0:00:10.892,0:00:17.840 NANCY SPERO: Even though I have over 500 [br]images in my art at this point to choose from, 0:00:17.840,0:00:19.960 nevertheless I have what you call “stars.” 0:00:19.960,0:00:25.773 Like stars in Hollywood, they’re appearing [br]and reappearing in different roles. 0:00:27.080,0:00:32.200 Certainly the ancient Egyptians, [br]the musicians, are stars. 0:00:32.200,0:00:37.920 And I had made a design with many [br]of these ancient Egyptian images 0:00:38.280,0:00:42.107 for this subway station here in New York City. 0:00:42.107,0:00:45.000 See a continuum, see a procession. 0:00:45.000,0:00:50.134 Now this procession is kind [br]of formalized and dance-like. 0:00:51.880,0:00:54.080 Let’s say it could be for an opera. 0:00:54.080,0:00:56.083 After all, this is Lincoln Center. 0:01:00.080,0:01:05.640 I’d like to think that I have all [br]layers of conceptual in the art, 0:01:05.640,0:01:07.988 that it...it’s easily read. 0:01:09.371,0:01:13.680 But on the other hand, I do [br]hope that it’s more complicated 0:01:14.343,0:01:20.647 and that it’s not just one [br]easy read and then that’s it. 0:01:25.840,0:01:27.840 See I have too much stuff. 0:01:29.204,0:01:30.800 This is from about.... 0:01:30.800,0:01:34.560 This is a lot of years and [br]many different people printing. 0:01:34.560,0:01:39.341 I guess maybe my art can be said to be a protest. 0:01:40.080,0:01:47.360 I don’t know if it’s railing against the [br]world or something, but I am protesting. 0:01:47.360,0:01:49.720 And as an artist, I… 0:01:49.720,0:01:55.777 I am privileged to create in things [br]the way I think that they should be, 0:01:56.440,0:02:01.516 you know because that gets [br]out my message to the world. 0:02:02.880,0:02:05.000 See I’m interested in messages. 0:02:05.568,0:02:10.765 And if people want to take something [br]from it, I am thrilled of course. 0:02:13.720,0:02:20.823 The War Paintings are certainly a protest [br]because it was done with indignation. 0:02:21.694,0:02:28.680 The U.S. had gotten involved in Vietnam [br]and I remember during that time, 0:02:28.680,0:02:37.280 reading newspapers and I remember this [br]terrible image of like this woman running from, 0:02:37.280,0:02:42.501 you know from her house that had [br]been set afire by helicopters. 0:02:42.880,0:02:46.640 I thought of the victims in Vietnam 0:02:46.640,0:02:50.382 and what they would think of these war machines. 0:02:52.200,0:02:58.200 And that was working on me and then [br]I started painting the War series. 0:02:58.200,0:03:04.383 But I felt then that the symbol of [br]the Vietnam War was the helicopter 0:03:04.800,0:03:08.475 and that became my primary subject matter. 0:03:11.600,0:03:18.908 I think the political came by having [br]a partnership with Leon Golub. 0:03:19.760,0:03:28.529 My husband, my partner really of over [br]51 years, he’s recently deceased. 0:03:30.360,0:03:37.200 Leon always had some sort of [br]foot in the political in his art, 0:03:37.200,0:03:38.901 whether it was overt or not. 0:03:39.640,0:03:46.719 And I think that that aspect of [br]his thinking influenced me a lot. 0:03:48.992,0:03:52.457 This back and forth of ideas and discussions, 0:03:54.219,0:03:58.906 I think that Leon’s painting is incredibly ugly, 0:03:59.493,0:04:02.243 which makes it incredibly beautiful. 0:04:03.000,0:04:07.917 But the main thing is the [br]power and the action in it. 0:04:10.588,0:04:16.878 It was pretty damned difficult [br]contending with someone who was so, 0:04:16.878,0:04:22.299 not only did he do big [br]paintings and fantastic ones, 0:04:22.640,0:04:28.120 but you know what, he...he was really [br]brilliant and that’s pretty hard. 0:04:28.120,0:04:31.590 I had a really hard time [br]contending with such a person. 0:04:32.120,0:04:35.880 But I decided I, I just had to do my thing 0:04:35.880,0:04:40.000 and so I started doing very small work. 0:04:40.520,0:04:41.880 Very small work. 0:04:41.880,0:04:46.800 Figures that are sometimes [br]an inch tall or even less. 0:04:46.800,0:04:51.586 Almost microscopic. And so [br]in a way that’s a retort. 0:04:52.400,0:04:59.640 And also it’s a retort to the large works [br]of the mostly male New York artists. 0:05:01.000,0:05:04.845 Leon of course always in my mind was an exception. 0:05:06.000,0:05:10.919 How totally sympathetic he was to my art. 0:05:15.200,0:05:19.360 Over the years the work has evolved [br]from a more traditional format 0:05:19.360,0:05:24.200 of either the rectangle or the square [br]or whatever in front of one’s eyes. 0:05:24.200,0:05:31.200 And if we move our eyes, it would be [br]eventually nothing there but blank wall. 0:05:31.200,0:05:33.849 And so I have let it continue. 0:05:34.834,0:05:39.320 This is in Malmö, Sweden that I [br]showed it, THE BLACK AND THE RED. 0:05:39.320,0:05:41.760 This was an enormous room. 0:05:41.760,0:05:49.280 In seeing this huge, huge gallery, I just [br]kind of took a deep breath and I put… 0:05:49.280,0:05:52.520 I put the paper piece around in a single band. 0:05:52.520,0:05:57.120 I continued along printing on [br]the wall like a trompe l’oeil 0:05:57.120,0:06:02.468 to reiterate the images in the printed piece. 0:06:04.438,0:06:09.840 And when the show was over, I could [br]pick up and take THE BLACK AND THE RED, 0:06:09.840,0:06:15.600 that which was on paper, but I [br]couldn’t take THE BLACK AND THE RED, 0:06:15.600,0:06:18.438 that had been printed on the wall. 0:06:19.840,0:06:24.348 It’s like theater, when the [br]play is over, it’s finished, 0:06:25.560,0:06:33.545 it only stays in the memory of [br]those who saw it and remember it. 0:06:40.667,0:06:43.800 SPERO: So we’ll have a few [br]on the ground, yeah. Wow. 0:06:43.800,0:06:45.680 SAM KUNTZ: ...(OVERLAP) have [br]them on the ground or not? 0:06:45.680,0:06:50.360 SPERO: No, no I thought we’d...maybe [br]just a couple on the ground you know. 0:06:50.360,0:06:50.960 Yeah. 0:06:50.960,0:06:52.379 Ooh, that’s good. 0:06:53.080,0:06:55.312 Ooh, ooh, that’s really white. 0:06:55.918,0:06:57.563 Oops, oops, oops. 0:06:59.760,0:07:01.449 Yeah, yeah. 0:07:01.449,0:07:05.280 SPERO: I was invited to be in the Venice Biennale. 0:07:05.280,0:07:07.720 I thought, what in the devil am I going to do? 0:07:07.720,0:07:13.720 And I was thinking about one of the [br]paintings I had done in the War series. 0:07:13.720,0:07:17.977 And in that I had done a maypole [br]with bloody severed heads 0:07:18.280,0:07:22.280 hanging from gaily colored [br]ribbons from the maypole. 0:07:22.280,0:07:25.711 And finally I thought to literally make a maypole. 0:07:29.840,0:07:36.640 So I just started working on the maypole with [br]the help of Sam Kuntz and Marybeth Craig. 0:07:36.640,0:07:39.080 Marybeth’s in printing the images 0:07:39.080,0:07:45.760 and so Sam has been working her part of [br]the magic in transforming these heads. 0:07:45.760,0:07:54.800 SAM: Nancy has such a facility to [br]render an expressive, pained figure. 0:07:56.240,0:08:01.080 And what’s amazing to me is that [br]if you look at these carefully, 0:08:01.080,0:08:05.440 they’re very small and the line [br]has been drawn very quickly. 0:08:05.440,0:08:08.160 And this expression is articulated perfectly. 0:08:08.160,0:08:10.320 I mean and...and they’re [br]all different. It’s not.... 0:08:10.320,0:08:13.500 I mean it’s, it’s a kind of freedom that she has. 0:08:14.390,0:08:17.120 SAM: Some of these might even have [br]been done as part of the War series 0:08:17.120,0:08:21.640 which would be 1966 through ’68. 0:08:21.640,0:08:27.000 She saved some of these heads that were [br]never incorporated into any of the pieces. 0:08:27.000,0:08:32.320 And so now we’re blowing them up [br]to make printing plates of polymers 0:08:32.320,0:08:36.360 so that we can print a back [br]on aluminum on a large scale 0:08:36.360,0:08:39.318 and make these disembodied heads. 0:08:41.501,0:08:47.061 SPERO: But I feel that the images I [br]did long ago which I can’t recoup. 0:08:47.061,0:08:52.200 You know I mean I cannot [br]re-draw them, in the same way. 0:08:52.200,0:08:56.760 I’m on another ...I’m on [br]another direction altogether. 0:08:56.760,0:09:03.028 But I thought that I couldn’t cannibalize [br]what I have done forty years ago. 0:09:03.520,0:09:08.440 I have the idea of printing on [br]the metal and then cutting it out. 0:09:08.440,0:09:14.360 So I’ve envisioned it then that it [br]would be on this metal and that maybe, 0:09:14.360,0:09:16.280 I don’t know how we’re going to do this, 0:09:16.280,0:09:18.480 but have a few kind of together. 0:09:18.480,0:09:22.491 And so if they banged up against [br]each other it would clank. 0:09:24.480,0:09:32.000 If one goes into jail for instance and hearing the [br]clank of the door and there you are, you’re.... 0:09:32.000,0:09:35.240 I mean it even leaves me breathless now, 0:09:35.240,0:09:37.720 thinking about that, the sound of it. 0:09:37.720,0:09:39.840 And there you are. 0:09:39.840,0:09:44.840 I mean, there one is in this jail you know 0:09:44.840,0:09:51.400 and one can’t get out until that [br]guy with the keys or whatever left… 0:09:51.400,0:09:53.160 lets you out. 0:09:53.160,0:09:56.960 And, and, and so it is all of these [br]things running through my mind 0:09:56.960,0:10:00.320 and what it means to be metal and severed heads. 0:10:00.320,0:10:04.280 And so it kind of got a feeling of… 0:10:04.280,0:10:07.894 of the resemblances of all this brutality. 0:10:10.640,0:10:16.519 Just trying to show the insanity, [br]really the insanity of war. 0:10:19.360,0:10:25.640 I actually have cannibalized my own [br]work to kind of liberate myself from 0:10:25.640,0:10:31.680 what I have done and what I [br]really want to do in the future. 0:10:32.400,0:10:40.520 For Spain I had this idea of the repetition [br]of that image that I so blatantly liberated, 0:10:40.520,0:10:45.331 I saved from the ancient [br]Egyptian, uh, Mourning Women. 0:10:46.600,0:10:51.299 Then I thought that somehow to emphasize this… 0:10:51.640,0:10:58.880 this kind of prayerful, looking up as if [br]looking up to heaven or god knows what, 0:10:58.880,0:11:05.000 I decided that it should be on the [br]ground, like a real funeral procession. 0:11:07.760,0:11:14.880 In the gallery in New York I [br]retitled and kind of redid it again, 0:11:14.880,0:11:17.203 but entitled it Cri du Coeur. 0:11:19.400,0:11:22.360 It was the first piece after Leon died. 0:11:22.360,0:11:28.480 Like a “cry of the heart,” but to me it must [br]mean something kind of like intense emotion, 0:11:28.480,0:11:31.600 almost like praying, a cri du coeur you know, 0:11:31.600,0:11:34.800 plea-ing you know with heaven or… 0:11:34.800,0:11:37.692 or something like that I think by the gestures. 0:11:41.480,0:11:45.640 It’s almost...it’s always so strange, 0:11:45.640,0:11:48.280 it’s so empty and then you just put one… 0:11:48.280,0:11:51.760 these stupid little things in and… 0:11:51.760,0:11:55.698 and it’s too much then. This is good. 0:12:02.440,0:12:03.800 Maybe over near..... 0:12:04.880,0:12:06.280 Why do I do art? 0:12:06.280,0:12:09.746 What isn’t a reason for doing art? 0:12:10.920,0:12:12.999 I don’t know, it does need something. 0:12:16.200,0:12:22.520 That’s why it’s not finished, [br]because I can’t think you know what… 0:12:23.560,0:12:24.700 what to do. 0:12:25.420,0:12:27.600 SAM: Maybe it needs something [br]to throw it off balance. 0:12:27.600,0:12:28.920 SPERO: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. 0:12:28.920,0:12:30.280 SAM: Something awkward. 0:12:30.280,0:12:34.709 SPERO: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. I think I have [br]to think about it in another time.