0:00:00.936,0:00:03.136
Chris Anderson: So, Jon, this feels scary.

0:00:03.160,0:00:04.325
Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.

0:00:04.349,0:00:06.339
CA: It feels like the world is in a place

0:00:06.363,0:00:08.200
that we haven't seen for a long time.

0:00:08.224,0:00:12.785
People don't just disagree[br]in the way that we're familiar with,

0:00:12.809,0:00:14.709
on the left-right political divide.

0:00:14.733,0:00:17.734
There are much deeper differences afoot.

0:00:17.758,0:00:21.024
What on earth is going on,[br]and how did we get here?

0:00:21.048,0:00:24.051
JH: This is different.

0:00:24.075,0:00:27.302
There's a much more[br]apocalyptic sort of feeling.

0:00:27.326,0:00:29.652
Survey research by Pew Research shows

0:00:29.676,0:00:33.385
that the degree to which we feel[br]that the other side is not just --

0:00:33.409,0:00:36.383
we don't just dislike them;[br]we strongly dislike them,

0:00:36.407,0:00:39.883
and we think that they are[br]a threat to the nation.

0:00:39.907,0:00:41.871
Those numbers have been going up and up,

0:00:41.895,0:00:44.632
and those are over 50 percent[br]now on both sides.

0:00:44.656,0:00:45.807
People are scared,

0:00:45.831,0:00:49.458
because it feels like this is different[br]than before; it's much more intense.

0:00:49.482,0:00:52.002
Whenever I look[br]at any sort of social puzzle,

0:00:52.026,0:00:55.143
I always apply the three basic[br]principles of moral psychology,

0:00:55.167,0:00:57.061
and I think they'll help us here.

0:00:57.085,0:00:59.818
So the first thing that you[br]have to always keep in mind

0:00:59.842,0:01:01.578
when you're thinking about politics

0:01:01.602,0:01:02.982
is that we're tribal.

0:01:03.006,0:01:04.529
We evolved for tribalism.

0:01:04.553,0:01:07.722
One of the simplest and greatest[br]insights into human social nature

0:01:07.746,0:01:08.919
is the Bedouin proverb:

0:01:08.943,0:01:10.335
"Me against my brother;

0:01:10.359,0:01:12.286
me and my brother against our cousin;

0:01:12.310,0:01:14.812
me and my brother and cousins[br]against the stranger."

0:01:14.836,0:01:19.560
And that tribalism allowed us[br]to create large societies

0:01:19.584,0:01:22.616
and to come together[br]in order to compete with others.

0:01:22.640,0:01:26.321
That brought us out of the jungle[br]and out of small groups,

0:01:26.345,0:01:28.368
but it means that we have[br]eternal conflict.

0:01:28.392,0:01:30.133
The question you have to look at is:

0:01:30.157,0:01:32.821
What aspects of our society[br]are making that more bitter,

0:01:32.845,0:01:34.375
and what are calming them down?

0:01:34.399,0:01:35.960
CA: That's a very dark proverb.

0:01:35.984,0:01:40.157
You're saying that that's actually[br]baked into most people's mental wiring

0:01:40.181,0:01:41.332
at some level?

0:01:41.356,0:01:45.160
JH: Oh, absolutely. This is just[br]a basic aspect of human social cognition.

0:01:45.184,0:01:47.507
But we can also live together[br]really peacefully,

0:01:47.531,0:01:50.926
and we've invented all kinds[br]of fun ways of, like, playing war.

0:01:50.950,0:01:52.332
I mean, sports, politics --

0:01:52.356,0:01:56.051
these are all ways that we get[br]to exercise this tribal nature

0:01:56.075,0:01:57.658
without actually hurting anyone.

0:01:57.682,0:02:02.027
We're also really good at trade[br]and exploration and meeting new people.

0:02:02.051,0:02:05.350
So you have to see our tribalism[br]as something that goes up or down --

0:02:05.374,0:02:08.226
it's not like we're doomed[br]to always be fighting each other,

0:02:08.250,0:02:10.100
but we'll never have world peace.

0:02:10.980,0:02:14.202
CA: The size of that tribe[br]can shrink or expand.

0:02:14.226,0:02:15.377
JH: Right.

0:02:15.401,0:02:17.388
CA: The size of what we consider "us"

0:02:17.412,0:02:19.833
and what we consider "other" or "them"

0:02:19.857,0:02:21.987
can change.

0:02:22.610,0:02:28.200
And some people believed that process[br]could continue indefinitely.

0:02:28.224,0:02:29.416
JH: That's right.

0:02:29.440,0:02:32.646
CA: And we were indeed expanding[br]the sense of tribe for a while.

0:02:32.670,0:02:33.831
JH: So this is, I think,

0:02:33.855,0:02:37.210
where we're getting at what's possibly[br]the new left-right distinction.

0:02:37.234,0:02:39.557
I mean, the left-right[br]as we've all inherited it,

0:02:39.581,0:02:42.420
comes out of the labor[br]versus capital distinction,

0:02:42.444,0:02:44.819
and the working class, and Marx.

0:02:44.843,0:02:47.092
But I think what we're seeing[br]now, increasingly,

0:02:47.116,0:02:49.970
is a divide in all the Western democracies

0:02:49.994,0:02:53.701
between the people[br]who want to stop at nation,

0:02:53.725,0:02:55.475
the people who are more parochial --

0:02:55.499,0:02:57.296
and I don't mean that in a bad way --

0:02:57.320,0:03:00.120
people who have much more[br]of a sense of being rooted,

0:03:00.144,0:03:03.337
they care about their town,[br]their community and their nation.

0:03:03.824,0:03:07.861
And then those who are[br]anti-parochial and who --

0:03:07.885,0:03:11.285
whenever I get confused, I just think[br]of the John Lennon song "Imagine."

0:03:11.309,0:03:14.138
"Imagine there's no countries,[br]nothing to kill or die for."

0:03:14.162,0:03:17.375
And so these are the people[br]who want more global governance,

0:03:17.399,0:03:20.073
they don't like nation states,[br]they don't like borders.

0:03:20.097,0:03:21.922
You see this all over Europe as well.

0:03:21.946,0:03:25.172
There's a great metaphor guy --[br]actually, his name is Shakespeare --

0:03:25.196,0:03:26.777
writing ten years ago in Britain.

0:03:26.801,0:03:27.968
He had a metaphor:

0:03:27.992,0:03:31.265
"Are we drawbridge-uppers[br]or drawbridge-downers?"

0:03:31.289,0:03:34.194
And Britain is divided[br]52-48 on that point.

0:03:34.218,0:03:36.338
And America is divided on that point, too.

0:03:37.379,0:03:40.956
CA: And so, those of us[br]who grew up with The Beatles

0:03:40.980,0:03:44.554
and that sort of hippie philosophy[br]of dreaming of a more connected world --

0:03:44.578,0:03:48.419
it felt so idealistic and "how could[br]anyone think badly about that?"

0:03:48.736,0:03:50.747
And what you're saying is that, actually,

0:03:50.771,0:03:55.073
millions of people today[br]feel that that isn't just silly;

0:03:55.097,0:03:57.958
it's actually dangerous and wrong,[br]and they're scared of it.

0:03:57.982,0:04:01.008
JH: I think the big issue, especially[br]in Europe but also here,

0:04:01.032,0:04:02.399
is the issue of immigration.

0:04:02.423,0:04:05.492
And I think this is where[br]we have to look very carefully

0:04:05.516,0:04:09.147
at the social science[br]about diversity and immigration.

0:04:09.171,0:04:10.885
Once something becomes politicized,

0:04:10.909,0:04:13.933
once it becomes something[br]that the left loves and the right --

0:04:13.957,0:04:17.058
then even the social scientists[br]can't think straight about it.

0:04:17.082,0:04:19.039
Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.

0:04:19.063,0:04:21.270
It clearly creates more innovation.

0:04:21.294,0:04:23.771
The American economy[br]has grown enormously from it.

0:04:23.795,0:04:26.177
Diversity and immigration[br]do a lot of good things.

0:04:26.201,0:04:28.829
But what the globalists,[br]I think, don't see,

0:04:28.853,0:04:30.360
what they don't want to see,

0:04:30.384,0:04:36.662
is that ethnic diversity[br]cuts social capital and trust.

0:04:36.686,0:04:39.022
There's a very important[br]study by Robert Putnam,

0:04:39.046,0:04:40.902
the author of "Bowling Alone,"

0:04:40.926,0:04:42.781
looking at social capital databases.

0:04:42.805,0:04:45.752
And basically, the more people[br]feel that they are the same,

0:04:45.776,0:04:47.283
the more they trust each other,

0:04:47.307,0:04:50.047
the more they can have[br]a redistributionist welfare state.

0:04:50.071,0:04:52.042
Scandinavian countries are so wonderful

0:04:52.066,0:04:55.415
because they have this legacy[br]of being small, homogenous countries.

0:04:55.439,0:04:59.156
And that leads to[br]a progressive welfare state,

0:04:59.180,0:05:01.983
a set of progressive[br]left-leaning values, which says,

0:05:02.007,0:05:05.008
"Drawbridge down![br]The world is a great place.

0:05:05.032,0:05:08.064
People in Syria are suffering --[br]we must welcome them in."

0:05:08.088,0:05:09.465
And it's a beautiful thing.

0:05:09.934,0:05:12.517
But if, and I was in Sweden[br]this summer,

0:05:12.541,0:05:15.724
if the discourse in Sweden[br]is fairly politically correct

0:05:15.748,0:05:17.985
and they can't talk about the downsides,

0:05:18.009,0:05:19.996
you end up bringing a lot of people in.

0:05:20.020,0:05:21.712
That's going to cut social capital,

0:05:21.736,0:05:23.681
it makes it hard to have a welfare state

0:05:23.705,0:05:26.261
and they might end up,[br]as we have in America,

0:05:26.285,0:05:29.898
with a racially divided, visibly[br]racially divided, society.

0:05:29.922,0:05:32.182
So this is all very[br]uncomfortable to talk about.

0:05:32.206,0:05:35.451
But I think this is the thing,[br]especially in Europe and for us, too,

0:05:35.475,0:05:36.668
we need to be looking at.

0:05:36.692,0:05:38.778
CA: You're saying that people of reason,

0:05:38.802,0:05:41.290
people who would consider[br]themselves not racists,

0:05:41.314,0:05:43.041
but moral, upstanding people,

0:05:43.065,0:05:46.011
have a rationale that says[br]humans are just too different;

0:05:46.035,0:05:51.474
that we're in danger of overloading[br]our sense of what humans are capable of,

0:05:51.498,0:05:53.988
by mixing in people who are too different.

0:05:54.012,0:05:57.552
JH: Yes, but I can make it[br]much more palatable

0:05:57.576,0:06:00.374
by saying it's not necessarily about race.

0:06:00.819,0:06:02.086
It's about culture.

0:06:02.110,0:06:06.283
There's wonderful work by a political[br]scientist named Karen Stenner,

0:06:06.307,0:06:09.534
who shows that when people have a sense

0:06:09.558,0:06:11.793
that we are all united,[br]we're all the same,

0:06:11.817,0:06:15.067
there are many people who have[br]a predisposition to authoritarianism.

0:06:15.091,0:06:17.133
Those people aren't particularly racist

0:06:17.157,0:06:19.324
when they feel as through[br]there's not a threat

0:06:19.348,0:06:21.047
to our social and moral order.

0:06:21.071,0:06:23.104
But if you prime them experimentally

0:06:23.128,0:06:26.260
by thinking we're coming apart,[br]people are getting more different,

0:06:26.284,0:06:29.807
then they get more racist, homophobic,[br]they want to kick out the deviants.

0:06:29.831,0:06:32.738
So it's in part that you get[br]an authoritarian reaction.

0:06:32.762,0:06:35.099
The left, following through[br]the Lennonist line --

0:06:35.123,0:06:36.409
the John Lennon line --

0:06:36.433,0:06:38.842
does things that create[br]an authoritarian reaction.

0:06:38.866,0:06:41.661
We're certainly seeing that[br]in America with the alt-right.

0:06:41.685,0:06:44.267
We saw it in Britain,[br]we've seen it all over Europe.

0:06:44.291,0:06:46.873
But the more positive part of that

0:06:46.897,0:06:51.194
is that I think the localists,[br]or the nationalists, are actually right --

0:06:51.218,0:06:55.005
that, if you emphasize[br]our cultural similarity,

0:06:55.029,0:06:57.256
then race doesn't actually[br]matter very much.

0:06:57.280,0:06:59.988
So an assimilationist[br]approach to immigration

0:07:00.012,0:07:01.569
removes a lot of these problems.

0:07:01.593,0:07:03.980
And if you value having[br]a generous welfare state,

0:07:04.004,0:07:06.477
you've got to emphasize[br]that we're all the same.

0:07:06.840,0:07:09.934
CA: OK, so rising immigration[br]and fears about that

0:07:09.958,0:07:13.125
are one of the causes[br]of the current divide.

0:07:13.149,0:07:14.862
What are other causes?

0:07:14.886,0:07:16.907
JH: The next principle of moral psychology

0:07:16.931,0:07:20.734
is that intuitions come first,[br]strategic reasoning second.

0:07:20.758,0:07:23.238
You've probably heard[br]the term "motivated reasoning"

0:07:23.262,0:07:24.869
or "confirmation bias."

0:07:24.893,0:07:26.810
There's some really interesting work

0:07:26.834,0:07:29.911
on how our high intelligence[br]and our verbal abilities

0:07:29.935,0:07:33.137
might have evolved[br]not to help us find out the truth,

0:07:33.161,0:07:36.133
but to help us manipulate each other,[br]defend our reputation ...

0:07:36.157,0:07:39.123
We're really, really good[br]at justifying ourselves.

0:07:39.147,0:07:41.514
And when you bring[br]group interests into account,

0:07:41.538,0:07:44.275
so it's not just me,[br]it's my team versus your team,

0:07:44.299,0:07:47.212
whereas if you're evaluating evidence[br]that your side is wrong,

0:07:47.236,0:07:48.993
we just can't accept that.

0:07:49.017,0:07:51.734
So this is why you can't win[br]a political argument.

0:07:51.758,0:07:53.251
If you're debating something,

0:07:53.275,0:07:56.322
you can't persuade the person[br]with reasons and evidence,

0:07:56.346,0:07:58.691
because that's not[br]the way reasoning works.

0:07:58.715,0:08:01.830
So now, give us the internet,[br]give us Google:

0:08:02.522,0:08:05.252
"I heard that Barack Obama[br]was born in Kenya.

0:08:05.276,0:08:09.224
Let me Google that -- oh my God![br]10 million hits! Look, he was!"

0:08:09.248,0:08:12.388
CA: So this has come as an unpleasant[br]surprise to a lot of people.

0:08:12.412,0:08:15.260
Social media has often been framed[br]by techno-optimists

0:08:15.284,0:08:20.531
as this great connecting force[br]that would bring people together.

0:08:20.555,0:08:24.477
And there have been some[br]unexpected counter-effects to that.

0:08:24.922,0:08:26.073
JH: That's right.

0:08:26.097,0:08:28.478
That's why I'm very enamored[br]of yin-yang views

0:08:28.502,0:08:30.120
of human nature and left-right --

0:08:30.144,0:08:32.610
that each side is right[br]about certain things,

0:08:32.634,0:08:34.755
but then it goes blind to other things.

0:08:34.779,0:08:37.757
And so the left generally believes[br]that human nature is good:

0:08:37.781,0:08:40.946
bring people together, knock down[br]the walls and all will be well.

0:08:40.970,0:08:43.528
The right -- social conservatives,[br]not libertarians --

0:08:43.552,0:08:47.805
social conservatives generally[br]believe people can be greedy

0:08:47.829,0:08:49.211
and sexual and selfish,

0:08:49.235,0:08:51.655
and we need regulation,[br]and we need restrictions.

0:08:52.214,0:08:54.616
So, yeah, if you knock down all the walls,

0:08:54.640,0:08:56.869
allow people to communicate[br]all over the world,

0:08:56.893,0:08:58.951
you get a lot of porn and a lot of racism.

0:08:58.975,0:09:00.236
CA: So help us understand.

0:09:00.260,0:09:05.812
These principles of human nature[br]have been with us forever.

0:09:06.918,0:09:11.692
What's changed that's deepened[br]this feeling of division?

0:09:12.360,0:09:17.016
JH: You have to see six to ten[br]different threads all coming together.

0:09:17.373,0:09:19.066
I'll just list a couple of them.

0:09:19.398,0:09:23.876
So in America, one of the big --[br]actually, America and Europe --

0:09:23.900,0:09:25.813
one of the biggest ones is World War II.

0:09:25.837,0:09:28.480
There's interesting research[br]from Joe Henrich and others

0:09:28.504,0:09:30.907
that says if your country was at war,

0:09:30.931,0:09:32.488
especially when you were young,

0:09:32.512,0:09:35.626
then we test you 30 years later[br]in a commons dilemma

0:09:35.650,0:09:36.979
or a prisoner's dilemma,

0:09:37.003,0:09:38.294
you're more cooperative.

0:09:38.983,0:09:41.856
Because of our tribal nature, if you're --

0:09:41.880,0:09:44.797
my parents were teenagers[br]during World War II,

0:09:44.821,0:09:47.382
and they would go out[br]looking for scraps of aluminum

0:09:47.406,0:09:48.595
to help the war effort.

0:09:48.619,0:09:50.797
I mean, everybody pulled together.

0:09:50.821,0:09:52.350
And so then these people go on,

0:09:52.374,0:09:54.772
they rise up through business[br]and government,

0:09:54.796,0:09:56.427
they take leadership positions.

0:09:56.451,0:09:59.702
They're really good[br]at compromise and cooperation.

0:09:59.726,0:10:01.661
They all retire by the '90s.

0:10:01.685,0:10:04.986
So we're left with baby boomers[br]by the end of the '90s.

0:10:05.010,0:10:08.977
And their youth was spent fighting[br]each other within each country,

0:10:09.001,0:10:10.648
in 1968 and afterwards.

0:10:10.672,0:10:14.666
The loss of the World War II generation,[br]"The Greatest Generation,"

0:10:14.690,0:10:15.974
is huge.

0:10:16.567,0:10:17.742
So that's one.

0:10:18.440,0:10:21.563
Another, in America,[br]is the purification of the two parties.

0:10:21.949,0:10:24.996
There used to be liberal Republicans[br]and conservative Democrats.

0:10:25.020,0:10:28.187
So America had a mid-20th century[br]that was really bipartisan.

0:10:28.211,0:10:32.578
But because of a variety of factors[br]that started things moving,

0:10:32.602,0:10:36.000
by the 90's, we had a purified[br]liberal party and conservative party.

0:10:36.024,0:10:38.669
So now, the people in either party[br]really are different,

0:10:38.693,0:10:41.176
and we really don't want[br]our children to marry them,

0:10:41.200,0:10:43.268
which, in the '60s,[br]didn't matter very much.

0:10:43.292,0:10:45.089
So, the purification of the parties.

0:10:45.113,0:10:47.585
Third is the internet and, as I said,

0:10:47.609,0:10:52.292
it's just the most amazing stimulant[br]for post-hoc reasoning and demonization.

0:10:52.316,0:10:57.108
CA: The tone of what's happening[br]on the internet now is quite troubling.

0:10:57.132,0:10:59.979
I just did a quick search[br]on Twitter about the election

0:11:00.003,0:11:02.923
and saw two tweets next to each other.

0:11:03.335,0:11:07.547
One, against a picture of racist graffiti:

0:11:08.007,0:11:09.640
"This is disgusting!

0:11:09.664,0:11:12.834
Ugliness in this country,[br]brought to us by #Trump."

0:11:13.424,0:11:14.806
And then the next one is:

0:11:15.339,0:11:18.642
"Crooked Hillary[br]dedication page. Disgusting!"

0:11:19.176,0:11:23.383
So this idea of "disgust"[br]is troubling to me.

0:11:23.407,0:11:26.642
Because you can have an argument[br]or a disagreement about something,

0:11:26.666,0:11:28.227
you can get angry at someone.

0:11:29.094,0:11:32.687
Disgust, I've heard you say,[br]takes things to a much deeper level.

0:11:32.711,0:11:34.598
JH: That's right. Disgust is different.

0:11:34.622,0:11:36.585
Anger -- you know, I have kids.

0:11:36.609,0:11:38.359
They fight 10 times a day,

0:11:38.383,0:11:40.350
and they love each other 30 times a day.

0:11:40.374,0:11:43.284
You just go back and forth:[br]you get angry, you're not angry;

0:11:43.308,0:11:44.831
you're angry, you're not angry.

0:11:44.855,0:11:46.165
But disgust is different.

0:11:46.189,0:11:50.662
Disgust paints the person[br]as subhuman, monstrous,

0:11:50.686,0:11:52.495
deformed, morally deformed.

0:11:52.519,0:11:54.943
Disgust is like indelible ink.

0:11:55.768,0:11:59.283
There's research from John Gottman[br]on marital therapy.

0:11:59.307,0:12:04.432
If you look at the faces -- if one[br]of the couple shows disgust or contempt,

0:12:04.456,0:12:07.552
that's a predictor that they're going[br]to get divorced soon,

0:12:07.576,0:12:10.475
whereas if they show anger,[br]that doesn't predict anything,

0:12:10.499,0:12:13.208
because if you deal with anger well,[br]it actually is good.

0:12:13.232,0:12:14.684
So this election is different.

0:12:14.708,0:12:18.362
Donald Trump personally[br]uses the word "disgust" a lot.

0:12:18.386,0:12:21.243
He's very germ-sensitive,[br]so disgust does matter a lot --

0:12:21.267,0:12:25.177
more for him, that's something[br]unique to him --

0:12:25.201,0:12:28.104
but as we demonize each other more,

0:12:28.128,0:12:31.537
and again, through[br]the Manichaean worldview,

0:12:31.561,0:12:34.291
the idea that the world[br]is a battle between good and evil

0:12:34.315,0:12:35.662
as this has been ramping up,

0:12:35.686,0:12:39.012
we're more likely not just to say[br]they're wrong or I don't like them,

0:12:39.036,0:12:41.572
but we say they're evil, they're satanic,

0:12:41.596,0:12:43.517
they're disgusting, they're revolting.

0:12:43.541,0:12:46.407
And then we want nothing to do with them.

0:12:46.806,0:12:50.293
And that's why I think we're seeing it,[br]for example, on campus now.

0:12:50.317,0:12:52.957
We're seeing more the urge[br]to keep people off campus,

0:12:52.981,0:12:54.926
silence them, keep them away.

0:12:54.950,0:12:57.545
I'm afraid that this whole[br]generation of young people,

0:12:57.569,0:13:01.362
if their introduction to politics[br]involves a lot of disgust,

0:13:01.386,0:13:05.091
they're not going to want to be involved[br]in politics as they get older.

0:13:05.506,0:13:07.346
CA: So how do we deal with that?

0:13:07.370,0:13:11.850
Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?

0:13:12.874,0:13:14.822
JH: You can't do it with reasons.

0:13:15.312,0:13:16.503
I think ...

0:13:18.257,0:13:21.474
I studied disgust for many years,[br]and I think about emotions a lot.

0:13:21.498,0:13:25.023
And I think that the opposite[br]of disgust is actually love.

0:13:25.764,0:13:28.855
Love is all about, like ...

0:13:29.239,0:13:31.810
Disgust is closing off, borders.

0:13:31.834,0:13:34.379
Love is about dissolving walls.

0:13:35.074,0:13:37.554
So personal relationships, I think,

0:13:37.578,0:13:40.337
are probably the most[br]powerful means we have.

0:13:41.291,0:13:43.988
You can be disgusted by a group of people,

0:13:44.012,0:13:45.930
but then you meet a particular person

0:13:45.954,0:13:48.730
and you genuinely discover[br]that they're lovely.

0:13:48.754,0:13:53.050
And then gradually that chips away[br]or changes your category as well.

0:13:54.016,0:13:59.993
The tragedy is, Americans used to be[br]much more mixed up in the their towns

0:14:00.017,0:14:02.151
by left-right or politics.

0:14:02.175,0:14:04.506
And now that it's become[br]this great moral divide,

0:14:04.530,0:14:07.673
there's a lot of evidence[br]that we're moving to be near people

0:14:07.697,0:14:09.209
who are like us politically.

0:14:09.233,0:14:11.763
It's harder to find somebody[br]who's on the other side.

0:14:11.787,0:14:14.077
So they're over there, they're far away.

0:14:14.101,0:14:15.671
It's harder to get to know them.

0:14:15.695,0:14:19.919
CA: What would you say to someone[br]or say to Americans,

0:14:19.943,0:14:21.101
people generally,

0:14:21.125,0:14:23.734
about what we should understand[br]about each other

0:14:23.758,0:14:27.233
that might help us rethink for a minute

0:14:27.257,0:14:29.460
this "disgust" instinct?

0:14:30.086,0:14:31.238
JH: Yes.

0:14:31.262,0:14:33.415
A really important[br]thing to keep in mind --

0:14:33.439,0:14:38.155
there's research by political[br]scientist Alan Abramowitz,

0:14:38.179,0:14:42.172
showing that American democracy[br]is increasingly governed

0:14:42.196,0:14:44.439
by what's called "negative partisanship."

0:14:44.875,0:14:47.986
That means you think,[br]OK there's a candidate,

0:14:48.010,0:14:50.416
you like the candidate,[br]you vote for the candidate.

0:14:50.440,0:14:52.499
But with the rise of negative advertising

0:14:52.523,0:14:54.747
and social media[br]and all sorts of other trends,

0:14:54.771,0:14:56.812
increasingly, the way elections are done

0:14:56.836,0:15:00.817
is that each side tries to make[br]the other side so horrible, so awful,

0:15:00.841,0:15:02.882
that you'll vote for my guy by default.

0:15:03.319,0:15:06.289
And so as we more and more vote[br]against the other side

0:15:06.313,0:15:07.644
and not for our side,

0:15:07.668,0:15:13.175
you have to keep in mind[br]that if people are on the left,

0:15:13.199,0:15:16.109
they think, "Well, I used to think[br]that Republicans were bad,

0:15:16.133,0:15:17.616
but now Donald Trump proves it.

0:15:17.640,0:15:20.491
And now every Republican,[br]I can paint with all the things

0:15:20.515,0:15:21.897
that I think about Trump."

0:15:21.921,0:15:23.514
And that's not necessarily true.

0:15:23.538,0:15:26.230
They're generally not very happy[br]with their candidate.

0:15:26.254,0:15:30.970
This is the most negative partisanship[br]election in American history.

0:15:31.860,0:15:35.223
So you have to first separate[br]your feelings about the candidate

0:15:35.247,0:15:38.184
from your feelings about the people[br]who are given a choice.

0:15:38.208,0:15:40.691
And then you have to realize that,

0:15:41.246,0:15:43.666
because we all live[br]in a separate moral world --

0:15:43.690,0:15:47.141
the metaphor I use in the book[br]is that we're all trapped in "The Matrix,"

0:15:47.165,0:15:50.689
or each moral community is a matrix,[br]a consensual hallucination.

0:15:50.713,0:15:52.956
And so if you're within the blue matrix,

0:15:52.980,0:15:56.174
everything's completely compelling[br]that the other side --

0:15:56.198,0:15:59.829
they're troglodytes, they're racists,[br]they're the worst people in the world,

0:15:59.853,0:16:01.957
and you have all the facts[br]to back that up.

0:16:01.981,0:16:04.256
But somebody in the next house from yours

0:16:04.280,0:16:06.313
is living in a different moral matrix.

0:16:06.337,0:16:08.284
They live in a different video game,

0:16:08.308,0:16:10.686
and they see a completely[br]different set of facts.

0:16:10.710,0:16:13.386
And each one sees[br]different threats to the country.

0:16:13.410,0:16:15.500
And what I've found[br]from being in the middle

0:16:15.524,0:16:18.451
and trying to understand both sides[br]is: both sides are right.

0:16:18.475,0:16:20.595
There are a lot of threats[br]to this country,

0:16:20.619,0:16:24.104
and each side is constitutionally[br]incapable of seeing them all.

0:16:24.963,0:16:31.482
CA: So, are you saying[br]that we almost need a new type of empathy?

0:16:31.506,0:16:33.676
Empathy is traditionally framed as:

0:16:33.700,0:16:36.391
"Oh, I feel your pain.[br]I can put myself in your shoes."

0:16:36.415,0:16:39.344
And we apply it to the poor,[br]the needy, the suffering.

0:16:40.023,0:16:43.846
We don't usually apply it[br]to people who we feel as other,

0:16:43.870,0:16:45.335
or we're disgusted by.

0:16:45.359,0:16:46.510
JH: No. That's right.

0:16:46.534,0:16:51.364
CA: What would it look like[br]to build that type of empathy?

0:16:52.268,0:16:53.506
JH: Actually, I think ...

0:16:54.145,0:16:56.450
Empathy is a very, very[br]hot topic in psychology,

0:16:56.474,0:16:59.132
and it's a very popular word[br]on the left in particular.

0:16:59.156,0:17:03.156
Empathy is a good thing, and empathy[br]for the preferred classes of victims.

0:17:03.180,0:17:04.633
So it's important to empathize

0:17:04.657,0:17:07.481
with the groups that we on the left[br]think are so important.

0:17:07.505,0:17:10.036
That's easy to do,[br]because you get points for that.

0:17:10.442,0:17:14.091
But empathy really should get you points[br]if you do it when it's hard to do.

0:17:14.513,0:17:16.267
And, I think ...

0:17:16.291,0:17:21.379
You know, we had a long 50-year period[br]of dealing with our race problems

0:17:21.403,0:17:23.658
and legal discrimination,

0:17:23.682,0:17:25.869
and that was our top priority[br]for a long time

0:17:25.893,0:17:27.143
and it still is important.

0:17:27.167,0:17:28.696
But I think this year,

0:17:28.720,0:17:31.124
I'm hoping it will make people see

0:17:31.148,0:17:33.943
that we have an existential[br]threat on our hands.

0:17:33.967,0:17:36.634
Our left-right divide, I believe,

0:17:36.658,0:17:38.818
is by far the most important[br]divide we face.

0:17:38.842,0:17:41.873
We still have issues about race[br]and gender and LGBT,

0:17:41.897,0:17:45.268
but this is the urgent need[br]of the next 50 years,

0:17:45.292,0:17:48.153
and things aren't going[br]to get better on their own.

0:17:49.021,0:17:51.856
So we're going to need to do[br]a lot of institutional reforms,

0:17:51.880,0:17:53.289
and we could talk about that,

0:17:53.313,0:17:55.643
but that's like a whole long,[br]wonky conversation.

0:17:55.667,0:17:59.513
But I think it starts with people[br]realizing that this is a turning point.

0:17:59.537,0:18:02.346
And yes, we need a new kind of empathy.

0:18:02.370,0:18:03.875
We need to realize:

0:18:03.899,0:18:05.441
this is what our country needs,

0:18:05.465,0:18:07.819
and this is what you need[br]if you don't want to --

0:18:07.843,0:18:10.538
Raise your hand if you want[br]to spend the next four years

0:18:10.562,0:18:14.048
as angry and worried as you've been[br]for the last year -- raise your hand.

0:18:14.072,0:18:15.777
So if you want to escape from this,

0:18:15.801,0:18:17.952
read Buddha, read Jesus,[br]read Marcus Aurelius.

0:18:17.976,0:18:23.038
They have all kinds of great advice[br]for how to drop the fear,

0:18:23.062,0:18:24.240
reframe things,

0:18:24.264,0:18:26.347
stop seeing other people as your enemy.

0:18:26.371,0:18:29.678
There's a lot of guidance in ancient[br]wisdom for this kind of empathy.

0:18:29.702,0:18:31.079
CA: Here's my last question:

0:18:31.103,0:18:35.438
Personally, what can[br]people do to help heal?

0:18:35.462,0:18:39.545
JH: Yeah, it's very hard to just decide[br]to overcome your deepest prejudices.

0:18:39.569,0:18:41.030
And there's research showing

0:18:41.054,0:18:45.403
that political prejudices are deeper[br]and stronger than race prejudices

0:18:45.427,0:18:46.687
in the country now.

0:18:47.395,0:18:50.827
So I think you have to make an effort --[br]that's the main thing.

0:18:50.851,0:18:52.855
Make an effort to actually meet somebody.

0:18:52.879,0:18:55.089
Everybody has a cousin, a brother-in-law,

0:18:55.113,0:18:56.982
somebody who's on the other side.

0:18:57.006,0:18:58.822
So, after this election --

0:18:59.252,0:19:00.603
wait a week or two,

0:19:00.627,0:19:03.463
because it's probably going to feel[br]awful for one of you --

0:19:03.487,0:19:07.639
but wait a couple weeks, and then[br]reach out and say you want to talk.

0:19:07.663,0:19:09.087
And before you do it,

0:19:09.111,0:19:12.256
read Dale Carnegie, "How to Win[br]Friends and Influence People" --

0:19:12.280,0:19:13.319
(Laughter)

0:19:13.343,0:19:14.510
I'm totally serious.

0:19:14.534,0:19:17.124
You'll learn techniques[br]if you start by acknowledging,

0:19:17.148,0:19:18.309
if you start by saying,

0:19:18.333,0:19:20.003
"You know, we don't agree on a lot,

0:19:20.027,0:19:22.565
but one thing I really respect[br]about you, Uncle Bob,"

0:19:22.589,0:19:24.648
or "... about you conservatives, is ... "

0:19:24.672,0:19:26.006
And you can find something.

0:19:26.030,0:19:28.793
If you start with some[br]appreciation, it's like magic.

0:19:28.817,0:19:30.931
This is one of the main[br]things I've learned

0:19:30.955,0:19:32.868
that I take into my human relationships.

0:19:32.892,0:19:34.812
I still make lots of stupid mistakes,

0:19:34.836,0:19:36.852
but I'm incredibly good[br]at apologizing now,

0:19:36.876,0:19:39.293
and at acknowledging what[br]somebody was right about.

0:19:39.317,0:19:40.471
And if you do that,

0:19:40.495,0:19:43.989
then the conversation goes really well,[br]and it's actually really fun.

0:19:44.717,0:19:47.362
CA: Jon, it's absolutely fascinating[br]speaking with you.

0:19:47.386,0:19:51.144
It really does feel like[br]the ground that we're on

0:19:51.168,0:19:56.035
is a ground populated by deep questions[br]of morality and human nature.

0:19:56.366,0:19:58.790
Your wisdom couldn't be more relevant.

0:19:58.814,0:20:01.109
Thank you so much for sharing[br]this time with us.

0:20:01.133,0:20:02.285
JH: Thanks, Chris.

0:20:02.309,0:20:03.470
JH: Thanks, everyone.

0:20:03.494,0:20:05.494
(Applause)