9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
00:11[br]you're famously quoted often as saying[br]00:15[br]the future is already here it's just not[br]00:17[br]very evenly distributed this perpetual[br]00:20[br]toggling between nothing new you say[br]00:22[br]Under the Sun and everything having very[br]00:25[br]recently changed absolutely is perhaps[br]00:27[br]the central driving tension of my work I[br]00:30[br]don't know if you remember saying that[br]00:32[br]can you expand on that well I have that[br]00:45[br]you know as a sort of ordinary sense of[br]00:49[br]my waking waking day that you know I[br]00:54[br]mean I'm in the eternal world that[br]01:00[br]humans have been living in almost[br]01:04[br]forever and we're not we don't seem to[br]01:10[br]be that terribly advanced in terms of[br]01:14[br]how we deal with one another we were[br]01:17[br]still doing appalling things variously[br]01:21[br]around the world every every day and[br]01:26[br]simultaneously I'm waking up in the[br]01:29[br]morning[br]01:30[br]and poking at my iPad Mini and seeing[br]01:35[br]that someone in London has just remarked[br]01:38[br]on the weather and posted a photograph[br]01:41[br]of the sky so I suddenly have this this[br]01:44[br]and they that they did it the minute I[br]01:47[br]woke up so I'm suddenly looking at the[br]01:50[br]sky in London that some stranger[br]01:52[br]stranger took and described in a in[br]01:56[br]another poetic way and it's all[br]01:59[br]instantaneous and people never did that[br]02:02[br]before and that's all happening at top[br]02:07[br]that's all happening very near the apex[br]02:10[br]of a pyramid of once emergent[br]02:13[br]technologies that might have say at the[br]02:17[br]bottom you'd have have growing cereal[br]02:20[br]and above that you would have cities[br]02:25[br]which you can't do unless you could grow[br]02:27[br]and store cereal and above that you have[br]02:30[br]sewers without which your city died of[br]02:33[br]above a certain population of of cholera[br]02:37[br]and dysentery so we're up at the apex if[br]02:41[br]any of those other layers below win out[br]02:43[br]on us we don't die we forget that that[br]02:48[br]we're at the peak of peak of something[br]02:51[br]but we're supported by older[br]02:53[br]technologies that we no longer even[br]02:55[br]think of us as technologies so and I[br]03:01[br]think maybe professionally I have some[br]03:04[br]awareness of that every day or I try to[br]03:10[br]have are you frightened by that one I'm[br]03:17[br]anxious by Nature[br]03:21[br]you know I'm one of those there's sort[br]03:26[br]of hyper-vigilant people except when I'm[br]03:31[br]on those on those occasions when I'm[br]03:35[br]when I'm relaxed[br]03:37[br]but it's a bit scary but so is life and[br]03:42[br]it's it's it is what it is what it is[br]03:48[br]I think of what I do as a species of[br]03:52[br]naturalism not that it's not that it's[br]03:59[br]predictive or or trying to be prescient[br]04:04[br]but that I'm simply trying to describe a[br]04:06[br]sometimes the incomprehensible present[br]04:10[br]with the tool kits of science fiction[br]04:14[br]and futurology which seem totally[br]04:17[br]appropriate to this particular present[br]04:20[br]yeah I think we're on a Speedway of[br]04:26[br]Technology now and I don't know if[br]04:29[br]that's going to continue but it has been[br]04:31[br]for the past maybe ten years for me that[br]04:33[br]you you don't have anything you can play[br]04:36[br]anything on anymore you know and it[br]04:40[br]makes small bits of trouble for[br]04:42[br]novelists because in Victorian novels[br]04:46[br]the calling card falls behind the bureau[br]04:50[br]somebody's life is ruined and you could[br]04:53[br]write that for all your life and now if[br]04:55[br]you I had a student who had everybody[br]04:59[br]had flip phones in her novel by the time[br]05:01[br]it came out those were like antiques[br]05:04[br]might as well have them playing records[br]05:06[br]on gramophones yeah can I have a lot of[br]05:11[br]sympathy with that I think if I if a 12[br]05:15[br]year old reading Neuromancer today she'd[br]05:18[br]get to page 20 and go okay the whole[br]05:22[br]plot hinges around what happened to all[br]05:24[br]the cell phones[br]05:28[br]not press it yeah I remember you saying[br]05:35[br]that in some interview that you it was a[br]05:37[br]real oversight but who could have[br]05:40[br]predicted that that we walk around and[br]05:42[br]be available to everybody anytime there[br]05:45[br]was no no one but more more[br]05:47[br]interestingly I think is for a thought[br]05:51[br]account of difficult thought experiment[br]05:55[br]spend some time trying to imagine what[br]06:00[br]it would have been like if somehow[br]06:02[br]someone back in 1963 some science[br]06:06[br]fiction writer had received in her sleep[br]06:09[br]a completely accurate vision of our[br]06:14[br]state of cellular telephony today and[br]06:18[br]she wrote a novel that incorporated that[br]06:22[br]vision and took it to a publisher the[br]06:25[br]publisher said are you insane the[br]06:28[br]characters in this book spend all their[br]06:30[br]time looking at these tiny and tiny[br]06:33[br]television radios things in their[br]06:35[br]pockets and writing letters on them and[br]06:38[br]playing Angry Birds and they're never[br]06:41[br]alone no one is ever loved what will[br]06:44[br]people make I wonder we have been[br]06:48[br]wondering quite a lot recently what will[br]06:51[br]people make in 20 years of all the[br]06:53[br]fiction ever written in which people are[br]06:55[br]mostly alone most of their lives yeah[br]07:00[br]that the the the solitude will be[br]07:04[br]incomprehensible[br]07:06[br]I remember the year I don't know which[br]07:09[br]year it was in in London when the[br]07:11[br]solitude went away I I went to London in[br]07:17[br]the fall and I remember standing on[br]07:20[br]standing on a platform somewhere in[br]07:24[br]Kensington waiting for the Train and[br]07:26[br]looking at the English people not[br]07:29[br]speaking to one another and not making[br]07:32[br]eye contact[br]07:33[br]that's was there what from time[br]07:35[br]immemorial and I went away and I came[br]07:38[br]back a month later and they were all on[br]07:40[br]cell phones it just changed overnight[br]07:43[br]that solitude above London flew away and[br]07:47[br]I thought that was the moment the[br]07:50[br]extraordinary thing for me was that I[br]07:53[br]had actually seen it seeing it happen[br]07:56[br]no no one now remembers the night that[br]07:59[br]they turned on the broadcast television[br]08:01[br]in New York City but you know it changed[br]08:04[br]everything and it's never changed but do[br]08:10[br]you think cell phones will I mean you[br]08:11[br]didn't predict them can you produce[br]08:13[br]their demise I think that they will you[br]08:19[br]know assuming that if this goes on you[br]08:22[br]know I think we'll probably internalize[br]08:25[br]them as the the characters in the[br]08:30[br]further future have done in the in in[br]08:33[br]the peripheral they have them implanted[br]08:38[br]they don't know exactly where that sort[br]08:40[br]of the technology is distributed and[br]08:42[br]they experience them as a sort of[br]08:46[br]internalized head-up display where you[br]08:50[br]see you see who's calling in you you see[br]08:54[br]their sigil but I actually had to[br]08:57[br]develop that technology because when I[br]09:01[br]started the book I developed a much more[br]09:04[br]fully realized idea of fully[br]09:08[br]internalized cellular telephony that[br]09:13[br]makes that look really primitive but[br]09:15[br]what I found was it was so distracting[br]09:18[br]and took the took the readers so far[br]09:22[br]away from the narrative that it was just[br]09:24[br]impossible to use it so I deliberately[br]09:27[br]cranked their technology back I figured[br]09:31[br]it was about thirty years in order to[br]09:35[br]have something recognizable to[br]09:39[br]to a reader today I remember and and I[br]09:45[br]never could figure out how it worked[br]09:47[br]from Twitter first came out I think it[br]09:49[br]was in zero history were they have they[br]09:57[br]set up a private Twitter account that's[br]09:59[br]that was the first time I thought that[br]10:01[br]it has a kind of a lock nobody else can[br]10:03[br]join do you remember this[br]10:05[br]yes it's actually easy you could you[br]10:07[br]could you could do that any any Twitter[br]10:11[br]account can be set set to private so[br]10:17[br]that that no one can no one can follow[br]10:19[br]you unless you okay them if two people[br]10:23[br]do that mutually to the exclusion of[br]10:26[br]everything else and sir private life[br]10:28[br]yeah it's a it's a private line I[br]10:31[br]thought that was cool I still have both[br]10:35[br]of those accounts the accounts they is[br]10:38[br]because I knew that people would open[br]10:40[br]them if I - yeah yeah well your new[br]10:44[br]novel which you know you're here on your[br]10:47[br]tour the peripheral doesn't end run[br]10:51[br]around the blur between the president[br]10:53[br]future by taking place in your future[br]10:55[br]and a farther one a connection is[br]10:59[br]established between the two basically[br]11:02[br]through a wormhole in a video game[br]11:05[br]anyway is that would you had a describe[br]11:12[br]that is as correct and video games are[br]11:15[br]such that wealthy people have players[br]11:18[br]play them for them yes well I've to to[br]11:25[br]as you say there there are two two[br]11:30[br]futures that it's like a double scoop of[br]11:34[br]that whole science fiction and one is[br]11:39[br]one is a near future which is basically[br]11:42[br]winters[br]11:44[br]with better smartphones or justified[br]11:48[br]with more drones and then there's the[br]11:53[br]further one which is my take on on how[br]12:03[br]badly human beings could manage to mess[br]12:07[br]up the the so called singularity so I[br]12:12[br]guess it's a very screwed up singularity[br]12:15[br]and it's on the far side of an[br]12:22[br]apocalyptic event of sorts although[br]12:27[br]while I was working on that is something[br]12:30[br]that the strut that I struck me that I'd[br]12:33[br]never noticed before[br]12:34[br]is that our cultural model of of the[br]12:38[br]apocalypse is unique causal and a very[br]12:41[br]brief duration so Triffids come world[br]12:45[br]ends post apocalypse the United States[br]12:52[br]and USSR nuke each other to mutual[br]12:55[br]destruction post apocalypse they'd like[br]12:59[br]it it's one thing it happens and I saw[br]13:03[br]what if the what if the apocalypse were[br]13:09[br]multi causal complexly systemic it took[br]13:14[br]40 or 50 years but actually I initially[br]13:19[br]thought what if it took 400 years or 500[br]13:22[br]years but that was too much time for my[br]13:27[br]story so I got it down to four I got it[br]13:30[br]down to 40 there's another reason why[br]13:33[br]that wouldn't happen then I can see it[br]13:37[br]actually is a lot more likely than a[br]13:40[br]brief uni causal event but we I don't[br]13:45[br]think we have the cultural equipment to[br]13:49[br]hold that idea readily in[br]13:52[br]heads it's not part of our mythology in[br]13:56[br]spite of the possibility that we might[br]13:59[br]now already be living in it and that[br]14:04[br]that fact might account for those creepy[br]14:08[br]feelings that some of you have been[br]14:12[br]having myself included and you call that[br]14:19[br]the jackpot in the book heads[br]14:21[br]it's the jackpot yes the jerk the[br]14:24[br]jackpot and when the survivors of the[br]14:31[br]jackpot have tended to be able to afford[br]14:35[br]it when they come out after I won't go[br]14:41[br]into it what saves their bacon but when[br]14:45[br]they come out and see the dog that many[br]14:48[br]people left there they sort of say wow[br]14:51[br]man we dodged the bullet that was really[br]14:54[br]close and the bullet they dodged was was[br]14:59[br]Malthusian in nature them simply that[br]15:02[br]there were too many people on the planet[br]15:05[br]to continue operating that way and I[br]15:11[br]think that's the way the survivors of[br]15:14[br]that sort of apocalypse would likely[br]15:17[br]likely view it like shoo that was tragic[br]15:21[br]but here we are given given human nature[br]15:30[br]yeah I I think what you're I think what[br]15:33[br]you're saying is is more likely to[br]15:35[br]happen and that it's already begun you[br]15:38[br]know we're just the frog in the water[br]15:40[br]and the water is getting heated up but I[br]15:44[br]wanted this I head for the rum but I[br]15:46[br]want to ask you now you and I are about[br]15:50[br]the same age or my brother's age and we[br]15:53[br]grew up on the same tropes about the[br]15:55[br]future gleaming kitchens and mama rails[br]15:58[br]for public transportation help as we're[br]16:00[br]all going to have a helicopter on the[br]16:01[br]roof but it'd all be deaf[br]16:03[br]and then somewhere in the late seventies[br]16:07[br]around[br]16:08[br]I remember that bar scene in Star Wars[br]16:10[br]and Mad Max the vision the the kind of[br]16:14[br]pop entertainment vision went from[br]16:18[br]utopian to dystopian and particularly[br]16:22[br]techno dystopian machines gone bad girls[br]16:28[br]gone wild machines gone bad hell what do[br]16:32[br]you think a counter for that shift[br]16:34[br]oh well it's come you know culturally[br]16:40[br]its complex like the excuse me the the[br]16:46[br]first Star Wars film came out in 1977[br]16:51[br]so it was confirming us with the Sex[br]16:55[br]Pistols and it was like a big to me this[br]17:01[br]this guy quit appallingly retrograde[br]17:07[br]nostalgia retro retro future it was[br]17:12[br]everything I didn't want science fiction[br]17:16[br]to be in spite of the cantina scene and[br]17:21[br]it was riffing it was riffing on the[br]17:25[br]1930s Buck Rogers serials that ran every[br]17:28[br]day after school on television when I[br]17:30[br]was when I was like four years old I'm[br]17:35[br]hope we're in time Tom Corbett it's so[br]17:42[br]and I wasn't you know I went to I went[br]17:46[br]to it but I came out I wasn't an[br]17:48[br]ecstatic the way my friends were it's[br]17:50[br]like I wanted to listen to The Clash[br]17:52[br]this is like this is that I want to[br]17:55[br]write so I want there to be science[br]17:57[br]fiction that's like listening to the[br]17:59[br]listening to the clash so that was[br]18:02[br]happening and at this same time Blade[br]18:07[br]Runner[br]18:08[br]in the wings and was and was going to be[br]18:14[br]made so I think they were there were two[br]18:16[br]at least two different modalities of pop[br]18:24[br]futurism abroad then and probably[br]18:28[br]probably considerably more it it hasn't[br]18:32[br]been it hasn't ever really been a[br]18:37[br]monolithic thing the gleaming kitchens[br]18:40[br]and the monorail and the flying cars and[br]18:44[br]all of that in the 1950s coexisted with[br]18:50[br]a strain of left-leaning[br]18:56[br]American socio-politically aware prose[br]19:02[br]science fiction which was being[br]19:05[br]published in contrast to its political[br]19:08[br]opposite the political opposite was[br]19:11[br]called astounding stories and the[br]19:14[br]liberal sci-fi magazine was called[br]19:16[br]galaxies and the writers there was a[br]19:20[br]little bit of crossover and they would[br]19:23[br]drink together when they went to science[br]19:26[br]fiction conventions but otherwise they[br]19:28[br]didn't they didn't have much to do with[br]19:31[br]one another and if you look at the[br]19:33[br]stories that were being published in[br]19:36[br]galaxies the quiet dystopian and and[br]19:41[br]grid grittier and more more naturalistic[br]19:45[br]and to my mind altogether more[br]19:47[br]intelligent but that's sort of a matter[br]19:50[br]of taste[br]19:51[br]so it's never all one one scenario we[br]19:58[br]though we tend to we tend to remember it[br]20:01[br]that way I do think there was a time[br]20:04[br]when we thought things are getting[br]20:06[br]better and and that evolved into a[br]20:10[br]belief that things are kind of getting[br]20:12[br]worse and I don't know that[br]20:16[br]if that attached itself to to science[br]20:19[br]fiction or not but I sort of think it[br]20:22[br]has now you know you're viewed as a guru[br]20:29[br]you know that that sure if readers view[br]20:33[br]you as a guide to the future but a[br]20:36[br]signpost that keeps changing as the[br]20:38[br]world morphs into its future because you[br]20:40[br]know we've had you know about 30 years[br]20:43[br]of present that turned him future that[br]20:45[br]turned it in present since you've been[br]20:47[br]writing as one reviewer put at writing[br]20:51[br]about the trajectory of Neuromancer of[br]20:53[br]course the future was going to be filled[br]20:55[br]with mirror shades and black leather[br]20:57[br]jackets and the film of blood on a wet[br]20:59[br]razor why because William Gibson said it[br]21:03[br]would be but in the years since you[br]21:06[br]created that future even though it[br]21:07[br]hasn't happened yet you've already[br]21:09[br]revised and refined the vision and as[br]21:11[br]one reader puts it it is no longer the[br]21:14[br]sprawl no longer Neo Tokyo no longer[br]21:17[br]jacked in drugged-up surviving in stitch[br]21:20[br]Punk colonies on a broken bridge or[br]21:24[br]lounging in the edgiest of designer[br]21:26[br]clubs but Gibson had found it hiding[br]21:28[br]becoming here and there in our midst and[br]21:30[br]written one of those who walked away[br]21:33[br]those unseen paths just out of sight of[br]21:36[br]our daily commute you know the broken[br]21:40[br]bridge in this quote makes me think of[br]21:43[br]of New Orleans after Katrina where all[br]21:47[br]those people were left on an on an[br]21:49[br]overpass which is pretty apocalyptic for[br]21:52[br]them hmm well I'm not ready to take the[br]21:58[br]rap for for all of that when I began to[br]22:04[br]write write science fiction[br]22:07[br]I knew that imaginary when I began to[br]22:10[br]write I began to write[br]22:12[br]as it happened I began to write science[br]22:14[br]fiction but I had a bachelor's degree in[br]22:17[br]comparative literary critical[br]22:20[br]methodology and I read a lot of a lot of[br]22:23[br]modern novels and as a kid I'd read a[br]22:26[br]great deal of science science fiction so[br]22:29[br]I took the the contents of my otherwise[br]22:32[br]fairly useless[br]22:34[br]undergraduate degree and applied it to[br]22:37[br]what I knew of the history of science[br]22:41[br]fiction and one thing one thing that[br]22:46[br]allowed me to see is that when people[br]22:49[br]write imaginary futures they never about[br]22:52[br]the future they are in they can only be[br]22:58[br]about the moment in which they were[br]22:59[br]written and the history known history[br]23:02[br]before that we don't have anything else[br]23:05[br]we have no access to the future we can[br]23:09[br]we can try to extrapolate and we can[br]23:13[br]spend scenarios and try to make future[br]23:19[br]histories that that seem intriguingly[br]23:23[br]logical but they aren't going to be[br]23:25[br]anything like what really happens now[br]23:29[br]when someone someone predicts something[br]23:35[br]that really happens more or less and I[br]23:39[br]would say that that arthur c clarke[br]23:41[br]predicted community orbiting[br]23:45[br]communication satellites much more[br]23:48[br]accurately than i ever predicted the[br]23:53[br]world wide web but in both cases we tend[br]23:58[br]to our culture tends to overestimate the[br]24:03[br]hit but yes he's prescient yes he's a[br]24:07[br]prophet no they're all the misses this[br]24:11[br]one hinting and they're all that all the[br]24:13[br]misses that the same the same right are[br]24:17[br]made now I've never had that heart to go[br]24:19[br]through arthur c clarke and find[br]24:21[br]all the stuff that he got wrong but he[br]24:24[br]was human and he could only he could[br]24:26[br]only get a lot of it get a lot of it[br]24:29[br]wrong and unfortunately or maybe[br]24:35[br]fortunately I don't know for my having[br]24:38[br]been able to make a living[br]24:42[br]people who write about imaginary futures[br]24:45[br]if they get a few hits are marketed as[br]24:49[br]though they were Sears or shaman and[br]24:59[br]when we're not as my colleague Bruce[br]25:02[br]Sterling used to like to say rather[br]25:04[br]smugly were charlatans we've joined the[br]25:08[br]circus and you're throwing money at us[br]25:13[br]because our shells the public and their[br]25:18[br]publicists present us as people who[br]25:22[br]could predict the future and yet we're[br]25:27[br]we're not and should you ever meet a[br]25:32[br]science fiction writer or a futurist[br]25:36[br]to tell you that he or she can predict[br]25:41[br]the future run because you've got a live[br]25:45[br]one and you don't want to go there do[br]25:50[br]you remember anything you predicted that[br]25:53[br]didn't happen well every time I don't[br]26:00[br]often reread my own own work I could not[br]26:05[br]for instance to save my life write a[br]26:09[br]precis of the plot of count zero I[br]26:13[br]remember a few scenes I'm pretty good[br]26:16[br]with Neuromancer because I've had to[br]26:18[br]revisit it very frequently when when[br]26:22[br]whenever anyone attempts to make one of[br]26:26[br]the[br]26:26[br]abortive attempts at realizing it as a[br]26:30[br]feature film and so from going back to[br]26:33[br]you from going back to the Durham answer[br]26:36[br]I I did you know there's a scene in[br]26:39[br]Neuromancer where case is really you[br]26:43[br]know he really you've it's very far in[br]26:48[br]the book and and you know the crunch has[br]26:50[br]really come and he needs to communicate[br]26:53[br]really quick so he says somebody get me[br]26:57[br]a modem I can tell you I can tell you[br]27:04[br]now is this is humiliating you know this[br]27:08[br]is really embarrassing but when I wrote[br]27:10[br]that I didn't know what a modem was it[br]27:14[br]was just this word that I had heard[br]27:16[br]computer people use and it had something[br]27:20[br]to do with with communicating[br]27:24[br]communication between computers so it[br]27:27[br]makes absolutely no sense in in the[br]27:32[br]context of the imaginary world world of[br]27:37[br]that book but I was working from the[br]27:41[br]poetics of an emergent language of[br]27:48[br]around around the digital and honestly[br]27:54[br]the the first time I heard anyone use[br]27:57[br]interface as a verb i fairly swooned at[br]28:03[br]how that's so hot just incredible and I[br]28:10[br]went right home when I put it historian[br]28:12[br]another time I was standing beside two[br]28:16[br]former WAC Women's Army Corps keypunch[br]28:21[br]operators who had worked at the Pentagon[br]28:24[br]they had to wear sweaters remember that[br]28:26[br]because it was cold in the rows yeah I[br]28:29[br]imagine these these women had worn or[br]28:32[br]sweaters and they were reminiscing with[br]28:35[br]one another and I was eavesdropping and[br]28:40[br]one of them said yeah they had the guys[br]28:42[br]with that cart that came around in the[br]28:44[br]morning and they took off those games[br]28:47[br]that people would put on put on our[br]28:50[br]UNIVAC or whatever it was and the other[br]28:53[br]one said yeah but what they were really[br]28:56[br]after was those viruses and I got broke[br]29:00[br]my neck oh wow sorry I said excuse me[br]29:04[br]but what viruses and she said all[br]29:08[br]computers can be infected by viruses[br]29:10[br]they're not really they just call them[br]29:12[br]that they're their little tired things[br]29:15[br]that sort of behave like viruses within[br]29:18[br]the information and the computer and[br]29:21[br]that was the first time I ever heard of[br]29:24[br]that and you know something probably[br]29:27[br]nobody else in that whole science[br]29:29[br]fiction convention had ever ever ever[br]29:32[br]heard of that so I was like I think I'm[br]29:34[br]leaving the Condor Lee I've got some[br]29:36[br]Ryan writing to do because I wanted to[br]29:40[br]get that down before anybody anybody[br]29:44[br]else heard about it and it was about[br]29:49[br]well when Neuromancer came out the idea[br]29:52[br]of of computer viruses was still pretty[br]29:57[br]pretty esoteric and for that matter when[br]30:02[br]Neuromancer came out the idea that that[br]30:05[br]Japan was about to own the whole world[br]30:09[br]was really a really esoteric but it was[br]30:14[br]there that's another way that I didn't[br]30:19[br]get it right but I don't really care I[br]30:23[br]kind of I treasure our tech science[br]30:28[br]fiction for those very flaws it makes it[br]30:35[br]charming and deeply it makes it charming[br]30:39[br]and deeply strange it demonstrates that[br]30:43[br]it is[br]30:44[br]an artifact of the very moment in which[br]30:48[br]it was made which is really all it can[br]30:51[br]be you can't get really off the hook of[br]30:53[br]having and vented the trim cyberspace[br]30:56[br]you're just gonna have to live with that[br]30:58[br]right well I did you know I I how I came[br]31:04[br]to to coin that the word word cyberspace[br]31:09[br]which is I think I think of cyberspace[br]31:14[br]as a piece of heritage terminology and[br]31:21[br]it wasn't when I wrote Neuromancer but I[br]31:26[br]think that cyberspace is heritage[br]31:29[br]terminology in the same way that the[br]31:32[br]real world quote is heritage terminology[br]31:37[br]the difference between the world into[br]31:41[br]which neuroma Neuromancer was published[br]31:45[br]and the world in which we live tonight[br]31:48[br]is that in Neuromancer z-- day in the[br]31:55[br]day of the actual publication of the[br]31:57[br]book there was cyberspace this other[br]32:02[br]realm and the real and the real world[br]32:05[br]and what's happened what's happened[br]32:12[br]actually it's presented that way in the[br]32:15[br]book even though it's like something[br]32:17[br]like i assumed 2035 in the book people[br]32:21[br]still go okay is the real world here in[br]32:24[br]the sprawl but they're in cyberspace[br]32:26[br]leaving beyond the duh so that's gone[br]32:31[br]and what's happened is that cyberspace[br]32:33[br]has colonized the real world and the[br]32:36[br]distinction the distinction is what's[br]32:40[br]going to make us look like Hicks to our[br]32:43[br]great-grandchildren that we even think[br]32:46[br]there could be a distinction it's[br]32:50[br]they're not I don't you know we keep[br]32:52[br]going the way we're going out on[br]32:54[br]there'll be a distinction there's less[br]32:56[br]of a distinction now than there was last[br]32:58[br]year and are you disappointed at all in[br]33:03[br]the web no no I um it isn't it's it's[br]33:13[br]sort of part of the marketing which you[br]33:19[br]know it this isn't it isn't that I've[br]33:21[br]only now come to say oh no the marketing[br]33:24[br]is raw you shouldn't you know you should[br]33:28[br]regard me as a prophet I've said that[br]33:32[br]more over the course of 30 years than[br]33:35[br]I've said anything else I've did[br]33:40[br]remorselessly on topic with that since[br]33:45[br]since the very beginning is that weird[br]33:49[br]anthology of every interview I ever did[br]33:52[br]that has been recently published[br]33:55[br]apparently indicates someone who[br]33:58[br]actually went through it all says so you[br]34:02[br]certainly repeat yourself and quite a[br]34:06[br]lot of it is me saying nope I'm not[br]34:09[br]prescient and I and I didn't[br]34:11[br]particularly I didn't particularly[br]34:14[br]expect to be but I keep watching this[br]34:19[br]stuff as it changes and the distinction[br]34:26[br]between between the digital and the[br]34:30[br]so-called real or the so-called digital[br]34:33[br]and so-called real is is going it's just[br]34:39[br]going away and assuming that we keep[br]34:45[br]being able to make these gadgets and[br]34:48[br]systems I think it will continue it will[br]34:51[br]it will continue to to go away[br]34:55[br]and those who grow up with that will[br]35:01[br]regard us with some puzzlement[br]35:04[br]as transitional creatures between[br]35:08[br]themselves and whole world before[br]35:13[br]television that they were they were all[br]35:16[br]struggle to comprehend much as we[br]35:21[br]struggle if we seriously try to[br]35:23[br]comprehend the lives of our ancestors in[br]35:28[br]the savannas yeah you know I have two[br]35:31[br]more pages of questions but I'm not[br]35:33[br]going to get to ask them because we want[br]35:36[br]to turn this over to the audience after[br]35:39[br]I ask you a question I've been holding[br]35:41[br]bed but I'm sure you have an opinion[br]35:44[br]that is what do you think happened to[br]35:48[br]Malaysia air 370 I'm still on it I think[br]35:57[br]I think of that as a demonstration of[br]36:04[br]the extent to which we are not yet truly[br]36:09[br]post geographical I think that that's a[br]36:14[br]demonstration of the brute beingness of[br]36:24[br]geography and if I if I had to guess I[br]36:30[br]would say that it's very very deep[br]36:34[br]somewhere in India probably in the[br]36:39[br]Indian Ocean but that the Indian Ocean[br]36:42[br]is so damn big and so damn deep that it[br]36:46[br]will be a long time before we find it[br]36:50[br]and even when we find it we may not know[br]36:52[br]exactly what unfortunate story that it[br]36:56[br]than it to be there but I think it would[br]36:59[br]it was I think of it as a rupture in our[br]37:05[br]fantastic membrane of hubris about[br]37:09[br]inside we imagine our technology as[br]37:13[br]being like like actually cooler[br]37:16[br]that it is when we run into running when[br]37:21[br]we run into a situation in which our our[br]37:24[br]best techies say to us there's nothing[br]37:28[br]we can do we could just keep looking it[br]37:30[br]may take forever it's down in the bottom[br]37:34[br]of the ocean it's too deep to find and[br]37:38[br]it's hard for us too it's become hard[br]37:42[br]for us to get our heads around that you[br]37:47[br]don't think it's in Kazakhstan come on I[br]37:51[br]would be Syd I would be super[br]37:54[br]I would actually would be surprised but[br]37:57[br]it's the thing about this thing about[br]38:04[br]conspiracy theories is that in order to[br]38:10[br]propagate you have to be able to[br]38:11[br]describe them over a maximum of two[br]38:15[br]pints of beer now and that means that[br]38:21[br]they won't by nature be be very complex[br]38:26[br]and they may but neither[br]38:30[br]interestingly will they be very[br]38:33[br]frightening even even if they involve[br]38:36[br]the Reptoid Illuminati I haven't got[br]38:40[br]that their actual their actual function[br]38:43[br]in in that simplicity is to protect us[br]38:46[br]from the really terrifying realities[br]38:51[br]which are inherently vastly complex so[br]38:57[br]it's it's actually that scary to think[br]39:00[br]that that that plane is in Kazakhstan[br]39:03[br]than it is to think that it's at the[br]39:06[br]bottom of the ocean as a result of some[br]39:10[br]human that we may never[br]39:13[br]understand that's scarier based on your[br]39:18[br]books and on your Twitter feed you have[br]39:20[br]a big interest in fashion I actually[br]39:22[br]bought a pair of outlier chinos based on[br]39:24[br]your recommendation[br]39:27[br]but what specifically interests you[br]39:29[br]about fashion well it isn't I don't[br]39:34[br]actually like to think about it as[br]39:36[br]fashion because I think of fashion as a[br]39:39[br]kind of artificial marketing structure[br]39:43[br]where at the turn of every season they[br]39:46[br]jump up and say oh you need new pants[br]39:49[br]but I am interested I'm interested in[br]39:56[br]clothing and haircuts and things like[br]39:59[br]things that we think of as fashion I'm[br]40:02[br]interested in it as a language and[br]40:08[br]sometimes the localized language and[br]40:10[br]some sometimes now a global a global[br]40:16[br]language and we all communicate to some[br]40:21[br]extent with what we with what we wear[br]40:26[br]some of us pride ourselves on not doing[br]40:29[br]that but that's not really true if you[br]40:32[br]see someone who's making an actually[br]40:34[br]utterly incoherent closing statement[br]40:38[br]you cross the street it's even those of[br]40:43[br]us who think of ourselves as resolutely[br]40:45[br]anti fashion and not interested in any[br]40:48[br]of that are not getting it that wrong so[br]40:53[br]I'm interested in that I'm interested in[br]40:56[br]how people identify with with[br]41:02[br]counterculture I'm interested in counter[br]41:05[br]cultural identification through garments[br]41:08[br]I'm interested in the fact that there is[br]41:10[br]apparently always one breeding pair of[br]41:14[br]rockers in the United Kingdom and and at[br]41:18[br]least one of classic mods and and Goths[br]41:24[br]seem utterly established and never go[br]41:27[br]away and those are all modalities[br]41:33[br]identification[br]41:35[br]I've been sitting with him for a couple[br]41:38[br]hours now and everything he's wearing is[br]41:41[br]cool you're you're not up close enough[br]41:43[br]to see it but his pants are cool jacket[br]41:46[br]totally cool with this snaps shoes I[br]41:49[br]didn't notice somebody came out here and[br]41:50[br]I got a gander at those socks ordinary[br]41:53[br]but everything else I was actually I[br]41:58[br]shouldn't this will haunt me but I have[br]42:01[br]to I have to admit it because I think[br]42:03[br]it's funny I was a branding consultant[br]42:06[br]on the line of clothing that these pants[br]42:12[br]in this jacket are a harlow but I can't[br]42:16[br]say what it was because had to sign a[br]42:19[br]nondisclosure agreement so I can't tell[br]42:24[br]you what Brad did is I actually was and[br]42:28[br]that was where that was where I learned[br]42:30[br]that all the stuff in in Xero history[br]42:34[br]that people think I've made up about[br]42:37[br]about the the the hybridization of the[br]42:43[br]military industrial complex and the[br]42:46[br]skateboard clothing complex so that that[br]42:51[br]was really good that was really going on[br]42:53[br]and if I if I hadn't have been[br]42:56[br]researching that I would never have[br]42:58[br]gotten but God's a gig very strange do[br]43:04[br]spend in fiction writers are poor when[br]43:08[br]it comes to research and cutting-edge[br]43:10[br]knowledge in history I think that our[br]43:15[br]mail has gotten shorter and shorter and[br]43:19[br]shorter and I think our now when I was[br]43:23[br]about five years old was maybe a[br]43:27[br]presidential term or half of one and how[br]43:33[br]now today is is like a fraction of a[br]43:37[br]news cycle if that it's been it's been[br]43:42[br]shrinking so back[br]43:44[br]back in the 50s Robert Heinlein's say[br]43:48[br]writing writing some pretty carefully[br]43:53[br]extrapolated speculative fiction had[br]43:57[br]this big flat now to work on and he[br]44:01[br]could sort of arrange the bits but[br]44:04[br]that's been getting smaller so that the[br]44:06[br]thing that was the size of two Olympic[br]44:09[br]tennis courts is now like like a quarter[br]44:12[br]of what used to be called the postage[br]44:15[br]stamp[br]44:15[br]but now itself is kind of on the verge[br]44:18[br]of verge of extinction and writers today[br]44:22[br]don't have the real estate of now in[br]44:29[br]which to plant their stuff because[br]44:31[br]everything is changing changing very[br]44:34[br]quickly and and that creates different[br]44:37[br]problems in in speculative fiction and[br]44:43[br]people have to come up with with[br]44:46[br]different solutions and one of my[br]44:48[br]solutions is just to accept that what I[br]44:53[br]write is is obsoleting it's it's if it[br]44:58[br]were an ice cream cone it would be[br]45:01[br]melting as I tried to take it home[br]45:03[br]it's obsoleting as I write it somebody's[br]45:06[br]inventing something right now that will[br]45:09[br]make make my novel ridiculous except[br]45:13[br]well if I if I'm really serious about[br]45:18[br]writing a novel that stuff won't matter[br]45:20[br]and my novel won't become ridiculous[br]45:23[br]because its intent will have been in the[br]45:26[br]end quite serious um my question is sort[br]45:32[br]of sort of carries on a little bit with[br]45:34[br]we were just saying about the not the[br]45:35[br]present and you mentioned earlier that[br]45:37[br]you think that science fiction tells you[br]45:42[br]about the moment in which it occurred in[br]45:44[br]the moment that in which it was[br]45:45[br]published and I'm curious what you think[br]45:47[br]that science fiction being written and[br]45:49[br]published today tells us about the[br]45:52[br]current moment well I should be careful[br]45:57[br]about science fiction being published[br]45:59[br]today because I don't actually read that[br]46:02[br]much of it myself so I'm actually very[br]46:08[br]out of touch with the genre as a[br]46:15[br]marketing thing and as a marketing[br]46:19[br]mechanism and when I if I go into a[br]46:23[br]science fiction specialty shop I'm just[br]46:26[br]overwhelmed by the the number of titles[br]46:29[br]and the variety of that I rely on the[br]46:34[br]sort of personal network / filtering[br]46:39[br]operation that one develops over the[br]46:43[br]course of a literary life or if[br]46:45[br]something happens that a sufficient[br]46:48[br]number of my friends find interesting[br]46:51[br]enough to bring to one another's[br]46:52[br]attention it sort of bumps along until[br]46:55[br]it gets to me and I'll go home I might I[br]46:59[br]might I might read that but I did[br]47:03[br]something I went to a science fiction[br]47:05[br]convention in Vancouver and I had been[br]47:08[br]to a convention that's enough convention[br]47:11[br]in about 20 years a little over 20 years[br]47:14[br]and so I went and I was I was doing a[br]47:20[br]conversation something like this they're[br]47:23[br]less wide-ranging in front of us a[br]47:26[br]smaller audience and and so I said here[br]47:31[br]these are three writers somebody asked[br]47:33[br]me that I was interested in and I saw[br]47:34[br]other these three writers and I said how[br]47:37[br]many people have heard of her and two[br]47:40[br]people raised their hands and of him and[br]47:43[br]one raised the head and of him nobody[br]47:46[br]raised their hands so I realized I was[br]47:48[br]sort of walking around in some kind of[br]47:50[br]Internet consensus bubble and I had no[br]47:54[br]idea what these people were reading and[br]47:56[br]then almost none of them were reading[br]47:58[br]there the writers I I thought were[br]48:02[br]are really interesting right now we're[br]48:04[br]just getting into it I think it's fair[br]48:07[br]to say that there's a lot a strong vein[br]48:10[br]of warning in this new navi novel and[br]48:12[br]when other people write these books with[br]48:14[br]these strong warnings in them they're[br]48:16[br]very bad things happen in them but my[br]48:19[br]question is why are you so nice to your[br]48:21[br]characters compared to your peers[br]48:23[br]it's a d2 final the two final chapters[br]48:28[br]are a sort of litmus test for[br]48:30[br]socio-political sophistication if you[br]48:35[br]think a woman's okay because she's[br]48:36[br]married pregnant and has a lot of money[br]48:42[br]look there's a lot of is a lot of you[br]48:46[br]know a happy ending is about when you[br]48:48[br]roll the credit there's a lot of bad[br]48:50[br]hovering around both those both[br]48:54[br]those chapters and particularly well one[br]49:02[br]of it one of the characters in the 10th[br]49:05[br]ultimate next to last chapter[br]49:09[br]essentially has the last word of the[br]49:12[br]book and she looks out she looks out[br]49:18[br]over the City of London and says human[br]49:21[br]all too human because she and that's her[br]49:25[br]answer to being asked why the people in[br]49:29[br]that the good guys in that chapter why[br]49:32[br]they might not inadvertently be creating[br]49:35[br]exactly what they think they're escaping[br]49:38[br]from which if you think about it when I[br]49:43[br]get it's too spoilery for me to get into[br]49:47[br]but if you read it again which I[br]49:51[br]actually recommend with this book[br]49:53[br]because it works completely differently[br]49:56[br]the second time is you I guarantee[br]49:59[br]you'll see a lot of things you missed[br]50:01[br]the first time particularly in the first[br]50:03[br]hundred pages it does I think those two[br]50:10[br]final chapters of the[br]50:11[br]Jarius thing I have ever written the[br]50:14[br]creepiest thing I've ever written and[br]50:17[br]I've already seen reviews that accused[br]50:20[br]me of going beyond my known penchant for[br]50:24[br]absurdly happy endings so in your[br]50:32[br]collection distrusts that particular[br]50:34[br]flavor[br]50:35[br]you mentioned the term prosthetic memory[br]50:38[br]and from my understanding you're the[br]50:42[br]recall in that memory it could be[br]50:44[br]distant or nearby and these are kind of[br]50:48[br]determined by algorithms like search[br]50:50[br]algorithms or things on the phone and[br]50:52[br]whatever what may have you do you have[br]50:55[br]any thoughts on that or personal opinion[br]50:58[br]I have a pocket full of prosthetic[br]51:02[br]memory right right here I've got you[br]51:07[br]know I don't know how far back the email[br]51:10[br]record I can access on this this phone[br]51:14[br]goes but that's prosthetic memory this[br]51:18[br]phone when I'm in a building other than[br]51:21[br]this one can can access Google and[br]51:24[br]that's prosthetic memory[br]51:27[br]it probably prosthetic memory is not[br]51:31[br]like like a chip from whatever[br]51:34[br]RadioShack is now called if it even[br]51:36[br]still exists it's it's this entire[br]51:40[br]system where we're connected to and as[br]51:43[br]someone said on on Twitter last last[br]51:47[br]month --is said someone said I'm getting[br]51:51[br]tired of not being able to lose track of[br]51:54[br]anyone I thought that was somehow like[br]52:00[br]the core statement of the entire year[br]52:06[br]for BRE yeah and that's prosthetic[br]52:10[br]memory that prosthetic memory is like[br]52:14[br]every everything you ever did in social[br]52:19[br]media just stay[br]52:21[br]being there for the rest of your life[br]52:23[br]but it's we we live in this vast[br]52:29[br]mechanism of prosthetic memory that[br]52:32[br]relatively speaking scarcely existed 50[br]52:36[br]50 years ago we have been creating forms[br]52:41[br]of prosthetic memory forever you know[br]52:46[br]painting on cave walls working at you[br]52:50[br]know notching bones working all of those[br]52:53[br]things that animals don't do that we've[br]52:58[br]always done culminate now and then[br]53:01[br]whatever the hell this is that we're[br]53:04[br]doing which I tend to assume the[br]53:09[br]endpoint would just be a single digital[br]53:14[br]now it would be like a spherical retina[br]53:20[br]looking in in itself and some kind of[br]53:24[br]some weird kind of digital board DC and[br]53:28[br]Alpha Omega thing and you know we may we[br]53:35[br]may not get to find out but one day is[br]53:37[br]someone might there was a there was a[br]53:40[br]piece you wrote the Bible interview my[br]53:42[br]MP she wrote in Wired in the 90s when[br]53:45[br]someone said like you've been accused of[br]53:47[br]creating dystopias and you said well it[br]53:49[br]depends who you are because if you're[br]53:51[br]like a slum blower in Bangladesh on a[br]53:53[br]site of a high-tech Bangladesh or[br]53:54[br]whatever yeah that's that's peeling and[br]53:56[br]so you still think that this apocalyptic[br]53:59[br]sense things are getting worse is kind[br]54:01[br]of a luxury of us at the top and that[br]54:04[br]actually no actually mostly the vans are[br]54:05[br]helping most of humanity so we just[br]54:07[br]better chill out just accept that other[br]54:09[br]people are well I mean it is in a way[br]54:13[br]the anxiety about having too much[br]54:18[br]anxiety about the apocalypse is perhaps[br]54:20[br]the the ultimate first world problem[br]54:24[br]yeah I think people people are trying to[br]54:28[br]you know get get food on the table to[br]54:32[br]keep their children from[br]54:33[br]they're not like they're not stressing[br]54:36[br]the apocalypse there they're very much[br]54:39[br]in the but they're very much in the[br]54:41[br]moment and I do think that they're[br]54:48[br]plenty I think they're probably a lot of[br]54:50[br]people in say Mogadishu who offered that[br]54:53[br]offered the chance to immigrate to[br]54:56[br]Neuromancer would be there in a flash if[br]55:00[br]they if they could and they'd be doing[br]55:02[br]they'd be doing they'd be doing better[br]55:05[br]one of the the kind of secrets I guess[br]55:09[br]that the sort of very simple moves I[br]55:14[br]discovered early on in my career which[br]55:17[br]I'm only sort of becoming willing to[br]55:20[br]talk about thee these days is that what[br]55:23[br]I would do what I would do for these[br]55:26[br]futures what I would just take take the[br]55:29[br]conditions of the third world transfer[br]55:35[br]them to say Chicago and just run them[br]55:39[br]you know just run it straight through[br]55:41[br]and people would go oh how could and yet[br]55:45[br]they're probably you know there are[br]55:47[br]parts of Chicago where that you could[br]55:51[br]zero in on and go well that's pretty[br]55:53[br]close indeed it's true so the people who[br]55:57[br]have the the the holy that scary[br]56:02[br]react reaction to to Neuromancer tend to[br]56:08[br]be very privileged people one one way or[br]56:12[br]another and and that was part of my[br]56:16[br]program and I was hoping that in some[br]56:22[br]way I could maybe change that a little[br]56:25[br]bit by showing it people this stuff in a[br]56:28[br]different way thank you

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