WEBVTT 00:00:00.565 --> 00:00:20.512 (music) 00:00:20.956 --> 00:00:23.628 My name is Nikoli, a.k.a. Socrates 00:00:23.628 --> 00:00:26.389 and you are watching Singularity One On One 00:00:26.579 --> 00:00:29.069 If you guys enjoy this show you can help me make it better 00:00:29.196 --> 00:00:32.316 in two ways. Number one is you can write 00:00:32.369 --> 00:00:34.949 a review on ITunes. Or number two, you can 00:00:35.069 --> 00:00:37.822 simply make a donation. Today, my guest 00:00:37.822 --> 00:00:41.460 on the show is Robert Steele. Robert Steele 00:00:41.460 --> 00:00:45.112 is not only the author of Open Source Everything Manifesto, 00:00:45.112 --> 00:00:50.024 but he's also a former spy, and CIA intelligence professional, 00:00:50.152 --> 00:00:53.873 Marine Corps infantry officer, honorary hacker, 00:00:53.873 --> 00:00:56.600 past presidential candidate and a top 00:00:56.648 --> 00:00:59.473 Amazon reviewer devoted to non fiction 00:01:00.121 --> 00:01:05.914 in 98 categories, who has done more than 1700 book reviews. 00:01:05.957 --> 00:01:09.767 So, Hi Robert. Thanks very much for joining us tonight. 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:12.085 Oh, it's a pleasure to be with you. 00:01:12.138 --> 00:01:16.405 Fantastic. So Robert, I introduced you 00:01:16.440 --> 00:01:19.760 in kind of a very impressive paragraph 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:22.687 but, if I were to ask you to put yourself 00:01:22.761 --> 00:01:24.705 in a sentence or two, how would you best do 00:01:24.705 --> 00:01:25.785 that yourself? 00:01:27.087 --> 00:01:31.119 Lived all over the world, had a great 00:01:31.119 --> 00:01:34.807 many experiences and I am just stunned that 00:01:34.807 --> 00:01:37.277 as a human race, we are not doing better. 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:42.352 Ah, interesting. We are not doing better. 00:01:42.646 --> 00:01:47.855 So, let me ask you then, would you say that 00:01:47.855 --> 00:01:50.807 in your view, we are making progress 00:01:50.807 --> 00:01:53.280 or are we making regress? Are we going 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:55.284 forward or backwards? 00:01:55.284 --> 00:01:59.349 You know, the answer is always some of each. 00:02:00.750 --> 00:02:03.976 We have certainly made progress in poverty 00:02:04.320 --> 00:02:07.006 and infectious disease and a few other areas, 00:02:07.086 --> 00:02:09.700 but we have also managed to destroy the world 00:02:09.700 --> 00:02:12.119 in the last fifteen years. We've gone from 00:02:12.119 --> 00:02:17.319 25 failed states to 175 failed states. The policies 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:19.994 of the U.S. neo conservative government 00:02:19.994 --> 00:02:23.354 not just under the Bush/Cheney administration 00:02:23.354 --> 00:02:25.891 but, under Obama/Biden have essentially 00:02:25.891 --> 00:02:30.357 destabilized the world. Europe is suffering 00:02:30.357 --> 00:02:33.600 a two million illegal immigrants and I predicted 00:02:33.600 --> 00:02:35.996 this in my second book in 2002. 00:02:36.210 --> 00:02:38.833 I basically said, if you don't take care of 00:02:38.833 --> 00:02:41.200 the poor, the poor will come to you. 00:02:41.324 --> 00:02:43.278 This is fascinating, and there's so many 00:02:43.278 --> 00:02:45.309 things I want to grab, so, I don't even know 00:02:45.309 --> 00:02:47.548 which one to get first, but...Let me ask 00:02:47.657 --> 00:02:51.722 you this. You said, 175 failed states, can you 00:02:51.722 --> 00:02:54.880 please give us; elaborate on this more because... 00:02:54.880 --> 00:02:57.388 Well, I don't have the graphic in front of me, 00:02:57.388 --> 00:02:59.040 but if you look it up, just look up the 00:02:59.265 --> 00:03:02.014 number of failed states. My point is, that 00:03:02.014 --> 00:03:04.080 the United States government has chosen to 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:07.700 be the best friend of dictators, rather 00:03:07.700 --> 00:03:10.953 than a champion of democracy. And, so for 00:03:10.953 --> 00:03:15.114 example, in Saudi Arabia, which has an unemployment rate of 29 percent 00:03:15.114 --> 00:03:20.094 among its young, we have chosen to allow 00:03:20.094 --> 00:03:23.303 Saudi Arabia to export terrorism in the form of 00:03:23.303 --> 00:03:26.862 wahabbism. We've asked Saudi Arabia to 00:03:26.862 --> 00:03:31.060 create ISIS as a way of bringing down Syria 00:03:31.060 --> 00:03:34.275 which is a totally unnecessary destabilization effort. 00:03:34.275 --> 00:03:36.629 And, we are just generally allowing some 00:03:36.629 --> 00:03:39.589 very bad things to happen. For example in 00:03:39.880 --> 00:03:43.770 the Ukraine, we supported a neo Nazi fascist takeover. 00:03:45.393 --> 00:03:48.034 And, the division of the country. We supported 00:03:48.034 --> 00:03:51.313 a number of color revolutions all inherently 00:03:51.313 --> 00:03:55.140 aimed at Russia, rather than at improving 00:03:55.140 --> 00:03:57.589 the lives of the people in those countries. 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:00.320 Wow, you are already blowing my mind 00:04:00.320 --> 00:04:02.400 here in the first couple of minutes, 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:04.970 so let me grab just one point. You said, 00:04:04.970 --> 00:04:09.714 Saudi Arabia created ISIS. Can you elaborate on that? 00:04:09.714 --> 00:04:15.080 If you look up online, who created ISIS, you'll 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:17.400 find out that ISIS was in fact created 00:04:17.400 --> 00:04:19.868 out of the Libyan intervention, which was 00:04:19.868 --> 00:04:23.498 started by the French, but exaggerated by the Americans 00:04:24.283 --> 00:04:29.626 and CIA wanted to create a form of jihadist force 00:04:29.626 --> 00:04:33.121 such as they created for Afghanistan and their 00:04:33.121 --> 00:04:37.701 focus was on destabilizing and ultimately kicking Assad out of power 00:04:37.701 --> 00:04:40.361 Assad has long been a Soviet client. 00:04:40.361 --> 00:04:42.792 Some people call him a Soviet agent. 00:04:42.792 --> 00:04:45.648 I personally think he's simply 00:04:45.648 --> 00:04:48.207 the guy in charge of the country and we have no 00:04:48.207 --> 00:04:50.630 business trying to kick him out of office. 00:04:50.630 --> 00:04:53.667 I am totally opposed to the American 00:04:53.667 --> 00:04:57.298 penchant for regime change. It should not 00:04:57.298 --> 00:04:59.989 be our business to change regimes. It should 00:04:59.989 --> 00:05:02.573 be our business to foster peace and prosperity. 00:05:02.966 --> 00:05:05.573 So, okay, as a former political science 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:10.061 student myself, those are all very interesting 00:05:10.061 --> 00:05:13.462 and very deep and profound and important, 00:05:13.462 --> 00:05:19.326 vitally important topics, but, I'm going to actually have to pass on on that 00:05:19.326 --> 00:05:22.188 and move on to the topic that I would like 00:05:22.188 --> 00:05:26.271 to focus on today, which is, kind of, in a way, maybe 00:05:26.271 --> 00:05:30.423 arguably more important than these particularities 00:05:30.423 --> 00:05:34.337 so, let me ask you this, what is the 00:05:34.337 --> 00:05:36.960 Open Source Everything Manifesto about? 00:05:38.378 --> 00:05:42.631 Well, one of the things, I started the open source intelligence revolution 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:46.561 in the 1980's and as a spy I realized 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:49.319 one day how little we knew, because we were 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:53.468 focusing only on stealing secrets and so, I did an 00:05:53.468 --> 00:05:56.697 inventory of what could be known using 00:05:56.881 --> 00:06:00.400 open. legal, ethical methods and it turned 00:06:00.400 --> 00:06:02.720 out that the U.S. government, because it relies 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:05.288 only on secrets, is working with roughly 00:06:05.288 --> 00:06:08.066 2 percent of the available information. 00:06:08.066 --> 00:06:12.511 It hasn't put into place a vehicle for actually 00:06:12.583 --> 00:06:16.761 reaching out in 183 languages to collect 00:06:16.761 --> 00:06:20.027 local knowledge and expert wisdom in languages 00:06:20.027 --> 00:06:22.666 we don't speak from people we don't talk to. 00:06:22.666 --> 00:06:25.560 And, so I created the open source intelligence 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:27.718 revolution and my soundbite at the time was 00:06:27.718 --> 00:06:30.008 "Do not send a spy where a school boy can go." 00:06:31.018 --> 00:06:33.856 Then I discovered the open source software 00:06:33.856 --> 00:06:37.141 and open source hardware revolutions led by 00:06:37.141 --> 00:06:45.270 among others The Free Software guy, ...(Richard Stallman)... Yes, exactly, RMS, 00:06:45.270 --> 00:06:49.954 whom I admire very much. After looking at 00:06:49.954 --> 00:06:52.360 open source software and open source hardware 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:54.741 I realized that they really weren't worth much 00:06:54.741 --> 00:06:58.515 unless they also had open access, open data and 00:06:58.515 --> 00:07:01.720 open spectrum and so then I started to 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:06.360 create a typology of opens. And, in 2007 I was 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:09.224 invited to be the key note speaker at Gnomedex 00:07:09.224 --> 00:07:13.982 in Seattle and so I did a briefing on open source everything 00:07:13.982 --> 00:07:17.581 and I identified about 30 opens. Then around 00:07:17.581 --> 00:07:23.844 2011 I decided to write the book, The Open Source Everything Manifesto 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:27.471 and I was able to list about 60 opens. 00:07:27.471 --> 00:07:30.664 Then after I published the book and got some attention, 00:07:30.664 --> 00:07:33.801 the Guardian did a profile of me in 2014 00:07:33.801 --> 00:07:38.228 by Nafeez Ahmed, then I realized that the opens 00:07:38.228 --> 00:07:42.000 were chaotic. They were an arhcipelago. 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:44.361 They were not talking to each other. They 00:07:44.361 --> 00:07:46.339 weren't collaborating with each other. 00:07:46.339 --> 00:07:48.800 So, I worked with Michel Bauwens from the 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:51.652 Peer to Peer (P2P) Foundation and Marcin Jacobowski 00:07:51.652 --> 00:07:54.961 from Open Source Ecology and we created a 00:07:54.961 --> 00:08:00.439 construct of 9 core opens and within those 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:04.658 9 core opens, we picked 3 sub-opens for each 00:08:04.658 --> 00:08:09.675 and our hope is that eventually we get all 00:08:09.675 --> 00:08:13.358 of the opens to work together and create 00:08:13.358 --> 00:08:16.566 smart cities that are not just on broadband 00:08:16.566 --> 00:08:19.445 but, smart cities that eliminate all waste. 00:08:19.445 --> 00:08:23.384 Mellissa Sterry is one of the wonderful people that 00:08:23.384 --> 00:08:26.600 I listen to and pay attention to. She talks about 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:29.075 a bionic city and what would a city look like 00:08:29.075 --> 00:08:31.864 if nature designed it? If nature designed 00:08:31.864 --> 00:08:34.627 a city, it would have no fraud, waste or abuse. 00:08:34.627 --> 00:08:39.002 It would have no agricultural waste, it 00:08:39.002 --> 00:08:41.431 would have no energy waste. It would have 00:08:41.431 --> 00:08:44.438 no waste of materials, housing and office 00:08:44.438 --> 00:08:47.651 construction. It would have no wasted water. 00:08:47.651 --> 00:08:52.504 We have systems, even if India builds 00:08:52.504 --> 00:08:54.493 smart cities, they are about to builds 20 00:08:54.493 --> 00:08:55.973 smart cities and they are making a huge 00:08:55.973 --> 00:08:59.161 mistake, because they're defining their 00:08:59.161 --> 00:09:02.596 smart city as solely and exclusively centered 00:09:02.596 --> 00:09:06.093 on having broadband access. That's not a 00:09:06.093 --> 00:09:09.461 smart city. That's a dumb city with access. 00:09:09.461 --> 00:09:13.400 I have to agree with that part on India 00:09:13.400 --> 00:09:15.601 and what smart city entails would be 00:09:15.601 --> 00:09:18.114 much broader and bigger and deeper and 00:09:18.114 --> 00:09:21.257 more profound then just broadband, but let 00:09:21.257 --> 00:09:23.566 me push a little bit back on what you said, 00:09:23.566 --> 00:09:26.629 "If nature designed a city, we'd have no fraud, 00:09:26.629 --> 00:09:29.509 waste or abuse." I mean when I look at 00:09:29.509 --> 00:09:33.000 nature, I see what Thomas Hobbs called 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:36.136 life being nasty, brutish and short and 00:09:36.136 --> 00:09:40.046 often violent, so we have usually the 00:09:40.046 --> 00:09:44.475 stronger killing the weak and old being 00:09:44.475 --> 00:09:47.993 killed by the young, etc... etc... So, in 00:09:47.993 --> 00:09:50.679 a way, maybe you could say that there is 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:52.822 no waste in nature because everything is 00:09:52.822 --> 00:09:56.233 being recycled and reused but, I certainly 00:09:56.233 --> 00:09:58.962 would say that it doesn't lack any abuse 00:09:58.962 --> 00:10:03.448 or suffering or violence, but actually all 00:10:03.448 --> 00:10:05.657 of those are abundant in my view. 00:10:05.657 --> 00:10:07.865 Well, I take a more positive view and what 00:10:07.865 --> 00:10:10.042 I am really thinking about in relation to 00:10:10.042 --> 00:10:12.721 nature is energy and entropy. I'm not 00:10:12.721 --> 00:10:15.399 thinking about the violence. You are 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:17.379 absolutely correct, but the bottom line 00:10:17.379 --> 00:10:20.880 for me, is that we design things that are 00:10:20.880 --> 00:10:23.948 very, very wasteful. For example, London 00:10:23.948 --> 00:10:26.672 right now, is trying to create a smart city 00:10:26.672 --> 00:10:30.390 and an internet of things and they're doing 00:10:30.390 --> 00:10:32.933 absolutely nothing to get rid of all those 00:10:32.933 --> 00:10:35.956 ugly highways. They are doing nothing to 00:10:35.956 --> 00:10:38.541 reduce their dependence on petrol driven 00:10:38.541 --> 00:10:40.959 vehicles. They are doing nothing to create 00:10:40.959 --> 00:10:43.835 bicycle and pedestrian access. So, that's 00:10:43.835 --> 00:10:47.012 not a smart city at all. That's a city, and 00:10:47.012 --> 00:10:49.081 this is IBM's problem, that's a city in 00:10:49.081 --> 00:10:52.219 which you are retro fitting gee-whiz 00:10:52.219 --> 00:10:55.760 technologies for communications to really 00:10:55.760 --> 00:10:58.779 absurd, wasteful, legacy, industrial era 00:10:58.779 --> 00:11:02.281 artifacts. A smart city would actually be 00:11:02.281 --> 00:11:05.920 a small city. It would be a city in which 00:11:05.920 --> 00:11:07.821 agriculture would be integrated into every 00:11:07.821 --> 00:11:10.517 neighborhood. it would be a city that you 00:11:10.517 --> 00:11:12.960 could walk to work. It would be a city in 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:16.381 which all of the jobs were actually worth 00:11:16.381 --> 00:11:19.217 doing. It would be the city in which the 00:11:19.217 --> 00:11:21.760 arts and humanities would be present on 00:11:21.760 --> 00:11:24.425 every level and in every neighborhood. So, 00:11:24.425 --> 00:11:26.779 for me, we haven't had the conversation 00:11:26.779 --> 00:11:30.204 about what a smart city really is and this 00:11:30.204 --> 00:11:33.440 article that I have done for you on human 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:35.764 intelligence and open source technologies 00:11:35.764 --> 00:11:38.376 is perhaps the beginning of that conversation. 00:11:38.376 --> 00:11:41.280 I have to say that I really enjoyed your 00:11:41.280 --> 00:11:43.778 article and I'm just about to publish it 00:11:43.778 --> 00:11:45.509 so it should actually be published at the 00:11:45.509 --> 00:11:47.815 time we publish the final edit of this 00:11:47.815 --> 00:11:50.817 interview, so people will be able to check 00:11:50.817 --> 00:11:54.281 it out and I have to say, as a cyclist myself, 00:11:54.281 --> 00:11:57.718 and someone who is very concerned and 00:11:57.718 --> 00:12:01.200 interested in sustainability and not wasting 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:05.436 things, I totally agree with you on the idea of a smart city. But you 00:12:05.436 --> 00:12:09.337 know what? Allow me to, please roll back 00:12:09.337 --> 00:12:12.628 the tape start at the beginning because 00:12:12.628 --> 00:12:15.626 there is a kind of a seeming paradox 00:12:15.626 --> 00:12:17.440 between your background and what you're 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.528 saying, so I want you to lead us through 00:12:20.528 --> 00:12:22.880 the story of what led you to be where you 00:12:22.880 --> 00:12:27.760 are, because, basically, you, in your book 00:12:27.760 --> 00:12:30.754 even you say that in the 1980's you were 00:12:30.754 --> 00:12:35.866 a republican, Reaganite, believer in trickle 00:12:35.866 --> 00:12:37.714 down economics... 00:12:37.714 --> 00:12:40.560 I WAS WRONG! I have repented my sins. 00:12:40.560 --> 00:12:41.843 (Both laugh) 00:12:41.843 --> 00:12:45.788 Okay but, but the question then is why 00:12:45.788 --> 00:12:47.000 and how? 00:12:48.026 --> 00:12:49.477 Well, let me tell you the story. 00:12:49.477 --> 00:12:51.239 That's a very, very big shift. 00:12:51.239 --> 00:12:55.414 I grew up as the son of an oil man. I went 00:12:55.414 --> 00:12:57.506 into the marine corp as an infantry officer 00:12:57.506 --> 00:13:00.160 and then from the Marine Corp the CIA came 00:13:00.160 --> 00:13:02.509 in and pulled me out and I became a 00:13:02.509 --> 00:13:05.754 clandestine service case officer. Now the 00:13:05.754 --> 00:13:08.429 Marine Corp and the CIA are inherently 00:13:08.429 --> 00:13:10.700 conservative organizations that do not 00:13:10.700 --> 00:13:13.962 question authority. They basically obey 00:13:13.962 --> 00:13:16.453 orders and do what they're told to do. 00:13:16.453 --> 00:13:21.315 In 1988 I was asked by the Marine Corp to 00:13:21.315 --> 00:13:24.240 leave the CIA and become the senior civilian 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.737 responsible for creating the Marine Corps 00:13:26.737 --> 00:13:30.344 Intelligence Center, and I did that and I 00:13:30.344 --> 00:13:33.775 spent twenty million dollars on very secret 00:13:33.775 --> 00:13:37.121 equipment to access all secret information 00:13:37.121 --> 00:13:41.371 and in one little corner I had a PC connected 00:13:41.371 --> 00:13:45.312 to the internet and back in 1988 the internet 00:13:45.312 --> 00:13:47.880 was something called "the Source", that was 00:13:47.880 --> 00:13:51.884 the google of it's time. Well imagine my 00:13:51.884 --> 00:13:55.169 surprise when all of my analysts started 00:13:55.169 --> 00:13:58.993 lining up for the PC. And, I went to them 00:13:58.993 --> 00:14:00.387 and I said, I've just spent twenty million 00:14:00.387 --> 00:14:03.320 dollars so you can access everything that 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:06.096 NSA and CIA knows and you're standing in 00:14:06.096 --> 00:14:10.275 line fora PC? And, they said, yes, because 00:14:10.275 --> 00:14:13.273 CIA and NSA don't know anything about 00:14:13.273 --> 00:14:17.316 Burundi, Haiti or Somalia, they only know 00:14:17.316 --> 00:14:19.888 things about the Soviet Union and China 00:14:19.888 --> 00:14:24.368 and North Korea and Iran. That was my 00:14:24.368 --> 00:14:28.724 awakening. That was when I realized that 00:14:28.724 --> 00:14:33.073 we had a cold war government with cold war 00:14:33.073 --> 00:14:36.718 institutions that were focused obsessively 00:14:36.718 --> 00:14:40.304 on a few heavy targets, like Russia and 00:14:40.304 --> 00:14:42.356 China and were ignoring the entire rest 00:14:42.356 --> 00:14:44.896 of the world. So, I started the Open Source 00:14:44.896 --> 00:14:47.493 Intelligence revolution and in fact, I 00:14:47.493 --> 00:14:51.520 testified to the Aspin-Brown Commission and 00:14:51.520 --> 00:14:54.729 they asked me to do a competition of me 00:14:54.729 --> 00:14:58.480 and my phone against a sixty billion dollar 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.220 a year intelligence community, and I won. 00:15:01.220 --> 00:15:05.109 They set the target as Burundi and they 00:15:05.109 --> 00:15:07.734 asked me to get whatever I could on Burundi 00:15:07.734 --> 00:15:10.226 over night, it was over a weekend actually 00:15:10.226 --> 00:15:13.760 and they asked the entire U.S. Intelligence 00:15:13.760 --> 00:15:15.769 community to provide everything they had 00:15:15.769 --> 00:15:18.223 on Burundi. They had nothing on Burundi. 00:15:18.223 --> 00:15:21.468 Nobody cares about Burundi, but Burundi is 00:15:21.468 --> 00:15:24.307 where the Marine Corps goes. I was able to 00:15:24.307 --> 00:15:29.202 produce one to fifty thousand Russian combat 00:15:29.232 --> 00:15:32.262 charts, maps for Burundi, French imagery, 00:15:32.290 --> 00:15:35.640 spot imagery of Burundi, cloud free, less 00:15:35.800 --> 00:15:37.760 than four years old, in the archives at the 00:15:37.760 --> 00:15:41.866 1 to 50 level. Jane's Information Group, 00:15:41.866 --> 00:15:43.876 my friend Alfred Rollington called in an 00:15:43.876 --> 00:15:45.786 analyst for the weekend and he created an 00:15:45.786 --> 00:15:48.998 order of battle for the tribes, not just the army 00:15:48.998 --> 00:15:51.855 the U.S. intelligence community only does 00:15:51.855 --> 00:15:53.989 armies that where uniforms they don't do 00:15:53.989 --> 00:15:56.989 tribal orders of battle. I was able to get 00:15:56.989 --> 00:15:59.218 from the Institute of Scientific Information 00:15:59.218 --> 00:16:01.279 that the top hundred academics writing on 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:04.843 Burundi and Rwanda. From Lexis/Nexis I got 00:16:04.843 --> 00:16:06.847 the top journalist writing on Burundi and 00:16:06.847 --> 00:16:09.149 Rwanda, and I don't care what they've written 00:16:09.149 --> 00:16:13.301 I just want them for debriefing. And, from 00:16:13.301 --> 00:16:15.698 Oxford Analytica, I got the last twenty 00:16:15.698 --> 00:16:18.100 reports they had done on the geo-political 00:16:18.100 --> 00:16:20.280 implications of genocide in Burundi and 00:16:20.280 --> 00:16:26.072 Rwanda. With five or six phone calls in one 00:16:26.072 --> 00:16:29.840 day, I was able to put together more on 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:32.548 Burundi then the entire U.S. secret intelligence 00:16:32.548 --> 00:16:36.280 community in the last ten years... 00:16:36.280 --> 00:16:39.376 Because I knew who knew and was able to 00:16:39.376 --> 00:16:41.280 reach out in the open source world and I 00:16:41.280 --> 00:16:44.273 was able to pull this together. Okay? So, 00:16:44.273 --> 00:16:47.479 that was my awakening. That's when I started 00:16:47.479 --> 00:16:50.113 to realize U.S. government was actually a 00:16:50.113 --> 00:16:53.000 military industrial complex that exists to 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:56.069 spend money to enrich the few. It's not 00:16:56.069 --> 00:16:59.165 actually focused on furthering democracy 00:16:59.165 --> 00:17:02.081 or creating prosperity for the average American. 00:17:02.081 --> 00:17:05.549 And, what year was that again, when you... 00:17:05.549 --> 00:17:07.079 1988. 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:08.357 I see. 00:17:08.357 --> 00:17:11.840 In 1989 I ghost wrote an article for 00:17:11.840 --> 00:17:14.304 Gen. Al Gray, in which I talked about 00:17:14.304 --> 00:17:17.723 emerging threats as being non state actors 00:17:17.723 --> 00:17:22.435 with off the shelf weapons, with no order 00:17:22.435 --> 00:17:24.277 of battle, with no rules of engagement, 00:17:24.277 --> 00:17:28.027 precisely what ISIS is today and the 00:17:28.027 --> 00:17:30.469 Marine Corps tried to get the U.S. government 00:17:30.469 --> 00:17:33.779 to invest money in preparing to go against 00:17:33.779 --> 00:17:37.338 ISIS like capabilities and everybody refused. 00:17:37.888 --> 00:17:41.234 Today we spend one percent on the infantry. 00:17:41.234 --> 00:17:44.305 The other ninety nine percent is spent on 00:17:44.305 --> 00:17:46.535 very heavy expensive things that don't do 00:17:46.535 --> 00:17:49.299 what they're suppose to do and it turns out 00:17:49.299 --> 00:17:51.577 that the U.S. government, U.S. military is 00:17:51.577 --> 00:17:54.347 in the business of building really, really 00:17:54.347 --> 00:17:58.399 expensive things that enrich a few corporations 00:17:58.399 --> 00:18:01.215 but don't actually do anything to reduce 00:18:01.215 --> 00:18:04.157 the number of amputees and dead, wounded 00:18:04.157 --> 00:18:08.700 and suicides that we have. We do not have a human centric 00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:12.398 military. We have a military that exists for 00:18:12.398 --> 00:18:14.344 Lockheed Martin's convenience. 00:18:14.344 --> 00:18:17.519 Yeah, and the F35 is a good example. 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:20.156 Absolutely, in fact the F35 is killing pilots 00:18:20.156 --> 00:18:23.010 because nobody thought about the fact that 00:18:23.010 --> 00:18:25.219 the chemicals that are associated with the 00:18:25.219 --> 00:18:28.045 stealth covering would bleed into the cockpit 00:18:28.045 --> 00:18:29.559 and kill pilots. 00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:32.510 Wow, I didn't even know that. 00:18:32.510 --> 00:18:36.258 Yeah, we are creating a lot of garbage and 00:18:36.258 --> 00:18:38.601 oh, by the way, the Air Force doesn't know 00:18:38.601 --> 00:18:41.156 how to run secure satellites so now all of 00:18:41.156 --> 00:18:43.069 the Navy captains are learning celestial 00:18:43.069 --> 00:18:47.120 navigation, and the army officers are trying 00:18:47.120 --> 00:18:48.200 to figure out how they are going to know 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:50.456 where they are when the GPS goes out. 00:18:51.346 --> 00:18:54.846 You shut down the GPS and the U.S. military 00:18:55.090 --> 00:18:57.909 grinds to a halt. And, that's why I also 00:18:57.909 --> 00:19:00.597 started getting interested in redundancy and 00:19:00.597 --> 00:19:02.535 sustainability and survivor-ability. 00:19:02.535 --> 00:19:05.433 I essentially realized that we have 00:19:05.433 --> 00:19:08.567 a government that is spending a lot of 00:19:08.567 --> 00:19:10.632 money creating things that don't actually 00:19:10.632 --> 00:19:12.750 produce peace or prosperity. 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:16.513 Wow, and again, very dense answer with lots 00:19:16.513 --> 00:19:18.957 of topics there, so let me see if I can 00:19:18.957 --> 00:19:21.721 sort of lead the way to sort of reveal your 00:19:21.721 --> 00:19:24.361 thesis and hopefully the most conducive way 00:19:24.361 --> 00:19:28.091 possible. So, tell us... Perhaps the next step 00:19:28.091 --> 00:19:31.160 will be best if we discuss sort of the 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:34.267 dichotomy or the tension or the opposition, 00:19:34.267 --> 00:19:36.462 if you will, between secrecy on the one hand 00:19:36.462 --> 00:19:39.253 and open source on the other hand, because 00:19:39.253 --> 00:19:41.560 they do seem to be mutually exclusive. 00:19:41.560 --> 00:19:44.027 So, we did already see your background 00:19:44.027 --> 00:19:48.386 sort of, your 'A Ha' moment, your amazing 00:19:48.386 --> 00:19:51.322 competition against the whole intelligence 00:19:51.322 --> 00:19:53.930 community gathering that much on Burundi 00:19:53.930 --> 00:19:57.699 over a weekend. So, now talk to us about 00:19:57.699 --> 00:20:01.229 the shift from secrecy into open source 00:20:01.229 --> 00:20:03.785 and how is that reasonable or the best 00:20:03.785 --> 00:20:04.459 way forward? 00:20:04.459 --> 00:20:07.893 (pause) 00:20:07.893 --> 00:20:10.358 First, let's go back to the beginning of 00:20:10.358 --> 00:20:12.330 the U.S. Secret Intelligence community, 00:20:12.330 --> 00:20:14.405 people are only now starting to realize 00:20:14.405 --> 00:20:16.801 that Allen Dulles was a traitor. 00:20:16.801 --> 00:20:21.033 Allen Dulles went against Eisenhower and against 00:20:21.033 --> 00:20:24.053 Kennedy and he single handedly rescued the 00:20:24.053 --> 00:20:27.157 Nazi regime and much of the wealth of the 00:20:27.157 --> 00:20:31.194 Nazi regime. Allen Dulles helped Nazi's 00:20:31.194 --> 00:20:35.215 escape justice. He imported thousands of Nazi's, 00:20:35.215 --> 00:20:38.120 not just scientists but leaders and people 00:20:38.120 --> 00:20:40.241 that had run death camps and so forth. 00:20:40.241 --> 00:20:48.199 --- We also captured all of the gold in 00:20:48.199 --> 00:20:50.639 the Philippines, that the Japanese had 00:20:50.639 --> 00:20:52.371 taken from China and elsewhere and then 00:20:52.371 --> 00:20:53.945 they buried it in the Philippines when our 00:20:53.945 --> 00:20:56.523 submarines were interrupting the return of 00:20:56.523 --> 00:20:59.899 the gold to Japan. That gold, it's a story 00:20:59.899 --> 00:21:02.455 that's told in a book called "Gold Warriors" 00:21:02.455 --> 00:21:05.161 by Peggy and Sterling Seagraves, that gold 00:21:05.161 --> 00:21:08.539 became the Black Lilly covert action fund 00:21:08.539 --> 00:21:12.349 and Allen Dulles used that fund to restore 00:21:12.349 --> 00:21:16.804 fascists in Italy, Japan and Germany and it 00:21:16.804 --> 00:21:18.586 became.... what's that? 00:21:18.586 --> 00:21:20.089 Guatemala perhaps? 00:21:20.089 --> 00:21:24.051 Also. We love fascists. We love fascists 00:21:24.051 --> 00:21:27.575 in Indonesia as well. Essentially CIA became 00:21:27.575 --> 00:21:30.800 a, something that Harry Truman never, ever 00:21:30.800 --> 00:21:33.760 anticipated. And, Harry Truman himself wrote 00:21:33.760 --> 00:21:37.512 a letter in the Washington Post in 1968 that 00:21:37.512 --> 00:21:39.640 said that he had never intended for CIA 00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:42.419 to become a covert operations organization. 00:21:42.419 --> 00:21:46.086 But, it was able to use secrecy under 00:21:46.086 --> 00:21:48.290 Allen Dulles to escape accountability. 00:21:48.290 --> 00:21:51.760 I have testified to the Secrecy Commission 00:21:51.760 --> 00:21:56.640 of Senator Patrick Moynihan and I testified 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.246 to the effect that secrecy nine times out of 00:22:00.246 --> 00:22:03.093 ten is not used for good reasons, it's used 00:22:03.093 --> 00:22:05.583 to avoid accountability and it's used to 00:22:05.583 --> 00:22:08.680 do evil in our name, without being discovered. 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:14.608 Now, openness is actually important because 00:22:14.608 --> 00:22:18.537 openness is subject to audit. One of the 00:22:18.537 --> 00:22:20.995 problems with the secret community is that 00:22:20.995 --> 00:22:22.680 it believes in what are called bi-lateral 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.891 relations. So, for example Americans will 00:22:25.891 --> 00:22:28.099 meet with the Germans one on one and they 00:22:28.099 --> 00:22:28.938 will meet with the French one on one then 00:22:28.938 --> 00:22:31.427 they will meet with the Jordanians one on one 00:22:31.427 --> 00:22:33.976 and what happens is that two governments 00:22:33.976 --> 00:22:37.521 lie to each other...because there is no third 00:22:37.521 --> 00:22:40.709 party present, there is no real quality 00:22:40.709 --> 00:22:43.672 control. Now the neat thing about the 00:22:43.672 --> 00:22:46.524 openness environment is it's multi-national. 00:22:46.524 --> 00:22:49.299 And not only is it multi-national, but you 00:22:49.299 --> 00:22:51.714 have eight tribes. I call these eight 00:22:51.714 --> 00:22:55.453 tribes of information. The academic tribe, 00:22:55.453 --> 00:22:57.560 the civil society tribe, which includes labor 00:22:57.560 --> 00:23:00.759 unions and religions, the commerce tribe, 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:03.905 which is especially small business, governments, 00:23:03.905 --> 00:23:06.419 especially local, law enforcement, media, 00:23:06.419 --> 00:23:08.795 military, media, including bloggers like 00:23:08.795 --> 00:23:12.780 yourself. And then, military and non-governmental. 00:23:12.780 --> 00:23:15.648 Now, I did my first graduate thesis on 00:23:15.648 --> 00:23:17.370 predicting revolution. My second graduate 00:23:17.370 --> 00:23:19.999 thesis was on strategic information management 00:23:19.999 --> 00:23:21.800 and what I discovered was that the 00:23:21.800 --> 00:23:24.052 government was essentially operating on 00:23:24.052 --> 00:23:27.521 two percent of the relevant information. 00:23:27.521 --> 00:23:30.423 Most of the information that we need in 00:23:30.423 --> 00:23:33.640 order to make good decisions is known to 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:36.719 people who haven't put it on-line, don't 00:23:36.719 --> 00:23:39.112 speak English, don't have security clearances 00:23:39.112 --> 00:23:41.200 and generally don't like the U.S. government, 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:43.005 but because of the way in which we are 00:23:43.005 --> 00:23:45.427 structured...If you look at a typical 00:23:45.427 --> 00:23:48.220 embassy overseas, the diplomats are 00:23:48.220 --> 00:23:50.633 outnumbered, by all the other people from 00:23:50.633 --> 00:23:52.899 other agencies that don't trust the Department 00:23:52.899 --> 00:23:55.706 of State to do it right. The embassy officers 00:23:55.706 --> 00:23:57.921 don't have money with which to buy legal 00:23:57.921 --> 00:24:00.320 ethical information from private investigators, 00:24:00.320 --> 00:24:03.599 or investigative journalists or information 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:06.279 brokers, or commercial intelligence companies, 00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:08.228 the only people with money are the spies 00:24:08.228 --> 00:24:10.812 and the spies insist that you commit treason 00:24:10.812 --> 00:24:12.593 before they'll listen to you. 00:24:12.593 --> 00:24:16.290 This is a very perverted way of collecting 00:24:16.290 --> 00:24:18.864 information. So, what you end up with 00:24:18.864 --> 00:24:22.743 is a country team, that essentially collects 00:24:22.743 --> 00:24:25.320 twenty percent at best of what can be known 00:24:25.320 --> 00:24:28.096 and then, because they are supposed to 00:24:28.096 --> 00:24:30.373 coordinate anything that goes out electronically, 00:24:30.373 --> 00:24:33.774 instead of coordinating electronic messages that can 00:24:33.774 --> 00:24:36.160 be shared with everybody, they send what 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:38.021 they collect back in the pouch, a physical 00:24:38.021 --> 00:24:41.238 pouch. And, what that means is we spill 00:24:41.238 --> 00:24:43.627 eighty percent of what we collect, 00:24:43.627 --> 00:24:46.388 because once it gets back in a hard copy 00:24:46.388 --> 00:24:48.791 volume to a desk officer that's overworked, 00:24:48.791 --> 00:24:50.739 that desk officer will either file it or 00:24:50.739 --> 00:24:54.167 throw it away. They will not exploit it. 00:24:54.167 --> 00:24:57.186 And this comes to the whole big data issue. 00:24:57.186 --> 00:25:00.118 Mary Meeker has said we process less than 00:25:00.118 --> 00:25:03.073 one percent of the big data that we collect. 00:25:03.073 --> 00:25:05.120 While the intelligence community and the 00:25:05.120 --> 00:25:06.960 U.S. government are in the same position, 00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:10.326 we have spent the last fifty years developing 00:25:10.326 --> 00:25:14.782 collection systems. We haven't been developing 00:25:14.782 --> 00:25:16.561 processing and analytic systems. 00:25:16.561 --> 00:25:19.935 I wrote a forward to a book on cyber hosting 00:25:19.935 --> 00:25:22.814 by Stephen Arnold and my forward outlines 00:25:22.814 --> 00:25:24.806 the failures of the intelligence, of the 00:25:24.806 --> 00:25:27.776 information technology community over the 00:25:27.776 --> 00:25:32.410 last fifty years. We focus on big, expensive ways 00:25:32.410 --> 00:25:35.366 of collecting and storing information, we 00:25:35.366 --> 00:25:37.754 have not focused on ways to help people 00:25:37.754 --> 00:25:40.293 share information and make sense of 00:25:40.293 --> 00:25:42.113 information across all boundaries. 00:25:42.113 --> 00:25:43.707 Wow... (smiles) 00:25:43.707 --> 00:25:50.977 Okay... Fascinating. So, basically 00:25:50.977 --> 00:25:54.760 intelligence, as you describe it is in a 00:25:54.760 --> 00:25:58.001 big mess but, let's perhaps define. 00:25:58.001 --> 00:26:01.833 What do you mean by the term "intelligence" 00:26:01.833 --> 00:26:04.545 when you speak of it? What is it that you 00:26:04.545 --> 00:26:05.233 are referring to? 00:26:05.233 --> 00:26:07.251 I'm so glad you asked that because 00:26:07.251 --> 00:26:09.849 properly understood, intelligence means 00:26:09.849 --> 00:26:15.358 decision support. Data is a single element 00:26:15.358 --> 00:26:18.356 whether it's a signal or an image or a 00:26:18.356 --> 00:26:23.380 text document, that's data. Information is 00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:25.990 data that has been integrated and had value 00:26:25.990 --> 00:26:28.372 added and is then broadcast generically. 00:26:28.372 --> 00:26:32.083 So, for example a newspaper is information, 00:26:32.083 --> 00:26:34.980 where all these journalists have taken all 00:26:34.980 --> 00:26:37.214 these sources of data, they've created these 00:26:37.214 --> 00:26:39.421 generic articles and then they broadcast them. 00:26:39.421 --> 00:26:44.818 Intelligence is decision support that seeks 00:26:44.818 --> 00:26:47.947 to answer a very specific question by a 00:26:47.947 --> 00:26:52.178 very specific decider or decision group. 00:26:52.178 --> 00:26:55.548 When I was lecturing in Spain, one of the 00:26:55.548 --> 00:26:58.338 things I found, was that, when I asked people 00:26:58.338 --> 00:27:00.623 who was the client, they would say, oh well 00:27:00.623 --> 00:27:02.956 IBM is the client or the trade ministry 00:27:02.956 --> 00:27:05.960 is the client, I would say, no. The client 00:27:05.960 --> 00:27:08.880 is the specific human being that is going 00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:12.767 to be making the decision. If you aren't 00:27:12.767 --> 00:27:15.930 focused on what that specific human being needs 00:27:15.930 --> 00:27:18.320 to know, wants to know and has to know 00:27:18.320 --> 00:27:21.740 than you are nothing more than a classified 00:27:21.740 --> 00:27:22.604 newspaper. 00:27:25.321 --> 00:27:28.946 So, we've described how intelligence fails 00:27:28.946 --> 00:27:31.153 today. We've defined it. Now let's take 00:27:31.153 --> 00:27:33.827 the next step. 00:27:35.745 --> 00:27:38.121 What is open source intelligence 00:27:38.121 --> 00:27:43.987 as being distinctive from secretive classic 00:27:43.987 --> 00:27:45.679 traditional intelligence? 00:27:45.679 --> 00:27:48.880 Well, one of the dirty little secrets of 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:51.759 the secret intelligence community is that 00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:53.695 it doesn't really produce a lot of useful 00:27:53.695 --> 00:27:56.884 information. It doesn't actually produce 00:27:56.884 --> 00:27:58.883 decision support. I wrote an article for 00:27:58.883 --> 00:28:01.096 Counterpunch called, "Intelligence for the 00:28:01.096 --> 00:28:04.705 President and Everybody Else", the CIA for 00:28:04.705 --> 00:28:07.400 example does not produce useful decision 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:09.160 support for the Department of Agriculture, 00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:11.912 the Department of Energy, the Department 00:28:11.912 --> 00:28:14.387 of the Interior, the Department of Housing, 00:28:14.387 --> 00:28:16.868 Health and Human Welfare, it doesn't do 00:28:16.868 --> 00:28:19.882 decision support, for the rest of the government, 00:28:19.882 --> 00:28:22.913 and part of the problem, which is understandable, 00:28:22.913 --> 00:28:24.761 is that they think that they are in the 00:28:24.761 --> 00:28:27.433 business of secrets for the President, and 00:28:27.433 --> 00:28:30.033 they believe that open source intelligence 00:28:30.033 --> 00:28:32.680 should be done by the customers themselves. 00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:36.512 And that's a mistake. Because the craft of 00:28:36.512 --> 00:28:38.430 intelligence, I've written ten books... 00:28:38.430 --> 00:28:41.456 One of my favorite books is my second book 00:28:41.456 --> 00:28:43.976 "The New Craft of Intelligence - Personal, 00:28:43.976 --> 00:28:46.440 Public and Political". More recently I've 00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:49.221 written a book called, "Intelligence for Earth - 00:28:49.221 --> 00:28:51.599 Clarity, Diversity, Integrity and Sustainability" 00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:53.839 and that's more or less my magnum opus. 00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:57.313 It has over a thousand five hundred links in it, 00:28:57.313 --> 00:28:59.261 so, if you buy the kindle version, you can 00:28:59.261 --> 00:29:01.854 then link to all of my book reviews and all 00:29:01.854 --> 00:29:03.994 of the other documents that I support it 00:29:03.994 --> 00:29:07.806 with. Okay? The craft of intelligence is 00:29:07.806 --> 00:29:10.360 about having an objective, professional 00:29:10.360 --> 00:29:15.035 group that is able to craft a requirement 00:29:15.035 --> 00:29:16.418 and partnership with the person being 00:29:16.418 --> 00:29:18.513 supported. That's requirement's definition. 00:29:18.513 --> 00:29:20.981 Then they do collection management, 00:29:20.981 --> 00:29:22.981 they know who knows, they go out and they 00:29:22.981 --> 00:29:24.904 pull in all these sources from many different 00:29:24.904 --> 00:29:27.661 places, and this can also be done discreetly 00:29:27.661 --> 00:29:29.436 whether you are doing it open source or 00:29:29.436 --> 00:29:31.833 closed source. Then they do processing, 00:29:31.833 --> 00:29:34.513 man machine processing and one of the 00:29:34.513 --> 00:29:36.911 problems that we have with machine processing 00:29:36.911 --> 00:29:41.722 is that I was ignored. In 1988 I told the 00:29:41.722 --> 00:29:44.365 General Defence Intelligence Program Committee 00:29:44.365 --> 00:29:47.169 that we had to have geo-spatial attributes 00:29:47.169 --> 00:29:50.680 on every datam or we would never be able 00:29:50.680 --> 00:29:54.300 to do machine speed visualization of all 00:29:54.300 --> 00:29:57.104 data all the time. We still don't have that. 00:29:57.104 --> 00:30:00.801 Okay? So, machine processing is actually 00:30:00.801 --> 00:30:03.938 severely limited due to lack of the geospatial 00:30:03.947 --> 00:30:07.485 attributes on every datam. And then you do 00:30:07.485 --> 00:30:09.851 man processing, one of problems that we have 00:30:09.851 --> 00:30:13.155 in both the intelligence community and the 00:30:13.155 --> 00:30:16.921 customer base, is we have a mix of young 00:30:16.921 --> 00:30:20.264 people and political appointees, not subject 00:30:20.264 --> 00:30:23.620 matter experts. I wrote an article for the 00:30:23.620 --> 00:30:28.341 U.S. Institute for Peace in 1997 and we 00:30:28.341 --> 00:30:31.705 talked about the chasm, the gap between 00:30:31.705 --> 00:30:34.672 people with power and people with knowledge, 00:30:34.672 --> 00:30:39.200 that gap is now catastrophic. Decisions are 00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:42.255 made in Washington on the basis of who has 00:30:42.255 --> 00:30:46.740 paid for that decision, not on the basis of 00:30:46.740 --> 00:30:48.800 evidence or the public interest. 00:30:48.800 --> 00:30:52.075 So, Open Source intelligence is the 00:30:52.075 --> 00:30:54.433 application of the craft of intelligence 00:30:54.433 --> 00:30:58.793 legally and ethically to create smart cities, 00:30:58.793 --> 00:31:02.594 smart nations, smart companies, smart citizens. 00:31:02.594 --> 00:31:06.361 It's about not being a sheep. 00:31:09.144 --> 00:31:12.776 --- Wow. Okay, not being a sheep. 00:31:12.914 --> 00:31:14.132 Bahahahaha... 00:31:14.132 --> 00:31:16.306 --- 00:31:16.306 --> 00:31:18.680 I love that. I absolutely love that. 00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:25.593 So, but you are going to be giving the tools 00:31:25.593 --> 00:31:28.521 for people not to be sheep any more, but 00:31:28.521 --> 00:31:34.033 then you have to really kind of presume or 00:31:34.033 --> 00:31:36.073 assume that they would care to do that, 00:31:36.073 --> 00:31:37.006 wouldn't you? 00:31:37.006 --> 00:31:39.680 You know, one of the things I've decided 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:41.891 that if I ever work for a President and I'm 00:31:41.891 --> 00:31:43.679 ever offered my dream job, I want to be 00:31:43.679 --> 00:31:46.217 Secretary of Education, Intelligence and 00:31:46.217 --> 00:31:48.711 Research, together. 00:31:49.195 --> 00:31:51.314 One of the problems we have, is we have 00:31:51.314 --> 00:31:53.814 an educational system that trains sheep. 00:31:53.814 --> 00:31:56.515 --- 00:31:56.515 --> 00:31:59.516 It basically requires kids to sit still for 00:31:59.516 --> 00:32:02.756 eighteen years. That's a crime against 00:32:02.756 --> 00:32:07.291 humanity. It beats the creativity out of children. 00:32:07.291 --> 00:32:10.600 It tries to teach children to not question 00:32:10.600 --> 00:32:13.694 authority. It completely closes them 00:32:13.694 --> 00:32:16.773 off from the real world. I think we need to 00:32:16.773 --> 00:32:19.437 radically alter education, and we need to make 00:32:19.437 --> 00:32:23.032 education a life long endeavour, at the same 00:32:23.032 --> 00:32:25.716 time that we make meaningful work and creative 00:32:25.716 --> 00:32:28.680 artistic work, including the arts and music, 00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:30.680 and everything. I mean music helps your 00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:32.705 brain. The arts help your brain. 00:32:32.705 --> 00:32:37.009 So, we have, we're at the end of the 00:32:37.009 --> 00:32:39.062 industrial era. The industrial era was 00:32:39.062 --> 00:32:42.380 about turning the population into obedient 00:32:42.380 --> 00:32:45.651 sheep and factory workers and now we're 00:32:45.651 --> 00:32:47.836 getting into an era, and part of the problem 00:32:47.836 --> 00:32:50.507 with the singularity approach is it doesn't 00:32:50.507 --> 00:32:54.065 understand the true costs. Okay? So, you're 00:32:54.065 --> 00:32:57.353 smart phone for example has at least 5 dead 00:32:57.353 --> 00:33:01.787 Chinese in it, because the Chinese are 00:33:01.787 --> 00:33:04.476 required to dip their hands into class A 00:33:04.476 --> 00:33:07.771 carcinogenic in order to build that smart 00:33:07.771 --> 00:33:10.827 phone and what that means is that the 00:33:10.827 --> 00:33:12.874 Chinese that have touched and built your 00:33:12.874 --> 00:33:15.153 smart phone have essentially come down 00:33:15.153 --> 00:33:17.940 with leukaemia and they are now in a 00:33:17.940 --> 00:33:20.291 leukaemia ward or they're dead and buried. 00:33:20.291 --> 00:33:24.707 So, there is a human cost to the singularity 00:33:24.707 --> 00:33:28.138 that has not been properly evaluated. 00:33:28.138 --> 00:33:30.800 That sounds a little bit too much to me, 00:33:30.800 --> 00:33:32.912 I mean in the sense that I totally agree 00:33:32.912 --> 00:33:35.663 on the, on the, sort of, carcinogenic 00:33:35.663 --> 00:33:39.640 things but, Apple has sold, on their own 00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:42.271 like hundreds of millions of phones, if we 00:33:42.271 --> 00:33:44.888 had five dead people for each phone, the 00:33:44.888 --> 00:33:47.113 whole Chinese population would disappear. 00:33:47.113 --> 00:33:50.141 All right, you just killed my math, but, 00:33:50.141 --> 00:33:51.828 it's a very good idea, we need to run the 00:33:51.828 --> 00:33:55.665 number up to five. Look for an article... 00:33:55.665 --> 00:33:59.130 Nikoli: (inaudible)....if you were more specific. Roberts: ...I have a link, I have a link 00:33:59.130 --> 00:34:00.440 I have a link in my article for you called, 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:05.540 "The Human Cost of Computing" and so you'll 00:34:05.540 --> 00:34:08.433 see the data there on Chinese coming down 00:34:08.433 --> 00:34:10.497 with Leukaemia, you're probably right. You 00:34:10.497 --> 00:34:12.651 are probably talking one Chinese for every 00:34:12.651 --> 00:34:15.455 thousand phones, or something like that. 00:34:15.455 --> 00:34:17.880 I don't know what the number is. The point 00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:20.104 is people do come down with leukaemia 00:34:20.104 --> 00:34:22.476 while building smart phones. 00:34:22.476 --> 00:34:25.603 And I agree on that point, I just disagree 00:34:25.603 --> 00:34:27.412 it's going to be five because I actually think 00:34:27.412 --> 00:34:28.383 that that's actually...(inaudible) 00:34:28.383 --> 00:34:31.103 You've got me. I'm wrong. I confess my sins. 00:34:31.103 --> 00:34:36.320 Yeah...okay... And one of the ones that I 00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:38.080 liked from those examples you have listed 00:34:38.080 --> 00:34:40.252 there is actually a very kind of obvious 00:34:40.252 --> 00:34:42.796 one, in a sense that, for example each 00:34:42.796 --> 00:34:47.044 plastic water bottle requires water equal 00:34:47.044 --> 00:34:50.113 to six or seven water bottles. 00:34:50.113 --> 00:34:51.513 It's insane. 00:34:51.513 --> 00:34:54.610 Right. To hold one water bottle worth 00:34:54.610 --> 00:34:55.321 of water. 00:34:55.321 --> 00:34:57.891 Then now, what's interesting is in the last 00:34:57.891 --> 00:35:01.041 few years, several excellent processes have 00:35:01.041 --> 00:35:05.512 come up for recycling plastic, but we're 00:35:05.512 --> 00:35:08.480 still not doing it. There is just this 00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:11.871 attitude of waste. I think the 00:35:11.871 --> 00:35:15.067 day is going to come when trash dumps 00:35:15.067 --> 00:35:16.946 become gold mines. 00:35:16.946 --> 00:35:19.426 That's part of the singularity crowd though. 00:35:19.426 --> 00:35:22.040 I like that. I didn't know that. 00:35:22.040 --> 00:35:25.518 Yeah...The sort of, the fact that there will 00:35:25.518 --> 00:35:29.480 be lots of treasure buried there for recycling 00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:31.826 and for future entrepreneurs, at least 00:35:31.826 --> 00:35:33.244 that's one of the ideas anyway. 00:35:33.244 --> 00:35:34.556 It's a good one. 00:35:34.556 --> 00:35:38.081 But, how and when it's about to be seen 00:35:38.081 --> 00:35:39.634 at least the the scale, to the exponential 00:35:39.634 --> 00:35:41.924 scale that we are hoping it will be. 00:35:41.924 --> 00:35:44.040 But, I'm not seeing it yet and I'm on 00:35:44.040 --> 00:35:47.056 your side to the extent that waste and 00:35:47.056 --> 00:35:50.552 sort of negative actualities that we see 00:35:50.552 --> 00:35:52.517 in the exponential production of many of 00:35:52.517 --> 00:35:53.520 these things. 00:35:53.520 --> 00:35:56.045 Well, let's talk exponential and scale. 00:35:56.045 --> 00:35:58.332 One of the reasons open source engineering 00:35:58.332 --> 00:36:00.934 is so important a concept is because 00:36:00.934 --> 00:36:03.958 open source everything engineering is also 00:36:03.958 --> 00:36:07.760 distributed, no barrier to entry engineering. 00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:12.179 So this means that anybody can recycle 00:36:12.179 --> 00:36:15.882 waste. Anybody can be an entrepreneur 00:36:15.882 --> 00:36:18.246 without having to get a lot of capital 00:36:18.246 --> 00:36:20.751 investment without having to create large 00:36:20.751 --> 00:36:23.482 organizations and fixed plans and things 00:36:23.482 --> 00:36:26.448 like that. So, the whole concept behind 00:36:26.448 --> 00:36:29.013 Open Source Everything is that you have 00:36:29.013 --> 00:36:32.724 open money, open politics, open standards, 00:36:32.724 --> 00:36:35.715 you have open energy, open food, open water. 00:36:35.715 --> 00:36:39.995 All of this is way of unleashing entrepreneurial 00:36:39.995 --> 00:36:42.953 capabilities among humans. 00:36:42.953 --> 00:36:46.335 Yeah, and I agree with you on that end and 00:36:46.335 --> 00:36:50.480 I have huge problems personally with the 00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:52.915 (inaudible) system as it is right now etc... 00:36:52.915 --> 00:36:55.321 But you know, the classic counter arguments 00:36:55.321 --> 00:37:00.652 to that is of course is the issue of innovation 00:37:00.652 --> 00:37:03.664 and, or the incentive to innovate, so, how 00:37:03.664 --> 00:37:06.531 do you address that? If we open source 00:37:06.531 --> 00:37:08.911 everything, people say, no one be innovating 00:37:08.911 --> 00:37:10.840 any more because people don't get any 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:11.679 incentive... 00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:14.388 I, I, I, I don't think that's true. Now I 00:37:14.388 --> 00:37:16.913 will grant you there is still a lot of 00:37:16.913 --> 00:37:20.133 struggling about Open Source revenue models. 00:37:20.133 --> 00:37:22.184 The way that... 00:37:22.184 --> 00:37:24.634 I'm a good example of that myself. 00:37:24.634 --> 00:37:28.158 No, I understand and one of the discussions 00:37:28.158 --> 00:37:30.590 I've had with the Open Source software guys 00:37:30.590 --> 00:37:33.375 is that essentially the open source software 00:37:33.375 --> 00:37:37.571 that they create is in theory a calling card. 00:37:37.571 --> 00:37:41.178 It's an example. It's a way of announcing 00:37:41.178 --> 00:37:44.284 themselves and then, in theory, they get 00:37:44.284 --> 00:37:47.613 paid for being part of a larger team that 00:37:47.613 --> 00:37:51.146 goes on to migrate and transform and so forth. 00:37:51.146 --> 00:37:53.459 There's actually a number of open source 00:37:53.459 --> 00:37:55.989 revenue models and what they all seem to 00:37:55.989 --> 00:37:58.640 focus on is that the money is not made in 00:37:58.640 --> 00:38:00.962 the foundation, but in the finish. 00:38:00.962 --> 00:38:05.800 It's made on the edges. I, myself have not 00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:08.082 been in a normal job since the first of 00:38:08.082 --> 00:38:12.232 January 2008. I have been working on the 00:38:12.232 --> 00:38:16.367 edges, on the margins. I mean, today 00:38:16.367 --> 00:38:18.362 I gave a briefing for a thousand dollars 00:38:18.362 --> 00:38:23.869 and, it's a very uncomfortable existence, 00:38:23.869 --> 00:38:25.457 it's a very.... 00:38:25.457 --> 00:38:28.993 unpredictable and (inaudible) 00:38:28.993 --> 00:38:32.883 Yes! Yes! Now part of this larger concept 00:38:32.883 --> 00:38:36.736 is a basic income for everybody. 00:38:36.736 --> 00:38:40.403 In an open source world with an open 00:38:40.403 --> 00:38:42.516 government that is totally honest and 00:38:42.516 --> 00:38:45.011 transparent you would no longer have the 00:38:45.011 --> 00:38:47.680 concentration of wealth. You would no 00:38:47.680 --> 00:38:49.730 longer have the tax avoidance of the 00:38:49.730 --> 00:38:52.515 very rich. You would in fact have more 00:38:52.515 --> 00:38:54.786 then enough wealth for everybody. If we 00:38:54.786 --> 00:38:58.305 had... If we had gone into Afghanistan and 00:38:58.305 --> 00:39:00.499 Iraq with all the money that we spent 00:39:00.499 --> 00:39:03.479 destroying those two countries, and we had 00:39:03.479 --> 00:39:07.826 instead given everybody an annual salary and 00:39:07.826 --> 00:39:09.987 created two story houses with swimming 00:39:09.987 --> 00:39:12.400 pools with water and electricity and free 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:15.240 internet for the kids, the middle east 00:39:15.240 --> 00:39:17.921 would be a better place today and we 00:39:17.921 --> 00:39:19.658 probably would only have spent half as 00:39:19.658 --> 00:39:22.320 much money and we would not have all 00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:24.479 these residual costs of the Falluja 00:39:24.479 --> 00:39:27.498 uranium babies, and the Iraqi military 00:39:27.498 --> 00:39:29.807 officers now running ISIS units 00:39:29.807 --> 00:39:35.760 in opposition. So, I talk about holistic 00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:38.059 analytics, true cost economics and 00:39:38.059 --> 00:39:40.502 open source engineering and all three 00:39:40.502 --> 00:39:42.880 need to be together. The problem that we 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:46.746 have right now is that we are at the very 00:39:46.746 --> 00:39:50.558 end of the proprietary technology, 00:39:50.558 --> 00:39:53.480 scientific, financial paradigm. And that's 00:39:53.480 --> 00:39:55.759 the paradigm which says everybody is a 00:39:55.759 --> 00:39:58.920 slave and I own the intellectual property 00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:01.800 and I can sell it and profit from it and 00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:03.075 become a millionaire. 00:40:03.075 --> 00:40:04.979 And do you think we are at the end of it 00:40:04.979 --> 00:40:08.133 because international treaties like for 00:40:08.133 --> 00:40:10.924 example, TPPA most recently... 00:40:10.924 --> 00:40:15.840 TPPA is a crime against humanity and anybody 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:17.495 who voted for that should be impeached. 00:40:17.495 --> 00:40:21.474 Well, the Canadian government believe it 00:40:21.474 --> 00:40:23.417 or not is kind of considering it now and 00:40:23.417 --> 00:40:26.671 I'm huge opponent of them doing it, but 00:40:26.671 --> 00:40:29.248 that was negotiated in secret by the previous 00:40:29.248 --> 00:40:30.836 government and I don't even know... 00:40:30.836 --> 00:40:32.920 It was negotiated in secret, it has secret 00:40:32.920 --> 00:40:36.257 clauses, it is essentially a fascist treaty. 00:40:36.257 --> 00:40:39.893 It allows corporations to tell governments 00:40:39.893 --> 00:40:41.104 what to do. 00:40:41.104 --> 00:40:44.419 And sue them and force them to do stuff 00:40:44.419 --> 00:40:45.880 in their own country. 00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:48.198 Look, one of the cool things about the 00:40:48.198 --> 00:40:52.235 future is that absentee landlords have no 00:40:52.235 --> 00:40:57.152 standing. The day is going to come when all 00:40:57.152 --> 00:40:59.415 these big agricultural tracks are taken 00:40:59.415 --> 00:41:03.069 over by individual human beings. And, 00:41:03.069 --> 00:41:05.106 there is going to be nothing that the big 00:41:05.106 --> 00:41:07.272 agricultural landowning companies can do. 00:41:07.272 --> 00:41:10.728 They are literally going to lose their land. 00:41:10.728 --> 00:41:13.740 Because it's not their land. I believe in 00:41:13.740 --> 00:41:15.969 the French and the Mexican system with 00:41:15.969 --> 00:41:18.456 community land ownership. This is the 00:41:18.456 --> 00:41:21.500 original indigenous Native American concept 00:41:21.500 --> 00:41:24.755 so that a family can have a hundred year 00:41:24.755 --> 00:41:29.840 lease that is transmittable forever to 00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:32.489 other family members, but it cannot sell 00:41:32.489 --> 00:41:35.637 the community land, it can use the community 00:41:35.637 --> 00:41:38.846 land that is assigned to it to make a profit 00:41:38.846 --> 00:41:42.154 but it cannot do any harm to the land. 00:41:42.154 --> 00:41:45.641 So, for example no Monsanto GMO seeds 00:41:45.641 --> 00:41:48.420 no pesticides. You know, we're... 00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:53.013 There's a book called "1491" that says that 00:41:53.013 --> 00:41:55.469 the average Mayan head of household had 00:41:55.469 --> 00:41:59.138 to work sixty days a year in order to 00:41:59.138 --> 00:42:03.614 support a family of five. The rest of the time 00:42:03.614 --> 00:42:06.184 they were doing arts and crafts and 00:42:06.184 --> 00:42:07.508 killing each other. 00:42:07.508 --> 00:42:10.867 Okay, so again, many, many things there. 00:42:10.867 --> 00:42:16.281 So, but, if TPPA is what it is, then it seems 00:42:16.281 --> 00:42:18.740 to me that that regime that you're saying 00:42:18.740 --> 00:42:21.640 is coming to an end, I think, the way I 00:42:21.640 --> 00:42:24.036 see it is pretty strong and powerful and 00:42:24.036 --> 00:42:27.514 perhaps ever present and overwhelmingly 00:42:27.514 --> 00:42:28.238 so ... 00:42:28.238 --> 00:42:31.680 It's an illusion...It's an illusion that has been 00:42:31.680 --> 00:42:35.854 carefully crafted using movies and the media 00:42:35.854 --> 00:42:39.080 and the educational system. There is 00:42:39.080 --> 00:42:42.300 a wonderful cartoon of the ninety nine 00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:45.975 percent standing on a plank and the other 00:42:45.975 --> 00:42:48.043 end of the plank is out over the grand 00:42:48.043 --> 00:42:50.714 canyon and the one percent is standing 00:42:50.714 --> 00:42:52.876 on the end of the plank that is out over 00:42:52.876 --> 00:42:56.457 the grand canyon and on the ninety nine 00:42:56.457 --> 00:42:59.105 percent side, one of the 99%er's turns 00:42:59.105 --> 00:43:02.320 and says why are we standing on this plank? 00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:06.451 That day is coming.. 00:43:06.451 --> 00:43:11.138 I sure hope so, but then the concern is, 00:43:11.138 --> 00:43:13.678 of course, how is that look like, because 00:43:13.678 --> 00:43:17.400 there's many ways, shapes and forms that 00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:21.790 can come of it and there's many alternative 00:43:21.790 --> 00:43:23.990 visions to the world that that can come... 00:43:23.990 --> 00:43:27.221 And I think the answer to that, I've read 00:43:27.221 --> 00:43:30.541 a number of books on self determination 00:43:30.541 --> 00:43:33.121 and secession, Quebec for example, 00:43:33.121 --> 00:43:35.881 I believe will be it's own country within 00:43:35.881 --> 00:43:37.752 the next five to ten years. Catalan will 00:43:37.752 --> 00:43:39.600 be it's own country within five to ten 00:43:39.600 --> 00:43:41.859 years. Scotland will be it's own country. 00:43:41.859 --> 00:43:44.760 Hawaii will be it's own country within 00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:46.693 five to ten years. There are five 00:43:46.693 --> 00:43:48.892 thousand secessionist movement around 00:43:48.892 --> 00:43:50.756 the world. There are twenty seven 00:43:50.756 --> 00:43:52.874 secessionist movements in the United States. 00:43:52.874 --> 00:43:55.985 Vermont, Alaska, Texas, Hawaii and a portion 00:43:55.985 --> 00:43:58.255 of California and also Oregon and 00:43:58.255 --> 00:44:00.600 Washington among others, Long Island, 00:44:00.600 --> 00:44:03.881 New York City has talked about leaving the 00:44:03.881 --> 00:44:06.064 state of New York, but my point is 00:44:06.064 --> 00:44:09.485 I think eventually we are going to get to 00:44:09.485 --> 00:44:12.598 a world in which diversity is appreciated again. 00:44:12.598 --> 00:44:15.376 We have centralized too much. 00:44:15.376 --> 00:44:18.243 I think we call that Canada, where I come 00:44:18.243 --> 00:44:20.321 from, but anyway, that's of course a partial 00:44:20.321 --> 00:44:25.021 point of view and I don't see the...I see 00:44:25.021 --> 00:44:26.900 what your saying and I agree with most of 00:44:26.900 --> 00:44:29.102 it, the Quebec example I kind of tend to 00:44:29.102 --> 00:44:31.513 disagree with because most of the young 00:44:31.513 --> 00:44:33.954 people that I talked to today from Quebec 00:44:33.954 --> 00:44:38.840 are not concerned with that issue as 00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:40.880 one of the major issues of our time. 00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:42.921 They're more concerned with ecology, 00:44:42.921 --> 00:44:46.670 with the economy, with security, with their 00:44:46.670 --> 00:44:49.541 future job prospects, with things like that 00:44:49.541 --> 00:44:55.202 and, probably Quebec as a sovereign state 00:44:55.202 --> 00:44:58.639 is not probably even in the top ten, and 00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:00.336 certainly not in the top five, as far as I 00:45:00.336 --> 00:45:05.276 can tell. But, the other ones maybe I see 00:45:05.276 --> 00:45:08.200 that more in Catalonia for example, of what 00:45:08.200 --> 00:45:10.954 you're talking about and we see lots of 00:45:10.954 --> 00:45:13.489 recent signs of it. I don't see those signs 00:45:13.489 --> 00:45:15.108 in Canada per say. 00:45:15.108 --> 00:45:17.681 Well, I guess what I want to say to you, 00:45:17.681 --> 00:45:19.793 there is an excellent book by a former 00:45:19.793 --> 00:45:22.120 Professor of mine, Charles Bednar, called, 00:45:22.120 --> 00:45:25.248 "Transforming the Dream", and what he talks 00:45:25.248 --> 00:45:28.758 about essentially is that the industrial era 00:45:28.758 --> 00:45:32.872 paradigm has now reached the end of it's 00:45:32.872 --> 00:45:36.009 supportable life. We're going to see 00:45:36.009 --> 00:45:38.320 increasing collapses. I'm looking for 00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:40.334 an economic collapse in the United States 00:45:40.334 --> 00:45:43.769 in the next year. I'm looking for a collapse 00:45:43.769 --> 00:45:47.508 in Europe. This whole... I mean, we've had 00:45:47.508 --> 00:45:50.230 two million illegal immigrants go to Europe 00:45:50.230 --> 00:45:54.512 in the last two years. Two million! Okay? 00:45:54.512 --> 00:45:57.947 So, what's happening now is that governments 00:45:57.947 --> 00:46:01.161 are no longer legitimate in the eyes of a 00:46:01.161 --> 00:46:04.360 majority and you have concentrated wealth 00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:08.400 and I, I, I don't have it in my article for you 00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:10.555 but, I can certainly share it with you. 00:46:10.555 --> 00:46:13.519 The most popular graph on my website 00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:15.948 is "The Preconditions of Revolution Graphic", 00:46:15.948 --> 00:46:18.983 because it outlines all the things that 00:46:18.983 --> 00:46:21.476 can go wrong in political, legal, socio- 00:46:21.476 --> 00:46:24.640 economic, ideal cultural, techno-demographic 00:46:24.640 --> 00:46:27.663 and natural geographic terms. And what's 00:46:27.663 --> 00:46:29.936 happening right now in the west is all of 00:46:29.936 --> 00:46:31.480 those conditions are present. 00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:34.674 Do you think that the situation in Europe 00:46:34.674 --> 00:46:37.455 and the United States and Canada is all 00:46:37.455 --> 00:46:39.094 the same, because I see... 00:46:39.094 --> 00:46:40.953 No. They are all different. 00:46:40.953 --> 00:46:43.798 Right. That's how I see it. I see that 00:46:43.798 --> 00:46:45.948 first coming to the United States if 00:46:45.948 --> 00:46:49.241 any where, and secondly is that necessarily 00:46:49.241 --> 00:46:50.586 a good thing or not? 00:46:50.586 --> 00:46:53.785 Well, you know, going back to your comment 00:46:53.785 --> 00:46:56.174 about nature being nasty and brutish, 00:46:56.174 --> 00:47:02.160 if the United States government is so 00:47:02.160 --> 00:47:06.479 stupid as to not focus on the well being 00:47:06.479 --> 00:47:10.339 of its population, then all of the chaos 00:47:10.339 --> 00:47:13.459 that occurs in the United States has been 00:47:13.459 --> 00:47:16.251 brought on by the U.S. government and what's 00:47:16.251 --> 00:47:19.640 going to happen is the states are going to 00:47:19.640 --> 00:47:22.620 devolve. They are going to begin nullifying 00:47:22.620 --> 00:47:24.320 federal regulations. They're going to be 00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:26.886 ending federal ownership of land. 00:47:26.886 --> 00:47:28.493 The federal government was intended to 00:47:28.493 --> 00:47:30.573 be a kind of administrative convenience. 00:47:30.634 --> 00:47:33.384 It's the United States of America, not the 00:47:33.384 --> 00:47:37.679 united people of America. It was the states 00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:40.822 that created the federal government and 00:47:40.822 --> 00:47:43.320 I believe the future is going to eventually 00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:46.240 see the federal government forbidden from 00:47:46.240 --> 00:47:49.897 owning land or taxing citizens directly. 00:47:49.897 --> 00:47:53.507 And the states will be providing a portion 00:47:53.507 --> 00:47:56.815 funding for services of common concern. 00:47:56.815 --> 00:48:00.069 I expect the U.S. military to be cut back, 00:48:00.069 --> 00:48:03.981 not quite to Canada's scale, but I expect 00:48:03.981 --> 00:48:07.580 some major, major cuts in how we spend 00:48:07.580 --> 00:48:09.368 money. I expect an end to borrowing. 00:48:09.368 --> 00:48:13.600 I expect a balanced budget. We're, I mean, 00:48:13.600 --> 00:48:16.765 we've literally been living a criminal dream. 00:48:16.765 --> 00:48:21.360 Okay, but, to me, what you're saying 00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:25.496 sounds like, I mean, from a former political 00:48:25.496 --> 00:48:28.673 scientist, as I am, the definition of a state 00:48:28.673 --> 00:48:31.996 is "that body which has the monopoly over 00:48:31.996 --> 00:48:34.001 the organized means of violence." 00:48:34.001 --> 00:48:36.990 In a certain graphical.. (inaudible) 00:48:36.990 --> 00:48:39.495 Well McIver wrote a wonderful book, 00:48:39.495 --> 00:48:42.055 "The Origin of the State" and he talks about 00:48:42.055 --> 00:48:44.846 a number of functions not just the ownership 00:48:44.846 --> 00:48:47.768 of violence. Chris Hedges wrote a book 00:48:47.768 --> 00:48:50.680 recently on wages of rebellion and, of course, 00:48:50.680 --> 00:48:55.179 Russell Brand has written a wonderful book 00:48:55.179 --> 00:48:58.320 on revolution. Revolutions happen when 00:48:58.320 --> 00:48:59.059 three things ... 00:48:59.059 --> 00:49:00.059 The comedian Russell Brand? 00:49:00.059 --> 00:49:00.847 What? 00:49:00.847 --> 00:49:05.452 Yes. Yes. He wrote a book that I reviewed on 00:49:05.452 --> 00:49:08.313 revolution. I liked it very much. Three 00:49:08.313 --> 00:49:11.141 things are coming together. First is 00:49:11.141 --> 00:49:14.987 concentrated wealth together with unemployment 00:49:14.987 --> 00:49:16.789 which is no less then twenty three percent 00:49:16.789 --> 00:49:19.548 in the United States today. In some groups it's 00:49:19.548 --> 00:49:23.027 forty percent. Single Mom's with a kid, 00:49:23.027 --> 00:49:25.681 people of colour, young people with new 00:49:25.681 --> 00:49:27.304 college degrees and older guys like myself 00:49:27.304 --> 00:49:29.960 it's forty percent unemployment. Okay? So, 00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:30.867 concentrate... 00:49:30.867 --> 00:49:33.237 Why do official statistics are so different? 00:49:33.237 --> 00:49:34.930 Because the government lies. 00:49:34.930 --> 00:49:37.561 The government doesn't count everybody 00:49:37.561 --> 00:49:39.408 that's given up looking for work, doesn't 00:49:39.408 --> 00:49:41.725 count people are holding three part time 00:49:41.725 --> 00:49:44.640 jobs with no benefits. It's literally a 00:49:44.640 --> 00:49:46.873 theatre, I mean Chris Hedges wrote a 00:49:46.873 --> 00:49:49.315 wonderful book called "Empire of Illusion" 00:49:49.315 --> 00:49:51.639 The End of Literacy and the Triumph of 00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:55.381 Spectacle. More recently he's written a 00:49:55.381 --> 00:49:57.060 book called "Wages of Rebellion" which 00:49:57.060 --> 00:49:58.944 contains the third condition for revolutiion. 00:49:58.944 --> 00:50:02.010 The first two are concentration of wealth 00:50:02.010 --> 00:50:03.560 and illegitimate government in the eyes of 00:50:03.560 --> 00:50:08.121 the people. The third is when the military 00:50:08.121 --> 00:50:11.532 and law enforcement stop enforcing the law 00:50:11.532 --> 00:50:17.701 and no longer support the elites in their 00:50:17.701 --> 00:50:20.676 control of the population, we are very 00:50:20.676 --> 00:50:21.921 close to that point. 00:50:21.921 --> 00:50:27.590 But to me that sounds like a very concerning (inaudible) thing (inaudible)... you know, 00:50:27.590 --> 00:50:36.546 to me, that sounds like a civil war. I mean, one of the French 00:50:36.546 --> 00:50:40.220 revolutionaries, I can't remember who it was, 00:50:40.220 --> 00:50:42.362 but he said, "Revolution is a blood thirsty 00:50:42.362 --> 00:50:44.669 monster that once let out, you cannot easily 00:50:44.669 --> 00:50:46.442 put back in." 00:50:46.442 --> 00:50:47.728 It's true but... 00:50:47.728 --> 00:50:49.840 all of them got guillotinized in the end. 00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:52.161 Well, let me point out to you the difference 00:50:52.161 --> 00:50:55.018 between a civil war and a war of succession. 00:50:55.018 --> 00:50:59.252 A civil war is one where you are trying to 00:50:59.252 --> 00:51:02.400 become the owner of the state and have a 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.977 monopoly on violence and be in control 00:51:04.977 --> 00:51:10.200 of everything. A war of succession is much 00:51:10.200 --> 00:51:14.104 easier to win. A war of succession says 00:51:14.104 --> 00:51:17.727 do what you want, I'm out of here. You no 00:51:17.727 --> 00:51:19.931 longer have authority in my state. 00:51:19.931 --> 00:51:22.381 Take the state of Texas for example, 00:51:22.381 --> 00:51:25.356 that is a state that could very, very 00:51:25.356 --> 00:51:27.584 easily kick the federal government out 00:51:27.584 --> 00:51:30.280 and there is absolutely nothing Washington 00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:31.277 can do about that. 00:51:31.277 --> 00:51:33.846 Really, but Washington commandeers the 00:51:33.846 --> 00:51:36.240 army, Texas has just some militia. 00:51:36.240 --> 00:51:40.632 Texas has the Texas National Guard and 00:51:40.632 --> 00:51:43.699 I think you will find that two out of three 00:51:43.699 --> 00:51:46.486 U.S. soldiers will not fire on U.S. citizens. 00:51:46.486 --> 00:51:49.720 I hope so, but I'm not sure about that 00:51:49.720 --> 00:51:53.830 because if you look at the1960's, there was 00:51:53.830 --> 00:51:58.088 this famous case, I forget which University 00:51:58.088 --> 00:51:59.265 was it that...(inaudible) 00:51:59.265 --> 00:52:00.412 Kent State. 00:52:00.412 --> 00:52:03.844 Right. And, people got killed and those 00:52:03.844 --> 00:52:05.423 were protesters and many of those... 00:52:05.423 --> 00:52:07.760 One person got killed and it created 00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:11.653 national outrage. Look, the times have 00:52:11.653 --> 00:52:14.637 changed. I mean the videotaping of 00:52:14.637 --> 00:52:15.989 Rodney King. 00:52:15.989 --> 00:52:18.117 Look how many black people get shot 00:52:18.117 --> 00:52:19.436 all the time. 00:52:19.436 --> 00:52:22.463 And what is happening now is that the 00:52:22.463 --> 00:52:25.773 police are now under scrutiny. I mean, 00:52:25.773 --> 00:52:27.959 we, the police killed 140 people in 00:52:27.959 --> 00:52:31.754 March of last year. What's happening 00:52:31.754 --> 00:52:34.845 is that the internet is making cell phone 00:52:34.845 --> 00:52:38.110 cameras a major resource for citizens 00:52:38.110 --> 00:52:43.798 and it is helping share outrage. Where I 00:52:43.798 --> 00:52:47.632 think we're going and I'm actually optimistic, 00:52:47.632 --> 00:52:49.831 because for example Lady Lynn Rothschild 00:52:49.831 --> 00:52:53.071 ran a conference on inclusive capitalism. 00:52:53.071 --> 00:52:56.800 That's code for stop the pitchforks. There are 00:52:56.800 --> 00:52:59.289 silicone valley billionaires talking about 00:52:59.289 --> 00:53:02.157 redemptive capitalism. That's code for 00:53:02.157 --> 00:53:03.888 stop the pitchforks. 00:53:03.888 --> 00:53:07.400 Tony Blair use to call that capitalism with 00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:08.604 a human face ... 00:53:08.604 --> 00:53:11.281 Or compassionate capitalism. Frankly, I 00:53:11.281 --> 00:53:13.604 think capitalism is a bad term that should 00:53:13.604 --> 00:53:17.833 be ex-sponged, because laborism is the 00:53:17.833 --> 00:53:20.440 human side of it. I think we need to 00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:23.391 reorient our economies to people and 00:53:23.391 --> 00:53:26.524 communities and we need to get away from 00:53:26.524 --> 00:53:31.558 these, these, huge supply chains that have 00:53:31.558 --> 00:53:34.040 absolutely no respect for true costs. 00:53:34.040 --> 00:53:36.851 If you look at a single...It took one of my 00:53:36.851 --> 00:53:40.354 guys a whole year to identify the true cost 00:53:40.354 --> 00:53:43.614 of a single cotton t-shirt. And, I include 00:53:43.614 --> 00:53:45.524 that in your article, in the article that 00:53:45.524 --> 00:53:45.842 I did for you. 00:53:45.842 --> 00:53:46.360 Yes. 00:53:46.360 --> 00:53:49.110 I mean, a single cotton t-shirt has 00:53:49.110 --> 00:53:51.520 x gallons of water and all this fuel 00:53:51.520 --> 00:53:53.876 and toxins and child labor. 00:53:53.876 --> 00:53:58.138 We need to start doing more localized 00:53:58.138 --> 00:54:00.447 manufacturing. I mean Buckminster Fuller 00:54:00.447 --> 00:54:03.393 was the first person to say, that most 00:54:03.393 --> 00:54:05.371 people's jobs are not worth the petrol 00:54:05.371 --> 00:54:07.961 they use to get to and from work. 00:54:07.961 --> 00:54:12.833 That's a very profound observation. 00:54:12.833 --> 00:54:17.548 I would agree like with a couple of street 00:54:17.548 --> 00:54:19.884 blocks in New York City and here in Toronto 00:54:19.884 --> 00:54:22.374 we call it Bay Street by the way. We don't 00:54:22.374 --> 00:54:24.444 call it Wall Street we call it Bay Street. 00:54:24.444 --> 00:54:27.808 I would agree with that mostly, but 00:54:27.808 --> 00:54:33.000 I don't know. Especially for the Texan 00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:37.334 example, going back again to it. I don't 00:54:37.334 --> 00:54:40.840 see Texas going to laborism any time soon, 00:54:40.840 --> 00:54:43.886 myself. I see Texas even if it succeeds, 00:54:43.886 --> 00:54:47.506 being very kind of laissez-faire, hard core 00:54:47.506 --> 00:54:51.230 Baptist, Presbyterian, Capit... 00:54:51.230 --> 00:54:55.201 Laissez-faire is the key term. Live and let live, 00:54:55.201 --> 00:55:01.030 But laissez-faire is kind of the libertarian 00:55:01.030 --> 00:55:03.049 pro-capitalist moniker isn't it? 00:55:03.049 --> 00:55:06.370 Yeah, and one of the concerns, I was going 00:55:06.370 --> 00:55:08.298 to run as a Libertarian candidate for President 00:55:08.298 --> 00:55:10.245 but it became clear, they didn't want me. 00:55:10.245 --> 00:55:13.650 One of the problems with Libertarians is 00:55:13.650 --> 00:55:17.255 that they don't understand communitarianism. 00:55:17.255 --> 00:55:20.800 It sounds like communism to them. 00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:24.386 Well, they're so individual that they think 00:55:24.386 --> 00:55:27.665 that an individual who is owning land 00:55:27.665 --> 00:55:29.833 for example at the beginning of a river 00:55:29.833 --> 00:55:32.480 has the right to crap in that river 00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:36.119 and never mind the people downstream. 00:55:36.119 --> 00:55:41.281 So, you have to have a community spirit 00:55:41.281 --> 00:55:44.646 in which you have holistic analytics and 00:55:44.646 --> 00:55:48.473 true cost economics and everybody understands 00:55:48.473 --> 00:55:51.960 what the costs and the benefits are for 00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:54.800 having civilized codes of behavior. 00:55:54.800 --> 00:55:57.259 Okay, let's move on our conversation here 00:55:57.259 --> 00:56:01.175 to a couple of examples and a couple of 00:56:01.175 --> 00:56:04.330 terms, terms that you use in your book that 00:56:04.330 --> 00:56:08.397 important, I believe. Let me just bring 00:56:08.397 --> 00:56:10.570 in a couple of criticisms or critical 00:56:10.570 --> 00:56:14.035 points of view. So if we are going 00:56:14.035 --> 00:56:16.060 Open Source Everything, for example, 00:56:16.060 --> 00:56:18.011 one of the things that we are open sourcing, 00:56:18.011 --> 00:56:20.746 engineering, software engineering, all of 00:56:20.746 --> 00:56:24.061 software, etc..etc... So, let me ask you first, 00:56:24.061 --> 00:56:26.226 Are you a Linux user yourself? 00:56:26.226 --> 00:56:30.066 No, but my next computer is going to be an 00:56:30.066 --> 00:56:32.607 open source computer that only runs one 00:56:32.607 --> 00:56:36.120 program at a time. With no Microsoft. 00:56:36.120 --> 00:56:38.377 I still have a computer that's seven years 00:56:38.377 --> 00:56:42.274 old. So I'm still using my company computer. 00:56:42.274 --> 00:56:44.221 And, what OS is it running? 00:56:44.221 --> 00:56:47.278 It's Microsoft. 00:56:47.278 --> 00:56:49.115 It's Windows. 00:56:49.115 --> 00:56:51.235 Yeah. Which is horrible. In fact, I just 00:56:51.235 --> 00:56:54.434 found out if I deleted all the Windows Live 00:56:54.434 --> 00:56:56.065 stuff, my computer runs better. 00:56:56.065 --> 00:57:00.440 One of the shortfalls that we've had in 00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:02.974 recent years is, is we haven't had a proper 00:57:02.974 --> 00:57:05.774 open source laptop. Now there are a couple. 00:57:05.774 --> 00:57:08.754 There's a company, a penguin company, 00:57:08.754 --> 00:57:11.136 that builds an open source laptop. There's 00:57:11.136 --> 00:57:13.121 another company that just came out and 00:57:13.121 --> 00:57:15.096 they build a laptop in which they advertise 00:57:15.096 --> 00:57:17.986 that every single software and hardware 00:57:17.986 --> 00:57:19.351 has no back doors. 00:57:19.351 --> 00:57:21.832 Yeah, and those are all Linux based. 00:57:21.832 --> 00:57:24.200 I mean, no, what I meant to say is they 00:57:24.200 --> 00:57:25.991 have no messaging, they have non of this 00:57:25.991 --> 00:57:27.902 unauthorized stuff that goes on in the 00:57:27.902 --> 00:57:29.568 background. One of the things that 00:57:29.568 --> 00:57:33.107 infuriates me about Microsoft is all of 00:57:33.107 --> 00:57:36.003 the processes are running without control 00:57:36.003 --> 00:57:38.001 when all I want to do is type a memo. 00:57:38.001 --> 00:57:41.055 That's the only thing I want running, not 00:57:41.055 --> 00:57:43.803 all that other stuff, but no, I'm not a coder, 00:57:43.803 --> 00:57:45.781 I am more of a meta-guy. 00:57:45.781 --> 00:57:50.576 Yes. Yes. Clearly. But, so anyway, so you're 00:57:50.576 --> 00:57:52.822 leaning toward Linux but you're not quite 00:57:52.822 --> 00:57:55.965 there yet. Because, the reason that I ask 00:57:55.965 --> 00:57:57.795 this or one of the reasons anyway was that 00:57:57.795 --> 00:58:01.982 I don't know. You've read a lot of books, 00:58:01.982 --> 00:58:03.795 a lot of books. Have you read Jaron Lanier's, 00:58:03.795 --> 00:58:07.393 "I Am Not a Gadget" and then I forget what 00:58:07.393 --> 00:58:08.471 his latest ... 00:58:08.471 --> 00:58:11.740 I like him very much. He has a chapter in 00:58:11.740 --> 00:58:13.721 a book that I published called, 00:58:13.721 --> 00:58:16.194 "Collective Intelligence, Creating A Prosperous 00:58:16.194 --> 00:58:19.514 World at Peace". I know him and I like him. 00:58:19.514 --> 00:58:22.270 He's a big opponent of open source software, 00:58:22.270 --> 00:58:24.881 he says in his book that all of the 00:58:24.881 --> 00:58:28.762 innovation, historically speaking, has 00:58:28.762 --> 00:58:31.265 happened in for-profit software and 00:58:31.265 --> 00:58:34.227 the open source community at best has 00:58:34.227 --> 00:58:38.245 always been just following behind and 00:58:38.245 --> 00:58:42.037 kind of implementing the innovation that 00:58:42.037 --> 00:58:44.083 has been done by (inaudible) ... 00:58:44.083 --> 00:58:46.160 Well I would disagree with him and 00:58:46.160 --> 00:58:49.920 I'll tell you why. Time is the one 00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:52.280 strategic variable that cannot be bought 00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:55.844 and cannot be replaced. Time really matters. 00:58:55.844 --> 00:59:01.155 And, right now all of the proprietary technology 00:59:01.155 --> 00:59:05.432 if we wanted to transfer it to the five billion 00:59:05.432 --> 00:59:09.545 poor, it's unaffordable, it's not interoperable, 00:59:09.545 --> 00:59:10.885 and it will not scale. 00:59:10.885 --> 00:59:12.615 You think open source can do that? 00:59:12.615 --> 00:59:16.117 Yeah. I do. Yes I do and in fact I proposed 00:59:16.117 --> 00:59:19.814 an Open Source Technology's Agency in a 00:59:19.814 --> 00:59:22.480 memorandum which I link in this artlicle 00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:24.105 that I've given you. 00:59:24.105 --> 00:59:26.396 And, why would it be able to accomplish such 00:59:26.396 --> 00:59:28.293 scaling for five billion people whereas, 00:59:28.293 --> 00:59:32.513 the alternatives from be it Microsoft or 00:59:32.513 --> 00:59:34.106 be it Apple will not? 00:59:34.106 --> 00:59:38.640 Because it's open. Because it's adaptable, 00:59:38.640 --> 00:59:41.800 cause it's transparent. Because it will 00:59:41.800 --> 00:59:45.040 essentially harness the distributed intelligence of the 00:59:45.040 --> 00:59:47.120 five billion poor. See part of the problem 00:59:47.120 --> 00:59:52.079 with proprietary technology is it's not 00:59:52.079 --> 00:59:55.315 teaching people how to fish. It's giving them 00:59:55.315 --> 00:59:58.241 a closed program. It's giving them a 00:59:58.241 --> 01:00:01.903 closed box. If you give them an open box 01:00:01.903 --> 01:00:04.112 then they will invent new things with it. 01:00:04.112 --> 01:00:07.745 And I don't have all the answers, but what 01:00:07.745 --> 01:00:10.078 I do know with certainty is that what we 01:00:10.078 --> 01:00:12.545 are doing now is not working and it's not 01:00:12.545 --> 01:00:14.500 scalable. Now I wrote a white paper for 01:00:14.500 --> 01:00:16.041 the United Nations called, 01:00:16.041 --> 01:00:17.835 "Beyond Data Monitoring" and that's also 01:00:17.835 --> 01:00:20.158 linked in this article that I've done for you. 01:00:20.158 --> 01:00:24.022 And, I make the point that the current plan 01:00:24.022 --> 01:00:26.523 to achieve the sustainability development 01:00:26.523 --> 01:00:29.896 goals is ridicules. Not only are the donor 01:00:29.896 --> 01:00:32.100 promises not going to materialize, but 01:00:32.100 --> 01:00:34.879 eighty to ninety percent of the money is 01:00:34.879 --> 01:00:36.850 then consumed by United Nations and 01:00:36.850 --> 01:00:39.800 intermediate organizations. Less than ten 01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:41.587 percent of the money gets to the village 01:00:41.587 --> 01:00:44.556 level. Now if you combine an open source 01:00:44.556 --> 01:00:47.458 everything approach together with what 01:00:47.458 --> 01:00:49.521 Ghani from Afghanistan has recommended, 01:00:49.521 --> 01:00:51.921 which is electronic bank accounts at the village 01:00:51.921 --> 01:00:55.468 level, then you can put one hundred percent of 01:00:55.468 --> 01:00:59.520 the money to the village level and bypass all 01:00:59.520 --> 01:01:01.463 these intermediaries that are buying 01:01:01.463 --> 01:01:03.142 themselves first class tickets around the 01:01:03.142 --> 01:01:03.733 world. 01:01:03.733 --> 01:01:07.832 Yeah, that's a good point per say. 01:01:07.832 --> 01:01:09.850 I think the whole idea of an 01:01:09.850 --> 01:01:12.383 open source world is you move away from 01:01:12.383 --> 01:01:14.022 the fenced commons. 01:01:14.022 --> 01:01:17.867 I mean, proprietary technology is a way of 01:01:17.867 --> 01:01:21.741 fencing the commons and it is too 01:01:21.741 --> 01:01:25.121 restrictive for the kind of scale that we 01:01:25.121 --> 01:01:26.850 need to achieve in the next ten years. 01:01:26.850 --> 01:01:29.553 You see, and I agree with you entirely on 01:01:29.553 --> 01:01:32.798 the theoretical end of things and I've been a, 01:01:32.798 --> 01:01:35.477 a strong sympathizer to open source software 01:01:35.477 --> 01:01:38.675 yet, I've been using Microsoft myself and 01:01:38.675 --> 01:01:41.496 the last time I did actually a deeper analysis 01:01:41.496 --> 01:01:44.923 on the potential for me migrating to Linux 01:01:44.923 --> 01:01:47.361 was maybe a couple of years ago and at the 01:01:47.361 --> 01:01:50.181 time there were all kinds of issues with 01:01:50.181 --> 01:01:54.295 drivers for video cards and you know, video 01:01:54.295 --> 01:01:59.720 codecs, which are of course proprietary and 01:01:59.720 --> 01:02:01.680 you know I am a blogger and a podcaster 01:02:01.680 --> 01:02:03.929 so I need to be able to edit my audio and 01:02:03.929 --> 01:02:06.143 or video for things like that... 01:02:06.143 --> 01:02:07.897 But, imagine if you had an open source 01:02:07.897 --> 01:02:09.506 alternative for every single one of those. 01:02:09.506 --> 01:02:13.270 Yes, that would be fantastic, but there 01:02:13.270 --> 01:02:16.583 were problems because of course the 01:02:16.583 --> 01:02:18.680 companies are creating those motes, those 01:02:18.680 --> 01:02:20.514 barriers, those impediments. 01:02:20.514 --> 01:02:24.692 In 1994 we talked about Microsoft and how 01:02:24.692 --> 01:02:27.808 it mutates and migrates it's application 01:02:27.808 --> 01:02:30.787 program interfaces. I mean Microsoft has 01:02:30.787 --> 01:02:32.818 done some great things, but it has set 01:02:32.818 --> 01:02:35.032 information technology back twenty years 01:02:35.032 --> 01:02:39.879 because it has retarded the ability to create 01:02:39.879 --> 01:02:41.920 sense making programs and data 01:02:41.920 --> 01:02:43.899 management programs and all these other 01:02:43.899 --> 01:02:46.667 things. Microsoft basically said, just, 01:02:46.667 --> 01:02:49.466 this is just like Facebook, Facebook is making 01:02:49.466 --> 01:02:51.895 the same mistake with facebook basic. 01:02:51.895 --> 01:02:55.287 Microsoft is saying screw you, were gonna 01:02:55.287 --> 01:02:57.880 go five miles and hour and you better like it. 01:02:57.880 --> 01:03:01.152 That's what Facebook is trying to do to India, 01:03:01.152 --> 01:03:04.723 okay? That's insane. We ought to put Facebook 01:03:04.723 --> 01:03:06.792 and Google and Microsoft out of business. 01:03:06.792 --> 01:03:08.736 And, Cisco and Oracle. 01:03:08.736 --> 01:03:11.573 But, the Indians turn them down I think. 01:03:11.573 --> 01:03:12.486 Didn't they? 01:03:12.486 --> 01:03:14.594 Yes, which is good. Which is very good. 01:03:14.594 --> 01:03:16.960 Yeah, that was quite impressive and I think 01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:19.074 they are going, and even in places like 01:03:19.074 --> 01:03:22.631 certain municipal cities in Germany I noticed 01:03:22.631 --> 01:03:26.255 just in the last couple of years they did 01:03:26.255 --> 01:03:28.218 migrate from Microsoft administrative systems 01:03:28.218 --> 01:03:29.337 to Linux. 01:03:29.337 --> 01:03:32.840 It's not just them, the Norwegians, the Chinese 01:03:32.840 --> 01:03:35.617 a whole bunch of people have said, we should 01:03:35.617 --> 01:03:38.662 not require our citizens to buy a proprietary 01:03:38.662 --> 01:03:40.936 product in order to read government information. 01:03:40.936 --> 01:03:43.513 And that comes back to my vision for 01:03:43.513 --> 01:03:46.478 open access, open data requires open 01:03:46.478 --> 01:03:48.075 software and open hardware, it also requires 01:03:48.075 --> 01:03:52.327 open spectrum. WIFI should be free or this 01:03:52.327 --> 01:03:55.320 new thing LIFI with the light bulbs, it's wonderful. 01:03:55.320 --> 01:03:58.420 Tell us a little bit about what you called 01:03:58.420 --> 01:04:02.342 the panarchy model. Can you unpack that 01:04:02.342 --> 01:04:03.357 for us? 01:04:03.357 --> 01:04:04.249 The what? 01:04:04.249 --> 01:04:05.658 Panarchy. 01:04:05.658 --> 01:04:09.855 Oh panarchy. Well that's more Micheal Bowens's 01:04:09.855 --> 01:04:12.960 thing, but you know panarchy is essentially 01:04:12.960 --> 01:04:18.381 informed self governance. It's extreme democracy. 01:04:18.381 --> 01:04:22.553 It's everybody working together and having 01:04:22.553 --> 01:04:25.099 voice and vote on any issue that they wish. 01:04:25.099 --> 01:04:28.878 Let's us, pick up the pace then. Let's talk 01:04:28.878 --> 01:04:31.339 about the importance of what you call 01:04:31.339 --> 01:04:32.986 ethics and integrity. 01:04:32.986 --> 01:04:36.198 Oh I love that question. There's a guy 01:04:36.198 --> 01:04:39.718 named Robert James Beckett in the 01:04:39.718 --> 01:04:43.548 United Kingdom and you can look him up on 01:04:43.548 --> 01:04:45.463 my website PhiBetaIota, but he talks 01:04:45.463 --> 01:04:48.158 about we're moving from the age of information 01:04:48.158 --> 01:04:52.905 into the age virtue. I agree with that. 01:04:52.905 --> 01:04:56.229 In their book, "The Lessons of History", 01:04:56.229 --> 01:04:59.200 Will and Ariel Durant who wrote the eleven 01:04:59.200 --> 01:05:02.539 volume story of civilization say that morality 01:05:02.539 --> 01:05:08.420 is a strategic asset of incalculable value. 01:05:08.420 --> 01:05:14.994 Ethics is about the truth and transperancy 01:05:14.994 --> 01:05:19.661 and trust. Ethics is how a civilization hands 01:05:19.661 --> 01:05:22.984 on the lessons of history from one generation 01:05:22.984 --> 01:05:29.280 to the next. Ethics is the cultural code 01:05:29.280 --> 01:05:32.976 for getting the most out of any group 01:05:32.976 --> 01:05:35.492 in any situation with the least amount of 01:05:35.492 --> 01:05:37.135 damage and the least amount of waste. 01:05:37.135 --> 01:05:41.125 So, ethics is an operating system. 01:05:41.125 --> 01:05:44.635 I love that actually. Ethics is an operating system. 01:05:44.635 --> 01:05:47.000 Yes. 01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:50.579 Hmmm. I like that very much. Interesting. 01:05:50.579 --> 01:05:53.910 That, I would have to ponder on that and 01:05:53.910 --> 01:05:55.336 maybe I'll steal it from you. 01:05:55.336 --> 01:05:57.276 You drew that out of me. That is the first 01:05:57.276 --> 01:05:59.507 time I have ever said that. 01:05:59.507 --> 01:06:01.835 Awesome. Excellent. And, so perhaps I'm 01:06:01.835 --> 01:06:03.212 contributing a little bit which is... 01:06:03.212 --> 01:06:05.671 Ethics is an operating system. You have my 01:06:05.671 --> 01:06:07.167 permission to take it. 01:06:07.167 --> 01:06:09.873 I'll steal it for sure but, you should... 01:06:09.873 --> 01:06:11.584 No, it's open source. 01:06:11.584 --> 01:06:14.492 Exactly and because it's open source it 01:06:14.492 --> 01:06:18.063 wouldn't be a problem but, tell us a 01:06:18.063 --> 01:06:19.485 little bit about, since we are that topic, 01:06:19.485 --> 01:06:22.646 the importance of bloggers like me, 01:06:22.646 --> 01:06:24.947 because you see I'm a blogger and people 01:06:24.947 --> 01:06:30.236 have often a misconception that I blog 01:06:30.236 --> 01:06:33.200 about technology, but I actually do not blog 01:06:33.200 --> 01:06:35.212 about technology. Technology is just a context. 01:06:35.212 --> 01:06:37.004 I actually blog about ethics. 01:06:37.004 --> 01:06:40.627 Look, I was Ithe opening speaker at 01:06:40.627 --> 01:06:43.774 Hackers on Planet Earth in 1994 01:06:43.774 --> 01:06:48.436 and in my speech I said that hackers were 01:06:48.436 --> 01:06:51.840 the only people who had the combination 01:06:51.840 --> 01:06:56.160 of intelligence and integrity to identify 01:06:56.160 --> 01:06:58.995 deficiencies in communications and computing 01:06:58.995 --> 01:07:00.983 systems that the companies themselves 01:07:00.983 --> 01:07:03.920 were either unaware of or trying to hide. 01:07:03.920 --> 01:07:08.840 And, I said that hackers have a social 01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:13.440 responsibility to reveal those vulnerabilities 01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:17.049 and my proposed approach to them was 01:07:17.049 --> 01:07:20.704 report the vulnerabilities to the company 01:07:20.704 --> 01:07:23.320 and give them thirty days to fix it. And at 01:07:23.320 --> 01:07:26.040 the end of thirty days announce it publicly. 01:07:26.040 --> 01:07:28.720 So, since you are mentioning social 01:07:28.720 --> 01:07:31.160 responsibility, that means that you actually 01:07:31.160 --> 01:07:34.433 would remain in support of people such 01:07:34.433 --> 01:07:37.121 as, for example, Julian Assange or even 01:07:37.121 --> 01:07:38.503 Edward Snowdon. 01:07:38.503 --> 01:07:41.360 Yes and let me point out that I think 01:07:41.360 --> 01:07:43.543 Edward Snowden is a CIA operation. 01:07:43.543 --> 01:07:45.360 Approved by the White House. 01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:47.721 That kind of blows my mind now. 01:07:47.721 --> 01:07:49.586 Well, we could talk about that. 01:07:49.586 --> 01:07:52.761 Look, Snowden was a nobody. He went from being 01:07:52.761 --> 01:07:55.049 a security guard to being a CIA technical 01:07:55.049 --> 01:07:56.876 specialist and placed by Booz Allen in 01:07:56.876 --> 01:08:00.952 Hawaii as a contractor. Snowden, and I've 01:08:00.952 --> 01:08:03.073 met his parents. I like his parents very much. 01:08:03.073 --> 01:08:05.901 They're loyal, patriotic Americans. Snowden 01:08:05.901 --> 01:08:09.640 has all the signs of being a classic operation 01:08:09.640 --> 01:08:13.546 and our state department is stupid, but 01:08:13.546 --> 01:08:15.481 they are not so stupid as to take Snowdens 01:08:15.481 --> 01:08:17.520 passport away so that he has to stay in 01:08:17.520 --> 01:08:21.326 Russia unless we want him to stay in Russia. 01:08:21.326 --> 01:08:22.660 That's an interesting point. 01:08:22.660 --> 01:08:25.596 Okay well, that's another point I need to 01:08:25.596 --> 01:08:27.656 Look, the bottom line is everyone has 01:08:27.656 --> 01:08:32.908 different motivations. I like to quote a CEO in New York 01:08:32.908 --> 01:08:37.382 Bob Seelert from Saatchi and Saatchi Worldwide. 01:08:37.382 --> 01:08:41.511 He says until you get the truth on the 01:08:41.511 --> 01:08:44.506 table, no matter how ugly it is, you're not 01:08:44.506 --> 01:08:48.003 in a position to deal with it. And one of the 01:08:48.003 --> 01:08:50.920 problems that we with western governments 01:08:50.920 --> 01:08:53.511 and western banks and western corporations 01:08:53.511 --> 01:09:00.801 is that they lie. As a persistent characteristic 01:09:00.801 --> 01:09:02.284 of how they do business. 01:09:02.284 --> 01:09:06.986 The war in Iraq was based on nine hundred and 01:09:06.986 --> 01:09:10.593 thirty five now documented lies. There's a 01:09:10.593 --> 01:09:13.641 book by that title, "935 Lies" and what it 01:09:13.641 --> 01:09:16.601 actually talks about is the loss of ethics 01:09:16.601 --> 01:09:19.979 in politics. In theory, and I wrote a 01:09:19.979 --> 01:09:22.540 wonderful post many years ago that 01:09:22.540 --> 01:09:24.546 was featured in a profile in which I talked 01:09:24.546 --> 01:09:30.002 about how politics and intelligence are in 01:09:30.002 --> 01:09:33.300 theory the highest forms of serving the public, 01:09:33.300 --> 01:09:37.714 but only when they are both ethical. 01:09:37.714 --> 01:09:40.641 I agree with you completely on that point too. 01:09:40.641 --> 01:09:43.840 Okay. So, what we have now, Matt Tabbi has 01:09:43.840 --> 01:09:47.974 written a book called "Griftopia", and on 01:09:47.974 --> 01:09:50.675 page 32 he has a quote and my summary of 01:09:50.675 --> 01:09:54.066 that book is on Amazon, in which he says that 01:09:54.066 --> 01:09:58.337 what we have now in the United States is a 01:09:58.337 --> 01:10:02.015 state of griftopia, in which political crime 01:10:02.015 --> 01:10:06.597 and financial crime have merged. The reason 01:10:06.597 --> 01:10:09.280 political crime and financial crime have 01:10:09.280 --> 01:10:12.555 merged is because the citizens have abdicated 01:10:12.555 --> 01:10:15.892 their responsibility for paying attention. 01:10:15.892 --> 01:10:21.120 Now, when I spoke at Gnomedex in 2007. 01:10:21.120 --> 01:10:23.934 Gnomedex is a conference of bloggers. 01:10:23.934 --> 01:10:26.993 I suggested to them that they attach 01:10:26.993 --> 01:10:30.653 themselves like leeches to individual 01:10:30.653 --> 01:10:32.945 corporations and individual issues and 01:10:32.945 --> 01:10:36.318 that they become citizen intelligence 01:10:36.318 --> 01:10:39.160 minutemen, which is a phrase that 01:10:39.160 --> 01:10:43.114 Alisandro Politi coined in 1992 when he 01:10:43.114 --> 01:10:44.871 attended my first conference on 01:10:44.871 --> 01:10:48.359 open source solutions. So in the ideal, 01:10:48.359 --> 01:10:53.520 every citizen should be a citizen intelligence 01:10:53.520 --> 01:10:58.680 professional who is focused with laser like 01:10:58.680 --> 01:11:02.544 intensity so that they become the world's 01:11:02.544 --> 01:11:07.576 top expert on x, y or z and nothing escapes 01:11:07.576 --> 01:11:10.588 their notice. I want to do for open source 01:11:10.588 --> 01:11:12.844 what Linus Torvalds did for Linux. 01:11:12.844 --> 01:11:15.581 In other words I want all the poverty authors 01:11:15.581 --> 01:11:19.220 and all the citizens observing poverty to 01:11:19.220 --> 01:11:21.525 be part of one massive global brain 01:11:21.525 --> 01:11:24.755 poverty slice. The same thing for infectious 01:11:24.755 --> 01:11:26.559 disease, the same thing for environmental 01:11:26.559 --> 01:11:30.279 degradation. The same thing for potholes. 01:11:30.279 --> 01:11:32.739 I mean, there are now wonderful apps 01:11:32.739 --> 01:11:34.425 where a citizen can tap there phone and 01:11:34.425 --> 01:11:37.714 report a pothole. I want to create the world 01:11:37.714 --> 01:11:40.433 brain. And, in fact I have an essay on saving 01:11:40.433 --> 01:11:41.439 civilization. 01:11:41.439 --> 01:11:45.720 Well, tell us a little more about the concept 01:11:45.720 --> 01:11:47.759 of that world brain looks like. 01:11:47.759 --> 01:11:52.359 Well, I own three of the url's, worldbrain.net 01:11:52.359 --> 01:11:55.710 dot org and dot com. And I have a graphic 01:11:55.710 --> 01:11:59.513 on the world brain. Basically worldbrain.net 01:11:59.513 --> 01:12:01.599 should be permenent identities 01:12:01.599 --> 01:12:05.814 that also include anonymity and privacy 01:12:05.814 --> 01:12:09.493 and rights and security and worldbrain.org 01:12:09.493 --> 01:12:12.254 should be, like the global library. It's free 01:12:12.254 --> 01:12:15.778 to everybody. Worldbrain.edu should be 01:12:15.778 --> 01:12:19.102 global education one cell call at a time. 01:12:19.102 --> 01:12:22.319 So, I don't care what it is that you want 01:12:22.319 --> 01:12:24.185 to know you should be able to get it in 01:12:24.185 --> 01:12:27.200 a five minute video that is directly related 01:12:27.200 --> 01:12:29.280 to the moment in time. 01:12:29.280 --> 01:12:32.514 And then worldbrain.com would be a profit 01:12:32.514 --> 01:12:36.069 making activity in which communities would 01:12:36.069 --> 01:12:39.801 agree to crowd fund very specific developments. 01:12:39.801 --> 01:12:42.564 Well, I want to tell your listeners, if they 01:12:42.564 --> 01:12:51.469 go to tinyurl.com/steele-future - and I think 01:12:51.469 --> 01:12:53.491 I have this link in the article that I wrote 01:12:53.491 --> 01:12:57.651 for you. but, steele-future as a tinyurl 01:12:57.651 --> 01:13:00.174 has all of my latest work, including 01:13:00.174 --> 01:13:03.359 the saving civilization essay and that calls 01:13:03.359 --> 01:13:07.241 for a school of future oriented hi-grade 01:13:07.241 --> 01:13:09.839 governance. It calls for a multi-national 01:13:09.839 --> 01:13:12.223 decision support center so that the U.N. 01:13:12.223 --> 01:13:14.279 will stop making decisions based on 01:13:14.279 --> 01:13:17.129 American lies. It calls for an open source 01:13:17.129 --> 01:13:22.904 technologies agency. Let see, what else, 01:13:22.904 --> 01:13:25.160 oh, it calls for a United Nations Open Source 01:13:25.160 --> 01:13:27.315 Decision Support Information Network. 01:13:27.315 --> 01:13:30.142 Eventually, we should be able to connect 01:13:30.142 --> 01:13:32.841 all information and all languages all the time. 01:13:32.841 --> 01:13:35.627 But let me ask you, all of those things so 01:13:35.627 --> 01:13:38.000 far that you said like, open source 01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:41.332 intelligence world brain connecting 01:13:41.332 --> 01:13:43.569 everything, all the knowledge and all the 01:13:43.569 --> 01:13:46.733 languages all the time. All those things to me 01:13:46.733 --> 01:13:48.873 sound like Google. Google. 01:13:48.873 --> 01:13:54.752 No, you know, I, I really like and admire 01:13:54.752 --> 01:13:59.840 Vint Cerf. He and I met in 1992 when I was 01:13:59.840 --> 01:14:02.760 attending The Annual Internet Society Conferences. 01:14:02.760 --> 01:14:06.239 And, I bought Vint sushi before he went to 01:14:06.239 --> 01:14:10.186 the dark side. You know and I said, "Vint, 01:14:10.186 --> 01:14:13.573 for God sakes get Google to give us some 01:14:13.573 --> 01:14:18.021 tools for making sense." And I'm sorry to say 01:14:18.021 --> 01:14:19.669 that hasn't happened. Now you know, now 01:14:19.669 --> 01:14:22.453 are you aware Google started basically on 01:14:22.453 --> 01:14:27.603 the basis of three crimes. Google stole 01:14:27.603 --> 01:14:28.816 the yahoo search engine. 01:14:28.816 --> 01:14:30.490 I don't know about that. 01:14:30.490 --> 01:14:33.936 Yes. They have recently paid one billion 01:14:33.936 --> 01:14:37.600 dollars as a quitclaim, so Google stole 01:14:37.600 --> 01:14:39.822 the yahoo search engine and then modified 01:14:39.822 --> 01:14:43.000 it to become Google. They received funding 01:14:43.000 --> 01:14:45.360 from the CIA Office of Research and Development. 01:14:45.360 --> 01:14:49.113 And they were able to pick up all of the 01:14:49.113 --> 01:14:51.866 AltaVista employees that Hewlitt Packard 01:14:51.866 --> 01:14:55.843 closed down. Those are the three things 01:14:55.843 --> 01:14:57.600 that created Google 01:14:57.600 --> 01:14:59.912 and my friend Stephen Arnold has written 01:14:59.912 --> 01:15:02.464 three books about Google. The Google Trilogy. 01:15:02.464 --> 01:15:05.920 Google, in my view has done some really 01:15:05.920 --> 01:15:09.219 excellent things, but Google is also a fraud. 01:15:09.219 --> 01:15:13.800 It hasn't actually made money. It's operating 01:15:13.800 --> 01:15:20.243 on shareholder cash, okay. Google is driven 01:15:20.243 --> 01:15:24.194 by search engine advertising revenue 01:15:24.194 --> 01:15:29.082 and that is collapsing. I think Google is gone. 01:15:29.082 --> 01:15:32.025 And, frankly I think Facebook is gone 01:15:32.025 --> 01:15:34.636 at some point. If India really, really wanted 01:15:34.636 --> 01:15:36.473 to create a smart nation and smart cities 01:15:36.473 --> 01:15:39.681 they should be harnessing all their universities 01:15:39.681 --> 01:15:42.879 to create the anti-google and the anti-facebook 01:15:42.879 --> 01:15:45.826 and then on top of it put the tools that I've 01:15:45.826 --> 01:15:47.958 identified. Eighteen different tools. 01:15:47.958 --> 01:15:50.600 Well, I can sympathize with sort of the 01:15:50.600 --> 01:15:52.505 desire to have alternatives to Google and 01:15:52.505 --> 01:15:56.453 Facebook and perhaps in sort of the 01:15:56.453 --> 01:15:59.202 open source realm of, but 01:15:59.202 --> 01:16:02.720 that's great, I just don't see the end of either 01:16:02.720 --> 01:16:04.761 Google nor Facebook any time soon. 01:16:04.761 --> 01:16:06.560 Well, I see the end of IBM 01:16:06.560 --> 01:16:09.342 you know, I mean this is gonna happen 01:16:09.342 --> 01:16:13.986 inevitably. Google and Facebook serfed 01:16:13.986 --> 01:16:17.761 the wave perfectly. They are utterly brilliant 01:16:17.761 --> 01:16:20.614 and I don't begrudge them for a moment, 01:16:20.614 --> 01:16:23.592 their great success, but they're not good 01:16:23.592 --> 01:16:26.033 enough and that's my bottom line. 01:16:26.033 --> 01:16:30.422 Okay. Let me ask you this then. First of all, 01:16:30.422 --> 01:16:32.736 it's just a curious question. How in the 01:16:32.736 --> 01:16:35.640 world have you managed to write seventeen hundred 01:16:35.640 --> 01:16:38.349 book reviews? Like, I read a lot of books 01:16:38.349 --> 01:16:42.860 myself, probably in the five to seven, 01:16:42.860 --> 01:16:45.307 eight hundred range maybe... 01:16:45.307 --> 01:16:50.275 Right. Let me say first off when Google, 01:16:50.275 --> 01:16:53.725 I mean when Amazon started the review system, 01:16:53.725 --> 01:16:58.320 I had already written two books and each of 01:16:58.320 --> 01:17:00.801 those two books had a hundred fifty 01:17:00.801 --> 01:17:04.984 annotated bibliographic entries. So I had 01:17:04.984 --> 01:17:08.644 a total of three hundred mini book reviews, 01:17:08.644 --> 01:17:12.160 one paragraph. I loaded all of those to 01:17:12.160 --> 01:17:17.379 Amazon on the fourth of April 2000 and I 01:17:17.379 --> 01:17:20.356 was instantly a top thousand five hundred 01:17:20.356 --> 01:17:22.475 reviewer, because it had just started. 01:17:22.475 --> 01:17:24.799 So that's three hundred reviews right there. 01:17:24.799 --> 01:17:28.520 Then I was invited to speak to a parliament 01:17:28.520 --> 01:17:31.220 in Europe. I can't remember, a French Parliament, 01:17:31.220 --> 01:17:34.027 a German parliament, whatever and I was very 01:17:34.027 --> 01:17:38.179 intimidated, so I read fifty books to get 01:17:38.179 --> 01:17:40.549 ready for this mission and I wrote short 01:17:40.549 --> 01:17:43.060 reviews of those fifty books and I loaded 01:17:43.060 --> 01:17:44.348 that and now we are at three hundred 01:17:44.348 --> 01:17:47.634 and fifty. Then I kind of got hooked and 01:17:47.634 --> 01:17:49.931 buying books is a business expense, so 01:17:49.931 --> 01:17:51.753 there was a time when I was spending 01:17:51.753 --> 01:17:54.061 five thousand dollars a year on books. 01:17:54.061 --> 01:17:56.449 And it basically boiled down to my 01:17:56.449 --> 01:17:59.189 reading one or two books a week. Now I read 01:17:59.189 --> 01:18:03.944 books in three ways. I glance through them 01:18:03.944 --> 01:18:06.456 and if I don't like them at all I just set 01:18:06.456 --> 01:18:07.833 them aside and I don't review them. 01:18:07.833 --> 01:18:11.703 Some books I will read the introduction, 01:18:11.703 --> 01:18:15.366 the conclusion and maybe one or two chapters 01:18:15.366 --> 01:18:17.430 and the table of contents and the index 01:18:17.430 --> 01:18:21.727 and then the... Some books I will start with 01:18:21.727 --> 01:18:25.408 the index and then read all of the end notes 01:18:25.408 --> 01:18:27.976 and then read the entire book word for word. 01:18:27.976 --> 01:18:32.008 So out of the two thousand one hundred or so 01:18:32.008 --> 01:18:35.041 books reviews that I have now, I would say 01:18:35.041 --> 01:18:37.267 I have read every word in at least half 01:18:37.267 --> 01:18:41.915 of them. And the others are partial things 01:18:41.915 --> 01:18:44.660 because at my level with what I know you 01:18:44.660 --> 01:18:49.442 could pick up a book and you can see very 01:18:49.442 --> 01:18:51.665 quickly does this book make an original 01:18:51.665 --> 01:18:55.228 contribution or is this regurgitating stuff 01:18:55.228 --> 01:18:58.473 or whatever... and so my reviews do two 01:18:58.473 --> 01:19:02.127 things; they summarize the book and they 01:19:02.127 --> 01:19:05.080 provide ten links which is the maximum 01:19:05.080 --> 01:19:08.281 allowed by Amazon. So, I've actually created 01:19:08.281 --> 01:19:12.284 a collegy, a non fiction, a collegy of ninety 01:19:12.284 --> 01:19:15.417 eight linked categories of books and if you 01:19:15.417 --> 01:19:18.880 go to phibetaiota.net, at the top you'll 01:19:18.880 --> 01:19:21.152 see the review page and then within that 01:19:21.152 --> 01:19:23.939 review page I have a whole series of lists 01:19:23.939 --> 01:19:27.897 of book reviews, like I have a long list, 01:19:27.897 --> 01:19:31.285 list of lists of books about the future 01:19:31.285 --> 01:19:34.407 and lists of lists of books about the past. 01:19:34.407 --> 01:19:37.880 I have one list of three hundred books on 01:19:37.880 --> 01:19:41.152 secret intelligence. I have another list of 01:19:41.152 --> 01:19:44.733 books on self determination and secession 01:19:44.733 --> 01:19:49.630 and so forth. So, I would certainly say take 01:19:49.630 --> 01:19:52.916 a look at the review page where I also have 01:19:52.916 --> 01:19:56.308 essays on leadership and education and democracy lost. 01:19:56.308 --> 01:19:59.279 And, now give me your homepage, Robert, 01:19:59.279 --> 01:20:01.430 but unfortunately time is advancing here 01:20:01.430 --> 01:20:04.154 I'm going to have to bring our conversation 01:20:04.154 --> 01:20:06.697 to an end, but let me ask you what's the 01:20:06.697 --> 01:20:09.533 best place for our viewers and listeners to find more 01:20:09.533 --> 01:20:11.074 about you and your work. 01:20:11.074 --> 01:20:13.509 Well, I would say the blog which has no 01:20:13.509 --> 01:20:15.840 advertising and offers a free subscription. 01:20:15.840 --> 01:20:19.034 That has over nineteen thousand posts 01:20:19.034 --> 01:20:21.511 from over eight hundred contributors. 01:20:21.511 --> 01:20:24.291 Eighty of which are active now and that 01:20:24.291 --> 01:20:27.159 is PhiBetaIota.net. 01:20:27.159 --> 01:20:28.040 Very good, okay, now link to it. And, then 01:20:31.584 --> 01:20:32.840 the final question that I always have to ask 01:20:32.840 --> 01:20:35.388 my guests on my show is this, "How do we 01:20:35.388 --> 01:20:39.018 wrap up our conversation? We kind of jumped 01:20:39.018 --> 01:20:42.480 all over space and time and subject matters 01:20:42.480 --> 01:20:44.708 and went all kinds of... 01:20:44.708 --> 01:20:46.665 Well, you're going to be publishing an article 01:20:46.665 --> 01:20:51.628 that I have written for you especially and 01:20:51.628 --> 01:20:55.626 what I would say is let's keep the conversation going. 01:20:55.626 --> 01:20:59.290 Let's keep the conversation going. Interesting. 01:20:59.290 --> 01:21:01.842 Okay, I like that. All right and of course, by 01:21:01.842 --> 01:21:04.760 the time this interview gets published, I 01:21:04.760 --> 01:21:06.597 will already have published the article, so... 01:21:06.597 --> 01:21:08.784 Robert Steele thank you very much for 01:21:08.784 --> 01:21:10.253 being with us tonight. 01:21:10.253 --> 01:21:11.867 It's an honour. Thank you. 01:21:11.867 --> 01:21:16.080 (music) 01:21:16.080 --> 01:21:18.197 If you guys enjoyed this a show you can help 01:21:18.197 --> 01:21:20.140 me make it better in a couple of ways, 01:21:20.140 --> 01:21:22.800 you can go and write a review on Itunes 01:21:22.800 --> 01:21:25.195 or you can simply make a donation. 01:21:25.195 --> 01:21:31.763 (music)