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preroll music
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Herald: Good afternoon everyone. As you
all know this is going to be an
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interesting talk for sure. It is titled
Sense Without Sight. Our next speaker is
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Sai and without too much ado please give
him a big round of applause.
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He's going to be here shortly.
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Applause
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Sai: So you might be thinking that I am
Daredevil. I'm not sadly. Well, probably
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better for my health. And I do not have
any magic powers, unfortunately. I just
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have extra disabilities that make it
harder for me. Nevertheless -
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one two back - yay live demos! dum di dum
where did that move?
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Angel: Are you going to fall off stage?
Sai: No I'm not going to fall off stage.
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Angel: Because you're right at, you're
going to be falling soon.
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Sai: No I can walk around without my cane.
It's a little hard to precisely target it,
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but as you can see I don't fall off stage.
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So just to make this clearer, I am not
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faking this. And the way you can tell is I
have a blindfold on. This blindfold is for
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real. This is a sleep mask. I can't see
anything right now. So you don't need to
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ask how good my sight is or why,
because I can't see.
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The issue that I have is light blindness.
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Basically I can see if it's
really dark and I can't see if it's really
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bright, and lights that are as bright as
the lights here actually hurt my eyes,
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kind of, right now through the blindfold.
So I definitely would not be able to do
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this with my eyes open and my glasses off.
I do a lot of different things. Blindness
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is not one of them. On my shirt, and my
slides, and my website, there's all sorts
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of stuff that we can talk about. Let's
please talk about that stuff, not the fact
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that I'm blind. Except during this talk or
during my workshops when you're - it's
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okay to ask questions about that or talk
about that. Exception is if you want to
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work with me on stuff or if you have
feedback I welcome that. But let's talk
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about something else like how to analyze a
few terabytes of court data. Anyway!
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I have assistants for this talk. One of
them is what I'm going to be calling the
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"helpful asshole" aka my herald.
Herald: You're welcome.
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Sai: Come up. I also have Bit. Bit, where
are you?
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Bit: Here!
Sai: Good! And I have someone running
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slides for me because obviously I can't
see my own slides. Fortunately for you
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that means I'm not giving the talk like
this to do to do what I've just talked
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about. Yeah it is okay to make sound. If
anything it's helpful because it I can
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hear where you are. So you might wonder
how I walked onto stage without my cane.
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I'm going to go over that in a second but
first, the cane is really, really useful.
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So it gives me a number of things. For
instance, right here, you might not notice
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it, but there is a difference in the
floor. There is this carpeted section here
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and there's this wood section here...
different knocking sounds
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Right? Now if I just brush this with my
feet I can feel it. And that's how I
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walked on stage. But if I do it with my
cane - hear that whack?
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slinging and whacking sounds
You can say yes in response to questions.
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You hear that wack?
Audience: Yes!
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Sai: So even if I'm lightly walking I just
keep that out at a known degree and I can
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easily walk alongside of it. I can also
feel the texture. So one thing you may not
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notice but may as well try now is that the
texture of the carpet under your feet -
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under your feet, the people who are
live in this audience - I don't know
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about you people at home, sorry. But this
stage I have checked out and it is
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smoother from the front of stage to the
back of stage and is smoother from the
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right of stage to the left stage. And I
believe that's true for most of the floor
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and the audience but it's made out of
separate squares. So some of them may be
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oriented in a different way so feel with
your feet, for real, like right now, feel.
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and feel if you can see if you can feel
which way it's smooth and which way it's
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rough. With the cane, when I drag it like
this, it's smoother, when I drag like
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this, it resists, and especially if I'm
holding it like this with a firmer grip -
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this is nice and smooth. This way it sort
of resists, it bends the cane a little bit.
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What else. There's sound, so
something I can do really well with a cane
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that's hard to do with my feet but I can
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stomping
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I can do that. But I can also do this
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sharp whacking sounds
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so...
lower pitched whacking
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that those two sound completely
different, right?
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different whacking sounds
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In fact...
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whacking sound changes again
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Here the stage is not hollow underneath.
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Here it's firmer and then
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whacking sound changes dramatically
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suddenly it's echo-y.
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alternating whacking sounds
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Right? So that helps me tell
just sort of what ground I'm on.
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Similarly, actually in the front of the
stage. So
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different whacking sounds
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and then near - sorry about your mic
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the stage edge,
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whacking
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it's really sort of
resistant, whereas
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more solid sounds
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there, it's got much more
of an echo to it.
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One thing this is very useful for is
echolocation. I am not a bat but it is the
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same principle. There are some people who
are much much much better than I am about
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echolocation. I'm not that good. But what
I can hear, and what you can hear, and
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what you're going to try to hear right
now, is the size of the room. So I'm going
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to whack the stage with my cane. What I
want you to do is while I'm doing it,
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close your eyes. You're not going to miss
anything. The slide's not going to change.
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I'm just here. So close your eyes and move
your head from side to side as I do it.
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And you can even sort of look behind you,
and listen for the sound of the size of
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the room. You'll be able to hear how large
the room is around you and you'll hear the
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echo of my cane from the back of the room.
Kill the PA for a sec.
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whack
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whack
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whack
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whack
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whack
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Right?
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whack
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PA!
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more whacks
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OK so that's a simple version. Another
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version is these stage curtains. How do I
not faceplant into them. Well there's a
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few ways. For one, I can just run into it
with my cane.
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speaker feedback noise
That's the speaker, sorry about that. And
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that is curtain, nice and soft. There are
several other things about this I'm going
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to show in a bit, but also if I'm - sorry
about the speaker - if I'm walking through
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this and I walk through the side curtain,
sort of behind.
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whacking
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Huh, they've added extra stuff
to the stage. Yay!
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whacking
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It absorbs the sound when I am tapping
near it
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there's that.
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Bit, where are you?
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Bit: Looks like you're lost, you need some help?
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Sai: Sorry?
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Bit: Do you need some help? Looks like
you're lost.
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Sai: Thank you dear angel. No I do know
where I am. So my dear signal angel, my
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herald is representing that person who is
trying to be helpful to me several times a
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day, and kind of annoys me, or ranges from
annoying to actually dangerous.
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I obviously know where I am because I'm
navigating the stage is just fine, and you
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saw me walk on without even my cane. So
thank you. But no, I don't need
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directions. Bit!
Bit: Here! Howdy!
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Sai: So with someone who's right next to
you like this, how do I - how can I tell
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that he's there. I'm not touching him with
the cane, although I can and I do. So if I
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whack you in the ankle: sorry but that's
how I can tell you're there, especially if
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you're standing really quiet. It's really
hard to tell that someone's there and
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especially in a crowd like this. So yes
I'm going to hit you in the ankle, too bad.
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That's how I can tell you're there.
But in this distance I can feel his body
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heat radiating. So from about this
distance away, meh. From this distance, I
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can definitely feel it on the back of my
arm. There is his shoulder, there's his
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cheek. So actually I would like you to try
doing that. So turn to the person who's
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next to you, ask their consent first. I
have asked Bit's consent for everything
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that we're going to do. And what I would
like you to do is put your hand up next to
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them. Try to almost touch their cheek
without quite touching their cheek. And
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then deliberately do so. So almost, but
not quite, just by the heat, with your
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eyes closed, and then trade off.
Yeah, go ahead!
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audience murmurs, giggles
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light whacks
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So another place that I feel this is on
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walls. This wall for instance, the front
of the stage, there is actually wind
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coming through these little holes in them.
That wind is colder than the ambient
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temperature of the room. If I get my arm
really close to it, then at about this
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distance, I feel the cold air from it, and
then at about that distance, there's
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actually sort of a sheet wind that is
really tight close to the wall and then,
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there my hair - the hairs on the back of
my arm tingle, and there, I can touch it.
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So we have people who are in the audience
on scooters and such. They're going to
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drive through the aisles. I want you to
close your eyes and see if you can feel
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the wind generated by
them moving past you,
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and also the sound.
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rhythmic rumbling
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Some of them are louder than others.
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So you feel how when they pass you there's
a breeze in their wake. This happens a lot
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in Congress. There are lots of people on
scooters and hover boards and motorized
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couches or whatever - gods know what
people motorized around here. Or it's
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someone just walking really fast like me.
They all generate a wind in their wake.
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Another thing you'll notice in Congress is
- there's these nice tunnels. So for
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instance from CCL to Hall 2, there's this
tunnel through the glass hall. When you
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walk through, the wind characteristics of
the room completely change. You start
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feeling a crosswind. So if I'm walking
this way and the tunnel is on my right
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then suddenly I will feel a crosswind from
the tunnel that is colder and wasn't there
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before. Similarly with the wall there's
just sort of stops. Next?
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Oh yeah. So...
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everyone please close your eyes. And I do
mean everyone. Not the audio angels or the
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video angels. But everyone in the audience
please close your eyes. If your phone
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number ends with the number 1 please move
your arms in such a way as to make some
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wind. If your phone number doesn't end in
the number 1, point to the person who's
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making some wind. I can't see you so I'm
not going to judge you.
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So do you feel that? Yes? No?
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Audience: No.
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How about people whose phone number ends
in 1 stop, people whose phone number ends
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in 4 make some wind like wave your arm in
front of you.
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Feel that? Try pointing to them.
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Not the people who ends in 4, you
can point to yourselves, I guess.
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People whose number ends in 7.
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So that's movement. When
people move by you, it
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generates wind. When there is a tunnel and
there's an air differential, like the air
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under this stage is colder. And that's why
there's a wind out of it. Actually -
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du bi dub di dub
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Herald: Let me hold your
hand and get that for you.
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Sai: Ah, thanks.
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Herald: No? You're good? You're sure?
Sai: Yeah, let go of me please!
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Sai: Oh yay! More stuff.
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cane hitting wall and railing
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So down here
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whacking
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If open the door and I walk past it,
there is this crosswind, I was mentioning
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a second ago, about the tunnel. So here
there's a sort of flat to my right and
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then here I walk a little bit forward.
Suddenly there is this crosswind
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from that opening. Similarly when people
were biking by you, you could tell that.
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Similarly if I crack my cane
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whacking
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I don't know if you can hear that very
well, but try. There's...
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barely audible whacking
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there's a sound off to that side
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that sort of ends at the door. And then
if I knock my cane here
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whacking
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there's a little reflection
through that door.
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And yes I do know how
to close a door.
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I know, amazing!
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Similarly for these walls
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I can feel the
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that I'm close to the wall, or not.
Tingley, not tingley.
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What's next.
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Yes. So yeah you've added
more random crap.
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Herald: Can I move these chairs for you,
so you can...
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Sai: Uh, no, please.
Herald: Would that be helpful?
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Sai: Sometimes that would be helpful. But
at the moment not so much, because if you
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were to move it when I've already found
where it is, then suddenly it wouldn't be
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there any more, and it'd be hard for me to
orient. One of the things that is
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difficult about being blind is you have to
have quite a lot of memory. So the things
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that you probably don't notice because you
outsource your memory is how much of the
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environment around you changes. So ask a
blind person they probably hate
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construction work.
audience laughs
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I do. And if I try to go sit down for
instance for that matter - there's a chair
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- if this had moved a lot, it would be
really hard for me to take a seat. Now, he
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doesn't smell that bad, but some people
have a pretty significant smell, because
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they're wearing perfume or cologne or Axe
or something like that. If you've ever
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been in a public transit terminal and
you've taken the elevator, maybe you know
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the distinct aroma of the elevator in
public transit. Definitely lets you know
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you're in New York City. So the next
group, start moving. So my assistants in
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the audience are moving through the aisles
with something in their hands. What I want
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you to do is close your eyes. Smell, feel
the wind current, smell what is it, point
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to them. You point exactly where they are.
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Hhm, yummy orange.
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So now I'm really hungry.
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So if I'm walking past a coffee
shop for instance, it has a distinct
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smell, smells like coffee, shockingly enough.
A drugstore smells like alcohol and
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cleaning solution. A clothing store smells
like leather and this weird perfume that
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they put in clothing stores for some
reason. I don't know why, but they do. And
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if you ever visit one hopefully you'll
notice it now.
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So let's see, next? Huh?
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Ah, right! Dear asshole, you know your
lines?
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Herald: [inaudible]
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Sai: Bit! Do you have your blindfold on?
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Bit: Uh, no.
Sai: Please do.
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Bit: I don't have one.
Sai: I don't have an extra one.
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00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,090
Bit: [inaudible]
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00:27:27,090 --> 00:27:30,230
Sai: laughs
Did you move his blindfold also?
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Bit: [inaudible]
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00:27:38,420 --> 00:27:40,460
Sai: Shall I lend you mine?
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Bit: [inaudible]
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00:27:51,615 --> 00:27:57,200
Sai: Ah, that get's bright! Ow.
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00:27:59,380 --> 00:28:04,890
So if you are going to try to
help someone navigate.
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First off say would you like some help.
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00:28:10,067 --> 00:28:13,294
Bit: So I'm pretty confused now,
so, yes, please!
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00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,220
laughter
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00:28:16,790 --> 00:28:24,240
Sai: So don't just randomly assault
people. Just because I have a cane does
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not mean it's cool to assault me. Then if
you're going to touch them, do so with the
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00:28:31,490 --> 00:28:37,100
back of your hand. This way he knows I'm
not just randomly grabbing him and yanking
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him around. That's really annoying. So I
can offer you my arm. We can walk. Let's
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go have a seat.
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laughter
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Here we go. That's your seat. Now some
people will like grab the hand and put it
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down. Instead I can just say:
here's a chair.
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Ta da!
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00:29:10,919 --> 00:29:13,559
So follow me for a sec.
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00:29:13,559 --> 00:29:16,672
Can I have a sidewalk beep in the back?
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00:29:18,044 --> 00:29:21,769
scratching
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So let's do a little crack.
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whackwhack
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Do you hear the back of the
room, where that is?
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Bit: Can you do it once more?
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00:29:38,185 --> 00:29:39,185
whack
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Bit: I think it's in front of me, a bit to
the right, maybe.
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Sai: So one thing you really don't want to
do when someone is possibly trying to
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00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:06,590
figure out their orientation is to
randomly come up to them and grab them,
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and pull them. Dear asshole?
Herald: Yes please? Can I help you,
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can I take you somewhere?
Sai: Let's pretend that you think he
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wants to go down the stairs. He thinks
he wants to walk towards the audience.
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Let's walk towards the
audience a little bit.
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Herald: So here the stairs are this way.
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Yeah.
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laughter
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Sai: OK, pause for a sec.
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Herald: ... for the stairs.
Bit: No, not.. really not.
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Herald: I'm pretty sure you are. You look
lost!
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Bit: I'm trying to go elsewhere.
Sai: Yeah, fuck off please!
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laughter
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Sai: Now, Bit, can you please point to the
back of the room?
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Yeah, not quite is it.
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This is what happens when you mess with
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someone's orientation. Please don't be that
asshole. So if you want to be helpful you
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00:31:16,340 --> 00:31:21,909
can be helpful, you can be nice. Say:
"shall I lead you back to the chairs now?"
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00:31:21,909 --> 00:31:28,020
"Would you like a hand?" They hold you,
you don't hold them, and then you can lead
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00:31:28,020 --> 00:31:46,280
them back to the chairs. There we go. Have
a seat. May I have my blindfold back?
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00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:52,860
Bit: Yeah.
Sai: You can tell this is improvised. And
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00:31:52,860 --> 00:32:01,970
here I am again walking without my cane on
the crack. So it's not just a party trick,
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00:32:01,970 --> 00:32:05,776
as I'll show in a sec. Next.
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00:32:13,954 --> 00:32:20,540
Yeah, right.
So, some of you may have the response of
291
00:32:20,540 --> 00:32:37,320
thinking, "oh wow Sai can walk across the
stage, or talk or make decisions". I wish
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00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:44,320
I were kidding but that does happen pretty
regularly. Can we clear the stuff off the
293
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:55,510
stage, please? So instead of that, I'd
like to show you something that actually
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00:32:55,510 --> 00:33:07,750
does involve a little bit of skill. Namely
about a decade worth of aikido. For those
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00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:15,150
of you who don't know, aikido is a martial
art from Japan. Anne?
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00:33:15,150 --> 00:33:24,630
Anne: Yes!
Sai: So I've spent about five years or so
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00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:37,340
learning to use a cane. Anne has spent
well more than that doing aikido and is a
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second degree black belt. I am not!
However I'm wearing a blindfold and she is
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00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:54,690
not. So what I want to demonstrate for you
is how I can tell that she's about to grab
300
00:33:54,690 --> 00:34:02,820
my hand. So there is the sound of the feet
on the ground making this sort of sound.
301
00:34:02,820 --> 00:34:08,119
There is the hand approaching me,
the wind,
302
00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:12,569
there the vibration as
her hips sort of rotate
303
00:34:12,569 --> 00:34:17,709
towards me with my slow fist attempt here.
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00:34:17,709 --> 00:34:20,169
There I can tell she's
starting to lean back,
305
00:34:20,169 --> 00:34:23,692
and there, I put her to the ground.
306
00:34:26,570 --> 00:34:27,964
Again!
307
00:34:29,135 --> 00:34:33,149
So sound, movement, air flow, heat.
308
00:34:33,149 --> 00:34:40,830
Here is a nice little head, vibration,
wrist, the crook of the wrist.
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00:34:43,922 --> 00:34:46,169
Full speed!
310
00:34:52,069 --> 00:35:02,180
So the blindfold hasn't come off. This
isn't magic. And again I'm not Daredevil.
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00:35:02,180 --> 00:35:10,869
I just can't see. I didn't get extra super
special securing powers. My hearings is
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00:35:10,869 --> 00:35:15,869
pretty good but it's no better than the
average person - I'm - it's actually a
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00:35:15,869 --> 00:35:23,960
lot worse in the rain. So that thing it
isn't really a thing. So just to prove
314
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:34,420
that it doesn't just work in this sort of
deliberately set up special thing, Anne is
315
00:35:34,420 --> 00:35:39,709
going to just attack me, however she
wants, and I'm going to
316
00:35:39,709 --> 00:35:41,097
throw her around a bit.
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00:35:41,868 --> 00:35:42,868
laughter
318
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,411
Note that I can still focus on her.
319
00:36:03,424 --> 00:36:05,383
I can still pin her if I want.
320
00:36:06,632 --> 00:36:07,716
laughs
321
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,572
laughter
322
00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:24,320
applause
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00:37:13,908 --> 00:37:19,558
applause
324
00:37:22,100 --> 00:37:27,579
And no, I didn't tell them what to do in
advance. That's real. Yes, I am a little
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00:37:27,579 --> 00:37:40,969
bit out of breath. It's been a while since
I actually exercised. Well and again I'm
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00:37:40,969 --> 00:37:49,440
still facing you, right? I haven't
forgotten where this line is. Between the
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00:37:49,440 --> 00:38:02,900
wood and the carpet, and in fact I can
knock it with my ring. Sometimes against
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00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:11,960
the wall is a little better to generate a
nice echo sound. So if you want to not be
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00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:26,249
an asshole, please remember, first off,
ask! I may not want your help, or need it,
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00:38:26,249 --> 00:38:33,380
and what you think may be helpful to me,
maybe, probably is, completely wrong. So
331
00:38:33,380 --> 00:38:40,619
listen to what I say and if I say, "yeah I
would like you to please, lead me to X."
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00:38:40,619 --> 00:38:47,739
That does not mean grab my arm and start
dragging me to X. I prefer to follow
333
00:38:47,739 --> 00:38:52,930
people by sounds so I'm just going to tell
you to scuff your feet when you walk,
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00:38:52,930 --> 00:38:59,979
scuffing
so I can follow you by sound, or to just
335
00:38:59,979 --> 00:39:12,499
keep talking. Some people do prefer to
follow by hand. Bit? So if it comes up and
336
00:39:12,499 --> 00:39:26,119
I want directions to the stage center,
lead me to say center, please. Ta da! Not
337
00:39:26,119 --> 00:39:37,789
that hard. If you are going to touch
someone like here, unless you know you've
338
00:39:37,789 --> 00:39:43,170
invited them to attack you because you're
going to do an aikido exercise, don't just
339
00:39:43,170 --> 00:39:51,619
randomly grab them and yank them around.
Touch them, say "hi my name is Sai, would
340
00:39:51,619 --> 00:39:55,650
you like some help?"
Bit: Hi Sai, I would. Thank you very much.
341
00:39:55,650 --> 00:40:00,079
And then you can offer, or you can say:
"what would you like." "Are you lost."
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00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:05,609
Bit: Actually I'd like to go to your place
thanks.
343
00:40:05,609 --> 00:40:12,359
Sai: Maybe later.
laughter
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00:40:12,359 --> 00:40:21,869
And one important thing to note. When
people do simulations of disabilities,
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they sometimes try to do it by just
pretending to be blind, or pretending to
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00:40:32,500 --> 00:40:37,779
be in a wheelchair, or something. Like you
sit in a wheelchair for a day, and then
347
00:40:37,779 --> 00:40:44,339
you think, oh it must be so hard to be in
a wheelchair, because my arms hurt so
348
00:40:44,339 --> 00:40:50,739
much, and I couldn't figure out how to get
to the second floor. That's because you've
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00:40:50,739 --> 00:40:55,859
done it for a day and someone who actually
uses a wheelchair has done it for probably
350
00:40:55,859 --> 00:41:00,989
years and years and years and has much
better arms than you do. And they know
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00:41:00,989 --> 00:41:08,259
where everything is, and they know how to
get around. Similarly, I know how to get
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00:41:08,259 --> 00:41:19,700
around without using my eyes. You don't.
If you just try to put a blindfold on and
353
00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:25,839
grab a cane, or let alone those blind
experience museums where they just put a
354
00:41:25,839 --> 00:41:30,249
blindfold on you, and don't give you a
cane, and have you walk around. I actually
355
00:41:30,249 --> 00:41:36,600
went to one once and they wanted to take
my cane away from me? Like hell no. That
356
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:46,420
ain't happening. I actually lent it to my
partner so that my partner could not feel
357
00:41:46,420 --> 00:41:52,119
afraid of the surroundings of accidentally
walking into something or accidentally
358
00:41:52,119 --> 00:42:02,769
walking off - not a stage, but off a step
or something. So you don't know what you
359
00:42:02,769 --> 00:42:08,539
dont know. Most of the things I've showed
you in this talk you probably have never
360
00:42:08,539 --> 00:42:15,390
realized that there even a thing. Like
have you noticed how many different
361
00:42:15,390 --> 00:42:23,070
floorings there are in the mess hall? How
many different textures there are? How
362
00:42:23,070 --> 00:42:33,309
many different sounds there are, smells,
the wind, the ceiling heights. You
363
00:42:33,309 --> 00:42:40,199
probably don't pay attention to that. I do
and without the experience you're just not
364
00:42:40,199 --> 00:42:50,839
going to be able to learn that. That said,
I am teaching workshops. You're welcome to
365
00:42:50,839 --> 00:42:54,819
come to them if I saw the energy to run
them. One is going to be right after this
366
00:42:54,819 --> 00:43:01,759
talk and the rest to be determined. My
volunteers: can you please come up on
367
00:43:01,759 --> 00:43:10,680
stage if you're willing to be on camera.
This talk is complicated if you ask the
368
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:21,430
35C3 content crew and the VOC crew and
everyone else. Kind of a pain to run
369
00:43:21,430 --> 00:43:28,020
something like this because I'm doing
stereo recording. That doesn't affect you
370
00:43:28,020 --> 00:43:34,039
in the audience live because the PAs are
mono, but hopefully those of you listening
371
00:43:34,039 --> 00:43:39,949
at home you've been listening to this with
stereo headphones on, and hopefully you'll
372
00:43:39,949 --> 00:43:44,640
hear it from my perspective what it's like
when I crack the cane, and you can hear
373
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,210
the echo in the room.
374
00:43:47,210 --> 00:43:53,250
So thank you very much. Thank you very
much. Take a bow, please!
375
00:43:53,250 --> 00:44:03,390
applause
376
00:44:03,390 --> 00:44:08,889
Herald: Thank you Sai for a very
interesting talk! Questions?
377
00:44:08,889 --> 00:44:15,630
Sai: Can we have the Q&A slide please? So
if you have questions, and you're okay
378
00:44:15,630 --> 00:44:21,739
with being on camera, and possibly being
asked to come on stage so I can answer
379
00:44:21,739 --> 00:44:25,289
your question depending on what your
question is, please queue up to the camera
380
00:44:25,289 --> 00:44:29,410
that's on stage right. Otherwise there's
cameras or there's microphones...
381
00:44:29,410 --> 00:44:32,769
Herald: ...we can also do just plain
questions. If you don't want to come on
382
00:44:32,769 --> 00:44:37,359
stage, you can just answer questions from
any one of the four microphones in the room.
383
00:44:37,359 --> 00:44:39,179
Sai: Bit?
384
00:44:42,269 --> 00:44:44,529
So first question from
microphone number 2.
385
00:44:44,529 --> 00:44:48,719
Sai: Which one is 2?
Herald: It's for that person asking.
386
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,500
Sai: Which one is the...
Herald: Sorry?
387
00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:55,420
Sai: Which one is the one on stage right.
Can I ask them on stage.
388
00:44:55,420 --> 00:44:58,059
Herald: Oh let's see if they want to come
on stage.
389
00:44:58,059 --> 00:45:01,989
Sai: Which number? Microphone number two
is...
390
00:45:01,989 --> 00:45:05,049
Herald: Number two is the microphone - you
want to come on stage?
391
00:45:05,049 --> 00:45:07,940
Question: Yeah, sure.
Sai: I just want to know if...
392
00:45:07,940 --> 00:45:13,829
Bit: Microphone #2 is in front of you in
the aisle, #3 behind there. #1 left on the
393
00:45:13,829 --> 00:45:18,559
aisle, and #4 right.
Sai: So it goes to number four if you're
394
00:45:18,559 --> 00:45:20,859
willing to get on camera.
Herald: So the question is right here.
395
00:45:20,859 --> 00:45:27,259
Sai: Can you please bring me my canes?
Question: Thank you for the really
396
00:45:27,259 --> 00:45:28,819
impressive talk.
Sai: Thank you.
397
00:45:28,819 --> 00:45:34,700
Question: My question is the following. So
when - I want to know how your imagination
398
00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:40,799
works. So when someone says, imagine a
box, what's that you think of. Is that the
399
00:45:40,799 --> 00:45:47,019
material or how it sounds, how it feels,
just how does it work.
400
00:45:47,019 --> 00:45:54,430
Sai: Well there I would actually go to my
kind of psychology talk that I gave a
401
00:45:54,430 --> 00:46:03,269
27C3, and a box is a category, theoretic
concept that has a prototype, possibly.
402
00:46:03,269 --> 00:46:14,219
It's like asking: imagine a furniture.
Hhm. Imagine a box! What kind of box? Is a
403
00:46:14,219 --> 00:46:20,690
shipping box? Is it a box of mate that are
those little crates that I walk into etc.
404
00:46:20,690 --> 00:46:29,099
There are all different kinds of boxes. Is
it an elevator? Yeah I don't know how to
405
00:46:29,099 --> 00:46:31,930
answer that kind of question.
Question: So maybe I got that incorrect,
406
00:46:31,930 --> 00:46:37,969
but what I want to say is that when they
try to think of something I had no idea
407
00:46:37,969 --> 00:46:44,509
and you project plan, or etc. I imagine
how it looks. So how I am at a certain
408
00:46:44,509 --> 00:46:50,390
place or how I, for example, see a box if
someone's talking about the box. So my
409
00:46:50,390 --> 00:46:55,989
brain works like visually creating visual
pictures. So I was interested in how that
410
00:46:55,989 --> 00:46:59,759
works for blind people.
Sai: Well, that depends on the blind
411
00:46:59,759 --> 00:47:09,249
person, I have - I've never really had a
visual thought process. So when I've
412
00:47:09,249 --> 00:47:14,670
talked to people and asked them what is it
like to think for you? So if people in the
413
00:47:14,670 --> 00:47:21,349
audience, think about this, if you're
imagining like what you did over the last
414
00:47:21,349 --> 00:47:33,770
day - try it - okay. Many people here feel
that as sort of a quasi audio monologue.
415
00:47:33,770 --> 00:47:41,439
That's like a voice in their head, except
it's their voice, it's not other voices.
416
00:47:41,439 --> 00:47:48,130
Many people have it, like you have it, a
sort of visual experience. Some people
417
00:47:48,130 --> 00:47:55,880
have it as scrolling text. Can I get a
clap for anyone who has their thoughts as
418
00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:03,449
text? Anyone? No? Okay. Like two or three
people who have that. For me it's purely
419
00:48:03,449 --> 00:48:08,539
abstract. But if I wanted to think of a
box, yes I can think of a box. I can
420
00:48:08,539 --> 00:48:14,259
imagine it visually, I can imagine what it
feels like, etc. Also please remember I
421
00:48:14,259 --> 00:48:23,920
can see in dark light. I can't see here
because - even looking up is painful with
422
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,189
my eyes closed under this blindfold. There
is enough light coming through that it
423
00:48:28,189 --> 00:48:34,029
hurts. I definitely would not be able to
open my eyes and I could take my blindfold
424
00:48:34,029 --> 00:48:40,200
off temporarily but that was because I was
willing to tolerate some pain. So if it's
425
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:46,710
a dark room then I can see just fine.
Herald: The next question is from the
426
00:48:46,710 --> 00:48:48,769
Internet so they won't be able to go on
stage.
427
00:48:48,769 --> 00:48:51,730
Sai: Yes, the internet!
Question: How do you feel about
428
00:48:51,730 --> 00:48:59,019
the app Be My Eyes.
Sai: Be My Eyes. It's actually not bad.
429
00:48:59,019 --> 00:49:11,559
There's Be My Eyes, TapTapSee, BeSpecular,
several for iPhone which I've never used
430
00:49:11,559 --> 00:49:17,180
because I've got an Android. Though
iPhone, for what it's worth has, and Mac
431
00:49:17,180 --> 00:49:23,420
products in general, have really excellent
support for blind people. TapTapSee is
432
00:49:23,420 --> 00:49:30,880
useful. It's not as useful for me because
at home, like if I want to identify a can
433
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:37,869
of soup or whatever, I will just look at
it with the lights down, so I can see it
434
00:49:37,869 --> 00:49:44,829
myself. And it's too much of a pain to use
if I'm out, like if I'm grocery shopping.
435
00:49:44,829 --> 00:49:51,359
That's something that's a real pain to do
and an accessibility issue. For those of
436
00:49:51,359 --> 00:50:03,630
you thinking about such things: if you
only support the operation search or the
437
00:50:03,630 --> 00:50:11,880
operation look up and say I walk into a
grocery store - which I have done - yeah,
438
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:16,839
shocking. And they come up to me and say,
hey how can I help you, what do you want.
439
00:50:16,839 --> 00:50:23,209
I say well I don't know what I want. What
do you have. I would like a savory snack
440
00:50:23,209 --> 00:50:32,670
that's vegetarian. What do you have. Well
what do you want. Name it. And if I name
441
00:50:32,670 --> 00:50:38,829
it they'll get it from me but I don't
know, especially if I'm in Germany. I have
442
00:50:38,829 --> 00:50:47,109
no idea what they sell here yet they still
ask me. So browsing is much harder and
443
00:50:47,109 --> 00:50:52,279
with TapTapSee and with Be My Eyes and so
forth, it's really for identifying a
444
00:50:52,279 --> 00:50:59,630
specific object. One thing that you may
not be used to here but in more barbaric
445
00:50:59,630 --> 00:51:05,869
countries, all the paper currency is the
same size and has no distinguishing
446
00:51:05,869 --> 00:51:12,569
features. Except for the next print run,
because the American Federation for the
447
00:51:12,569 --> 00:51:17,740
Blind sued the U.S. Treasury and won. So
the next generation of bills except for
448
00:51:17,740 --> 00:51:21,839
the one dollar note which the Treasury is
not allowed to change by law,
449
00:51:21,839 --> 00:51:25,579
laughter
the next generation will have blind
450
00:51:25,579 --> 00:51:30,739
accessibility features. Here, they have
different sizes. If you feel your euros
451
00:51:30,739 --> 00:51:38,380
they have a little strip on the edge of
them. And some versions of them have
452
00:51:38,380 --> 00:51:44,019
little braille dots that you can tell what
they are. So that's that's not as bad
453
00:51:44,019 --> 00:51:50,209
here. Be My Eyes is more useful for
someone who's blind at home as well. But
454
00:51:50,209 --> 00:51:53,660
it's a great app!
Herald: Another question from microphone 4
455
00:51:53,660 --> 00:51:56,809
that's to the right of the stage. They can
ask from there, but if they want to come
456
00:51:56,809 --> 00:51:57,809
up...
Sai: Thank you!
457
00:51:57,809 --> 00:52:00,390
Herald: Do you want to come up?
Sai: Ask first!
458
00:52:00,390 --> 00:52:05,319
Herald: I'm going to - sorry for all
the...
459
00:52:05,319 --> 00:52:12,349
Question: So it was very impressive how
you pick up on all the these things that
460
00:52:12,349 --> 00:52:18,510
like, I normally don't. So I was really
curious when you meet a new person. What
461
00:52:18,510 --> 00:52:22,439
do you pick up. What do you pickup about
them. Like how do you assess the person.
462
00:52:22,439 --> 00:52:28,489
How do you know they're like interesting,
attractive, like how do you.... Because I
463
00:52:28,489 --> 00:52:33,079
use visual cues for that.
Sai: So I'm going to answer you assuming
464
00:52:33,079 --> 00:52:42,539
that I'm blind at the time. If they come
up to me and say "how much can you see?"
465
00:52:42,539 --> 00:52:46,449
then they're probably not a person I want
to continue interacting with.
466
00:52:46,449 --> 00:52:50,449
laughter
If there is someone who comes up to me,
467
00:52:50,449 --> 00:52:54,549
they've read my shirt about all sorts of
different things that we can have a
468
00:52:54,549 --> 00:53:00,689
conversation about that's substantive, and
they say: "hey how would you like to
469
00:53:00,689 --> 00:53:05,920
implement liquid democracy", or "how do
you make a non-linear writing system", or
470
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:12,011
something like that. Then they're more
likely an interesting person or they
471
00:53:12,011 --> 00:53:20,329
introduce themselves and are nice. How do
you evaluate people? Like, you can't value
472
00:53:20,329 --> 00:53:28,579
them just by what they look like. I can
tell your age and your approximate gender,
473
00:53:28,579 --> 00:53:38,150
and your approximate place that you were
raised linguistically, and if you were at
474
00:53:38,150 --> 00:53:43,619
the same floor level, I can tell your
height. I can probably tell roughly your
475
00:53:43,619 --> 00:53:50,440
weight just from your heat, your - the
sound of your voice, the amount of
476
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,009
pressure that you're making on the floor -
depending on what kind of floor it is,
477
00:53:53,009 --> 00:53:58,539
like if it's the stone out in the Messe,
I'm not going to get anything from that.
478
00:53:58,539 --> 00:54:03,890
Yeah blind people can be racist too if
that's what you're thinking.
479
00:54:03,890 --> 00:54:07,089
laughter
Everybody can be racist.
480
00:54:07,089 --> 00:54:14,709
singing We're all a little bit racist.
Yeah same way anyone else!
481
00:54:14,709 --> 00:54:18,849
Herald: So we will do one last question
for microphone number two, that's center
482
00:54:18,849 --> 00:54:22,749
aisle.
Question: So thank you for your talk. I
483
00:54:22,749 --> 00:54:27,699
think that was very inspiring. I was
wondering, most of the methods you showed
484
00:54:27,699 --> 00:54:32,989
where rather analogue. So have you also
tried something like maybe a smart cane so
485
00:54:32,989 --> 00:54:37,930
you have some more technical approach to
detecting surfaces and obstacles, or other
486
00:54:37,930 --> 00:54:40,650
things, and what's your experience with
this kind of thing?
487
00:54:40,650 --> 00:54:44,069
Sai: Hopefully my slide is still up there,
where it says I'd be interested in
488
00:54:44,069 --> 00:54:51,759
collaborating on that. Eric Boyd at
SenseBridge of NoiseBridge, where I used
489
00:54:51,759 --> 00:54:59,339
to be, made a nice anklet called the
NorthPaw, which is basically a series of
490
00:54:59,339 --> 00:55:06,849
pager buzzers that vibrate to point to
which way is north. I sadly broke mine,
491
00:55:06,849 --> 00:55:12,650
and if any of you have a working one, I
would really like to have it! Absolute
492
00:55:12,650 --> 00:55:17,089
orientation is really difficult. So
relative orientation, like what I was
493
00:55:17,089 --> 00:55:22,880
doing with the aikido, I can tell like
where someone is. I can focus on them but
494
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:31,099
then it's easy to lose track of which way
you're facing. So something like that is
495
00:55:31,099 --> 00:55:41,059
quite useful. There are some products that
do this on demand. So I forget what it is
496
00:55:41,059 --> 00:55:48,069
called, but the LHZ Dresden had this
product, which is a tactile feedback
497
00:55:48,069 --> 00:55:54,349
compass and clock. So if you click it and
it will vibrate in different ways to tell
498
00:55:54,349 --> 00:56:02,710
you which way you're facing. That's - it
doesn't really work very well. What you
499
00:56:02,710 --> 00:56:08,519
would want is something continuous. I've
heard of canes where they've like attached
500
00:56:08,519 --> 00:56:17,390
a camera to either the cane or to the to
the grip, and it beeps or something when
501
00:56:17,390 --> 00:56:24,509
there's something there. I've never used
one, so I can't comment on that directly
502
00:56:24,509 --> 00:56:30,930
but from blind friends, who told me about
experiences with them, they tend to be
503
00:56:30,930 --> 00:56:36,140
engineered by sighted people who have no
idea what it's like to be blind. That
504
00:56:36,140 --> 00:56:45,569
said, it is true that tree branches are a
real obstacle, because if I try to sweep
505
00:56:45,569 --> 00:56:52,740
something and something is above this
height like a tree branch at about this
506
00:56:52,740 --> 00:57:01,619
height or a metal sign like in Boston or
D.C. or New York, or well really anywhere
507
00:57:01,619 --> 00:57:07,099
in the U.S. Not so much in London, they're
pretty good about that except for the one
508
00:57:07,099 --> 00:57:10,140
time I walked into a government building
and there was a monitor affixed to the
509
00:57:10,140 --> 00:57:13,019
wall at this height.
indicates height of his head
510
00:57:13,019 --> 00:57:17,469
I cleared the column, hit the column. I
knew there was a column there and I was
511
00:57:17,469 --> 00:57:23,959
just walking past the column and walked
smack into the monitor. This was in a
512
00:57:23,959 --> 00:57:28,710
government building, sadly. But usually
they're pretty good about it and I haven't
513
00:57:28,710 --> 00:57:37,029
found any like that here. But trees,
there's always trees. Bus stops often have
514
00:57:37,029 --> 00:57:42,079
sort of the the sign on on the side,
right? And there is like this gap that
515
00:57:42,079 --> 00:57:44,319
might be this high
indicates knee hight
516
00:57:44,319 --> 00:57:49,440
because I have a fairly long cane. Canes
are usually anywhere between sternum and
517
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:55,949
nose. And mine is just at the edge of my
nose. If I'm standing up tall. It's quite
518
00:57:55,949 --> 00:58:02,170
long because I walk really fast. So mine
has a lower angle and that means that it's
519
00:58:02,170 --> 00:58:08,849
more likely to go under that and then I'll
hit it like here when I'm almost at it.
520
00:58:08,849 --> 00:58:16,039
Tangles up my cane, it's kind of a pain.
Yeah. So it's possible that something that
521
00:58:16,039 --> 00:58:22,829
detects a higher range will be useful. One
thing that I'm specifically interested
522
00:58:22,829 --> 00:58:29,079
because it's something I'm bad at, is
absolute orientation. So if you are an
523
00:58:29,079 --> 00:58:39,219
engineer or a hacker who is interested in
collaborating on something like putting
524
00:58:39,219 --> 00:58:46,160
things in the cane grip or in a hat or on
the side of eyeglasses or something like
525
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:52,930
that, that would tell me which way is
north, constantly, please get in touch. Or
526
00:58:52,930 --> 00:58:59,229
for that matter if you can make glasses
that will take standard lenses and have
527
00:58:59,229 --> 00:59:05,519
zero light leakage, please get in touch.
Because it turns out there aren't any such
528
00:59:05,519 --> 00:59:11,269
frames on the market for some reason.
That's the technology.
529
00:59:11,269 --> 00:59:17,211
Thank you very much!
Herald: I think we're out of time.
530
00:59:17,211 --> 00:59:19,893
Thank you Sai for a very interesting talk,
big round of applause.
531
00:59:19,893 --> 00:59:23,839
applause
532
00:59:28,651 --> 00:59:31,854
postroll music
533
00:59:31,854 --> 00:59:52,000
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