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Khuda se Mutaliq Sawalat aur Ilm 
al Kalam ka Jawab - PART 2

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by Jawed Ahmad Ghamidi

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[Hassan Ilyas] Yesterday, I asked you a 
question related to hypothetical statements

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that we use in relation to Allah, 
nauzubillah (I seek refuge with Allah)

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That Allah can lie, or he can make a rock
which even he can lift.

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You detailed out your views on these 
kind of discussions.

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There is a relative aspect and doubt, I 
want you to explain us in detail.

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When you are in a discussion related to
the existence of God,

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the argument behind confirmation for 
God's being,

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or the various aspects of atheism or 
agnosticism that are put forward.

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It is said that you logically conclude 
the arguments with intellectual evidence.

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And the other party to the discussion is
puzzled with your style.

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My question to you today is that,
Even you include these

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intellectual evidences and arguments in 
your discussions,

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People often say that a conversation 
with Ghamidi Sahib is very rational,

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logical, enlightened and intellectual.

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So, even your paradigm answers 
these modern suspicion or doubt

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by way of intellectual and logical 
arguments.

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Then what about simple and inherent 
arguments given by the Quran

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as you often say?

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[Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] Don't you consider 
the inherent arguments given

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by the Quran as logical?

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What I had earlier mentioned was that,
things that evolve from a specific

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philosophical or logical background and 
people present these questions just to

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?? of the religion.

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These are the things that clearly convey 
that your addressee does not have that

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perceptive attitude to understand or dive
into something of this imperative nature.

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In that case you should follow ??

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Arguments will be have there significance.

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The Quran itself is an example of 
reasoning,

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But what sort of argumentation?

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I had explained that reasoning only.

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I often present this reasoning, infact
I have penned it down in my book Meezan.

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If you read the topic of 
"Believe in Allah" in my book,

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I have explained in detail that how
Allah himself has presented arguments

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on his own essence.

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That is the argumentation that I term 
as Fitri "simple" reasoning.

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The argumentation that is based on the
intellect of common people.

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Its evident that when we focus our 
attention towards God, and say that

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look around the world, try to comprehend 
what is around you,

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try to look at your own existence, try
to understand how God has bestowed

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different abilities and wisdom to 
different creatures in the universe.

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So, are they only trying to find reasons?

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I was actually trying to explain the way 
of reasoning.

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I have never said that you should
accept the religious cases

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without proper reasoning.

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Rather, I was trying to throw light on 
how the Quran educates us

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to find logic in the religion and 
religious affairs.

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There are two types of things: the 
first one is the knowledge that is

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limited to our own understanding, and 
the discussion of argument is either

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based on observation or experience.

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In fact this is also the way of 
argumentation

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which is employed in the religion.

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For instance, there are few things that 
have been prohibited in the religion.

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Those things that have been prohibited in 
the religion and

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why they have been prohibited in the 
religion.

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If you want to base your argument on 
why certain things are prohibited

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in the religion on experience or observation 
then you can do that.

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Certain things are related to the world 
that is hidden from us and

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we cannot see that, We cannot observe 
or experience it.

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Similarly, same is the case with the being
of God.

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Because it is not possible the God can 
be shown to you or else you can

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be called up into the heavens to observe 
God or his being.

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So here in this case we can make 
logical conclusions.

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How does the Quran educate us as 
to how we can make a

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logical inference in relation to God.

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The methods employed by our eminent 
Scholars and the experts of logic

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do not relate to what has been 
mentioned in the Quran.

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Of course I was not having a detailed 
discussion at that point in time you

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had asked me a question and I was 
answering that.

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In reality, ancient philosophy paved the
way for discussions and

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assumptions in this matter.

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If you pay attention, modern 
science has rejected all of these.

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These things were neither based
on experience nor observation,

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then what was the basis of 
these things.

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For instance, look at the philosophy of
idealism by Plato,

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even Aristotle denied it immediately
after him.

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And he clarified that in the philosophy 
of idealism,

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ideas or mental images are considered at
par with reality.

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If we try to culminate all the 
philosophies of metaphysics in one word,

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then this is it (((?))).

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In the philosophy of idealism, majorly 
mental state or circumstances are

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considered as real.

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And there has been such a logical
connection among the mental state

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and the reality which corresponds to that
of a fictional author.

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What does he do?

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He creates the plot, circumstances out of
his own intellectual imagination and

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also tries to visualize the characters 
from his mental images and creates

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such a mutual relationship that while
we read a novel or a story we feel

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like we are living a real world and 
all the characters in it are real.

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Therefore, the philosophy of metaphysics
which was even adopted by the masters

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of Sufism was based on these fancy 
imaginative interpretations.

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[Ilyas] Please elaborate about takhayul 
(imagination)?

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[Ghamidi] Those things that do that
encompass your experience or observation,

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it is an imaginative world that you create
on your own.

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All of poetry is based on Takhayul 
(imagination).

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Imagination has its own beauty, but
only for poetry.

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Not for the discovery of facts and 
reality.

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So, when this method was adopted then
these sort of logical questions were also

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included in it, i.e. to measure the 
divinity of God.

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To reproach the knowledge of God.

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To connect the existence of God
in retain to space and time.

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I have quite often tried to throw some
light and make people pay attention

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to these sort of things.

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"Ayaz Qadr-e-Khud Ba-Shanas"

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The Quran has taught us a great lesson,

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When people started to raise questions
on a very serious issue then the Quran

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gave a response to it in a conflux.

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wama uteetum minal-ilmi illa qaleela

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i.e religion never proclaims that
"come we will show you God"

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You would experience the divinity
of God.

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Or else come to us and we have the 
capability to let you observe

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some of the attributes of Allah in 
the heavens.

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We can inscribe the existence of God
by way of a sketch in front of you.

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None of this is real, rather the Quran
clearly states that

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Neither is none that can be compared 
with Allah,

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And if there is none like him,
Laysa kamithlihi shay'uw,

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then how can you employ the
concept of similitude?

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And without presumption and similitude,
how can you define something which

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can neither be experienced or
observed?

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Therefore, the Quran has guided us that
a person should be taught from a point

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wherein he has developed the innate
qualities of thinking about God.

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Like his existence, creatures, 
existence of wisdom in the creatures,

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manifestation of nature,
manifestation of divinity,

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manifestation of mercy in them.

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When a person tries to see this 
world, the more he dives into it,

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the sooner he accepts that there must
be a creator of this universe.

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It is pertinent to mention that

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"It does not mean that, there is 
a creator" but there should be creator.

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Only after that the call of the
Prophets make sense to him.

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After that he comes to know about 
the inception, power, knowledge

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of Allah, as there is no other 
intellectual method for it.

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Prophets educate and introduce us in this
regard.

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I had earlier explained that we
must adopt this method,

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I tend to find reasons behind everything,
but what is the procedure for it?

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It is similar to the fact that people
used to argue that

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how can revelations be supported by
arguments.

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How can it be?

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A Prophet has an experience.

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God tried to establish a connect with 
a person,

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by appointing someone to develop
that relation.

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The way something becomes an observation
for us, likewise many verses are

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an act of observation for him.

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Which among the aforementioned things are
ever shown to us by the Prophet?

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None!

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Then what do we see?

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We listen to the voice and speech of
the Prophet.

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We look at the character of the Prophet.

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We listen and observe the instructions
about the religion from the Prophet.

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And after analyzing the extraordinary 
character, personality and knowledge

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of the Prophet, it becomes evident and
difficult to deny that he can be no other

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than someone speaking for God.

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And when this thing is established
then, Rohe awaz e payambar mojziha ast

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and only after that he brings 
the instructions of God to people.

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And proclaims that he receives revelations
from God,

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he claims to have seen the angels.

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None of this requires a valid or logical 
argument for its justification.

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However, this simple narration is 
explained to all, that when God

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appoints his Prophet and declares that
he is the creator of this world.

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Then whatever instruction God would give,
they would not be beyond his power.

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If he created me, and thousands like me,

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God even claims to have created djinns
and Angels.

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God talks about the capabilities bestowed
upon his angels.

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God talks about the way he created djinn.

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What the reason to not accept this?

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But, if in this case we try to apply the 
logical argumentation to prove the genie,

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then it would be wrong method employed.

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Unfortunately, in our traditions these 
methods were adopted in order to

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restrain the speaker by asking questions 
based on logical argumentation.

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That is the reason all this become 
meaningless and spiritless in the history.

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You can't find anything of this sort now,
otherwise it should been a part of

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discussion, having a status of 
factual reality.

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What is still in practice?

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The innate argument of the Quran.

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It makes you think about your 
internal values,

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it helps you with the explanation
of submission to God.

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Its says that if the remembrance of the 
Quran is absorbed in you, but its signs

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could have been found in your existence.

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And the Quran guide you to walk through 
these signs,

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introduces the creators creatures, 
likewise with the the universe.

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If you look in the Quran.

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The Quran presents a beautiful model of
every thing by way of deductive logic

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and/or intellectual argumentation.

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This aforementioned argumentation is 
sensual, deductive as well as a part of

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personal argument, when the Prophet 
manifests his Prophet hood. ((?))

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This is the argument that I have explained
in great detail and I have even enumerated

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this argument in my book Meezan.

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Where in my speech or in my book,
have I detailed out anything of this sort

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in sync with what the scholars of 
religion say.

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Did I ever say anything like, 
If God can lie or not?

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[Ilyas] Thank You Ghamidi Sahab.

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You have beautifully detailed out
your point of view.

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In the last few seconds, I want you to
please comment on this as a whole.

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In our society when some of our modern 
intellectuals and philosophers adopted

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this interpretation. Many religious 
scholars rejects their interpretation

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if it dint appear to be in sync with their
logical understanding. For instance,

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Djin, Heaven and hell, like we discussed 
the works of Sir Syed, and others.

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Is it the same reason that they just have
a scope of one possibility,

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There is no room for any other 
interpretation,

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and therefore they reject it.

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[Ghamidi] Exactly, this is the case.

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The Quran has made it amply clear as to
how to know the limits of your knowledge,

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to what degree one can rely on 
deductive logic.

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To what extend you have to pay attention
towards your inner self and find

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the innate level of science that existed 
within you.

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And to find the place where the Prophets 
would guide you further.

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Each of these aforementioned situations
have a level of intellectual argument

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and when this argument is ascertained
only then you enter the world of

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observation and experience.

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This is matter of method,
which method is to be employed?

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The method of argumentation mentioned 
in the Quran must be adopted.

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This method was adopted by Maulana 
Ameen Ahsan Islahi in his books,

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like in Haqeeqat-e-Shirk, 
Haqeeqat-e-Tawheed.

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This method was adopted in the 
deliberation of the Quran.

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We can find lot of examples of this 
adopted method,

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in the works of many people of 
knowledge.