0:00:00.864,0:00:03.160
Chris Anderson: So, Jon, this feels scary.

0:00:03.160,0:00:04.186
Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.

0:00:04.186,0:00:07.956
CA: It feels like the world is in a place[br]that we haven't seen for a long time.

0:00:08.224,0:00:12.790
People don't just disagree[br]in the way that we're familiar with --

0:00:12.790,0:00:14.656
on the left-right political divide.

0:00:14.656,0:00:17.632
There are much deeper differences afoot.

0:00:17.810,0:00:20.906
What on earth is going on[br]and how did we get here?

0:00:21.200,0:00:24.256
Jonathan Haidt: This is different.

0:00:24.256,0:00:27.326
There's a much more[br]apocalyptic sort of feeling.

0:00:27.326,0:00:29.816
Survey research by Pew Research shows

0:00:29.816,0:00:33.556
that the degree to which we feel[br]that the other side is not just --

0:00:33.556,0:00:34.956
we don't just dislike them,

0:00:34.956,0:00:36.590
we strongly dislike them,

0:00:36.590,0:00:39.906
and we think that they are[br]a threat to the nation.

0:00:39.906,0:00:44.926
Those numbers have been going up and up,[br]and are over 50 percent now on both sides.

0:00:44.926,0:00:48.210
People are scared because it feels[br]like this is different than before.

0:00:48.210,0:00:49.336
It's much more intense.

0:00:49.336,0:00:52.026
Whenever I look[br]at any sort of social puzzle,

0:00:52.026,0:00:55.166
I always just apply the three[br]basic principles of moral psychology,

0:00:55.166,0:00:57.546
and I think they'll help us here.

0:00:57.546,0:01:00.136
So the first thing that you[br]have to always keep in mind

0:01:00.136,0:01:01.895
when you're thinking about politics

0:01:01.895,0:01:03.236
is that we're tribal.

0:01:03.236,0:01:04.646
We evolved for tribalism.

0:01:04.646,0:01:07.746
One of the simplest and greatest[br]insights into human social nature

0:01:07.746,0:01:08.996
is the bedouin proverb:

0:01:08.996,0:01:10.446
me against my brother,

0:01:10.446,0:01:12.396
me and my brother against our cousin,

0:01:12.396,0:01:14.986
me and my brother and cousins[br]against the stranger.

0:01:14.986,0:01:19.656
And so that tribalism[br]allowed us to create large societies

0:01:19.656,0:01:22.696
and to come together[br]in order to compete with others.

0:01:22.696,0:01:26.466
That brought us out of the jungle[br]and out of small groups,

0:01:26.466,0:01:28.476
but it means that we[br]have eternal conflict.

0:01:28.476,0:01:30.246
And the question you have to look at

0:01:30.246,0:01:33.106
is what aspects of our society[br]are making that more bitter,

0:01:33.106,0:01:34.596
and what are calming them down.

0:01:34.596,0:01:36.106
CA: That's a very dark proverb.

0:01:36.106,0:01:37.726
You're saying that that's actually

0:01:37.726,0:01:41.302
baked into most people's[br]mental wiring at some level.

0:01:41.302,0:01:42.496
JH: Oh yeah, absolutely.

0:01:42.496,0:01:45.056
This is just a basic aspect[br]of human social cognition.

0:01:45.056,0:01:47.706
But we can also live[br]together really peacefully,

0:01:47.706,0:01:50.916
and we've invented all kinds[br]of fun ways of, like, playing war.

0:01:50.916,0:01:52.356
I mean, sports, politics --

0:01:52.356,0:01:56.206
these are all ways that we get[br]to exercise this tribal nature

0:01:56.206,0:01:58.026
without actually hurting anyone.

0:01:58.026,0:02:02.156
We're actually also very good at trade[br]and exploration and meeting new people.

0:02:02.156,0:02:05.306
So you have to see our tribalism[br]as something that goes up or down.

0:02:05.306,0:02:08.125
It's not like we're doomed[br]to always be fighting each other,

0:02:08.125,0:02:10.330
but we'll never have world peace.

0:02:10.980,0:02:14.376
CA: The size of that tribe[br]can shrink or expand.

0:02:14.376,0:02:15.336
JH: Right.

0:02:15.336,0:02:17.612
CA: The size of what we consider us,

0:02:17.612,0:02:20.056
and what we consider other or them

0:02:20.056,0:02:22.306
can change.

0:02:22.730,0:02:25.066
And some people believe

0:02:25.066,0:02:28.216
that that process[br]could continue indefinitely.

0:02:28.224,0:02:29.440
JH: That's right.

0:02:29.440,0:02:32.746
CA: And that we were indeed expanding[br]the sense of tribe for a while.

0:02:32.746,0:02:33.936
JH: So this is, I think,

0:02:33.936,0:02:37.412
where we're getting at what's possibly[br]the new left-right distinction.

0:02:37.412,0:02:39.716
I mean, the left-right[br]as we've all inherited it,

0:02:39.716,0:02:42.578
comes out of the, you know,[br]labor versus capital distinction,

0:02:42.578,0:02:44.976
and the working class, Marx --

0:02:44.976,0:02:47.116
but I think what we're seeing[br]now increasingly

0:02:47.116,0:02:50.096
is a divide in all the Western democracies

0:02:50.096,0:02:53.826
between the people[br]who want to stop at nation,

0:02:53.826,0:02:55.576
the people who are more parochial --

0:02:55.576,0:02:57.386
I don't mean that in a bad way --

0:02:57.386,0:03:00.476
people who have much more[br]of a sense of being rooted,

0:03:00.476,0:03:03.540
they care about their town,[br]their community and their nation.

0:03:03.824,0:03:07.020
And then those who are antiparochial

0:03:07.020,0:03:08.136
and who --

0:03:08.136,0:03:11.511
whenever I get confused, I just think[br]of the John Lennon song "Imagine."

0:03:11.511,0:03:12.971
"Imagine there's no countries.

0:03:12.971,0:03:14.400
Nothing to kill or die for."

0:03:14.400,0:03:17.636
And so these are the people[br]who want more global governance,

0:03:17.636,0:03:19.096
they don't like nation states,

0:03:19.096,0:03:20.240
they don't like borders.

0:03:20.240,0:03:22.246
You see this all over Europe as well.

0:03:22.246,0:03:23.866
There's a great metaphor guy --

0:03:23.866,0:03:25.530
actually his name is Shakespeare --

0:03:25.530,0:03:27.134
writing ten years ago in Britain.

0:03:27.134,0:03:28.160
He had a metaphor:

0:03:28.160,0:03:31.456
"Are we drawbridge-uppers[br]or drawbridge-downers?"

0:03:31.456,0:03:34.306
And Britain is divided[br]52-48 on that point.

0:03:34.306,0:03:36.426
And America is divided on that point, too.

0:03:37.380,0:03:41.140
CA: And so those of us[br]who grew up with The Beatles

0:03:41.140,0:03:42.906
and that sort of hippie philosophy

0:03:42.906,0:03:44.870
of dreaming of a more connected world --

0:03:44.870,0:03:46.270
and it felt so idealistic --

0:03:46.270,0:03:48.810
and how could anyone[br]think badly about that?

0:03:48.810,0:03:50.760
What you're saying is that actually

0:03:50.760,0:03:55.206
millions of people today[br]feel that that isn't just silly,

0:03:55.206,0:03:58.016
it's actually dangerous and wrong,[br]and they're scared of it.

0:03:58.016,0:04:00.346
JH: I think the big issue,[br]especially in Europe,

0:04:00.346,0:04:01.348
but it's also here,

0:04:01.348,0:04:02.694
is the issue of immigration.

0:04:02.694,0:04:05.620
And I think this is where[br]we have to look very carefully

0:04:05.620,0:04:09.136
at the social science[br]about diversity and immigration.

0:04:09.274,0:04:10.961
Once something becomes politicized,

0:04:10.961,0:04:14.336
once it becomes something[br]that the left loves, and the right --

0:04:14.336,0:04:17.336
then even the social scientists[br]can't think straight about it.

0:04:17.336,0:04:19.316
Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.

0:04:19.316,0:04:21.546
It clearly creates more innovation,

0:04:21.546,0:04:24.046
the American economy[br]has grown enormously from it.

0:04:24.046,0:04:26.376
Diversity and immigration[br]do a lot of good things,

0:04:26.376,0:04:29.136
but what the globalists,[br]I think, don't see,

0:04:29.136,0:04:30.666
what they don't want to see,

0:04:30.666,0:04:36.676
is that ethnic diversity[br]cuts social capital and trust.

0:04:36.806,0:04:39.046
There's a very important[br]study by Robert Putnam,

0:04:39.046,0:04:40.926
the author of "Bowling Alone,"

0:04:40.926,0:04:43.046
looking at social capital databases.

0:04:43.046,0:04:46.016
And basically, the more people[br]feel that they are the same,

0:04:46.016,0:04:47.546
the more they trust each other,

0:04:47.546,0:04:50.256
the more they can have[br]a redistributionist welfare state.

0:04:50.256,0:04:52.250
Scandinavian countries are so wonderful

0:04:52.250,0:04:55.676
because they have this legacy[br]of being small, homogenous countries.

0:04:55.676,0:04:59.416
And that leads to a set[br]of progressive welfare state --

0:04:59.416,0:05:01.496
a set of progressive left-leaning values,

0:05:01.496,0:05:03.636
which says, "Drawbridge down!

0:05:03.636,0:05:05.246
The world is a great place.

0:05:05.246,0:05:06.906
People in Syria are suffering,

0:05:06.906,0:05:08.300
we must welcome them in."

0:05:08.300,0:05:09.720
And it's a beautiful thing.

0:05:09.990,0:05:11.286
But if --

0:05:11.286,0:05:12.930
and I was in Sweden this summer --

0:05:12.930,0:05:16.136
if the discourse in Sweden[br]is fairly politically correct,

0:05:16.136,0:05:18.216
and they can't talk about the downsides,

0:05:18.216,0:05:20.226
you end up bringing a lot of people in,

0:05:20.226,0:05:22.066
that's going to cut social capital,

0:05:22.066,0:05:23.970
it makes it hard to have a welfare state

0:05:23.970,0:05:25.480
and they might end up,

0:05:25.480,0:05:26.600
as we have in America,

0:05:26.600,0:05:28.040
with a racially divided --

0:05:28.040,0:05:29.970
visibly racially divided society.

0:05:29.970,0:05:32.206
So this is all very[br]uncomfortable to talk about.

0:05:32.206,0:05:33.776
But I think this is the thing --

0:05:33.776,0:05:35.660
especially in Europe and for us, too --

0:05:35.660,0:05:36.876
we need to be looking at.

0:05:36.876,0:05:38.985
CA: You're saying that people of reason,

0:05:38.985,0:05:41.496
people who would[br]consider themselves not racists,

0:05:41.496,0:05:43.246
but moral, upstanding people,

0:05:43.246,0:05:44.576
have a rationale that says,

0:05:44.576,0:05:47.126
"Look, humans are just too different."

0:05:47.126,0:05:51.736
We're in danger of overloading[br]our sense of what humans are capable of

0:05:51.736,0:05:53.916
by mixing in people who are too different.

0:05:53.916,0:05:57.906
JH: Yes, but I can make it[br]much more palatable

0:05:57.906,0:06:01.066
by saying it's not necessarily about race.

0:06:01.066,0:06:02.356
It's about culture.

0:06:02.356,0:06:04.196
And so there's wonderful work

0:06:04.196,0:06:06.526
by a political scientist[br]named Karen Stenner,

0:06:06.526,0:06:09.776
who shows that when people have a sense

0:06:09.776,0:06:12.126
that we are all united,[br]we're all the same,

0:06:12.126,0:06:15.321
there are many people who have[br]a predisposition to authoritarianism.

0:06:15.321,0:06:17.386
Those people aren't particularly racist

0:06:17.386,0:06:19.586
when they feel as through[br]there's not a threat

0:06:19.586,0:06:21.270
to our social and moral order.

0:06:21.270,0:06:23.326
But if you prime them experimentally

0:06:23.326,0:06:24.836
by thinking we're coming apart,

0:06:24.836,0:06:26.480
people are getting more different,

0:06:26.480,0:06:30.026
then they get more racist, homophobic,[br]they want to kick out the deviants.

0:06:30.026,0:06:32.956
So it's in part that you get[br]an authoritarian reaction.

0:06:32.956,0:06:35.316
The left, following through[br]the Lennonist line --

0:06:35.316,0:06:36.720
the John Lennon line --

0:06:36.720,0:06:39.086
does things that create[br]an authoritarian reaction.

0:06:39.086,0:06:41.976
So we're certainly seeing that[br]in America with the Alt-Right.

0:06:41.976,0:06:42.976
We saw it in Britain,

0:06:42.976,0:06:44.530
we've seen it all over Europe.

0:06:44.530,0:06:47.216
But the more positive part of that

0:06:47.216,0:06:51.536
is that I think the localists,[br]or the nationalists are actually right.

0:06:51.536,0:06:55.236
That if you emphasize[br]our cultural similarity,

0:06:55.236,0:06:57.486
then race doesn't[br]actually matter very much.

0:06:57.486,0:07:00.116
So an assimilationist[br]approach to immigration

0:07:00.116,0:07:01.696
removes a lot of these problems.

0:07:01.696,0:07:04.306
And if you value having[br]a generous welfare state,

0:07:04.306,0:07:06.550
you've got to emphasize[br]that we're all the same.

0:07:06.840,0:07:10.096
CA: OK, so rising immigration[br]and fears about that

0:07:10.096,0:07:13.286
are one of the causes[br]of the current divide.

0:07:13.286,0:07:15.196
What are other causes?

0:07:15.196,0:07:17.240
JH: The next principle of moral psychology

0:07:17.240,0:07:20.926
is that intuitions come first,[br]strategic reasoning second.

0:07:20.926,0:07:23.556
And you've probably heard[br]the term "motivated reasoning"

0:07:23.556,0:07:25.186
or "confirmation bias."

0:07:25.186,0:07:27.126
So there's some really interesting work

0:07:27.126,0:07:30.226
on how our high intelligence[br]and our verbal abilities

0:07:30.226,0:07:33.406
might have evolved[br]not to help us find out the truth,

0:07:33.406,0:07:35.206
but to help us manipulate each other,

0:07:35.206,0:07:36.400
defend our reputation.

0:07:36.400,0:07:39.346
We're really, really good[br]at justifying ourselves.

0:07:39.346,0:07:41.736
And when you bring[br]group interests into account,

0:07:41.736,0:07:42.776
so it's not just me,

0:07:42.776,0:07:44.590
it's like my team versus your team,

0:07:44.590,0:07:47.526
whereas if you're evaluating evidence[br]that your side is wrong,

0:07:47.526,0:07:49.306
we just can't accept that.

0:07:49.306,0:07:52.046
And so this is why you can't[br]win a political argument.

0:07:52.046,0:07:53.466
If you're debating something,

0:07:53.466,0:07:56.536
you can't persuade the person[br]with reasons and evidence

0:07:56.536,0:07:58.786
because that's not[br]the way reasoning works.

0:07:58.786,0:08:00.846
And so, now give us the Internet.

0:08:00.846,0:08:02.096
Give us Google.

0:08:02.096,0:08:05.276
You know, "I heard that Barack Obama[br]was born in Kenya,

0:08:05.276,0:08:06.360
let me Google that --

0:08:06.360,0:08:09.376
oh my God! 10 million hits! Look, he was!"

0:08:09.376,0:08:12.476
CA: So this has come as an unpleasant[br]surprise to a lot of people.

0:08:12.476,0:08:15.546
Social media has often been framed[br]by techno-optimists

0:08:15.546,0:08:20.726
as this great connecting force[br]that would bring people together.

0:08:21.150,0:08:25.096
And there have been some[br]unexpected counter effects to that.

0:08:25.096,0:08:27.426
JH: That's right, and that's why[br]I'm very enamored

0:08:27.426,0:08:30.246
of sort of ying-yang views[br]of human nature and left-right.

0:08:30.246,0:08:32.855
That each side is right[br]about certain things,

0:08:32.855,0:08:34.915
but then it goes blind to other things.

0:08:34.915,0:08:37.916
And so the left generally believes[br]that human nature is good,

0:08:37.916,0:08:38.966
bring people together,

0:08:38.966,0:08:40.970
knock down the walls and all will be well.

0:08:40.970,0:08:41.970
The right --

0:08:41.970,0:08:43.930
social conservatives, not libertarians --

0:08:43.930,0:08:45.946
social conservatives generally believe

0:08:45.946,0:08:49.346
people can be greedy[br]and sexual and selfish,

0:08:49.346,0:08:51.766
and we need regulation,[br]and we need restrictions.

0:08:52.634,0:08:54.640
So yeah, if you knock down[br]all the walls --

0:08:54.640,0:08:56.936
allow people to communicate[br]all over the world --

0:08:56.936,0:08:59.006
you get a lot of porn and a lot of racism.

0:08:59.006,0:09:00.290
CA: So help us understand.

0:09:00.290,0:09:05.720
These principles of human nature[br]have been with us forever.

0:09:07.030,0:09:11.710
What's changed that's deepened[br]this feeling of division?

0:09:12.360,0:09:17.016
JH: You have to see six to 10 different[br]threads all coming together.

0:09:17.564,0:09:19.470
I'll just list a couple of them.

0:09:19.470,0:09:22.740
So in America one of the big --

0:09:22.740,0:09:24.170
actually America and Europe --

0:09:24.170,0:09:26.076
one of the biggest ones is World War II.

0:09:26.076,0:09:28.706
There's interesting research[br]from Joe Henrich and others

0:09:28.706,0:09:31.106
that if your country was at war,

0:09:31.106,0:09:32.686
especially when you were young,

0:09:32.686,0:09:35.756
then we test you 30 years later[br]in a commons dilemma,

0:09:35.756,0:09:37.246
or a prisoner's dilemma,

0:09:37.246,0:09:39.126
you're more cooperative.

0:09:39.126,0:09:42.166
Because of our tribal nature, if you're --

0:09:42.166,0:09:45.106
you know, my parents were[br]teenagers during World War II

0:09:45.106,0:09:47.536
and they would go out[br]looking for scraps of aluminum

0:09:47.536,0:09:48.852
to help the war effort.

0:09:48.852,0:09:50.976
I mean, everybody pulled together.

0:09:50.976,0:09:52.616
And so then these people go on,

0:09:52.616,0:09:54.796
they rise up through business[br]and government,

0:09:54.796,0:09:56.696
they take leadership positions.

0:09:56.696,0:09:59.766
They're really good[br]at compromise and cooperation.

0:09:59.766,0:10:01.922
They all retire by the '90s.

0:10:01.922,0:10:05.246
So we're left with baby boomers[br]by the end of the '90s.

0:10:05.246,0:10:09.236
And their youth was spent fighting[br]each other within each country;

0:10:09.236,0:10:10.906
1968 and afterwards.

0:10:10.906,0:10:13.616
So the loss of the[br]World War II generation,

0:10:13.616,0:10:14.836
the greatest generation,

0:10:14.836,0:10:16.120
is huge.

0:10:16.774,0:10:18.440
So that's one.

0:10:18.440,0:10:22.196
Another in America is the[br]purification of the two parties.

0:10:22.196,0:10:25.266
There used to be liberal Republicans[br]and conservative Democrats.

0:10:25.266,0:10:28.456
So America had a mid-20th century[br]that was really bipartisan.

0:10:28.456,0:10:32.846
But because of a variety of factors[br]that started things moving

0:10:32.846,0:10:36.176
by the 90's we had purified[br]liberal party and conservative party.

0:10:36.176,0:10:38.946
And so now the people[br]in either party really are different.

0:10:38.946,0:10:41.596
And now we really don't want[br]our children to marry them,

0:10:41.596,0:10:43.616
which in the '60s didn't matter very much.

0:10:43.616,0:10:45.436
So the purification of the parties.

0:10:45.436,0:10:46.726
Third is the Internet.

0:10:46.726,0:10:47.930
And as I said,

0:10:47.930,0:10:52.636
it's just the most amazing stimulant[br]for post hoc reasoning and demonization.

0:10:52.636,0:10:57.616
CA: The tone of what's happening[br]on the Internet now is quite troubling.

0:10:57.616,0:11:00.486
I just did a quick search[br]on Twitter about the election

0:11:00.486,0:11:03.496
and saw two tweets next to each other.

0:11:03.724,0:11:07.960
One against a picture[br]of a sort of racist graffiti.

0:11:07.960,0:11:09.876
"This is disgusting,

0:11:09.876,0:11:13.176
Ugliness in this country,[br]brought to us by #Trump."

0:11:13.424,0:11:15.480
And then the next one is:

0:11:15.480,0:11:19.406
"Crooked Hillary[br]dedication page. Disgusting!"

0:11:19.406,0:11:23.636
So this idea of disgust[br]is troubling to me.

0:11:23.636,0:11:26.780
Because you can have an argument[br]or a disagreement about something,

0:11:26.780,0:11:28.501
you can get angry at someone.

0:11:29.254,0:11:32.870
Disgust, I've heard you say,[br]takes things to a much deeper level.

0:11:32.870,0:11:34.820
JH: That's right. Disgust is different.

0:11:34.820,0:11:36.160
Anger, you know --

0:11:36.160,0:11:37.160
I have kids,

0:11:37.160,0:11:40.296
they fight 10 times a day[br]and they love each other 30 times a day.

0:11:40.296,0:11:41.616
You just go back and forth.

0:11:41.616,0:11:43.156
You get angry, you're not angry.

0:11:43.156,0:11:44.690
You're angry, you're not angry.

0:11:44.690,0:11:46.346
But disgust is different.

0:11:46.346,0:11:50.796
Disgust paints the person[br]as being subhuman, monstrous,

0:11:50.796,0:11:51.806
deformed --

0:11:51.806,0:11:52.906
morally deformed.

0:11:52.906,0:11:56.076
Disgust is like indelible ink.

0:11:56.076,0:11:59.506
There's research from John Gottman[br]on marital therapy.

0:11:59.506,0:12:01.546
If you look at the faces,

0:12:01.546,0:12:04.766
if one of the couple[br]shows disgust or contempt,

0:12:04.766,0:12:07.756
that's a predictor that they're[br]going to get divorced soon.

0:12:07.756,0:12:10.856
Whereas if they show anger[br]that actually doesn't predict anything.

0:12:10.856,0:12:13.476
Because if you deal with anger well[br]it actually is good.

0:12:13.476,0:12:14.929
So this election is different.

0:12:14.929,0:12:18.606
Donald Trump personally[br]uses the word "disgust" a lot.

0:12:18.606,0:12:21.486
He's very germ-sensitive,[br]so disgust does matter a lot --

0:12:21.486,0:12:22.936
more for him,[br]

0:12:22.936,0:12:25.410
that is something unique to him,

0:12:25.410,0:12:28.336
but as we demonize each other more,

0:12:28.336,0:12:31.736
and again, through[br]the Manichaean worldview,

0:12:31.736,0:12:34.446
the idea that the world[br]is a battle between good and evil,

0:12:34.446,0:12:35.786
as this has been ramping up,

0:12:35.786,0:12:39.036
we're more likely not just to say[br]they're wrong or I don't like them,

0:12:39.036,0:12:41.596
but we say they're evil, they're satanic,

0:12:41.596,0:12:43.856
they're disgusting, they're revolting.

0:12:43.856,0:12:46.926
And then we want nothing to do with them.

0:12:46.926,0:12:48.736
And that's why I think we see --

0:12:48.736,0:12:50.645
we're seeing it, for example, on campus.

0:12:50.645,0:12:53.306
Now we're seeing more[br]the urge to keep people off campus,

0:12:53.306,0:12:55.096
silence them, keep them away.

0:12:55.096,0:12:57.676
I'm afraid that this whole[br]generation of young people,

0:12:57.676,0:13:01.492
if their introduction to politics[br]involves a lot of disgust,

0:13:01.492,0:13:03.926
they're not going to want[br]to be involved in politics

0:13:03.926,0:13:05.506
as they get older.

0:13:05.506,0:13:07.630
CA: So how do we deal with that?

0:13:07.630,0:13:12.110
Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?

0:13:13.041,0:13:14.989
JH: You can't do it with reasons.

0:13:15.312,0:13:18.034
I think --

0:13:18.034,0:13:20.311
I studied disgust for many years

0:13:20.311,0:13:22.062
and I think about emotions a lot,

0:13:22.062,0:13:25.587
and I think that the opposite[br]of disgust is actually love.

0:13:26.058,0:13:29.407
Love is all about like --

0:13:29.407,0:13:31.160
disgust is closing off --

0:13:31.160,0:13:32.317
borders.

0:13:32.317,0:13:34.774
Love is about dissolving walls.

0:13:35.074,0:13:37.930
And so personal relationships I think

0:13:37.930,0:13:40.689
are probably the most[br]powerful means we have.

0:13:41.561,0:13:44.281
You can be disgusted by a group of people,

0:13:44.281,0:13:46.222
but then you meet a particular person

0:13:46.222,0:13:48.482
and you genuinely discover[br]that they're lovely.

0:13:48.976,0:13:53.200
And then gradually that chips away[br]or changes your category as well.

0:13:54.231,0:14:00.231
The tragedy is that Americans used to be[br]much more mixed up in the their towns

0:14:00.231,0:14:02.310
by left-right or politics,

0:14:02.310,0:14:04.606
and now that it's become[br]this great moral divide,

0:14:04.606,0:14:05.838
there's a lot of evidence

0:14:05.838,0:14:09.233
that we're moving to be near people[br]who are like us politically.

0:14:09.233,0:14:11.787
It's harder to find somebody[br]who's on the other side.

0:14:11.787,0:14:13.237
So they're over there,

0:14:13.237,0:14:14.241
they're far away.

0:14:14.241,0:14:15.788
It's harder to get to know them.

0:14:15.788,0:14:18.118
CA: What would you say to someone,

0:14:18.118,0:14:19.943
or say to Americans,

0:14:19.943,0:14:20.944
people generally,

0:14:20.944,0:14:23.842
about what should we[br]understand about each other

0:14:23.842,0:14:27.421
that might help us rethink for a minute

0:14:27.421,0:14:29.842
this disgust instinct.

0:14:30.277,0:14:31.385
JH: Yes,

0:14:31.385,0:14:34.263
a really important[br]thing to keep in mind --

0:14:34.263,0:14:38.413
there's research by political[br]scientist Alan Abramowitz

0:14:38.413,0:14:42.429
showing that American democracy[br]is increasingly governed

0:14:42.429,0:14:45.115
by what's called negative partisanship.

0:14:45.115,0:14:48.146
That means you think like, "OK[br]there's a candidate,

0:14:48.146,0:14:49.279
you like the candidate,

0:14:49.279,0:14:50.610
you vote for the candidate."

0:14:50.610,0:14:52.625
But with the rise of negative advertising,

0:14:52.625,0:14:53.559
and social media

0:14:53.559,0:14:55.231
and all sorts of other trends,

0:14:55.231,0:14:57.133
increasingly the way elections are done

0:14:57.133,0:14:59.902
is that each side tries to make[br]the other side so horrible,

0:14:59.902,0:15:01.031
so awful,

0:15:01.031,0:15:03.279
that you'll vote for my guy by default.

0:15:03.510,0:15:06.503
And so as we more and more vote[br]against the other side

0:15:06.503,0:15:08.038
and not for our side,

0:15:08.038,0:15:09.489
you have to keep in mind

0:15:09.489,0:15:13.518
that if people are on the left,

0:15:13.518,0:15:16.334
they think well, "I used to think[br]that Republicans were bad,

0:15:16.334,0:15:17.840
but now Donald Trump proves it.

0:15:17.840,0:15:19.652
And now every Republican

0:15:19.652,0:15:22.375
I can paint with all the things[br]that I think about Trump."

0:15:22.375,0:15:23.991
And that's not necessarily true.

0:15:23.991,0:15:26.548
They're generally not very happy[br]with their candidate.

0:15:26.548,0:15:31.264
This is the most negative partisanship[br]election in American history.

0:15:31.955,0:15:35.578
So you have to first separate your[br]feelings about the candidate

0:15:35.578,0:15:38.538
from your feelings about the people[br]who are given a choice,

0:15:38.538,0:15:40.538
and then you have to realize

0:15:40.538,0:15:44.012
that because we all live[br]in a separate moral world --

0:15:44.012,0:15:47.482
the metaphor I use in the book[br]is that we're all trapped in "The Matrix,"

0:15:47.482,0:15:49.231
or each moral community is a matrix,

0:15:49.231,0:15:51.028
a consensual hallucination.

0:15:51.028,0:15:53.294
And so if you're within the blue matrix,

0:15:53.294,0:15:56.613
everything's completely compelling[br]that the other side,

0:15:56.613,0:16:00.222
they're troglodytes, they're racists,[br]they're the worst people in the world,

0:16:00.222,0:16:02.349
and you have all[br]the facts to back that up.

0:16:02.349,0:16:06.460
But somebody in the next house from yours[br]is living in a different moral matrix.

0:16:06.460,0:16:08.500
They live in a different video game,

0:16:08.500,0:16:10.798
and they see a completely[br]different set of facts.

0:16:10.798,0:16:13.410
And each one sees different[br]threats to the country.

0:16:13.410,0:16:15.524
And what I've found[br]from being in the middle,

0:16:15.524,0:16:17.519
and from trying to understand both sides,

0:16:17.519,0:16:18.696
is both sides are right.

0:16:18.696,0:16:20.763
There are a lot of threats to this country

0:16:20.763,0:16:24.248
and each side is constitutionally[br]incapable of seeing them all.

0:16:24.963,0:16:27.042
CA: So are you almost saying

0:16:27.044,0:16:31.309
that we almost need a new type of empathy?

0:16:31.705,0:16:35.202
Empathy is traditionally framed as[br]"Oh I feel your pain,

0:16:35.202,0:16:36.906
I can put myself in your shoes,"

0:16:36.906,0:16:39.697
and we apply it to the poor,[br]the needy, the suffering.

0:16:40.349,0:16:44.195
We don't usually apply it [br]to people who we feel as other,

0:16:44.195,0:16:45.970
or we're disgusted by.

0:16:46.248,0:16:51.427
What would it look like[br]to build that type of empathy?

0:16:52.491,0:16:54.439
JH: So I think --

0:16:54.439,0:16:56.710
empathy is a very very[br]hot topic in psychology,

0:16:56.710,0:16:59.289
and it's a very popular word[br]on the left in particular,

0:16:59.289,0:17:00.439
empathy's a good thing.

0:17:00.439,0:17:03.581
And empathy for the preferred[br]classes of victims.

0:17:03.581,0:17:05.047
So it's important to empathize

0:17:05.047,0:17:07.805
with the groups that we on the left[br]think are so important.

0:17:07.805,0:17:10.209
That's easy to do because[br]you get points for that.

0:17:10.840,0:17:14.513
But empathy really should get you points[br]if you do it when it's hard to do.

0:17:14.513,0:17:16.593
And I think,

0:17:16.593,0:17:21.618
we had a long 50-year period[br]of dealing with our race problems

0:17:21.618,0:17:23.681
and legal discrimination,

0:17:23.681,0:17:25.806
and that was our top[br]priority for a long time

0:17:25.806,0:17:27.571
and it still is important,

0:17:27.571,0:17:29.063
but I think this year,

0:17:29.063,0:17:31.490
I'm hoping it will make people see

0:17:31.490,0:17:34.308
that we have an existential[br]threat on our hands.

0:17:34.308,0:17:35.971
Our left-right divide,

0:17:35.971,0:17:36.972
I believe,

0:17:36.972,0:17:39.112
is by far the most important[br]divide we face.

0:17:39.112,0:17:42.120
We still have issues about race[br]and gender and LGBT,

0:17:42.120,0:17:45.668
but this is the urgent need[br]of the next 50 years,

0:17:45.668,0:17:48.529
and things aren't going[br]to get better on their own.

0:17:49.021,0:17:51.880
So we're going to need to do[br]a lot of institutional reforms,

0:17:51.880,0:17:53.313
and we could talk about that,

0:17:53.313,0:17:55.756
but that's like a whole long,[br]wonky converstation.

0:17:55.756,0:17:59.850
But I think it starts with people[br]realizing that this is a turning point.

0:17:59.850,0:18:02.656
And yes, we need a new kind of empathy.

0:18:02.656,0:18:04.035
We need to realize:

0:18:04.035,0:18:05.537
this is what our country needs,

0:18:05.537,0:18:08.072
and this is what you need.

0:18:08.072,0:18:10.714
Raise your hand if you want[br]to spend the next four years

0:18:10.714,0:18:13.255
as angry and worried[br]as you've been for the last year.

0:18:13.255,0:18:14.255
Raise your hand.

0:18:14.255,0:18:15.924
So if you want to escape from this,

0:18:15.924,0:18:18.201
read Buddha, read Jesus,[br]read Marcus Aurelius,

0:18:18.201,0:18:23.234
I mean they have all kinds of great advice[br]for how to drop the fear,

0:18:23.234,0:18:24.489
reframe things,

0:18:24.489,0:18:26.467
stop seeing other people as your enemy.

0:18:26.467,0:18:29.903
So there's a lot of guidance and ancient[br]wisdom for this kind of empathy.

0:18:29.903,0:18:31.263
CA: Here's my last question.

0:18:31.263,0:18:35.883
Personally, what can[br]people do to help heal?

0:18:35.883,0:18:39.768
JH: Yeah, it's very hard to just decide[br]to overcome your deepest prejudices.

0:18:39.768,0:18:41.252
And there's research showing

0:18:41.252,0:18:45.531
that political prejudices are deeper[br]and stronger that race prejudices

0:18:45.531,0:18:46.974
in the country now.

0:18:47.498,0:18:49.797
So I think you have to make an effort.

0:18:49.797,0:18:50.995
That's the main thing.

0:18:50.995,0:18:53.000
Make an effort to actually[br]meet somebody --

0:18:53.000,0:18:54.473
everybody has a cousin,

0:18:54.473,0:18:55.482
a brother-in-law,

0:18:55.482,0:18:57.181
somebody who's on the other side.

0:18:57.181,0:18:59.582
So after this election,

0:18:59.582,0:19:03.181
wait a week or two because it's probably[br]going to feel awful for one of you,

0:19:03.181,0:19:04.319
but wait a couple weeks

0:19:04.319,0:19:07.781
and then reach out and say[br]that you want to talk.

0:19:07.781,0:19:09.401
And before you do it,

0:19:09.401,0:19:12.403
read Dale Carnegie, "How to Win[br]Friends and Influence People --"

0:19:12.403,0:19:13.403
(Laughter)

0:19:13.403,0:19:14.517
I'm totally serious.

0:19:14.517,0:19:17.166
You'll learn techniques[br]if you start by acknowledging,

0:19:17.166,0:19:18.410
if you start by saying,

0:19:18.410,0:19:20.027
"You know we don't agree on a lot,

0:19:20.027,0:19:22.493
but one thing I really[br]respect about you, Uncle Bob,

0:19:22.493,0:19:24.672
or about you conservatives is ... "

0:19:24.672,0:19:26.112
And you can find something.

0:19:26.112,0:19:29.164
If you start with some[br]appreciation it's like magic.

0:19:29.164,0:19:31.222
This is one of the main[br]things I've learned,

0:19:31.222,0:19:33.218
that I've taken to my human relationships.

0:19:33.218,0:19:35.001
I still make lots of stupid mistakes,

0:19:35.001,0:19:37.040
but I'm incredibly good[br]at apologizing now,

0:19:37.040,0:19:39.480
and at acknowledging what[br]somebody was right about.

0:19:39.480,0:19:42.281
And if you do that then[br]the conversation goes really well,

0:19:42.281,0:19:44.136
and it's actually really fun.

0:19:44.797,0:19:47.386
CA: Jon, it's absolutely fascinating[br]speaking with you.

0:19:47.386,0:19:51.168
It's really does feel like[br]the ground that we're on

0:19:51.168,0:19:56.035
is a ground populated by deep questions[br]of morality and human nature.

0:19:56.454,0:19:59.086
Your wisdom couldn't be more relevant.

0:19:59.086,0:20:01.404
Thank you so much for sharing[br]this time with us.

0:20:01.404,0:20:02.403
(Applause)

0:20:02.403,0:20:03.402
JH: Thank you.