0:00:01.210,0:00:03.790 Questions about God and the answers [br]provided by Ilm al Kalam - PART 2 0:00:03.790,0:00:05.323 by Javed Ahmad Ghamidi 0:00:05.323,0:00:09.073 [Hassan Ilyas] Yesterday, I asked you a [br]question related to hypothetical sentences 0:00:09.073,0:00:11.313 that we often use in relation to God, [br]nauzubillah (I seek refuge with Allah) 0:00:11.313,0:00:15.630 that can Allah lie, or can He make a rock[br]that even he cannot Himself lift. 0:00:15.630,0:00:19.415 You detailed out your views on these [br]discussions. 0:00:19.415,0:00:21.955 There is a related aspect to it as well [br]as a doubt, 0:00:21.955,0:00:24.105 I want you to explain it to us in detail. 0:00:24.105,0:00:28.755 When you are in a discussion related to[br]the existence of God, 0:00:28.755,0:00:31.275 the argument behind the proof for [br]God's being, 0:00:31.275,0:00:35.861 or the various aspects of atheism or [br]agnosticism that are put forward. 0:00:36.201,0:00:42.070 It is said that you logically refute[br]the arguments with intellectual evidence. 0:00:42.070,0:00:45.497 And the other party to the discussion is[br]defeated by your refutations. 0:00:45.825,0:00:48.685 My question to you today is that, 0:00:48.685,0:00:51.435 Even you include these intellectual [br]evidences & arguments in your discussions, 0:00:51.435,0:00:55.250 Also, one has an impression, I would [br]request you to include it in your answer 0:00:55.250,0:00:58.355 People often say that Ghamidi Sahib [br]conversation is very rational, 0:00:58.355,0:01:00.595 logical, enlightened and intellectual. 0:01:00.867,0:01:04.867 So, in your paradigm provides answers to [br]these contemporary suspicions and doubts 0:01:04.867,0:01:07.957 by way of intellectual and logical [br]arguments. 0:01:08.133,0:01:10.733 Then what happens to the natural, inherent [br]arguments given by the Quran 0:01:10.733,0:01:11.819 as you often claim? 0:01:12.434,0:01:15.584 [Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] Don't you consider [br]the simple, 'fitri' arguments given 0:01:15.584,0:01:16.690 by the Quran as being rational? 0:01:17.340,0:01:24.594 What I had earlier mentioned was that:[br]things that evolve from a specific 0:01:24.594,0:01:27.144 philosophical or logical background. 0:01:27.144,0:01:31.205 People present these questions just so as[br]to derive some enjoyment from them 0:01:31.205,0:01:33.945 and in the process ridicule religion. 0:01:33.945,0:01:41.475 These are the things that clearly convey [br]that your addressee does not have the 0:01:41.475,0:01:47.865 perception, attitude, or an acumen of [br]interest to understand or 0:01:47.865,0:01:52.200 dive into something of this kind of[br]discourse. 0:01:52.200,0:01:55.808 In that case you should try to ignore or [br]excuse yourself from such arguments. 0:01:55.808,0:01:57.838 Arguments will have there own [br]significance. 0:01:57.838,0:02:00.178 The Quran itself is full of [br]reasoning, 0:02:00.512,0:02:02.152 But what sort of reasoning? 0:02:03.140,0:02:05.849 All I had explained was the reasoning[br]within the Quran itself. 0:02:05.999,0:02:09.119 I have often explicated the reasoning[br]that the Quran puts forth. 0:02:09.564,0:02:14.339 Infact, I have penned it down [br]in my book Meezan. 0:02:15.115,0:02:18.995 If you read the chapter on [br]"Belief in Allah" in my book, Meezan. 0:02:19.204,0:02:22.154 I have explained in detail that how 0:02:22.154,0:02:25.164 God has presented arguments [br]about his own existence. 0:02:25.918,0:02:29.528 That is the form of reasoning that I term [br]as Fitri "intuitive" reasoning. 0:02:30.167,0:02:33.487 The argumentation that is based on [br]common sense premises. 0:02:34.690,0:02:39.279 It is evident that when we focus our [br]attention towards God's Being and say that 0:02:39.279,0:02:43.279 look around the world, try to comprehend [br]what is around you, 0:02:43.279,0:02:47.279 try to look at your own existence and[br]understand how God has bestowed 0:02:47.279,0:02:51.879 different abilities and wisdom to [br]different creatures in the universe. 0:02:52.201,0:02:54.459 So, aren't we engaging in a reasoning[br]process? 0:02:54.459,0:02:57.939 I was actually making a comment on the [br]method of reasoning. 0:02:58.533,0:03:02.533 I have never said that you should[br]accept the premises of religion 0:03:02.533,0:03:03.973 without even thinking. 0:03:04.920,0:03:08.920 Rather, I was trying to throw light on [br]how the Quran educates us 0:03:08.920,0:03:11.692 to engage in reasoning in religion and [br]religious affairs. 0:03:12.595,0:03:17.435 There are two types of things: the [br]first one is the knowledge that is 0:03:17.435,0:03:23.411 limited to our own understanding, and [br]the basis of argumentation is only 0:03:23.411,0:03:27.411 our own observation or experience. 0:03:28.399,0:03:32.399 In fact, this way of argumentation[br]is also adopted in the religion. 0:03:32.761,0:03:36.999 For instance, there are few things that [br]have been prohibited in the religion. 0:03:37.270,0:03:41.360 Why are these things prohibited in the [br]religion? 0:03:41.360,0:03:42.746 What are the basis for it? 0:03:42.967,0:03:45.756 If you can base your argument on [br]why certain things are prohibited 0:03:45.756,0:03:47.866 in religion on experience or [br]observation, then you may do that. 0:03:48.268,0:03:53.796 Certain things are related to the world [br]that is hidden from us and 0:03:53.796,0:03:59.480 we cannot see it, or else we cannot [br]observe or experience it. 0:03:59.998,0:04:02.768 Similarly, same is the case with the being[br]of God. 0:04:02.957,0:04:07.627 Although, it is not possible the God can [br]be shown or else you can 0:04:07.627,0:04:10.697 be called up to the heavens to observe [br]God or his being. 0:04:10.697,0:04:13.565 So, here in this case we will make use[br]of deductive reasoning 0:04:13.565,0:04:16.975 How does the Quran educate us as [br]to how we can make 0:04:16.975,0:04:19.225 a deductive inference in relation to God? 0:04:19.512,0:04:22.872 The methods employed by our Kalam[br]theologians and the experts of logic 0:04:22.872,0:04:26.872 do not relate to what has been [br]mentioned in the Quran. 0:04:26.872,0:04:30.872 Of course I was not having a detailed [br]discussion at that point in time, 0:04:30.872,0:04:33.832 you had asked me a question and I was [br]answering that briefly. 0:04:33.832,0:04:37.832 In reality, ancient philosophy paved the[br]way for discussions and 0:04:37.832,0:04:39.502 assumptions in this matter. 0:04:39.869,0:04:44.650 If you pay attention, modern [br]science has rejected all of it. 0:04:45.471,0:04:49.251 These things were neither based[br]on experience nor observation, 0:04:49.251,0:04:51.483 then what was the real basis of [br]these things? 0:04:51.483,0:04:54.633 For instance, look at the philosophy of[br]idealism by Plato, 0:04:54.991,0:04:58.201 even Aristotle denied it immediately[br]after him. 0:04:58.201,0:05:01.311 And he clarified that in the philosophy [br]of idealism, 0:05:01.311,0:05:04.052 ideas or mental images are considered at[br]par with reality. 0:05:04.052,0:05:08.821 If we try to culminate all the [br]philosophies of metaphysics in one word, 0:05:08.821,0:05:10.141 then this is it. 0:05:10.141,0:05:15.211 In the philosophy of idealism, majorly [br]mental states or realms are 0:05:15.211,0:05:16.591 considered as real. 0:05:16.944,0:05:20.944 And there has been such a logical[br]connection among the mental state 0:05:20.944,0:05:26.304 and the reality which corresponds to that[br]of a fictional author. 0:05:26.831,0:05:28.301 What does he do? 0:05:28.505,0:05:33.888 He creates the plot, circumstances out of[br]his own intellectual imagination and 0:05:33.888,0:05:37.888 also tries to visualize the characters [br]from his mental images and creates 0:05:37.888,0:05:45.268 such a mutual relationship that just like[br]when we read a novel or a story we feel 0:05:45.268,0:05:49.218 like we are living a real world and [br]all the characters in it are real. 0:05:49.218,0:05:53.218 Therefore, the philosophy of metaphysics[br]which was even adopted by the 0:05:53.218,0:05:59.228 masters of Sufism was based on this fancy[br]and imaginative interpretations. 0:05:59.228,0:06:01.008 [Ilyas] Please elaborate about takhayul [br](imagination)? 0:06:01.008,0:06:04.748 [Ghamidi] Those things that do that[br]encompass your experience or observation, 0:06:04.748,0:06:06.608 it is an imaginative world that you create[br]on your own. 0:06:06.608,0:06:08.604 All of poetry is based on Takhayul [br](imagination). 0:06:08.604,0:06:11.585 Imagination has its own beauty, but[br]for poetry. 0:06:11.964,0:06:14.314 Not for the discovery of facts and [br]reality. 0:06:14.628,0:06:18.628 So, when this method was adopted then[br]these sort of logical questions were also 0:06:18.628,0:06:22.628 included in it, i.e. to measure the [br]divinity of God. 0:06:22.651,0:06:24.861 To define the knowledge of God. 0:06:25.109,0:06:28.634 To contain the existence of God, who is[br]transcendent, 0:06:28.634,0:06:31.784 within the limit of space and time. 0:06:31.784,0:06:35.784 I have quite often tried to throw some[br]light and make people pay attention 0:06:35.784,0:06:37.433 to these sort of things. 0:06:37.433,0:06:39.466 "Ayaz Qadr-e-Khud Ba-Shanas" 0:06:39.466,0:06:42.191 The Quran has taught us a great lesson, 0:06:42.191,0:06:46.191 When people started to raise questions[br]on a very serious issue then the Quran 0:06:46.191,0:06:48.601 gave a response to it in a concise way. 0:06:48.601,0:06:50.981 wama uteetum minal-ilmi illa qaleela 0:06:50.981,0:06:57.241 i.e religion never proclaims that[br]"come we will show you God" 0:06:57.241,0:07:00.052 You would experience the divinity[br]of God. 0:07:00.664,0:07:04.664 Or else come to us and we have the [br]capability to let you observe 0:07:04.984,0:07:09.824 some of the attributes of Allah in [br]the heavens, or that 0:07:09.892,0:07:18.062 we can inscribe the existence of God[br]by way of a sketch in front of you. 0:07:18.602,0:07:22.602 None of this is real, rather the Quran[br]clearly states that 0:07:23.372,0:07:26.462 There is nothing that can be compared [br]with Allah, 0:07:26.462,0:07:29.692 And if there is none like him,[br]Laysa kamithlihi shay'un, 0:07:29.927,0:07:32.962 then how can you employ the[br]concept of similitude? 0:07:33.308,0:07:37.958 And without presumption and similitude,[br]how can you define something which 0:07:37.958,0:07:40.108 can neither be experienced or[br]observed? 0:07:40.520,0:07:46.440 Therefore, the Quran has guided us that[br]a person should be taught from a point 0:07:46.440,0:07:51.980 wherein he is compelled to think about God[br]in a natural, 'fitri' way. 0:07:52.548,0:07:56.548 Like his own existence, or that of other[br]creatures, the manifestation of wisdom 0:07:56.548,0:08:00.548 in those creatures, manifestation of [br]nature, manifestation of divinity, 0:08:00.548,0:08:02.558 manifestation of mercy in them. 0:08:02.558,0:08:08.308 When a person tries to see this [br]world, the more he dives into it, 0:08:08.308,0:08:11.888 the sooner he accepts that there must[br]be a creator of this universe. 0:08:11.888,0:08:13.328 It is pertinent to mention that 0:08:13.328,0:08:16.828 "It does not mean that there is a creator"[br]but there should be creator. 0:08:16.828,0:08:19.276 Only after that the call of the[br]Prophets make sense to him. 0:08:19.607,0:08:24.797 After that he comes to know about [br]the inception, power, knowledge 0:08:24.797,0:08:30.427 of Allah, as there is no other [br]intellectual method for it. 0:08:31.194,0:08:36.064 Prophets educate and introduce us in this[br]regard. 0:08:36.463,0:08:40.463 I had earlier explained that we[br]must adopt this method, 0:08:40.463,0:08:44.594 I tend to find reasons behind everything,[br]and all the time, 0:08:44.594,0:08:46.404 but what is the procedure for it? 0:08:46.404,0:08:50.404 It is similar to the fact that people[br]used to argue for centuries that 0:08:51.231,0:08:55.231 how can revelations be supported by[br]arguments. 0:08:55.597,0:08:56.987 How can it be? 0:08:57.406,0:08:59.256 A Prophet has an experience. 0:08:59.514,0:09:03.514 God tried to establish a connect with [br]a person, 0:09:03.514,0:09:06.224 by appointing someone to develop[br]that relation. 0:09:06.454,0:09:10.454 The way something becomes an observation[br]for us, likewise many verses are 0:09:10.454,0:09:12.844 an act of observation for him. 0:09:13.159,0:09:17.159 Which among the aforementioned things are[br]ever shown to us by the Prophet? 0:09:18.273,0:09:19.663 None of it! 0:09:19.781,0:09:20.861 Then what do we see? 0:09:20.861,0:09:25.376 We listen to the voice and speech of[br]the Prophet. 0:09:25.376,0:09:27.753 We look at the character of the Prophet. 0:09:27.753,0:09:32.286 We listen and observe the instructions[br]about the religion from the Prophet. 0:09:32.653,0:09:40.623 And after analyzing the extraordinary [br]character, personality and knowledge 0:09:40.623,0:09:47.110 of the Prophet, it becomes difficult to [br]deny in light of knowledge and intellect 0:09:47.110,0:09:50.759 that he can be no other than [br]someone authorized by God. 0:09:50.759,0:09:55.335 And when this thing is established[br]then, Rohe awaz e payambar mojiza ast 0:09:55.743,0:09:59.743 and only after that he brings [br]the instructions of God to people. 0:10:00.431,0:10:02.761 The Prophet (pbuh) proclaims that [br]he receives revelations from God, 0:10:02.761,0:10:05.112 he claims to have seen the angels. 0:10:05.484,0:10:09.484 None of this requires a logical [br]argument for its justification. 0:10:10.160,0:10:14.160 However, this simple narration is [br]explained to all, that when God 0:10:14.160,0:10:19.380 appoints his Prophet and declares that[br]he is the creator of this world. 0:10:19.765,0:10:24.425 Then whatever instruction God would give,[br]they would not be beyond his power. 0:10:24.425,0:10:28.195 If he created me, and thousands like me, 0:10:28.195,0:10:33.665 God even claims to have created djinns[br]and Angels. 0:10:34.047,0:10:37.427 God talks about the capabilities bestowed[br]upon his angels. 0:10:37.814,0:10:41.074 God talks about the way he created djinn. 0:10:41.257,0:10:43.077 What the reason to not accept this? 0:10:43.077,0:10:49.557 But, if in this case, we try to apply the [br]logical argumentation to prove djinn, 0:10:49.557,0:10:51.777 then it would be wrong method employed. 0:10:52.024,0:10:58.524 Unfortunately, in our traditions these [br]methods were adopted in order to 0:10:58.524,0:11:05.124 restrain your interlocutor by cooking up [br]highly complicated and intricate texts. 0:11:05.848,0:11:09.826 That is the reason all this became [br]meaningless and spiritless gradually 0:11:10.266,0:11:13.546 You can't find anything of this sort now,[br]otherwise it should been a part of 0:11:13.546,0:11:15.826 discussion, having a status of [br]factual reality. 0:11:15.826,0:11:17.772 What is still in practice as a [br]factual reality? 0:11:17.772,0:11:19.362 The innate argument of the Quran. 0:11:19.362,0:11:22.372 It makes you think about your [br]internal values, 0:11:22.642,0:11:26.143 It related to you the story of the[br]'Ahd-e Alast' (Covenant with God). 0:11:26.143,0:11:32.343 It says that if the memory of the covenant[br]is forgotten by you, but its signs 0:11:32.343,0:11:35.333 would still be found in your existence. 0:11:35.333,0:11:38.323 And the Quran guides you to walk through [br]these signs, 0:11:38.323,0:11:43.723 introduces the creator's creatures, [br]likewise with the universe. 0:11:43.723,0:11:46.578 If you look in the Quran. 0:11:46.860,0:11:50.860 The Quran presents a beautiful model to us[br]by way of deductive logic 0:11:50.860,0:11:52.602 and/or intellectual argumentation. 0:11:52.602,0:11:57.452 This aforementioned argumentation is [br]intuitive, deductive and also becomes 0:11:57.452,0:12:02.102 sensory, once the judgment is manifested[br]through the person of the Messenger. 0:12:02.881,0:12:08.151 This is the argument that I have explained[br]in great detail and I have even described 0:12:08.151,0:12:10.381 this argument in my book Meezan. 0:12:10.689,0:12:14.689 Where in my speech or in my book,[br]have I detailed out anything of this sort 0:12:14.689,0:12:17.449 in sync with what the kalam theologians [br]say? 0:12:17.449,0:12:20.279 Did I ever say anything like, [br]If God can lie or not? 0:12:20.279,0:12:21.409 [Ilyas] Thank You Ghamidi Sahab. 0:12:21.409,0:12:23.009 You have beautifully detailed out[br]your point of view. 0:12:23.009,0:12:26.479 In the last few seconds, I want you to[br]please comment on this as a whole. 0:12:26.479,0:12:30.479 In our society when some of our modern [br]intellectuals and philosophers adopted 0:12:30.479,0:12:36.309 this interpretation, many religious [br]scholars rejected their interpretation 0:12:36.309,0:12:41.849 if it didn't appear to be in line with[br]their own understanding. For instance, 0:12:41.849,0:12:45.539 Djin, Heaven and hell, like we discussed [br]the works of Sir Syed, Parvez Saab, etc. 0:12:45.539,0:12:47.969 Is it the same reason that they just have[br]a scope of one possibility, 0:12:47.969,0:12:49.539 There is no room for any other [br]interpretation, 0:12:49.539,0:12:50.451 and therefore they rejected it. 0:12:50.451,0:12:52.011 [Ghamidi] Exactly, this is the case. 0:12:52.011,0:12:56.011 The Quran has made it amply clear as to[br]how to know the limits of your knowledge, 0:12:56.626,0:12:59.786 to what degree one can rely on [br]deductive logic. 0:12:59.962,0:13:04.862 To what extend you have to pay attention[br]towards your inner self and find 0:13:04.862,0:13:07.512 the innate kind of knowledge that exists[br]within you. 0:13:07.512,0:13:11.512 And to reach the place from where the [br]Prophets would guide you further. 0:13:12.104,0:13:16.104 Each of these aforementioned situations[br]have a level of intellectual argument 0:13:16.104,0:13:21.474 and when this argument is ascertained,[br]only then you enter the world of 0:13:21.474,0:13:24.104 observation and experience. 0:13:24.463,0:13:27.743 This is a matter of method,[br]which method is to be employed? 0:13:27.743,0:13:31.003 The method of argumentation mentioned [br]in the Quran must be adopted. 0:13:31.003,0:13:33.783 This method was adopted by Maulana [br]Ameen Ahsan Islahi in his books, 0:13:33.783,0:13:36.032 like in Haqeeqat-e Shirk, [br]Haqeeqat-e Tawheed. 0:13:36.032,0:13:38.972 This method was adopted in the [br]his Tafseer Tadabbur-e Quran. 0:13:39.169,0:13:41.829 We can find a lot of examples of these [br]adopted methods, 0:13:41.829,0:13:43.278 in the works of many scholars. 0:13:43.278,0:13:45.227 I have also adopted the same method. 0:13:45.227,0:13:47.717 It is a way to heal your heart. 0:13:47.717,0:13:51.717 It becomes a message from God for [br]the existence of humanity. 0:13:51.717,0:13:53.787 The Quran has taught us this method. 0:13:53.787,0:13:56.047 Therefore, I have tried to focus your[br]attention on the 0:13:56.047,0:13:57.597 way of arguments based on the Quran. 0:13:57.597,0:14:00.867 Why would I not emphasize on the [br]arguments that are backed by the Quran? 0:14:00.867,0:14:04.277 I keep on saying that Quran is [br]complete and enough to prove 0:14:04.277,0:14:05.287 all its premises. 0:14:05.287,0:14:08.057 We don't need to focus our attention[br]towards anything else.