0:00:01.440,0:00:02.440 [Translated by {Iikka}{Yli-Kuivila}[br](ITKST56 course assignment at JYU.FI)] 0:00:03.880,0:00:10.480 Herald: Good morning from C-Base, the[br]space station beyond or under Berlin, 0:00:12.640,0:00:19.120 welcomes you to day 2 of the RC3[br]streaming, we are starting in a few 0:00:19.120,0:00:26.480 seconds with the "Catching the NSO Group's[br]Pegasus spyware". This is something that 0:00:26.480,0:00:32.800 has caught attention among the security[br]and hacker communities over the world in 0:00:32.800,0:00:38.400 the last, I would guess, two years or so.[br]There have been some spectacular cases of 0:00:38.400,0:00:46.720 murder, kidnappings, journalists being[br]threatened, other things. The infamous 0:00:46.720,0:00:53.280 software doing this is called Pegasus,[br]it's marketed by a company known by the 0:00:53.280,0:01:01.680 three-letter acronym NSO, whatever this[br]stands for. And actually, Amnesty 0:01:01.680,0:01:08.240 International and its I.T. department, so[br]to say, has invested quite some effort 0:01:08.240,0:01:17.280 into detecting whether a device has been[br]infected by Pegasus or not. NSO marketed 0:01:17.280,0:01:22.640 this, among other things, as so-called[br]"undetectable", well undetectable as in 0:01:22.640,0:01:28.640 software on a device, as we will see, and[br]our speaker today, Donncha, Donncha O'Cearbhaill 0:01:29.440,0:01:34.800 from Ireland and from Amnesty[br]International, will be presenting how they 0:01:34.800,0:01:41.600 developed detection tools for this nasty[br]piece of spyware that has become so 0:01:41.600,0:01:50.960 popular among secret actors, state actors[br]and others around the world. OK, enough 0:01:50.960,0:01:56.040 for the introduction, Donncha, the scene[br]and the stream is yours. Good morning 0:01:56.040,0:02:02.080 Donncha: Good morning, and thank you for[br]that introduction. So as the intro said, 0:02:02.080,0:02:06.480 today I'd like to talk to you about NSO[br]group's Pegasus spyware, in particular I'd 0:02:06.480,0:02:11.120 like to explain a little bit about how we[br]at Amnesty have investigated Pegasus over 0:02:11.120,0:02:16.480 the past few years and I'll also explain and[br]demonstrate some of the tools we have 0:02:16.480,0:02:22.480 developed and published, that others also[br]investigate and detect Pegasus spyware 0:02:22.480,0:02:25.840 potentially on their devices and the[br]devices of other people in civil society. 0:02:27.760,0:02:31.440 So my name is Donncha O'Cearbhaill and I[br]am a technologist based at the Amnesty 0:02:31.440,0:02:36.320 International Security Lab in Berlin with[br]a small team who focuses on investigating 0:02:36.320,0:02:42.640 targeted digital threats such as spyware,[br]phishing and other kinds of surveillance 0:02:42.640,0:02:46.880 that's directed against civil society and[br]human rights defenders around the world. 0:02:49.440,0:02:54.960 So as the intro said, Pegasus has got a[br]lot of attention in the past few months. 0:02:56.800,0:03:00.800 So you may have seen the Pegasus Project[br]revelations that were published in July 0:03:00.800,0:03:05.680 during the summer. The Pegasus Project was[br]a global investigation into abuses linked 0:03:05.680,0:03:11.520 to NSO group's Pegasus spyware. This[br]investigation was based on a leaked 0:03:13.280,0:03:19.120 dataset of 50,000 potential Pegasus[br]targets, which Amnesty International and 0:03:19.120,0:03:22.640 Forbidden Stories had access to, and so[br]this global media investigation was 0:03:22.640,0:03:26.960 coordinated by Forbidden Stories, with the[br]participation of about 80 journalists from 0:03:26.960,0:03:32.400 17 different media organisations around[br]the world. During the Pegasus Project, 0:03:32.400,0:03:36.960 Amnesty International took the role of a[br]technical partner, and the focus for 0:03:36.960,0:03:42.160 Amnesty International was to perform[br]detailed innovative forensic analysis on 0:03:42.160,0:03:46.720 the devices of potential targets, and[br]through this kind of forensic analysis and 0:03:46.720,0:03:51.040 this technical work we were able to[br]identify traces of Pegasus, either 0:03:51.040,0:03:59.360 targeting or infecting online devices. So[br]over a multi-month project Amnesty 0:03:59.360,0:04:04.720 Security Lab analyzed about 67 devices,[br]and from these 67 devices of potential 0:04:04.720,0:04:11.760 targets at least 37 showed clear traces of[br]Pegasus targeting or infection. So this is 0:04:11.760,0:04:15.360 really quite quite a high number of[br]infected devices, and these devices 0:04:15.360,0:04:21.520 included journalists, activists,[br]opposition political figures, all kinds of 0:04:21.520,0:04:24.572 people who were being unlawfully[br]surveilled using Pegasus. Overall, of the 0:04:24.572,0:04:31.934 phones we have checked, which were iPhones[br]and which hadn't been replaced, which took 0:04:31.934,0:04:36.711 data of the targeting, more than 80[br]percent of the phones that were on this 0:04:36.711,0:04:42.767 list of potential targets showed traces of[br]Pegasus. So in July these stories came out 0:04:42.777,0:04:46.440 and they highlighted cases of of civil[br]society being targeted, such as 0:04:46.440,0:04:50.779 journalists in Hungary, activists in[br]Morocco, activist Saudi Arabian 0:04:50.779,0:04:56.734 dissidents, also family members of Jamal[br]Khashoggi, which the investigation showed 0:04:56.734,0:05:01.364 had been targeted with Pegasus spyware[br]both before and after his his brutal 0:05:01.364,0:05:06.183 murder. So, yeah, you can. You can go and[br]read many of these stories online. Today 0:05:06.183,0:05:10.113 I'd like to focus on and get to how we got[br]there, how we developed these, these 0:05:10.113,0:05:14.922 tools, how we developed this methodology[br]for finding Pegasus. And also to explain 0:05:14.922,0:05:20.460 about how you can also go and do this kind[br]of searching for - for Pegasus and for 0:05:20.460,0:05:27.235 other mobile spyware. So let's take a step[br]back for a second and ask, so what exactly 0:05:27.235,0:05:32.242 is Pegasus? Its name is well known, but[br]what exactly is the software and how does 0:05:32.242,0:05:37.240 it work? OK, so first thing to remember is[br]that actually, while Pegasus have been 0:05:37.240,0:05:41.197 gotten more well known in the last two[br]years, it's not actually a new - a new 0:05:41.197,0:05:45.100 tool or a new product. So we know Pegasus[br]has been around and then developed by NSO 0:05:45.100,0:05:52.843 Group since at least 2010. And on the left[br]hand side here, the diagram, you can see a 0:05:52.843,0:05:58.236 Pegasus brochure from 2010 where it[br]describes how Pegasus can be installed on 0:05:58.236,0:06:03.208 a BlackBerry devices. And we believe the[br]original version of Pegasus was focused on 0:06:03.208,0:06:06.716 BlackBerry because back in 2010,[br]smartphones were less prevalent than they 0:06:06.716,0:06:11.204 are now. BlackBerry is kind of a key[br]target for some of the - the security 0:06:11.204,0:06:16.855 agencies who may want to buy this kind of[br]spyware. So it developed over time here on 0:06:16.855,0:06:22.825 the right hand side, we can see some[br]diagrams that were from a leaked Pegasus 0:06:22.825,0:06:30.880 brochure that was published in 2014. In[br]the first diagram, here it talks about how 0:06:30.880,0:06:37.440 Pegasus is installed on a phone. In this[br]example, it's showing how a Pegasus kind 0:06:37.440,0:06:42.880 of infection link can be sent over SMS to[br]the target device. And then if opened how 0:06:42.880,0:06:46.320 the data can be collected and passed back[br]to the - the operator of the Pegasus 0:06:46.320,0:06:52.320 software. That's just one example of -[br]from their own diagrams. Here in the 0:06:52.320,0:06:57.360 circle below, you'll see a little bit of[br]what Pegasus claims to be able to monitor. 0:06:57.360,0:07:00.400 And if you look at it, you can see it's[br]basically everything on the device. So 0:07:00.400,0:07:03.520 it's talking about collecting email[br]addresses, collecting SMS messages, 0:07:04.160,0:07:08.640 tracking location data, even reading the[br]calendar, turning on the microphone of the 0:07:08.640,0:07:13.680 phone. And so bear in mind while this[br]diagram is quite old, it's like six or 0:07:13.680,0:07:18.320 seven years old, you get an idea of what[br]kind of data the Pegasus software will try 0:07:18.320,0:07:22.880 to collect from the phone. It's basically,[br]it collected every kind of data on the 0:07:22.880,0:07:25.600 phone that might be of interest to[br]somebody who is carrying out the 0:07:25.600,0:07:31.760 surveillance. One important thing to[br]remember is that the Pegasus spyware is 0:07:31.760,0:07:36.800 able to get very kind of deep access to[br]the phone, so it's fundamentally able to 0:07:36.800,0:07:41.680 access everything on the phone that the[br]user is able to access and more. So even 0:07:41.680,0:07:45.280 if you're using a messaging app such as[br]Signal or Telegram, which may be 0:07:45.280,0:07:50.400 encrypted, the Pegasus software is able to[br]access that data and those messages before 0:07:50.400,0:07:54.320 they're encrypted on the device. So even[br]once their spyware running on the phone 0:07:54.320,0:07:58.080 itself, none of these encrypted messaging[br]apps will help because it has such low 0:07:58.080,0:08:05.280 level access to the device. So it's a[br]little bit about what exactly Pegasus 0:08:05.280,0:08:09.920 tries to collect and what it - what it -[br]what people can do with it using the 0:08:09.920,0:08:17.296 Pegasus software. So where exactly did the[br]investigations into Pegasus start? So we 0:08:17.296,0:08:23.640 go back as far as 2016 was when Pegasus[br]was first kind of identified in the wild, 0:08:23.640,0:08:28.837 being a being used to target an activist.[br]So in this case, in 2016, Pegasus was 0:08:28.837,0:08:35.191 first found by Citizen Lab. Citizen lab[br]is a group of researchers based in the 0:08:35.191,0:08:40.241 University of Toronto in Canada, who also[br]works on investigating spyware targeting 0:08:40.241,0:08:47.034 civil society. So in this case, a UAE[br]based human rights defender named Ahmed 0:08:47.034,0:08:51.541 Mansoor began to receive suspicious[br]messages over SMS. So you can see some 0:08:51.541,0:08:56.136 screenshots of the messages on the right.[br]So Ahmed Mansoor was cautious about these 0:08:56.136,0:09:00.126 because in the past he had previously been[br]targeted with other kinds of spyware 0:09:00.126,0:09:03.934 tools, including - including Finfisher.[br]So when he began to receive these 0:09:03.934,0:09:08.027 messages, he - he was cautious about them[br]and he shared them with Citizen Lab, who 0:09:08.027,0:09:12.549 then began to investigate them. So what[br]Citizen Lab realized is that these looked 0:09:12.549,0:09:17.103 to be an attack message, and they opened[br]these attack links on their own testing 0:09:17.103,0:09:22.305 phone. When they did this they're able to[br]capture the exploit that was being 0:09:22.305,0:09:27.885 delivered over these links and also[br]able to capture a copy of the Pegasus 0:09:27.885,0:09:32.830 payload. So what happens when these links[br]are opened is that the link is opened in a 0:09:32.830,0:09:38.392 web browser such as Safari. When the link[br]is opened, the Pegasus server would return 0:09:38.392,0:09:44.108 to some JavaScript, some code that would[br]exploit an unknown flaw in the Safari web 0:09:44.108,0:09:48.368 browser and by kind of manipulating the[br]Safari web browser and exploit this 0:09:48.368,0:09:52.720 unknown flaw - they could then get their[br]own code to start running inside this web 0:09:52.720,0:09:58.107 browser. And eventually, with the help of[br]some additional flaws, they could then get 0:09:58.107,0:10:03.274 more privileged access on the iPhone and[br]eventually install the full Pegasus 0:10:03.274,0:10:10.800 payload. So, yes, Citizen Lab first found[br]it in 2016, it was it was a very important 0:10:10.800,0:10:17.360 discovery and it showed just how how[br]serious some of the threats facing civil 0:10:17.360,0:10:20.320 society were. That there were people[br]willing to use these kinds of very 0:10:20.320,0:10:23.680 expensive exploits to start targeting[br]human rights defenders who are just doing 0:10:23.680,0:10:27.840 their human rights work. Unfortunately,[br]after this, Ahmed Mansoor continued to get 0:10:27.840,0:10:32.800 harassed, and he was sentenced to prison,[br]and he's currently still in prison from 0:10:32.800,0:10:41.604 since 2017. So for about four years now.[br]So when did we at Amnesty start 0:10:41.604,0:10:44.171 investigating this. So our team has been[br]investigating these kinds of threats for a 0:10:44.171,0:10:49.470 while, but really we started focusing on[br]NSO and investigating NSO in 2018 after an 0:10:49.470,0:10:55.015 Amnesty colleague of ours started to[br]receive some suspicious messages. So this 0:10:55.015,0:10:59.289 - this colleague received in May 2018[br]received this message you can see here on 0:10:59.289,0:11:03.732 the left. The message is written in[br]Arabic. But it this it claims that there 0:11:03.732,0:11:08.688 is going to be a protest happening shortly[br]outside the Saudi Arabian Embassy. And 0:11:08.688,0:11:13.088 they asked the Amnesty staff member, to to[br]support the protest and then to click on 0:11:13.088,0:11:18.880 this link for for more information. So[br]fortunately, our Amnesty colleague, when 0:11:18.880,0:11:21.680 they received this message, they got quite[br]suspicious. They were like, this is just 0:11:21.680,0:11:24.960 weird, I don't know this person. And so[br]they shared a screenshot of this message 0:11:24.960,0:11:29.840 with us at the Amnesty Security Lab, and[br]we began to investigate. So quite quickly 0:11:29.840,0:11:34.560 when we started looking at this domain[br]name and the server, and we agreed it 0:11:34.560,0:11:38.880 looked kind of suspicious. And we also[br]managed to identify some additional 0:11:38.880,0:11:45.200 domains and servers that were related to[br]this original akhbar-arabia domain. And 0:11:45.200,0:11:49.040 quite quickly, it started to appear to us[br]that this was indeed something suspicious, 0:11:49.040,0:11:52.000 and maybe it was some kind of an attack[br]message. So at the time, we didn't know it 0:11:52.000,0:11:59.280 was necessarily NSO Group. By looking at[br]the original and initial servers here. We 0:11:59.280,0:12:03.040 managed to create kind of a fingerprint,[br]so some way of identifying the particular 0:12:03.040,0:12:08.400 configuration of the domain name and the[br]server sent inside of this message. With 0:12:08.400,0:12:12.400 the aid of this fingerprint, we then began[br]to do what's called an internet scan. So 0:12:12.400,0:12:17.120 we connect it to every single server on[br]the Internet, send a particular request 0:12:17.120,0:12:20.240 and then find any other server on the[br]Internet that matched this particular 0:12:20.240,0:12:24.800 fingerprint, this particular configuration[br]from this server. So by doing this 0:12:24.800,0:12:30.080 internet scanning, what we found was 600[br]different domains all across the Internet 0:12:31.840,0:12:34.640 that matched this fingerprint and that[br]appeared to be related to the same kinds 0:12:34.640,0:12:40.560 of attacks. So what was really was really[br]key is that we found that these these 0:12:41.280,0:12:45.360 domains were actually related to Pegasus[br]because NSO Group had made one kind of key 0:12:45.360,0:12:49.188 mistake or key flow when they were setting[br]up this infrastructure. So what happened 0:12:49.188,0:12:58.189 is that as described earlier Citizen Lab[br]had previously identified servers being 0:12:58.189,0:13:02.776 used by NSO Group in 2016 after the[br]expose in 2016 NSO shut down all of 0:13:02.776,0:13:07.034 these domains and infrastructure. And then[br]began to set up new kind of infrastructure 0:13:07.034,0:13:11.262 that would not be related to NSO or not[br]linkable to NSO. Fortunately they made a 0:13:11.262,0:13:15.019 mistake because they had reused one domain[br]name from the previous set of 0:13:15.019,0:13:19.800 infrastructure and also being used in this[br]new infrastructure. So by finding this one 0:13:19.800,0:13:24.666 domain out of 600 that had previously been[br]in - in use by NSO, we're able to show 0:13:24.666,0:13:28.986 that these 600 domains were also related[br]to Pegasus. And so we're able to show that 0:13:28.986,0:13:33.956 this message that was sent to our Amnesty[br]International colleague was indeed related 0:13:33.956,0:13:40.105 to Pegasus and was an attempt to to[br]compromise their device. So we published 0:13:40.105,0:13:46.116 these findings in August 2018, and at that[br]time we also identified that another set 0:13:46.116,0:13:51.076 Saudi-Arabian activists had similarly been[br]targeted, with a Pegasus exploit message 0:13:51.076,0:13:56.206 over WhatsApp. Following this, Amnesty[br]International also supported a legal 0:13:56.206,0:14:01.640 action in Israel, which asked the Israeli[br]Ministry of Defense to revoke NSO's export 0:14:01.640,0:14:06.979 licenses. To prevent this Pegasus software[br]being sold to countries that would abuse 0:14:06.979,0:14:12.255 it to target Amnesty and also target other[br]human rights activists. Unfortunately 0:14:12.255,0:14:18.291 later the Israeli court rejected the legal[br]complaint and said that the Israeli 0:14:18.291,0:14:22.820 Ministry of Defense had adequate[br]safeguards in place to prevent NSO's 0:14:22.820,0:14:29.965 exports being sold to countries who would[br]abuse it. Here in the bottom on the left, 0:14:29.965,0:14:36.240 you can see that. You can see a chart[br]which shows the number of Pegasus servers 0:14:36.240,0:14:41.411 online at the time. I mean, see here that[br]when we published this report NSO acted 0:14:41.411,0:14:46.826 quite quickly to shut down all 500 or 600[br]servers that were being used to deliver 0:14:46.826,0:14:50.875 Pegasus. So this just shows that, you[br]know, NSO is kind of reading these 0:14:50.875,0:14:54.791 researches and paying attention to it. It[br]is trying to avoid getting their 0:14:54.791,0:14:58.878 infrastructure and servers discovered by[br]by researchers who are investigating these 0:14:59.728,0:15:16.240 kinds of abuses. So this is back in in[br]2018, so after discovering this attack 0:15:16.240,0:15:21.612 against an Amnesty staff member we at[br]Amnesty continued trying to investigate 0:15:21.612,0:15:28.010 Pegasus to try to find more cases of[br]abuse. We next found Pegasus targeting 0:15:28.010,0:15:35.462 happening in Morocco in 2019. So you can[br]see here on the right. This time, we found 0:15:35.462,0:15:40.812 that a Moroccan human rights defender[br]named Maati Monjib was being targeted 0:15:40.812,0:15:46.596 repeatedly with Pegasus. When we checked[br]his phone, we found that he had some 0:15:46.596,0:15:52.419 suspicious messages there, saying that the[br]messages claimed that there is some, some 0:15:52.419,0:15:57.919 scandal or some news story, and they're[br]asking the target to click on these links 0:15:57.919,0:16:02.423 to find out more information. So when we[br]looked at these these links, we knew 0:16:02.423,0:16:06.696 immediately that they were Pegasus links,[br]because we had previously identified these 0:16:06.696,0:16:12.013 domains as one of the 600 domains, that[br]were being used in 2018. So for example, 0:16:12.013,0:16:16.825 you can see that in the second message on[br]the right, we see the domain 0:16:16.825,0:16:22.077 videosdownload.co. We knew it was Pegasus[br]because we'd previously identified and 0:16:22.077,0:16:30.080 published this domain in 2018. So this[br]time we knew Maati was being targeted with 0:16:30.080,0:16:34.960 Pegasus, but we realized we needed to do[br]some more investigation to see if his 0:16:34.960,0:16:38.880 phone was indeed compromised that we could[br]collect more information from his device. 0:16:39.680,0:16:43.200 So when we did this, we actually found[br]something quite interesting on Maati's 0:16:43.200,0:16:47.920 phone because we found what we believed[br]was evidence of a new type of a targeting 0:16:47.920,0:16:53.600 on his phone. Instead of relying on the[br]target being tricked into clicking on a 0:16:53.600,0:16:58.760 link which is maybe not reliable, or maybe[br]the target can - can see something is 0:16:58.760,0:17:04.240 suspicious. We instead saw them using an[br]what's called a network injection attack. 0:17:04.240,0:17:08.160 So how are network injection attack works[br]is like this: So network injection 0:17:08.160,0:17:15.040 involves having some kind of equipment or[br]software running on the what access to the 0:17:15.040,0:17:18.960 internet connection of the mobile device.[br]So this can either be at the mobile phone 0:17:18.960,0:17:23.120 network or potentially having some - some[br]software or hardware running on the same 0:17:23.120,0:17:28.480 Wi-Fi network as the target. And what it[br]does is when the target is browsing the 0:17:28.480,0:17:33.760 web on their phone, eventually, the target[br]browses and clicks on link that goes to a 0:17:33.760,0:17:39.440 regular http website. So without https. So[br]when this regular http request is made, 0:17:40.160,0:17:43.440 the software that's running on the[br]upstream network can see this http 0:17:43.440,0:17:47.520 request. And when the http request[br]happens, it can instead, instead of 0:17:47.520,0:17:51.920 returning the correct response to correct[br]content, instead it returns a http 0:17:51.920,0:17:57.040 redirect. And the http redirect will then[br]send the browser of the phone to a 0:17:57.040,0:18:02.480 malicious exploit site, which can then[br]hack the phone. So in the case of Maati, 0:18:02.480,0:18:06.160 we found that he had tried to go and check[br]his email and typed in Yahoo.fr on his 0:18:06.160,0:18:10.960 browser when he typed in Yahoo.fr - the[br]software running on the on the upstream 0:18:10.960,0:18:16.400 network saw this cleartext connection and[br]then redirected his phone to this exploit 0:18:16.400,0:18:19.920 link we see above. So you see the domain[br]is quite suspicious: 0:18:19.920,0:18:25.200 "get1tn0w.free247downloads.com". And[br]again, it has some random characters at 0:18:25.200,0:18:29.244 the end, which looks like a kind of an[br]exploit link. So at the time, we suspected 0:18:29.244,0:18:33.748 that this was was Pegasus, and it was a[br]new way of delivering Pegasus without 0:18:33.748,0:18:36.715 tricking the user into clicking on a link.[br]But we weren't certain that it was 0:18:36.715,0:18:44.021 Pegasus, potentially it was some other[br]kind of spyware. Fortunately for us NSO 0:18:44.021,0:18:51.288 helped to confirm that this really was[br]Pegasus, because before we published this 0:18:51.288,0:18:56.124 report, Amnesty wrote to NSO Group sharing[br]our findings and interestingly one day 0:18:56.124,0:19:00.470 after we shared the findings with NSO this[br]spyware server got shut down and went 0:19:00.470,0:19:05.609 offline. And this is already a week before[br]the report was made publicly available. So 0:19:05.609,0:19:09.280 that kind of confirmed to us that NSO[br]really was controlling this infrastructure 0:19:09.280,0:19:13.316 and were able to get it shutdown even when[br]we'd only privately shared this 0:19:13.316,0:19:18.652 information with with NSO. A bit later, we[br]found some more information about how this 0:19:18.652,0:19:23.854 attack may have been done - NSO at a trade[br]fair was demonstrating some new type of 0:19:23.854,0:19:28.132 hardware they had developed, which you can[br]see here on the photo on the right. And we 0:19:28.132,0:19:33.661 believe this this photo is of some kind of[br]IMSI catcher or fake base station, which 0:19:33.661,0:19:39.827 can run a fake mobile phone network. And[br]then target's phone: so Maati could 0:19:39.827,0:19:44.360 connect to this fake mobile phone base[br]station. And from that position, it could 0:19:44.360,0:19:49.339 be possible for NSO to redirect the phone[br]to a malicious - a malicious exploit link. 0:19:49.339,0:19:54.000 So we're not sure what happened in this[br]case if this was the device that was used. 0:19:54.000,0:19:57.912 But we believe the NSO is demonstrating[br]or testing these kinds of what are called 0:19:57.912,0:20:05.920 tactical infection methods. So this was[br]where our findings were in Morocco - we 0:20:05.920,0:20:11.200 started to realize that actually relying[br]on checking for SMS messages, checking for 0:20:11.200,0:20:17.280 links or relying on people coming to us[br]with something suspicious wasn't going to 0:20:17.280,0:20:21.520 work anymore because we began to see what[br]were called zero-click attacks. And so all 0:20:21.520,0:20:25.680 a Zero-click attack is is any way of[br]infecting a device that doesn't rely on 0:20:25.680,0:20:31.200 some interaction from the user. Doesn't[br]rely on the user clicking on a link. So we 0:20:31.200,0:20:33.760 can see here are some examples of other[br]zero-click attacks that have been 0:20:33.760,0:20:37.440 discovered over the past couple of years.[br]I guess one of the first ones here was in 0:20:37.440,0:20:43.840 2019, where NSO Group developed an exploit[br]for a for WhatsApp, and it was then used 0:20:43.840,0:20:51.280 by their customers to target at least 1400[br]different people around the world. All of 0:20:51.280,0:20:58.400 this - how it worked is that the - the[br]target was simply to receive a call over 0:20:58.400,0:21:02.000 WhatsApp, even a missed call and the[br]exploit would be able to compromise their 0:21:02.000,0:21:06.000 phone without the use of clicking[br]anything. As I described earlier, we saw 0:21:06.000,0:21:09.840 these kinds of network injection attacks[br]happen, and then later in 2020, Citizen 0:21:09.840,0:21:18.320 Lab also found an iMessage zero-day being[br]used to again compromise iPhone users 0:21:18.320,0:21:23.680 without any interaction in 2020. So from[br]our own investigations, we have found that 0:21:23.680,0:21:30.960 NSO has been using various zero-click[br]exploits since at least summer 2017 until 0:21:30.960,0:21:35.480 July of this year. So we know it's not[br]something that's quite new for NSO 0:21:35.480,0:21:38.720 but at least it's something we've[br]started only recently discovering in the 0:21:38.720,0:21:42.320 past few years. And we've seen, NSO[br]putting a lot of focus into developing 0:21:42.320,0:21:52.775 these kinds of complicated but very[br]powerful zero-click exploits. So now that 0:21:52.775,0:21:56.720 we know that NSO and their customers are[br]using these kind of zero-click attacks, we 0:21:56.720,0:22:02.000 realized we needed to do something kind of[br]more advanced to try and find these cases 0:22:02.000,0:22:07.160 of cases of - of surveillance. The big[br]problem with mobile devices is a lack of 0:22:07.160,0:22:11.196 visibility, whereas on desktop or laptop[br]computers, we have antivirus available or 0:22:11.196,0:22:14.428 we have EDR systems available. There[br]really is nothing similar that was 0:22:14.428,0:22:18.240 available for mobile devices. So these[br]kinds of attacks, especially zero-click 0:22:18.240,0:22:26.000 attacks, are often going undetected. We[br]got to investigate this. We realized that 0:22:26.000,0:22:29.600 it was difficult to perform forensics on[br]mobile devices. It's actually not 0:22:29.600,0:22:34.080 impossible. We were somewhat surprised to[br]realize that iPhones actually allow a 0:22:34.080,0:22:38.960 significant amount of relevant data to be[br]extracted from the phones themselves in 0:22:38.960,0:22:43.680 the form of an iPhone backup. And so it's[br]actually quite - quite possible to start 0:22:43.680,0:22:48.800 doing a forensic analysis on iPhones.[br]Unfortunately, Android devices we found 0:22:48.800,0:22:52.880 were much more limited because of[br]restrictions on the Android operating 0:22:52.880,0:22:58.160 system. It isn't possible to extract much[br]data in an Android backup, and so all 0:22:58.160,0:23:02.000 we've really been able to do on Android is[br]to simply check the SMS messages and maybe 0:23:02.000,0:23:06.880 the browser history for some traces of -[br]of targeting. But again, it's just it's 0:23:06.880,0:23:11.760 much less data is available on Androids[br]compared to iPhones. The other big problem 0:23:11.760,0:23:15.520 we realized is that there's there's a lack[br]of any kinds of public tools for 0:23:15.520,0:23:19.120 consensual mobile forensics. All of the[br]forensic tools that are out there are 0:23:19.120,0:23:24.800 designed for - for people to extract data[br]from phones that they don't want or their 0:23:24.800,0:23:28.560 phones have been seized or phones that are[br]somehow otherwise obtained. There's no 0:23:28.560,0:23:35.440 there's no tools available to really check[br]your own phone for signs of spyware. So 0:23:35.440,0:23:40.560 this is where the Mobile Verification[br]Toolkit comes into play. So - MVT - it is 0:23:40.560,0:23:43.920 a public tool developed by Amnesty[br]International and designed to simplify the 0:23:43.920,0:23:48.720 process of analyzing mobile devices for[br]traces of spyware. And here it's available 0:23:48.720,0:23:53.360 on GitHub, you can go check it out. And[br]just to highlight all of the 0:23:53.360,0:23:57.520 cases of Pegasus targeting I've described[br]previously in all the cases and traces 0:23:57.520,0:24:01.600 that are present for the rest of the[br]presentation, all of these have been found 0:24:01.600,0:24:09.040 using MVT. So MVT really works to - to[br]detect advanced spyware, including spyware 0:24:09.040,0:24:14.560 using zero-click, zero-day exploits and[br]really sophisticated stuff such as 0:24:14.560,0:24:19.280 Pegasus. So while all of these different[br]spyware vendors try to say: "Our thing is 0:24:19.280,0:24:22.640 undetectable": It is definitely advanced,[br]they definitely spent a lot of money in 0:24:22.640,0:24:27.440 developing this stuff, but it's not magic.[br]And if you're careful and diligent about 0:24:27.440,0:24:30.240 checking the traces, there's always[br]mistakes that are made. There's always 0:24:30.240,0:24:35.472 ways of identifying potential suspicious[br]behavior on these devices. And MVT it is 0:24:35.472,0:24:44.640 written in Python, it's a very easy to[br]install, and if you have PIP, you can just 0:24:44.640,0:24:50.113 go a "pip3 install mvt" . And here's how[br]it's how it's used. Again, it's very 0:24:50.113,0:24:54.906 straightforward. To check an iPhone, you[br]simply make a backup of the iPhone and you 0:24:54.906,0:25:00.005 run this one command so it'll be "mvt-ios[br]check-backup" and then you provide the 0:25:00.005,0:25:05.301 backup folder. In the command here we also[br]see what's called a stix-file. So a .stix 0:25:05.301,0:25:09.959 file is simply a file containing[br]indicators. This maybe like domain names 0:25:09.959,0:25:15.187 or IP addresses, or process names that are[br]known to be linked to a spyware tool. And 0:25:15.187,0:25:19.648 so the MVT is a generic tool. It can be[br]used with Pegasus indicators, but it also 0:25:19.648,0:25:26.134 can be used with indicators for other[br]spyware tools and could be used to detect 0:25:26.134,0:25:31.889 other spyware. So MVT is a modular[br]framework, it has modules for parsing 0:25:31.889,0:25:36.705 different kinds of databases such as SMS[br]messages or browser history or other kinds 0:25:36.705,0:25:41.368 of files on the device. I'm going to go[br]through and explain a few of the modules 0:25:41.368,0:25:46.297 that are available in MVT and show how[br]this can be used to - to find traces of 0:25:46.297,0:25:53.640 Pegasus or other similar spyware tools. So[br]one module that is quite useful is the SMS 0:25:53.640,0:25:58.766 module, which is quite straightforward, it[br]simply reads the SMS database in iPhone 0:25:58.766,0:26:04.283 backup to extract all of the links from[br]the SMS messages and check if any of those 0:26:04.283,0:26:10.656 SMS messages contain links to known[br]malicious domains. So in this case, we're 0:26:10.656,0:26:14.707 checking a backup that is targeted with[br]Pegasus, and we see that - we see that 0:26:14.707,0:26:18.844 there's multiple domains that are found[br]and are tied to Pegasus. We see this 0:26:18.844,0:26:25.221 revolution-news.co, stopsms.biz and[br]from what we know of NSO we've seen these 0:26:25.221,0:26:32.883 kinds of exploit SMS used primarily[br]between 2016 and 2018. We've also seen 0:26:32.883,0:26:37.896 Pegasus links as far back as 2014, and as[br]recently as 2020. So this has been quite 0:26:37.896,0:26:43.200 common and I - if these zero-click attacks[br]are not available, I think we'll still see 0:26:43.200,0:26:51.348 these kinds of exploit links being sent in[br]SMS. So another data source that's quite 0:26:51.348,0:26:56.600 useful and quite helpful for finding[br]traces of targeting is the Safari browser 0:26:56.600,0:27:03.595 history. So what we've seen is we've seen[br]some as we identify traces of exploit 0:27:03.595,0:27:09.464 being recorded in Safari browser history,[br]especially after a network injection 0:27:09.464,0:27:14.294 attack. So in this case, while there's no[br]link in SMS when a network injection 0:27:14.294,0:27:18.800 attack happens the exploit server domain[br]will be recorded in the browser history. 0:27:18.800,0:27:22.506 And so by checking the browser history, we[br]may be able to find evidence that this 0:27:22.506,0:27:31.120 attack happened. So on the right here you[br]can see a screenshot and this screenshot 0:27:31.120,0:27:38.400 was actually taken by Moroccan journalist[br]Omar Radi when he was being targeted with 0:27:38.400,0:27:43.600 one of these network injection attacks in[br]Morocco. So when he was browsing the web 0:27:43.600,0:27:46.720 he clicked the link and then instantly[br]redirected into this web page. And when 0:27:46.720,0:27:49.920 this screenshot was taken, it was actually[br]running the JavaScript trying to exploit 0:27:49.920,0:27:55.440 his phone. So unfortunately, following the[br]publication of this research Omar Radi was 0:27:55.440,0:27:59.920 repeatedly harassed by the Moroccan[br]authorities and then he was eventually 0:27:59.920,0:28:04.556 jailed after an unfair trial, and he's[br]currently - currently in jail. 0:28:06.806,0:28:13.199 So another file quite useful in our[br]investigations is something called the ID 0:28:13.199,0:28:18.462 status cache file. So the ID status cache[br]file is a file on iPhones, and it can 0:28:18.462,0:28:23.671 track traces of any iCloud accounts[br]which interacted with the device. This can 0:28:23.671,0:28:27.408 be interacting with the device over a[br]bunch of different Apple services, 0:28:27.408,0:28:32.266 including iMessage, AirDrop, Apple Photos.[br]And so what is really useful about this 0:28:32.266,0:28:39.282 file, because it showed us which malicious[br]accounts, which kind of Pegasus related 0:28:39.282,0:28:46.080 accounts had been targeting a particular[br]device. So what we know about Pegasus - we 0:28:46.080,0:28:51.920 believe that these malicious accounts are[br]- have been set up and have been used by 0:28:51.920,0:28:58.240 one individual Pegasus customer. So you[br]can see here in the first row, we see this 0:28:58.240,0:29:04.480 email address linakeller and we saw this -[br]this account being used to deliver a 0:29:04.480,0:29:08.400 iMessage zero-day to quite a number of[br]different activists. So we've seen it 0:29:08.400,0:29:16.240 used to deliver exploits to two different[br]Moroccan activists and a couple of French 0:29:16.240,0:29:21.040 political figures. So by - by looking at[br]which individuals have been targeted by 0:29:21.040,0:29:24.720 the same, the same account, by the same[br]customer we were able to kind of get a 0:29:24.720,0:29:28.400 better idea of who that customer might be[br]and have some idea about the attribution 0:29:28.400,0:29:33.840 for that attack. The same in these other -[br]in these other cases, for example we see 0:29:33.840,0:29:39.200 the jessicadavies1345 email. This was[br]found on the phone of two different 0:29:39.200,0:29:44.160 Hungarian journalists. Same for the[br]emmadavies' address and again for this 0:29:44.160,0:29:49.120 final address here: williams enny. We[br]found this on the phone of two different 0:29:50.560,0:29:58.320 Hungarian individuals, hungarian[br]activists. So this is really useful for us 0:29:58.320,0:30:01.450 in our investigation because it really[br]helped us get a better idea of who might 0:30:01.450,0:30:10.480 be behind some of the attacks that we were[br]seeing. So the previous logs 0:30:10.480,0:30:15.840 I showed about SMS, data and browser[br]history. These show kind of traces of 0:30:15.840,0:30:19.280 targeting. They showed some of these had[br]been sent a malicious link, but they don't 0:30:19.280,0:30:23.920 necessarily prove that a phone has been[br]successfully compromised. So what I will 0:30:23.920,0:30:28.700 show now is some of the logs we can use to[br]show that a device was indeed compromised. 0:30:28.800,0:30:32.580 One of these files that was very useful[br]for us in our investigations was the so- 0:30:32.580,0:30:39.600 called data usage file. So the data usage[br]file in an iPhone is a file that records 0:30:39.600,0:30:43.920 information about how much mobile data[br]traffic each process on the phone has 0:30:43.920,0:30:49.120 used. So this may be used to, like help[br]the iPhone keep track of, you know, which 0:30:49.120,0:30:52.720 apps on your phone are using the most of[br]your mobile data. But what is really 0:30:52.720,0:30:56.640 helpful for this is that it actually[br]recorded the names of some of the Pegasus 0:30:56.640,0:31:01.162 processes and how much data each of these[br]pegasus processes were using. So for all 0:31:01.162,0:31:08.160 we know about NSO's Pegasus, we believe[br]that when Pegasus is installed on a phone, 0:31:08.160,0:31:13.666 it will kind of pick a random name that it[br]uses to kind of hide itself in running on 0:31:13.666,0:31:18.000 the system. Throughout our investigation[br]we found about 50 different process names 0:31:18.000,0:31:21.956 that the Pegasus process was using to try[br]and hide itself. And once we identified 0:31:21.956,0:31:26.087 these process names, then we could go and[br]look for these Pegasus known Pegasus 0:31:26.087,0:31:31.599 process names on devices of potential[br]targets. What's happened, this database 0:31:31.599,0:31:36.141 also shows a timestamp of when this[br]process name was first kind of started on 0:31:36.141,0:31:40.381 the device, when it was last seen on the[br]device. And also it gives you some kind of 0:31:40.381,0:31:44.570 information about how much data this[br]process transferred. In some cases, this 0:31:44.570,0:31:48.174 has been gigabytes of data which shows[br]that really the Pegasus spyware was 0:31:48.174,0:31:53.494 extracting a lot of data from the device.[br]And again, this is all automated in MVT 0:31:53.494,0:31:58.851 so if you check a phone using MVT with the[br]Pegasus indicators, it'll show quite 0:31:58.851,0:32:04.799 clearly if any of these processes have[br]been found on the device. Another feature 0:32:04.799,0:32:11.440 that's been very helpful for us and in our[br]analysis is the timeline feature of MVT. 0:32:11.440,0:32:17.291 So how the Timeline feature works is it[br]takes all of the different indicators and 0:32:17.291,0:32:21.285 modules on the phone, so it checks the -[br]the SMS messages, it check the - the file 0:32:21.285,0:32:27.119 system and every - every event, like every[br]SMS message, every web browser lookup will 0:32:27.119,0:32:33.228 all be recorded in a single file with the[br]date that it happened. So by looking at 0:32:33.228,0:32:38.557 this timeline, we can often see what[br]different events happened around the same 0:32:38.557,0:32:43.013 time as each other, and this can give us[br]some idea - some idea about how attacks 0:32:43.013,0:32:48.172 were actually delivered on this device. So[br]I want to give you just one example of - 0:32:48.172,0:32:52.405 of how this timeline can be used. Just so[br]you know how to use this timeline in your 0:32:52.405,0:32:59.885 own investigations. So this is actually a[br]demonstration of the phone of a Rwandan 0:32:59.885,0:33:06.284 activist who was targeted in June 2021[br]using the forcedentry, iMessage zero-day. 0:33:06.284,0:33:13.898 So we can see here on the timeline that on[br]8:00 p.m. 8:45, we see the phone began to 0:33:13.898,0:33:18.428 receive some push notifications over[br]iMessage. So it seems it receives like 46 0:33:18.428,0:33:24.940 push notifications. And then what we saw[br]was that SMS attachments began to be 0:33:24.940,0:33:29.821 written to the phone. So in the final line[br]here, we see that a file is written - 0:33:29.821,0:33:33.642 written to the SMS attachments directory.[br]And if you look at the end of the line, we 0:33:33.642,0:33:38.873 see that the - the file being written to[br]disk actually had a .GIF attachment. So at 0:33:38.873,0:33:44.406 the time we thought this was something to[br]do with the exploit somehow. NSO was 0:33:44.406,0:33:50.465 delivering their exploit in that GIF file.[br]If we look a little bit later in the 0:33:50.465,0:33:56.054 timeline, we see that about 10 minutes[br]later, on the same day, a Pegasus process 0:33:56.054,0:34:02.095 starts running on the phone. This otpgrefd[br]process. Shortly afterwards, some 0:34:02.095,0:34:06.789 additional files are written on disk and[br]some more Pegasus processes start. So by 0:34:06.789,0:34:12.059 looking at this timeline together, we can[br]see quite clearly that the phone began to 0:34:12.059,0:34:15.544 receive iMessage messages. These GIF[br]attachments start to be written on the 0:34:15.544,0:34:21.040 disk and then about 10 minutes later, the[br]phone was compromised with the Pegasus. So 0:34:21.040,0:34:23.360 remember here like - there was no[br]interaction from the user - they didn't 0:34:23.360,0:34:26.320 click on any link. As far as we are aware[br]they I didn't even notice anything 0:34:26.320,0:34:29.120 happening on the device. This simply[br]silently these messages were being 0:34:29.120,0:34:35.280 delivered and after 10 or 20 minutes,[br]Pegasus began to gain access to the 0:34:35.280,0:34:39.600 device. So we've shared some of these[br]findings with Apple, and then later in 0:34:39.600,0:34:46.640 September 2021, Apple - Citizen Lab[br]identified a copy of this exploit on 0:34:46.640,0:34:49.840 another - phone of an another activist and[br]they shared it with Apple and Apple 0:34:49.840,0:35:01.499 patched this vulnerability in September[br]2021. So that's a little bit of how MVT 0:35:01.499,0:35:06.840 works and how some of this methodology[br]works to identify Pegasus on a 0:35:06.840,0:35:12.674 device. So since we published our forensic[br]methodology and our tools, many other 0:35:12.674,0:35:18.770 groups and organisations have been using[br]these tools and methodology to check other 0:35:18.770,0:35:24.469 devices for signs of Pegasus and found[br]quite a number of new cases. Here on the 0:35:24.469,0:35:28.796 top right you're going to see an example[br]of another NGO "Frontline Defenders", who 0:35:28.796,0:35:33.262 identified six Palestinian human rights[br]defenders who had their devices hacked 0:35:33.274,0:35:39.154 using Pegasus. And other case we see[br]that the Belgian military intelligence 0:35:39.154,0:35:43.985 services use a similar methodology to[br]check the phones of journalists in 0:35:43.985,0:35:48.670 Belgium, and they found that a journalist,[br]Belgian journalist, Peter Verlinden, had 0:35:48.670,0:35:53.809 his iPhone hacked who they suspected by[br]Rwanda. Again, we see another case where 0:35:53.809,0:35:58.620 French intelligence services confirmed[br]that a number of French journalists had 0:35:58.620,0:36:05.952 their phones hacked using using Pegasus[br]again using a similar methodology. So what 0:36:05.952,0:36:11.187 I'd like to highlight is MVT can really be[br]useful in identifying traces of Pegasus, but also 0:36:11.187,0:36:17.827 MVT is designed as a kind of generic[br]mobile forensic tool. So when used with 0:36:17.827,0:36:21.100 Pegasus indicators it will find Pegasus,[br]but it also can be used to go and 0:36:21.100,0:36:25.058 proactively search for new kinds of[br]spyware. So I really recommend that if 0:36:25.058,0:36:29.427 you're suspicious that phones may be[br]targeted with this kind of spyware, you 0:36:29.427,0:36:34.442 can use MVT to extract some data and then[br]dig into it. If the person is a member of 0:36:34.442,0:36:38.111 civil society or an activist then Amnesty[br]and other organisations will be happy to 0:36:38.111,0:36:44.270 help support these investigations. And[br]also, MVT is an open source tool. It's 0:36:44.270,0:36:49.067 based on different modules, and so we're[br]always open to ideas for - for new modules 0:36:49.067,0:36:54.368 and new detection ideas to help make this[br]tool better and better able to detect new 0:36:54.368,0:37:03.620 kinds of threats. One thing to remember[br]about MVT it is - it's designed to detect 0:37:03.620,0:37:06.738 some kind of spyware. Unfortunately, the[br]people who develop these spyware, they're 0:37:06.738,0:37:10.123 - they're smart people and they read these[br]reports and they watch these kind of 0:37:10.123,0:37:14.819 presentations. And every time we publish[br]information about how to detect these 0:37:14.819,0:37:20.352 kinds of spyware targeting civil society,[br]the different spyware vendors and actors 0:37:20.352,0:37:24.540 will try to improve their tools to avoid[br]them being detected. They'll try to kind 0:37:24.540,0:37:29.689 of upgrade their infrastructure to hide it[br]again or to the better obscure their 0:37:29.689,0:37:35.017 activities. So just to give an example,[br]here's some of the development of NSO's 0:37:35.017,0:37:38.960 own infrastructure over time. We see that[br]after we published - Amnesty published the 0:37:38.960,0:37:44.577 report in 2018 NSO infrastructure was shut[br]down and then later over the next two 0:37:44.577,0:37:49.966 years, it began to run more[br]infrastructure, which was again shut down 0:37:49.966,0:37:57.702 after discovery in - in 2021. So it's a[br]constant arms race. And so while - while 0:37:57.702,0:38:00.620 this - these tools are useful to detect[br]Pegasus now, it's not always going to be 0:38:00.620,0:38:04.827 just automatic, and it's important to do[br]further research to try and identify new 0:38:04.827,0:38:12.277 traces of new kinds of attacks. So what is[br]the future for mobile spyware? So one 0:38:12.277,0:38:16.628 thing I'd like to reiterate is that while[br]we focus a lot on NSO Group and Pegasus in 0:38:16.628,0:38:20.298 this research and in this[br]talk and also there's been a lot of focus 0:38:20.298,0:38:24.064 on NSO Group. It's not the only mobile[br]spyware out there, and there's definitely 0:38:24.064,0:38:28.680 many other players who are trying to get[br]into the space and trying to also develop 0:38:28.680,0:38:34.750 similar kinds of spyware tools, which are[br]then sold to - to different customers. 0:38:34.750,0:38:41.735 We've seen that from this investigation.[br]We found at least 180 journalists who are 0:38:41.735,0:38:45.280 potential targets of Pegasus and many[br]other human rights activists and 0:38:45.280,0:38:50.157 opposition politicians who have been[br]targeted with these tools over the last number 0:38:50.157,0:38:55.907 of years. So far, these threat actors and[br]these - these state agencies are able to 0:38:55.907,0:39:00.992 target activists and civil society with[br]impunity due to a lack of visibility and 0:39:00.992,0:39:05.222 telemetry on mobile platforms. They've[br]just been getting away with it because 0:39:05.222,0:39:08.668 they haven't been detected. So tools such[br]as MVT can help expose some of these 0:39:08.668,0:39:13.489 threats, but they need to be used more[br]widely and need to be used with more civil 0:39:13.489,0:39:18.781 society to really understand the full[br]scope of these kinds of threats. And it's 0:39:18.781,0:39:23.505 also important that industry, the tech[br]industry and the security industry work 0:39:23.505,0:39:27.296 closely with civil society to help detect[br]and expose these threats because 0:39:27.296,0:39:32.478 unfortunately, the people most at risk[br]from these kinds of really serious attacks 0:39:32.478,0:39:36.204 are some of the people who are the least[br]equipped, both financially and technically 0:39:36.204,0:39:43.120 to defend against them. So to conclude,[br]I think we're going to continue to see 0:39:43.120,0:39:49.440 attackers focusing on mobile. Mobile is[br]where all the data is. No other place 0:39:49.440,0:39:52.080 gives you as much insight into somebody's[br]life and all their most innermost 0:39:52.080,0:39:56.400 thoughts. Even just having a microphone in[br]everybody's pocket in someone's pocket is 0:39:56.400,0:40:01.680 such a powerful position to be in that we[br]think companies and states will continue 0:40:01.680,0:40:07.120 trying to develop these kinds of tools. We[br]know - I think that zero-click exploits 0:40:07.120,0:40:11.520 are going to be highly, highly desirable.[br]So while Apple and others have done a 0:40:11.520,0:40:15.920 great job in making attacks against[br]iMessages more difficult, it's almost 0:40:15.920,0:40:19.920 certain that these kinds of cyber[br]surveillance companies will continue 0:40:19.920,0:40:24.480 trying to develop zero-click exploits. If[br]not for iMessage then maybe for other chat 0:40:24.480,0:40:30.080 platforms. I don't know like Signal or[br]Telegram or WhatsApp, they're going to try 0:40:30.080,0:40:37.166 and attack other applications that[br]activists are using. Unfortunately it's 0:40:37.166,0:40:42.101 not possible for activists and civil[br]society to protect themselves from these 0:40:42.101,0:40:47.034 kinds of zero-day attacks from a technical[br]sense. So we definitely need more active 0:40:47.034,0:40:51.577 collaboration between civil society and[br]key platform vendors to help identify and 0:40:51.577,0:40:56.189 defend against these threats. And also, we[br]urgently need better regulation to prevent 0:40:56.189,0:41:00.790 these kinds of really sophisticated[br]spyware tools being sold to states and 0:41:00.790,0:41:07.217 agencies which have a long history of[br]abusing them to target civil society and 0:41:07.217,0:41:12.978 opposition. So thank you all for[br]listening, and I'm happy to answer some 0:41:12.978,0:41:17.750 questions now. If you have some questions[br]or if you're concerned about, you are a 0:41:17.750,0:41:20.680 member of civil society or an activist [br]or are concerned about surveillance please 0:41:20.680,0:41:24.868 feel free to contact us at share@amnesty.tech [br]Thank you. 0:41:24.868,0:41:30.602 Herald: Thank you Donncha. Thank you from[br]C-Base. We have already taken some 0:41:30.602,0:41:37.033 overtime this early hacker morning. There[br]have been popping up some small questions 0:41:37.033,0:41:42.736 on our internal here from our tiny[br]audience at C-Base. We don't have that 0:41:42.736,0:41:47.686 much time left. Just can you give us an[br]indication: What is the pace of this 0:41:47.686,0:41:53.558 ongoing war? Do you feel that NSO group is[br]actively fighting MVT and your tool 0:41:53.558,0:41:57.533 development or did - didn't you get this[br]honor yet? 0:41:57.533,0:42:04.998 D: Definitely. We've seen, even in the[br]past year, we saw NSO starting to be more 0:42:04.998,0:42:11.084 careful about cleaning up their forensic[br]traces, and since 2020, they've begun to 0:42:11.084,0:42:14.915 already clean some of the traces that[br]we've been using. And it's clear they've 0:42:14.915,0:42:17.781 realized that people are investigating[br]that there is a risk of people discovering 0:42:17.781,0:42:20.990 this stuff, and I feel like after the[br]revelations of this summer, they're going 0:42:20.990,0:42:25.781 to have a much more proactively trying to[br]to clean up some of these traces. But as I 0:42:25.781,0:42:30.800 said, NSO is one company out there,[br]there's also many other companies trying 0:42:30.800,0:42:35.120 to compete in the same space. So even if[br]NSO gets better than, you know, other 0:42:35.120,0:42:38.825 companies are still out there and can[br]still be caught using MVT and 0:42:38.825,0:42:44.324 fundamentally, even if they - they clean[br]up some traces for any kind of failed 0:42:44.324,0:42:48.065 attacks, these traces are still going to[br]be left around because it won't be 0:42:48.065,0:42:51.440 possible to for the spyware to clean up[br]their traces. 0:42:51.440,0:42:57.437 H: Uhm-Hmm. So one could still after an[br]attack eventually, eventually on an old 0:42:57.437,0:43:03.465 device years later discover that there had[br]been some spyware activity, which may be 0:43:03.465,0:43:09.870 in the long run interesting information[br]about dark campaigns and things. So NSO is 0:43:09.870,0:43:15.360 not the only actor, there will be more. Do[br]you feel that there are just copycats in 0:43:15.360,0:43:20.690 the market or do you think there will be[br]completely new threats in the future? 0:43:20.690,0:43:24.811 D: So I guess there's always there's lots[br]of smart people who work for these 0:43:24.811,0:43:29.580 companies who are trying to develop these[br]tools. Just last - earlier this month, 0:43:29.580,0:43:34.180 Citizen Lab published a report about[br]another cyber surveillance vendor called 0:43:34.180,0:43:40.759 Cytrox based in North Macedonia, and they[br]were selling similar spyware, which is 0:43:40.759,0:43:45.002 using kind of one-click attacks using[br]links to help compromise iPhones and 0:43:45.002,0:43:50.256 Android phones. So that's one company[br]that's competing in this space. There's 0:43:50.256,0:43:54.869 other companies doing doing similar kinds[br]of targeting, but we believe, you know, 0:43:54.869,0:43:58.766 NSO was definitely the biggest company in[br]this space, and they had a lot of money to 0:43:58.766,0:44:04.575 invest in, especially in these kind of[br]zero-click attacks. So for now, we don't 0:44:04.575,0:44:07.579 know if they're a company that's as big or[br]sophisticated as NSO, but I think many 0:44:07.579,0:44:11.769 others will be trying to take their place[br]if NSO becomes less popular. 0:44:11.769,0:44:19.466 H: I see. I see. OK, thank you very much.[br]We have to go over to the - RC3 morning 0:44:19.466,0:44:26.754 show in a few seconds. Thank you very much[br]for this interesting talk this morning. 0:44:26.754,0:44:33.970 Again, share@amnesty.tech is the address[br]to go to. And this is probably one of the 0:44:33.970,0:44:38.931 talks you want to watch again on[br]media.ccc.de in a few days when it has 0:44:38.931,0:44:45.760 been published. So greetings to Ireland.[br]Thank you very much and we will meet and 0:44:45.760,0:44:51.280 see again in real, I hope. Thank you.[br]D: Thank you very much. Have a good day. 0:44:54.720,0:45:03.000 Everything is licensed under CC by 4.0.[br]And it is all for the community, to download 0:45:03.000,0:45:03.570 Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de[br]in the year 2022. Join, and help us! 0:45:03.571,0:45:03.841 [Translated by {Iikka}{Yli-Kuivila} (ITKST56 course assignment at JYU.FI)]