0:00:02.055,0:00:05.385 Sometimes there are moments in a reporter's life 0:00:05.446,0:00:06.666 that surprise you 0:00:06.748,0:00:09.668 An interview with a living Nazi criminal 0:00:09.691,0:00:10.851 for example. 0:00:11.459,0:00:13.669 Whom we found under astonishing circumstances. 0:00:13.669,0:00:16.029 My colleagues have been investigating 0:00:16.062,0:00:17.652 the neo-nazi scene for years 0:00:17.663,0:00:19.923 Who is always meeting in secret places 0:00:19.923,0:00:22.393 Recently such a meeting took place again 0:00:22.393,0:00:25.903 and one of the speakers was a former SS officer 0:00:25.911,0:00:29.211 who is now 96 years old: Karl M. 0:00:29.236,0:00:32.286 We didn't recognize his name at first 0:00:32.286,0:00:36.286 but according to a court verdict, he's a war criminal 0:00:37.528,0:00:40.958 who hasn't been in prison for a single day until now 0:00:40.958,0:00:43.808 Also, we visited him and much to our surprise 0:00:43.808,0:00:45.488 he not only opened his door to us 0:00:45.488,0:00:47.618 but also gave us an interview. 0:00:47.655,0:00:51.305 Robert Bohn, Julian Feldmann, Fabian Horst and André Reising. 0:00:53.419,0:00:55.339 The French village of Ascq. 0:00:55.363,0:00:57.313 Here on the train rails 0:00:57.313,0:00:58.673 began 74 years ago 0:00:58.673,0:01:01.233 a horrible crime of the Waffen-SS. 0:01:01.265,0:01:05.015 German soldiers killed 86 innocent men. 0:01:05.023,0:01:08.793 "The massacre from Ascq", is called here. 0:01:08.805,0:01:12.605 Reneau de Bont (?) experienced it as a young girl. 0:01:12.617,0:01:15.007 She was 10 years old at the time. 0:01:18.185,0:01:21.195 Without the massacre I would have had a father. 0:01:21.234,0:01:22.984 A complete different life. 0:01:25.354,0:01:27.564 It has been proven for a long time 0:01:27.564,0:01:29.614 that the criminals were all soldiers 0:01:29.614,0:01:31.374 from the 12th SS-Tank division. 0:01:32.310,0:01:34.740 And he is one of them. 0:01:34.820,0:01:37.380 Karl M., junior squad leader. 0:01:37.429,0:01:39.299 Back then 21 years old. 0:01:39.325,0:01:43.325 Until now he hasn't been in prison because of the massacre. 0:01:44.145,0:01:46.455 Today he lives here in Lower-Saxony. 0:01:46.472,0:01:50.472 He hasn't publicly spoken about his time in the Waffen-SS until now. 0:01:50.825,0:01:52.285 He talks to us. 0:01:52.317,0:01:54.397 Karl M. is 96 years old 0:01:54.397,0:01:57.277 He volunteered to join the SS 0:01:59.313,0:02:01.063 - Do you regret everything? 0:02:01.078,0:02:03.678 - No. Not at all. 0:02:03.702,0:02:05.102 Not at all. 0:02:06.913,0:02:08.853 Why would I regret anything? 0:02:08.865,0:02:11.105 - Because many people lost their lives. 0:02:11.418,0:02:14.258 - But many were also happy that we showed up! 0:02:14.258,0:02:17.818 What crimes did we commit during the war? 0:02:17.931,0:02:20.301 - The SS committed no crime? 0:02:20.360,0:02:22.170 - Not during the war. 0:02:22.191,0:02:26.191 In 1944, Karl M. and his division were tranferred 0:02:29.105,0:02:31.315 from Belgium to France. 0:02:31.446,0:02:34.076 As the train was traveling through Ascq 0:02:34.076,0:02:36.106 an incident happened 0:02:36.130,0:02:39.200 French resistance fighters conducted an attack 0:02:39.240,0:02:41.400 on the train at the train station. 0:02:42.040,0:02:45.510 Inside were Karl M. and about 400 SS men. 0:02:45.550,0:02:49.190 Three wagons derailed, but nobody was harmed. 0:02:49.987,0:02:52.737 The SS men were determined for revenge. 0:02:55.838,0:02:59.498 I was in the back of the train and it happened at the front. 0:02:59.498,0:03:01.238 I reported to my boss. 0:03:01.241,0:03:05.241 He told me to get a couple of men, get out and clean the street. 0:03:06.362,0:03:07.832 - and what was that? 0:03:07.832,0:03:11.032 - To clean the street, also, to search in the houses for 0:03:11.032,0:03:13.832 young rebels that might be hiding and take them. 0:03:13.832,0:03:16.142 Someone must have done the attack. 0:03:16.142,0:03:19.782 Arrest all young men. There will be a guilty one among them. 0:03:19.782,0:03:23.782 Karl M. with 100 SS men go throw the place and "clean it". 0:03:24.820,0:03:26.980 It's all about deterrence, revenge. 0:03:26.980,0:03:29.360 They wake up families. 0:03:30.790,0:03:33.120 - All of a sudden there was noise. 0:03:33.120,0:03:36.410 I heard big, heavy boots going upstairs. 0:03:37.082,0:03:39.212 and I thought up there in my bed: 0:03:39.212,0:03:40.422 what is that? 0:03:40.603,0:03:42.233 It was the Germans. 0:03:42.318,0:03:46.318 They entered the bedroom with my two young brothers and me 0:03:47.652,0:03:50.532 They pulled the blankets looking for a man 0:03:50.597,0:03:52.597 then they went away 0:03:52.999,0:03:56.999 They took my father, who told us he will come back. 0:04:00.272,0:04:02.302 The men were gathered together 0:04:02.302,0:04:04.482 when the revenge escalated. 0:04:04.488,0:04:06.568 The Germans started shooting 0:04:06.568,0:04:10.298 Today Karl M. claims this was because the unarmed French 0:04:10.298,0:04:12.558 apparently tried to escape. 0:04:12.930,0:04:16.930 - When I arrest them, they have to stay until the situation is resolved. 0:04:17.192,0:04:20.732 If they want to run away is because they have a bad conscience 0:04:20.732,0:04:23.972 and then as a guardian I have a reason to shoot. 0:04:23.972,0:04:26.452 If I hit them it's bad luck. 0:04:27.067,0:04:29.557 - Karl M. says he didn't shoot. 0:04:30.635,0:04:33.285 - I didn't fire a single shot. 0:04:33.660,0:04:36.510 I didn't fire a single shot. 0:04:36.660,0:04:38.260 - You didn't fire a single shot? 0:04:38.260,0:04:39.430 - I didn't fire a single shot. 0:04:39.430,0:04:40.400 - You were simply there? 0:04:40.400,0:04:40.990 - Yes. 0:04:41.539,0:04:45.099 - Just there as the furious SS men lost all constraints? 0:04:45.193,0:04:47.943 86 men shot dead 0:04:47.943,0:04:49.303 many injured 0:04:49.347,0:04:53.017 at the train station, the parking lot, bodies lay everywhere. 0:04:53.926,0:04:57.636 From at least one of the bodies the gold teeth were pulled out. 0:04:58.931,0:05:05.051 There are proofs that the Waffen-SS in Ascq, France, executed 86 civilians 0:05:05.051,0:05:11.611 as revenge for an attack on a transport train making a stop there. 0:05:13.313,0:05:16.313 We are convinced that there are enough evidence 0:05:16.313,0:05:18.983 that he participated in this action. 0:05:19.550,0:05:23.550 At the end of the action is also the father of Reneau de Bont (?) dead. 0:05:26.635,0:05:31.595 When I woked up, my mother told I had no papa anymore. 0:05:33.121,0:05:36.101 They killed all the men. 0:05:36.643,0:05:39.223 They thought that by killing them all 0:05:39.223,0:05:43.223 they will also be killing the one who broke the train. 0:05:45.982,0:05:49.982 The youngest victim was 15, the oldest 75 years old. 0:05:49.982,0:05:51.622 All inocents. 0:05:51.622,0:05:54.842 Among the victims was not a single resistance fighter. 0:05:56.042,0:05:58.772 There was a meeting the next day 0:05:58.772,0:05:59.722 at school 0:05:59.722,0:06:02.802 everyone had to go there 0:06:02.802,0:06:05.262 because the corpses were all laying there 0:06:05.262,0:06:07.202 side by side 0:06:07.227,0:06:10.097 and we had to identify them 0:06:12.035,0:06:15.005 20,000 people attended the funeral of the 0:06:15.005,0:06:17.675 victims of the Massacre of Ascq 0:06:19.560,0:06:23.560 In 1949 a French court sentenced Karl M. to death 0:06:23.560,0:06:27.560 for complicity in murdering 86 people. 0:06:30.510,0:06:33.120 He was living in Germany at this time 0:06:33.148,0:06:34.948 and wasn't extradited. 0:06:35.452,0:06:39.452 At that time there were no extraditions, so it was never requested. 0:06:43.247,0:06:45.317 - Nobody tried to extradite him? 0:06:45.317,0:06:46.377 - No. 0:06:46.875,0:06:49.545 Karl M. was never punished for his actions. 0:06:49.545,0:06:52.785 He lives a quiet life and worked at the post office. 0:06:55.635,0:06:59.635 In Ascq, a memorial remembers us about the massacre in 1944. 0:07:01.448,0:07:04.468 For the families of the victims it's difficult to accept that 0:07:04.468,0:07:07.008 the murderers from then remain unpunished. 0:07:08.100,0:07:10.930 They complained to the German authorities some years ago. 0:07:10.962,0:07:13.322 We think about it almost every day. 0:07:13.322,0:07:15.022 We cannot simply forget. 0:07:15.022,0:07:17.962 We cannot forget what happened here. Impossible. 0:07:20.975,0:07:24.695 As a matter of fact, now the German authorities are getting active. 0:07:24.695,0:07:27.055 They found one of the criminals: Karl M. 0:07:27.059,0:07:30.029 In 2015 an investigation against him was started. 0:07:30.036,0:07:32.656 Due to suspicion of assistance to murder. 0:07:33.356,0:07:36.486 Assistance to murder doesn't fall under the statue of limitations in Germany 0:07:36.555,0:07:38.705 The investigators searched Karl M.'s house 0:07:39.025,0:07:41.535 he doesn't understand what's all about. 0:07:42.186,0:07:46.186 - Everything happened under very different laws back then. 0:07:47.321,0:07:51.001 And now they're going by the laws they re-wrote 0:07:51.370,0:07:53.680 and made to benefit them 0:07:54.246,0:07:57.216 otherwise they wouldn't come here after 70 years 0:07:57.216,0:07:59.666 and made a mess out of my home 0:07:59.666,0:08:00.606 after 70 years. 0:08:00.678,0:08:04.678 - According to him, the laws back then weren't just different, but also better 0:08:05.240,0:08:07.200 and the government too. 0:08:07.778,0:08:10.738 Would you wish for someone like Hitler today? 0:08:12.060,0:08:13.880 - Why not? 0:08:14.694,0:08:16.804 He took good measures. 0:08:18.886,0:08:21.736 and that with the Jews he's accused for 0:08:21.838,0:08:24.418 - But he killed millions of people 0:08:24.463,0:08:27.593 - with the "millions", you should be careful with that 0:08:27.674,0:08:31.444 we didn't have that many Jews back then. 0:08:32.001,0:08:34.961 This was already refuted, I read somewhere. 0:08:34.965,0:08:38.965 This number, 6 million or whatever, is just not true. 0:08:46.958,0:08:50.895 Last March the prosecution office dropped the investigation 0:08:50.895,0:08:52.195 against Karl M. 0:08:52.195,0:08:57.065 on insufferable grounds: nobody should be punished for a crime twice. 0:08:58.690,0:09:04.480 Even though the sencente was never carried out in France, it's still on the paper. 0:09:05.587,0:09:09.137 - Nobody can be prosecuted twice for the same crime. 0:09:09.137,0:09:14.457 The accused was already sentenced to death in 1949 by a French military court 0:09:19.198,0:09:22.648 this case cannot be resumed in France now 0:09:22.648,0:09:26.648 because it falls under the statue of limitations there 0:09:27.051,0:09:31.051 Germany is obligued to accept that due to European laws 0:09:31.190,0:09:34.640 even though murder doesn't fall under the statue of limitations in Germany. 0:09:34.651,0:09:38.624 Had he not been on trial in France, we would now start a process 0:09:38.624,0:09:42.824 against him for complicity in the murder of 86 people 0:09:45.273,0:09:49.273 In this way Karl M. eludes the justice for the second time. 0:09:50.048,0:09:54.048 Due to the investigation he caught the attention of neo-nazis 0:09:55.109,0:09:56.859 who make a hero out of him 0:09:56.859,0:09:59.649 They gave him this album among other things 0:09:59.649,0:10:03.649 - We thank you for your commitment to your people and your country. 0:10:05.254,0:10:06.534 The German Youth. 0:10:10.570,0:10:13.210 Then they invited him to be a speaker 0:10:13.210,0:10:14.990 in Fretterode in Thuringia 0:10:14.990,0:10:18.730 at the house of the well-known neo-nazi Torsten Heise 0:10:18.730,0:10:21.150 The second in charge of the NPD 0:10:21.150,0:10:24.680 invited him to a lecture by contemporary witnesses 0:10:25.736,0:10:29.256 In the right scene the war criminal Karl M. is now celebrated. 0:10:29.256,0:10:32.066 and he's even asked for autographs. 0:10:33.366,0:10:36.216 - I signed this one like a hundred times 0:10:36.216,0:10:40.216 Everyone wanted to have one. 0:10:41.341,0:10:43.971 I wrote "Karl" here. 0:10:46.931,0:10:48.791 - Everyone wanted an autograph? 0:10:48.834,0:10:52.334 - Some people brought 4 of them to sign! 0:10:53.753,0:10:56.373 - This cannot be. To have no remorse. 0:10:58.886,0:10:59.916 No regrets. 0:11:00.052,0:11:02.832 Sometimes you do a bad thing, but you then regret it. 0:11:02.881,0:11:05.271 But he... doesn't regret anything. 0:11:05.271,0:11:06.751 He would do it again. 0:11:06.851,0:11:08.411 This cannot be true.