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Chris Anderson: So, Jon, this feels scary.

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Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.

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It feels like the world is in a place
that we haven't seen for a long time.

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People don't just disagree
in the way that we're familiar with.

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The left-right political divide.

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There are much deeper differences afoot.

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What on earth is going on
and how did we get here?

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Jonathan Haidt: This is different.

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There's a much more
apocalyptic sort of feeling.

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Survey research by Pew Research shows

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that the degree to which we feel
that the other side is not just --

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we just don't dislike them,
we strongly dislike them,

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and we think that they are
a threat to the nation.

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Those numbers have been going up and up,
and are over 50 percent now on both sides.

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People are scared because it feels
like this is different than before.

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It's much more intense.

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Whenever I look
at any sort of social puzzle,

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I always just apply the three
basic principles of moral psychology,

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and I think they'll help us here.

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So the first thing
that you have to always keep in mind

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when you're thinking about politics,

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is that we're tribal.

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We evolved for tribalism.

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One of the simplest and greatest
insights into human social nature

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is the bedouin proverb:

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me against my brother,

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me and my brother against our cousin,

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my and my brother and cousins
against the stranger.

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And so that tribalism
allowed us to create large societies

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and to come together
in order to compete with others.

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That brought us out of the jungle
and out of small groups,

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but it means that
we have internal conflict.

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And the question you have to look at

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is what aspects of our society
are making that more bitter,

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and what are calming them down.

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CA: That's a very dark proverb.

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You're saying that that's actually

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baked into most people's
mental wiring at some level.

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JH: Oh yeah, absolutely.

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This is just a basic aspect
of human social cognition.

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But we can also live together
really peacefully

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and we've invented all kinds
of fun ways of, like, playing war.

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I mean, sports, politics --

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these are all ways that we get
to exercise this tribal nature

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without actually hurting anyone.

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We're actually also very good at trade
and exploration and meeting new people.

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So you have to see our tribalism
as something that goes up or down.

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It's not like we're doomed
to always be fighting each other,

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but we'll never have world peace.

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CA: The size of that tribe
can shrink or expand.

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JH: Right.

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CA: The size of what we consider us

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and what we consider other or them

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can change.

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And some people believe

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that that process
could continue indefinitely.

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JH: That's right.

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CA: And that we were indeed expanding
the sense of tribe for a while.

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JH: So this is, I think,

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where we're getting at what's possibly
the new left-right distinction.

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I mean, the left-right
as we've all inherited it,

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comes out of the, you know,
labor versus capital distinction,

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and the working class, Marks --

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But I think what we're seeing
now increasingly

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is a divide in all the Western democracies

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between the people
who want to stop at nation,

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the people who are more parochial --

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I don't mean that in a bad way --

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people who have much more
of a sense of being rooted,

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they care about their town,
their community, and their nation.

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And then those who are antiparochial

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and who --

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Whenever I get confused, I just think
of the John Lennon song "Imagine."

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"Imagine there's no countries.
Nothing to kill or die for."

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And so these are the people
who want more global governance,

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they don't like nation states,
they don't like borders.

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You see this all over Europe as well.

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There's a great metaphor guy --
actually, his name is Shakespeare --

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writing ten years ago in Britain.

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He had a metaphor:

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"Are we drawbridge-uppers
or drawbridge-downers?"

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And Britain is divided
52-48 on that point.

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And America is divided on that point, too.

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CA: Hmm. And so --

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those of us who grew up with The Beatles
and that sort of hippie philosophy

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of dreaming of a more connected world --

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and it felt so idealistic, and how could
anyone think badly about that?

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What you're saying is that actually

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millions of people today
feel that that isn't just silly,

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it's actually dangerous and wrong,
and they're scared of it.

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JH: I think the big issue,
especially in Europe, but also here,

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is the issue of immigration.

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And I think this is
where we have to look very carefully

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at the social science
about diversity and immigration.

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Once something becomes politicized,

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one it becomes something
that the left loves, and the right --

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then even the social scientists
can't think straight about it.

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Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.

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It clearly creates more innovation,

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the American economy
has grown enormously from it.

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Diversity and immigration
do a lot of good things,

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but what the globalists,
I think, don't see,

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what they don't want to see,

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is that ethnic diversity
cuts social capital and trust.

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There's a very important study
by Robert Putnam,

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the author of "Bowling alone,"

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looking at social capital databases.

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And basically, the more people feel
that they are the same,

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the more they trust each other,

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the more they can have
a redistributionist welfare state.

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Scandinavian countries are so wonderful

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because they have this legacy
of being small, homogenous countries.

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And that leads to a set
of progressive welfare state --

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a set of progressive left-leaning values,

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which says, "Drawbridge down!
The world is a great place.

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People in Syria are suffering.
We must welcome them in."

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And it's a beautiful thing.

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But if --

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and I was in Sweden this summer --

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if the discourse in Sweden
is fairly politically correct,

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and they can't talk about the downsides,

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you end up bringing a lot of people in,

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that's going to cut social capital,
it makes it hard to have a welfare state

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and they might end up,
as we have in America,

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with a racially divided --
visibly racially divided society.

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So this is all very
uncomfortable to talk about.

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But I think this is the thing --
especially in Europe, and for us, too --

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we need to be looking at.

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CA: You're saying that people of reason,

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people who would
consider themselves not racists,

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but moral, upstanding people,

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have a rationale that says,

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"Look, humans are just too different."

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We're in danger of overloading
our sense of what humans are capable of

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by mixing people who are too different.

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JH: Yes, but I can make it
much more palatable

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by saying it's not necessarily about race.

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It's about culture.

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And so there's wonderful work

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by a political scientist
named Karen Stenner,

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who shows that when people have a sense

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that we are all united,
we're all the same,

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there are many people who have
a predisposition to authoritarianism.

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Those people aren't particularly racist

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when they feel there's no threat
to our social and moral order.

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But if you prime them experimentally

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by thinking we're coming apart,
people are getting more different,

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then they get more racist, homophobic,
they want to kick out the deviants.

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So it's in part that you get
an authoritarian reaction.

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The left, following through
the Leninist line, the John Lennon line,

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does things that create
an authoritarian reaction.

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So we're certainly seeing that
in America with the ultraright.

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We saw it in Britain,
we're seeing that all over Europe.

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But the more positive part of that

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is that I think the localists,
or the nationalists are actually right.

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That if you emphasize
our cultural similarity,

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then race doesn't
actually matter very much.

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So an assimilationist
approach to immigration

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removes a lot of these problems.

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And if you value having
a generous welfare state,

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you've got to emphasize
that we're all the same.

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CA: OK, so rising immigration
and fears about that

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are one of the causes
of the current divide.

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What are other causes?

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JH: The next principle of moral psychology

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is that intuitions come first,
strategic reasoning second.

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And you've probably heard
the term "motivated reasoning"

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or "confirmation bias."

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So there's some really interesting work

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on how our high intelligence
and our verbal abilities

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might have evolved
not to help us find out the truth,

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but to help us manipulate each other,
defend a reputation.

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We're really, really good
at justifying ourselves.

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And if you bring
group interests into account,

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so it's not just me,
it's my team versus your team,

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you know, if you're evaluating evidence
that your side is wrong,

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we just can't accept that.

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And so this is why
you can't win a political argument.

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If you're debating something,

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you can't persuade the person
with reasons and evidence.

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Because that's not
the way reasoning works.

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And so, now give us the Internet.

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Give us Google.

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You know, "I heard that Barack Obama
was born in Kenya,

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let me Google that.

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Oh my God! 10 million hits! Look, he was!"

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CA: So this is an unpleasant surprise
to a lot of people.

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The social media has often been framed
by technooptimists

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as this great connecting force
that would bring people together.

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And there have been
some unexpected countereffects to that.

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JH: That's right.
And that's why I'm very enamored

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of sort of ying-yang views
of human nature and left-right.

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That each side is right
about certain things,

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but then it goes blind to other things.

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And so the left generally believes
that human nature is good,

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bring people together,
knock down the walls and all will be well.

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The right -- social conservatives,
not libertarians --

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social conservatives generally believe

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people can be greedy
and sexual and selfish,

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and we need regulation,
and we need restrictions.

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So yeah, if you knock down
all the walls --

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a lot of people communicate
all over the world --

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you get a lot of porn and a lot of racism.

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CA: So help us understand.

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These principles of human nature
have been with us forever.

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What's changed that's deepened
this feeling of division?

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JH: You have to see six to 10 different
threads all coming together.

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I'll just list a couple of them.

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So in America --
actually, in America and Europe --

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one of the biggest ones is World War II.

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There's interesting research
from Joe Henrich and others

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that if your country was at war,

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especially when you were young,

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then we test you 30 years later
in a commons dilemma,

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or a prisoner's dilemma,

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you're more cooperative.

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Because of our tribal nature, if you're --

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You know, my parents were teenagers
during World War II

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and, you know, they would go out
looking for scraps of aluminum,

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to help the war effort.

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I mean, everybody pulled together.

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And so then these people go on,

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they rise up through business
and government,

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they take leadership positions.

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They're really good
at compromise and cooperation.

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They all retire by the 90's.

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So we're left with baby-boomers
by the end of the 90's.

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And their youth was spent
fighting each other within each country,

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1968 and afterwards.

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So the loss of
the World War II generation,

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the greatest generation, is huge.

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So that's one.

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Another in America
is the purification of the two parties.

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There used to be liberal Republicans
and conservative Democrats.

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So the mid-20th century,
that was really bipartisan.

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But because of a variety of factors
that started things moving

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by the 90's we had purified
liberal party and conservative party.

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And so now the people
in those parties really are different.

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And now we really don't want
our children to marry them,

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which in the 60's didn't matter very much.

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So the purification of the parties.

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Third is the Internet.

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And as I said,

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it's just the most amazing stimulant
for post hoc reasoning and demonization.

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CA: The tone of what's happening
on the Internet now is quite troubling.

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I just did a quick search on Twitter
about the election

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and saw two tweets next to each other.

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One against a picture
of a sort of racist graffiti.

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"This is disgusting,

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Ugliness in this country,
brought to us by #Trump."

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And then the next one is:

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"Crooked Hillary
dedication page. Disgusting!"

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So this idea of disgust
is troubling to me.

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Because you can have an argument
or a disagreement about something,

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you can get angry at someone.

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Disgust, I've heard you say,
takes things to a much deeper level.

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JH: That's right. Disgust is different.

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Anger, you know -- I have kids,
they fight 10 times a day,

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and they love each other 30 times a day.

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You just go back and forth.
You get angry, you're not angry.

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But disgust is different.

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Disgust paints the person
as being subhuman, monstrous,

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deformed -- morally deformed.

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Disgust is like indelible ink.

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There's research from John Gottman
on marital therapy.

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If you look at the faces,

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if one of the couple
shows disgust or contempt,

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that's a predictor that
they're going to get divorced soon.

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Whereas if they show anger,
that actually doesn't predict anything.

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Because if you deal with anger well,
it actually is good.

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So this election is different.

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Donald Trump personally
uses the word "disgust" a lot.

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He's very germ-sensitive,
so disgust does matter a lot.

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More for him,
that is something unique to him,

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but as we demonize each other more,

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and again, through
the Manichaean worldview,

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the idea that the world
is a battle between good and evil,

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as this has been ramping up,

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we're likely not just to say
they're wrong or I don't like them,

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but we say they're evil, they're satanic,

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they're disgusting, they're revolting.

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And then we want nothing to do with them.

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And that's why I think we see --

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We're seeing it, for example, on campus.

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Now we're seeing more
the urge to keep people off campus.

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Silence them, keep them away.

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I'm afraid that this whole
generation of young people,

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if their introduction to politics
involves a lot of disgust,

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they're not going to want
to be involved in politics,

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as they get older.

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CA: So how do we deal with that?

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Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?

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JH: