1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,100 32C3 preroll music 2 00:00:10,100 --> 00:00:16,570 Herald: I’m happy to introduce Katharina Nocun. She is a… 3 00:00:16,570 --> 00:00:24,500 applause 4 00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:28,709 She’s a privacy activist and 5 00:00:28,709 --> 00:00:33,510 she worked for the Federation of German consumer organisations; 6 00:00:33,510 --> 00:00:37,760 and also for the German working group on Data Retention. 7 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,300 She was on the board of the German Pirate Party 8 00:00:41,300 --> 00:00:44,930 and nowadays she’s working for Campact 9 00:00:44,930 --> 00:00:48,060 as a campaigner for digital rights. 10 00:00:48,060 --> 00:00:53,080 Campact is an online petition platform here in Germany. 11 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,990 But also she’s an economist. 12 00:00:55,990 --> 00:01:00,170 And she did some research on why it is so difficult 13 00:01:00,170 --> 00:01:03,400 for decentralized social networks 14 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:08,370 to compete with Facebook. So it’s the perfect talk 15 00:01:08,370 --> 00:01:13,730 for the mission statement of this Congress – Katharina Nocun! 16 00:01:13,730 --> 00:01:21,010 applause 17 00:01:21,010 --> 00:01:24,670 Katharina Nocun: Yeah, thank you very much for this awesome introduction. 18 00:01:24,670 --> 00:01:28,740 And first of all I need to excuse myself: I catched a cold, so 19 00:01:28,740 --> 00:01:33,840 just imagine that I’m shouting at you all the time. Because I can’t. 20 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:40,700 Yeah, why did I do some research on the topic of Facebook and Diaspora? 21 00:01:40,700 --> 00:01:44,229 You know I really hate Facebook. During my time 22 00:01:44,229 --> 00:01:48,649 at the Federal consumer organization of Germany 23 00:01:48,649 --> 00:01:52,589 we sued Facebook a lot. We also sued Google a lot. 24 00:01:52,589 --> 00:01:56,749 And when I studied economics friends of me asked me: 25 00:01:56,749 --> 00:02:01,499 “Yeah, let’s found a Facebook Group and there we can exchange exams and… 26 00:02:01,499 --> 00:02:04,919 that’s so cool, that’s so awesome” and I said: “Yeah, well, no, 27 00:02:04,919 --> 00:02:10,460 I don’t have a Facebook account and I don’t want to”. 28 00:02:10,460 --> 00:02:15,610 applause 29 00:02:15,610 --> 00:02:20,200 And then I asked… I mean it worked out fine, 30 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,709 we opened a group on weriseup.net, 31 00:02:24,709 --> 00:02:28,850 so we exchanged our exams there. But still I asked myself 32 00:02:28,850 --> 00:02:33,420 why can’t I convince more people to join Diaspora or other networks. 33 00:02:33,420 --> 00:02:38,209 And that’s why I did this research project. 34 00:02:38,209 --> 00:02:42,349 So let’s talk about gated communities and the internet. 35 00:02:42,349 --> 00:02:47,599 The internet is based at large parts on free protocols, 36 00:02:47,599 --> 00:02:53,959 so everything is okay, isn’t it? 37 00:02:53,959 --> 00:02:56,960 Okay, everything is okay? 38 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:06,239 mumble and laughter from audience 39 00:03:06,239 --> 00:03:11,709 Yeah, in the beginning of the internet there were many many nodes 40 00:03:11,709 --> 00:03:15,610 and they were connected to one another as equals. And today 41 00:03:15,610 --> 00:03:19,140 the internet is a giant web which is interconnected 42 00:03:19,140 --> 00:03:22,790 with more and more aspects of all-eyes (?). But what started 43 00:03:22,790 --> 00:03:26,519 as a playground for nerds and scientists is not only today 44 00:03:26,519 --> 00:03:31,980 a powerful economic driving force but changes a lot of aspects of 45 00:03:31,980 --> 00:03:36,670 how economics work, how politics work and how public debates work. 46 00:03:36,670 --> 00:03:41,980 But it also changed in a way I really dislike. 47 00:03:41,980 --> 00:03:45,890 The main topic of this Congress is ‘Gated Communities’ 48 00:03:45,890 --> 00:03:49,930 and I think it’s a very important issue to address 49 00:03:49,930 --> 00:03:55,060 that above this open layer of the Internet, above this open protocol 50 00:03:55,060 --> 00:03:58,349 gated, closed islands of gated communities emerged 51 00:03:58,349 --> 00:04:03,409 and we see clear that those are trends for concentration 52 00:04:03,409 --> 00:04:08,739 in the hands of just a few platform owners. 53 00:04:08,739 --> 00:04:13,350 So what can we do about it? I think social networks are an important benchmark 54 00:04:13,350 --> 00:04:18,418 for these trends and, as an economist, I have a clear word for what is happening 55 00:04:18,418 --> 00:04:21,798 right now on many areas on the web: 56 00:04:21,798 --> 00:04:25,770 it’s market failure. Because there is no real competition 57 00:04:25,770 --> 00:04:28,859 possible with Facebook. There is no real competition possible 58 00:04:28,859 --> 00:04:34,140 with other large platforms. And that’s why this talk 59 00:04:34,140 --> 00:04:38,860 will try to explain why we should care that Facebook has become 60 00:04:38,860 --> 00:04:44,000 the de facto social network provider for large parts of the world 61 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,790 and how this came about. And, most importantly, 62 00:04:47,790 --> 00:04:51,870 what lessons we can draw from certain dynamics on the market, 63 00:04:51,870 --> 00:04:58,529 for market entry options for decentralized social networks. 64 00:04:58,529 --> 00:05:02,830 So, first of all, why should we care? 65 00:05:02,830 --> 00:05:06,080 Some numbers: if Facebook was a state, 66 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:11,960 it would have more inhabitants than Europe, China or the Americas. 67 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,610 And every fifth human being on this planet 68 00:05:15,610 --> 00:05:18,900 logs in on Facebook at least once per month. 69 00:05:18,900 --> 00:05:24,200 That’s an incredible number. And the reason for the success 70 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,169 of social networks as an idea is because it connects 71 00:05:28,169 --> 00:05:32,670 to a very basic human need for us. Because we are social creatures. 72 00:05:32,670 --> 00:05:37,310 So, I think, addressing this human need, 73 00:05:37,310 --> 00:05:40,840 that we are social, that we want to exchange, to share with one another, 74 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:44,950 is an incredible, cool, powerful idea. And 75 00:05:44,950 --> 00:05:49,050 social networks most importantly add context to content. 76 00:05:49,050 --> 00:05:53,800 It makes a difference if a friend of mine shares an article about Star Wars, 77 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,639 how stupid the new Star Wars movie is than some journalist just writes 78 00:05:57,639 --> 00:06:02,129 an article about it. And social networks are so important for us 79 00:06:02,129 --> 00:06:07,930 because the web is filled with information about everything. 80 00:06:07,930 --> 00:06:13,540 And social networks allow us to filter this information through social ties. 81 00:06:13,540 --> 00:06:17,729 And it’s not only the place where we can spread birthday messages, 82 00:06:17,729 --> 00:06:21,530 “Happy Birthday, I thought about you because Facebook reminded me 83 00:06:21,530 --> 00:06:27,480 I should do so”. But Facebook is also the place 84 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:34,849 where we can found groups, where we can not only exchange maybe exams 85 00:06:34,849 --> 00:06:40,759 for economics classes, but where we can call for action and organize protest. 86 00:06:40,759 --> 00:06:44,680 And, back then, when I studied in Hamburg, 87 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,400 there was a point where I registered on Facebook 88 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,859 under a fake name. I was called ‘Maria Musterfrau’. 89 00:06:52,859 --> 00:06:57,330 And this Maria Musterfrau founded different events 90 00:06:57,330 --> 00:07:04,120 on Facebook, for demonstration against the ACTA treaty. 91 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:09,580 ACTA, it was a treaty… 92 00:07:09,580 --> 00:07:13,789 it had a lot to do with copyrights, and 93 00:07:13,789 --> 00:07:18,030 also in some areas with privacy issues. And we called for action 94 00:07:18,030 --> 00:07:23,250 on the web, and 15,000 people came to our demonstration in Hamburg. 95 00:07:23,250 --> 00:07:27,740 So basically I think social networks are a very, very powerful idea 96 00:07:27,740 --> 00:07:31,500 to enhance democracy, freedom of speech. 97 00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:35,050 But, unfortunately, I don’t think that the structure of Facebook 98 00:07:35,050 --> 00:07:38,690 as the de facto social network provider of the world 99 00:07:38,690 --> 00:07:48,680 is the best way to provide this idea to the people. 100 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,800 So we heard a lot on TV, on the newspapers, 101 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,849 about the Facebook revolution; how the Facebook revolution would 102 00:07:55,849 --> 00:07:59,029 empower democracy etc., and freedom of speech. 103 00:07:59,029 --> 00:08:04,319 And, in fact, for generations, media institutions such as 104 00:08:04,319 --> 00:08:10,789 TV channels or newspapers were the gatekeepers for public debates. 105 00:08:10,789 --> 00:08:14,520 If you wanted to influence public debates 106 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:19,339 you needed to get past these gatekeepers. And it is true 107 00:08:19,339 --> 00:08:23,159 that the internet or social media allowed 108 00:08:23,159 --> 00:08:28,389 to implement setting a topic from bottom-up. 109 00:08:28,389 --> 00:08:32,880 And that is a very powerful idea. But this tale of the power of Facebook 110 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,679 as an enabler or catalyst for freedom of speech, 111 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,300 I think it’s really a tale, it’s a very simplified story. Because 112 00:08:41,300 --> 00:08:45,269 the inconvenient truth is that today, if you 113 00:08:45,269 --> 00:08:51,329 want to influence public debates, you have new gatekeepers. 114 00:08:51,329 --> 00:08:56,959 And Facebook is one of the most important gatekeepers of our time. 115 00:08:56,959 --> 00:09:01,040 Take e.g. secret algorithms, which filter information 116 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:06,530 that is revealed to us, not on the basis which information we want to see, 117 00:09:06,530 --> 00:09:12,440 but on assumed click-and-interaction rates. Based on economic incentives, 118 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,029 because they want to make money out of this interaction. 119 00:09:16,029 --> 00:09:19,690 Facebook thereby creates virtual filter bubbles around us. 120 00:09:19,690 --> 00:09:24,470 It’s not only that we can filter information through our social ties, 121 00:09:24,470 --> 00:09:28,560 but Facebook sits in the middle, as bottleneck for information 122 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:32,730 and control. Whether or not this is really provided to us. 123 00:09:32,730 --> 00:09:38,000 And, most importantly, Facebook decides which content is allowed 124 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:43,960 on its network and which content is banned. Take e.g. the case of nudity; 125 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,620 or the example of violence. 126 00:09:47,620 --> 00:09:52,050 Facebook is much, much more liberal to depict violence on its network 127 00:09:52,050 --> 00:09:56,610 than nudity. E.g. when you have a mother feeding a child, 128 00:09:56,610 --> 00:10:00,079 Facebook is more likely [for you] to be banned than someone 129 00:10:00,079 --> 00:10:05,540 beating someone else up. And if you ask Kurdish activists 130 00:10:05,540 --> 00:10:09,339 on the topic of what they think about freedom of speech on Facebook 131 00:10:09,339 --> 00:10:14,540 they will tell you a pretty different tale than we see on the media 132 00:10:14,540 --> 00:10:18,270 when they talk about the Facebook revolution. 133 00:10:18,270 --> 00:10:23,310 Because during the last years there were several cases where president Erdoğan, 134 00:10:23,310 --> 00:10:28,500 the Turkish Prime Minister, addressed Facebook, 135 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:32,870 because he wanted to have some profiles of activists or parties banned. 136 00:10:32,870 --> 00:10:38,600 And Facebook complied. 137 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:43,480 And talking about social network is not only about freedom of speech. 138 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:48,420 One of the most important topics, I think, is also the issue of privacy. 139 00:10:48,420 --> 00:10:52,480 And for me, the decisive privacy struggles are not whether or not 140 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,660 someone sees our selfies on Facebook. Because I guess most people want 141 00:10:56,660 --> 00:11:02,210 that other people see their selfies on Facebook. For me the decisive struggles 142 00:11:02,210 --> 00:11:07,720 are rather about our browser history that Facebook collects through Like buttons. 143 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,920 It’s about connection information. It’s about our Search queries and 144 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:16,909 the right to register under a fake name. Because what I did back then, 145 00:11:16,909 --> 00:11:21,270 when I organized demonstration in Hamburg, that was clearly illegal. 146 00:11:21,270 --> 00:11:25,439 You are not allowed to register under a fake name. And what would have happened 147 00:11:25,439 --> 00:11:29,209 if Facebook decided one day, or 2 days before the demonstration was launched, 148 00:11:29,209 --> 00:11:34,370 or maybe before that: “let’s delete this account, let’s delete this event”. 149 00:11:34,370 --> 00:11:37,370 We would have a problem. 150 00:11:37,370 --> 00:11:41,720 And based on the information on which profiles we click 151 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:46,000 our provider knows with whom we are in love and whether or not we moved on 152 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:51,520 after a break-up. That are pretty important information about us; 153 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:57,400 and we should never forget that the information that is stored 154 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:02,649 in order to sell us cars, and diamonds and fancy stuff 155 00:12:02,649 --> 00:12:06,599 can also be used in order to target activists. And in the wrong hands 156 00:12:06,599 --> 00:12:12,600 this data on activists is pretty dangerous. 157 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:17,839 So as we see there is a clear conflict between shareholder value 158 00:12:17,839 --> 00:12:22,960 and public interest. And I do not have a problem with social network. 159 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:28,649 As I told you, I love the idea. But I do have a problem when we put corporations 160 00:12:28,649 --> 00:12:38,750 in a position to exploit this very sensitive part of our lives. 161 00:12:38,750 --> 00:12:43,610 But fortunately there is an alternative. 162 00:12:43,610 --> 00:12:48,080 In 2010 four young students from the US 163 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,279 launched a crowdfunding project on kickstarter. And they asked 164 00:12:52,279 --> 00:12:58,160 for 10,000 US$ in order to change their internships and summer jobs 165 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:04,220 for the opportunity to work full time on a decentralized open source 166 00:13:04,220 --> 00:13:10,900 alternative social network. And the reaction was really stunning. 167 00:13:10,900 --> 00:13:14,740 Because they asked for 10,000 $ and what they got in the end, 168 00:13:14,740 --> 00:13:19,640 after 39 days, was 20 times more than they asked for. 169 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:25,430 It was 200,000 $. And what was the goal of Diaspora? 170 00:13:25,430 --> 00:13:30,399 The founders wanted to give the users first of all a better bargaining position 171 00:13:30,399 --> 00:13:34,960 against the dominant social network provider. 172 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,370 They wanted to give users more control over their data 173 00:13:39,370 --> 00:13:43,769 and they wanted to implement a structure for social networks 174 00:13:43,769 --> 00:13:47,120 that provides a better control against censorship 175 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:53,860 and control of governments. 176 00:13:53,860 --> 00:14:00,980 So what does it mean, ‘a decentralized social network’? 177 00:14:00,980 --> 00:14:05,889 To talk about the issue of centralization or decentralization is important because 178 00:14:05,889 --> 00:14:11,850 a lot of the power structure between users and the platform owners can be foreseen 179 00:14:11,850 --> 00:14:17,469 somehow through the technical infrastructure that is implemented. And 180 00:14:17,469 --> 00:14:22,510 you can say that there are 3 basic kinds of different network structures, 181 00:14:22,510 --> 00:14:28,180 which be ‘centralized’, ‘decentralized’ and ‘distributed’. 182 00:14:28,180 --> 00:14:32,139 In the centralized design which is represented e.g. by Facebook 183 00:14:32,139 --> 00:14:37,470 there is one network platform owner in the middle like a spider in the web 184 00:14:37,470 --> 00:14:41,700 collecting all the data. He’s the bottleneck. You can’t go besides 185 00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:45,970 this bottleneck in order to communicate with other members of the platform. 186 00:14:45,970 --> 00:14:50,610 In contrast to that a fully distributed system would be like… 187 00:14:50,610 --> 00:14:54,940 or is a peer-to-peer system where every user is at the same time 188 00:14:54,940 --> 00:15:01,719 a node of the network. So, again, it’s a network of equals. 189 00:15:01,719 --> 00:15:06,590 But unfortunately it’s a bit tricky to provide a distributed social network 190 00:15:06,590 --> 00:15:12,130 on large scale because as you can imagine you would need encryption, 191 00:15:12,130 --> 00:15:16,089 on a large scale because otherwise every other member of the network would have 192 00:15:16,089 --> 00:15:20,290 the potential to access your private data. And there are some projects 193 00:15:20,290 --> 00:15:25,960 researching on that. But in 2010 when Diaspora was founded 194 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:31,350 the idea was to start with a decentralized structure. 195 00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:36,050 And the most important feature of such a decentralized structure 196 00:15:36,050 --> 00:15:40,720 is that you don’t have one server where every… 197 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,440 like every interaction is going through but you have different servers. 198 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,620 And because it’s open source everyone is free to set up their own server; 199 00:15:48,620 --> 00:15:53,430 or you as a user can maybe chose “I trust person X, 200 00:15:53,430 --> 00:15:58,009 and she’s running a Diaspora pod, and I join”; or I don’t trust anyone 201 00:15:58,009 --> 00:16:02,790 and I set up my own pod. 202 00:16:02,790 --> 00:16:07,070 And talking about freedom of speech or government pressure: 203 00:16:07,070 --> 00:16:11,470 One interesting feature is that it’s much, much more difficult 204 00:16:11,470 --> 00:16:16,570 to censor or to control data flows from government level 205 00:16:16,570 --> 00:16:21,819 in a decentralized or distributed system because if there is a server 206 00:16:21,819 --> 00:16:32,149 under pressure you just can move to another server. 207 00:16:32,149 --> 00:16:36,519 This slide shows what’s the state of Diaspora 208 00:16:36,519 --> 00:16:42,560 right now. We have now… well we live in the year 2015. Some years passed 209 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,470 since this idea was announced. And 210 00:16:47,470 --> 00:16:53,190 here you see the Top 10 active Diaspora servers. Or they’re also called pods. 211 00:16:53,190 --> 00:16:56,449 And first of all we see that in the last years 212 00:16:56,449 --> 00:17:03,139 there was a development or a trend that more and more servers 213 00:17:03,139 --> 00:17:07,860 are located in Germany. The biggest server once… or the most active server 214 00:17:07,860 --> 00:17:13,420 once was joindiaspora.com which was the first server 215 00:17:13,420 --> 00:17:16,510 that called for like registration for anyone. 216 00:17:16,510 --> 00:17:21,020 And today most servers are in Germany. 217 00:17:21,020 --> 00:17:24,510 And looking at the number of registered users 218 00:17:24,510 --> 00:17:28,480 you see that the Top 10 Diaspora pods together 219 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:33,150 have roundabout half a Million users. 220 00:17:33,150 --> 00:17:37,460 So anyone who’s telling you “Diaspora is dead!”, you can tell: 221 00:17:37,460 --> 00:17:42,390 “Diaspora is not dead!”. It’s pretty alive. And 222 00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:46,980 there are roundabout between 20.000 and 30.000 people 223 00:17:46,980 --> 00:17:52,090 who log in to the Diaspora network, or connected networks 224 00:17:52,090 --> 00:17:58,040 at least once per month. And this number is rather increasing… 225 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:02,790 …over the last years. So we see that Diaspora has a relatively small 226 00:18:02,790 --> 00:18:08,260 but stable user base. But in the end when we look at the… 227 00:18:08,260 --> 00:18:12,640 what was announced we see that it’s clearly failed its goal 228 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:18,020 to overcome Facebook or to overthrow Facebook as the de facto social network 229 00:18:18,020 --> 00:18:23,060 of the world. So we need to ask ourselves: 230 00:18:23,060 --> 00:18:28,630 “Why didn’t this happen?” 231 00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:33,230 And in IT it’s said that ‘Code is Law’. And in economics it’s said 232 00:18:33,230 --> 00:18:38,880 that the market structures are telling you a lot 233 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:46,130 about which outcome is most likely to come out of a situation on the market. 234 00:18:46,130 --> 00:18:49,340 That means that market structure are a powerful tool that can provide 235 00:18:49,340 --> 00:18:54,260 some explanations why we live in such a decade of gated communities 236 00:18:54,260 --> 00:18:59,170 and why decentralized alternatives struggle so hard to overcome Facebook 237 00:18:59,170 --> 00:19:06,400 and others. And talking about 238 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,690 market structures or features of certain markets: 239 00:19:10,690 --> 00:19:15,820 the most important feature on the market for social networks 240 00:19:15,820 --> 00:19:20,990 is of course the ‘network effect’. So: what’s the network effect? 241 00:19:20,990 --> 00:19:25,870 Imagine you get a very tempting offer for a mobile contract. 242 00:19:25,870 --> 00:19:30,090 And it offers really everything you were craving for: different features, 243 00:19:30,090 --> 00:19:36,520 a new mobile for free, and very very low, competitive prize. 244 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:41,180 But there’s just one twist with this offer: the operator tells you: 245 00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:46,400 “Well, you can accept this offer, but the problem is you can only communicate 246 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,390 with other members of our network. Everyone else will be banned 247 00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:54,850 from calling you or being called.” 248 00:19:54,850 --> 00:19:59,360 Would you accept such an offer? Would you join a gated community? 249 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:06,020 I don’t think so. I wouldn’t. And this example 250 00:20:06,020 --> 00:20:11,070 shows really what the network effect is all about. 251 00:20:11,070 --> 00:20:15,600 The ‘global network effect’ means simply that 252 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,980 the more users join a network the more connections are available 253 00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:24,180 and therefor the more attractive it becomes for other people to join. 254 00:20:24,180 --> 00:20:27,810 The more people join – more people join etc. 255 00:20:27,810 --> 00:20:33,320 And therefor it’s a structure that really empowers the growth of monopolies 256 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:38,090 or big platforms. And 257 00:20:38,090 --> 00:20:42,380 through this Bandwagon effect with positive feedback loops 258 00:20:42,380 --> 00:20:47,320 you can clearly see that monopolies are enforced. 259 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,340 But talking about social networks: the global effect is really not so important, 260 00:20:51,340 --> 00:20:57,430 I think. Because when I think about social networks or communication platforms 261 00:20:57,430 --> 00:21:01,960 I really don’t care about the market share in China, or in Brazil, 262 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:07,940 or in the US. I care about the market share among my friends, 263 00:21:07,940 --> 00:21:15,950 I care about on which platform I can reach my family, or my business contacts. 264 00:21:15,950 --> 00:21:22,550 And that’s true for a lot of people. I mean, most people communicate intensely 265 00:21:22,550 --> 00:21:27,820 always with a very small subset of people. And that is how the ‘local network effect’ 266 00:21:27,820 --> 00:21:33,040 works. If everyone here in this room… or if everyone I’m friends with 267 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,240 – rather to say – would switch to an alternative platform I would follow. 268 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,810 Always. Because I want to reach these people. 269 00:21:41,810 --> 00:21:47,040 And interestingly the success of Facebook was not so much 270 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,400 about the global network effect. This effect came later. 271 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,660 First of all it was about the local network effect. 272 00:21:56,660 --> 00:22:00,400 Because when Facebook emerged they had a certain strategy for growth. 273 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,210 And first of all Facebook was in the first month or year 274 00:22:05,210 --> 00:22:08,560 only available for Harvard students. 275 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,790 You even needed a valid Harvard University address in order to register. 276 00:22:13,790 --> 00:22:18,140 Everyone else was banned from the network. 277 00:22:18,140 --> 00:22:22,040 So imagine the situation: you are new at the university and most likely 278 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,780 you moved to Harvard. You don’t know anyone there. 279 00:22:25,780 --> 00:22:29,970 But you make new friends and all these new friends are on this platform. 280 00:22:29,970 --> 00:22:33,840 So you know you will meet people you want to meet there. 281 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:39,220 So you join. And only after having reached 282 00:22:39,220 --> 00:22:43,370 a critical mass in Harvard Facebook expanded 283 00:22:43,370 --> 00:22:48,160 to other Ivy League colleges. These are very prestigious colleges 284 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,980 in the US and you can be really lucky if you are accepted at one of these colleges. 285 00:22:53,980 --> 00:22:57,960 And again, you needed a valid university address in order to register. 286 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,810 And everyone else was banned. 287 00:23:02,810 --> 00:23:07,430 And only after they reached a critical mass there they expanded. 288 00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:11,630 And allowed any university student to log in. 289 00:23:11,630 --> 00:23:16,780 Then they expanded again. And allowed any school… 290 00:23:16,780 --> 00:23:22,620 or any member of a school to join. Then they chose several institutions, 291 00:23:22,620 --> 00:23:26,590 which were also allowed to join. And only after they reached a critical mass 292 00:23:26,590 --> 00:23:36,150 in every of these communities they opened for the general public. 293 00:23:36,150 --> 00:23:41,630 And that is how social networks – or also different kinds of networks 294 00:23:41,630 --> 00:23:45,950 which are based on communication – how they grow. 295 00:23:45,950 --> 00:23:49,580 And this strategy is successful because people who joined early 296 00:23:49,580 --> 00:23:53,750 on Facebook knew that they would find meaningful connections there, 297 00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:58,460 not anyone. As I told you: you don’t care about the market share in China. 298 00:23:58,460 --> 00:24:02,450 You care about the market share maybe on the CCC congress, or maybe 299 00:24:02,450 --> 00:24:06,980 at your local hackerspace, or maybe at your school or university, or at work, 300 00:24:06,980 --> 00:24:13,790 or at your sucker clob… soccer club. laughs 301 00:24:13,790 --> 00:24:19,480 laughter, relenting applause 302 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,220 Well, and... laughs again 303 00:24:23,220 --> 00:24:26,710 Facebook was not the only network that understood how important 304 00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:31,380 these local network effects are in order to grow. 305 00:24:31,380 --> 00:24:36,530 You often find invite-only structures, searchable friends-of-friends lists, 306 00:24:36,530 --> 00:24:40,590 or invite applications, or… These fancy upload functions 307 00:24:40,590 --> 00:24:45,540 for your address book… yeah, it’s all about the local network effect, 308 00:24:45,540 --> 00:24:50,550 it’s all about local growth. 309 00:24:50,550 --> 00:24:54,810 But unfortunately it’s not only the global and the local network effect 310 00:24:54,810 --> 00:24:59,210 that benefits Facebook. It’s also the indirect network effect, 311 00:24:59,210 --> 00:25:03,540 or also called ‘cross sided network effect’. 312 00:25:03,540 --> 00:25:07,260 And one example, what does it mean, ‘indirect network effect’, 313 00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:13,230 one network effect again? Facebook opens its platform 314 00:25:13,230 --> 00:25:17,270 for app developers. Any app developer is free to join Facebook 315 00:25:17,270 --> 00:25:20,530 – of course you have some restrictions – but you don’t need to pay money 316 00:25:20,530 --> 00:25:26,310 in order to place your app on Facebook. And why does Facebook act in such a way? 317 00:25:26,310 --> 00:25:30,970 Because the more apps you have, the more interaction you have 318 00:25:30,970 --> 00:25:35,110 the more people are likely to join. And the more people join 319 00:25:35,110 --> 00:25:39,670 the more apps you have. Then more people will join. So you have 320 00:25:39,670 --> 00:25:44,600 a likelihood that more apps can contribute to growth. 321 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,230 And maybe you don’t care about apps. 322 00:25:48,230 --> 00:25:51,670 I know pretty much people from my time at university 323 00:25:51,670 --> 00:25:59,660 that were so addicted to Farmville. 324 00:25:59,660 --> 00:26:03,440 Or CandyCrush, or whatever. But this Farmville thing really 325 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,910 ruled at university when you looked at the laptops. 326 00:26:07,910 --> 00:26:11,360 Another interesting cross sided network effect is 327 00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:15,340 e.g. an example where you tried… 328 00:26:15,340 --> 00:26:18,360 when you succeed to attract more advertisers, 329 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:21,900 and these more advertisers pay you more money, you use this money 330 00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:26,860 in order to provide better services to your users and 331 00:26:26,860 --> 00:26:33,240 maybe more users join because of this. This attracts more advertisers etc. 332 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:38,060 So this is another effect that 333 00:26:38,060 --> 00:26:42,280 leads to an increase in growth – for the largest platform! 334 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,100 Or for large platforms. And on top of that you still of course have 335 00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:50,500 economies of scale, like in many different other markets. 336 00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:53,990 Economies of scale basically means the marginal costs 337 00:26:53,990 --> 00:27:00,320 for every additional user just decreases. 338 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,650 And of course this doesn’t make competition any easier. 339 00:27:04,650 --> 00:27:08,800 And at this point it is to understand – talking about Facebook 340 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,900 as a gated community – how it came about that 341 00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:17,930 it is in fact today a gated community. Because 342 00:27:17,930 --> 00:27:22,350 it wouldn’t if Facebook would provide e.g. open standards 343 00:27:22,350 --> 00:27:28,020 and the ability to interconnect between different networks. 344 00:27:28,020 --> 00:27:32,870 Imagine a situation where you just could join Diaspora 345 00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:38,040 and you still could contact all your contacts from Facebook. 346 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,800 How much more people would then switch from Facebook to Diaspora? 347 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:50,440 I think this number would be pretty high. And… 348 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:56,400 maybe some of you may think this is like a total[ly] naive dream 349 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:02,030 of open standards in social networks. But I guess everyone of you 350 00:28:02,030 --> 00:28:06,700 has an email address. And do you care 351 00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:10,730 which provider your communication partner chooses? 352 00:28:10,730 --> 00:28:14,130 I mean you don’t need to care because it’s an open protocol. 353 00:28:14,130 --> 00:28:17,780 As long as this person uses the email technology 354 00:28:17,780 --> 00:28:20,700 you can communicate with [it]. 355 00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:27,010 And the issues of whether or not a communication platform 356 00:28:27,010 --> 00:28:30,770 shuts down and uses proprietary standards, 357 00:28:30,770 --> 00:28:36,860 and maybe implements incompatibility on purpose 358 00:28:36,860 --> 00:28:41,290 is because that standards have the power 359 00:28:41,290 --> 00:28:45,320 to change the reference point for the network effect. 360 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,910 As I told you with the example of email: 361 00:28:49,910 --> 00:28:55,080 the relevant number concerning the local and the global network effect 362 00:28:55,080 --> 00:29:00,930 with email is not the number who’s on Gmail or the number of people who use GMX 363 00:29:00,930 --> 00:29:05,670 or T-Online, whatever there is. But the relevant number is really 364 00:29:05,670 --> 00:29:10,330 who uses this technology. 365 00:29:10,330 --> 00:29:14,230 And that is why there are very high incentives: 366 00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:17,830 once you became a big player because of the global network effect, 367 00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:21,090 the local network effect, the indirect network effect, 368 00:29:21,090 --> 00:29:27,490 just to close your gates and shut your competitors out. 369 00:29:27,490 --> 00:29:32,490 And it won’t get better. In fact it will get worse. 370 00:29:32,490 --> 00:29:37,110 E.g. we see a lot of companies that in the beginning provide pretty 371 00:29:37,110 --> 00:29:42,280 open standards, or invite application writers to write mobile applications, 372 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,770 such as Twitter, but at some point they always close down. 373 00:29:46,770 --> 00:29:50,920 Once Facebook chat was compatible with Jabber. 374 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:56,100 And the Google chat was compatible with Jabber, with XMPP, too. 375 00:29:56,100 --> 00:30:00,440 But at some point they just decided to close down. 376 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,270 And if you compete with a gated community 377 00:30:04,270 --> 00:30:09,330 this means also something else. It means that a new feature 378 00:30:09,330 --> 00:30:14,320 won’t help you that much. When you try to get users 379 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:20,550 to switch. Because maybe e.g. there will… 380 00:30:20,550 --> 00:30:23,770 imagine a new social network with a fancy feature and everyone says: 381 00:30:23,770 --> 00:30:27,260 “Oh, I like this feature but at the same point at the same time 382 00:30:27,260 --> 00:30:30,870 a lot of people will say: “Yeah, I like this feature but still it’s more important 383 00:30:30,870 --> 00:30:35,050 to communicate with all of my friends.” This gives you time. 384 00:30:35,050 --> 00:30:39,530 Of course people are more likely to switch but you have time to adapt 385 00:30:39,530 --> 00:30:44,980 as a monopolist, as a big platform in order to copy these features. 386 00:30:44,980 --> 00:30:51,660 Or maybe to buy the whole company like Facebook does frequently. 387 00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:55,790 And it becomes more likely – with the possibility just to close up 388 00:30:55,790 --> 00:30:59,370 your community and make a gated community out of it – 389 00:30:59,370 --> 00:31:03,070 that the first mover on the market will take it all. The first company, 390 00:31:03,070 --> 00:31:07,330 or the first platform that manages to get a critical mass 391 00:31:07,330 --> 00:31:12,600 and shuts down is most likely to become the de facto [standard] platform provider 392 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,830 for all of the users. 393 00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:22,680 But unfortunately these are not all the economic effects 394 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,230 that make it less likely that people leave Facebook. 395 00:31:26,230 --> 00:31:31,440 There are still the ‘switching cause’ and the ‘lock-in’ effect. 396 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,160 Imagine you want to leave from Facebook, you have 397 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:40,070 all your photos there, you have all your contacts there, you have interaction data. 398 00:31:40,070 --> 00:31:43,380 And maybe you can move some of your photos; but it’s incredibly annoying 399 00:31:43,380 --> 00:31:47,510 when you don’t have data portability in place. And there are some data 400 00:31:47,510 --> 00:31:51,140 which are really lost. You can’t take them with you. 401 00:31:51,140 --> 00:31:55,530 And that is why switching is so hard. And the longer you are member 402 00:31:55,530 --> 00:31:59,470 of such are platform which doesn’t allow you just to take your stuff 403 00:31:59,470 --> 00:32:03,480 when you move out the more you become locked in. 404 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,720 And the problem about the situation is: once the operator knows 405 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,470 that you won’t be very likely someone who just switches 406 00:32:12,470 --> 00:32:17,860 he will care less. He will care less when you complain about 407 00:32:17,860 --> 00:32:21,490 the new ‘Terms of Services’, he will care less when you complain about 408 00:32:21,490 --> 00:32:25,980 privacy issues, or the advertising policy or whatever. He will just 409 00:32:25,980 --> 00:32:32,590 don’t give a shit. 410 00:32:32,590 --> 00:32:35,780 And the problem is: once you have a gated community, of course 411 00:32:35,780 --> 00:32:40,770 [you] want to monetize it. And the less likely users can make 412 00:32:40,770 --> 00:32:45,720 a credible threat to leave in case they don’t like the business model 413 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:53,170 or the way how their data or they themselves are treated 414 00:32:53,170 --> 00:32:57,610 the more you can just take out of this network. Because people will start 415 00:32:57,610 --> 00:33:02,140 to tolerate things they would never tolerate under other conditions. 416 00:33:02,140 --> 00:33:06,590 In the case of email I would just switch my email provider. In the case of Facebook 417 00:33:06,590 --> 00:33:11,240 most people won’t switch the social network. 418 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,190 In the business model of Facebook we are not the consumers. That’s very important 419 00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:19,710 to keep in mind. We are the product being sold. And advertisers pay 420 00:33:19,710 --> 00:33:23,450 for the really really scarce resource on the internet: 421 00:33:23,450 --> 00:33:28,630 It’s access to the users! It’s our attention. 422 00:33:28,630 --> 00:33:33,910 And this here is some data on how much worth… 423 00:33:33,910 --> 00:33:38,150 or how much revenue is generated per user. 424 00:33:38,150 --> 00:33:42,330 And you see that when you’re from the US or Canada 425 00:33:42,330 --> 00:33:49,840 your data per year is worth ca. 8 Dollars. 426 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,490 So you pay such an amount of money for getting a service 427 00:33:54,490 --> 00:34:01,360 that costs the provider approx. some pennies, because of economies of scale. 428 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:11,118 So that’s why gated communities are everywhere. It’s a gold mine. 429 00:34:11,118 --> 00:34:18,130 And the problem is, talking about platforms such as Facebook… 430 00:34:18,130 --> 00:34:22,320 We are not talking anymore about just social networks. 431 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,409 Because it’s a platform. 432 00:34:26,409 --> 00:34:32,139 And platforms that have the network effects and ‘lock-in’ on their side 433 00:34:32,139 --> 00:34:36,270 try often to transfer their dominant market position 434 00:34:36,270 --> 00:34:42,560 from one market to another market. And one common strategy is bundling. 435 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:48,389 Bundling appears when you only can get a certain service 436 00:34:48,389 --> 00:34:52,260 as a bundle of services, and you can’t just get a single service 437 00:34:52,260 --> 00:34:56,820 without the whole bundle. Some examples concerning Facebook: 438 00:34:56,820 --> 00:35:00,490 Why do you need Jabber when you have a Facebook chat that can’t even 439 00:35:00,490 --> 00:35:05,760 communicate with Jabber. Or do you really need Skype when you have Google Hangouts 440 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,900 on your Google+ account? Or e.g. would you still 441 00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:15,260 upload videos on Youtube or Vimeo when you want to spread them 442 00:35:15,260 --> 00:35:19,920 via Facebook, and you know that Facebook systematically downgrades every video 443 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:25,760 that isn’t uploaded on their servers? 444 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,490 And this strategy has devastating results. 445 00:35:29,490 --> 00:35:33,740 It’s causing that the gates, or the borders 446 00:35:33,740 --> 00:35:38,060 of a gated community are constantly expanding. That means larger 447 00:35:38,060 --> 00:35:44,220 and larger parts of the internet are becoming parts of some gated community. 448 00:35:44,220 --> 00:35:48,110 And Facebook and others even have managed to kill net neutrality 449 00:35:48,110 --> 00:35:51,400 in various countries in order to expand their borders 450 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,520 to the level of internet access. 451 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,700 The fight about net neutrality is nothing else; the fight about net neutrality 452 00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:03,870 is about gated communities that try to expand their borders 453 00:36:03,870 --> 00:36:10,350 to a level where they don’t belong. And they had no powers 454 00:36:10,350 --> 00:36:14,540 until now. And it is sad to see 455 00:36:14,540 --> 00:36:18,770 but for many people, like for many people I met on university, 456 00:36:18,770 --> 00:36:23,960 back then when I studied here, Facebook is the Internet! 457 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,910 Because Facebook provides everything they basically need. 458 00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:38,931 Everything but freedom, and privacy, and choice. 459 00:36:38,931 --> 00:36:43,460 I admit this was a pretty depressing overview 460 00:36:43,460 --> 00:36:49,420 over market structures. So let’s see what do we do 461 00:36:49,420 --> 00:36:53,870 with this knowledge and what has it to do with Diaspora, 462 00:36:53,870 --> 00:37:00,690 the alternative social network? First of all 463 00:37:00,690 --> 00:37:06,400 let me say one thing: I know it is a convenient dream 464 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,860 that one day the next big social network, or 465 00:37:09,860 --> 00:37:14,470 the next big free software project will come and rescue us all from 466 00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:17,760 the dominance of platform owners. 467 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:22,070 But competing with such giant platforms like Google, 468 00:37:22,070 --> 00:37:26,450 Facebook or Apple, or Microsoft: 469 00:37:26,450 --> 00:37:30,730 it’s not very likely that this will happen overnight. 470 00:37:30,730 --> 00:37:35,340 And I love heroes… I love super heroes, I love comics, but 471 00:37:35,340 --> 00:37:39,730 unfortunately this is not realistic in such a situation. 472 00:37:39,730 --> 00:37:45,020 We need to work hard in order to accomplish that. 473 00:37:45,020 --> 00:37:49,330 And a cool feature will not change this. Because the history showed that 474 00:37:49,330 --> 00:37:53,780 every time Diaspora tried to implement a new feature 475 00:37:53,780 --> 00:37:57,220 in order to compete with Facebook we had 476 00:37:57,220 --> 00:38:02,830 the situation that other social networks instantly 477 00:38:02,830 --> 00:38:06,720 copied this feature. E.g. how many of you… 478 00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:12,330 I don’t know how many of you are on Facebook… but… 479 00:38:12,330 --> 00:38:16,750 but you know today you can differentiate on Facebook between friends, 480 00:38:16,750 --> 00:38:20,440 close friends, business contacts etc. 481 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,500 This is a relatively new feature. And first, interestingly, 482 00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:29,760 Diaspora implemented such a differentiation 483 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:36,020 of contact levels, and called it ‘aspects’. 484 00:38:36,020 --> 00:38:39,750 And then Google+ came and announced: 485 00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:43,590 “Yeah, we have something better, we have ‘circles’!” 486 00:38:43,590 --> 00:38:49,420 And it was basically the same principle. And then Facebook of course copied it. 487 00:38:49,420 --> 00:38:52,680 So we need to face this inconvenient truth: Facebook and others will 488 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,780 always have a bigger staff, more money, and a larger user base. 489 00:38:56,780 --> 00:39:00,340 And they will use it against us. So if you’re dreaming that 490 00:39:00,340 --> 00:39:04,440 maybe there will come a new feature, or a new tool; 491 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,550 and all the teens are like: “Hell yeah, I want to use this! 492 00:39:07,550 --> 00:39:12,260 Fuck Facebook, my parents are on Facebook!” laughter 493 00:39:12,260 --> 00:39:16,860 This happened before. Do you know Instagram? Do you know Whatsapp? 494 00:39:16,860 --> 00:39:22,680 Do you know who bought it? Facebook! 495 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,270 So we need to really think, in order to win this fight. 496 00:39:27,270 --> 00:39:31,120 Or at least to keep struggling. What are killer features? 497 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:37,270 What are the killer features of open source decentralized social networks? 498 00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:41,430 I just told you: open source, decentralized, non-corporate, 499 00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:45,630 privacy-aware,… Facebook will not copy that! 500 00:39:45,630 --> 00:39:49,760 laughter and applause 501 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:58,760 applause 502 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,980 So, you know, I got really curious – because I knew that my colleagues 503 00:40:03,980 --> 00:40:09,750 from university are not on Diaspora – so I really got curious: 504 00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:14,220 who is on Diaspora? Who are these 20..30.000 users 505 00:40:14,220 --> 00:40:18,070 who log in per month? And this is an analysis 506 00:40:18,070 --> 00:40:22,320 of the most used hashtags on Geraspora. Geraspora is right now 507 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,590 the most active Diaspora pod. 508 00:40:26,590 --> 00:40:30,750 What kind of community do you think is on Diaspora? 509 00:40:30,750 --> 00:40:35,610 Top hashtags such as: Linux, Gnu, Hackernews, ja? 510 00:40:35,610 --> 00:40:39,060 From my point of view this is very awesome, and I think: “Yeah, this is 511 00:40:39,060 --> 00:40:42,750 a community I would like to join!”. 512 00:40:42,750 --> 00:40:47,040 So in fact, when we remember what is important 513 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,420 for social networks in order to grow? It’s the local network effect. 514 00:40:51,420 --> 00:40:57,610 And in fact we already managed to attract a very, very specific group. 515 00:40:57,610 --> 00:41:01,010 And this group is not very likely to switch. Because: 516 00:41:01,010 --> 00:41:04,800 do you think your local hackerspace would maybe switch from Diaspora to Facebook, 517 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:10,920 because Facebook is so awesome? I don’t think so. 518 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,840 And there will be also some new features – 519 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,660 I can proudly announce because some of the developers 520 00:41:19,660 --> 00:41:23,800 just told me I should do – laughs 521 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,250 which can even make the network more attractive 522 00:41:27,250 --> 00:41:32,460 for groups like hackerspaces or whatever. singular dull laughter from audience 523 00:41:32,460 --> 00:41:36,070 There will be... laughs in reaction there will be 524 00:41:36,070 --> 00:41:40,240 chat extensions soon which is compatible with XMPP, 525 00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:45,030 or based on XMPP so that you can add all your Jabber contacts in there. 526 00:41:45,030 --> 00:41:49,890 And for me it’s pretty convenient because I use Jabber over time-at-work. 527 00:41:49,890 --> 00:41:54,320 So guess what will be open all the time at work! 528 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,460 Diaspora… ooh, here is sitting someone from my work! 529 00:41:58,460 --> 00:42:00,950 laughter 530 00:42:00,950 --> 00:42:03,590 Because it’s so super efficient. And… laughter 531 00:42:03,590 --> 00:42:06,320 other features are planned as well! 532 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:12,760 applause 533 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,170 There are other features planned as well. There shall be 534 00:42:16,170 --> 00:42:19,960 a group feature soon which is not very easy to implement 535 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,970 because in a decentralized network it’s a bit tricky. 536 00:42:22,970 --> 00:42:25,870 But they’re planning to do it. And they’re also thinking about 537 00:42:25,870 --> 00:42:29,770 adding ‘events’ which is pretty awesome e.g. when you want 538 00:42:29,770 --> 00:42:33,000 to coordinate in your local hackerspace, in your group, and 539 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,490 you have on your chat an idea for an event – bang! – you can set it up 540 00:42:37,490 --> 00:42:42,970 on Diaspora. So is this a gated community for hackers? 541 00:42:42,970 --> 00:42:47,620 I don’t think so because it’s open, it uses open protocols, 542 00:42:47,620 --> 00:42:51,020 and I am sure, or I know there are a lot of other groups 543 00:42:51,020 --> 00:42:55,340 we can address with such a network in order to join. 544 00:42:55,340 --> 00:42:58,640 Because this is how social networks expand. 545 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,530 Group by group – by group. So what other groups could like these features? 546 00:43:03,530 --> 00:43:08,230 What groups could e.g. dislike corporate power? 547 00:43:08,230 --> 00:43:12,270 What kind of activists could dislike NSA backdoors? 548 00:43:12,270 --> 00:43:15,800 Or what kind of public institution or even companies 549 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,780 could feel a bit uncomfortable to put all their data 550 00:43:20,780 --> 00:43:24,120 on an US server? And there are some companies or institutions 551 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:28,100 who really are craving for a social solution on servers 552 00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:32,680 they can host by themselves. So I think it’s a winning strategy 553 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:38,340 to address this group, also to ask: “What kind of features do you want?” 554 00:43:38,340 --> 00:43:41,740 and this is what the Diaspora community did. They asked their users: 555 00:43:41,740 --> 00:43:44,430 “What do you want?” and they said: “Jabber, we want Jabber!”. 556 00:43:44,430 --> 00:43:48,900 So they implemented Jabber. And this is how we really can grow. 557 00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:52,660 Step by step through local network effect. And 558 00:43:52,660 --> 00:43:56,750 there have been interesting cooperations with the Diaspora networks, 559 00:43:56,750 --> 00:44:01,430 or other networks that have a decentralized nature already, 560 00:44:01,430 --> 00:44:06,400 e.g. the most active German Diaspora pod 561 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:11,990 Geraspora is right now funded in some part by a German newspaper, 562 00:44:11,990 --> 00:44:18,140 the Donaukurier. And the Donaukurier interestingly… sudden laughter 563 00:44:18,140 --> 00:44:21,310 the Donaukurier one day asked… they had this idea: 564 00:44:21,310 --> 00:44:25,660 “Yeah we want maybe to experiment a bit with decentralized alternatives; 565 00:44:25,660 --> 00:44:30,560 we like this idea… but they didn’t want to set up a server on their own. 566 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,650 So they decided to give regular funding. And they are still giving regular funding. 567 00:44:34,650 --> 00:44:39,320 Or there are requests of different groups or even… 568 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,160 there was a request from youth workers which were interested to use 569 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,860 such a network for communication with their clients. 570 00:44:46,860 --> 00:44:52,510 Because obviously you don’t want any data concerning youth work 571 00:44:52,510 --> 00:44:57,850 hosted on Facebook. And these requests, they are happening, 572 00:44:57,850 --> 00:45:01,240 and I think this is very promising to work on this basic 573 00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:06,410 in order to expand group by group. 574 00:45:06,410 --> 00:45:10,790 And we should not forget: there are certain windows of opportunity 575 00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:15,140 which might convince more people 576 00:45:15,140 --> 00:45:18,500 that Diaspora is really an awesome idea 577 00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:24,010 and the killer features are really worth trying it. 578 00:45:24,010 --> 00:45:28,400 There have been such windows of opportunity, e.g. 579 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:35,380 there was a time… or there was a constant time of the… 580 00:45:35,380 --> 00:45:41,150 Mr. Erdoğan who is banning various social media platforms in Turkey. 581 00:45:41,150 --> 00:45:45,110 And every time he does the Geraspora pod 582 00:45:45,110 --> 00:45:49,920 sees an increased traffic from Turkish subnets. 583 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,211 And another interesting effect is that 584 00:45:53,211 --> 00:46:00,270 every time Facebook announces changes in the Terms of Service, 585 00:46:00,270 --> 00:46:04,270 again there is a peak. And 586 00:46:04,270 --> 00:46:08,260 these windows of opportunity – unfortunately I have to say this – 587 00:46:08,260 --> 00:46:11,820 they will be more frequent in the future. 588 00:46:11,820 --> 00:46:15,730 Unfortunately it happened before and it will happen again. And once you will have 589 00:46:15,730 --> 00:46:20,270 a big leak of data from Facebook. And 590 00:46:20,270 --> 00:46:24,660 this can happen anytime; maybe more people will be convinced 591 00:46:24,660 --> 00:46:29,310 to try a decentralized alternative. 592 00:46:29,310 --> 00:46:32,740 And it is also important, as these examples showed, 593 00:46:32,740 --> 00:46:36,730 e.g. from Turkey, that we need these alternatives right now. 594 00:46:36,730 --> 00:46:41,690 There are right now people who need such an alternative, not only hackerspaces. 595 00:46:41,690 --> 00:46:46,060 And therefor I’m very, very happy that we are trying to provide 596 00:46:46,060 --> 00:46:55,210 such an alternative right now. 597 00:46:55,210 --> 00:47:01,930 But competing with a large platform, as Facebook is right now, 598 00:47:01,930 --> 00:47:07,440 we need also to see that this is a task we never can manage alone. 599 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:12,150 We can’t compete with such a network without allies at our side 600 00:47:12,150 --> 00:47:17,190 which have also super powers like we have. And 601 00:47:17,190 --> 00:47:21,060 one of the most interesting developments of the last year is that 602 00:47:21,060 --> 00:47:26,540 Diaspora is in fact not alone any more. Diaspora is part 603 00:47:26,540 --> 00:47:31,920 of the so called ‘Federation’. And the Federation consists of 604 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:38,050 different decentralized social networks such as Diaspora, friendica or Redmatrix. 605 00:47:38,050 --> 00:47:41,470 And they are interconnected, they speak the same protocol. 606 00:47:41,470 --> 00:47:45,750 So it doesn’t matter whether my friends are on friendica, on Redmatrix 607 00:47:45,750 --> 00:47:50,410 or on Diaspora. I can communicate with them. 608 00:47:50,410 --> 00:47:53,850 And therefor by pooling their users together they change 609 00:47:53,850 --> 00:47:58,300 the reference point of the network effect. And if you are considering 610 00:47:58,300 --> 00:48:02,750 to launch a new social network on your own 611 00:48:02,750 --> 00:48:07,470 you’re free to do. And if you join the Federation you already have a user base. 612 00:48:07,470 --> 00:48:14,160 And this is a very, very exciting and powerful idea. 613 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:19,580 Because the networks inside the Federation are quite different. 614 00:48:19,580 --> 00:48:25,380 Diaspora e.g. has a very clean, easy design for users. 615 00:48:25,380 --> 00:48:30,420 And some people really like that. 616 00:48:30,420 --> 00:48:34,070 The other networks have other strengths. E.g. friendica 617 00:48:34,070 --> 00:48:38,370 is really an interconnection machine. One of the guys who’s 618 00:48:38,370 --> 00:48:41,650 working on the development team, he’s really looking for any loop hole 619 00:48:41,650 --> 00:48:46,940 he can get into other networks in order to establish an interconnection 620 00:48:46,940 --> 00:48:51,320 even if the operator doesn’t want to. And that’s awesome. 621 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,920 And e.g. friendica already speaks email protocol 622 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,040 and Jabber. And Redmatrix on the other hand: 623 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:04,130 it is a fork, Redmatric and friendica 624 00:49:04,130 --> 00:49:08,930 share large parts of the same code. 625 00:49:08,930 --> 00:49:12,850 But Redmatrix has a very, very strong emphasis 626 00:49:12,850 --> 00:49:17,890 on privacy. And they’re experimenting with apps, 627 00:49:17,890 --> 00:49:21,640 and OpenID and different features 628 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,870 which the other networks don’t provide. So I think 629 00:49:25,870 --> 00:49:30,020 such a federation or such a bundling of your powers, such a looking for allies 630 00:49:30,020 --> 00:49:35,200 is a very powerful thing to do, not only for you as a network. 631 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,090 But also for your users. As a user I can vote by feet just – 632 00:49:39,090 --> 00:49:42,770 if I don’t like Diaspora then I just join friendica. But I still have 633 00:49:42,770 --> 00:49:47,260 all my contacts from my local hackerspace and that’s awesome. 634 00:49:47,260 --> 00:49:53,730 And in the long run when we look at how this works: 635 00:49:53,730 --> 00:49:59,690 this is really a small version of how the concept of social networks 636 00:49:59,690 --> 00:50:04,470 could look like if we just had open protocols. And that’s also very important, 637 00:50:04,470 --> 00:50:08,230 also for the political struggle, for open protocols to provide 638 00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:13,820 that such a thing works. 639 00:50:13,820 --> 00:50:17,910 But competing with large platforms like Facebook 640 00:50:17,910 --> 00:50:21,110 you’re not only competing with a social network, 641 00:50:21,110 --> 00:50:24,910 you’re competing with an alternative eco system. So we need really to think 642 00:50:24,910 --> 00:50:29,340 how to build an eco system on our own. And 643 00:50:29,340 --> 00:50:33,110 every time there is a new idea or a new feature 644 00:50:33,110 --> 00:50:36,780 Facebook would like to implement they just copy it, 645 00:50:36,780 --> 00:50:40,600 or they buy it. And the big strength 646 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:45,910 of the Free Software movement is that we don’t nee monetary incentives 647 00:50:45,910 --> 00:50:49,490 to work together. Because we share similar goals. 648 00:50:49,490 --> 00:50:53,960 So instead of trying to provide all the features by yourself 649 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,480 the really winning strategy is just to stay open. 650 00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:02,890 Just to talk to other projects in order to find maybe shared protocols, 651 00:51:02,890 --> 00:51:08,790 or maybe find ways how you can integrate your work into another work, 652 00:51:08,790 --> 00:51:12,940 and how you can benefit from one another. 653 00:51:12,940 --> 00:51:18,830 One example: When I bought this crappy Android phone 654 00:51:18,830 --> 00:51:24,610 there was a pre-installed Google+ app on it. 655 00:51:24,610 --> 00:51:27,830 It’s disgusting, I know, but… laughter 656 00:51:27,830 --> 00:51:32,790 applause I really… 657 00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:37,141 But I really like the idea of… maybe one day 658 00:51:37,141 --> 00:51:41,860 I will be able to buy a free operating system 659 00:51:41,860 --> 00:51:45,200 without any connections to Google. And I would really love 660 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:49,700 to have my Diaspora or friendica, whatever app, pre-installed. Or maybe an app 661 00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:54,950 to connect anything inside the Federation. 662 00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:59,350 So we need also to bundle. I mean Facebook does it, we also need to do it. 663 00:51:59,350 --> 00:52:03,590 And some first steps are made. E.g. there are some projects 664 00:52:03,590 --> 00:52:08,060 for home-made clouds where you just can buy your plug-and-play device 665 00:52:08,060 --> 00:52:13,080 and you would be able to get it soon with pre-installed version 666 00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:17,490 of a Diaspora pod. So it won’t be the hackers any more 667 00:52:17,490 --> 00:52:22,830 who have their own pod but maybe the left activists 668 00:52:22,830 --> 00:52:28,630 who’s protesting against neo-liberal politics. 669 00:52:28,630 --> 00:52:32,510 And that’s cool. And there’s another example 670 00:52:32,510 --> 00:52:37,550 that cooperation really can work. 671 00:52:37,550 --> 00:52:42,530 When you take e.g. Firefox. Firefox is the most used browser, 672 00:52:42,530 --> 00:52:47,240 at least in Germany. And Firefox has a feature: 673 00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:51,590 you can have included share buttons inside Firefox. 674 00:52:51,590 --> 00:52:54,941 And you can not only choose between Facebook and Twitter, 675 00:52:54,941 --> 00:53:00,150 and others, but you can also choose to use Diaspora. 676 00:53:00,150 --> 00:53:05,520 And this kind of cooperation is something we clearly need more 677 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:12,700 in order to overcome gated communities such as Facebook. 678 00:53:12,700 --> 00:53:16,950 So you know I’m an economist. 679 00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:20,580 So I was trained to believe in the idea of free markets 680 00:53:20,580 --> 00:53:27,380 and fair competition etc. It’s a bit like studying Dark Magic. 681 00:53:27,380 --> 00:53:34,190 But in fact really I believe that competition is at least in some areas 682 00:53:34,190 --> 00:53:38,510 something that makes sense. But at some points you need to see 683 00:53:38,510 --> 00:53:44,410 when a market just fails so hard that it doesn’t deliver 684 00:53:44,410 --> 00:53:49,200 the best possible solution. And I don’t think it’s the best possible solution 685 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:53,510 if you can’t really choose. If there’s no competition. And there is no competition 686 00:53:53,510 --> 00:53:59,510 with Facebook. So the reason why Diaspora and the others 687 00:53:59,510 --> 00:54:04,190 struggle so hard is not because their idea isn’t great, or their technology 688 00:54:04,190 --> 00:54:10,130 is not the better one, maybe. But it is the openness of the web 689 00:54:10,130 --> 00:54:16,480 that is threatened systematically when monopolies use the network effect 690 00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:21,320 in order to create more and more gated communities and expand the borders 691 00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:25,780 of these gated communities more and more. And 692 00:54:25,780 --> 00:54:29,170 the inconvenient truth is also… I mean I presented some ideas 693 00:54:29,170 --> 00:54:33,790 how we can overcome this. But it will remain hard 694 00:54:33,790 --> 00:54:39,119 as long as the structures are like they are right now. 695 00:54:39,119 --> 00:54:43,520 And I read one very interesting article 696 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:49,200 where the journalist asked the inventor of the protocol for email attachments: 697 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:54,020 “What would happen if this idea of email 698 00:54:54,020 --> 00:54:58,369 was invented today?” and he replied: 699 00:54:58,369 --> 00:55:02,200 “In this environment, if somebody invented email, whoever managed 700 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:11,780 to get critical mass first would become the world’s de facto email provider”. 701 00:55:11,780 --> 00:55:14,780 Imagine such a world! I mean it’s disgusting! 702 00:55:14,780 --> 00:55:20,440 But right now we have such a situation in the area of social network. 703 00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:25,110 Here we are! Facebook has become the world’s de facto social network provider 704 00:55:25,110 --> 00:55:31,170 in large parts of the world. Every fifth human being on this planet 705 00:55:31,170 --> 00:55:35,380 logs in on Facebook at least once per month. 706 00:55:35,380 --> 00:55:39,160 And it has this position not because it’s better than others but only 707 00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:43,900 because of market dynamics and because it was lucky. 708 00:55:43,900 --> 00:55:48,530 There is no real competition, and this is market failure. And 709 00:55:48,530 --> 00:55:51,640 when Tim Berners-Lee invented the internet protocol that freed us 710 00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:59,540 from the gated communities of Compuserve and others 711 00:55:59,540 --> 00:56:03,320 he gave it just away. He didn’t say: “Yeah, I want to… 712 00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:07,960 I have this business model, it’s super cool, it’s based on targeted advertisement 713 00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:12,990 and I will build a gated community around my internet”. 714 00:56:12,990 --> 00:56:17,860 He gave it away for free. And because people like him 715 00:56:17,860 --> 00:56:21,770 gave protocols or new ideas away for free and opened it 716 00:56:21,770 --> 00:56:27,410 we had this incredible development, where we had so much innovation, 717 00:56:27,410 --> 00:56:32,400 so much creativity through these open structures. But this is not 718 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:37,080 how market regulation should work. I mean market regulation should not 719 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:41,370 rely upon that someone who has the next cool, big idea 720 00:56:41,370 --> 00:56:48,370 that can change the world for better would just be a cool person. 721 00:56:53,170 --> 00:57:05,850 So, finally… applause 722 00:57:05,850 --> 00:57:08,480 Some people argue when we talk about social networks 723 00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,960 and the dominance of Facebook that this is only a trend. 724 00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:17,040 It would go away one day all the teens switch to another network. 725 00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,470 Facebook will be gone. 726 00:57:20,470 --> 00:57:24,779 And I remember hearing similar things about the internet as such. laughter 727 00:57:24,779 --> 00:57:30,600 “It’s only a trend. It will go away.” But I don't think so. 728 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,660 And I also don’t think so about social networks 729 00:57:34,660 --> 00:57:38,560 because social networks are a very, very powerful idea. 730 00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:42,391 They are super awesome. And maybe Facebook declines one day 731 00:57:42,391 --> 00:57:48,340 because all the teens realize that their parents are on Facebook as well. 732 00:57:48,340 --> 00:57:52,050 But what will be next? If the next big thing 733 00:57:52,050 --> 00:57:57,420 is also a gated community nothing has changed. 734 00:57:57,420 --> 00:58:02,700 So in order to change things we not only need to provide alternatives 735 00:58:02,700 --> 00:58:08,890 such as the Federation: Diaspora, friendica, etc. 736 00:58:08,890 --> 00:58:13,250 We need to support them, because 737 00:58:13,250 --> 00:58:18,530 maybe you are looking for friends: where should you go? 738 00:58:18,530 --> 00:58:21,600 laughs Maybe you find interesting people on Diaspora. 739 00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:26,010 And they really deserve our support. As users, as donators, 740 00:58:26,010 --> 00:58:30,930 as developers or as allies. And you should never forget 741 00:58:30,930 --> 00:58:35,300 that programming free software and building alternative eco systems 742 00:58:35,300 --> 00:58:39,640 to what we see outside in this gated community world (?) 743 00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:43,430 is also a political act. It’s not only writing software. 744 00:58:43,430 --> 00:58:48,430 It’s writing an alternative code for how we want the world to be! 745 00:58:48,430 --> 00:58:51,910 And there is an alternative to patent wars. 746 00:58:51,910 --> 00:58:54,950 There is an alternative to gated communities and business models 747 00:58:54,950 --> 00:58:58,730 that only are based on exploiting our privacy. 748 00:58:58,730 --> 00:59:02,690 And such projects represent the visions of a better world 749 00:59:02,690 --> 00:59:06,619 and that’s why I would like to support them. 750 00:59:06,619 --> 00:59:11,320 But we also need to address, in order to win this fight, 751 00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:15,000 that these alternatives don’t face fair competition. 752 00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,920 This is market failure on a large scale. 753 00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:23,710 And that is why we need to fight for open standards; and in order to change 754 00:59:23,710 --> 00:59:28,990 the market structures that will create gated communities over and over again 755 00:59:28,990 --> 00:59:34,020 we need to force Facebook… we need to force them and not just kindly ask: 756 00:59:34,020 --> 00:59:37,850 “Mr. Zuckerberg, would you please be so kind to consider 757 00:59:37,850 --> 00:59:42,030 to tear down this wall?”. This will not work! 758 00:59:42,030 --> 00:59:46,170 We need to talk about political solutions. And we need to address this 759 00:59:46,170 --> 00:59:50,109 as a need for market regulation in order that the better solution can win. 760 00:59:50,109 --> 01:00:11,390 Thank you. applause 761 01:00:11,390 --> 01:00:15,900 Herald: Yeah, tear down this wall. Ronald Reagan at its best, 762 01:00:15,900 --> 01:00:18,640 at least Mr. Zuckeberg is watching the stream or 763 01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:22,220 Oettinger is watching the steam. You know what to do! 764 01:00:22,220 --> 01:00:25,340 So come we now to the Questions and Answers. 765 01:00:25,340 --> 01:00:28,610 Microphones on the left, on the right, and also: 766 01:00:28,610 --> 01:00:31,100 are there any questions from the internet? 767 01:00:31,100 --> 01:00:32,860 Signal Angel: Yes, I have 2 questions from the internet. 768 01:00:32,860 --> 01:00:36,990 Herald: Okay, we will start with the internet because I’m sure you are here 769 01:00:36,990 --> 01:00:41,860 after the talk that people can ask you. So, okay, dear internet! 770 01:00:41,860 --> 01:00:44,930 Question: What is the relation of Diaspora and GNU-social or Pump.io 771 01:00:44,930 --> 01:00:47,670 Are there plans to merge the protocols? 772 01:00:47,670 --> 01:00:52,600 Katharina: I think for this question you would really need 773 01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:56,440 to ask the developers. But I can ask this room: 774 01:00:56,440 --> 01:01:01,650 hey, Diaspora developers: are you here? points into audience 775 01:01:01,650 --> 01:01:06,170 Yeah, there! Do you want to say something about this? 776 01:01:06,170 --> 01:01:08,700 Herald: Please just when you’ll go to the microphone, 777 01:01:08,700 --> 01:01:11,210 otherwise it’s not hear in this steam. 778 01:01:11,210 --> 01:01:14,459 Katharina: Yeah, a worm applaus to Dennis Schubert 779 01:01:14,459 --> 01:01:22,699 applause 780 01:01:22,699 --> 01:01:25,690 Dennis: So no, there are no actual plans to merge protocols 781 01:01:25,690 --> 01:01:28,109 but there are discussions on defining a new protocol. 782 01:01:28,109 --> 01:01:33,590 That supports all social networks together. So, yeah. 783 01:01:33,590 --> 01:01:36,520 Herald: Is there another question on… applause 784 01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:38,590 Is there another question from the internet? 785 01:01:38,590 --> 01:01:43,740 Question: Yes: is there a way to import from Facebook to Diaspora? 786 01:01:43,740 --> 01:01:49,830 Katharina: To import data… Yeah this is a interesting thing 787 01:01:49,830 --> 01:01:53,730 e.g. … yeah, I had this in my presentation, 788 01:01:53,730 --> 01:01:57,300 but because of out-of-time reasons I deleted it. 789 01:01:57,300 --> 01:02:00,510 There is fortunately this new EU Privacy Law, 790 01:02:00,510 --> 01:02:06,510 the Privacy Regulation, which will also force platforms 791 01:02:06,510 --> 01:02:11,970 such as Facebook to provide like a data dump of your data 792 01:02:11,970 --> 01:02:16,479 – you can take with you. But I’m still a bit not very convinced 793 01:02:16,479 --> 01:02:22,220 how this will work out, whether or not ALL the data is included. 794 01:02:22,220 --> 01:02:26,140 It would be very convenient if you just had one like… 795 01:02:26,140 --> 01:02:29,340 one data dump and you could just download it and upload it. 796 01:02:29,340 --> 01:02:33,760 But we need to wait and see how this will develop. 797 01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:39,409 Herald: Okay, I’m sorry to hear but at least we are out of time now. 798 01:02:39,409 --> 01:02:42,810 All [remaining] questions afterwards with Katharina. 799 01:02:42,810 --> 01:02:47,140 Give her another warm applaus! For the federous (?) talk! 800 01:02:47,140 --> 01:02:53,020 postroll music 801 01:02:53,020 --> 01:02:57,901 Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de in the year 2016. Join, and help us!