0:00:00.840,0:00:03.136
Chris Anderson: So, Jon, this feels scary.

0:00:03.160,0:00:04.376
Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.

0:00:04.400,0:00:08.176
It feels like the world is in a place[br]that we haven't seen for a long time.

0:00:08.200,0:00:12.616
People don't just disagree[br]in the way that we're familiar with.

0:00:12.640,0:00:14.656
The left-right political divide.

0:00:14.680,0:00:17.656
There are much deeper differences afoot.

0:00:17.680,0:00:21.176
What on earth is going on[br]and how did we get here?

0:00:21.200,0:00:23.976
Jonathan Haidt: This is different.

0:00:24.000,0:00:27.136
There's a much more[br]apocalyptic sort of feeling.

0:00:27.160,0:00:29.536
Survey research by Pew Research shows

0:00:29.560,0:00:33.336
that the degree to which we feel[br]that the other side is not just --

0:00:33.360,0:00:36.296
we just don't dislike them,[br]we strongly dislike them,

0:00:36.320,0:00:39.856
and we think that they are[br]a threat to the nation.

0:00:39.880,0:00:44.536
Those numbers have been going up and up,[br]and are over 50 percent now on both sides.

0:00:44.560,0:00:47.896
People are scared because it feels[br]like this is different than before.

0:00:47.920,0:00:49.176
It's much more intense.

0:00:49.200,0:00:51.696
Whenever I look[br]at any sort of social puzzle,

0:00:51.720,0:00:54.896
I always just apply the three[br]basic principles of moral psychology,

0:00:54.920,0:00:57.296
and I think they'll help us here.

0:00:57.320,0:00:59.936
So the first thing[br]that you have to always keep in mind

0:00:59.960,0:01:01.675
when you're thinking about politics,

0:01:01.699,0:01:02.936
is that we're tribal.

0:01:02.960,0:01:04.376
We evolved for tribalism.

0:01:04.400,0:01:07.496
One of the simplest and greatest[br]insights into human social nature

0:01:07.520,0:01:08.816
is the bedouin proverb:

0:01:08.840,0:01:10.256
me against my brother,

0:01:10.280,0:01:12.136
me and my brother against our cousin,

0:01:12.160,0:01:14.656
my and my brother and cousins[br]against the stranger.

0:01:14.680,0:01:19.376
And so that tribalism[br]allowed us to create large societies

0:01:19.400,0:01:22.496
and to come together[br]in order to compete with others.

0:01:22.520,0:01:26.296
That brought us out of the jungle[br]and out of small groups,

0:01:26.320,0:01:28.416
but it means that[br]we have internal conflict.

0:01:28.440,0:01:30.136
And the question you have to look at

0:01:30.160,0:01:32.936
is what aspects of our society[br]are making that more bitter,

0:01:32.960,0:01:34.456
and what are calming them down.

0:01:34.480,0:01:36.016
CA: That's a very dark proverb.

0:01:36.040,0:01:37.696
You're saying that that's actually

0:01:37.720,0:01:41.096
baked into most people's[br]mental wiring at some level.

0:01:41.120,0:01:42.336
JH: Oh yeah, absolutely.

0:01:42.360,0:01:44.896
This is just a basic aspect[br]of human social cognition.

0:01:44.920,0:01:47.416
But we can also live together[br]really peacefully

0:01:47.440,0:01:50.496
and we've invented all kinds[br]of fun ways of, like, playing war.

0:01:50.520,0:01:51.976
I mean, sports, politics --

0:01:52.000,0:01:56.016
these are all ways that we get[br]to exercise this tribal nature

0:01:56.040,0:01:57.616
without actually hurting anyone.

0:01:57.640,0:02:01.976
We're actually also very good at trade[br]and exploration and meeting new people.

0:02:02.000,0:02:05.176
So you have to see our tribalism[br]as something that goes up or down.

0:02:05.200,0:02:08.015
It's not like we're doomed[br]to always be fighting each other,

0:02:08.039,0:02:09.800
but we'll never have world peace.

0:02:10.800,0:02:14.096
CA: The size of that tribe[br]can shrink or expand.

0:02:14.120,0:02:15.336
JH: Right.

0:02:15.360,0:02:17.336
CA: The size of what we consider us

0:02:17.360,0:02:19.816
and what we consider other or them

0:02:19.840,0:02:22.536
can change.

0:02:22.560,0:02:24.736
And some people believe

0:02:24.760,0:02:28.176
that that process[br]could continue indefinitely.

0:02:28.200,0:02:29.416
JH: That's right.

0:02:29.440,0:02:32.696
CA: And that we were indeed expanding[br]the sense of tribe for a while.

0:02:32.720,0:02:33.936
JH: So this is, I think,

0:02:33.960,0:02:37.296
where we're getting at what's possibly[br]the new left-right distinction.

0:02:37.320,0:02:39.656
I mean, the left-right[br]as we've all inherited it,

0:02:39.680,0:02:42.538
comes out of the, you know,[br]labor versus capital distinction,

0:02:42.562,0:02:44.776
and the working class, Marks --

0:02:44.800,0:02:46.976
But I think what we're seeing[br]now increasingly

0:02:47.000,0:02:49.896
is a divide in all the Western democracies

0:02:49.920,0:02:53.416
between the people[br]who want to stop at nation,

0:02:53.440,0:02:55.336
the people who are more parochial --

0:02:55.360,0:02:56.976
I don't mean that in a bad way --

0:02:57.000,0:03:00.016
people who have much more[br]of a sense of being rooted,

0:03:00.040,0:03:02.960
they care about their town,[br]their community, and their nation.

0:03:03.800,0:03:06.896
And then those who are antiparochial

0:03:06.920,0:03:08.136
and who --

0:03:08.160,0:03:11.541
Whenever I get confused, I just think[br]of the John Lennon song "Imagine."

0:03:11.565,0:03:14.376
"Imagine there's no countries.[br]Nothing to kill or die for."

0:03:14.400,0:03:17.376
And so these are the people[br]who want more global governance,

0:03:17.400,0:03:20.016
they don't like nation states,[br]they don't like borders.

0:03:20.040,0:03:21.856
You see this all over Europe as well.

0:03:21.880,0:03:25.096
There's a great metaphor guy --[br]actually, his name is Shakespeare --

0:03:25.120,0:03:26.896
writing ten years ago in Britain.

0:03:26.920,0:03:28.136
He had a metaphor:

0:03:28.160,0:03:31.096
"Are we drawbridge-uppers[br]or drawbridge-downers?"

0:03:31.120,0:03:34.096
And Britain is divided[br]52-48 on that point.

0:03:34.120,0:03:36.216
And America is divided on that point, too.

0:03:36.240,0:03:37.800
CA: Hmm. And so --

0:03:39.000,0:03:42.576
those of us who grew up with The Beatles[br]and that sort of hippie philosophy

0:03:42.600,0:03:44.536
of dreaming of a more connected world --

0:03:44.560,0:03:48.656
and it felt so idealistic, and how could[br]anyone think badly about that?

0:03:48.680,0:03:50.376
What you're saying is that actually

0:03:50.400,0:03:54.896
millions of people today[br]feel that that isn't just silly,

0:03:54.920,0:03:57.776
it's actually dangerous and wrong,[br]and they're scared of it.

0:03:57.800,0:04:00.776
JH: I think the big issue,[br]especially in Europe, but also here,

0:04:00.800,0:04:02.176
is the issue of immigration.

0:04:02.200,0:04:05.416
And I think this is[br]where we have to look very carefully

0:04:05.440,0:04:09.136
at the social science[br]about diversity and immigration.

0:04:09.160,0:04:10.827
Once something becomes politicized,

0:04:10.851,0:04:13.756
one it becomes something[br]that the left loves, and the right --

0:04:13.780,0:04:17.016
then even the social scientists[br]can't think straight about it.

0:04:17.040,0:04:18.976
Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.

0:04:19.000,0:04:21.216
It clearly creates more innovation,

0:04:21.240,0:04:23.616
the American economy[br]has grown enormously from it.

0:04:23.640,0:04:26.016
Diversity and immigration[br]do a lot of good things,

0:04:26.040,0:04:28.736
but what the globalists,[br]I think, don't see,

0:04:28.760,0:04:30.256
what they don't want to see,

0:04:30.280,0:04:36.736
is that ethnic diversity[br]cuts social capital and trust.

0:04:36.760,0:04:39.016
There's a very important study[br]by Robert Putnam,

0:04:39.040,0:04:40.656
the author of "Bowling alone,"

0:04:40.680,0:04:42.576
looking at social capital databases.

0:04:42.600,0:04:45.696
And basically, the more people feel[br]that they are the same,

0:04:45.720,0:04:47.216
the more they trust each other,

0:04:47.240,0:04:49.936
the more they can have[br]a redistributionist welfare state.

0:04:49.960,0:04:51.856
Scandinavian countries are so wonderful

0:04:51.880,0:04:55.376
because they have this legacy[br]of being small, homogenous countries.

0:04:55.400,0:04:59.136
And that leads to a set[br]of progressive welfare state --

0:04:59.160,0:05:01.136
a set of progressive left-leaning values,

0:05:01.160,0:05:04.896
which says, "Drawbridge down![br]The world is a great place.

0:05:04.920,0:05:07.816
People in Syria are suffering.[br]We must welcome them in."

0:05:07.840,0:05:09.200
And it's a beautiful thing.

0:05:09.840,0:05:11.056
But if --

0:05:11.080,0:05:12.700
and I was in Sweden this summer --

0:05:12.724,0:05:15.696
if the discourse in Sweden[br]is fairly politically correct,

0:05:15.720,0:05:17.936
and they can't talk about the downsides,

0:05:17.960,0:05:19.936
you end up bringing a lot of people in,

0:05:19.960,0:05:23.576
that's going to cut social capital,[br]it makes it hard to have a welfare state

0:05:23.600,0:05:26.056
and they might end up,[br]as we have in America,

0:05:26.080,0:05:29.816
with a racially divided --[br]visibly racially divided society.

0:05:29.840,0:05:32.096
So this is all very[br]uncomfortable to talk about.

0:05:32.120,0:05:35.576
But I think this is the thing --[br]especially in Europe, and for us, too --

0:05:35.600,0:05:36.816
we need to be looking at.

0:05:36.840,0:05:38.745
CA: You're saying that people of reason,

0:05:38.769,0:05:41.216
people who would[br]consider themselves not racists,

0:05:41.240,0:05:42.936
but moral, upstanding people,

0:05:42.960,0:05:44.296
have a rationale that says,

0:05:44.320,0:05:46.176
"Look, humans are just too different."

0:05:46.200,0:05:51.416
We're in danger of overloading[br]our sense of what humans are capable of

0:05:51.440,0:05:53.496
by mixing people who are too different.

0:05:53.520,0:05:57.496
JH: Yes, but I can make it[br]much more palatable

0:05:57.520,0:06:00.736
by saying it's not necessarily about race.

0:06:00.760,0:06:01.976
It's about culture.

0:06:02.000,0:06:03.896
And so there's wonderful work

0:06:03.920,0:06:06.136
by a political scientist[br]named Karen Stenner,

0:06:06.160,0:06:09.416
who shows that when people have a sense

0:06:09.440,0:06:11.736
that we are all united,[br]we're all the same,

0:06:11.760,0:06:14.951
there are many people who have[br]a predisposition to authoritarianism.

0:06:14.975,0:06:17.016
Those people aren't particularly racist

0:06:17.040,0:06:21.016
when they feel there's no threat[br]to our social and moral order.

0:06:21.040,0:06:22.856
But if you prime them experimentally

0:06:22.880,0:06:26.016
by thinking we're coming apart,[br]people are getting more different,

0:06:26.040,0:06:29.576
then they get more racist, homophobic,[br]they want to kick out the deviants.

0:06:29.600,0:06:32.456
So it's in part that you get[br]an authoritarian reaction.

0:06:32.480,0:06:36.296
The left, following through[br]the Leninist line, the John Lennon line,

0:06:36.320,0:06:38.696
does things that create[br]an authoritarian reaction.

0:06:38.720,0:06:41.656
So we're certainly seeing that[br]in America with the ultraright.

0:06:41.680,0:06:44.336
We saw it in Britain,[br]we're seeing that all over Europe.

0:06:44.360,0:06:46.816
But the more positive part of that

0:06:46.840,0:06:51.136
is that I think the localists,[br]or the nationalists are actually right.

0:06:51.160,0:06:54.976
That if you emphasize[br]our cultural similarity,

0:06:55.000,0:06:57.136
then race doesn't[br]actually matter very much.

0:06:57.160,0:06:59.936
So an assimilationist[br]approach to immigration

0:06:59.960,0:07:01.536
removes a lot of these problems.

0:07:01.560,0:07:03.936
And if you value having[br]a generous welfare state,

0:07:03.960,0:07:06.200
you've got to emphasize[br]that we're all the same.

0:07:06.840,0:07:09.816
CA: OK, so rising immigration[br]and fears about that

0:07:09.840,0:07:13.056
are one of the causes[br]of the current divide.

0:07:13.080,0:07:14.776
What are other causes?

0:07:14.800,0:07:16.896
JH: The next principle of moral psychology

0:07:16.920,0:07:20.696
is that intuitions come first,[br]strategic reasoning second.

0:07:20.720,0:07:23.376
And you've probably heard[br]the term "motivated reasoning"

0:07:23.400,0:07:24.856
or "confirmation bias."

0:07:24.880,0:07:26.776
So there's some really interesting work

0:07:26.800,0:07:29.856
on how our high intelligence[br]and our verbal abilities

0:07:29.880,0:07:33.096
might have evolved[br]not to help us find out the truth,

0:07:33.120,0:07:36.096
but to help us manipulate each other,[br]defend a reputation.

0:07:36.120,0:07:39.096
We're really, really good[br]at justifying ourselves.

0:07:39.120,0:07:41.456
And if you bring[br]group interests into account,

0:07:41.480,0:07:44.176
so it's not just me,[br]it's my team versus your team,

0:07:44.200,0:07:47.256
you know, if you're evaluating evidence[br]that your side is wrong,

0:07:47.280,0:07:48.936
we just can't accept that.

0:07:48.960,0:07:51.616
And so this is why[br]you can't win a political argument.

0:07:51.640,0:07:53.056
If you're debating something,

0:07:53.080,0:07:56.256
you can't persuade the person[br]with reasons and evidence.

0:07:56.280,0:07:58.656
Because that's not[br]the way reasoning works.

0:07:58.680,0:08:00.656
And so, now give us the Internet.

0:08:00.680,0:08:01.896
Give us Google.

0:08:01.920,0:08:05.176
You know, "I heard that Barack Obama[br]was born in Kenya,

0:08:05.200,0:08:06.416
let me Google that.

0:08:06.440,0:08:09.096
Oh my God! 10 million hits! Look, he was!"

0:08:09.120,0:08:11.976
CA: So this is an unpleasant surprise[br]to a lot of people.

0:08:12.000,0:08:15.216
The social media has often been framed[br]by technooptimists

0:08:15.240,0:08:20.856
as this great connecting force[br]that would bring people together.

0:08:20.880,0:08:24.856
And there have been[br]some unexpected countereffects to that.

0:08:24.880,0:08:27.256
JH: That's right.[br]And that's why I'm very enamored

0:08:27.280,0:08:30.016
of sort of ying-yang views[br]of human nature and left-right.

0:08:30.040,0:08:32.535
That each side is right[br]about certain things,

0:08:32.559,0:08:34.655
but then it goes blind to other things.

0:08:34.679,0:08:37.736
And so the left generally believes[br]that human nature is good,

0:08:37.760,0:08:40.856
bring people together,[br]knock down the walls and all will be well.

0:08:40.880,0:08:43.456
The right -- social conservatives,[br]not libertarians --

0:08:43.480,0:08:45.576
social conservatives generally believe

0:08:45.600,0:08:49.016
people can be greedy[br]and sexual and selfish,

0:08:49.040,0:08:52.536
and we need regulation,[br]and we need restrictions.

0:08:52.560,0:08:54.576
So yeah, if you knock down[br]all the walls --

0:08:54.600,0:08:56.936
a lot of people communicate[br]all over the world --

0:08:56.960,0:08:58.960
you get a lot of porn and a lot of racism.

0:08:58.984,0:09:00.240
CA: So help us understand.

0:09:00.264,0:09:05.720
These principles of human nature[br]have been with us forever.

0:09:06.440,0:09:11.120
What's changed that's deepened[br]this feeling of division?

0:09:12.360,0:09:17.016
JH: You have to see six to 10 different[br]threads all coming together.

0:09:17.040,0:09:19.216
I'll just list a couple of them.

0:09:19.240,0:09:23.816
So in America --[br]actually, in America and Europe --

0:09:23.840,0:09:25.776
one of the biggest ones is World War II.

0:09:25.800,0:09:28.456
There's interesting research[br]from Joe Henrich and others

0:09:28.480,0:09:30.776
that if your country was at war,

0:09:30.800,0:09:32.416
especially when you were young,

0:09:32.440,0:09:35.416
then we test you 30 years later[br]in a commons dilemma,

0:09:35.440,0:09:36.896
or a prisoner's dilemma,

0:09:36.920,0:09:38.856
you're more cooperative.

0:09:38.880,0:09:41.816
Because of our tribal nature, if you're --

0:09:41.840,0:09:44.456
You know, my parents were teenagers[br]during World War II

0:09:44.480,0:09:47.536
and, you know, they would go out[br]looking for scraps of aluminum,

0:09:47.560,0:09:48.816
to help the war effort.

0:09:48.840,0:09:50.736
I mean, everybody pulled together.

0:09:50.760,0:09:52.256
And so then these people go on,

0:09:52.280,0:09:54.456
they rise up through business[br]and government,

0:09:54.480,0:09:56.336
they take leadership positions.

0:09:56.360,0:09:59.616
They're really good[br]at compromise and cooperation.

0:09:59.640,0:10:01.496
They all retire by the 90's.

0:10:01.520,0:10:04.936
So we're left with baby-boomers[br]by the end of the 90's.

0:10:04.960,0:10:08.896
And their youth was spent[br]fighting each other within each country,

0:10:08.920,0:10:10.616
1968 and afterwards.

0:10:10.640,0:10:13.376
So the loss of[br]the World War II generation,

0:10:13.400,0:10:16.336
the greatest generation, is huge.

0:10:16.360,0:10:18.416
So that's one.

0:10:18.440,0:10:21.896
Another in America[br]is the purification of the two parties.

0:10:21.920,0:10:24.976
There used to be liberal Republicans[br]and conservative Democrats.

0:10:25.000,0:10:28.176
So the mid-20th century,[br]that was really bipartisan.

0:10:28.200,0:10:32.456
But because of a variety of factors[br]that started things moving

0:10:32.480,0:10:35.856
by the 90's we had purified[br]liberal party and conservative party.

0:10:35.880,0:10:38.736
And so now the people[br]in those parties really are different.

0:10:38.760,0:10:41.416
And now we really don't want[br]our children to marry them,

0:10:41.440,0:10:43.496
which in the 60's didn't matter very much.

0:10:43.520,0:10:45.216
So the purification of the parties.

0:10:45.240,0:10:46.496
Third is the Internet.

0:10:46.520,0:10:47.736
And as I said,

0:10:47.760,0:10:52.176
it's just the most amazing stimulant[br]for post hoc reasoning and demonization.

0:10:52.200,0:10:57.256
CA: The tone of what's happening[br]on the Internet now is quite troubling.

0:10:57.280,0:10:59.896
I just did a quick search on Twitter[br]about the election

0:10:59.920,0:11:03.496
and saw two tweets next to each other.

0:11:03.520,0:11:07.936
One against a picture[br]of a sort of racist graffiti.

0:11:07.960,0:11:09.536
"This is disgusting,

0:11:09.560,0:11:13.376
Ugliness in this country,[br]brought to us by #Trump."

0:11:13.400,0:11:15.256
And then the next one is:

0:11:15.280,0:11:19.056
"Crooked Hillary[br]dedication page. Disgusting!"

0:11:19.080,0:11:23.296
So this idea of disgust[br]is troubling to me.

0:11:23.320,0:11:26.496
Because you can have an argument[br]or a disagreement about something,

0:11:26.520,0:11:27.901
you can get angry at someone.

0:11:29.040,0:11:32.656
Disgust, I've heard you say,[br]takes things to a much deeper level.

0:11:32.680,0:11:34.576
JH: That's right. Disgust is different.

0:11:34.600,0:11:38.376
Anger, you know -- I have kids,[br]they fight 10 times a day,

0:11:38.400,0:11:40.336
and they love each other 30 times a day.

0:11:40.360,0:11:44.416
You just go back and forth.[br]You get angry, you're not angry.

0:11:44.440,0:11:45.936
But disgust is different.

0:11:45.960,0:11:50.656
Disgust paints the person[br]as being subhuman, monstrous,

0:11:50.680,0:11:52.256
deformed -- morally deformed.

0:11:52.280,0:11:55.656
Disgust is like indelible ink.

0:11:55.680,0:11:59.216
There's research from John Gottman[br]on marital therapy.

0:11:59.240,0:12:00.576
If you look at the faces,

0:12:00.600,0:12:04.376
if one of the couple[br]shows disgust or contempt,

0:12:04.400,0:12:07.496
that's a predictor that[br]they're going to get divorced soon.

0:12:07.520,0:12:10.696
Whereas if they show anger,[br]that actually doesn't predict anything.

0:12:10.720,0:12:13.416
Because if you deal with anger well,[br]it actually is good.

0:12:13.440,0:12:14.869
So this election is different.

0:12:14.893,0:12:18.176
Donald Trump personally[br]uses the word "disgust" a lot.

0:12:18.200,0:12:21.176
He's very germ-sensitive,[br]so disgust does matter a lot.

0:12:21.200,0:12:25.136
More for him,[br]that is something unique to him,

0:12:25.160,0:12:27.896
but as we demonize each other more,

0:12:27.920,0:12:31.416
and again, through[br]the Manichaean worldview,

0:12:31.440,0:12:34.176
the idea that the world[br]is a battle between good and evil,

0:12:34.200,0:12:35.576
as this has been ramping up,

0:12:35.600,0:12:38.656
we're likely not just to say[br]they're wrong or I don't like them,

0:12:38.680,0:12:41.096
but we say they're evil, they're satanic,

0:12:41.120,0:12:43.496
they're disgusting, they're revolting.

0:12:43.520,0:12:46.696
And then we want nothing to do with them.

0:12:46.720,0:12:48.496
And that's why I think we see --

0:12:48.520,0:12:50.425
We're seeing it, for example, on campus.

0:12:50.449,0:12:53.136
Now we're seeing more[br]the urge to keep people off campus.

0:12:53.160,0:12:54.856
Silence them, keep them away.

0:12:54.880,0:12:57.456
I'm afraid that this whole[br]generation of young people,

0:12:57.480,0:13:01.176
if their introduction to politics[br]involves a lot of disgust,

0:13:01.200,0:13:03.696
they're not going to want[br]to be involved in politics,

0:13:03.720,0:13:05.456
as they get older.

0:13:05.480,0:13:07.296
CA: So how do we deal with that?

0:13:07.320,0:13:11.600
Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?

0:13:12.280,0:13:13.480
JH: