9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Khuda se Mutaliq Sawalat aur Ilm [br]al Kalam ka Jawab - PART 2 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by Jawed Ahmad Ghamidi 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 [Hassan Ilyas] Yesterday, I asked you a [br]question related to hypothetical statements 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that we use in relation to Allah, [br]nauzubillah (I seek refuge with Allah) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That Allah can lie, or he can make a rock[br]which even he can lift. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You detailed out your views on these [br]kind of discussions. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There is a relative aspect and doubt, I [br]want you to explain us in detail. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 When you are in a discussion related to[br]the existence of God, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the argument behind confirmation for [br]God's being, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 or the various aspects of atheism or [br]agnosticism that are put forward. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It is said that you logically conclude [br]the arguments with intellectual evidence. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And the other party to the discussion is[br]puzzled with your style. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 My question to you today is that,[br]Even you include these 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 intellectual evidences and arguments in [br]your discussions, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 People often say that a conversation [br]with Ghamidi Sahib is very rational, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 logical, enlightened and intellectual. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So, even your paradigm answers [br]these modern suspicion or doubt 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by way of intellectual and logical [br]arguments. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Then what about simple and inherent [br]arguments given by the Quran 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as you often say? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 [Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] Don't you consider [br]the inherent arguments given 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by the Quran as logical? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What I had earlier mentioned was that,[br]things that evolve from a specific 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 philosophical or logical background and [br]people present these questions just to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 ?? of the religion. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 These are the things that clearly convey [br]that your addressee does not have that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 perceptive attitude to understand or dive[br]into something of this imperative nature. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In that case you should follow ?? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Arguments will be have there significance. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The Quran itself is an example of [br]reasoning, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But what sort of argumentation? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I had explained that reasoning only. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I often present this reasoning, infact[br]I have penned it down in my book Meezan. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you read the topic of [br]"Believe in Allah" in my book, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I have explained in detail that how[br]Allah himself has presented arguments 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 on his own essence. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That is the argumentation that I term [br]as Fitri "simple" reasoning. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The argumentation that is based on the[br]intellect of common people. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Its evident that when we focus our [br]attention towards God, and say that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 look around the world, try to comprehend [br]what is around you, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 try to look at your own existence, try[br]to understand how God has bestowed 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 different abilities and wisdom to [br]different creatures in the universe. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So, are they only trying to find reasons? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I was actually trying to explain the way [br]of reasoning. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I have never said that you should[br]accept the religious cases 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 without proper reasoning. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Rather, I was trying to throw light on [br]how the Quran educates us 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to find logic in the religion and [br]religious affairs. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There are two types of things: the [br]first one is the knowledge that is 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 limited to our own understanding, and [br]the discussion of argument is either 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 based on observation or experience. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In fact this is also the way of [br]argumentation 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which is employed in the religion. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 For instance, there are few things that [br]have been prohibited in the religion. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Those things that have been prohibited in [br]the religion and 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 why they have been prohibited in the [br]religion. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you want to base your argument on [br]why certain things are prohibited 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the religion on experience or observation [br]then you can do that. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Certain things are related to the world [br]that is hidden from us and 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we cannot see that, We cannot observe [br]or experience it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Similarly, same is the case with the being[br]of God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Because it is not possible the God can [br]be shown to you or else you can 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 be called up into the heavens to observe [br]God or his being. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So here in this case we can make [br]logical conclusions. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 How does the Quran educate us as [br]to how we can make a 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 logical inference in relation to God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The methods employed by our eminent [br]Scholars and the experts of logic 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 do not relate to what has been [br]mentioned in the Quran. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Of course I was not having a detailed [br]discussion at that point in time you 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 had asked me a question and I was [br]answering that. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In reality, ancient philosophy paved the[br]way for discussions and 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 assumptions in this matter. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you pay attention, modern [br]science has rejected all of these. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 These things were neither based[br]on experience nor observation, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 then what was the basis of [br]these things. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 For instance, look at the philosophy of[br]idealism by Plato, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 even Aristotle denied it immediately[br]after him. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And he clarified that in the philosophy [br]of idealism, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 ideas or mental images are considered at[br]par with reality. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If we try to culminate all the [br]philosophies of metaphysics in one word, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 then this is it (((?))). 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In the philosophy of idealism, majorly [br]mental state or circumstances are 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 considered as real. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And there has been such a logical[br]connection among the mental state 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the reality which corresponds to that[br]of a fictional author. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What does he do? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 He creates the plot, circumstances out of[br]his own intellectual imagination and 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 also tries to visualize the characters [br]from his mental images and creates 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 such a mutual relationship that while[br]we read a novel or a story we feel 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like we are living a real world and [br]all the characters in it are real. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Therefore, the philosophy of metaphysics[br]which was even adopted by the masters 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of Sufism was based on these fancy [br]imaginative interpretations. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 [Ilyas] Please elaborate about takhayul [br](imagination)? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 [Ghamidi] Those things that do that[br]encompass your experience or observation, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it is an imaginative world that you create[br]on your own. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 All of poetry is based on Takhayul [br](imagination). 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Imagination has its own beauty, but[br]only for poetry. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Not for the discovery of facts and [br]reality. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So, when this method was adopted then[br]these sort of logical questions were also 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 included in it, i.e. to measure the [br]divinity of God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 To reproach the knowledge of God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 To connect the existence of God[br]in retain to space and time. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I have quite often tried to throw some[br]light and make people pay attention 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to these sort of things. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "Ayaz Qadr-e-Khud Ba-Shanas" 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The Quran has taught us a great lesson, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 When people started to raise questions[br]on a very serious issue then the Quran 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 gave a response to it in a conflux. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 wama uteetum minal-ilmi illa qaleela 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 i.e religion never proclaims that[br]"come we will show you God" 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You would experience the divinity[br]of God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Or else come to us and we have the [br]capability to let you observe 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 some of the attributes of Allah in [br]the heavens. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We can inscribe the existence of God[br]by way of a sketch in front of you. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 None of this is real, rather the Quran[br]clearly states that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Neither is none that can be compared [br]with Allah, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And if there is none like him,[br]Laysa kamithlihi shay'uw, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 then how can you employ the[br]concept of similitude? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And without presumption and similitude,[br]how can you define something which 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 can neither be experienced or[br]observed? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Therefore, the Quran has guided us that[br]a person should be taught from a point 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 wherein he has developed the innate[br]qualities of thinking about God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Like his existence, creatures, [br]existence of wisdom in the creatures, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 manifestation of nature,[br]manifestation of divinity, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 manifestation of mercy in them. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 When a person tries to see this [br]world, the more he dives into it, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the sooner he accepts that there must[br]be a creator of this universe. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It is pertinent to mention that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "It does not mean that, there is [br]a creator" but there should be creator. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Only after that the call of the[br]Prophets make sense to him. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 After that he comes to know about [br]the inception, power, knowledge 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of Allah, as there is no other [br]intellectual method for it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Prophets educate and introduce us in this[br]regard. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I had earlier explained that we[br]must adopt this method, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I tend to find reasons behind everything,[br]but what is the procedure for it? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It is similar to the fact that people[br]used to argue that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 how can revelations be supported by[br]arguments. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 How can it be? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 A Prophet has an experience. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 God tried to establish a connect with [br]a person, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by appointing someone to develop[br]that relation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The way something becomes an observation[br]for us, likewise many verses are 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 an act of observation for him. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Which among the aforementioned things are[br]ever shown to us by the Prophet? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 None! 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Then what do we see? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We listen to the voice and speech of[br]the Prophet. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We look at the character of the Prophet. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We listen and observe the instructions[br]about the religion from the Prophet. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And after analyzing the extraordinary [br]character, personality and knowledge 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of the Prophet, it becomes evident and[br]difficult to deny that he can be no other 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 than someone speaking for God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And when this thing is established[br]then, Rohe awaz e payambar mojziha ast 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and only after that he brings [br]the instructions of God to people. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And proclaims that he receives revelations[br]from God, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 he claims to have seen the angels. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 None of this requires a valid or logical [br]argument for its justification. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 However, this simple narration is [br]explained to all, that when God 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 appoints his Prophet and declares that[br]he is the creator of this world. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Then whatever instruction God would give,[br]they would not be beyond his power. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If he created me, and thousands like me, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 God even claims to have created djinns[br]and Angels. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 God talks about the capabilities bestowed[br]upon his angels. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 God talks about the way he created djinn. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What the reason to not accept this? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But, if in this case we try to apply the [br]logical argumentation to prove the genie, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 then it would be wrong method employed. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Unfortunately, in our traditions these [br]methods were adopted in order to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 restrain the speaker by asking questions [br]based on logical argumentation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That is the reason all this become [br]meaningless and spiritless in the history. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You can't find anything of this sort now,[br]otherwise it should been a part of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 discussion, having a status of [br]factual reality. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What is still in practice? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The innate argument of the Quran. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It makes you think about your [br]internal values, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it helps you with the explanation[br]of submission to God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Its says that if the remembrance of the [br]Quran is absorbed in you, but its signs 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 could have been found in your existence. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And the Quran guide you to walk through [br]these signs, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 introduces the creators creatures, [br]likewise with the the universe. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you look in the Quran. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The Quran presents a beautiful model of[br]every thing by way of deductive logic 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and/or intellectual argumentation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This aforementioned argumentation is [br]sensual, deductive as well as a part of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 personal argument, when the Prophet [br]manifests his Prophet hood. ((?)) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This is the argument that I have explained[br]in great detail and I have even enumerated 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this argument in my book Meezan. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Where in my speech or in my book,[br]have I detailed out anything of this sort 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in sync with what the scholars of [br]religion say. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Did I ever say anything like, [br]If God can lie or not? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 [Ilyas] Thank You Ghamidi Sahab. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You have beautifully detailed out[br]your point of view. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In the last few seconds, I want you to[br]please comment on this as a whole