0:00:09.255,0:00:10.600
FRED WILSON:[br]Everything I want to say

0:00:10.600,0:00:12.855
is said by putting[br]things together.

0:00:13.080,0:00:15.280
In my studio, I was always,[br]like, arranging things.

0:00:15.280,0:00:16.480
You know, this is[br]right out of school.

0:00:16.480,0:00:20.400
I was, like, I couldn't sort[br]of say that this was my art.

0:00:20.400,0:00:22.400
It wasn't art[br]with a capital A.

0:00:22.400,0:00:24.416
But it was really who I was.

0:00:26.850,0:00:30.280
— Um... why don't we switch[br]this back for that...

0:00:30.280,0:00:32.000
that figure,[br]the original figure?

0:00:32.000,0:00:33.134
MAN:[br]Yeah.

0:00:33.760,0:00:35.720
WILSON:[br]And when you start doing

0:00:35.720,0:00:37.595
what you really,[br]really believe in,

0:00:37.595,0:00:39.758
that's when you do[br]your best work.

0:00:44.600,0:00:47.501
I did all these pieces with, uh...

0:00:47.501,0:00:51.730
these weird tchotchkes, [br]these so-called "black collectibles."

0:00:52.000,0:00:53.640
This one actually[br]was given to me,

0:00:53.640,0:00:56.454
so now I'm trying to make[br]one big piece

0:00:57.040,0:00:58.960
with as many of them as possible[br]and get them out of my life.

0:00:58.960,0:01:00.803
It's just sort of bad juju.

0:01:04.160,0:01:07.960
WILSON: I really don't have any desire[br]to make things with my hands,

0:01:07.960,0:01:09.280
particularly directly.

0:01:09.280,0:01:11.000
I don't know[br]when I left that behind,

0:01:11.000,0:01:14.960
but I get everything[br]that satisfies my soul

0:01:14.960,0:01:17.120
from bringing objects[br]that are in the world

0:01:17.120,0:01:18.280
and manipulating them,

0:01:18.280,0:01:20.800
working with spatial[br]rela... arrangements.

0:01:20.800,0:01:24.834
And then having things produced[br]the way I want to see them.

0:01:25.720,0:01:26.680
I love making this stuff.

0:01:26.680,0:01:27.520
I love doing it.

0:01:27.520,0:01:29.280
And it's not easy[br]in that it's simple,

0:01:29.280,0:01:31.784
but it's easy[br]in that it just flows out of me.

0:01:32.280,0:01:34.500
— This is... that's[br]just the worst one.

0:01:46.171,0:01:47.320
WILSON:[br]I'm totally inspired

0:01:47.320,0:01:48.520
by things around me.

0:01:48.520,0:01:51.558
I look at things and wonder[br]what they are and why they are.

0:01:54.532,0:01:55.480
Everything interests me.

0:01:55.480,0:01:57.200
You know, a gum wrapper[br]could interest me

0:01:57.200,0:01:59.840
as much as something,[br]you know, at The Met.

0:02:00.880,0:02:04.000
As I get older,[br]I realize that your identity

0:02:04.000,0:02:06.520
is really tied largely[br]to your experiences

0:02:06.520,0:02:08.444
and that time period[br]that you grew up.

0:02:09.120,0:02:10.520
I was born in the '50s.

0:02:10.520,0:02:12.080
I grew up in the suburbs.

0:02:12.080,0:02:13.480
When I was[br]elementary school age,

0:02:13.480,0:02:17.120
I was the only black child[br]in the entire school

0:02:17.120,0:02:21.030
and I was shunned[br]because I was different.

0:02:22.720,0:02:24.880
My world was not...[br]even though it seemed

0:02:24.880,0:02:27.581
like everything was nice,[br]I didn't have any friends.

0:02:28.640,0:02:31.160
My connection[br]to the black community

0:02:31.160,0:02:33.902
was tangential[br]for those formative years.

0:02:34.240,0:02:36.640
So a lot of my project[br]is trying to understand

0:02:36.640,0:02:38.920
the visual world around me[br]which really affects me.

0:02:38.920,0:02:40.800
— Hold it--[br]yeah, that's about right.

0:02:41.760,0:02:44.360
WILSON: For me, that's the basis[br]for a lot of what I do,

0:02:44.360,0:02:46.568
is really where[br]that pain comes from.

0:02:48.280,0:02:50.570
My mother married[br]an African-American man.

0:02:50.840,0:02:55.440
Her sister married a man from,[br]um... from the West Indies

0:02:55.440,0:02:57.112
and then a man from Belgium.

0:02:57.720,0:03:00.080
And when her other sister[br]married a man from India

0:03:00.080,0:03:02.160
and her cousin married[br]a man from China,

0:03:02.160,0:03:04.600
it's difficult for me to not[br]look at people in the world

0:03:04.600,0:03:06.080
and see everyone as a relative.

0:03:06.080,0:03:07.720
To me, they're familiar--

0:03:07.720,0:03:10.640
familiar in the root[br]of the word: family, familiar.

0:03:10.640,0:03:12.901
I feel comfortable with people,

0:03:14.760,0:03:17.560
but that comfort is, uh,[br]tempered by the fact

0:03:17.560,0:03:19.701
that people may not feel[br]that way about me.

0:03:23.103,0:03:24.195
When I watch glassblowing,

0:03:24.195,0:03:27.080
it's like the creation[br]of a planet or something.

0:03:27.080,0:03:30.098
You get seduced by the material,[br]by the process.

0:03:32.922,0:03:35.418
[ hammer banging ]

0:03:37.680,0:03:41.319
And then you almost don't care[br]what it looks like afterwards.

0:03:42.270,0:03:44.722
— You know what? I'm going to stand right here,[br]because this way

0:03:44.722,0:03:47.616
I get the same angle[br]as the slide.

0:03:49.532,0:03:50.920
WILSON:[br]Glass is always a liquid.

0:03:50.920,0:03:53.480
It never completely solidifies.

0:03:53.480,0:03:55.560
Even though it looks[br]like it's solid,

0:03:55.560,0:03:57.134
it actually is still moving.

0:03:57.489,0:03:59.960
[ hammer banging ]

0:03:59.960,0:04:02.640
And so making it[br]into these drip forms

0:04:02.640,0:04:05.000
makes inherent sense[br]for the material.

0:04:06.440,0:04:10.600
And I wanted to use black glass[br]because it represents ink.

0:04:10.600,0:04:13.880
It represents oil;[br]it represents tar.

0:04:15.480,0:04:17.400
Some of them have eyes on them.

0:04:17.400,0:04:22.080
For me, these, uh, cartoon eyes,[br]because of 1930s cartoons,

0:04:22.080,0:04:24.960
which were recycled[br]in my childhood in the '60s,

0:04:24.960,0:04:27.480
were representing[br]African Americans

0:04:27.480,0:04:29.334
in a very derogatory way.

0:04:32.440,0:04:34.960
I sort of view them[br]as black tears.

0:04:34.960,0:04:38.982
So that to me is ultimately[br]a sad commentary.

0:04:44.840,0:04:48.600
Working with printmaking is very[br]similar to working with glass

0:04:48.600,0:04:51.644
in that it's outside[br]of what I do.

0:04:56.308,0:04:59.280
In printmaking[br]I realized that if I...

0:04:59.280,0:05:03.000
I could just drop acid...[br][ laughs ]

0:05:03.000,0:05:04.760
with this stuff called Spitbite,

0:05:04.760,0:05:08.840
just pour it onto a plate[br]and it would eat onto the plate

0:05:08.840,0:05:11.441
and it would, you know, kind[br]of make a spot or a splash

0:05:12.095,0:05:15.480
and filling it with black ink,

0:05:15.480,0:05:17.520
it sort of retains[br]this spot quality,

0:05:17.520,0:05:19.480
and it also has kind of[br]a three-dimensional quality

0:05:19.480,0:05:20.480
which doesn't happen

0:05:20.480,0:05:22.934
when you use ink[br]on a piece of paper.

0:05:22.934,0:05:25.822
[ acid dripping ]

0:05:25.822,0:05:28.280
The directness of that[br]really thrilled me,

0:05:28.280,0:05:29.520
and the fact that that's[br]what I'm interested in--

0:05:29.520,0:05:33.642
these drips and drops--[br]uh, really worked for me.

0:05:39.320,0:05:40.773
— Yeah, that's[br]doing fine.

0:05:59.136,0:06:01.360
WILSON:[br]Even before I did the drips,

0:06:01.360,0:06:02.120
uh, in glass,

0:06:02.120,0:06:03.840
I'd been thinking about spots

0:06:03.840,0:06:07.680
and just this, uh,[br]reduction of blackness

0:06:07.680,0:06:09.960
to this kind[br]of ridiculous degree.

0:06:09.960,0:06:11.600
You know, I think it's[br]interesting, I think it's funny,

0:06:11.600,0:06:13.439
I think it's[br]ultimately really sad.

0:06:14.520,0:06:17.840
All these representations[br]that I grew up with

0:06:17.840,0:06:21.136
are telling me who I am[br]whether I realize it or not.

0:06:22.240,0:06:25.280
And so by pulling them all out[br]and have them talk to each other

0:06:25.280,0:06:27.400
is my sort of[br]taking control of who I am

0:06:27.400,0:06:29.000
through these voices.

0:06:29.000,0:06:31.040
And also trying to understand[br]who I am,

0:06:31.040,0:06:32.520
what is me and what is something

0:06:32.520,0:06:34.534
that the rest of the world[br]has said I am.

0:06:38.400,0:06:41.369
You know, it comes from this[br]deep sadness that I, you know...

0:06:42.360,0:06:45.000
that, uh... that's[br]kind of the baseline.

0:06:45.000,0:06:47.473
I'm not a sad person,[br]but...

0:06:48.374,0:06:51.012
you know, it[br]it bubbles up inside of me.

0:06:58.560,0:07:00.456
PRINTER:[br]That's starting to look better.

0:07:00.748,0:07:01.840
WILSON:[br]Yeah.

0:07:01.840,0:07:03.100
— Ooh, nice.

0:07:04.024,0:07:04.880
WILSON:[br]There are these, like,

0:07:04.880,0:07:06.400
in cartoons, thought bubbles

0:07:06.400,0:07:09.280
where the spots drop,[br]talk to each other

0:07:09.280,0:07:11.800
and various conversations emerge

0:07:11.800,0:07:13.851
from the relationship[br]between these spots.

0:07:15.000,0:07:15.880
To me it made sense

0:07:15.880,0:07:18.440
that the representations[br]of Africans in books

0:07:18.440,0:07:20.400
would be the voices[br]for these representations

0:07:20.400,0:07:23.600
of blackness or of black people[br]in these spots.

0:07:23.600,0:07:24.720
And so they all[br]talk to each other

0:07:24.720,0:07:26.320
and these different characters,[br]they're kind of...

0:07:26.320,0:07:30.160
the voices and personalities[br]come out in...

0:07:30.160,0:07:32.961
from these little blurbs.

0:07:33.840,0:07:37.880
I was thrilled to be chosen[br]to represent the United States

0:07:37.880,0:07:39.494
for the Venice Biennale.

0:07:40.080,0:07:45.080
The work in Venice had[br]many different parts.

0:07:45.080,0:07:47.960
And the part that is[br]the most abstract

0:07:47.960,0:07:51.627
was this room that I created[br]of black and white tile.

0:07:52.280,0:07:55.960
There was this huge black urn[br]on its side

0:07:55.960,0:07:58.760
and in it was a small bed,

0:07:58.760,0:08:02.360
uh, cappuccino cup,[br]some newspapers, magazines,

0:08:02.360,0:08:04.444
um, CD player.

0:08:05.120,0:08:08.720
I did those pieces[br]right after September 11th,

0:08:08.720,0:08:11.680
wanting the world to go back[br]to the way it was before.

0:08:11.680,0:08:13.311
It's called "Safe Haven."

0:08:14.280,0:08:15.280
Right around that time,

0:08:15.280,0:08:16.760
my mother was getting[br]extremely ill

0:08:16.760,0:08:17.920
and was not going to get better.

0:08:17.920,0:08:20.960
So this kind of womb shape[br]that came out,

0:08:20.960,0:08:25.000
I do think it has a relationship[br]with thinking about my mom.

0:08:27.120,0:08:30.649
I'm interested in invisible[br]processes within museums.

0:08:31.280,0:08:32.960
I really start museum projects

0:08:32.960,0:08:34.600
without knowing[br]what I'm going to do.

0:08:34.600,0:08:38.720
I try to just go in,[br]uh, tabula rasa

0:08:38.720,0:08:41.377
and try and just[br]sort of be a sponge.

0:08:41.557,0:08:42.920
— Okay, right there.

0:08:43.618,0:08:45.040
WILSON:[br]I work site-specifically.

0:08:45.040,0:08:47.000
In Sweden I started[br]the way I'd normally start:

0:08:47.000,0:08:48.680
I meet everyone,[br]look at the collection

0:08:48.680,0:08:50.000
and talk to people[br]about the collection

0:08:50.000,0:08:51.320
and research the collection

0:08:51.320,0:08:53.720
and try to understand[br]where I am, the city I'm in

0:08:53.720,0:08:55.460
and... and... and make a piece.

0:08:55.911,0:08:56.560
— I need to get a sense

0:08:56.560,0:08:58.160
of what this floor is going[br]to look like.

0:08:58.160,0:09:00.101
The model is good,[br]but this really helps.

0:09:03.377,0:09:07.220
WILSON: I'm creating a metanarrative[br]about museums and display.

0:09:08.076,0:09:09.200
— I would like to put in

0:09:09.200,0:09:11.000
one of the platforms

0:09:11.000,0:09:13.440
so I can see how that looks[br]from different angles.

0:09:14.161,0:09:16.277
WILSON: I'm just using the museum [br]as my palette, basically--

0:09:17.200,0:09:21.160
manipulating objects, light,[br]color, spatial relationships

0:09:21.160,0:09:24.424
and, uh, critiquing as well[br]the notion of museum.

0:09:25.280,0:09:27.208
— Can you help me to take out?[br]— Yes, yes.

0:09:27.208,0:09:29.157
I'll put the gloves[br]here for a minute.

0:09:30.757,0:09:32.600
[ straining ]:[br]Oh, boy, oh, boy-- wow.

0:09:32.600,0:09:34.683
Wow, there's certainly stone in here.[br]— Yeah.

0:09:34.800,0:09:36.000
WILSON: What happens[br]with a lot of museums

0:09:36.000,0:09:38.000
is that galleries are arranged[br]by historians

0:09:38.000,0:09:40.520
who are really interested[br]in the history of the object,

0:09:40.520,0:09:44.520
the object themselves,[br]and not really so focused

0:09:44.520,0:09:47.120
on the environment[br]these are placed in,

0:09:47.120,0:09:48.240
the juxtaposition of objects

0:09:48.240,0:09:51.760
and what meaning[br]are they creating.

0:09:51.760,0:09:53.280
Besides the visual[br]of the object,

0:09:53.280,0:09:55.560
what is the visual of[br]the space doing to the object,

0:09:55.560,0:09:57.120
doing to your experience?

0:09:57.120,0:10:00.146
And sort of try to kind[br]of infuse it into those spaces.

0:10:01.520,0:10:04.160
It's not only the visual; it's[br]how this aesthetic experience

0:10:04.160,0:10:07.880
affects you emotionally[br]and physically,

0:10:07.880,0:10:10.080
and, uh, the power of that.

0:10:10.080,0:10:12.840
You know, I'm interested[br]in all that stuff.

0:10:12.840,0:10:13.880
Stones, which seem to be

0:10:13.880,0:10:17.080
the least movable objects[br]on the earth,

0:10:17.080,0:10:19.320
are moving everywhere.

0:10:19.320,0:10:23.432
The project really became not[br]only the movement of stones

0:10:24.040,0:10:25.640
and archaeological material,

0:10:25.640,0:10:27.612
but the movement of people.

0:10:30.586,0:10:33.040
The stones I'm choosing because[br]I think they're interesting

0:10:33.040,0:10:34.960
and I think they're interesting[br]in how they look together.

0:10:34.960,0:10:37.754
It's kind of[br]an archaeological site

0:10:38.520,0:10:40.520
that would never be[br]and never would be like this.

0:10:40.520,0:10:42.600
But it's just to get[br]this idea across

0:10:42.600,0:10:44.520
that these things[br]being everywhere

0:10:44.520,0:10:46.520
and that they travel[br]around the world,

0:10:46.520,0:10:48.720
people take them[br]from one place to another.

0:10:48.720,0:10:52.640
And since I found this one stone[br]from my family's island

0:10:52.640,0:10:53.680
and so I saw this connection

0:10:53.680,0:10:58.249
between how stone can kind[br]of connect to your identity.

0:10:59.760,0:11:02.520
I'm very interested[br]in juxtaposition of objects,

0:11:02.520,0:11:05.200
how juxtaposition of very[br]different objects can bring up

0:11:05.200,0:11:07.097
a new idea, a new thought.

0:11:07.480,0:11:08.960
There's no manipulation[br]of the objects

0:11:08.960,0:11:10.080
other than their positioning

0:11:10.080,0:11:12.920
and that changes the meaning,[br]or the relationship,

0:11:12.920,0:11:13.960
or how you think about them.

0:11:13.960,0:11:16.478
And this is everything[br]that I'm about.

0:11:18.280,0:11:20.240
I would like to think[br]that objects have memories,

0:11:20.240,0:11:23.534
and we have memories[br]about certain objects.

0:11:24.040,0:11:28.159
A lot of what I do is soliciting[br]memory from an object.

0:11:32.520,0:11:34.960
The other piece[br]that expresses another side

0:11:34.960,0:11:36.720
of what I've been doing[br]with museums,

0:11:36.720,0:11:38.920
the piece called[br]"Picasso/Whose Rules"

0:11:38.920,0:11:42.320
using a large photo blowup[br]of "Demoiselles d'Avignon"--

0:11:42.320,0:11:44.720
the famous painting by Picasso--

0:11:44.720,0:11:48.840
uh, an African mask and a video[br]also covers

0:11:48.840,0:11:54.680
a lot of other of my interests[br]about art, uh, modernism,

0:11:54.680,0:12:00.180
um... you know, ethnography[br]and African culture.

0:12:00.721,0:12:01.485
And when I did that,

0:12:01.485,0:12:06.440
I was feeling very strongly[br]about how modernism was a part

0:12:06.440,0:12:09.695
of the destruction[br]of traditional African culture.

0:12:11.160,0:12:14.360
When Picasso found African[br]things in the shops in France,

0:12:14.360,0:12:16.480
he saw something[br]far greater in them,

0:12:16.480,0:12:20.200
which, you know, of course[br]we're all thankful to him for.

0:12:20.200,0:12:23.640
However, neither the[br]missionaries, the military men

0:12:23.640,0:12:27.200
nor Picasso had a clue

0:12:27.200,0:12:29.200
as to what these things[br]were really about.

0:12:29.200,0:12:30.440
If you look through[br]the eyes of the mask,

0:12:30.440,0:12:34.280
there's a video of two[br]African friends and myself

0:12:34.280,0:12:38.240
speaking about[br]what makes art great.

0:12:38.240,0:12:40.680
And, um, there are a lot[br]of convoluted questions

0:12:40.680,0:12:44.680
like "If your modern art is[br]our traditional art,

0:12:44.680,0:12:48.238
does that make our[br]contemporary art your cliché?"