0:00:10.080,0:00:13.760 Hello, everybody. Welcome[br]to the Open Translation lounge 0:00:13.800,0:00:18.600 for the TED Found In Translation[br]sessions here at TEDGlobal in Scotland. 0:00:18.640,0:00:21.200 Today, we have two speakers.[br]First for us this week, 0:00:21.240,0:00:24.120 we have An Xiao Mina,[br]who just left the stage minutes ago. 0:00:24.160,0:00:27.960 And Hetain Patel, who actually[br]delivered his talk several days ago. 0:00:28.000,0:00:31.600 Also joining us here on the stage[br]is Coco from Hong Kong, 0:00:31.640,0:00:35.400 Shadia from Mauritius Island,[br]and Jan from the Czech Republic. 0:00:35.440,0:00:40.440 Joining us online, over here,[br]we have Matti from Hong Kong, 0:00:40.480,0:00:43.640 Jason from Hong Kong as well, 0:00:43.680,0:00:46.400 Anna from Italy and Anja from Slovenia. 0:00:46.440,0:00:47.600 - Hi. 0:00:47.640,0:00:49.660 - Welcome. I'm going[br]to start with you, An. 0:00:49.690,0:00:52.400 Fantastic talk,[br]thank you so much for joining us. 0:00:52.440,0:00:55.680 Your talk was all about memes[br]as a means of expression. 0:00:55.720,0:00:59.610 And the examples were really highly[br]localised, but they're also universal. 0:00:59.670,0:01:02.710 Everyone got them immediately.[br]Could you talk about that in the context 0:01:02.730,0:01:04.780 of having all these people[br]from around the world? 0:01:04.800,0:01:08.040 - Sure. I think what's really[br]interesting to me about Internet culture 0:01:08.080,0:01:12.040 is if we think about Hollywood -[br]I grew up partially in the Philippines, 0:01:12.080,0:01:13.520 my family is Filipino-Chinese - 0:01:13.560,0:01:16.560 and I remember travelling around[br]and going to the most rural areas 0:01:16.600,0:01:18.960 of the Philippines,[br]seeing people with Coke bottles 0:01:19.000,0:01:22.560 or watching Hollywood movies.[br]There's always the sense of Hollywood 0:01:22.600,0:01:24.920 or mass media providing[br]a global culture. 0:01:24.960,0:01:27.560 What I'm interested in[br]is Internet culture. 0:01:27.600,0:01:32.840 It's more like a ground up version of[br]that, it's coming from a local version. 0:01:32.880,0:01:35.560 That's why I used the word 'street-art',[br]or hip-hop culture. 0:01:35.600,0:01:39.680 I'm interested in how Internet culture[br]can become this bridge culture. 0:01:39.720,0:01:43.400 Just like I can talk about[br]Arnold Schwarzenegger in rural Uganda, 0:01:43.440,0:01:45.280 or in New York City. 0:01:45.320,0:01:49.000 Just two days ago, I was talking[br]with an Italian, an Indian and then me - 0:01:49.040,0:01:50.680 sounds like an intro to a joke, 0:01:50.720,0:01:55.080 and it was because we were all[br]talking about how people in Italy, in India 0:01:55.120,0:01:58.960 and in Uganda were all filming their[br]ministers of government falling asleep. 0:01:59.000,0:02:00.640 That became an Internet meme. 0:02:00.680,0:02:02.480 It suddenly became this bridge. 0:02:02.520,0:02:04.440 "Oh, your ministers fall asleep, too!" 0:02:04.480,0:02:08.039 And, so, I'm interested in how[br]this Internet culture can be 0:02:08.080,0:02:10.600 a bridge culture[br]that's driven by people. 0:02:10.639,0:02:13.600 It is incredibly local[br]and becomes a bridge for storytelling, 0:02:13.640,0:02:16.240 and maybe even for global,[br]civic engagement, 0:02:16.280,0:02:19.360 global understanding - now I know[br]a little bit more about 0:02:19.400,0:02:21.640 what's going on in India,[br]in a way I can relate to. 0:02:21.680,0:02:25.960 So, that's really what I hope[br]people really got from the talk. 0:02:26.000,0:02:29.120 And kind of what I'm looking at with[br]my founding partner, Jason Li, 0:02:29.160,0:02:32.080 with our new site,[br]called The Civic Beat, is can this be 0:02:32.120,0:02:36.440 a bridge for storytelling, and then,[br]from there, active engagement online. 0:02:36.480,0:02:38.520 And global understanding. 0:02:38.560,0:02:39.720 - Great. 0:02:39.760,0:02:42.400 Actually, I'd like to take[br]a question from the Skype crowd. 0:02:42.440,0:02:45.120 Does anybody have a question[br]An to begin with? 0:02:45.160,0:02:48.560 - I can start,[br]but I don't think I have a question. 0:02:48.600,0:02:53.480 I'd like to comment on this[br]activism side of the argument 0:02:53.520,0:02:58.080 because we recently had[br]some protests in Slovenia 0:02:58.120,0:03:03.160 and it was quite a shock because a lot[br]of people said they would be coming, 0:03:03.200,0:03:05.160 and not a lot of people came. 0:03:05.200,0:03:08.480 So are memes just a form[br]of online activism 0:03:08.520,0:03:11.760 that isn't translated into public space, 0:03:11.800,0:03:15.760 and, therefore, lacks some kind of[br]political legitimacy 0:03:15.800,0:03:18.360 for politicians and the government? 0:03:18.400,0:03:20.960 - That's a really great question. 0:03:21.000,0:03:23.280 It's something I've struggled with a lot 0:03:23.320,0:03:26.520 because it does seem like[br]we're sharing pictures of cats. 0:03:26.560,0:03:28.280 Like, what is this doing? 0:03:28.320,0:03:31.920 You know, one phrase I use,[br]and the reason I brought in this 0:03:31.960,0:03:34.860 essay from Havel, is this notion[br]of a ladder of engagement 0:03:34.880,0:03:38.480 to civic expression.[br]It always starts with little steps. 0:03:38.520,0:03:40.880 And, certainly, many times, 0:03:40.920,0:03:43.960 you see instances where[br]people are talking a lot online. 0:03:44.000,0:03:47.040 And it doesn't seem like[br]they're engaging offline. 0:03:47.080,0:03:48.440 But, then, over time, 0:03:48.480,0:03:52.520 and one of my favourite examples[br]is the sunglasses meme 0:03:52.560,0:03:54.000 that I ended the talk on, 0:03:54.040,0:03:57.480 where everyone was wearing[br]sunglasses for Chen Guangcheng. 0:03:57.520,0:04:00.440 OK, it seems like[br]this is just empty expression, 0:04:00.480,0:04:02.920 it's not going anywhere,[br]nothing's happening. 0:04:02.960,0:04:05.840 But, again, if you think about[br]the context of China, 0:04:05.880,0:04:10.400 where there's heavy suppression of any[br]kind of political-public assembly, 0:04:10.440,0:04:13.280 there is actually reports of people[br]wearing sunglasses 0:04:13.320,0:04:16.160 in a form of flash mob[br]in physical space. 0:04:16.200,0:04:18.920 They actually went to the town where[br]Chen was being held, 0:04:18.959,0:04:20.600 nearby where he was being held, 0:04:20.640,0:04:23.680 and they assembled together,[br]and all wore sunglasses. 0:04:23.720,0:04:26.320 That became a form of[br]physical public assembly. 0:04:26.360,0:04:32.320 So, it's hard to imagine that happening[br]without first the meme popping up. 0:04:32.360,0:04:34.880 So, it doesn't always happen that way, 0:04:34.920,0:04:38.480 but there's so many cases where[br]we're seeing how a meme presages 0:04:38.520,0:04:42.720 any kind of physical action or assembly[br]that it's really convinced me that 0:04:42.760,0:04:45.320 it really is the beginning of[br]a larger engagement. 0:04:45.360,0:04:48.400 And it might be discouraging[br]at the beginning to see people 0:04:48.440,0:04:51.600 clicking and pointing, but I don't[br]want to see that as a dichotomy. 0:04:51.640,0:04:53.560 If you go to a protest wearing a button, 0:04:53.600,0:04:56.000 that meme is very much similar[br]to a button - 0:04:56.040,0:04:57.600 it's a form of visual expression 0:04:57.640,0:05:00.560 that we've seen in all kinds of[br]social movements in history. 0:05:00.600,0:05:02.000 - I'd like to bring in Hetain. 0:05:02.040,0:05:04.480 We were talking yesterday[br]about how, obviously, 0:05:04.520,0:05:06.600 memes are a way[br]of expressing ourselves, 0:05:06.640,0:05:10.120 and how language actually -[br]we express ourselves in different ways. 0:05:10.160,0:05:14.080 The idea of do we have a different[br]identity in every language that we speak. 0:05:14.120,0:05:17.480 - Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of reasons[br]why you might feel as though 0:05:17.520,0:05:20.960 you have a different identity[br]when you speak a different language. 0:05:21.000,0:05:23.200 It might be due to vocabulary. 0:05:23.240,0:05:26.520 So, from my personal experience,[br]if I'm speaking Gujarati, 0:05:26.560,0:05:29.280 an Indian language,[br]there's certain things 0:05:29.320,0:05:31.360 I'm used to talking about[br]in that language 0:05:31.400,0:05:33.800 with my grandmother,[br]domestic things. 0:05:33.840,0:05:36.560 In English, I might talk about[br]a whole different kind of things. 0:05:36.600,0:05:37.960 In French something else. 0:05:38.000,0:05:40.640 So, it might be the kind of topic[br]you speak about, 0:05:40.680,0:05:46.120 and, then, also, something[br]comes in in the vocabulary also, 0:05:46.160,0:05:49.720 in how you think about things,[br]through different languages. 0:05:49.760,0:05:52.680 And I actually think[br]it's not just language. 0:05:52.720,0:05:56.200 Even with one language,[br]you kind of change who you are, 0:05:56.240,0:05:59.120 depending who you talk to anyway.[br]I guess, every day, 0:05:59.160,0:06:02.880 we're performing different[br]versions of ourselves, kind of thing. 0:06:02.920,0:06:05.680 - One of the most popular things[br]I've seen 0:06:05.720,0:06:08.680 is Photoshop remixes of police brutality. 0:06:08.720,0:06:13.240 There's a meme in China[br]called The Fat Cop. 0:06:13.280,0:06:17.160 And there was a protest[br]in Shifang about pollution, 0:06:17.200,0:06:20.240 and there's this fat cop[br]that was hitting people. 0:06:20.280,0:06:22.480 And, obviously, very frightening. 0:06:22.520,0:06:26.040 People took that cop and started[br]putting him into other images, 0:06:26.080,0:06:29.160 cos he looked like he was running, so[br]they put him into, like, movies 0:06:29.200,0:06:32.080 where he looks like he's chasing after[br]Tom Cruise, they put him into 0:06:32.120,0:06:33.600 all these weird images. 0:06:33.640,0:06:37.600 And a really similar thing happened[br]in the United States where, 0:06:37.640,0:06:39.160 I don't know who's from the US, 0:06:39.200,0:06:42.080 but if you remember the pepper[br]spraying cop, the famous cop who 0:06:42.120,0:06:45.640 was pepper spraying students who were[br]engaging in the Occupy movement. 0:06:45.680,0:06:49.400 And he looked like he was[br]literally watering the plants. 0:06:49.440,0:06:52.640 And, so, people took that image of him,[br]again, a terrifying image, 0:06:52.680,0:06:56.030 and they took that terror away[br]by putting it into a quantitative humour 0:06:56.050,0:07:00.320 and started Photoshopping him[br]into images of him, like, 0:07:00.360,0:07:04.160 watering the roses,[br]or spray painting in a movie. 0:07:04.200,0:07:08.360 So, those images, they break language. 0:07:08.400,0:07:11.760 I know exactly what's going on in China,[br]I know exactly what is happening, 0:07:11.800,0:07:14.480 even if I'm looking at[br]a meme that's coming from Egypt, 0:07:14.520,0:07:16.440 and I don't speak the language, 0:07:16.480,0:07:19.870 but I can see and understand it,[br]in a way, because it's a visual language, 0:07:19.890,0:07:22.990 and that's really compelling to me. 0:07:23.020,0:07:25.980 - I want to bring in someone from Skype.[br]Anna, I'd like to bring you. 0:07:25.990,0:07:28.640 Do you have a question for either Hetain[br]or four An Xiao Mina? 0:07:28.680,0:07:30.560 - Yes, hello. 0:07:30.600,0:07:36.320 I was wondering if you think there's any[br]difference between memes in China 0:07:36.360,0:07:41.440 and in the other countries,[br]just because China Internet is censored? 0:07:41.480,0:07:44.600 - I think we see a lot of creativity[br]because of censorship. 0:07:44.640,0:07:47.760 A lot of the talks this week were[br]talking about how creativity 0:07:47.800,0:07:49.520 and innovation come out of necessity. 0:07:49.560,0:07:53.280 And, so, China has two things... China's[br]Internet has two things going for it. 0:07:53.320,0:07:55.440 It's one of the[br]world's largest Internets. 0:07:55.480,0:07:58.520 I think it may have recently become[br]the world's largest Internet. 0:07:58.560,0:08:01.880 The infrastructure is there to support[br]a lot of creativity and remixing. 0:08:01.920,0:08:05.120 Then, on the other side, it's one[br]of the world's most censored Internets. 0:08:05.160,0:08:09.480 So, you have these two factors.[br]A lot of people can be creative online, 0:08:09.520,0:08:12.640 but then their voices[br]are stamped on more often. 0:08:12.680,0:08:16.160 So, recently, there were images[br]of Tiananmen Square - 0:08:16.200,0:08:20.480 I don't know if you remember[br]the infamous tank image, three tanks, 0:08:20.520,0:08:22.320 and the man standing up to it - 0:08:22.360,0:08:25.000 there were two images[br]that stuck out to me. 0:08:25.040,0:08:28.200 One was someone had replaced[br]the tanks with a kitten 0:08:28.240,0:08:29.680 looking at the person. 0:08:29.720,0:08:33.760 And another one, they actually replaced[br]the tanks with rubber ducks, 0:08:33.799,0:08:36.200 and rubber ducks had become[br]a meme earlier because 0:08:36.240,0:08:39.919 there's a big rubber duck floating around[br]in Hong Kong, an art installation. 0:08:39.960,0:08:45.520 And, so, that image is incredibly,[br]incredibly censored in China. 0:08:45.560,0:08:49.280 But by creating these other ways,[br]putting in a cat, 0:08:49.320,0:08:52.400 I mean, what goes more viral[br]on the Internet than a cat? 0:08:52.440,0:08:55.120 It's a way to get the message[br]out there, really quickly. 0:08:55.160,0:08:58.920 Of course, it got deleted pretty quickly,[br]but it also spread pretty quickly. 0:08:58.960,0:09:04.480 So, I don't want to say that[br]creativity is different. 0:09:04.520,0:09:07.760 Part of my talk is that there's actually[br]a lot of really similar creativity 0:09:07.800,0:09:10.360 around the world, but, in China,[br]you do have this element 0:09:10.400,0:09:16.440 of censorship that compels creativity[br]in more frequent cases, at least for now. 0:09:16.480,0:09:18.120 - OK, thank you.[br]- I think, you know, 0:09:18.160,0:09:23.120 I've only looked at three contexts -[br]at China, a little bit of Philippines, 0:09:23.160,0:09:25.640 and Uganda,[br]and then United States. 0:09:25.680,0:09:28.120 And there are some similar themes. 0:09:28.160,0:09:32.720 Police brutality tends to be actually[br]a similar theme across all of these areas. 0:09:32.760,0:09:35.360 And growing up in Los Angeles,[br]I understand why that is. 0:09:35.400,0:09:37.640 I saw police brutality myself. 0:09:37.680,0:09:39.800 It's a frightening situation. 0:09:39.840,0:09:41.840 So, using humour diffuses that, 0:09:41.880,0:09:46.680 so, it becomes a very common[br]way to express ourselves 0:09:46.720,0:09:53.120 and often people, especially in areas[br]where there's limited free speech, 0:09:53.160,0:09:57.080 people will remix images of their leaders,[br]so you see a lot of that. 0:09:57.120,0:09:58.840 But, often, it's very local. 0:09:58.880,0:10:02.120 Some of the more compelling memes[br]coming out of Sub-Saharan Africa, 0:10:02.160,0:10:04.440 I showed one,[br]Tweet Like A Foreign Journalist, 0:10:04.480,0:10:07.840 where the Spanish Prime Minister[br]had said... 0:10:07.880,0:10:10.360 The Spanish economy was tanking, 0:10:10.400,0:10:14.360 the Spanish Prime Minister sent a text[br]message to his finance minister 0:10:14.400,0:10:17.280 and he said, "Don't worry -[br]Spain is not Uganda." 0:10:17.320,0:10:20.520 Uganda's pounced on this. They started[br]saying, "Uganda is not Spain." 0:10:20.560,0:10:23.880 And they started posting statistics[br]about how Uganda's economy is rising, 0:10:23.920,0:10:25.280 all these kinds of issues. 0:10:25.320,0:10:28.880 That's something really common[br]I've seen in Sub-Saharan Africa, 0:10:28.920,0:10:33.800 because Sub-Saharan Africa in particular[br]is misrepresented in global media 0:10:33.840,0:10:35.400 much more often than other places. 0:10:35.440,0:10:37.440 So, yes, there are some themes, 0:10:37.480,0:10:40.840 but you can find very local ones[br]that are really interesting. 0:10:40.880,0:10:44.000 - We have a question from Hong Kong.[br]Actually, Matti. 0:10:44.040,0:10:47.000 - Do you think is this a new[br]phenomenon, 0:10:47.040,0:10:51.720 merged with the Internet,[br]or do you have 0:10:51.760,0:10:57.720 any pre-Internet samples of remixing,[br]for example picture of leaders, 0:10:57.760,0:10:59.640 and stuff like that? 0:11:00.600,0:11:02.160 - Oh, yeah, absolutely. 0:11:02.200,0:11:05.800 What's new about the Internet[br]is that it's faster. 0:11:05.840,0:11:10.760 I haven't seen anything in history[br]that's filled with such weirdness. 0:11:10.800,0:11:15.600 I haven't seen cats and llamas[br]and dogs and pigs. 0:11:15.640,0:11:19.490 But I was just talking with someone,[br]since we're in the UK, this is appropriate, 0:11:19.510,0:11:21.840 there's this British publisher, 0:11:21.880,0:11:25.600 I forget the century,[br]but his name was John Wilkes. 0:11:25.640,0:11:28.960 He was publishing[br]the North Briton newspaper. 0:11:29.000,0:11:33.160 It was considered at the time[br]a very edgy newspaper. 0:11:33.200,0:11:37.880 The 45th issue angered the government[br]so much that they destroyed 0:11:37.920,0:11:41.840 all the printing presses[br]and they censored the magazine. 0:11:41.880,0:11:44.480 And then they arrested John Wilkes. 0:11:44.520,0:11:46.760 But, then, shortly after he's arrested, 0:11:46.800,0:11:48.960 just like the sunflower seeds,[br]the number 45 0:11:49.000,0:11:51.520 started popping up on walls and, again, 0:11:51.560,0:11:53.760 this is why I bring that analogy[br]with street art, 0:11:53.800,0:11:56.160 that there is a long history of people 0:11:56.200,0:11:59.320 taking symbols and images[br]and putting them out 0:11:59.360,0:12:02.640 as a way of speaking out, even when[br]that message is being suppressed. 0:12:02.680,0:12:05.640 - I just want to bring in[br]some of our translator panellists. 0:12:05.680,0:12:08.240 Do you have a question[br]for either Hetain or An? 0:12:08.280,0:12:12.880 - Our president gets mocked a lot,[br]but, like, he never... 0:12:12.920,0:12:18.000 I always thought if he can reply[br]with a humour, 0:12:18.040,0:12:21.640 it would be really nice[br]to solve the situation, 0:12:21.680,0:12:25.320 so I'm wondering, is there any example 0:12:25.360,0:12:30.840 of how government can handle[br]this in a rather humorous way? 0:12:30.880,0:12:34.160 - Humorous way,[br]yeah, that's a great question. 0:12:34.200,0:12:37.360 I don't know if any[br]Americans here remember 0:12:37.400,0:12:40.080 the Hillary Clinton texting meme[br]that popped up? 0:12:40.120,0:12:43.880 That wasn't a political commentary.[br]It was just her looking really bad-ass. 0:12:43.920,0:12:45.960 She was wearing sunglasses[br]and texting. 0:12:46.000,0:12:48.440 And there are all kinds of joke texts[br]coming from her 0:12:48.480,0:12:49.600 about how cool she was. 0:12:49.640,0:12:53.680 And her Twitter account, she just opened[br]a Twitter account, and it's that photo. 0:12:53.720,0:12:56.120 So, I think she's doing it well. 0:12:56.160,0:12:58.200 Granted, it wasn't criticising her, 0:12:58.240,0:13:00.520 but she did it well[br]in terms of embracing it. 0:13:00.560,0:13:05.000 And I think, there's certainly[br]a culture gap, a generation gap, 0:13:05.040,0:13:09.040 and I do hope that it opens up[br]a door for using humour 0:13:09.080,0:13:10.910 because I think that would be great, 0:13:10.920,0:13:13.760 if persons in power can use humour 0:13:13.800,0:13:15.840 to help talk about[br]often very difficult issues. 0:13:15.880,0:13:17.480 - We're going to have to wrap it, 0:13:17.520,0:13:19.040 we have to head back[br]into session. 0:13:19.080,0:13:22.000 Thank you, An Xiao Mina, and thank[br]you, Hetain Patel, for joining us. 0:13:22.040,0:13:24.440 And thank you, all the translators.[br]Thank you very much.