1
00:00:10,892 --> 00:00:17,840
NANCY SPERO: Even though I have over 500 
images in my art at this point to choose from,

2
00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:19,960
nevertheless I have what you call “stars.”

3
00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:25,773
Like stars in Hollywood, they’re appearing 
and reappearing in different roles.

4
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:32,200
Certainly the ancient Egyptians, 
the musicians, are stars.

5
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:37,920
And I had made a design with many 
of these ancient Egyptian images

6
00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,107
for this subway station here in New York City.

7
00:00:42,107 --> 00:00:45,000
See a continuum, see a procession.

8
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:50,134
Now this procession is kind 
of formalized and dance-like.

9
00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,080
Let’s say it could be for an opera.

10
00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,083
After all, this is Lincoln Center.

11
00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:05,640
I’d like to think that I have all 
layers of conceptual in the art,

12
00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,988
that it...it’s easily read.

13
00:01:09,371 --> 00:01:13,680
But on the other hand, I do 
hope that it’s more complicated

14
00:01:14,343 --> 00:01:20,647
and that it’s not just one 
easy read and then that’s it.

15
00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,840
See I have too much stuff.

16
00:01:29,204 --> 00:01:30,800
This is from about....

17
00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,560
This is a lot of years and 
many different people printing.

18
00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,341
I guess maybe my art can be said to be a protest.

19
00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:47,360
I don’t know if it’s railing against the 
world or something, but I am protesting.

20
00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,720
And as an artist, I…

21
00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:55,777
I am privileged to create in things 
the way I think that they should be,

22
00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:01,516
you know because that gets 
out my message to the world.

23
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,000
See I’m interested in messages.

24
00:02:05,568 --> 00:02:10,765
And if people want to take something 
from it, I am thrilled of course.

25
00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:20,823
The War Paintings are certainly a protest 
because it was done with indignation.

26
00:02:21,694 --> 00:02:28,680
The U.S. had gotten involved in Vietnam 
and I remember during that time,

27
00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:37,280
reading newspapers and I remember this 
terrible image of like this woman running from,

28
00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:42,501
you know from her house that had 
been set afire by helicopters.

29
00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,640
I thought of the victims in Vietnam

30
00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:50,382
and what they would think of these war machines.

31
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:58,200
And that was working on me and then 
I started painting the War series.

32
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:04,383
But I felt then that the symbol of 
the Vietnam War was the helicopter

33
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,475
and that became my primary subject matter.

34
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:18,908
I think the political came by having 
a partnership with Leon Golub.

35
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:28,529
My husband, my partner really of over 
51 years, he’s recently deceased.

36
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:37,200
Leon always had some sort of 
foot in the political in his art,

37
00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:38,901
whether it was overt or not.

38
00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:46,719
And I think that that aspect of 
his thinking influenced me a lot.

39
00:03:48,992 --> 00:03:52,457
This back and forth of ideas and discussions,

40
00:03:54,219 --> 00:03:58,906
I think that Leon’s painting is incredibly ugly,

41
00:03:59,493 --> 00:04:02,243
which makes it incredibly beautiful.

42
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,917
But the main thing is the 
power and the action in it.

43
00:04:10,588 --> 00:04:16,878
It was pretty damned difficult 
contending with someone who was so,

44
00:04:16,878 --> 00:04:22,299
not only did he do big 
paintings and fantastic ones,

45
00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:28,120
but you know what, he...he was really 
brilliant and that’s pretty hard.

46
00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,590
I had a really hard time 
contending with such a person.

47
00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,880
But I decided I, I just had to do my thing

48
00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,000
and so I started doing very small work.

49
00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:41,880
Very small work.

50
00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:46,800
Figures that are sometimes 
an inch tall or even less.

51
00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,586
Almost microscopic. And so 
in a way that’s a retort.

52
00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:59,640
And also it’s a retort to the large works 
of the mostly male New York artists.

53
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,845
Leon of course always in my mind was an exception.

54
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,919
How totally sympathetic he was to my art.

55
00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,360
Over the years the work has evolved 
from a more traditional format

56
00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:24,200
of either the rectangle or the square 
or whatever in front of one’s eyes.

57
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:31,200
And if we move our eyes, it would be 
eventually nothing there but blank wall.

58
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,849
And so I have let it continue.

59
00:05:34,834 --> 00:05:39,320
This is in Malmö, Sweden that I 
showed it, THE BLACK AND THE RED.

60
00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,760
This was an enormous room.

61
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:49,280
In seeing this huge, huge gallery, I just 
kind of took a deep breath and I put…

62
00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:52,520
I put the paper piece around in a single band.

63
00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:57,120
I continued along printing on 
the wall like a trompe l’oeil

64
00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:02,468
to reiterate the images in the printed piece.

65
00:06:04,438 --> 00:06:09,840
And when the show was over, I could 
pick up and take THE BLACK AND THE RED,

66
00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:15,600
that which was on paper, but I 
couldn’t take THE BLACK AND THE RED,

67
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,438
that had been printed on the wall.

68
00:06:19,840 --> 00:06:24,348
It’s like theater, when the 
play is over, it’s finished,

69
00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:33,545
it only stays in the memory of 
those who saw it and remember it.

70
00:06:40,667 --> 00:06:43,800
SPERO: So we’ll have a few 
on the ground, yeah. Wow.

71
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:45,680
SAM KUNTZ: ...(OVERLAP) have 
them on the ground or not?

72
00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,360
SPERO: No, no I thought we’d...maybe 
just a couple on the ground you know.

73
00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:50,960
Yeah.

74
00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,379
Ooh, that’s good.

75
00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,312
Ooh, ooh, that’s really white.

76
00:06:55,918 --> 00:06:57,563
Oops, oops, oops.

77
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:01,449
Yeah, yeah.

78
00:07:01,449 --> 00:07:05,280
SPERO: I was invited to be in the Venice Biennale.

79
00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:07,720
I thought, what in the devil am I going to do?

80
00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:13,720
And I was thinking about one of the 
paintings I had done in the War series.

81
00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,977
And in that I had done a maypole 
with bloody severed heads

82
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,280
hanging from gaily colored 
ribbons from the maypole.

83
00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,711
And finally I thought to literally make a maypole.

84
00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:36,640
So I just started working on the maypole with 
the help of Sam Kuntz and Marybeth Craig.

85
00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,080
Marybeth’s in printing the images

86
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:45,760
and so Sam has been working her part of 
the magic in transforming these heads.

87
00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:54,800
SAM: Nancy has such a facility to 
render an expressive, pained figure.

88
00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:01,080
And what’s amazing to me is that 
if you look at these carefully,

89
00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,440
they’re very small and the line 
has been drawn very quickly.

90
00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,160
And this expression is articulated perfectly.

91
00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,320
I mean and...and they’re 
all different. It’s not....

92
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,500
I mean it’s, it’s a kind of freedom that she has.

93
00:08:14,390 --> 00:08:17,120
SAM: Some of these might even have 
been done as part of the War series

94
00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,640
which would be 1966 through ’68.

95
00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:27,000
She saved some of these heads that were 
never incorporated into any of the pieces.

96
00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:32,320
And so now we’re blowing them up 
to make printing plates of polymers

97
00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,360
so that we can print a back 
on aluminum on a large scale

98
00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,318
and make these disembodied heads.

99
00:08:41,501 --> 00:08:47,061
SPERO: But I feel that the images I 
did long ago which I can’t recoup.

100
00:08:47,061 --> 00:08:52,200
You know I mean I cannot 
re-draw them, in the same way.

101
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,760
I’m on another ...I’m on 
another direction altogether.

102
00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:03,028
But I thought that I couldn’t cannibalize 
what I have done forty years ago.

103
00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:08,440
I have the idea of printing on 
the metal and then cutting it out.

104
00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:14,360
So I’ve envisioned it then that it 
would be on this metal and that maybe,

105
00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,280
I don’t know how we’re going to do this,

106
00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,480
but have a few kind of together.

107
00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,491
And so if they banged up against 
each other it would clank.

108
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:32,000
If one goes into jail for instance and hearing the 
clank of the door and there you are, you’re....

109
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,240
I mean it even leaves me breathless now,

110
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,720
thinking about that, the sound of it.

111
00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,840
And there you are.

112
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:44,840
I mean, there one is in this jail you know

113
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:51,400
and one can’t get out until that 
guy with the keys or whatever left…

114
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,160
lets you out.

115
00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,960
And, and, and so it is all of these 
things running through my mind

116
00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,320
and what it means to be metal and severed heads.

117
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,280
And so it kind of got a feeling of…

118
00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,894
of the resemblances of all this brutality.

119
00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:16,519
Just trying to show the insanity, 
really the insanity of war.

120
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:25,640
I actually have cannibalized my own 
work to kind of liberate myself from

121
00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:31,680
what I have done and what I 
really want to do in the future.

122
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:40,520
For Spain I had this idea of the repetition 
of that image that I so blatantly liberated,

123
00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:45,331
I saved from the ancient 
Egyptian, uh, Mourning Women.

124
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,299
Then I thought that somehow to emphasize this…

125
00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:58,880
this kind of prayerful, looking up as if 
looking up to heaven or god knows what,

126
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:05,000
I decided that it should be on the 
ground, like a real funeral procession.

127
00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:14,880
In the gallery in New York I 
retitled and kind of redid it again,

128
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,203
but entitled it Cri du Coeur.

129
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,360
It was the first piece after Leon died.

130
00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:28,480
Like a “cry of the heart,” but to me it must 
mean something kind of like intense emotion,

131
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,600
almost like praying, a cri du coeur you know,

132
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,800
plea-ing you know with heaven or…

133
00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,692
or something like that I think by the gestures.

134
00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,640
It’s almost...it’s always so strange,

135
00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,280
it’s so empty and then you just put one…

136
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,760
these stupid little things in and…

137
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,698
and it’s too much then. This is good.

138
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:03,800
Maybe over near.....

139
00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,280
Why do I do art?

140
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,746
What isn’t a reason for doing art?

141
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:12,999
I don’t know, it does need something.

142
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:22,520
That’s why it’s not finished, 
because I can’t think you know what…

143
00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:24,700
what to do.

144
00:12:25,420 --> 00:12:27,600
SAM: Maybe it needs something 
to throw it off balance.

145
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:28,920
SPERO: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm.

146
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:30,280
SAM: Something awkward.

147
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,709
SPERO: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. I think I have 
to think about it in another time.