WEBVTT 00:00:01.210 --> 00:00:03.790 Questions about God and the answers provided by Ilm al Kalam - PART 2 00:00:03.790 --> 00:00:05.323 by Javed Ahmad Ghamidi 00:00:05.323 --> 00:00:09.073 [Hassan Ilyas] Yesterday, I asked you a question related to hypothetical sentences 00:00:09.073 --> 00:00:11.313 that we often use in relation to God, nauzubillah (I seek refuge with Allah) 00:00:11.313 --> 00:00:15.630 that can Allah lie, or can He make a rock that even he cannot Himself lift. 00:00:15.630 --> 00:00:19.415 You detailed out your views on these discussions. 00:00:19.415 --> 00:00:21.955 There is a related aspect to it as well as a doubt, 00:00:21.955 --> 00:00:24.105 I want you to explain it to us in detail. 00:00:24.105 --> 00:00:28.755 When you are in a discussion related to the existence of God, 00:00:28.755 --> 00:00:31.275 the argument behind the proof for God's being, 00:00:31.275 --> 00:00:35.861 or the various aspects of atheism or agnosticism that are put forward. 00:00:36.201 --> 00:00:42.070 It is said that you logically refute the arguments with intellectual evidence. 00:00:42.070 --> 00:00:45.497 And the other party to the discussion is defeated by your refutations. 00:00:45.825 --> 00:00:48.685 My question to you today is that, 00:00:48.685 --> 00:00:51.435 Even you include these intellectual evidences & arguments in your discussions, 00:00:51.435 --> 00:00:55.250 Also, one has an impression, I would request you to include it in your answer 00:00:55.250 --> 00:00:58.355 People often say that Ghamidi Sahib conversation is very rational, 00:00:58.355 --> 00:01:00.595 logical, enlightened and intellectual. 00:01:00.867 --> 00:01:04.867 So, in your paradigm provides answers to these contemporary suspicions and doubts 00:01:04.867 --> 00:01:07.957 by way of intellectual and logical arguments. 00:01:08.133 --> 00:01:10.733 Then what happens to the natural, inherent arguments given by the Quran 00:01:10.733 --> 00:01:11.819 as you often claim? 00:01:12.434 --> 00:01:15.584 [Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] Don't you consider the simple, 'fitri' arguments given 00:01:15.584 --> 00:01:16.690 by the Quran as being rational? 00:01:17.340 --> 00:01:24.594 What I had earlier mentioned was that: things that evolve from a specific 00:01:24.594 --> 00:01:27.144 philosophical or logical background. 00:01:27.144 --> 00:01:31.205 People present these questions just so as to derive some enjoyment from them 00:01:31.205 --> 00:01:33.945 and in the process ridicule religion. 00:01:33.945 --> 00:01:41.475 These are the things that clearly convey that your addressee does not have the 00:01:41.475 --> 00:01:47.865 perception, attitude, or an acumen of interest to understand or 00:01:47.865 --> 00:01:52.200 dive into something of this kind of discourse. 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:55.808 In that case you should try to ignore or excuse yourself from such arguments. 00:01:55.808 --> 00:01:57.838 Arguments will have there own significance. 00:01:57.838 --> 00:02:00.178 The Quran itself is full of reasoning, 00:02:00.512 --> 00:02:02.152 But what sort of reasoning? 00:02:03.140 --> 00:02:05.849 All I had explained was the reasoning within the Quran itself. 00:02:05.999 --> 00:02:09.119 I have often explicated the reasoning that the Quran puts forth. 00:02:09.564 --> 00:02:14.339 Infact, I have penned it down in my book Meezan. 00:02:15.115 --> 00:02:18.995 If you read the chapter on "Belief in Allah" in my book, Meezan. 00:02:19.204 --> 00:02:22.154 I have explained in detail that how 00:02:22.154 --> 00:02:25.164 God has presented arguments about his own existence. 00:02:25.918 --> 00:02:29.528 That is the form of reasoning that I term as Fitri "intuitive" reasoning. 00:02:30.167 --> 00:02:33.487 The argumentation that is based on common sense premises. 00:02:34.690 --> 00:02:39.279 It is evident that when we focus our attention towards God's Being and say that 00:02:39.279 --> 00:02:43.279 look around the world, try to comprehend what is around you, 00:02:43.279 --> 00:02:47.279 try to look at your own existence and understand how God has bestowed 00:02:47.279 --> 00:02:51.879 different abilities and wisdom to different creatures in the universe. 00:02:52.201 --> 00:02:54.459 So, aren't we engaging in a reasoning process? 00:02:54.459 --> 00:02:57.939 I was actually making a comment on the method of reasoning. 00:02:58.533 --> 00:03:02.533 I have never said that you should accept the premises of religion 00:03:02.533 --> 00:03:03.973 without even thinking. 00:03:04.920 --> 00:03:08.920 Rather, I was trying to throw light on how the Quran educates us 00:03:08.920 --> 00:03:11.692 to engage in reasoning in religion and religious affairs. 00:03:12.595 --> 00:03:17.435 There are two types of things: the first one is the knowledge that is 00:03:17.435 --> 00:03:23.411 limited to our own understanding, and the basis of argumentation is only 00:03:23.411 --> 00:03:27.411 our own observation or experience. 00:03:28.399 --> 00:03:32.399 In fact, this way of argumentation is also adopted in the religion. 00:03:32.761 --> 00:03:36.999 For instance, there are few things that have been prohibited in the religion. 00:03:37.270 --> 00:03:41.360 Why are these things prohibited in the religion? 00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:42.746 What are the basis for it? 00:03:42.967 --> 00:03:45.756 If you can base your argument on why certain things are prohibited 00:03:45.756 --> 00:03:47.866 in religion on experience or observation, then you may do that. 00:03:48.268 --> 00:03:53.796 Certain things are related to the world that is hidden from us and 00:03:53.796 --> 00:03:59.480 we cannot see it, or else we cannot observe or experience it. 00:03:59.998 --> 00:04:02.768 Similarly, same is the case with the being of God. 00:04:02.957 --> 00:04:07.627 Although, it is not possible the God can be shown or else you can 00:04:07.627 --> 00:04:10.697 be called up to the heavens to observe God or his being. 00:04:10.697 --> 00:04:13.565 So, here in this case we will make use of deductive reasoning 00:04:13.565 --> 00:04:16.975 How does the Quran educate us as to how we can make 00:04:16.975 --> 00:04:19.225 a deductive inference in relation to God? 00:04:19.512 --> 00:04:22.872 The methods employed by our Kalam theologians and the experts of logic 00:04:22.872 --> 00:04:26.872 do not relate to what has been mentioned in the Quran. 00:04:26.872 --> 00:04:30.872 Of course I was not having a detailed discussion at that point in time, 00:04:30.872 --> 00:04:33.832 you had asked me a question and I was answering that briefly. 00:04:33.832 --> 00:04:37.832 In reality, ancient philosophy paved the way for discussions and 00:04:37.832 --> 00:04:39.502 assumptions in this matter. 00:04:39.869 --> 00:04:44.650 If you pay attention, modern science has rejected all of it. 00:04:45.471 --> 00:04:49.251 These things were neither based on experience nor observation, 00:04:49.251 --> 00:04:51.483 then what was the real basis of these things? 00:04:51.483 --> 00:04:54.633 For instance, look at the philosophy of idealism by Plato, 00:04:54.991 --> 00:04:58.201 even Aristotle denied it immediately after him. 00:04:58.201 --> 00:05:01.311 And he clarified that in the philosophy of idealism, 00:05:01.311 --> 00:05:04.052 ideas or mental images are considered at par with reality. 00:05:04.052 --> 00:05:08.821 If we try to culminate all the philosophies of metaphysics in one word, 00:05:08.821 --> 00:05:10.141 then this is it. 00:05:10.141 --> 00:05:15.211 In the philosophy of idealism, majorly mental states or realms are 00:05:15.211 --> 00:05:16.591 considered as real. 00:05:16.944 --> 00:05:20.944 And there has been such a logical connection among the mental state 00:05:20.944 --> 00:05:26.304 and the reality which corresponds to that of a fictional author. 00:05:26.831 --> 00:05:28.301 What does he do? 00:05:28.505 --> 00:05:33.888 He creates the plot, circumstances out of his own intellectual imagination and 00:05:33.888 --> 00:05:37.888 also tries to visualize the characters from his mental images and creates 00:05:37.888 --> 00:05:45.268 such a mutual relationship that just like when we read a novel or a story we feel 00:05:45.268 --> 00:05:49.218 like we are living a real world and all the characters in it are real. 00:05:49.218 --> 00:05:53.218 Therefore, the philosophy of metaphysics which was even adopted by the 00:05:53.218 --> 00:05:59.228 masters of Sufism was based on this fancy and imaginative interpretations. 00:05:59.228 --> 00:06:01.008 [Ilyas] Please elaborate about takhayul (imagination)? 00:06:01.008 --> 00:06:04.748 [Ghamidi] Those things that do that encompass your experience or observation, 00:06:04.748 --> 00:06:06.608 it is an imaginative world that you create on your own. 00:06:06.608 --> 00:06:08.604 All of poetry is based on Takhayul (imagination). 00:06:08.604 --> 00:06:11.585 Imagination has its own beauty, but for poetry. 00:06:11.964 --> 00:06:14.314 Not for the discovery of facts and reality. 00:06:14.628 --> 00:06:18.628 So, when this method was adopted then these sort of logical questions were also 00:06:18.628 --> 00:06:22.628 included in it, i.e. to measure the divinity of God. 00:06:22.651 --> 00:06:24.861 To define the knowledge of God. 00:06:25.109 --> 00:06:28.634 To contain the existence of God, who is transcendent, 00:06:28.634 --> 00:06:31.784 within the limit of space and time. 00:06:31.784 --> 00:06:35.784 I have quite often tried to throw some light and make people pay attention 00:06:35.784 --> 00:06:37.433 to these sort of things. 00:06:37.433 --> 00:06:39.466 "Ayaz Qadr-e-Khud Ba-Shanas" 00:06:39.466 --> 00:06:42.191 The Quran has taught us a great lesson, 00:06:42.191 --> 00:06:46.191 When people started to raise questions on a very serious issue then the Quran 00:06:46.191 --> 00:06:48.601 gave a response to it in a concise way. 00:06:48.601 --> 00:06:50.981 wama uteetum minal-ilmi illa qaleela 00:06:50.981 --> 00:06:57.241 i.e religion never proclaims that "come we will show you God" 00:06:57.241 --> 00:07:00.052 You would experience the divinity of God. 00:07:00.664 --> 00:07:04.664 Or else come to us and we have the capability to let you observe 00:07:04.984 --> 00:07:09.824 some of the attributes of Allah in the heavens, or that 00:07:09.892 --> 00:07:18.062 we can inscribe the existence of God by way of a sketch in front of you. 00:07:18.602 --> 00:07:22.602 None of this is real, rather the Quran clearly states that 00:07:23.372 --> 00:07:26.462 There is nothing that can be compared with Allah, 00:07:26.462 --> 00:07:29.692 And if there is none like him, Laysa kamithlihi shay'un, 00:07:29.927 --> 00:07:32.962 then how can you employ the concept of similitude? 00:07:33.308 --> 00:07:37.958 And without presumption and similitude, how can you define something which 00:07:37.958 --> 00:07:40.108 can neither be experienced or observed? 00:07:40.520 --> 00:07:46.440 Therefore, the Quran has guided us that a person should be taught from a point 00:07:46.440 --> 00:07:51.980 wherein he is compelled to think about God in a natural, 'fitri' way. 00:07:52.548 --> 00:07:56.548 Like his own existence, or that of other creatures, the manifestation of wisdom 00:07:56.548 --> 00:08:00.548 in those creatures, manifestation of nature, manifestation of divinity, 00:08:00.548 --> 00:08:02.558 manifestation of mercy in them. 00:08:02.558 --> 00:08:08.308 When a person tries to see this world, the more he dives into it, 00:08:08.308 --> 00:08:11.888 the sooner he accepts that there must be a creator of this universe. 00:08:11.888 --> 00:08:13.328 It is pertinent to mention that 00:08:13.328 --> 00:08:16.828 "It does not mean that there is a creator" but there should be creator. 00:08:16.828 --> 00:08:19.276 Only after that the call of the Prophets make sense to him. 00:08:19.607 --> 00:08:24.797 After that he comes to know about the inception, power, knowledge 00:08:24.797 --> 00:08:30.427 of Allah, as there is no other intellectual method for it. 00:08:31.194 --> 00:08:36.064 Prophets educate and introduce us in this regard. 00:08:36.463 --> 00:08:40.463 I had earlier explained that we must adopt this method, 00:08:40.463 --> 00:08:44.594 I tend to find reasons behind everything, and all the time, 00:08:44.594 --> 00:08:46.404 but what is the procedure for it? 00:08:46.404 --> 00:08:50.404 It is similar to the fact that people used to argue for centuries that 00:08:51.231 --> 00:08:55.231 how can revelations be supported by arguments. 00:08:55.597 --> 00:08:56.987 How can it be? 00:08:57.406 --> 00:08:59.256 A Prophet has an experience. 00:08:59.514 --> 00:09:03.514 God tried to establish a connect with a person, 00:09:03.514 --> 00:09:06.224 by appointing someone to develop that relation. 00:09:06.454 --> 00:09:10.454 The way something becomes an observation for us, likewise many verses are 00:09:10.454 --> 00:09:12.844 an act of observation for him. 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:17.159 Which among the aforementioned things are ever shown to us by the Prophet? 00:09:18.273 --> 00:09:19.663 None of it! 00:09:19.781 --> 00:09:20.861 Then what do we see? 00:09:20.861 --> 00:09:25.376 We listen to the voice and speech of the Prophet. 00:09:25.376 --> 00:09:27.753 We look at the character of the Prophet. 00:09:27.753 --> 00:09:32.286 We listen and observe the instructions about the religion from the Prophet. 00:09:32.653 --> 00:09:40.623 And after analyzing the extraordinary character, personality and knowledge 00:09:40.623 --> 00:09:47.110 of the Prophet, it becomes difficult to deny in light of knowledge and intellect 00:09:47.110 --> 00:09:50.759 that he can be no other than someone authorized by God. 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:55.335 And when this thing is established then, Rohe awaz e payambar mojiza ast 00:09:55.743 --> 00:09:59.743 and only after that he brings the instructions of God to people. 00:10:00.431 --> 00:10:02.761 The Prophet (pbuh) proclaims that he receives revelations from God, 00:10:02.761 --> 00:10:05.112 he claims to have seen the angels. 00:10:05.484 --> 00:10:09.484 None of this requires a logical argument for its justification. 00:10:10.160 --> 00:10:14.160 However, this simple narration is explained to all, that when God 00:10:14.160 --> 00:10:19.380 appoints his Prophet and declares that he is the creator of this world. 00:10:19.765 --> 00:10:24.425 Then whatever instruction God would give, they would not be beyond his power. 00:10:24.425 --> 00:10:28.195 If he created me, and thousands like me, 00:10:28.195 --> 00:10:33.665 God even claims to have created djinns and Angels. 00:10:34.047 --> 00:10:37.427 God talks about the capabilities bestowed upon his angels. 00:10:37.814 --> 00:10:41.074 God talks about the way he created djinn. 00:10:41.257 --> 00:10:43.077 What the reason to not accept this? 00:10:43.077 --> 00:10:49.557 But, if in this case, we try to apply the logical argumentation to prove djinn, 00:10:49.557 --> 00:10:51.777 then it would be wrong method employed. 00:10:52.024 --> 00:10:58.524 Unfortunately, in our traditions these methods were adopted in order to 00:10:58.524 --> 00:11:05.124 restrain your interlocutor by cooking up highly complicated and intricate texts. 00:11:05.848 --> 00:11:09.826 That is the reason all this became meaningless and spiritless gradually 00:11:10.266 --> 00:11:13.546 You can't find anything of this sort now, otherwise it should been a part of 00:11:13.546 --> 00:11:15.826 discussion, having a status of factual reality. 00:11:15.826 --> 00:11:17.772 What is still in practice as a factual reality? 00:11:17.772 --> 00:11:19.362 The innate argument of the Quran. 00:11:19.362 --> 00:11:22.372 It makes you think about your internal values, 00:11:22.642 --> 00:11:26.143 It related to you the story of the 'Ahd-e Alast' (Covenant with God). 00:11:26.143 --> 00:11:32.343 It says that if the memory of the covenant is forgotten by you, but its signs 00:11:32.343 --> 00:11:35.333 would still be found in your existence. 00:11:35.333 --> 00:11:38.323 And the Quran guides you to walk through these signs, 00:11:38.323 --> 00:11:43.723 introduces the creator's creatures, likewise with the universe. 00:11:43.723 --> 00:11:46.578 If you look in the Quran. 00:11:46.860 --> 00:11:50.860 The Quran presents a beautiful model to us by way of deductive logic 00:11:50.860 --> 00:11:52.602 and/or intellectual argumentation. 00:11:52.602 --> 00:11:57.452 This aforementioned argumentation is intuitive, deductive and also becomes 00:11:57.452 --> 00:12:02.102 sensory, once the judgment is manifested through the person of the Messenger. 00:12:02.881 --> 00:12:08.151 This is the argument that I have explained in great detail and I have even described 00:12:08.151 --> 00:12:10.381 this argument in my book Meezan. 00:12:10.689 --> 00:12:14.689 Where in my speech or in my book, have I detailed out anything of this sort 00:12:14.689 --> 00:12:17.449 in sync with what the kalam theologians say? 00:12:17.449 --> 00:12:20.279 Did I ever say anything like, If God can lie or not? 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:21.409 [Ilyas] Thank You Ghamidi Sahab. 00:12:21.409 --> 00:12:23.009 You have beautifully detailed out your point of view. 00:12:23.009 --> 00:12:26.479 In the last few seconds, I want you to please comment on this as a whole. 00:12:26.479 --> 00:12:30.479 In our society when some of our modern intellectuals and philosophers adopted 00:12:30.479 --> 00:12:36.309 this interpretation, many religious scholars rejected their interpretation 00:12:36.309 --> 00:12:41.849 if it didn't appear to be in line with their own understanding. For instance, 00:12:41.849 --> 00:12:45.539 Djin, Heaven and hell, like we discussed the works of Sir Syed, Parvez Saab, etc. 00:12:45.539 --> 00:12:47.969 Is it the same reason that they just have a scope of one possibility, 00:12:47.969 --> 00:12:49.539 There is no room for any other interpretation, 00:12:49.539 --> 00:12:50.451 and therefore they rejected it. 00:12:50.451 --> 00:12:52.011 [Ghamidi] Exactly, this is the case. 00:12:52.011 --> 00:12:56.011 The Quran has made it amply clear as to how to know the limits of your knowledge, 00:12:56.626 --> 00:12:59.786 to what degree one can rely on deductive logic. 00:12:59.962 --> 00:13:04.862 To what extend you have to pay attention towards your inner self and find 00:13:04.862 --> 00:13:07.512 the innate kind of knowledge that exists within you. 00:13:07.512 --> 00:13:11.512 And to reach the place from where the Prophets would guide you further. 00:13:12.104 --> 00:13:16.104 Each of these aforementioned situations have a level of intellectual argument 00:13:16.104 --> 00:13:21.474 and when this argument is ascertained, only then you enter the world of 00:13:21.474 --> 00:13:24.104 observation and experience. 00:13:24.463 --> 00:13:27.743 This is a matter of method, which method is to be employed? 00:13:27.743 --> 00:13:31.003 The method of argumentation mentioned in the Quran must be adopted. 00:13:31.003 --> 00:13:33.783 This method was adopted by Maulana Ameen Ahsan Islahi in his books, 00:13:33.783 --> 00:13:36.032 like in Haqeeqat-e Shirk, Haqeeqat-e Tawheed. 00:13:36.032 --> 00:13:38.972 This method was adopted in the his Tafseer Tadabbur-e Quran. 00:13:39.169 --> 00:13:41.829 We can find a lot of examples of these adopted methods, 00:13:41.829 --> 00:13:43.278 in the works of many scholars. 00:13:43.278 --> 00:13:45.227 I have also adopted the same method. 00:13:45.227 --> 00:13:47.717 It is a way to heal your heart. 00:13:47.717 --> 00:13:51.717 It becomes a message from God for the existence of humanity. 00:13:51.717 --> 00:13:53.787 The Quran has taught us this method. 00:13:53.787 --> 00:13:56.047 Therefore, I have tried to focus your attention on the 00:13:56.047 --> 00:13:57.597 way of arguments based on the Quran. 00:13:57.597 --> 00:14:00.867 Why would I not emphasize on the arguments that are backed by the Quran? 00:14:00.867 --> 00:14:04.277 I keep on saying that Quran is complete and enough to prove 00:14:04.277 --> 00:14:05.287 all its premises. 00:14:05.287 --> 00:14:08.057 We don't need to focus our attention towards anything else.