,859 --> 00:09:59,649 They gave him this album among other things 176 00:09:59,649 --> 00:10:03,649 - We thank you for your commitment to your people and your country. 177 00:10:05,254 --> 00:10:06,534 The German Youth. 178 00:10:10,570 --> 00:10:13,210 Then they invited him to be a speaker 179 00:10:13,210 --> 00:10:14,990 in Fretterode in Thuringia 180 00:10:14,990 --> 00:10:18,730 at the house of the well-known neo-nazi Torsten Heise 181 00:10:18,730 --> 00:10:21,150 The second in charge of the NPD 182 00:10:21,150 --> 00:10:24,680 invited him to a lecture by contemporary witnesses 183 00:10:25,736 --> 00:10:29,256 In the right scene the war criminal Karl M. is now celebrated. 184 00:10:29,256 --> 00:10:32,066 and he's even asked for autographs. 185 00:10:33,366 --> 00:10:36,216 - I signed this one like a hundred times 186 00:10:36,216 --> 00:10:40,216 Everyone wanted to have one. 187 00:10:41,341 --> 00:10:43,971 I wrote "Karl" here. 188 00:10:46,931 --> 00:10:48,791 - Everyone wanted an autograph? 189 00:10:48,834 --> 00:10:52,334 - Some people brought 4 of them to sign! 190 00:10:53,753 --> 00:10:56,373 - This cannot be. To have no remorse. 191 00:10:58,886 --> 00:10:59,916 No regrets. 192 00:11:00,052 --> 00:11:02,832 Sometimes you do a bad thing, but you then regret it. 193 00:11:02,881 --> 00:11:05,271 But he... doesn't regret anything. 194 00:11:05,271 --> 00:11:06,751 He would do it again. 195 00:11:06,851 --> 00:11:08,411 This cannot be true.