1 00:00:01,210 --> 00:00:03,790 Questions about God and the answers provided by Ilm al Kalam - PART 2 2 00:00:03,790 --> 00:00:05,323 by Javed Ahmad Ghamidi 3 00:00:05,323 --> 00:00:09,073 [Hassan Ilyas] Yesterday, I asked you a question related to hypothetical sentences 4 00:00:09,073 --> 00:00:11,313 that we often use in relation to God, nauzubillah (I seek refuge with Allah) 5 00:00:11,313 --> 00:00:15,630 that can Allah lie, or can He make a rock that even he cannot Himself lift. 6 00:00:15,630 --> 00:00:19,415 You detailed out your views on these discussions. 7 00:00:19,415 --> 00:00:21,955 There is a related aspect to it as well as a doubt, 8 00:00:21,955 --> 00:00:24,105 I want you to explain it to us in detail. 9 00:00:24,105 --> 00:00:28,755 When you are in a discussion related to the existence of God, 10 00:00:28,755 --> 00:00:31,275 the argument behind the proof for God's being, 11 00:00:31,275 --> 00:00:35,861 or the various aspects of atheism or agnosticism that are put forward. 12 00:00:36,201 --> 00:00:42,070 It is said that you logically refute the arguments with intellectual evidence. 13 00:00:42,070 --> 00:00:45,497 And the other party to the discussion is defeated by your refutations. 14 00:00:45,825 --> 00:00:48,685 My question to you today is that, 15 00:00:48,685 --> 00:00:51,435 Even you include these intellectual evidences & arguments in your discussions, 16 00:00:51,435 --> 00:00:55,250 Also, one has an impression, I would request you to include it in your answer 17 00:00:55,250 --> 00:00:58,355 People often say that Ghamidi Sahib conversation is very rational, 18 00:00:58,355 --> 00:01:00,595 logical, enlightened and intellectual. 19 00:01:00,867 --> 00:01:04,867 So, in your paradigm provides answers to these contemporary suspicions and doubts 20 00:01:04,867 --> 00:01:07,957 by way of intellectual and logical arguments. 21 00:01:08,133 --> 00:01:10,733 Then what happens to the natural, inherent arguments given by the Quran 22 00:01:10,733 --> 00:01:11,819 as you often claim? 23 00:01:12,434 --> 00:01:15,584 [Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] Don't you consider the simple, 'fitri' arguments given 24 00:01:15,584 --> 00:01:16,690 by the Quran as being rational? 25 00:01:17,340 --> 00:01:24,594 What I had earlier mentioned was that: things that evolve from a specific 26 00:01:24,594 --> 00:01:27,144 philosophical or logical background. 27 00:01:27,144 --> 00:01:31,205 People present these questions just so as to derive some enjoyment from them 28 00:01:31,205 --> 00:01:33,945 and in the process ridicule religion. 29 00:01:33,945 --> 00:01:41,475 These are the things that clearly convey that your addressee does not have the 30 00:01:41,475 --> 00:01:47,865 perception, attitude, or an acumen of interest to understand or 31 00:01:47,865 --> 00:01:52,200 dive into something of this kind of discourse. 32 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,808 In that case you should try to ignore or excuse yourself from such arguments. 33 00:01:55,808 --> 00:01:57,838 Arguments will have there own significance. 34 00:01:57,838 --> 00:02:00,178 The Quran itself is full of reasoning, 35 00:02:00,512 --> 00:02:02,152 But what sort of reasoning? 36 00:02:03,140 --> 00:02:05,849 All I had explained was the reasoning within the Quran itself. 37 00:02:05,999 --> 00:02:09,119 I have often explicated the reasoning that the Quran puts forth. 38 00:02:09,564 --> 00:02:14,339 Infact, I have penned it down in my book Meezan. 39 00:02:15,115 --> 00:02:18,995 If you read the chapter on "Belief in Allah" in my book, Meezan. 40 00:02:19,204 --> 00:02:22,154 I have explained in detail that how 41 00:02:22,154 --> 00:02:25,164 God has presented arguments about his own existence. 42 00:02:25,918 --> 00:02:29,528 That is the form of reasoning that I term as Fitri "intuitive" reasoning. 43 00:02:30,167 --> 00:02:33,487 The argumentation that is based on common sense premises. 44 00:02:34,690 --> 00:02:39,279 It is evident that when we focus our attention towards God's Being and say that 45 00:02:39,279 --> 00:02:43,279 look around the world, try to comprehend what is around you, 46 00:02:43,279 --> 00:02:47,279 try to look at your own existence and understand how God has bestowed 47 00:02:47,279 --> 00:02:51,879 different abilities and wisdom to different creatures in the universe. 48 00:02:52,201 --> 00:02:54,459 So, aren't we engaging in a reasoning process? 49 00:02:54,459 --> 00:02:57,939 I was actually making a comment on the method of reasoning. 50 00:02:58,533 --> 00:03:02,533 I have never said that you should accept the premises of religion 51 00:03:02,533 --> 00:03:03,973 without even thinking. 52 00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:08,920 Rather, I was trying to throw light on how the Quran educates us 53 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:11,692 to engage in reasoning in religion and religious affairs. 54 00:03:12,595 --> 00:03:17,435 There are two types of things: the first one is the knowledge that is 55 00:03:17,435 --> 00:03:23,411 limited to our own understanding, and the basis of argumentation is only 56 00:03:23,411 --> 00:03:27,411 our own observation or experience. 57 00:03:28,399 --> 00:03:32,399 In fact, this way of argumentation is also adopted in the religion. 58 00:03:32,761 --> 00:03:36,999 For instance, there are few things that have been prohibited in the religion. 59 00:03:37,270 --> 00:03:41,360 Why are these things prohibited in the religion? 60 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:42,746 What are the basis for it? 61 00:03:42,967 --> 00:03:45,756 If you can base your argument on why certain things are prohibited 62 00:03:45,756 --> 00:03:47,866 in religion on experience or observation, then you may do that. 63 00:03:48,268 --> 00:03:53,796 Certain things are related to the world that is hidden from us and 64 00:03:53,796 --> 00:03:59,480 we cannot see it, or else we cannot observe or experience it. 65 00:03:59,998 --> 00:04:02,768 Similarly, same is the case with the being of God. 66 00:04:02,957 --> 00:04:07,627 Although, it is not possible the God can be shown or else you can 67 00:04:07,627 --> 00:04:10,697 be called up to the heavens to observe God or his being. 68 00:04:10,697 --> 00:04:13,565 So, here in this case we will make use of deductive reasoning 69 00:04:13,565 --> 00:04:16,975 How does the Quran educate us as to how we can make 70 00:04:16,975 --> 00:04:19,225 a deductive inference in relation to God? 71 00:04:19,512 --> 00:04:22,872 The methods employed by our Kalam theologians and the experts of logic 72 00:04:22,872 --> 00:04:26,872 do not relate to what has been mentioned in the Quran. 73 00:04:26,872 --> 00:04:30,872 Of course I was not having a detailed discussion at that point in time, 74 00:04:30,872 --> 00:04:33,832 you had asked me a question and I was answering that briefly. 75 00:04:33,832 --> 00:04:37,832 In reality, ancient philosophy paved the way for discussions and 76 00:04:37,832 --> 00:04:39,502 assumptions in this matter. 77 00:04:39,869 --> 00:04:44,650 If you pay attention, modern science has rejected all of it. 78 00:04:45,471 --> 00:04:49,251 These things were neither based on experience nor observation, 79 00:04:49,251 --> 00:04:51,483 then what was the real basis of these things? 80 00:04:51,483 --> 00:04:54,633 For instance, look at the philosophy of idealism by Plato, 81 00:04:54,991 --> 00:04:58,201 even Aristotle denied it immediately after him. 82 00:04:58,201 --> 00:05:01,311 And he clarified that in the philosophy of idealism, 83 00:05:01,311 --> 00:05:04,052 ideas or mental images are considered at par with reality. 84 00:05:04,052 --> 00:05:08,821 If we try to culminate all the philosophies of metaphysics in one word, 85 00:05:08,821 --> 00:05:10,141 then this is it. 86 00:05:10,141 --> 00:05:15,211 In the philosophy of idealism, majorly mental states or realms are 87 00:05:15,211 --> 00:05:16,591 considered as real. 88 00:05:16,944 --> 00:05:20,944 And there has been such a logical connection among the mental state 89 00:05:20,944 --> 00:05:26,304 and the reality which corresponds to that of a fictional author. 90 00:05:26,831 --> 00:05:28,301 What does he do? 91 00:05:28,505 --> 00:05:33,888 He creates the plot, circumstances out of his own intellectual imagination and 92 00:05:33,888 --> 00:05:37,888 also tries to visualize the characters from his mental images and creates 93 00:05:37,888 --> 00:05:45,268 such a mutual relationship that just like when we read a novel or a story we feel 94 00:05:45,268 --> 00:05:49,218 like we are living a real world and all the characters in it are real. 95 00:05:49,218 --> 00:05:53,218 Therefore, the philosophy of metaphysics which was even adopted by the 96 00:05:53,218 --> 00:05:59,228 masters of Sufism was based on this fancy and imaginative interpretations. 97 00:05:59,228 --> 00:06:01,008 [Ilyas] Please elaborate about takhayul (imagination)? 98 00:06:01,008 --> 00:06:04,748 [Ghamidi] Those things that do that encompass your experience or observation, 99 00:06:04,748 --> 00:06:06,608 it is an imaginative world that you create on your own. 100 00:06:06,608 --> 00:06:08,604 All of poetry is based on Takhayul (imagination). 101 00:06:08,604 --> 00:06:11,585 Imagination has its own beauty, but for poetry. 102 00:06:11,964 --> 00:06:14,314 Not for the discovery of facts and reality. 103 00:06:14,628 --> 00:06:18,628 So, when this method was adopted then these sort of logical questions were also 104 00:06:18,628 --> 00:06:22,628 included in it, i.e. to measure the divinity of God. 105 00:06:22,651 --> 00:06:24,861 To define the knowledge of God. 106 00:06:25,109 --> 00:06:28,634 To contain the existence of God, who is transcendent, 107 00:06:28,634 --> 00:06:31,784 within the limit of space and time. 108 00:06:31,784 --> 00:06:35,784 I have quite often tried to throw some light and make people pay attention 109 00:06:35,784 --> 00:06:37,433 to these sort of things. 110 00:06:37,433 --> 00:06:39,466 "Ayaz Qadr-e-Khud Ba-Shanas" 111 00:06:39,466 --> 00:06:42,191 The Quran has taught us a great lesson, 112 00:06:42,191 --> 00:06:46,191 When people started to raise questions on a very serious issue then the Quran 113 00:06:46,191 --> 00:06:48,601 gave a response to it in a concise way. 114 00:06:48,601 --> 00:06:50,981 wama uteetum minal-ilmi illa qaleela 115 00:06:50,981 --> 00:06:57,241 i.e religion never proclaims that "come we will show you God" 116 00:06:57,241 --> 00:07:00,052 You would experience the divinity of God. 117 00:07:00,664 --> 00:07:04,664 Or else come to us and we have the capability to let you observe 118 00:07:04,984 --> 00:07:09,824 some of the attributes of Allah in the heavens, or that 119 00:07:09,892 --> 00:07:18,062 we can inscribe the existence of God by way of a sketch in front of you. 120 00:07:18,602 --> 00:07:22,602 None of this is real, rather the Quran clearly states that 121 00:07:23,372 --> 00:07:26,462 There is nothing that can be compared with Allah, 122 00:07:26,462 --> 00:07:29,692 And if there is none like him, Laysa kamithlihi shay'un, 123 00:07:29,927 --> 00:07:32,962 then how can you employ the concept of similitude? 124 00:07:33,308 --> 00:07:37,958 And without presumption and similitude, how can you define something which 125 00:07:37,958 --> 00:07:40,108 can neither be experienced or observed? 126 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:46,440 Therefore, the Quran has guided us that a person should be taught from a point 127 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:51,980 wherein he is compelled to think about God in a natural, 'fitri' way. 128 00:07:52,548 --> 00:07:56,548 Like his own existence, or that of other creatures, the manifestation of wisdom 129 00:07:56,548 --> 00:08:00,548 in those creatures, manifestation of nature, manifestation of divinity, 130 00:08:00,548 --> 00:08:02,558 manifestation of mercy in them. 131 00:08:02,558 --> 00:08:08,308 When a person tries to see this world, the more he dives into it, 132 00:08:08,308 --> 00:08:11,888 the sooner he accepts that there must be a creator of this universe. 133 00:08:11,888 --> 00:08:13,328 It is pertinent to mention that 134 00:08:13,328 --> 00:08:16,828 "It does not mean that there is a creator" but there should be creator. 135 00:08:16,828 --> 00:08:19,276 Only after that the call of the Prophets make sense to him. 136 00:08:19,607 --> 00:08:24,797 After that he comes to know about the inception, power, knowledge 137 00:08:24,797 --> 00:08:30,427 of Allah, as there is no other intellectual method for it. 138 00:08:31,194 --> 00:08:36,064 Prophets educate and introduce us in this regard. 139 00:08:36,463 --> 00:08:40,463 I had earlier explained that we must adopt this method, 140 00:08:40,463 --> 00:08:44,594 I tend to find reasons behind everything, and all the time, 141 00:08:44,594 --> 00:08:46,404 but what is the procedure for it? 142 00:08:46,404 --> 00:08:50,404 It is similar to the fact that people used to argue for centuries that 143 00:08:51,231 --> 00:08:55,231 how can revelations be supported by arguments. 144 00:08:55,597 --> 00:08:56,987 How can it be? 145 00:08:57,406 --> 00:08:59,256 A Prophet has an experience. 146 00:08:59,514 --> 00:09:03,514 God tried to establish a connect with a person, 147 00:09:03,514 --> 00:09:06,224 by appointing someone to develop that relation. 148 00:09:06,454 --> 00:09:10,454 The way something becomes an observation for us, likewise many verses are 149 00:09:10,454 --> 00:09:12,844 an act of observation for him. 150 00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:17,159 Which among the aforementioned things are ever shown to us by the Prophet? 151 00:09:18,273 --> 00:09:19,663 None of it! 152 00:09:19,781 --> 00:09:20,861 Then what do we see? 153 00:09:20,861 --> 00:09:25,376 We listen to the voice and speech of the Prophet. 154 00:09:25,376 --> 00:09:27,753 We look at the character of the Prophet. 155 00:09:27,753 --> 00:09:32,286 We listen and observe the instructions about the religion from the Prophet. 156 00:09:32,653 --> 00:09:40,623 And after analyzing the extraordinary character, personality and knowledge 157 00:09:40,623 --> 00:09:47,110 of the Prophet, it becomes difficult to deny in light of knowledge and intellect 158 00:09:47,110 --> 00:09:50,759 that he can be no other than someone authorized by God. 159 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:55,335 And when this thing is established then, Rohe awaz e payambar mojiza ast 160 00:09:55,743 --> 00:09:59,743 and only after that he brings the instructions of God to people. 161 00:10:00,431 --> 00:10:02,761 The Prophet (pbuh) proclaims that he receives revelations from God, 162 00:10:02,761 --> 00:10:05,112 he claims to have seen the angels. 163 00:10:05,484 --> 00:10:09,484 None of this requires a logical argument for its justification. 164 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,160 However, this simple narration is explained to all, that when God 165 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:19,380 appoints his Prophet and declares that he is the creator of this world. 166 00:10:19,765 --> 00:10:24,425 Then whatever instruction God would give, they would not be beyond his power. 167 00:10:24,425 --> 00:10:28,195 If he created me, and thousands like me, 168 00:10:28,195 --> 00:10:33,665 God even claims to have created djinns and Angels. 169 00:10:34,047 --> 00:10:37,427 God talks about the capabilities bestowed upon his angels. 170 00:10:37,814 --> 00:10:41,074 God talks about the way he created djinn. 171 00:10:41,257 --> 00:10:43,077 What the reason to not accept this? 172 00:10:43,077 --> 00:10:49,557 But, if in this case, we try to apply the logical argumentation to prove djinn, 173 00:10:49,557 --> 00:10:51,777 then it would be wrong method employed. 174 00:10:52,024 --> 00:10:58,524 Unfortunately, in our traditions these methods were adopted in order to 175 00:10:58,524 --> 00:11:05,124 restrain your interlocutor by cooking up highly complicated and intricate texts. 176 00:11:05,848 --> 00:11:09,826 That is the reason all this became meaningless and spiritless gradually 177 00:11:10,266 --> 00:11:13,546 You can't find anything of this sort now, otherwise it should been a part of 178 00:11:13,546 --> 00:11:15,826 discussion, having a status of factual reality. 179 00:11:15,826 --> 00:11:17,772 What is still in practice as a factual reality? 180 00:11:17,772 --> 00:11:19,362 The innate argument of the Quran. 181 00:11:19,362 --> 00:11:22,372 It makes you think about your internal values, 182 00:11:22,642 --> 00:11:26,143 It related to you the story of the 'Ahd-e Alast' (Covenant with God). 183 00:11:26,143 --> 00:11:32,343 It says that if the memory of the covenant is forgotten by you, but its signs 184 00:11:32,343 --> 00:11:35,333 would still be found in your existence. 185 00:11:35,333 --> 00:11:38,323 And the Quran guides you to walk through these signs, 186 00:11:38,323 --> 00:11:43,723 introduces the creator's creatures, likewise with the universe. 187 00:11:43,723 --> 00:11:46,578 If you look in the Quran. 188 00:11:46,860 --> 00:11:50,860 The Quran presents a beautiful model to us by way of deductive logic 189 00:11:50,860 --> 00:11:52,602 and/or intellectual argumentation. 190 00:11:52,602 --> 00:11:57,452 This aforementioned argumentation is intuitive, deductive and also becomes 191 00:11:57,452 --> 00:12:02,102 sensory, once the judgment is manifested through the person of the Messenger. 192 00:12:02,881 --> 00:12:08,151 This is the argument that I have explained in great detail and I have even described 193 00:12:08,151 --> 00:12:10,381 this argument in my book Meezan. 194 00:12:10,689 --> 00:12:14,689 Where in my speech or in my book, have I detailed out anything of this sort 195 00:12:14,689 --> 00:12:17,449 in sync with what the kalam theologians say? 196 00:12:17,449 --> 00:12:20,279 Did I ever say anything like, If God can lie or not? 197 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:21,409 [Ilyas] Thank You Ghamidi Sahab. 198 00:12:21,409 --> 00:12:23,009 You have beautifully detailed out your point of view. 199 00:12:23,009 --> 00:12:26,479 In the last few seconds, I want you to please comment on this as a whole. 200 00:12:26,479 --> 00:12:30,479 In our society when some of our modern intellectuals and philosophers adopted 201 00:12:30,479 --> 00:12:36,309 this interpretation, many religious scholars rejected their interpretation 202 00:12:36,309 --> 00:12:41,849 if it didn't appear to be in line with their own understanding. For instance, 203 00:12:41,849 --> 00:12:45,539 Djin, Heaven and hell, like we discussed the works of Sir Syed, Parvez Saab, etc. 204 00:12:45,539 --> 00:12:47,969 Is it the same reason that they just have a scope of one possibility, 205 00:12:47,969 --> 00:12:49,539 There is no room for any other interpretation, 206 00:12:49,539 --> 00:12:50,451 and therefore they rejected it. 207 00:12:50,451 --> 00:12:52,011 [Ghamidi] Exactly, this is the case. 208 00:12:52,011 --> 00:12:56,011 The Quran has made it amply clear as to how to know the limits of your knowledge, 209 00:12:56,626 --> 00:12:59,786 to what degree one can rely on deductive logic. 210 00:12:59,962 --> 00:13:04,862 To what extend you have to pay attention towards your inner self and find 211 00:13:04,862 --> 00:13:07,512 the innate kind of knowledge that exists within you. 212 00:13:07,512 --> 00:13:11,512 And to reach the place from where the Prophets would guide you further. 213 00:13:12,104 --> 00:13:16,104 Each of these aforementioned situations have a level of intellectual argument 214 00:13:16,104 --> 00:13:21,474 and when this argument is ascertained, only then you enter the world of 215 00:13:21,474 --> 00:13:24,104 observation and experience. 216 00:13:24,463 --> 00:13:27,743 This is a matter of method, which method is to be employed? 217 00:13:27,743 --> 00:13:31,003 The method of argumentation mentioned in the Quran must be adopted. 218 00:13:31,003 --> 00:13:33,783 This method was adopted by Maulana Ameen Ahsan Islahi in his books, 219 00:13:33,783 --> 00:13:36,032 like in Haqeeqat-e Shirk, Haqeeqat-e Tawheed. 220 00:13:36,032 --> 00:13:38,972 This method was adopted in the his Tafseer Tadabbur-e Quran. 221 00:13:39,169 --> 00:13:41,829 We can find a lot of examples of these adopted methods, 222 00:13:41,829 --> 00:13:43,278 in the works of many scholars. 223 00:13:43,278 --> 00:13:45,227 I have also adopted the same method. 224 00:13:45,227 --> 00:13:47,717 It is a way to heal your heart. 225 00:13:47,717 --> 00:13:51,717 It becomes a message from God for the existence of humanity. 226 00:13:51,717 --> 00:13:53,787 The Quran has taught us this method. 227 00:13:53,787 --> 00:13:56,047 Therefore, I have tried to focus your attention on the 228 00:13:56,047 --> 00:13:57,597 way of arguments based on the Quran. 229 00:13:57,597 --> 00:14:00,867 Why would I not emphasize on the arguments that are backed by the Quran? 230 00:14:00,867 --> 00:14:04,277 I keep on saying that Quran is complete and enough to prove 231 00:14:04,277 --> 00:14:05,287 all its premises. 232 00:14:05,287 --> 00:14:08,057 We don't need to focus our attention towards anything else.