1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:12:43,465 (Music) 2 00:12:43,676 --> 00:12:46,339 Oh, hi kids! I have an incredible message for you! 3 00:12:46,475 --> 00:12:48,847 Hey, can someone take Thelma back to the petting zoo? 4 00:12:49,233 --> 00:12:50,867 Wow, that looks like fun! 5 00:12:51,132 --> 00:12:55,327 Now where was I? Oh yes, in 2014, kids 12 and under can come free! 6 00:12:55,697 --> 00:12:58,133 Hey, shouldn't the comets be in the planetarium? 7 00:12:58,255 --> 00:13:01,164 For the entire year, kids 12 and under come free. 8 00:13:01,497 --> 00:13:04,166 Hey, T-rex, you better get back to the dinasour den! 9 00:13:04,365 --> 00:13:06,962 As you can see, it's a very exciting place. 10 00:13:07,085 --> 00:13:10,136 Now tell your parents, kids 12 and under free in 2014 11 00:13:10,136 --> 00:13:11,882 when accompanied by a paying adult. 12 00:13:11,882 --> 00:13:13,587 We hope to see you soon. 13 00:13:14,519 --> 00:13:17,801 Good evening, I'm please to welcome you to Legacy Hall 14 00:13:17,801 --> 00:13:20,688 of the Creation Museum in Northern Kentucky 15 00:13:20,688 --> 00:13:23,267 in the Metropolitan area of Cincinnati. 16 00:13:23,267 --> 00:13:25,030 I'm Tom Forman from CNN. 17 00:13:25,074 --> 00:13:26,800 And I'm please to be tonight's moderator for 18 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,274 this Evolution vs. Creation debate. 19 00:13:30,274 --> 00:13:33,256 This is a very old question, where did we come from? 20 00:13:34,277 --> 00:13:37,204 My answer is from Washington this morning by airplane. 21 00:13:37,204 --> 00:13:43,139 (Laughter) But there is a much more profound, longer answer, 22 00:13:43,139 --> 00:13:45,162 That people have sought after for a long time. 23 00:13:45,162 --> 00:13:48,023 So, tonight's question to be debated is the following: 24 00:13:48,521 --> 00:13:55,500 Is Creation a viable model of origins in today's modern Scientific era? 25 00:13:55,731 --> 00:13:58,182 Our welcome extends to hundreds of thousands of people 26 00:13:58,182 --> 00:14:01,795 who are watching on the internet at debatelive.org. 27 00:14:01,795 --> 00:14:03,165 We're glad you have joined us. 28 00:14:03,165 --> 00:14:04,966 Of course, your auditorium here, 29 00:14:04,966 --> 00:14:06,725 all of the folks who've joined us as well. 30 00:14:06,725 --> 00:14:10,075 We're joined by 70 media representatives from many 31 00:14:10,075 --> 00:14:12,107 of the world's great news organizations. 32 00:14:12,107 --> 00:14:13,954 We're glad to have them here as well. 33 00:14:13,954 --> 00:14:18,222 And now let's welcome our debaters: Mr. Bill Nye and Mr. Ken Ham. 34 00:14:18,437 --> 00:14:47,849 (audience applauds) 35 00:14:47,849 --> 00:14:50,443 We had a coin toss earlier to determine 36 00:14:50,443 --> 00:14:52,264 who would go first of these two men. 37 00:14:52,264 --> 00:14:54,883 The only thing missing was Joe Namath in a fur coat. 38 00:14:55,358 --> 00:14:59,726 But it went very well. Mr. Ham won the coin toss 39 00:14:59,726 --> 00:15:04,260 and he opted to speak first. But first, let me tell you 40 00:15:04,260 --> 00:15:05,748 a little bit about both of these gentlemen. 41 00:15:05,748 --> 00:15:08,176 Mr. Nye's website describes him as a scientist, 42 00:15:08,180 --> 00:15:10,744 engineer, comedian, author, and inventor. 43 00:15:10,744 --> 00:15:14,430 Mr Nye, as you may know, produced a number of award-winning TV shows, 44 00:15:14,436 --> 00:15:17,270 including a program he became so well-known for: 45 00:15:17,270 --> 00:15:19,682 Bill Nye the Science Guy. 46 00:15:19,682 --> 00:15:22,015 While working on the Science Guy show, Mr. Nye won 47 00:15:22,015 --> 00:15:25,157 seven national Emmy awards for writing, performing, 48 00:15:25,157 --> 00:15:28,869 and producing the show. Won 18 Emmys in five years! 49 00:15:28,869 --> 00:15:33,074 In between creating the shows, he wrote five kids books about science, 50 00:15:33,074 --> 00:15:37,463 including his latest title, Bill Nye's Great Big Book of Tiny Germs. 51 00:15:37,463 --> 00:15:40,682 Billy Nye is the host of three television series: 52 00:15:40,682 --> 00:15:43,086 his program, "The 100 Greatest Discoveries"-- 53 00:15:43,086 --> 00:15:45,711 airs on the Science Channel. "The Eyes of Nye"-- 54 00:15:45,711 --> 00:15:48,555 airs on PBS stations across the country. He frequenly appears 55 00:15:48,555 --> 00:15:51,673 on interview programs to discuss a variety of science topics. 56 00:15:51,673 --> 00:15:55,604 Mr. Nye serves as Executive Director of the Planetary Society, 57 00:15:55,604 --> 00:15:58,111 the world's largest space interest group. 58 00:15:58,111 --> 00:16:00,367 He is a graduate of Cornell, with a Bachelors 59 00:16:00,367 --> 00:16:03,718 of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering. 60 00:16:03,718 --> 00:16:08,174 Mr. Ken Ham is the president and co-founder of Answers in Genesis, 61 00:16:08,174 --> 00:16:11,207 a bible-defending organization that upholds the authority 62 00:16:11,207 --> 00:16:13,349 of the scriptures from the very first verse. 63 00:16:13,349 --> 00:16:17,053 Mr. Ham is the man behind the popular, high-tech 64 00:16:17,053 --> 00:16:19,319 Creation Museum, where we're holding this debate. 65 00:16:19,319 --> 00:16:21,515 The museum has had 2 million visitors in six years 66 00:16:21,515 --> 00:16:23,807 and has attracted much of the world's media. 67 00:16:23,807 --> 00:16:26,312 The Answers in Genesis website, as well, trafficked 68 00:16:26,312 --> 00:16:29,423 with 2 million visitors alone last month. Mr. Ham is also 69 00:16:29,423 --> 00:16:32,907 a best-selling author, a much in-demand speaker, 70 00:16:32,907 --> 00:16:36,990 and the host of a daily radio feature carried on 700 plus stations. 71 00:16:36,990 --> 00:16:41,110 This is his second public debate on Evolution and Creation. 72 00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:44,108 The first was at Harvard, in the 1990s. 73 00:16:44,108 --> 00:16:46,687 Mr. Ham is a native of Australia. He earned 74 00:16:46,687 --> 00:16:49,321 a Bachelors degree in Applied Science, with an emphasis in 75 00:16:49,323 --> 00:16:53,083 Environmental Biology, from the Queensland's Institute of Technology, 76 00:16:53,083 --> 00:16:56,277 as well as a Diploma of Education at the University 77 00:16:56,277 --> 00:16:59,627 of Queensland in Brisbon, Australia. 78 00:16:59,627 --> 00:17:02,777 And now...Mr. Ham, you opted to go first, so you will 79 00:17:02,777 --> 00:17:05,900 be first with your five minute opening statement. 80 00:17:08,364 --> 00:17:11,632 Well, good evening. I know that not everyone watching 81 00:17:11,632 --> 00:17:14,934 this debate will necessarily agree with what I have to say, 82 00:17:14,934 --> 00:17:17,873 but I'm an Aussie and live over here in America 83 00:17:17,873 --> 00:17:20,694 and they tell me I have an accent and so it doesn't matter 84 00:17:20,694 --> 00:17:24,280 what I say, some people tell me. We just like to hear you saying it. 85 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,263 (laughter) So...um...I hope you enjoy me saying it anyway. 86 00:17:27,263 --> 00:17:29,570 Well, the debate topic is this: Is Creation 87 00:17:29,570 --> 00:17:33,100 a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era? 88 00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:36,262 You know, when this was first announced on the internet, 89 00:17:36,262 --> 00:17:37,998 there were lots of statements-- like this one 90 00:17:37,998 --> 00:17:39,949 from the Richard Dawkins Foundation. 91 00:17:39,949 --> 00:17:43,022 "Scientists should not debate Creationists. Period." 92 00:17:43,022 --> 00:17:46,223 And this one from one of the Discovery.com websites. 93 00:17:46,233 --> 00:17:48,368 "Should Scientists Debate Creationists?" 94 00:17:48,368 --> 00:17:50,932 You know, right here I believe there's a gross misrepresentation 95 00:17:50,939 --> 00:17:55,385 in our culture. We're seeing people being indoctrinated 96 00:17:55,385 --> 00:17:58,143 to believe that Creationists can't be Scientists. 97 00:17:58,143 --> 00:18:01,972 I believe it's all a part of secularists hi-jacking the word "Science". 98 00:18:01,979 --> 00:18:05,905 I want you to meet a modern-day scientist who's a Biblical Creationist. 99 00:18:05,905 --> 00:18:07,767 My name is Stuart Burgess. 100 00:18:07,767 --> 00:18:11,798 I'm a professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in the U.K. 101 00:18:13,563 --> 00:18:15,617 My name is Stuart Burgess. 102 00:18:15,617 --> 00:18:19,957 I'm a professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in the U.K. 103 00:18:20,217 --> 00:18:23,909 I have published over 130 scientific papers on 104 00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:28,346 the science of design in Engineering and Biological systems. 105 00:18:28,844 --> 00:18:32,317 From my research work, I have found that the scientific evidence 106 00:18:32,317 --> 00:18:36,450 fully supports Creationism as the best explanation to origins. 107 00:18:37,150 --> 00:18:40,182 I've also designed major parts of spacecrafts, 108 00:18:40,182 --> 00:18:42,173 launched by ESA and NASA. 109 00:18:42,180 --> 00:18:43,928 So here's a biblical Creationist, 110 00:18:43,928 --> 00:18:46,660 who's a scientist, who's also an inventor. 111 00:18:46,660 --> 00:18:48,996 And I want young people to understand that. 112 00:18:48,996 --> 00:18:52,363 You know, the problem, I believe, is this: we need to define terms correctly. 113 00:18:52,363 --> 00:18:56,224 We need to define Creation/Evolution in regard to origins 114 00:18:56,224 --> 00:18:59,381 and we need to define science. And in this opening statement, 115 00:18:59,381 --> 00:19:02,255 I want to concentrate on dealing with the word "science". 116 00:19:02,255 --> 00:19:05,551 I believe the word "science" has been hijacked by secularists. 117 00:19:05,551 --> 00:19:06,691 Now, what is science? 118 00:19:06,691 --> 00:19:09,880 Well, the origin of the word comes from the Classical Latin "scientia", 119 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,560 which means know;. And if you look up a dictionary, 120 00:19:12,565 --> 00:19:15,272 it'll say science means "the state of knowing, knowledge". 121 00:19:15,272 --> 00:19:17,244 But there's different types of knowledge and I believe 122 00:19:17,244 --> 00:19:19,006 this is where the confusion lies. 123 00:19:19,006 --> 00:19:22,000 There's experimental or observational sciences, as we call it. 124 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,722 That's using the scientific method, observation, 125 00:19:24,734 --> 00:19:27,717 measurement, experiment, testing. That's what produces 126 00:19:27,717 --> 00:19:30,197 our technology, computers, spacecraft, jet planes, 127 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:35,421 smoke detectors, looking at DNA, antibiotics, medicines and vaccines. 128 00:19:35,769 --> 00:19:39,407 You see, all scientists, whether Creationists or Evolutionists, 129 00:19:39,407 --> 00:19:43,698 actually have the same observational or experimental science. 130 00:19:44,057 --> 00:19:46,383 And it doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist, 131 00:19:46,383 --> 00:19:47,536 you can be a great scientist. 132 00:19:47,536 --> 00:19:49,908 For instance, here's an atheist, who is a great scientist-- 133 00:19:49,908 --> 00:19:53,141 Craig Venter, one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome. 134 00:19:53,141 --> 00:19:57,682 Or Dr. Raymond Damadian. He is a man who invented 135 00:19:57,682 --> 00:20:01,408 the MRI scan and revolutionized medicine. He's a biblical Creationist. 136 00:20:01,638 --> 00:20:04,023 But I want us to also understand molecules-to-man 137 00:20:04,023 --> 00:20:07,578 evolution belief has nothing to do with developing technology. 138 00:20:07,588 --> 00:20:11,642 You see, when we're talking about origins, we're talking about the past. 139 00:20:11,642 --> 00:20:14,026 We're talking about our origins. We weren't there. 140 00:20:14,033 --> 00:20:17,006 You can't observe that, whether it's molecules-to-man evolution, 141 00:20:17,006 --> 00:20:18,597 or whether it's a creation account. 142 00:20:19,002 --> 00:20:20,630 I mean, you're talking about the past. 143 00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:23,513 We'd like to call that Origins of Historical Science, 144 00:20:23,513 --> 00:20:25,764 knowledge concerning the past. Here at the Creation Museum, 145 00:20:25,764 --> 00:20:29,960 we make no apology about the fact that our Origins or Historical science 146 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,678 actually is based upon the biblical account of origins. 147 00:20:33,678 --> 00:20:36,793 Now, when you research science textbooks being used 148 00:20:36,793 --> 00:20:39,139 in public schools, what we found is this: 149 00:20:39,139 --> 00:20:42,209 by and large, the Origins of Historical Science 150 00:20:42,209 --> 00:20:46,593 is based upon man's ideas about the past--for instance, the ideas of Darwin. 151 00:20:46,593 --> 00:20:49,175 And our research has found that public school textbooks 152 00:20:49,175 --> 00:20:53,417 are using the same word "science" for Observational Science 153 00:20:53,417 --> 00:20:56,885 and Historical Science. They arbitrarily define science 154 00:20:56,885 --> 00:20:59,589 as naturalism and outlaw the supernatural. 155 00:20:59,589 --> 00:21:02,324 They present molecules-to-man evolution as fact. 156 00:21:02,324 --> 00:21:04,181 They are imposing, I believe, the religion 157 00:21:04,181 --> 00:21:06,917 of naturalism or atheism on generations of students. 158 00:21:06,917 --> 00:21:10,163 You see, I assert that the word "science" has been hijacked 159 00:21:10,163 --> 00:21:13,630 by secularists in teaching evolution to force the religion 160 00:21:13,630 --> 00:21:15,902 of naturalism on generations of kids. 161 00:21:15,904 --> 00:21:18,168 Secular evolutionists teach that all life developed 162 00:21:18,168 --> 00:21:21,088 by natural processes from some primordial form. 163 00:21:21,088 --> 00:21:24,064 That man is just an evolved animal, which has great bearing 164 00:21:24,075 --> 00:21:25,757 on how we view life and death. 165 00:21:25,757 --> 00:21:29,140 For instance, as Bill states, "It's very hard to accept, 166 00:21:29,140 --> 00:21:32,219 for many of us, that when you die, it's over."; 167 00:21:32,356 --> 00:21:35,109 But, you see, the Bible gives a totally different account of origins, 168 00:21:35,109 --> 00:21:38,634 of who we are, where we came from, the meaning of life, and our future. 169 00:21:38,645 --> 00:21:41,928 That through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin. 170 00:21:41,928 --> 00:21:45,377 But that God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son. 171 00:21:45,377 --> 00:21:49,257 Whoever believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life. 172 00:21:49,257 --> 00:21:53,861 So is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era? 173 00:21:53,861 --> 00:21:56,361 I say the creation/evolution debate is a conflict 174 00:21:56,361 --> 00:21:59,761 between two philosophical worldviews based on two different accounts 175 00:21:59,761 --> 00:22:02,402 of origins or science beliefs and creation 176 00:22:02,402 --> 00:22:05,694 is the only viable model of historical science confirmed 177 00:22:05,694 --> 00:22:09,333 by observational science in today's modern scientific era. 178 00:22:10,493 --> 00:22:14,816 And that is time. I had the unenviable job of being the time-keeper here. 179 00:22:14,816 --> 00:22:17,590 So I'm like the referee in football that you don't like, 180 00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:20,520 but I will periodically, if either one of our debaters 181 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,764 runs over on anything, I will stop them in the name of keeping it fair for all. 182 00:22:24,764 --> 00:22:27,473 Uh, Mr. Ham, thank you for your comments. Now it's Mr. Nye's 183 00:22:27,473 --> 00:22:29,903 turn for a five minute opening statement. Mr. Nye. 184 00:22:29,909 --> 00:22:32,152 Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. 185 00:22:32,152 --> 00:22:36,177 I very much appreciate you including me in your, uh, facility here. 186 00:22:36,177 --> 00:22:40,311 Now, looking around the room I think I see just one bow tie. 187 00:22:40,521 --> 00:22:43,885 Is that right? Just one. And I'm telling you, once you try it-- 188 00:22:43,885 --> 00:22:47,846 oh, there's yes, two! That's great. I started wearing bow ties 189 00:22:47,846 --> 00:22:50,063 when I was young, in high school. 190 00:22:50,063 --> 00:22:52,889 My father showed me how. His father showed him. 191 00:22:53,263 --> 00:22:58,717 And there's a story associated with this, which I find remarkable. 192 00:22:59,020 --> 00:23:03,615 My grandfather was in the rotary, and he attended 193 00:23:03,615 --> 00:23:06,999 a convention in Philadelphia, and even in those days, 194 00:23:06,999 --> 00:23:10,827 at the turn of the last century, people rented tuxedos. 195 00:23:10,827 --> 00:23:15,090 And the tuxedo came with a bow tie--untied bow tie. 196 00:23:15,090 --> 00:23:16,906 So he didn't know how to tie it. 197 00:23:16,906 --> 00:23:20,193 So...wasn't sure what to do, but he just took a chance. 198 00:23:20,193 --> 00:23:23,739 He went to the hotel room next door, knocked on the door, 199 00:23:23,739 --> 00:23:26,075 "Excuse me? Can you help me tie my tie?" 200 00:23:26,075 --> 00:23:29,392 And the guy said, "Sure. Lie down on the bed." 201 00:23:31,186 --> 00:23:35,346 So...my grandfather wanted to have the tie on, 202 00:23:35,346 --> 00:23:38,652 wasn't sure what he was getting into, so he's said 203 00:23:38,652 --> 00:23:42,560 to have lain on the bed and the guy tied a perfect bow tie knot and, 204 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,006 quite reasonably, my grandfather said, 205 00:23:45,576 --> 00:23:48,410 "Thank you. Why'd I have to lie down on the bed?" 206 00:23:48,410 --> 00:23:49,930 The guy said, "I'm an undertaker." 207 00:23:49,930 --> 00:23:52,040 (audience laughs) 208 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,083 "It's the only way I know how to do it." 209 00:23:54,083 --> 00:23:58,229 Now that story was presented to me as a true story. 210 00:23:58,422 --> 00:24:01,901 It may or may not be. But it gives you something to think about. 211 00:24:01,901 --> 00:24:04,553 And it's certainly something to remember. 212 00:24:04,770 --> 00:24:07,615 So, here tonight, we're gonna have two stories 213 00:24:07,615 --> 00:24:13,072 and we can compare Mr. Ham's story to the story 214 00:24:13,072 --> 00:24:16,417 from what I will call the outside, from mainstream science. 215 00:24:16,417 --> 00:24:20,804 The question tonight is: Does Ken Ham's Creation Model hold up? 216 00:24:21,345 --> 00:24:22,564 Is it "viable"? 217 00:24:23,174 --> 00:24:26,517 So let me ask you all: what would you be doing if you weren't here tonight? 218 00:24:26,996 --> 00:24:29,868 That's right, you'd be home watching CSI. 219 00:24:30,812 --> 00:24:35,712 CSI Petersburg. Is that coming--I think it's coming. 220 00:24:36,677 --> 00:24:41,037 And on CSI, there is no distinction made between 221 00:24:41,037 --> 00:24:43,652 historical science and observational science. 222 00:24:43,652 --> 00:24:46,829 These are constructs unique to Mr. Ham. 223 00:24:46,829 --> 00:24:50,376 We don't normally have these anywhere in the world except here. 224 00:24:50,439 --> 00:24:53,969 Natural laws that applied in the past apply now. 225 00:24:53,969 --> 00:24:57,200 That's why they're natural laws. That's why we embrace them. 226 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,055 That's how we made all these discoveries 227 00:24:59,055 --> 00:25:01,365 that enabled all this remarkable technology. 228 00:25:01,689 --> 00:25:05,405 So CSI is a fictional show, but it's based absolutely 229 00:25:05,405 --> 00:25:07,096 on real people doing real work. 230 00:25:07,096 --> 00:25:09,875 When you go to a crime scene and find evidence, 231 00:25:09,875 --> 00:25:13,364 you have clues about the past. And you trust those clues 232 00:25:13,364 --> 00:25:17,049 and you embrace them and you move forward to convict somebody. 233 00:25:17,049 --> 00:25:20,603 Mr. Ham and his followers have this remarkable view 234 00:25:20,603 --> 00:25:26,969 of a worldwide flood that somehow influenced everything that we observe in nature. 235 00:25:26,969 --> 00:25:32,966 A 500 foot wooden boat, eight zookeepers for 14,000 individual animals, 236 00:25:32,966 --> 00:25:37,445 every land plant in the world underwater for a full year? 237 00:25:37,705 --> 00:25:40,368 I ask us all: is that really reasonable? 238 00:25:40,733 --> 00:25:43,637 You'll hear a lot about the Grand Canyon, I imagine, also, 239 00:25:43,637 --> 00:25:46,895 which is a remarkable place and it has fossils. 240 00:25:46,895 --> 00:25:50,800 And the fossils in the Grand Canyon are found in layers. 241 00:25:51,068 --> 00:25:53,877 There's not a single place in the Grand Canyon 242 00:25:53,877 --> 00:25:56,973 where the fossils of one type of animal cross over 243 00:25:56,973 --> 00:25:59,575 into the fossils of another. In other words, 244 00:25:59,575 --> 00:26:03,060 when there was a big flood on the earth, you would expect 245 00:26:03,060 --> 00:26:06,253 drowning animals to swim up to a higher level. 246 00:26:06,253 --> 00:26:09,357 Not any one of them did. Not a single one. 247 00:26:09,357 --> 00:26:13,967 If you could find evidence of that, my friends, you could change the world. 248 00:26:14,367 --> 00:26:17,139 Now, I just wanna remind us all: 249 00:26:17,482 --> 00:26:22,332 there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious, 250 00:26:22,798 --> 00:26:27,601 who get enriched, who have a wonderful sense of community from their religion. 251 00:26:27,601 --> 00:26:31,335 They worship together, they eat together, they live 252 00:26:31,335 --> 00:26:34,688 in their communities and enjoy each others company. Billions of people. 253 00:26:34,688 --> 00:26:39,117 But these same people do not embrace the extraordinary view 254 00:26:39,117 --> 00:26:43,919 that the earth is somehow only 6,000 years old. That is unique. 255 00:26:44,269 --> 00:26:48,827 And here's my concern: what keeps the United States ahead, 256 00:26:49,092 --> 00:26:53,725 what makes the United States a world leader, is our technology, 257 00:26:53,725 --> 00:26:59,009 our new ideas, our innovations. If we continue to eschew science, 258 00:26:59,249 --> 00:27:02,677 eschew the process and try to divide science 259 00:27:02,677 --> 00:27:05,831 into observational science and historic science, 260 00:27:06,286 --> 00:27:09,468 we are not gonna move forward. We will not embrace natural laws. 261 00:27:09,472 --> 00:27:15,345 We will not make discoveries. We will not invent and innovate and stay ahead. 262 00:27:15,345 --> 00:27:20,397 So if you ask me if Ken Ham's Creation model is viable, I say no. 263 00:27:20,397 --> 00:27:24,782 It is absolutely not viable. So stay with us over the next period 264 00:27:24,782 --> 00:27:28,925 and you can compare my evidence to his. Thank you all very much. 265 00:27:28,925 --> 00:27:32,749 (audience applauds) (moderator) All right. 266 00:27:32,755 --> 00:27:35,187 Very nice start by both of our debaters here. 267 00:27:35,187 --> 00:27:38,207 And now each of one will offer a thirty minute, 268 00:27:38,207 --> 00:27:43,768 illustrated presentation to fully offer their case for us to consider. 269 00:27:43,768 --> 00:27:44,980 Mr. Ham, you're up. 270 00:27:57,454 --> 00:28:00,350 Well, the debate topic was "Is creation a viable model 271 00:28:00,350 --> 00:28:03,100 of origins in today's modern scientific era?" 272 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,668 And I made the statement at the end of my opening statement: 273 00:28:06,668 --> 00:28:09,696 creation is the only viable model of historical science 274 00:28:09,696 --> 00:28:13,286 confirmed by observational science in today's modern scientific era. 275 00:28:13,286 --> 00:28:16,944 And I said what we need to be doing is actually defining 276 00:28:16,944 --> 00:28:22,433 our terms and, particularly three terms: science, creation, and evolution. 277 00:28:22,449 --> 00:28:25,433 Now, I discussed the meaning of the word "science" 278 00:28:25,434 --> 00:28:28,800 and what is meant by experimental and observational science briefly. 279 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,663 And that both Creationists and Evolutionists 280 00:28:30,663 --> 00:28:35,842 can be great scientists, for instance. I mentioned Craig Venter, a biologist. 281 00:28:35,842 --> 00:28:38,171 He's an atheist and he's a great scientist. 282 00:28:38,171 --> 00:28:41,447 He was one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome. 283 00:28:41,447 --> 00:28:47,002 I also mentioned Dr. Raymond Damadian, who actually invented the MRI scanner. 284 00:28:47,002 --> 00:28:52,455 I want you to meet a biblical creationist who is a scientist and an inventor. 285 00:28:52,798 --> 00:28:55,242 Hi, my name is Dr. Raymond Damadian. 286 00:28:55,249 --> 00:28:58,238 I am a Young Earth Creation Scientist and believe that God 287 00:28:58,238 --> 00:29:01,385 created the world in six 24 hour days, 288 00:29:01,385 --> 00:29:04,094 just as recorded in the book of Genesis. 289 00:29:04,094 --> 00:29:07,897 By God's grace and the devoted prayers of my Godly mother-in-law, 290 00:29:07,897 --> 00:29:11,235 I invented the MRI scanner in 1969. 291 00:29:11,346 --> 00:29:14,464 The idea that scientists who believe the earth 292 00:29:14,464 --> 00:29:19,494 is 6,000 years old cannot do real science is simply wrong. 293 00:29:19,569 --> 00:29:21,558 Well, he's most adamant about that. 294 00:29:21,558 --> 00:29:24,916 And, actually, he revolutionized medicine! He's a biblical Creationist. 295 00:29:24,916 --> 00:29:29,390 And I encourage children to follow people like that, make them their heroes. 296 00:29:29,390 --> 00:29:33,200 Let me introduce you to another biblical Creation Scientist. 297 00:29:33,407 --> 00:29:34,997 My name is Danny Faulkner. 298 00:29:35,433 --> 00:29:39,127 I received my PhD in astronomy from Indiana University. 299 00:29:39,383 --> 00:29:41,734 For 26 and a half years, I was a professor 300 00:29:41,734 --> 00:29:44,258 at the University of South Carolina, Lancaster, 301 00:29:44,258 --> 00:29:47,740 where I hold the rank of distinguished professor emeritus. 302 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,707 Upon my retirement from the university in January of 2013, 303 00:29:51,707 --> 00:29:56,747 I joined the research staff at Answers in Genesis. I'm a stellar astronomer. 304 00:29:56,997 --> 00:30:00,357 That means my primary interests is stars, but I'm particularly 305 00:30:00,357 --> 00:30:03,305 interested in the study of eclipsing binary stars. 306 00:30:03,305 --> 00:30:06,034 And I've published many articles in the astronomy literature, 307 00:30:06,034 --> 00:30:07,898 places such as the the Astrophysical Journal, 308 00:30:07,898 --> 00:30:10,527 the Astronomical Journal, and the Observatory. 309 00:30:11,227 --> 00:30:16,800 There is nothing in observational astronomy that contradicts a recent creation. 310 00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:19,916 I also mentioned Dr. Stuart Burgess, 311 00:30:19,916 --> 00:30:24,500 professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in England. 312 00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:28,982 Now he invented and designed a double-action worm gear set 313 00:30:28,982 --> 00:30:33,504 for the three hinges of the robotic arm on a very expensive satellite. 314 00:30:33,504 --> 00:30:36,367 And if that had not worked, if that gear set had not worked, 315 00:30:36,367 --> 00:30:38,878 that whole satellite would've been useless. 316 00:30:38,878 --> 00:30:43,820 Yet, Dr. Burgess is a biblical Creationist. He believes, just as I believe. 317 00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:46,164 Now, think about this for a moment. 318 00:30:46,164 --> 00:30:47,514 A scientist like Dr. Burgess, 319 00:30:47,514 --> 00:30:49,910 who believe in Creation, just as I do, 320 00:30:49,910 --> 00:30:52,397 a small minority in this scientific world. 321 00:30:52,397 --> 00:30:55,674 But let's see what he says about scientists believing in Creation. 322 00:30:55,674 --> 00:30:59,218 I find that many of my colleagues in academia are sympathetic 323 00:30:59,218 --> 00:31:03,078 to the creationist viewpoint, including biologists. 324 00:31:03,078 --> 00:31:06,400 However, there are often afraid to speak out because of the criticisms 325 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,329 they would get from the media and atheists lobby. 326 00:31:09,329 --> 00:31:11,475 I agree. That's a real problem today. 327 00:31:11,475 --> 00:31:15,081 We need to have freedom to be able to speak on these topics. 328 00:31:15,081 --> 00:31:18,598 You know, I just want to say, by the way, that Creationists, 329 00:31:18,598 --> 00:31:21,658 non-Christian scientists, I should say, 330 00:31:21,658 --> 00:31:23,765 non-Christian scientists are really borrowing 331 00:31:23,765 --> 00:31:27,134 from the Christian worldview anyway to carry out their experimental, 332 00:31:27,134 --> 00:31:30,203 observational science. Think about it. When they're doing 333 00:31:30,203 --> 00:31:32,850 observational science, using the scientific method, 334 00:31:32,850 --> 00:31:34,445 they have to assume the laws of logic, 335 00:31:34,445 --> 00:31:36,201 they have to assume the laws of nature, 336 00:31:36,201 --> 00:31:38,292 they have to assume the uniformity of nature. 337 00:31:38,292 --> 00:31:41,283 I mean, think about it. If the universe came about by natural processes, 338 00:31:41,283 --> 00:31:44,433 where'd the laws of logic come from? Did they just pop into existence? 339 00:31:44,433 --> 00:31:47,291 Are we in a stage now where we only have half-logic? 340 00:31:47,291 --> 00:31:50,099 So, you see, I have a question for Bill Nye. 341 00:31:50,099 --> 00:31:53,080 How do you account for the laws of logic and the laws of nature 342 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,823 from a naturalistic worldview that excludes the existence of God? 343 00:31:57,823 --> 00:32:00,907 Now, in my opening statement I also discussed 344 00:32:00,907 --> 00:32:05,000 a different type of science or knowledge, origins or historical science. 345 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,467 See again, there's a confusion here. There's a misunderstanding here. 346 00:32:08,467 --> 00:32:13,566 People, by and large, have not been taught to look at 347 00:32:13,566 --> 00:32:17,697 what you believe about the past as different to what you're observing in the present. 348 00:32:17,697 --> 00:32:21,243 You don't observe the past directly. 349 00:32:21,243 --> 00:32:24,932 Even when you think about the creation account. 350 00:32:24,932 --> 00:32:26,834 I mean, we can't observe God creating. 351 00:32:26,834 --> 00:32:29,732 We can't observe the creation of Adam and Eve. We admit that. 352 00:32:29,732 --> 00:32:32,210 We're willing to admit our beliefs about the past. 353 00:32:32,210 --> 00:32:35,600 But, see, what you see in the present is very different. 354 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,300 Even some public school textbooks actually sort of acknowledge 355 00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:42,397 the difference between historical and observational science. 356 00:32:42,397 --> 00:32:45,832 Here is an Earth Science textbook that's used in public schools. 357 00:32:45,832 --> 00:32:48,850 And we read this. In contrast to physical geology, 358 00:32:48,850 --> 00:32:53,200 the aim of historical geology is to understand Earth's long history. 359 00:32:53,298 --> 00:32:54,410 Then they make this statement. 360 00:32:54,410 --> 00:32:57,765 Historical geology--so we're talking historical science-- 361 00:32:57,765 --> 00:33:00,900 tries to establish a timeline of the vast number of physical 362 00:33:00,900 --> 00:33:03,300 and biological changes that have occurred in the past. 363 00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:06,867 We study physical geology before historical geology 364 00:33:06,867 --> 00:33:11,566 because we first must understand how Earth works before we try to unravel its past. 365 00:33:11,566 --> 00:33:14,467 In other words, we observe things in the present and then, 366 00:33:14,467 --> 00:33:18,099 okay, we're assuming that that's always happened in the past 367 00:33:18,099 --> 00:33:20,441 and we're gonna try and figure out how this happened. 368 00:33:20,441 --> 00:33:22,234 See, there is a difference between what you observe 369 00:33:22,234 --> 00:33:26,513 and what happened in the past. Let me illustrate it this way: 370 00:33:27,543 --> 00:33:29,336 If Bill Nye and I went to the Grand Canyon, 371 00:33:29,336 --> 00:33:32,654 we could agree that that's a Coconino sandstone in the Hermit shale. 372 00:33:32,654 --> 00:33:35,165 There's the boundary. They're sitting one on top of the other. 373 00:33:35,165 --> 00:33:38,767 We could agree on that. But you know what we would disagree on? 374 00:33:38,767 --> 00:33:41,531 I mean, we could even analyse the minerals and agree on that. 375 00:33:41,531 --> 00:33:44,063 But we would disagree on how long it took to get there. 376 00:33:44,063 --> 00:33:47,565 But see, none of us saw the sandstone or the shale being laid down. 377 00:33:47,565 --> 00:33:49,730 There's a supposed 10 million year gap there. 378 00:33:49,730 --> 00:33:51,000 But I don't see a gap. 379 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,730 But that might be different to what Bill Nye would see. 380 00:33:53,730 --> 00:33:57,530 But there's a difference between what you actually observe 381 00:33:57,530 --> 00:34:00,829 directly and then your interpretation regarding the past. 382 00:34:00,829 --> 00:34:04,711 When I was at the Goddard Space Center a number of years ago 383 00:34:04,711 --> 00:34:06,606 I met Creationists and Evolutionists who were 384 00:34:06,606 --> 00:34:08,313 both working on the Hubble telescope. 385 00:34:08,313 --> 00:34:10,603 They agreed on how to build the Hubble telescope. 386 00:34:10,603 --> 00:34:13,333 You know what they disagreed on? Well, they disagreed on 387 00:34:13,333 --> 00:34:16,171 how to interpret the data the telescope obtained 388 00:34:16,171 --> 00:34:18,455 in regard to the age of the universe. 389 00:34:18,455 --> 00:34:21,297 And, you know, we could on and talk about lots 390 00:34:21,297 --> 00:34:23,140 of other similar sorts of things. For instance, 391 00:34:23,140 --> 00:34:26,548 I've heard Bill Nye talk about how a smoke detector works, 392 00:34:26,548 --> 00:34:30,794 using the radioactive element Americium. And, you know what? 393 00:34:30,794 --> 00:34:32,933 I totally agree with him on that. We agree how it works. 394 00:34:32,933 --> 00:34:35,933 We agree how radioactivity enables that to work. 395 00:34:35,933 --> 00:34:37,696 But if you're then gonna use radioactive elements 396 00:34:37,696 --> 00:34:39,599 and talk about the age of the Earth, 397 00:34:39,599 --> 00:34:41,564 you've got a problem cause you weren't there. 398 00:34:41,564 --> 00:34:44,798 We gotta understand parent elements, daughter elements and so on. 399 00:34:44,798 --> 00:34:47,764 We could agree whether you're Creationist or Evolutionist 400 00:34:47,764 --> 00:34:50,366 on the technology to put the rover on Mars, but we're gonna 401 00:34:50,366 --> 00:34:54,282 disagree on how to interpret the origin of Mars. 402 00:34:54,602 --> 00:34:56,112 I mean, there are some people that believed it 403 00:34:56,112 --> 00:34:59,130 was even a global flood on Mars, and there's no liquid water on Mars. 404 00:35:01,350 --> 00:35:03,864 We're gonna disagree maybe on our interpretation of origins 405 00:35:03,864 --> 00:35:06,962 and you can't prove either way because, not from 406 00:35:06,962 --> 00:35:11,102 an observational science perspective, because we've only got the present. 407 00:35:11,102 --> 00:35:16,707 Creationists and Evolutionists both work on medicines and vaccines. 408 00:35:16,707 --> 00:35:19,365 You see? It doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist, 409 00:35:19,365 --> 00:35:23,170 all scientists have the same experimental observational science. 410 00:35:23,170 --> 00:35:26,101 So I have a question for Bill Nye: Can you name one piece 411 00:35:26,101 --> 00:35:28,764 of technology that could only have been developed 412 00:35:28,764 --> 00:35:32,929 starting with the belief in molecules-to-man evolution? 413 00:35:32,929 --> 00:35:35,033 Now, here's another important fact. 414 00:35:35,033 --> 00:35:38,898 Creationists and Evolutionists all have the same evidence. 415 00:35:38,898 --> 00:35:42,933 Bill Nye and I have the same Grand Canyon. We don't disagree on that. 416 00:35:42,933 --> 00:35:46,333 We all have the same fish fossils. This is one from the Creation Museum. 417 00:35:46,333 --> 00:35:50,299 The same dinosaur skeleton, the same animals, the same humans, 418 00:35:50,299 --> 00:35:54,671 the same DNA, the same radioactive decay elements that we see. 419 00:35:54,671 --> 00:35:59,373 We have the same universe...actually, we all have the same evidences. 420 00:35:59,933 --> 00:36:01,866 It's not the evidences that are different. 421 00:36:01,866 --> 00:36:06,234 It's a battle over the same evidence in regard to how we interpret the past. 422 00:36:06,234 --> 00:36:07,566 And you know why that is? 423 00:36:07,566 --> 00:36:10,263 Cause it's really a battle over worldviews and starting points. 424 00:36:10,263 --> 00:36:12,000 It's a battle over philosophical worldviews 425 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,862 and starting points, but the same evidence. Now, I admit, 426 00:36:14,862 --> 00:36:17,798 my starting point is that God is the ultimate authority. 427 00:36:17,798 --> 00:36:21,731 But if someone doesn't accept that, then man has to be the ultimate authority. 428 00:36:21,731 --> 00:36:24,399 And that's really the difference when it comes down to it. 429 00:36:24,399 --> 00:36:26,733 You see, I've been emphasizing the difference 430 00:36:26,733 --> 00:36:29,537 between historical origin science, knowledge about 431 00:36:29,537 --> 00:36:30,927 the past when you weren't there, 432 00:36:30,927 --> 00:36:33,362 and we need to understand that we weren't there. 433 00:36:33,362 --> 00:36:36,299 Or experimental observational science, using 434 00:36:36,299 --> 00:36:38,501 your five senses in the present, the scientific method, 435 00:36:38,501 --> 00:36:41,133 what you can directly observe, test, repeat. 436 00:36:42,953 --> 00:36:44,328 There's a big difference between those two. 437 00:36:44,328 --> 00:36:46,797 And that's not what's being taught in our public schools 438 00:36:46,797 --> 00:36:48,600 and that's why kids aren't being taught to think 439 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,137 critically and correctly about the origins issue. 440 00:36:52,137 --> 00:36:54,031 But you know, it's also important to understand, 441 00:36:54,031 --> 00:36:56,366 when talking about Creation and Evolution, both involve 442 00:36:56,366 --> 00:36:59,705 historical science and observational science. 443 00:36:59,705 --> 00:37:02,365 You see, the role of observational science is this: 444 00:37:02,365 --> 00:37:04,481 it can be used to confirm or otherwise 445 00:37:04,481 --> 00:37:08,232 one's historical science based on one's starting point. 446 00:37:08,232 --> 00:37:11,000 Now, when you think about the debate topic and what I have 447 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,399 learned concerning creation, if our origins 448 00:37:14,399 --> 00:37:17,999 or historical science based on the bible, the bible's account 449 00:37:17,999 --> 00:37:21,451 of origins is true, then there should be predictions 450 00:37:21,451 --> 00:37:24,443 from this that we can test, using observational science. 451 00:37:24,443 --> 00:37:27,176 And there are. For instance, based on the bible, 452 00:37:27,176 --> 00:37:30,100 we'd expect to find evidence concerning an intelligence, 453 00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:32,534 confirming an intelligence produced life. 454 00:37:32,534 --> 00:37:35,137 We'd expect to find evidence confirming after their kind. 455 00:37:35,137 --> 00:37:38,139 The bible says God made kinds of animals and plants 456 00:37:38,139 --> 00:37:41,201 after their kind, implying each kind produces it's own, 457 00:37:41,201 --> 00:37:43,500 not that one kind changes into another. 458 00:37:43,500 --> 00:37:47,533 You'd expect to find evidence confirming a global flood of Noah's day. 459 00:37:47,533 --> 00:37:50,830 Evidence confirming one race of humans because we 460 00:37:50,830 --> 00:37:53,833 all go back to Adam and Eve, biologically, that would mean there's one race. 461 00:37:53,833 --> 00:37:58,078 Evidence confirming the Tower of Babel, that God gave different languages. 462 00:37:58,078 --> 00:38:00,433 Evidence confirming a young universe. 463 00:38:00,433 --> 00:38:04,074 Now, I can't go through all of those, but a couple of them we'll look at briefly. 464 00:38:05,194 --> 00:38:07,668 After their kind, evidence confirming that-- 465 00:38:07,668 --> 00:38:12,865 in the Creation Museum, we have a display featuring replicas, 466 00:38:12,865 --> 00:38:15,931 actually, of Darwin's finches. They're called Darwin's finches. 467 00:38:15,931 --> 00:38:18,833 Darwin collected finches from the Galapagos 468 00:38:18,833 --> 00:38:21,863 and took them back to England and we see the different species, 469 00:38:21,863 --> 00:38:24,133 the different beak sizes here. And, you know, 470 00:38:24,133 --> 00:38:27,171 from the specimens Darwin obtained in the Galapagos, 471 00:38:27,171 --> 00:38:31,295 he actually pondered these things and how do you explain this. 472 00:38:31,295 --> 00:38:36,698 And in his notes, actually, he came up with this diagram here, a tree. 473 00:38:36,698 --> 00:38:42,298 And he actually said, "I think." So he was talking about 474 00:38:42,298 --> 00:38:46,566 different species and maybe those species came from some common ancestor, 475 00:38:46,566 --> 00:38:49,434 but, actually, when it comes to finches, we actually would agree, 476 00:38:49,434 --> 00:38:54,332 as Creationists, that different finch species came from a common ancestor, but a finch. 477 00:38:54,332 --> 00:38:57,331 That's what they would have to come from. 478 00:38:57,331 --> 00:39:01,131 And see, Darwin wasn't just thinking about species. 479 00:39:01,131 --> 00:39:04,126 Darwin had a much bigger picture in mind. 480 00:39:04,126 --> 00:39:07,586 When you look at the Origins of Species and read that book, 481 00:39:07,586 --> 00:39:10,904 you'll find he made this statement: from such low and intermediate form, 482 00:39:10,904 --> 00:39:13,065 both animals and plants may have been developed; 483 00:39:13,065 --> 00:39:15,965 and, if we admit this, we must likewise admit that 484 00:39:15,965 --> 00:39:18,965 all organic beings which have ever lived on this Earth 485 00:39:18,965 --> 00:39:22,285 may be descended from some one primordial form. 486 00:39:22,285 --> 00:39:27,927 So he had in mind what we today know as an evolutionary tree of life, 487 00:39:27,927 --> 00:39:31,852 that all life has arisen from some primordial form. 488 00:39:31,852 --> 00:39:35,287 Now, when you consider the classifications system, 489 00:39:35,287 --> 00:39:37,867 kingdom phylum class or the family genus species, 490 00:39:37,867 --> 00:39:41,698 we would say, as Creationists, we have many creation scientists 491 00:39:41,698 --> 00:39:43,598 that research this and, for lots of reasons, 492 00:39:43,598 --> 00:39:47,103 I would say, the kind in Genesis 1 is really more at 493 00:39:47,103 --> 00:39:50,767 the family level of classification. For instance, there's one dog kind. 494 00:39:50,767 --> 00:39:53,402 There's one cat kind. Even though you have different 495 00:39:53,402 --> 00:39:55,686 generative species, that would mean, by the way, 496 00:39:55,686 --> 00:39:57,800 you didn't need anywhere near the number of animals 497 00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,218 on the ark as people think. 498 00:39:59,218 --> 00:40:01,033 You wouldn't need all the species of dogs, just two. 499 00:40:01,033 --> 00:40:02,898 Not all the species of cats--just two. 500 00:40:02,898 --> 00:40:06,599 And, you see, based on the biblical account there in Genesis One, 501 00:40:06,599 --> 00:40:10,352 Creationists have drawn up what they believe is a creation origin. 502 00:40:10,352 --> 00:40:13,218 In other words, they're saying, "Look. There's great variation 503 00:40:13,218 --> 00:40:16,252 in the genetics of dogs and finches and so on." 504 00:40:16,252 --> 00:40:19,367 And so, over time, particularly after Noah's flood, 505 00:40:19,367 --> 00:40:21,598 you'd expect if there were two dogs, for instance, 506 00:40:21,598 --> 00:40:23,766 you could end up with different species of dogs because 507 00:40:23,766 --> 00:40:28,949 there's an incredible amount of variability in the genes of any creature. 508 00:40:28,949 --> 00:40:33,499 And so you'd expect these different species up here, but there's limits. 509 00:40:33,499 --> 00:40:36,433 Dogs will always be dogs, finches will always be finches. 510 00:40:36,433 --> 00:40:42,067 Now, as a Creationist, I maintain that observational science 511 00:40:42,067 --> 00:40:45,983 actually confirms this model, based on the bible. 512 00:40:45,983 --> 00:40:49,530 For instance, take dogs. Okay? 513 00:40:49,530 --> 00:40:53,833 In a scientific paper dated January 2014--that's this year-- 514 00:40:53,833 --> 00:40:58,067 scientists working at the University of California stated this: 515 00:40:58,067 --> 00:41:00,564 We provide several lines of evidence supporting 516 00:41:00,564 --> 00:41:04,503 a single origin for dogs, and disfavoring alternative models 517 00:41:04,503 --> 00:41:06,833 in which dog lineages arise separately 518 00:41:06,833 --> 00:41:09,598 from geographically distinct wolf populations. 519 00:41:09,598 --> 00:41:11,883 And they put this diagram in the paper. 520 00:41:11,883 --> 00:41:14,300 By the way, that diagram is very, very similar 521 00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:17,598 to this diagram that Creationists proposed based upon 522 00:41:17,598 --> 00:41:20,832 the creation account in Genesis. In other words, 523 00:41:20,832 --> 00:41:22,465 you have a common dog ancestor that gives rise 524 00:41:22,465 --> 00:41:25,364 to the different species of dogs, and that's exactly 525 00:41:25,364 --> 00:41:28,129 what we're saying here. Now, in the Creation Museum, 526 00:41:28,129 --> 00:41:31,300 we actually show the finches here and you see the finches 527 00:41:31,300 --> 00:41:34,767 with their different beaks, beside dogs skulls, different species of dogs. 528 00:41:34,767 --> 00:41:37,884 By the way, there's more variation in the dog skeleton 529 00:41:37,884 --> 00:41:41,063 here than there are in these finches. Yet, the dogs, 530 00:41:41,063 --> 00:41:42,931 wow, that's never used as an example of evolution, 531 00:41:42,931 --> 00:41:45,800 but the finches are, particularly in the public school textbooks. 532 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,099 Students are taught, "Ah! See the changes that are occurring here?" 533 00:41:49,099 --> 00:41:51,299 And here's another problem that we've got. 534 00:41:51,299 --> 00:41:55,906 Not only has the word "science" been hijacked by secularists, 535 00:41:55,906 --> 00:41:59,851 I believe the word "evolution" has been hijacked by secularists. 536 00:41:59,851 --> 00:42:03,963 The word "evolution" has been hijacked using what I call a bait and switch. 537 00:42:03,963 --> 00:42:05,950 Let me explain to you. 538 00:42:05,950 --> 00:42:09,830 The word "evolution" is being used in public school textbooks, 539 00:42:09,830 --> 00:42:11,833 and we often see it in documentaries and so on, 540 00:42:11,833 --> 00:42:15,100 is used for observable changes that we would agree with, 541 00:42:15,100 --> 00:42:19,791 and then used for unobservable changes, such as molecules-to-man. 542 00:42:19,791 --> 00:42:21,757 Let me explain to you what's really going on because 543 00:42:21,757 --> 00:42:23,565 I was a science teacher in the public schools 544 00:42:23,565 --> 00:42:25,965 and I know what the students were taught and I checked 545 00:42:25,965 --> 00:42:28,600 the public school textbooks anyway to know what they're taught. 546 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,030 See, students are taught today, look, there's all 547 00:42:31,030 --> 00:42:34,032 these different animals, plants, but they're all part 548 00:42:34,032 --> 00:42:37,297 of this great, big tree of life that goes back to some primordial form. 549 00:42:37,297 --> 00:42:39,470 And, look, we see changes. Changes in finches, 550 00:42:39,470 --> 00:42:42,655 changes in dogs and so on. Now, we don't deny the changes. 551 00:42:42,655 --> 00:42:45,499 You see that. You see different species of finches, different species of dogs. 552 00:42:45,499 --> 00:42:48,200 But then they put it all together in this evolutionary tree-- 553 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,387 but that's what you don't observe. You don't observe that. 554 00:42:50,387 --> 00:42:53,653 That's belief there. That's the historical science 555 00:42:53,653 --> 00:42:57,833 that I would say is wrong. But, you know, what you do observe, 556 00:42:57,833 --> 00:43:03,033 you do observe different species of dogs, different species of finches, 557 00:43:03,033 --> 00:43:06,563 but then there are limits. You don't see one kind changing into another. 558 00:43:06,563 --> 00:43:12,050 Actually, we're told that if you teach creation 559 00:43:12,050 --> 00:43:14,367 in the public schools as teaching religion, 560 00:43:14,367 --> 00:43:17,281 if you teach evolution as science, I'm gonna say, "Wait a minute!" 561 00:43:17,281 --> 00:43:21,332 Actually, the creation model here, based upon the Bible, 562 00:43:21,332 --> 00:43:24,277 observational science confirms this. This is what you're observe! 563 00:43:24,277 --> 00:43:25,982 You don't observe this tree. 564 00:43:25,982 --> 00:43:29,430 Actually, it's the public school textbooks that are teaching a belief, 565 00:43:29,430 --> 00:43:32,284 imposing it on students, and they need to be teaching them 566 00:43:32,284 --> 00:43:36,466 observational science to understand the reality of what's happening. 567 00:43:36,466 --> 00:43:40,559 Now, what we found is that public school textbooks present 568 00:43:40,559 --> 00:43:44,630 the evolutionary tree as science, but reject the creation orchard as religion. 569 00:43:44,928 --> 00:43:47,760 But observational science confirms the creation orchard-- 570 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,996 so public school textbooks are rejecting observational science 571 00:43:50,996 --> 00:43:53,893 and imposing a naturalistic religion on students. 572 00:43:53,893 --> 00:43:57,289 The word "evolution" has been hijacked using a bait and switch 573 00:43:57,289 --> 00:44:00,496 to indoctrinate students to accept evolutionary belief 574 00:44:00,496 --> 00:44:01,937 as observational science. 575 00:44:02,373 --> 00:44:05,968 Let me introduce you to another scientist, Richard Lenski, 576 00:44:05,968 --> 00:44:08,831 from Michigan State University. He's a great scientist, 577 00:44:08,831 --> 00:44:11,723 he's known for culturing e-coli in the lab... 578 00:44:11,723 --> 00:44:15,585 and he found there was some e-coli that actually seemed 579 00:44:15,585 --> 00:44:19,033 to develop the ability to grow on cistrate on substrate. 580 00:44:23,382 --> 00:44:27,909 But Richard Lenski is here, mentioned in this book, 581 00:44:28,259 --> 00:44:31,027 and it's called "Evolution in the Lab". 582 00:44:31,411 --> 00:44:35,787 So the ability to grow on citrate is said to be evolution. 583 00:44:35,787 --> 00:44:39,802 And there are those that say, "Hey! This is against the Creationist." 584 00:44:39,802 --> 00:44:42,988 For instance, Jerry Coin from University of Chicago says, 585 00:44:42,988 --> 00:44:45,750 "Lenski's experiment is also yet another poke in the eye 586 00:44:45,750 --> 00:44:47,312 for anti-evolutionists." 587 00:44:47,312 --> 00:44:50,823 He says, "The thing I like most is it says you can get 588 00:44:50,823 --> 00:44:54,475 these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events." 589 00:44:54,475 --> 00:44:57,940 But is it a poke in the eye for anti-evolutionists? 590 00:44:57,940 --> 00:45:01,366 Is it really seeing complex traits evolving? 591 00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:06,412 What does it mean that some of these bacteria are able to grow on citrate? 592 00:45:06,412 --> 00:45:10,566 Let me introduce you to another biblical Creationist, who is a scientist. 593 00:45:10,566 --> 00:45:12,785 Hi, my name's Dr. Andrew Fabich. 594 00:45:12,785 --> 00:45:16,246 I got my PhD from University of Oklahoma in Microbiology. 595 00:45:16,246 --> 00:45:20,133 I teach at Liberty University and I do research on e-coli in the intestine. 596 00:45:20,563 --> 00:45:25,565 I've published it in secular journals from the American Society for Microbiology, 597 00:45:26,163 --> 00:45:30,808 including infection immunity and applied environmental microbiology 598 00:45:30,808 --> 00:45:32,019 as well as several others. 599 00:45:32,019 --> 00:45:35,400 My work has been cited even in the past year in the journals Nature, 600 00:45:35,410 --> 00:45:38,044 Science Translational Medicine, Public Library of Science, 601 00:45:38,044 --> 00:45:41,677 Public Library of Science Genetics. It's cited regularly 602 00:45:41,677 --> 00:45:46,462 in those journals and while I was taught nothing but evolution, 603 00:45:46,462 --> 00:45:48,089 I don't accept that position. 604 00:45:48,089 --> 00:45:50,333 I do my research from a creation perspective. 605 00:45:50,797 --> 00:45:54,267 When I look at the evidence that people cite as e-coli, 606 00:45:54,267 --> 00:46:01,030 supposedly, evolving over 30 years, over 30,000 generations in the lab, 607 00:46:01,032 --> 00:46:04,066 and people say that it is now able to grow on citrate, 608 00:46:04,066 --> 00:46:06,080 I don't deny that it grows on citrate, 609 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,511 but it's not any kind of new information. 610 00:46:08,511 --> 00:46:11,920 The information's already there and it's just a switch 611 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,762 that gets turned on and off and that's what they reported in there. 612 00:46:15,762 --> 00:46:17,377 There's nothing new. 613 00:46:17,377 --> 00:46:20,170 See, students need to be told what's really going on here. 614 00:46:20,170 --> 00:46:24,831 Certainly there's change, but it's not change necessary for molecules-to-man. 615 00:46:25,105 --> 00:46:26,954 Now, we could look at other predictions. 616 00:46:26,954 --> 00:46:29,209 What about evidence confirming one race? 617 00:46:29,209 --> 00:46:32,865 Well, when we look at the human population we see lots of differences. 618 00:46:32,865 --> 00:46:35,170 But based on Darwin's ideas of human evolution, 619 00:46:35,170 --> 00:46:37,457 as presented in The Descent of Man, I mean, 620 00:46:37,457 --> 00:46:39,340 Darwin did teach in The Descent of Man there were 621 00:46:39,340 --> 00:46:41,072 lower races and higher races. 622 00:46:41,072 --> 00:46:44,419 Would you believe, that back in the 1900s, one of the most 623 00:46:44,419 --> 00:46:49,555 popular biology textbooks used in the public schools in America taught this: 624 00:46:49,555 --> 00:46:51,966 At the present time there exists upon Earth 625 00:46:51,966 --> 00:46:54,897 five races or varieties of man...and finally, 626 00:46:54,899 --> 00:46:58,299 the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented 627 00:46:58,299 --> 00:47:00,863 by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America. 628 00:47:00,863 --> 00:47:03,277 Can you imagine if that was in the public schools today? 629 00:47:03,277 --> 00:47:06,380 And, yet, that's what was taught, but it was based on 630 00:47:06,380 --> 00:47:10,963 Darwin's ideas that are wrong. You have a wrong foundation. 631 00:47:10,963 --> 00:47:12,440 You're gonna have a wrong worldview. 632 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,712 Now, had they started from the Bible, and from 633 00:47:15,712 --> 00:47:18,329 the creation account in the Bible, what does it teach? 634 00:47:18,330 --> 00:47:20,528 Well, we're all descendants of Adam and Eve. 635 00:47:20,528 --> 00:47:22,753 We go through the Tower of Babel, different languages, 636 00:47:22,753 --> 00:47:25,366 so different people groups formed distinct characteristics. 637 00:47:25,366 --> 00:47:27,520 But we'd expect, we'd say, you know what, 638 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,484 that means there's biologically only one race of humans. 639 00:47:30,484 --> 00:47:33,030 Well, I mentioned Dr. Venter before. 640 00:47:33,030 --> 00:47:36,105 And he was a researcher with the human genome project. 641 00:47:36,105 --> 00:47:39,245 And you'll remember, in the year 2000, this was headline news, 642 00:47:39,245 --> 00:47:41,924 and what we read was this: they had put together 643 00:47:41,924 --> 00:47:44,502 a draft of the entire sequence of the human genome 644 00:47:44,502 --> 00:47:48,423 and unanimously declared, there is only one race - the human race. 645 00:47:48,423 --> 00:47:49,929 Wow! Who would have guessed? 646 00:47:49,929 --> 00:47:52,414 But you see there we have observational science 647 00:47:52,414 --> 00:47:54,737 confirming the Creation account, 648 00:47:54,737 --> 00:47:58,362 not confirming at all Darwin's ideas. 649 00:47:58,362 --> 00:48:00,096 Now, there's much more that can be said 650 00:48:00,096 --> 00:48:01,499 on each of these topics. 651 00:48:01,499 --> 00:48:04,690 Obviously, you can't do that in a short time like this. 652 00:48:04,690 --> 00:48:06,369 And you could do a lot more research. 653 00:48:06,369 --> 00:48:09,458 I suggest you visit our website at Answers in Genesis 654 00:48:09,458 --> 00:48:11,183 for a lot more information. 655 00:48:11,183 --> 00:48:14,612 So, the debate topic: Is creation a viable model 656 00:48:14,612 --> 00:48:17,226 of origins in today's scientific era? 657 00:48:17,226 --> 00:48:19,713 I said, we need to define the terms, 658 00:48:19,713 --> 00:48:21,294 and particularly, the term science 659 00:48:21,294 --> 00:48:23,766 and the term evolution. And I believe we need 660 00:48:23,770 --> 00:48:25,585 to understand how they are being used to impose 661 00:48:25,585 --> 00:48:29,376 an anti-God religion on generations of unsuspecting students. 662 00:48:29,856 --> 00:48:32,041 You see, I keep emphasizing we do need to 663 00:48:32,041 --> 00:48:33,980 understand the difference between experimental or 664 00:48:33,980 --> 00:48:37,047 observational science and historical science. 665 00:48:37,047 --> 00:48:38,663 And you know what? 666 00:48:38,663 --> 00:48:40,070 The secularists don't like me doing this 667 00:48:40,070 --> 00:48:41,746 because they don't want to admit 668 00:48:41,746 --> 00:48:43,943 that there's a belief aspect to what they're saying. 669 00:48:43,943 --> 00:48:46,137 And there is. And they can't get away from it. 670 00:48:46,276 --> 00:48:48,958 Let me illustrate this with a statement from Bill Nye. 671 00:48:48,958 --> 00:48:50,892 "You can show the Earth is not flat. 672 00:48:50,892 --> 00:48:53,265 You can show the Earth is not 10,000 years old." 673 00:48:53,269 --> 00:48:55,647 By the way, I agree. You can show the Earth is not flat. 674 00:48:55,647 --> 00:48:58,503 There's a video from the Galileo spacecraft showing 675 00:48:58,503 --> 00:49:00,907 the Earth, and speeded up of course, but spinning. 676 00:49:00,907 --> 00:49:03,394 You can see it's a sphere. You can observe that. 677 00:49:03,398 --> 00:49:05,895 You can't observe the age of the Earth. 678 00:49:05,900 --> 00:49:08,208 You don't see that. You see again, I emphasize, 679 00:49:08,208 --> 00:49:10,433 there's a big difference between historical science, 680 00:49:10,433 --> 00:49:13,523 talking about the past, and observational science, 681 00:49:13,523 --> 00:49:15,299 talking about the present. 682 00:49:15,565 --> 00:49:18,323 And I believe what's happening is this, that students are being 683 00:49:18,323 --> 00:49:20,849 indoctrinated by the confusion of terms: 684 00:49:20,849 --> 00:49:22,833 the hijacking of the word science and the hijacking 685 00:49:22,833 --> 00:49:26,267 of the word evolution in a bait-and-switch. 686 00:49:26,404 --> 00:49:28,667 Let me illustrate further with this video clip. 687 00:49:29,152 --> 00:49:31,893 Because here I assert that Bill Nye is equating 688 00:49:31,893 --> 00:49:34,534 observational science with historical science. 689 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,500 And I also say it's not a mystery when you understand the difference. 690 00:49:38,515 --> 00:49:42,185 Howie, people with these deeply held religious beliefs, 691 00:49:42,185 --> 00:49:45,744 they embrace that whole literal interpretation 692 00:49:45,744 --> 00:49:49,732 of the Bible as written in English, as a worldview. 693 00:49:50,032 --> 00:49:54,234 And, at the same time, they accept aspirin, 694 00:49:54,533 --> 00:49:58,838 antibiotic drugs, airplanes, but they're able 695 00:49:58,838 --> 00:50:01,567 to hold these two worldviews. And this is a mystery. 696 00:50:02,384 --> 00:50:04,564 Actually, I suggest to you it's not a mystery. 697 00:50:04,838 --> 00:50:06,617 You see, when I'm talking about antibiotics, 698 00:50:06,617 --> 00:50:09,376 aspirin, smoke detectors, jet planes, 699 00:50:09,376 --> 00:50:12,560 that's Ken Ham the Observational Science Bloke. 700 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,497 I'm an Australian. We call guy's "blokes", okay? 701 00:50:15,967 --> 00:50:18,237 But when you're talking about creation and thousands of years 702 00:50:18,237 --> 00:50:19,265 of the age of the Earth, 703 00:50:19,265 --> 00:50:20,808 that's Ken Ham the Historical Science Bloke. 704 00:50:20,808 --> 00:50:22,224 I'm willing to admit that. 705 00:50:22,224 --> 00:50:24,260 Now, when Bill Nye's talking about aspirin, 706 00:50:24,260 --> 00:50:26,320 antibiotics, jet planes, smoke detectors, 707 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:27,668 he does a great job at that. 708 00:50:27,668 --> 00:50:29,798 I used to enjoy watching him on TV too. 709 00:50:30,645 --> 00:50:32,777 That's Bill Nye the Observational Science Guy. 710 00:50:32,789 --> 00:50:35,071 But when he's talking about evolution and millions of years, 711 00:50:35,071 --> 00:50:38,898 I'm challenging him that that's Bill Nye the Historical Science Guy. 712 00:50:39,294 --> 00:50:42,439 And I challenge the evolutionist to admit the belief 713 00:50:42,439 --> 00:50:46,075 aspects of their particular worldview. 714 00:50:46,706 --> 00:50:49,330 Now, at the Creation Museum, we're only too willing 715 00:50:49,330 --> 00:50:51,510 to admit our beliefs based upon the Bible, 716 00:50:51,510 --> 00:50:53,554 but we also teach people the difference between 717 00:50:53,554 --> 00:50:55,746 beliefs and what one can actually observe 718 00:50:55,746 --> 00:50:57,070 and experiment with in the present. 719 00:50:57,070 --> 00:50:59,595 I believe we're teaching people to think critically 720 00:50:59,595 --> 00:51:02,695 and to think in the right terms about science. 721 00:51:03,157 --> 00:51:04,889 I believe it's the creationists that should be 722 00:51:04,889 --> 00:51:08,204 educating the kids out there because we're teaching 723 00:51:08,204 --> 00:51:10,915 them the right way to think. You know, we admit it. 724 00:51:10,915 --> 00:51:13,809 Our origins of historical science is based upon the Bible, 725 00:51:13,809 --> 00:51:15,896 but I'm just challenging evolutionists to admit 726 00:51:15,896 --> 00:51:17,529 the belief aspects of evolution 727 00:51:17,529 --> 00:51:19,931 and be upfront about the difference here. 728 00:51:20,209 --> 00:51:22,119 As I said, I'm only too willing to admit 729 00:51:22,119 --> 00:51:24,530 my historical science based on the Bible. 730 00:51:25,192 --> 00:51:30,047 And let me further go on to define the term "creation" as we use it. 731 00:51:30,937 --> 00:51:34,012 By creation, we mean, here at Answers in Genesis 732 00:51:34,012 --> 00:51:37,634 and the Creation Museum, we mean the account based on the Bible. 733 00:51:37,634 --> 00:51:41,299 Yes, I take Genesis as literal history, as Jesus did. 734 00:51:41,299 --> 00:51:44,951 And, here at the Creation Museum, we walk people through that history. 735 00:51:44,963 --> 00:51:47,595 We walk them through creation, the perfect creation. 736 00:51:47,595 --> 00:51:51,961 That God made Adam and Eve, land animal kinds, sea-creatures and so on. 737 00:51:51,961 --> 00:51:54,342 And then sin and death entered the world. 738 00:51:54,342 --> 00:51:56,667 There was no death before sin. 739 00:51:56,983 --> 00:52:01,013 That means how can you have billions of dead things before man sinned? 740 00:52:01,013 --> 00:52:05,651 And then, the catastrophe of Noah's flood. If there was a global flood, 741 00:52:05,651 --> 00:52:09,795 you'd expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth. 742 00:52:09,795 --> 00:52:13,487 Had to say that because a lot of our supporters would want me to. 743 00:52:13,487 --> 00:52:18,001 And what do you find?--Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth. 744 00:52:18,002 --> 00:52:22,695 Confusion, the tower of Babel. God gave different languages so you get different people groups. 745 00:52:22,695 --> 00:52:28,417 So this is the geological, astronomical, anthropological, biological history as recorded in the Bible. 746 00:52:28,417 --> 00:52:31,829 So this is concerning what happened in the past that explains the present. 747 00:52:31,829 --> 00:52:36,485 And then, of course, that God's Son stepped into history to be Jesus Christ, the God-Man 748 00:52:36,485 --> 00:52:39,389 to die on the cross, be raised from the dead. And one day there's going to be 749 00:52:39,389 --> 00:52:43,132 a new heavens and a new earth to come. And, you know, not only 750 00:52:44,046 --> 00:52:47,606 is this an understanding of history to explain the 751 00:52:47,606 --> 00:52:51,712 geology, biology, astronomy, and so on to connect the present to the past. 752 00:52:51,712 --> 00:52:54,293 But it's also a foundation for our whole world view. 753 00:52:54,293 --> 00:52:58,524 For instance, in Matthew 19, when Jesus was asked about marriage, he said, 754 00:52:58,524 --> 00:53:02,434 "Have you not read He who made them at the beginning made them male and female?" 755 00:53:02,436 --> 00:53:06,856 And said, "For this cause shall a man leave his mother and father and be joined to his wife. And they'll be one flesh" 756 00:53:06,856 --> 00:53:12,388 He quoted from Genesis as literal history--Genesis 1 and 2. God invented marriage, by the way. 757 00:53:12,388 --> 00:53:15,600 That's where marriage comes from. And it's to be a man and a woman. 758 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:20,140 And not only marriage. Ultimately, every single Biblical doctrine of theology 759 00:53:20,140 --> 00:53:22,517 directly or indirectly, is founded in Genesis. 760 00:53:22,517 --> 00:53:24,665 Why is there sin in the world? Genesis. 761 00:53:24,998 --> 00:53:26,533 Why is there death? Genesis. 762 00:53:26,837 --> 00:53:28,334 Why do we wear clothes? Genesis. 763 00:53:28,334 --> 00:53:29,556 Why did Jesus die on the cross? Genesis. 764 00:53:29,556 --> 00:53:33,124 It's a very important book. It's foundational to all Christian doctrine. 765 00:53:33,126 --> 00:53:36,700 And you see, when we look at that, what I call the seven C's of History 766 00:53:36,704 --> 00:53:38,666 that we walk people through here at the museum, 767 00:53:38,666 --> 00:53:41,476 think about how it all connects together--a perfect creation. 768 00:53:41,476 --> 00:53:43,713 It'll be perfect again in the future. 769 00:53:43,722 --> 00:53:47,293 Sin and death--end of the world. That's why God's son died on the cross 770 00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:50,194 to conquer death and offer a free gift of salvation. 771 00:53:50,465 --> 00:53:53,672 The flood of Noah's day, a reminder that the flood was a 772 00:53:53,672 --> 00:53:56,316 judgement because of man's wickedness but at the same time 773 00:53:56,316 --> 00:53:58,564 a message of God's grace and salvation. 774 00:53:58,564 --> 00:54:01,119 As Noah and his family had to go through a door to be saved, 775 00:54:01,119 --> 00:54:03,268 so we need to go through a door to be saved. 776 00:54:03,276 --> 00:54:05,460 Jesus Christ said, "I am the door. By me, if any man 777 00:54:05,460 --> 00:54:08,820 enter in, he'll be saved. And we make no apology 778 00:54:08,820 --> 00:54:11,302 about the fact that what we're on about is this: 779 00:54:11,302 --> 00:54:13,534 "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and 780 00:54:13,534 --> 00:54:15,446 believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead, 781 00:54:15,446 --> 00:54:17,835 you'll be saved. Now, as soon as I said that, 782 00:54:17,835 --> 00:54:20,324 see if people say, "See, if you allow creation in schools, 783 00:54:20,324 --> 00:54:22,519 for instance, if you'll ask students to even hear about it, 784 00:54:22,519 --> 00:54:24,298 ah, this is religion." 785 00:54:24,652 --> 00:54:26,382 You know, let me illustrate this, 786 00:54:26,382 --> 00:54:30,945 talking about a recent battle in Texas over textbooks 787 00:54:30,945 --> 00:54:35,232 in the public school. A newspaper report said this: 788 00:54:35,237 --> 00:54:37,251 "Textbook and classroom curriculum battles have long 789 00:54:37,251 --> 00:54:39,910 raged in Texas pitting creationists - those who see 790 00:54:39,910 --> 00:54:41,506 God's hand in the creation of the universe- 791 00:54:41,506 --> 00:54:42,881 against academics..." 792 00:54:42,881 --> 00:54:45,792 Stop right there. Notice creationists... academics. 793 00:54:45,792 --> 00:54:48,764 Creationists can't be academics. Creationists can't be scientists. 794 00:54:48,998 --> 00:54:51,633 See, it's the way things are worded out there. 795 00:54:52,030 --> 00:54:53,880 It's an indoctrination that's going on. 796 00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,130 We worry about religious and political ideology 797 00:54:56,133 --> 00:54:57,864 trumping scientific fact. Wait a minute. 798 00:54:57,864 --> 00:54:59,130 What do I mean by science? You're talking about 799 00:54:59,130 --> 00:55:02,167 what you observe, or are you talking about your beliefs about the past? 800 00:55:03,124 --> 00:55:07,055 Now, Kathy Miller is the president of the Texas Freedom Network and 801 00:55:07,055 --> 00:55:16,677 she has vocally spoken out. She's spoken out about this textbook battle there in Texas. 802 00:55:17,261 --> 00:55:21,662 And the mission statement of the organization she's president of says, "The Texas Freedom Network 803 00:55:21,662 --> 00:55:24,865 advances a mainstream agenda of religious freedom and individual liberties 804 00:55:24,865 --> 00:55:29,969 to counter the religious right." Religious freedom... individual liberties. Hmm. 805 00:55:29,969 --> 00:55:34,292 And then she makes this statement: "Science education..." What does she mean by science? 806 00:55:34,292 --> 00:55:38,560 "should be based on mainstream science education, not on personal idealogical beliefs 807 00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:43,263 of unqualified reviewers." Wait a minute. They want religious liberty and not personal 808 00:55:43,263 --> 00:55:48,834 ideological beliefs? I assert this: public school textbooks are using the same word "science" 809 00:55:48,834 --> 00:55:53,366 for observational and historical science. They arbitrarily define science as naturalism 810 00:55:53,369 --> 00:55:57,042 and outlaw the supernatural. They present molecules-to-man evolution as as fact. 811 00:55:57,042 --> 00:56:00,353 And they are imposing the religion of naturalism on generations of students. 812 00:56:00,353 --> 00:56:02,830 They're imposing their ideology on the students 813 00:56:02,830 --> 00:56:04,853 and everything's explained by natural processes. 814 00:56:04,853 --> 00:56:07,592 That is a religion. What do you mean by religious liberty? 815 00:56:07,592 --> 00:56:09,597 They tolerate their religion. 816 00:56:10,399 --> 00:56:12,553 See, the battle is really about authority. 817 00:56:12,553 --> 00:56:14,983 It's more than just science or evolution or creation. 818 00:56:14,983 --> 00:56:18,363 It's about who is the authority in this world, man or God? 819 00:56:18,667 --> 00:56:22,726 If you start with naturalism, then what about morals? 820 00:56:22,726 --> 00:56:24,814 Who decides right and wrong? Well, it's subjective. 821 00:56:24,814 --> 00:56:27,289 Marriage? Well, whatever you want it to be. 822 00:56:27,289 --> 00:56:29,636 Get rid of old people. I mean, why not? 823 00:56:29,636 --> 00:56:31,757 They're just animals, they're costing us a lot of money. 824 00:56:31,757 --> 00:56:35,189 Abortion. Get rid of spare cats, get rid of spare kids. We're all animals. 825 00:56:35,189 --> 00:56:38,282 But if you start from God's word, there are moral absolutes. 826 00:56:38,282 --> 00:56:40,970 God decides right and wrong. Marriage--one man and one woman. 827 00:56:40,970 --> 00:56:44,224 Sanctity of life--we care for old people. They're made in the image of God. 828 00:56:44,228 --> 00:56:47,898 Life begins at fertilization, so abortion is killing a human being. 829 00:56:48,260 --> 00:56:50,471 We do see the collapse of Christian morality 830 00:56:50,471 --> 00:56:53,163 in our culture and increasing moral relativism 831 00:56:53,163 --> 00:56:56,068 because generations of kids are being taught the religion 832 00:56:56,068 --> 00:56:59,242 of naturalism and that the Bible can't be trusted. 833 00:56:59,251 --> 00:57:03,067 And so, again, I say creation is the only viable model 834 00:57:03,067 --> 00:57:05,849 of historical science confirmed by observational science 835 00:57:05,849 --> 00:57:08,275 in today's modern scientific era. You know what? 836 00:57:08,283 --> 00:57:10,897 I'm a science teacher. I want to see kids taught science. 837 00:57:10,903 --> 00:57:14,299 I love science. I want to see more (inaudible) in the world. 838 00:57:14,467 --> 00:57:16,317 You know, if we teach them the whole universe 839 00:57:16,317 --> 00:57:19,390 is a result of natural processes and not designed 840 00:57:19,390 --> 00:57:22,389 by a creative God, they might be looking in the wrong places 841 00:57:22,389 --> 00:57:24,329 or have the wrong idea when they're looking 842 00:57:24,339 --> 00:57:27,593 at the creation in regard to how you develop technology 843 00:57:27,593 --> 00:57:30,698 because if they look at it as just random processes, 844 00:57:30,698 --> 00:57:33,433 that could totally influence the way they think. 845 00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,106 If they understand it was a perfect world marred by sin, 846 00:57:36,106 --> 00:57:38,957 that could have a great affect on how they then look 847 00:57:38,957 --> 00:57:41,966 for overcoming diseases and problems in the world. 848 00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:45,622 I want children to be taught the right foundation, 849 00:57:45,622 --> 00:57:47,863 that there's a God who created them, who loves them, 850 00:57:47,863 --> 00:57:52,130 who died on the cross for them and that they're special. 851 00:57:52,130 --> 00:57:53,798 They're made in the image of God. 852 00:57:55,069 --> 00:57:56,581 (moderator) There you go. Thank you, Mr. Ham. 853 00:57:56,581 --> 00:58:11,823 -We can applaud Mr. Ham's presentation. -(audience applauds) 854 00:58:11,823 --> 00:58:14,076 And, you know, it did occur to me when you had 855 00:58:14,076 --> 00:58:16,875 my old friend Larry King up there, you could've just asked him. 856 00:58:17,276 --> 00:58:20,499 He's been around a long time. And he's a smart guy! 857 00:58:20,499 --> 00:58:25,086 He could probably answer for all of us. Now, let's all be 858 00:58:25,086 --> 00:58:28,434 attentive to Mr. Nye as he gives us his 30 minute presentation. 859 00:58:28,668 --> 00:58:31,872 Thank you very much and, Mr. Ham, I learned something. 860 00:58:31,875 --> 00:58:37,266 Thank you. But let's take it back around to question at hand: 861 00:58:37,477 --> 00:58:41,462 does Ken Ham's creation model hold up? Is it viable? 862 00:58:42,590 --> 00:58:46,699 So, for me, of course...well...take a look. 863 00:58:46,899 --> 00:58:53,366 We're here in Kentucky on layer upon layer upon layer of limestone. 864 00:58:53,493 --> 00:58:56,401 I stopped at the side of the road today and picked up 865 00:58:56,401 --> 00:59:00,267 just a piece of limestone. It has a fossil right there. 866 00:59:00,513 --> 00:59:05,133 Now, in these many, many layers, in this vicinity of Kentucky, 867 00:59:05,467 --> 00:59:10,263 there are coral animal--fossils, Zooxanthella-- 868 00:59:10,263 --> 00:59:11,913 and when you look at it closely, 869 00:59:11,913 --> 00:59:14,450 you can see that they lived their entire lives. 870 00:59:14,450 --> 00:59:18,199 They lived typically 20 years, sometimes more than that 871 00:59:18,567 --> 00:59:20,500 when the water conditions are correct. 872 00:59:20,820 --> 00:59:26,034 And so we are standing on millions of layers of ancient life. 873 00:59:27,225 --> 00:59:30,172 How could those animals have lived their entire life, 874 00:59:30,519 --> 00:59:33,833 and formed these layers, in just 4,000 years? 875 00:59:34,220 --> 00:59:38,567 There isn't enough time since Mr. Ham's flood 876 00:59:38,735 --> 00:59:43,466 for this limestone that we're standing on to come into existence. 877 00:59:46,097 --> 00:59:49,103 My scientific colleagues go to places like Greenland, 878 00:59:49,103 --> 00:59:52,307 the Arctic, they go to Antarctica, and they drill 879 00:59:52,307 --> 00:59:57,211 into the ice with hollow drill bits. It's not that extraordinary. 880 00:59:57,211 --> 00:59:59,816 Many of you have probably done it yourselves, drilling other things. 881 00:59:59,816 --> 01:00:02,999 Hole saws to put locks in doors, for example. 882 01:00:03,421 --> 01:00:09,433 And we pull out long cylinders of ice, long ice rods. 883 01:00:09,570 --> 01:00:14,298 And these are made of snow and it's called "snow ice". 884 01:00:14,875 --> 01:00:19,695 And snow ice forms over the winter as snowflakes fall 885 01:00:19,695 --> 01:00:23,024 and are crushed down by subsequent layers. They're crushed together, 886 01:00:23,024 --> 01:00:26,513 entrapping the little bubbles and the little bubbles must 887 01:00:26,513 --> 01:00:30,288 needs be ancient atmosphere. There's nobody running around 888 01:00:30,288 --> 01:00:34,196 with a hypodermic needle, squirting ancient atmosphere into the bubbles. 889 01:00:34,599 --> 01:00:41,187 And we find certain of these cylinders to have 680,000 layers. 890 01:00:41,187 --> 01:00:46,533 680,000 snow/winter/summer cycles. 891 01:00:47,329 --> 01:00:53,433 How could it be that just 4,000 years ago all of this ice formed? 892 01:00:53,801 --> 01:00:56,332 Let's just run some numbers. 893 01:00:57,184 --> 01:01:00,899 This is some scenes from the lovely Antarctic. 894 01:01:01,518 --> 01:01:05,399 Let's say we have 680,000 layers of snow ice 895 01:01:05,488 --> 01:01:08,033 and 4,000 years since the Great Flood. 896 01:01:08,452 --> 01:01:13,610 That would mean we'd need 170 winter-summer cycles 897 01:01:13,610 --> 01:01:17,173 every year, for the last 4,000 years. 898 01:01:17,173 --> 01:01:21,113 I mean, wouldn't someone have noticed that? Wow! 899 01:01:21,113 --> 01:01:22,909 Wouldn't someone have noticed that there's been 900 01:01:22,909 --> 01:01:25,832 winter-summer-winter-summer 170 times one year? 901 01:01:26,694 --> 01:01:33,889 If we go to California, we find enormous stands of bristlecone pines. 902 01:01:33,889 --> 01:01:38,348 Some of them are over 6,000 years old. 6,800 years old. 903 01:01:38,348 --> 01:01:45,009 There's a famous tree in Sweden, Old Tjikko, is 9,550 years old. 904 01:01:45,380 --> 01:01:53,200 How could these trees be there if there was an enormous flood just 4,000 years ago? 905 01:01:53,380 --> 01:01:55,915 You can try this yourself, everybody. 906 01:01:55,915 --> 01:01:58,453 Get, I mean, I don't mean to be mean to trees, 907 01:01:58,453 --> 01:02:02,863 but get a sapling and put it under water for a year. 908 01:02:02,871 --> 01:02:06,832 It will not survive in general. Nor will its seeds. 909 01:02:06,832 --> 01:02:10,646 They just won't make it. So how could these trees 910 01:02:10,646 --> 01:02:15,201 be that old if the Earth is only 4,000 years old? 911 01:02:15,283 --> 01:02:18,407 Now, when we go to the Grand Canyon--which is an astonishing place 912 01:02:18,407 --> 01:02:22,623 and I recommend to everybody in the world to someday visit the Grand Canyon-- 913 01:02:22,623 --> 01:02:25,965 you find layer upon layer of ancient rocks. 914 01:02:26,446 --> 01:02:31,200 And if there was this enormous flood that you speak of, 915 01:02:31,663 --> 01:02:35,299 wouldn't there have been churning and bubbling and roiling? 916 01:02:35,553 --> 01:02:38,186 How would these things have settled out? 917 01:02:38,186 --> 01:02:42,700 Your claim that they settled out in an extraordinary short amount of time 918 01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:47,818 is for me, not satisfactory. You can look at these rocks. You can look at rocks that are younger. 919 01:02:47,818 --> 01:02:53,564 You can go to seashores where there's sand. This is what geologists on the outside do, 920 01:02:53,725 --> 01:02:58,598 study the rate at which soil is deposited at the end of rivers and deltas. 921 01:02:58,866 --> 01:03:06,066 And we can see that it takes a long, long time for sediments to turn to stone. 922 01:03:06,211 --> 01:03:11,881 Also, in this picture you can see where one type of sediment has intruded on another type. 923 01:03:11,881 --> 01:03:18,113 Now, if that was uniform, wouldn't we expect it all to be even, without intrusion? 924 01:03:18,113 --> 01:03:23,223 Furthermore, you can find places in the Grand Canyon where you see an ancient riverbed on that side 925 01:03:23,223 --> 01:03:28,146 going to an ancient riverbed on that side and the Colorado River has cut through it. 926 01:03:28,146 --> 01:03:34,656 And by the way, if this great flood drained through the Grand Canyon, 927 01:03:34,656 --> 01:03:38,065 wouldn't there have been a Grand Canyon on every continent? 928 01:03:38,065 --> 01:03:43,313 How could we not have Grand Canyons everywhere if this water drained away in this extraordinary 929 01:03:43,313 --> 01:03:49,667 short amount of time? Four thousand years? Now when you look at these layers carefully, 930 01:03:50,250 --> 01:03:56,668 you find these beautiful fossils. And when I say beautiful, I am inspired by them. They are remarkable 931 01:03:56,668 --> 01:04:03,389 because we are looking at the past. You find down low. You'll find what you might consider 932 01:04:03,389 --> 01:04:09,296 is, uh, rudimentary sea animals. Up above you'll find the famous trilobytes. 933 01:04:09,358 --> 01:04:15,030 Above that you might find some clams, some oysters. And above that you find some mammals. 934 01:04:15,324 --> 01:04:22,518 You never, ever find a higher animal mixed in with a lower one. You never find a lower one 935 01:04:22,518 --> 01:04:28,371 trying to swim its way to a higher one. If it all happened in such an extraordinary short amount of time, 936 01:04:28,373 --> 01:04:33,668 if this water drained away just like that, wouldn't we expect to see some turbulence? 937 01:04:33,668 --> 01:04:41,395 And by the way, anyone here, really, if you can find one example of that, one example of that 938 01:04:41,395 --> 01:04:47,726 anywhere in the world, the scientists of the world challenge you. They would embrace you. You would be a hero. 939 01:04:47,726 --> 01:04:52,066 You would change the world if you could find one example of that anywhere. 940 01:04:52,066 --> 01:04:57,100 People have looked, and looked and looked. They have not found a single one. 941 01:04:58,804 --> 01:05:07,005 Now here's an interesting thing. These are fossil skulls that people have found all around the world. 942 01:05:07,005 --> 01:05:13,468 It's by no means representative of all the fossil skulls that have been found, but these are all over the place. 943 01:05:14,011 --> 01:05:24,331 Now, if you were to look at these, I can assure you, not any of them is a gorilla. Right? 944 01:05:24,847 --> 01:05:33,513 If as Mr. Ham and his associates claim, there was just man and then everybody else, there were just 945 01:05:33,513 --> 01:05:39,633 humans and all other species, where would you put modern humans among these skulls? 946 01:05:40,404 --> 01:05:46,757 How did all these skulls get all over the earth in these extraordinary fashion? Where would you put us? 947 01:05:47,457 --> 01:05:52,566 I can tell you we are on there and I encourage you, when you go home, to look it up. 948 01:05:54,478 --> 01:06:04,529 Now, one of the extraordinary claims associated with Mr. Ham's worldview is that this giant boat 949 01:06:04,837 --> 01:06:11,850 a very large wooden ship, went aground safely on a mountain in the Middle, what we now call the Middle East. 950 01:06:11,850 --> 01:06:19,930 And so places like Australia are populated then by animals who somehow managed to get 951 01:06:20,460 --> 01:06:25,420 from the Middle East all the way to Australia in the last 4,000 years. 952 01:06:26,147 --> 01:06:32,324 Now that, to me, is an extraordinary claim. We would expect then, somewhere between the Middle East 953 01:06:32,324 --> 01:06:37,382 and Australia, we would expect to find evidence of kangaroos. We would expect to find 954 01:06:37,992 --> 01:06:43,134 some fossils, some bones in the last 4,000 years. Somebody would have been hopping along there 955 01:06:43,134 --> 01:06:46,627 and died along the way, and we'd find them. And furthermore, there's a claim 956 01:06:46,627 --> 01:06:52,258 that there was a land bridge that allowed these animals to get from Asia all the way 957 01:06:52,258 --> 01:06:57,860 to the continent of Australia. And that land bridge has disappeared, has disappeared in the last 958 01:06:57,860 --> 01:07:05,690 4,000 years. No navigator, no diver, no U.S. Navy submarine, no one has ever detected any evidence 959 01:07:05,690 --> 01:07:12,144 of this, let alone any evidence of fossils of kangaroos. So, your expectation is not met. 960 01:07:12,144 --> 01:07:20,910 It doesn't seem to hold up. So, let's see. If there are 4,000 years since Ken Ham's flood 961 01:07:20,910 --> 01:07:27,532 and let's say, as he said many times, there are 7,000 kinds, 962 01:07:27,953 --> 01:07:35,313 today the very, very lowest estimate is that there are about 8.7 million species. 963 01:07:35,313 --> 01:07:39,829 But a much more reasonable estimate is it's 50 million, or even 100 million, 964 01:07:39,829 --> 01:07:45,283 when you start counting the viruses and the bacteria and all the beetles that must be extant 965 01:07:45,283 --> 01:07:51,740 in the tropical rain forests that we haven't found. So we'll take a number which I think is pretty reasonable, 966 01:07:51,740 --> 01:07:59,859 16 million species today. If these came from 7,000 kinds, 967 01:07:59,859 --> 01:08:03,502 let's say we have 7,000 subtracted from 15 million, 968 01:08:03,502 --> 01:08:09,895 that's 15,993. If 4,000 years, we have 365.25 days a year, 969 01:08:10,305 --> 01:08:16,024 we would expect to find 11 new species every day. 970 01:08:16,024 --> 01:08:22,265 So you'd go out into your yard, you wouldn't just find a different bird, a new bird 971 01:08:22,291 --> 01:08:26,760 you'd find a different kind of bird, a whole new species, a bird! 972 01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:31,727 Every day, a new species of fish, a new species of organisms you can't see, and so on. 973 01:08:31,727 --> 01:08:38,633 I mean, this would be enormous news. The last 4,000 years people would have seen these changes among us. 974 01:08:38,633 --> 01:08:43,509 So the Cincinnati Enquirer, I imagine, would carry a column right next to the weather report: 975 01:08:43,509 --> 01:08:50,251 Today's New Species, and it would list these 11 every day, but we see no evidence of that. 976 01:08:50,251 --> 01:08:54,266 There's no evidence of these species. There simply isn't enough time. 977 01:08:54,333 --> 01:08:58,731 Now as you may know, I was graduated from engineering school and I was, 978 01:08:58,733 --> 01:09:07,298 I got a job at Boeing. I worked on 747s. I, okay everybody relax, I was very well supervised. 979 01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:12,916 Everything's fine. There's a tube in the 747 I kind of think of that's my tube. 980 01:09:12,916 --> 01:09:17,926 But that aside, I travelled the highways of Washington state quite a bit. 981 01:09:17,926 --> 01:09:23,631 I was a young guy. I had a motorcycle. I used to go mountain climbing in Washington state... Oregon. 982 01:09:24,071 --> 01:09:32,266 And you can drive along and find these enormous boulders on top of the ground, enormous rocks, 983 01:09:32,315 --> 01:09:40,965 huge, sitting on top of the ground. Now, out there, in regular academic pursuits, regular geology, 984 01:09:41,573 --> 01:09:46,892 people have discovered that there was, used to be a lake in what is now Montana 985 01:09:46,892 --> 01:09:50,476 which we charmingly refer to as Lake Missoula. 986 01:09:50,476 --> 01:09:54,698 It's not there now but the evidence for it, of course, if I may, overwhelming. 987 01:09:54,992 --> 01:10:01,309 And so, an ice dam would form at Lake Missoula and once in a while it would break. 988 01:10:01,309 --> 01:10:06,514 It would build up and break. And there were multiple floods in my old state of Washington state. 989 01:10:06,514 --> 01:10:12,869 And, just, before we go on, let me just say, go Seahawks! That was very gratifying, very gratifying for me. 990 01:10:13,367 --> 01:10:20,728 Anyway you drive along the road and there are these rocks. So, if as is asserted here at this facility, 991 01:10:20,728 --> 01:10:25,233 that the heavier rocks would sink to the bottom during a flood event, 992 01:10:25,246 --> 01:10:29,246 the big rocks, and especially their shape, instead of aerodynamic, 993 01:10:29,246 --> 01:10:34,240 the hydrodynamic, the water changing shape, as water flows past, 994 01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:38,919 you'd expect them to sink to the bottom. But here are these enormous rocks right on the surface. 995 01:10:38,919 --> 01:10:42,857 And there's no shortage of them. If you go driving in Washington state or Oregon 996 01:10:42,857 --> 01:10:49,803 they're readily available. So how could those be there if the Earth is just 4,000 years old. 997 01:10:49,803 --> 01:10:53,432 How could they be there if this one flood caused that? 998 01:10:53,973 --> 01:11:01,620 Another remarkable thing I'd like everybody to consider, alone inherent in this worldview, 999 01:11:01,620 --> 01:11:11,056 is that somehow Noah and his family were able to build a wooden ship that would house 1000 01:11:11,056 --> 01:11:17,967 14,000 individuals. There were 7,000 kinds and then, there's a boy and a girl for each one of those, 1001 01:11:17,967 --> 01:11:22,893 so there's about 14,000... 8 people. And these people were unskilled. 1002 01:11:23,205 --> 01:11:27,246 As far as anybody knows they had never built a wooden ship before. 1003 01:11:27,246 --> 01:11:31,366 Furthermore, they had to get all these animals on there. And they had to feed them. 1004 01:11:31,366 --> 01:11:37,703 And I understand that Mr. Ham has some explanations for that, which I frankly find extraordinary but 1005 01:11:38,873 --> 01:11:45,966 this is the premise of the bit. And we can then run a test, a scientific test. 1006 01:11:46,075 --> 01:11:52,423 People in the early 1900s built an extraordinary, large wooden ship, the Wyoming. 1007 01:11:52,423 --> 01:12:00,056 It was a six-masted schooner, the largest one ever built. It had a motor on it for winching cables and stuff. 1008 01:12:00,056 --> 01:12:07,781 But this boat had a great difficulty. It was not as big as the Titanic, but it was a very long ship. 1009 01:12:07,781 --> 01:12:16,186 It would twist in the sea. It would twist this way, this way, and this way. 1010 01:12:16,186 --> 01:12:22,784 And in all that twisting, it leaked. It leaked like crazy. The crew could not keep the ship dry. 1011 01:12:22,784 --> 01:12:30,767 And indeed, it eventually foundered and sank, a loss of all 14 hands. So there were 14 crewmen 1012 01:12:31,366 --> 01:12:35,503 aboard a ship built by very, very skilled shipwrights in New England. 1013 01:12:35,503 --> 01:12:39,903 These guys were the best in the world at wooden shipbuilding. And they couldn't build 1014 01:12:39,903 --> 01:12:45,079 a boat as big as the Ark is claimed to have been. 1015 01:12:45,079 --> 01:12:51,186 Is that reasonable? Is that possible that the best shipbuilders in the world couldn't do 1016 01:12:51,186 --> 01:12:57,863 what eight unskilled people, men and their wives, were able to do? 1017 01:12:57,863 --> 01:13:06,377 If you visit the National Zoo, in Washington D.C., it's 163 acres. And they have 400 species. 1018 01:13:06,377 --> 01:13:12,336 By the way, this picture that you're seeing was taken by spacecraft in space, orbiting the Earth. 1019 01:13:12,336 --> 01:13:17,344 If you told my grandfather, let alone my father, that we had that capability, 1020 01:13:17,344 --> 01:13:21,941 they would have been amazed. That capability comes from our fundamental understanding 1021 01:13:21,941 --> 01:13:29,380 of gravity, of material science, of physics, and life science, where you go looking. 1022 01:13:29,380 --> 01:13:35,657 This place is often, as any zoo, is often deeply concerned and criticized for how it treats its animals. 1023 01:13:36,330 --> 01:13:44,791 They have 400 species on 163 acres, 66 hectares. Is it reasonable that Noah and his colleagues, 1024 01:13:44,791 --> 01:13:51,240 his family, were able to maintain 14,000 animals and themselves, and feed them, aboard a ship 1025 01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:54,366 that was bigger than anyone's ever been able to build? 1026 01:13:54,805 --> 01:14:02,479 Now, here's the thing, what we want in science, science as practiced on the outside, 1027 01:14:03,260 --> 01:14:11,010 is an ability to predict. We want to have a natural law that is so obvious and clear, 1028 01:14:11,010 --> 01:14:15,072 so well understood that we can make predictions about what will happen. 1029 01:14:15,072 --> 01:14:20,367 We can predict that we can put a spacecraft in orbit and take a picture of Washington D.C. 1030 01:14:20,729 --> 01:14:25,312 We can predict that if we provide this much room for an elephant, it will live healthily 1031 01:14:25,312 --> 01:14:30,743 for a certain amount of time. I'll give you an example. 1032 01:14:32,808 --> 01:14:38,765 In the explanation provided by traditional science, of how we came to be, 1033 01:14:38,875 --> 01:14:44,284 we find as Mr. Ham alluded to many times in his recent remarks, 1034 01:14:44,284 --> 01:14:49,369 we find a sequence of animals in what, generally, is called "the fossil record." 1035 01:14:49,369 --> 01:14:53,268 This would be to say when we look at the layers, that you would find in Kentucky, 1036 01:14:53,268 --> 01:14:58,267 you look at them carefully, you find a sequence of animals, a succession. 1037 01:14:58,568 --> 01:15:01,710 And as one might expect, when you are looking at old records 1038 01:15:01,710 --> 01:15:05,198 there's some pieces seem to be missing, a gap. 1039 01:15:05,776 --> 01:15:09,150 So scientists got to thinking about this. 1040 01:15:09,150 --> 01:15:13,976 There are lungfish that jump from pond to pond in Florida 1041 01:15:13,976 --> 01:15:15,958 and end up in people's swimming pools. 1042 01:15:15,958 --> 01:15:19,957 And there are amphibians, frogs and toads, croaking and carrying on. 1043 01:15:19,957 --> 01:15:25,668 And so people wondered if there wasn't a fossil or an organism, 1044 01:15:25,668 --> 01:15:29,165 an animal, that had lived, that had characteristics of both. 1045 01:15:29,718 --> 01:15:33,690 People over the years had found that in Canada, 1046 01:15:33,690 --> 01:15:36,716 there was clearly a fossil marsh-- 1047 01:15:36,716 --> 01:15:39,685 a place that used to be a swamp that had dried out. 1048 01:15:40,122 --> 01:15:44,213 And they found all kinds of happy swamp fossils there: 1049 01:15:44,213 --> 01:15:49,316 ferns, organisms, animals, fish that were recognized. 1050 01:15:49,316 --> 01:15:52,889 And people realized that if this, with the age of the rocks there, 1051 01:15:52,889 --> 01:15:58,261 as computed by traditional scientists, with the age of the rocks there, 1052 01:15:58,261 --> 01:16:01,860 this would be a reasonable place to look for an animal, 1053 01:16:01,860 --> 01:16:07,672 a fossil of an animal that lived there. And, indeed, scientists found it. 1054 01:16:07,672 --> 01:16:10,864 Tiktaalik, this fish-lizard guy. 1055 01:16:11,478 --> 01:16:16,618 And they found several specimens, it wasn't one individual. 1056 01:16:16,618 --> 01:16:19,248 In other words, they made a prediction, that this animal 1057 01:16:19,248 --> 01:16:26,037 would be found and it was found. So far, Mr. Ham and his worldview, 1058 01:16:26,037 --> 01:16:30,006 the Ken Ham creation model, does not have this capability. 1059 01:16:30,006 --> 01:16:34,000 It cannot make predictions and show results. 1060 01:16:34,094 --> 01:16:38,497 Here's an extraordinary one that I find remarkable. 1061 01:16:39,695 --> 01:16:45,685 There are certain fish, the Topminnows, that have 1062 01:16:45,685 --> 01:16:51,328 the remarkable ability to have sex with other fish, 1063 01:16:51,678 --> 01:16:55,873 traditional fish sex, and they can have sex with themselves. 1064 01:16:55,873 --> 01:16:59,913 Now, one of the old questions in life science, everybody, 1065 01:16:59,913 --> 01:17:04,601 one of the old chin strokers is why does any organism, 1066 01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:12,691 whether you're an ash tree, a sea jelly, a squid, a marmot, 1067 01:17:12,691 --> 01:17:17,909 why does anybody have sex? I mean, there are more bacteria 1068 01:17:17,909 --> 01:17:21,735 in your tummy right now then there are humans on Earth. 1069 01:17:21,735 --> 01:17:23,444 And bacteria, they don't bother with that, man. 1070 01:17:23,444 --> 01:17:26,141 They split themselves in half, they get new bacteria! 1071 01:17:26,141 --> 01:17:29,816 Like, let's get her done! Let's go. But why does any-- 1072 01:17:29,816 --> 01:17:34,528 think of all the trouble a rose bush goes to make a flower and the thorns 1073 01:17:34,528 --> 01:17:41,199 and the bees flying around, interacting--why does anybody bother with all that? 1074 01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:45,707 And the answer seems to be...your enemies. 1075 01:17:45,707 --> 01:17:51,764 And your enemies are not lions and tigers and bears...oh my! 1076 01:17:51,764 --> 01:17:55,909 No, your enemies are germs and parasites. 1077 01:17:55,909 --> 01:17:59,630 That's what's gonna get you. Germs and parasites. 1078 01:17:59,630 --> 01:18:05,723 My first cousin's son died tragically from essentially the flu. 1079 01:18:05,723 --> 01:18:09,039 This is not some story I heard about. This is my first cousin, once removed. 1080 01:18:09,039 --> 01:18:13,219 Because, apparently, the virus had the right genes to attack his genes. 1081 01:18:13,219 --> 01:18:16,476 So when you have sex you have a new set of genes. 1082 01:18:16,476 --> 01:18:20,904 You have a new mixture. So people studied these Topminnows. 1083 01:18:20,904 --> 01:18:24,830 And they found that the ones who reproduced sexually 1084 01:18:25,097 --> 01:18:29,981 had fewer parasites that the ones who reproduced on their own. 1085 01:18:29,981 --> 01:18:33,583 This Black Spot disease--wait, wait, there's more. 1086 01:18:33,583 --> 01:18:37,921 In these populations, with flooding and so on, when river ponds get isolated, 1087 01:18:37,921 --> 01:18:40,532 then they dry up, then the river flows again. 1088 01:18:41,135 --> 01:18:44,995 In between, some of the fish will have sex with other fish, 1089 01:18:44,995 --> 01:18:49,299 sometimes, and they'll have sex on their own, what's called asexually. 1090 01:18:50,070 --> 01:18:52,825 And those fish, the ones that are in between, sometimes this, 1091 01:18:52,825 --> 01:18:57,196 sometimes that, they have an intermediate number of infections. 1092 01:18:57,683 --> 01:19:02,799 In other words, the explanation provided by evolution made a prediction. 1093 01:19:03,425 --> 01:19:06,629 And the prediction's extraordinary and subtle, but there it is. 1094 01:19:07,017 --> 01:19:09,255 How else would you explain it? 1095 01:19:09,255 --> 01:19:14,412 And to Mr. Ham and his followers I say this is something we in science want. 1096 01:19:14,412 --> 01:19:18,190 We want the ability to predict. And your assertion 1097 01:19:18,190 --> 01:19:21,491 that there's some difference between the natural laws 1098 01:19:21,491 --> 01:19:24,746 that I use to observe the world today and the natural laws 1099 01:19:24,746 --> 01:19:30,062 that existed 4,000 years ago is extraordinary and unsettling. 1100 01:19:31,433 --> 01:19:35,056 I travel around. I have a great many family members 1101 01:19:35,056 --> 01:19:39,516 in Danville, Virginia, one of the U.S's most livable cities. 1102 01:19:39,516 --> 01:19:46,768 It's lovely. And I was driving along and there was a sign in front of a church: 1103 01:19:46,768 --> 01:19:50,415 "Big Bang theory? You got to be kidding me. God." 1104 01:19:51,037 --> 01:19:56,073 Now, everybody, why would someone at the church, a pastor for example, 1105 01:19:56,353 --> 01:20:03,179 put that sign up unless he or she didn't believe 1106 01:20:03,179 --> 01:20:06,963 that the big bang was a real thing? I just want to review, 1107 01:20:06,963 --> 01:20:09,860 briefly, with everybody why we accept, 1108 01:20:10,286 --> 01:20:13,931 in the outside world, why we accept the Big Bang. 1109 01:20:16,127 --> 01:20:23,169 Edwin Hubble, sorry, there you go, you gotta be kidding me God. 1110 01:20:23,250 --> 01:20:28,499 Edwin Hubble was sitting at Mount Wilson, which is up from Pasadena, California. 1111 01:20:28,850 --> 01:20:32,864 On a clear day you can look down and see where the Rose Parade goes. 1112 01:20:32,864 --> 01:20:35,020 It's that close to civilization. 1113 01:20:35,020 --> 01:20:40,329 But even in the early 1900's, the people who selected this site for astronomy 1114 01:20:40,329 --> 01:20:45,493 picked an excellent site. The clouds and smog are below you. 1115 01:20:45,493 --> 01:20:51,349 And Edwin Hubble sat there at this very big telescope night after night studying the heavens. 1116 01:20:51,819 --> 01:20:58,365 And he found that the stars are moving apart. The stars are moving apart. 1117 01:20:58,790 --> 01:21:07,210 And he wasn't sure why. But it was clear that the stars are moving farther and farther apart all the time. 1118 01:21:07,661 --> 01:21:11,166 So people talked about it for a couple decades. 1119 01:21:11,166 --> 01:21:15,562 And then eventually another astronomer, almost a couple decades, another astronomer 1120 01:21:15,562 --> 01:21:20,595 Fred Hoyle just remarked, "Well, it was like there was a big bang. 1121 01:21:20,595 --> 01:21:24,774 There was an explosion. This is to say; since everything's moving apart, 1122 01:21:24,774 --> 01:21:28,363 it's very reasonable that at one time they were all together. 1123 01:21:28,363 --> 01:21:32,691 And there's a place from whence, or rather whence, these things expanded." 1124 01:21:32,691 --> 01:21:35,063 And it was a remarkable insight. 1125 01:21:35,063 --> 01:21:38,433 But people went still questioning it for decades. 1126 01:21:38,433 --> 01:21:43,429 Scientists, conventional scientists, questioning it for decades. 1127 01:21:44,736 --> 01:21:51,294 These two researchers wanted to listen for radio signals from space--radio astronomy. 1128 01:21:51,294 --> 01:21:57,596 And this is while we have visible light for our eyes, there is a whole other bunch of waves of light 1129 01:21:57,596 --> 01:22:01,614 that are much longer. The microwaves in your oven are about that long. 1130 01:22:01,614 --> 01:22:07,761 The radar at the airport is about that long. Your FM radio signals about like this. 1131 01:22:08,411 --> 01:22:13,776 AM radio signals are a kilometer--they're a couple, several soccer fields. 1132 01:22:14,136 --> 01:22:21,201 They went out listening. And there was this hiss, this hisssssss, all the time 1133 01:22:21,201 --> 01:22:24,993 that wouldn't go away. And they thought "Oh! Doggone it. There's some loose 1134 01:22:24,993 --> 01:22:29,782 connector." They plugged in the connector. They rescrewed it. They made it tight. 1135 01:22:29,782 --> 01:22:31,957 They turned it this way. The hiss was still there. 1136 01:22:31,957 --> 01:22:33,539 They turned it that way. It was still there. 1137 01:22:33,539 --> 01:22:38,659 They thought it was pigeon droppings that had affected the reception of this "horn" it's called. 1138 01:22:38,659 --> 01:22:42,427 This thing is still there. It's in Basking Ridge, New Jersey. 1139 01:22:42,427 --> 01:22:49,419 It's a national historic site. And Arno Pinzius and Robert Wilson had found 1140 01:22:49,419 --> 01:22:55,283 this cosmic background sound that was predicted by astronomers. 1141 01:22:55,283 --> 01:22:58,873 Astronomers running the numbers, doing math, predicted 1142 01:22:58,873 --> 01:23:02,315 that in the cosmos would be left over this echo, 1143 01:23:02,315 --> 01:23:06,539 this energy, from the Big Bang that would be detectable. 1144 01:23:06,539 --> 01:23:13,629 And they detected it. We built the Cosmic Observatory for Background Emissions, the COBE spacecraft, 1145 01:23:13,629 --> 01:23:17,984 and it matched exactly, exactly the astronomers predictions. 1146 01:23:18,572 --> 01:23:22,011 You gotta respect that. It's a wonderful thing. 1147 01:23:22,426 --> 01:23:29,383 Now, along that line is some interest in the age of the earth. 1148 01:23:29,383 --> 01:23:34,650 Right now, it's generally agreed that the Big Bang happened 13.7 billion years ago. 1149 01:23:35,540 --> 01:23:41,026 What we can do on earth. These elements that we all know on the Periodic Table of Chemicals, 1150 01:23:41,026 --> 01:23:46,270 even ones we don't know, were created when stars explode. 1151 01:23:46,270 --> 01:23:51,202 And I look like nobody. But I attended a lecture by Hans Betta who won a Nobel 1152 01:23:51,202 --> 01:23:55,732 Prize for discovering the process by which stars create all these elements. 1153 01:23:56,073 --> 01:24:02,333 The one that interests me especially is our good friends Rubidium and Strontium. 1154 01:24:02,333 --> 01:24:06,383 Rubidium becomes Strontium spontaneously. It's an interesting thing to me. 1155 01:24:06,383 --> 01:24:11,513 A neutron becomes a proton. And it goes up the Periodic Table. 1156 01:24:11,757 --> 01:24:14,847 When lava comes out of the ground, molten lava, 1157 01:24:14,847 --> 01:24:18,521 and it freezes, turns to rock, when the melt solidifies, 1158 01:24:18,521 --> 01:24:23,041 or crystalizes, it locks the Rubidium and Strontium in place. 1159 01:24:23,564 --> 01:24:30,527 And so by careful assay, by careful, by being diligent, you can tell when the rock froze. 1160 01:24:30,527 --> 01:24:36,036 You can tell how old the Rubidium and Strontium are. And you can get an age for the earth. 1161 01:24:36,036 --> 01:24:41,993 When that stuff falls on fossils, you can get a very good idea of how old the fossils are. 1162 01:24:41,993 --> 01:24:46,661 I encourage you all to go to Nebraska, go to Ashfall State Park 1163 01:24:46,661 --> 01:24:51,332 and see the astonishing fossils. It looks like a Hollywood movie. 1164 01:24:51,332 --> 01:24:56,586 There are rhinoceroses. There are three-toed horses in Nebraska. 1165 01:24:56,586 --> 01:25:01,865 None of those animals are extant today. And they are buried, catastrophically, by a 1166 01:25:01,865 --> 01:25:05,307 volcano in what is now Idaho. Is now Yellowstone National Park. 1167 01:25:05,307 --> 01:25:08,490 What is called the hot spot. People call it the super-volcano. 1168 01:25:08,490 --> 01:25:12,500 And it's the remarkable thing. Apparently, as I can tell you, as a Northwesterner around 1169 01:25:12,500 --> 01:25:16,976 for Mount St. Helen's. For full disclosure I'm on the Mount St. Helen's Board. 1170 01:25:16,976 --> 01:25:20,302 When it (explosive sound), when it goes off it gives out a great deal of gas 1171 01:25:20,302 --> 01:25:24,686 that's toxic and knock these animals out. Looking for relief, they go to a watering 1172 01:25:24,686 --> 01:25:29,396 hole. And then when the ash comes they were all buried. It's an extraordinary place. 1173 01:25:29,591 --> 01:25:36,196 Now if in the bad old days, you had heart problems, they would right away cut you open. 1174 01:25:36,779 --> 01:25:43,167 Now, we use a drug based on Rubidium to look at the inside of your heart without cutting you open. 1175 01:25:43,977 --> 01:25:51,963 Now, my Kentucky friends, I want you to consider this. Right now, there is no place 1176 01:25:51,963 --> 01:25:57,093 in the Commonwealth of Kentucky to get a degree in this kind of nuclear medicine-- 1177 01:25:57,093 --> 01:25:59,553 this kind of drugs associated with that. 1178 01:25:59,799 --> 01:26:04,333 I hope you find that troubling. I hope you're concerned about that. 1179 01:26:04,333 --> 01:26:11,078 You want scientifically literate students in your commonwealth for a better tomorrow for everybody. 1180 01:26:11,186 --> 01:26:15,465 You can, you can't get this here. You have to go out of state. 1181 01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:22,060 Now as far as the distance to stars. Understand this is very well understood. 1182 01:26:22,060 --> 01:26:26,811 We, it's February. We look at a star in February. We measure an angle to it. 1183 01:26:26,811 --> 01:26:31,301 We wait six months. We look at that same star again and we measure that angle. 1184 01:26:31,301 --> 01:26:37,117 It's the same way carpenters built this building. It's the same way surveyors surveyed the land that we're standing on. 1185 01:26:37,117 --> 01:26:42,042 And so by measuring the distance to a star, you can figure out how far away it is, that star, 1186 01:26:42,042 --> 01:26:46,290 and the stars beyond it, and the stars beyond that. There are billions of stars. 1187 01:26:46,290 --> 01:26:50,397 Billions of stars more than six thousand light years from here. 1188 01:26:50,397 --> 01:26:54,713 A light year is a unit of distance, not a unit of time. 1189 01:26:54,713 --> 01:27:00,804 There are billions of stars. Mr. Ham, how could there be billions of stars more distant 1190 01:27:00,804 --> 01:27:05,033 than six thousand years, if the world's only six thousand years old? 1191 01:27:05,033 --> 01:27:12,239 It's an extraordinary claim. There's another astronomer, Adolphe Quetele, who remarked first 1192 01:27:13,709 --> 01:27:23,723 about the reasonable man. Is it reasonable that we have ice older by a factor of a hundred than you claim the earth is? 1193 01:27:23,723 --> 01:27:26,990 We have trees that have more tree rings than the earth is old. 1194 01:27:26,990 --> 01:27:32,910 We have rocks with Rubidium and Strontium, and Uranium-Uranium, and Potassium-Argon dating 1195 01:27:32,910 --> 01:27:36,713 that are far, far, far older than you claim the earth is. 1196 01:27:36,713 --> 01:27:44,082 Could anybody have built an ark that would sustain the better than any ark anybody was able to build on the earth? 1197 01:27:44,082 --> 01:27:48,960 So, if you're asking me, and I got the impression you were, 1198 01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:55,622 is Ken Ham's creation model viable? I say "No! Absolutely not!" 1199 01:27:55,622 --> 01:28:01,961 Now, one last thing. You may not know that in the US Constitution, from the founding fathers, 1200 01:28:02,311 --> 01:28:06,383 is the sentence "to promote the progress of science and useful arts..." 1201 01:28:08,162 --> 01:28:11,939 Kentucky voters, voters who might be watching online, 1202 01:28:11,939 --> 01:28:16,733 in places like Texas, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kansas, please 1203 01:28:16,733 --> 01:28:19,914 you don't want to raise a generation of science students 1204 01:28:19,914 --> 01:28:23,494 who don't understand how we know our place in the cosmos, 1205 01:28:23,494 --> 01:28:26,487 our place in space, who don't understand natural law. 1206 01:28:26,487 --> 01:28:30,560 We need to innovate to keep the United States where it is in the world. 1207 01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:32,007 Thank you very much. 1208 01:28:32,007 --> 01:28:47,807 (applause) 1209 01:28:48,297 --> 01:28:51,467 Moderator: That's a lot to take in. I hope everybody's holding up well. 1210 01:28:51,467 --> 01:28:55,240 That's a lot of information. What we're going to have now is a five minute 1211 01:28:55,240 --> 01:28:58,962 rebuttal time for each gentleman to address the other one's comments. 1212 01:28:58,962 --> 01:29:03,929 And then there will be a five minute counter rebuttal after that. 1213 01:29:03,929 --> 01:29:06,192 Things are going to start moving a little more quickly now. 1214 01:29:06,192 --> 01:29:10,967 So at this point in particular, I want to make sure we don't have applauding or anything else going on that slows it down. 1215 01:29:10,967 --> 01:29:15,497 So, Mr. Hamm, if you'd like to begin with your five minute rebuttal first. 1216 01:29:24,860 --> 01:29:30,090 Mr. Hamm: First of all, Bill, if I was to answer all the points that you brought up, 1217 01:29:30,090 --> 01:29:33,898 the moderator would think that I was going on for millions of years. (laughter) 1218 01:29:33,898 --> 01:29:35,735 So I can only deal with some of them. 1219 01:29:35,735 --> 01:29:39,696 And you mentioned the age of the earth a couple of times, so let me deal with that. 1220 01:29:39,696 --> 01:29:44,702 As I said in my presentation, you can't observe the age of the earth. 1221 01:29:44,702 --> 01:29:48,882 I would say that comes under what we call historical origin science. 1222 01:29:48,882 --> 01:29:52,230 Now, just so you understand where I'm coming from. 1223 01:29:52,230 --> 01:29:57,098 Yes, we admit we build our origins from historical science on the Bible. 1224 01:29:57,098 --> 01:30:02,140 The Bible says God created in six days. A Hebrew word "yon" as it's used in Genesis 1 1225 01:30:02,140 --> 01:30:06,123 with evening/morning number means an ordinary day. Adam was made on day six. 1226 01:30:06,123 --> 01:30:09,969 And so, when you add up all those geneologies specifically given in the Bible 1227 01:30:09,969 --> 01:30:19,720 from Adam to Abraham you've got 2,000 years; from Abraham to Christ 2,000 years; from Christ to the present 2,000 years. 1228 01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:23,954 That's how we get 6,000 years. So that's where it comes from. Just so you know. 1229 01:30:23,954 --> 01:30:29,997 Now a lot of people say. Now, by the way, the earth's age is 4.5 billion years old. 1230 01:30:29,997 --> 01:30:35,227 And we have radioactive decay dating methods that found that. 1231 01:30:35,227 --> 01:30:38,391 But you see, we certainly observe radioactive decay 1232 01:30:38,391 --> 01:30:42,549 whether it's rubidium-strontium, whether it's uranium-lead, potassium-argon 1233 01:30:42,549 --> 01:30:46,199 But when you're talking about the past, we have a problem. 1234 01:30:46,199 --> 01:30:49,584 I'll give you a practical example. In Australia, there were engineers 1235 01:30:49,584 --> 01:30:53,165 that were trying to search out about a coal mine. 1236 01:30:53,165 --> 01:30:57,758 And so they drilled down and they found a basalt layer, a lava flow that had woody material in it-- 1237 01:30:57,758 --> 01:31:04,272 branches and twigs and so on. And when Dr. Andrew Snelling, our PhD geologist, 1238 01:31:04,272 --> 01:31:08,346 sent that to a lab in Massachusetts in 1994, they used potassium-argon 1239 01:31:08,346 --> 01:31:10,990 dating and dated it at 45 million years old. 1240 01:31:10,990 --> 01:31:15,539 Well, he also sent the wood to the radio-carbon section of the same lab 1241 01:31:15,539 --> 01:31:20,172 and that dated at 45,000 years old. 45,000 year old wood in 45 million year old rock. 1242 01:31:20,172 --> 01:31:22,296 The point is there's a problem. 1243 01:31:22,296 --> 01:31:25,190 Let me give you another example of a problem. 1244 01:31:25,190 --> 01:31:30,302 There was a lava dome that started to form in the 80's after Mt. St. Helen's erupted. 1245 01:31:30,302 --> 01:31:36,883 And in 1994 Dr. Steve Austin, another PhD geologist, actually sampled the rock there. 1246 01:31:36,883 --> 01:31:45,076 He took whole rock, crushed it, sent it to the same lab actually, I believe, and got a date of .35 million years. 1247 01:31:45,076 --> 01:31:50,256 When he separated out the minerals amphibole and pyroxene and used potassium-argon dating, 1248 01:31:50,256 --> 01:31:56,594 he got .9 million and 2.8 million. My point is all these dating methods actually give all sorts of different dates. 1249 01:31:56,594 --> 01:32:01,962 In fact, different dating methods on the same rock, we can show, give all sorts of different dates. 1250 01:32:01,962 --> 01:32:04,769 See there's lots of assumptions in regard to radioactive dating. 1251 01:32:04,769 --> 01:32:09,426 Number one, for instance, the amounts of the parent and daughter isotopes at the beginning when the rock formed. 1252 01:32:09,426 --> 01:32:12,695 You have to know them. But you weren't there. See that's historical science. 1253 01:32:12,695 --> 01:32:15,716 Assumption 2: that all daughter atoms measured today 1254 01:32:15,716 --> 01:32:20,376 must have only been derived in situ radioactive decay of parent atoms. 1255 01:32:20,376 --> 01:32:21,643 In other words it's a closed system. 1256 01:32:21,643 --> 01:32:25,533 But you don't know that. And there's a lot of evidence that that's not so. 1257 01:32:25,533 --> 01:32:28,807 Assumption Number 3: that the decay rates have remained a constant. 1258 01:32:28,807 --> 01:32:30,713 Now they're just some of them. There's others as well. 1259 01:32:30,713 --> 01:32:33,616 The point is there's lots of assumptions in regard to the dating methods. 1260 01:32:33,616 --> 01:32:38,990 So there's no dating method you can use that you can absolutely age date a rock. 1261 01:32:38,990 --> 01:32:42,142 There's all sorts of differences out there. 1262 01:32:42,142 --> 01:32:45,902 And I do want to address the bit you brought up about Christians believing in millions of years. 1263 01:32:45,902 --> 01:32:48,340 Yeah, there's a lot of Christians out there that believe in millions of years, 1264 01:32:48,340 --> 01:32:52,100 but I'd say they have a problem. I'm not saying they're not Christians, but 1265 01:32:52,100 --> 01:32:55,768 because salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ, not the age of the earth. 1266 01:32:55,768 --> 01:32:58,639 But there's an inconsistency with what the Bible teaches. 1267 01:32:58,639 --> 01:33:04,043 If you believe in millions of years, you've got death and bloodshed, suffering, and disease 1268 01:33:04,043 --> 01:33:07,934 over millions of years leading to man, because that's what you see in the fossil record. 1269 01:33:07,934 --> 01:33:11,263 The Bible makes it very clear death is a result of man's sin. 1270 01:33:11,263 --> 01:33:15,999 In fact, the first death was in the garden when God killed an animal, clothed Adam and Eve, 1271 01:33:15,999 --> 01:33:20,366 first blood sacrifice pointing towards what would happen with Jesus Christ. 1272 01:33:20,366 --> 01:33:23,772 He would be the one who would die once and for all. 1273 01:33:23,772 --> 01:33:27,246 Now if you believe in millions of years as a Christian, in the fossil record 1274 01:33:27,246 --> 01:33:30,863 there's evidence of animals eating each other, Bible says originally all the animals 1275 01:33:30,863 --> 01:33:35,366 and man were vegetarian. We weren't told we could eat meat until after the flood. 1276 01:33:35,366 --> 01:33:40,067 There's diseases represented in the fossil record like brain tumors, but the Bible 1277 01:33:40,067 --> 01:33:42,300 says when God made everything it was very good. 1278 01:33:42,300 --> 01:33:44,234 God doesn't call brain tumors very good. 1279 01:33:44,234 --> 01:33:48,143 There's fossilized thorns in the fossil record said to be hundreds of millions of years old, 1280 01:33:48,143 --> 01:33:50,972 the Bible says thorns came after the curse. 1281 01:33:50,972 --> 01:33:53,763 So these two things can't be true at the same time. 1282 01:33:53,763 --> 01:33:57,231 You know what? There's hundreds of dating methods out there, hundreds of them. 1283 01:33:57,231 --> 01:34:03,695 Actually, 90% of them contradict billions of years. And the point is, all such dating methods are fallible. 1284 01:34:03,695 --> 01:34:08,177 And I claim, there's only one infallible dating method, it's a witness who was there, 1285 01:34:08,177 --> 01:34:11,533 who knows everything, who told us. And that's from the word of God. 1286 01:34:11,533 --> 01:34:16,500 And that's why I would say that the earth is only 6,000 years. And, as Dr. Faulkner said, 1287 01:34:16,500 --> 01:34:20,429 there's nothing in astronomy, and certainly Dr. Snelling would say, there's nothing in geology 1288 01:34:20,429 --> 01:34:25,264 to contradict a belief in a young age for the earth and the universe. 1289 01:34:25,873 --> 01:34:29,065 Moderator: Thank you Mr. Ham. Mr. Nye, your five-minute rebuttal please. 1290 01:34:29,366 --> 01:34:32,200 Mr. Nye: Thank you very much. Let me start with the beginning. 1291 01:34:32,663 --> 01:34:37,233 If you find 45 million year old rock on top of 45 thousand year old trees, 1292 01:34:37,233 --> 01:34:42,467 maybe the rock slid on top. Maybe that's it. That seems much more reasonable explanation 1293 01:34:42,467 --> 01:34:49,332 than, "It's impossible." Then as far as dating goes, actually the methods are 1294 01:34:49,332 --> 01:34:55,033 very reliable. One of the mysteries, or interesting things that people in my business, 1295 01:34:55,033 --> 01:35:00,363 especially at the Planetary Society, are interested in is why all the asteroids seem to be 1296 01:35:00,363 --> 01:35:06,900 so close to the same date in age. It's 4.5, 4.6 billion years. 1297 01:35:06,900 --> 01:35:11,367 It's a remarkable thing. People at first expected a little more of a spread. 1298 01:35:11,367 --> 01:35:19,618 So, I understand that you take the Bible as written in English, translated countless, 1299 01:35:19,618 --> 01:35:26,100 not countless, but many, many times over the last three millenia as to be a more accurate, 1300 01:35:26,100 --> 01:35:29,033 more reasonable assessment of the natural laws we see around us 1301 01:35:29,033 --> 01:35:37,732 than what I and everybody in here can observe. That to me is unsettling, troubling. 1302 01:35:37,732 --> 01:35:47,535 And then about the disease thing, are the fish sinners? Have they done something wrong to get diseases? 1303 01:35:47,535 --> 01:35:55,133 That's sort of an extraordinary claim that takes me just a little past what I'm comfortable with. 1304 01:35:55,133 --> 01:36:00,863 And then, as far as you can't observe the past, I have to stop you right there. 1305 01:36:00,863 --> 01:36:02,702 That's what we do in astronomy. 1306 01:36:02,702 --> 01:36:06,131 All we can do in astronomy is look at the past. 1307 01:36:06,131 --> 01:36:13,600 By the way, you're looking at the past right now. Because the speed of light bounces off of me 1308 01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:18,764 and then gets to your eyes. And I'm delighted to see that the people in the back of the room 1309 01:36:18,764 --> 01:36:23,532 appear just that much younger than the people in the front. 1310 01:36:23,532 --> 01:36:32,099 So this idea that you can separate the natural laws of the past from the natural laws that we have now, 1311 01:36:32,099 --> 01:36:37,732 I think is at the heart of our disagreement. I don't see how we're ever going to agree with that 1312 01:36:37,732 --> 01:36:44,167 if you insist that natural laws have changed. It's, for lack of a better word, it's magical. 1313 01:36:45,063 --> 01:36:50,500 And I have appreciated magic since I was a kid, but it's not really what we want 1314 01:36:50,500 --> 01:37:02,266 in conventional, mainstream science. So, your assertion that all the animals were vegetarians 1315 01:37:03,100 --> 01:37:10,568 before they got on the ark. That's really remarkable. I have not spent a lot of time with lions, 1316 01:37:10,568 --> 01:37:14,733 but I can tell they've got teeth that really aren't set up for broccoli. 1317 01:37:14,733 --> 01:37:22,194 That these animals were vegetarians til this flood is something that I would ask you 1318 01:37:22,194 --> 01:37:28,961 to provide a little more proof for. I give you the lion's teeth, you give me verses 1319 01:37:28,961 --> 01:37:34,499 as translated into English over, what, 30 centuries? 1320 01:37:34,499 --> 01:37:39,722 So, that's not enough evidence for me. If you've ever played telephone, I did, I remember very well 1321 01:37:39,722 --> 01:37:43,163 in kindergarten where you have a secret and you whisper it to the next person, to the next person, 1322 01:37:43,163 --> 01:37:51,300 to the next person. Things often go wrong. So it's very reasonable to me that instead of lions being vegetarians on the ark, 1323 01:37:51,300 --> 01:38:01,797 lions are lions, and the information that you used to create your world view is not consistent with 1324 01:38:01,797 --> 01:38:11,399 what I, as a reasonable man, would expect. So, I want everybody to consider the implications of this. 1325 01:38:12,441 --> 01:38:23,667 If we accept Mr. Ham's point of view, that the Bible as translated into American English, 1326 01:38:23,667 --> 01:38:32,200 serves as a science text, and that he and his followers will interpret that for you, 1327 01:38:32,200 --> 01:38:39,635 Just, I want you to consider what that means. It means that Mr. Ham's word or his interpretation 1328 01:38:39,635 --> 01:38:46,407 of these other words, is somehow to be more respected than what you can observe in nature. 1329 01:38:46,407 --> 01:38:50,600 Than what you can find literally in your backyard, in Kentucky. 1330 01:38:50,937 --> 01:38:58,497 It's a troubling and unsettling point of view, and it's one I very much like you to address when you come back. 1331 01:38:59,002 --> 01:39:04,262 As far as the five races that you mentioned, it's kind of the same thing. 1332 01:39:04,262 --> 01:39:08,174 The five races were claimed by people who were of European descent, 1333 01:39:08,174 --> 01:39:12,301 and said, "Hey, we're the best! Check us out!" And that turns out to be, 1334 01:39:12,301 --> 01:39:17,130 if you've ever traveled anywhere or done anything, not to be that way. 1335 01:39:17,130 --> 01:39:20,297 People are much more alike than they are different. 1336 01:39:20,297 --> 01:39:26,067 So, are we supposed to take your word for English words translated over the last 30 centuries, 1337 01:39:26,067 --> 01:39:29,897 instead of what we can observe in the universe around us? 1338 01:39:30,999 --> 01:39:33,735 Moderator: Very good. And Mr. Ham, would you like to offer your five minute counter rebuttal? 1339 01:39:37,968 --> 01:39:41,534 Ken Ham: Uh, first of all, Bill, just so, I just don't want a misunderstanding here, 1340 01:39:41,534 --> 01:39:47,767 and that is, the 45,000-year-old wood, or supposedly 45,000 was inside the basalt. 1341 01:39:47,767 --> 01:39:54,300 Um, so, it was encased in the basalt. Uh, and that's why I was making that particular point. 1342 01:39:54,300 --> 01:39:59,367 And I would also say that natural law hasn't changed. As I talked about, you know, 1343 01:39:59,367 --> 01:40:03,728 I said we had the laws of logic, the uniformity of nature. And that only makes sense 1344 01:40:03,728 --> 01:40:07,668 within a biblical worldview anyway, of a creator God, who set up those laws, 1345 01:40:07,668 --> 01:40:11,200 and that's why we can do good experimental science, because we assume those laws are true, 1346 01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:20,764 and they'll be true tomorrow. I do want to say this. that you said a few times, you know, 1347 01:40:20,764 --> 01:40:26,034 Ken Ham's view or model. It's not just Ken Ham's model. We have a number of PhD scientists 1348 01:40:26,034 --> 01:40:31,433 on our own staff. I quoted, had video quotes, from some scientists. 1349 01:40:31,433 --> 01:40:40,301 It's Dr. Damadian's model. It's Dr. Fabich's model. It's Dr. Faulkner's model. It's Dr. Snelling's model. 1350 01:40:40,301 --> 01:40:44,658 It's Dr. Purdom's model. And so it goes on, in other words. And you go on our website, 1351 01:40:44,658 --> 01:40:50,861 and there are lots of creation scientists who agree with exactly what we're saying concerning 1352 01:40:50,861 --> 01:40:57,201 the Bible's account of creation. So it's not just "my model" in that sense. 1353 01:40:57,201 --> 01:41:05,168 There is so much that I can say, but, as I listen to you, I believe you're confusing terms 1354 01:41:05,168 --> 01:41:11,134 in regard to species and kinds. Because we're not saying that God created all those species. 1355 01:41:11,134 --> 01:41:16,100 We're saying God created kinds. And we're not saying species got on the ark, we're saying kinds. 1356 01:41:16,100 --> 01:41:19,799 In fact, we've had researchers working on what is a kind. For instance, there's a number of papers, 1357 01:41:19,799 --> 01:41:24,066 published on our website, where, for instance, they look at dogs. And they say, well, this one 1358 01:41:24,066 --> 01:41:28,600 breeds with this one, with this one, with this one. And you can look at all the papers around the world 1359 01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:31,835 and you can connect them all together and say that obviously represents one kind. 1360 01:41:31,835 --> 01:41:36,433 In fact, as they have been doing that research, they have predicted probably less than actually a thousand 1361 01:41:36,433 --> 01:41:41,966 kinds were on Noah's ark, which means just over 2,000 animals. And the average size of a land animal 1362 01:41:41,966 --> 01:41:48,367 is not that big so, you know, there was plenty of room on the ark. I also believe that 1363 01:41:48,367 --> 01:41:52,932 a lot of what you were saying was really illustrating my point. Uh, you were talking about tree rings 1364 01:41:52,932 --> 01:41:58,333 and ice layers and, just talking about kangaroos getting to Australia, and all sorts of things like that. 1365 01:41:58,333 --> 01:42:03,497 But see, we're talking about the past, when we weren't there. We didn't see those tree rings actually forming. 1366 01:42:03,497 --> 01:42:10,156 We didn't see those layers being laid down. You know, in 1942, for instance, there were some planes 1367 01:42:10,156 --> 01:42:15,033 that landed on the ice in Greenland. They found them, what, 46 years later, I think it was, 1368 01:42:15,033 --> 01:42:20,233 three miles away from the original location with 250 feet of ice buried on top of them. 1369 01:42:20,233 --> 01:42:24,496 So, ice can build up catastrophically. If you assume one layer a year, or something like that, 1370 01:42:24,496 --> 01:42:30,000 it's like the dating methods. You are assuming things in regard to the past that aren't necessarily true. 1371 01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:39,100 In regard to lions and teeth, bears, most bears have teeth very much like a lion or tiger, and yet, most bears 1372 01:42:39,100 --> 01:42:42,967 are primarily vegetarian. The panda, if you look at its teeth, you'd say, maybe it should be a 1373 01:42:42,967 --> 01:42:48,468 savage carnivore. It eats mainly bamboo. The little fruit bat in Australia has really sharp teeth, 1374 01:42:48,468 --> 01:42:51,900 looks like a savage little creature, and it rips into fruit. 1375 01:42:51,900 --> 01:42:56,600 Uh, so, just cause an animal has sharp teeth doesn't mean it's a meat eater. It means it has sharp teeth. 1376 01:42:56,600 --> 01:43:03,333 Uh, so again, it really comes down to our interpretation of these things. 1377 01:43:03,333 --> 01:43:07,443 I think too, in regard to the Missoula, uh, example that you gave, you know, 1378 01:43:07,443 --> 01:43:10,505 creationists do believe there's been post-flood catastrophism. 1379 01:43:10,505 --> 01:43:17,772 Noah's flood, certainly, was a catastrophic event. But then there's been post-flood catastrophism since that time as well. 1380 01:43:17,772 --> 01:43:22,134 And again, in regard to historical science, why would you say Noah was unskilled? 1381 01:43:22,134 --> 01:43:28,833 I mean, I didn't meet Noah, and neither did you. And you know, really, it's an evolutionary view of origins I believe 1382 01:43:28,833 --> 01:43:32,200 cause you're thinking in terms people before us aren't as good as us. 1383 01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:36,867 Hey, there are civilizations that existed in the past, and we look at their technology, 1384 01:43:36,867 --> 01:43:41,400 and we can't even understand today how they did some of the things that they did. 1385 01:43:41,400 --> 01:43:44,936 Who says Noah couldn't build a big boat? By the way, the Chinese and the Egyptians built boats. 1386 01:43:44,936 --> 01:43:49,134 In fact, some of our research indicates that some of the wooden boats that were built 1387 01:43:49,134 --> 01:43:52,739 had three layers interlocking so they wouldn't twist like that and leak, which is why, 1388 01:43:52,739 --> 01:43:58,866 here at the Creation Museum, we have an exhibit on the ark, where we've rebuilt 1% of the ark to scale 1389 01:43:58,866 --> 01:44:03,868 and shown three interlocking layers like that. And one last thing, concerning the speed of light, 1390 01:44:03,868 --> 01:44:09,667 and that is, I'm sure you're aware of the horizon problem. And that is, from a Big Bang perspective, 1391 01:44:09,667 --> 01:44:15,532 even the secularists have a problem of getting light and radiation out to the universe 1392 01:44:15,532 --> 01:44:20,700 to be able to exchange with the rest of the universe, to get that even microwave background radiation. 1393 01:44:20,700 --> 01:44:27,133 On their model, 15 billion years or so, they can only get it about halfway. 1394 01:44:27,133 --> 01:44:32,134 And that's why they have inflation theories, which means, everyone has a problem concerning the light issue. 1395 01:44:32,134 --> 01:44:36,000 There's things people don't understand. And we have some models on our website 1396 01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:40,463 by some of our scientists to help explain those sorts of things. 1397 01:44:40,463 --> 01:44:42,967 Moderator: Mr. Nye, your counter rebuttal. 1398 01:44:42,967 --> 01:44:46,100 Bill Nye: Thank you Mr. Ham, but I'm completely unsatisfied. 1399 01:44:46,100 --> 01:44:53,600 You did not, in my view, address this fundamental question. 680,000 years of snow ice layers 1400 01:44:53,600 --> 01:44:59,748 which require winter summer cycle. Let's say you have 2,000 kinds instead of seven. 1401 01:44:59,748 --> 01:45:05,734 That makes the problem even more extraordinary, multiplying eleven by what's, three and a half? 1402 01:45:05,734 --> 01:45:14,265 We get to 35... 40 species every day that we don't see, they're not extant. 1403 01:45:14,265 --> 01:45:20,166 In fact, you probably know we're losing species due to mostly human activity and the loss of habitat. 1404 01:45:20,366 --> 01:45:25,263 Then, as far as Noah being an extraordinary shipwright, I'm very skeptical. 1405 01:45:25,697 --> 01:45:33,165 The shipwrights, my ancestors, the Nye family in New England, took, spent their whole life learning to make ships. 1406 01:45:33,632 --> 01:45:38,399 I mean, it's very reasonable, perhaps, to you that Noah had superpowers 1407 01:45:38,604 --> 01:45:45,667 and was able to build this extraordinary craft with seven family members, but to me, it's just not reasonable. 1408 01:45:45,867 --> 01:45:53,100 Then, uh, by the way, the fundamental thing we disagree on, Mr. Ham, 1409 01:45:53,304 --> 01:46:00,431 is this nature of what you can prove to yourself. This is to say, when people make assumptions 1410 01:46:01,633 --> 01:46:06,631 based on radiometric data, when they make assumptions about the expanding universe, 1411 01:46:06,765 --> 01:46:12,762 when they make assumptions about the rate at which genes change in populations of bacteria 1412 01:46:12,963 --> 01:46:20,100 in laboratory growth media, they are making assumptions based on previous experience. 1413 01:46:20,288 --> 01:46:25,863 They're not coming out of whole cloth. So, next time you have a chance to speak, 1414 01:46:25,997 --> 01:46:34,532 I encourage you to explain to us why... why we should accept your word for it that natural law changed 1415 01:46:34,928 --> 01:46:43,467 just 4,000 years ago, completely. And there's no record of it. You know, there are pyramids that are older than that. 1416 01:46:43,866 --> 01:46:51,231 There are human populations that are far older than that, with traditions that go back farther that that. 1417 01:46:51,563 --> 01:46:56,264 And it's just not reasonable to me that everything changed 4,000 years ago. 1418 01:46:56,432 --> 01:47:01,962 By everything, I mean the species, the surface of the Earth, the stars in the sky, 1419 01:47:02,464 --> 01:47:07,067 and the relationship of all the other living things on Earth to humans. 1420 01:47:07,263 --> 01:47:10,300 It's just not reasonable to me that everything changed like that. (Snaps fingers.) 1421 01:47:10,457 --> 01:47:15,598 And another thing I would very much appreciate you addressing: 1422 01:47:15,699 --> 01:47:21,233 there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious. And I respect that. 1423 01:47:22,167 --> 01:47:27,698 People get tremendous community and comfort and nurture and support from their religious fellows 1424 01:47:27,900 --> 01:47:31,633 in their communities, in their faiths, in their churches. 1425 01:47:32,465 --> 01:47:34,965 And yet, they don't accept your point of view. 1426 01:47:35,832 --> 01:47:42,262 There are Christians who don't accept that the Earth could somehow be this extraordinary young age 1427 01:47:42,732 --> 01:47:48,565 because of all the evidence around them. And so, what is to become of them, in your view? 1428 01:47:48,930 --> 01:47:56,232 And by the way, this thing started, as I understand it, Ken Ham's creation model is based on the Old Testament. 1429 01:47:56,832 --> 01:48:01,528 So when you bring in, I'm not a theologian, when you bring in the New Testament, 1430 01:48:01,697 --> 01:48:08,597 isn't that little, uh, out of the box? I'm looking for explanations of the creation of the world 1431 01:48:08,999 --> 01:48:17,800 as we know it, uh, based on what I'm gonna call science. Not historical science, not observational science. 1432 01:48:18,296 --> 01:48:22,966 Science: things that each of us can do akin to what we do, we're trying to outguess the characters 1433 01:48:23,363 --> 01:48:30,400 on murder mystery shows, on crime scene investigation, especially. 1434 01:48:30,933 --> 01:48:35,200 What is to become of all those people, who don't see it your way? 1435 01:48:35,702 --> 01:48:41,697 For us, in the scientific community, I remind you, that when we find an idea that's not tenable, 1436 01:48:42,032 --> 01:48:50,297 that doesn't work, that doesn't fly, doesn't hold water, whatever idiom you'd like to embrace, we throw it away. 1437 01:48:50,498 --> 01:48:54,896 We are delighted. That's why I say, if you can find a fossil that has swum between the layers, bring it on! 1438 01:48:55,364 --> 01:49:00,364 You would change the world. If you could show that somehow the microwave background radiation 1439 01:49:00,709 --> 01:49:06,200 is not a result of the Big Bang, come on! Write your paper. Tear it up! 1440 01:49:06,661 --> 01:49:14,163 So, your view, that we're supposed to take your word for this book written centuries ago, 1441 01:49:14,468 --> 01:49:20,798 translated into American English, is somehow more important that what I can see with my own eyes, 1442 01:49:21,030 --> 01:49:27,464 is an extraordinary claim. And, for those watching online, especially, I want to remind you 1443 01:49:27,600 --> 01:49:31,252 that we need scientists, and especially engineers for the future. 1444 01:49:31,900 --> 01:49:36,733 Engineers use science to solve problems and make things. We need these people 1445 01:49:36,897 --> 01:49:40,632 so that the United States can continue to innovate and continue to be a world leader. 1446 01:49:41,267 --> 01:49:45,534 We need innovation, and that needs science education. Thank you. 1447 01:49:46,100 --> 01:49:51,265 Moderator: All right. Thank you both. Uh, now we're going to get to the things moving a little bit faster. 1448 01:49:51,432 --> 01:49:55,263 I think they might be quite interesting here. It's 40 to 45 minutes, maybe a little bit more, actually. 1449 01:49:55,531 --> 01:50:00,330 We'll have a little more. For questions and answers submitted by our audience here in the Creation Museum. 1450 01:50:00,500 --> 01:50:03,333 Beforehand, we handed out these cards to everyone. I shuffled them here in the back, 1451 01:50:03,465 --> 01:50:07,732 and in fact, I dropped a lot of them, and then I scooped them up again. 1452 01:50:07,967 --> 01:50:13,864 And if you saw me sorting through them here, it was to get a pile for Mr. Nye and a pile for Mr. Ham, 1453 01:50:14,200 --> 01:50:18,866 so that we can alternate reasonably between them. Other than that, the only reason I will skip over one 1454 01:50:19,066 --> 01:50:23,631 is if I can't read it, or if it's a question that I don't know how to read because it doesn't seem to make any sense, 1455 01:50:23,833 --> 01:50:27,333 which sometimes happens just because of the way people write. (Audience laughs.) 1456 01:50:27,497 --> 01:50:31,493 What's going to happen is we're gonna go back and forth between Mr. Nye and Mr. Ham. 1457 01:50:31,704 --> 01:50:36,600 Each debater will have two minutes to answer the question addressed to him, 1458 01:50:36,729 --> 01:50:41,895 and then the other will have one minute to also answer the question, even though it was addressed to the other man. 1459 01:50:41,981 --> 01:50:45,933 And I did pull one card aside here, because I noticed it was to both men. 1460 01:50:45,975 --> 01:50:49,567 So we may be able to get to that at some point. Mr. Ham, you've been up first, if you'll hop up first this time. 1461 01:50:49,634 --> 01:50:52,733 And Mr. Nye, you can stand by for your responses. Two minutes. 1462 01:50:52,834 --> 01:51:00,297 How does creationism account for the celestial bodies: planets, stars, moons moving further and further apart? 1463 01:51:00,399 --> 01:51:03,632 And what function does that serve in the grand design? 1464 01:51:04,265 --> 01:51:09,966 Ken Ham: Well, when it comes to looking at the universe, of course, we believe, that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 1465 01:51:10,164 --> 01:51:15,235 And I believe our creationist astronomers would say, "Yeah, you can observe the universe expanding." 1466 01:51:15,700 --> 01:51:20,430 Why God is doing that? In fact, in Bible it even says He stretches out the heavens. 1467 01:51:20,996 --> 01:51:24,630 And seems to indicate that there is an expansion of the universe. 1468 01:51:25,030 --> 01:51:30,801 And so, we would say, yeah, you can observe that. That fits with what we call observational science. 1469 01:51:30,965 --> 01:51:34,833 Exactly why God did it that way? I can't answer that question, of course, 1470 01:51:35,097 --> 01:51:40,143 because, you know, the Bible says that God made the heavens for his glory. 1471 01:51:40,397 --> 01:51:47,302 And that's why he made the stars that we see out there. And it's to tell us how great He is and how big He is. 1472 01:51:47,467 --> 01:51:53,499 And in fact, I think that's the thing about the universe. The universe is so large, so big out there. 1473 01:51:53,573 --> 01:51:58,832 One of our planetarium programs looks at this. We go in and show you how large the universe is. 1474 01:51:58,965 --> 01:52:05,365 And I think it shows us how great God is, how big He is, that He's an all-powerful God, 1475 01:52:05,365 --> 01:52:11,931 He's an infinite God, an infinite, all-knowing God who created the universe to show us his power. 1476 01:52:12,021 --> 01:52:16,031 I mean, can you imagine that, and the thing that's really remarkable in the Bible. 1477 01:52:16,102 --> 01:52:21,332 For instance, it says on the fourth day of creation, and oh, he made the stars also. 1478 01:52:21,427 --> 01:52:26,864 It's almost like, "Oh, by the way, I made the stars." Um, and just to show us He's an all-powerful God. 1479 01:52:26,938 --> 01:52:31,398 He's an infinite God. So, "I made the stars." And he made them to show us how great He is. 1480 01:52:31,500 --> 01:52:35,566 And He is. He's an infinite creator God. And the more that you understand what that means, 1481 01:52:35,671 --> 01:52:41,304 that God is all-powerful, infinite, you stand back in awe. You realize how small we are. 1482 01:52:41,371 --> 01:52:48,200 You realize, wow, that God would consider this planet, is so significant that he created human beings here, 1483 01:52:48,238 --> 01:52:52,899 knowing they would sin, and yet stepped into history to die for us and be raised from the dead. 1484 01:52:53,023 --> 01:52:57,400 Our verse, the free gift of salvation. Wow! What a God! 1485 01:52:57,464 --> 01:53:00,699 And that's what I would say when I see the universe as it is. 1486 01:53:00,768 --> 01:53:04,028 Moderator: Mr. Nye, one minute. And your response? 1487 01:53:04,100 --> 01:53:10,865 Bill Nye: There's a question that troubles us all from the time when we are absolutely youngest and first able to think. 1488 01:53:10,865 --> 01:53:15,033 And that is, where did we come from? Where did I come from? 1489 01:53:15,033 --> 01:53:21,098 And this question is so compelling that we've invented the science of astronomy. 1490 01:53:21,180 --> 01:53:24,598 We've invented life science. We've invented physics. 1491 01:53:24,731 --> 01:53:31,066 We've discovered these natural laws so that we can learn more about our origin and where we came from. 1492 01:53:31,182 --> 01:53:38,267 To you, when it says, He invented the stars also, that's satisfying. You're done. 1493 01:53:38,631 --> 01:53:43,931 Oh, good. Okay. To me, when I look at the night sky, I want to know what's out there. 1494 01:53:43,997 --> 01:53:49,598 I'm driven. I want to know if what's out there is any part of me, and indeed, it is. 1495 01:53:49,697 --> 01:53:55,566 The "oh, by the way" I find compelling you are satisfied. 1496 01:53:55,600 --> 01:54:00,401 And the big thing I want from you, Mr. Ham, is can you come up with something that you can predict? 1497 01:54:00,451 --> 01:54:04,863 Do you have a creation model that predicts something that will happen in nature? 1498 01:54:04,863 --> 01:54:08,063 Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Nye, the next question is for you. 1499 01:54:08,143 --> 01:54:11,566 How did the atoms that created the Big Bang get there? 1500 01:54:11,601 --> 01:54:20,232 Bill Nye: This is the great mystery. You've hit the nail on the head. No, this is so, where did, what was before the Big Bang? 1501 01:54:20,335 --> 01:54:25,767 This is what drives us. This is what we want to know. Let's keep looking. Let's keep searching. 1502 01:54:25,767 --> 01:54:31,699 Uh, when I was young, it was presumed that the universe was slowing down. 1503 01:54:31,699 --> 01:54:37,431 It's a big bang, phrooo! Except it's in outer space, there's no air, so (quietly) it goes out like that. 1504 01:54:37,431 --> 01:54:47,730 And so people presumed that it would slow down, that the universe, the gravity, especially, 1505 01:54:47,966 --> 01:54:49,062 would hold everything together and maybe it's going to come back and explode again. 1506 01:54:49,104 --> 01:54:52,400 And people went out. And the mathematical expression is: is the universe flat? 1507 01:54:52,449 --> 01:54:58,431 It's a mathematical expression. Will the universe slow down, slow down, slow down asymptotically without ever stopping? 1508 01:54:58,431 --> 01:55:06,465 Well, in 2004, Saul Perlmutter and his colleagues went looking for the rate at which the universe was slowing down. 1509 01:55:06,564 --> 01:55:11,965 Let's go out and measure it. And we're doing it with this extraordinary system of telescopes around the world, 1510 01:55:12,062 --> 01:55:19,235 looking at the night sky, looking for supernovae. These are a standard brightness that you can infer distances with. 1511 01:55:19,313 --> 01:55:25,400 And the universe isn't slowing down. It's accelerating! The universe is accelerating in its expansion. 1512 01:55:25,400 --> 01:55:31,166 And do you know why? Nobody knows why! (audience laughs) Nobody knows why. 1513 01:55:31,214 --> 01:55:37,962 And you'll hear the expression nowadays, dark energy, dark matter, which are mathematical ideas that seem 1514 01:55:37,962 --> 01:55:45,235 to reckon well with what seems to be the gravitational attraction of clusters of stars, galaxies, and their expansion. 1515 01:55:45,335 --> 01:55:52,196 And then, isn't it reasonable that whatever's out there, causing the universe to expand, is here also? 1516 01:55:52,281 --> 01:55:55,030 And we just haven't figured out how to detect it. 1517 01:55:55,102 --> 01:56:01,431 My friends, suppose a science student from the commonwealth of Kentucky pursues a career in science 1518 01:56:01,466 --> 01:56:10,000 and finds out the answer to that deep question? Where did we come from? What was before the Big Bang? 1519 01:56:10,000 --> 01:56:14,096 To us, this is wonderful and charming and compelling. This is what makes us get up and go to work everyday, 1520 01:56:14,147 --> 01:56:17,029 is to try to solve the mysteries of the universe. 1521 01:56:17,074 --> 01:56:18,933 Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham, a response? 1522 01:56:19,013 --> 01:56:22,463 Ken Ham: Uh, Bill, I just want to let you know that there actually is 1523 01:56:22,526 --> 01:56:27,831 a book out there that actually tells us where matter came from. (Audience laughs.) 1524 01:56:27,831 --> 01:56:33,531 And, the very first sentence in that book says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 1525 01:56:33,649 --> 01:56:39,199 And really, that's the only thing that makes sense. That's the only thing that makes sense of why, not just matter is here, 1526 01:56:39,246 --> 01:56:49,002 where it came from, but why matter, when you look at it, we have information and language systems that build life. 1527 01:56:49,033 --> 01:56:53,833 We're not just matter. And where did that come from? Because matter can never produce information. 1528 01:56:53,901 --> 01:56:57,761 Matter can never produce a language system. Languages only come from intelligence. 1529 01:56:57,842 --> 01:57:03,768 Information only comes from information. The Bible tells us that the things we see, like in the book of Hebrews, 1530 01:57:03,858 --> 01:57:09,735 are made from things that are unseen. An infinite creator God who created the universe, 1531 01:57:09,813 --> 01:57:14,596 created matter, the energy, space, mass, time universe, and created the information for life. 1532 01:57:14,642 --> 01:57:16,933 It's the only thing that makes logical sense. 1533 01:57:16,984 --> 01:57:21,132 Moderator: Alright, Mr. Ham, a new question here. The overwhelming majority of people in the 1534 01:57:22,533 --> 01:57:25,668 scientific community have presented valid, physical evidence, such as carbon dating and fossils, 1535 01:57:25,737 --> 01:57:32,965 to support evolutionary theory. What evidence besides the literal word of the Bible supports creationism? 1536 01:57:33,050 --> 01:57:37,199 Ken Ham: Well, first of all, you know, I often hear people talking about "the majority". 1537 01:57:37,199 --> 01:57:41,967 I would agree that the majority of scientists would believe 1538 01:57:41,967 --> 01:57:45,233 in millions of years and the majority would believe in evolution, 1539 01:57:45,285 --> 01:57:48,533 but there's a large group out there that certainly don't. 1540 01:57:48,666 --> 01:57:56,934 But, first thing I want to say is, it's not the majority that's the judge of truth. 1541 01:57:57,003 --> 01:58:01,032 There have been many times in the past when the majority have got it wrong. 1542 01:58:01,126 --> 01:58:04,534 The majority of doctors in England once thought after you cut up bodies, 1543 01:58:04,597 --> 01:58:06,033 you could go and deliver babies and wondered why 1544 01:58:06,085 --> 01:58:08,063 the death rate was high in hospitals, 1545 01:58:08,133 --> 01:58:13,300 till they found out about diseases caused by bacteria and so on. 1546 01:58:13,362 --> 01:58:17,663 The majority once thought the appendix was a leftover organ 1547 01:58:17,731 --> 01:58:20,531 from evolutionary ancestry, so, you know, when it's okay, 1548 01:58:20,531 --> 01:58:23,731 rip it out. When it's diseased, rip it out. Rip it out anyway. 1549 01:58:23,781 --> 01:58:28,268 But these days we know that it's for the immune system 1550 01:58:28,355 --> 01:58:29,733 and it's very, very important. 1551 01:58:29,733 --> 01:58:33,633 So, you know, it's important to understand that just because 1552 01:58:33,710 --> 01:58:36,630 the majority believe something doesn't mean that it's true. 1553 01:58:36,710 --> 01:58:40,162 And then, I'm sorry, I missed the last part of the question there. 1554 01:58:40,199 --> 01:58:43,766 Moderator: What was the--let me make sure I have the right question here-- 1555 01:58:43,814 --> 01:58:47,329 So what evidence besides the literal word of the bible-- 1556 01:58:47,405 --> 01:58:50,872 Ken Ham: Okay, one of the things I was doing was making predictions. 1557 01:58:50,872 --> 01:58:53,166 I made some predictions. There's a whole list of predictions. 1558 01:58:53,166 --> 01:58:56,565 And I was saying, if the Bible's right and we're all descendants 1559 01:58:56,626 --> 01:58:59,661 of Adam and Eve, there's one race. And I went through and talked about that. 1560 01:58:59,712 --> 01:59:02,400 If the Bible's right and God made kinds, I went through 1561 01:59:02,446 --> 01:59:06,501 and talked about that. And, so, really that question comes down 1562 01:59:06,572 --> 01:59:09,499 to the fact that we're again dealing with the fact that there's aspects 1563 01:59:09,533 --> 01:59:12,197 about the past that you can't scientifically prove because 1564 01:59:12,241 --> 01:59:14,700 you weren't there, but observational science in the present. 1565 01:59:14,755 --> 01:59:18,296 Bill and I all have the same observational science. We're here in the present. 1566 01:59:18,340 --> 01:59:21,765 We can see radioactivity, but when it comes to then talking about the past, 1567 01:59:21,765 --> 01:59:24,067 you're not going to be scientifically able to prove that. 1568 01:59:24,067 --> 01:59:28,134 And that's what we need to admit. We can be great scientists in the present, 1569 01:59:28,187 --> 01:59:32,700 as the examples I gave you of Dr. Damadian or Dr. Stuart Burgess 1570 01:59:32,700 --> 01:59:36,230 or Dr. Fabich and we can be investigating the present. 1571 01:59:36,303 --> 01:59:39,165 Understanding the past is a whole different matter. 1572 01:59:39,225 --> 01:59:40,698 Moderator: Mr. Nye, one minute response. 1573 01:59:40,698 --> 01:59:45,700 Thank you, Mr. Ham. I have to disabuse you of a fundamental idea. 1574 01:59:45,792 --> 01:59:51,399 If a scientist, if anybody, makes a discovery that changes 1575 01:59:51,500 --> 01:59:56,399 the way people view natural law, scientists embrace him or her! 1576 01:59:56,494 --> 02:00:00,830 This person's fantastic. Louis Pasteur--you made reference to germs. 1577 02:00:00,923 --> 02:00:06,833 Now, if you find something that changes, that disagrees with common thought, 1578 02:00:06,962 --> 02:00:08,900 that's the greatest thing going in science. 1579 02:00:08,900 --> 02:00:11,999 We look forward to that change. We challenge you-- 1580 02:00:12,072 --> 02:00:14,966 tell us why the universe is accelerating. 1581 02:00:15,047 --> 02:00:18,266 Tell us why these mothers were getting sick. 1582 02:00:18,323 --> 02:00:24,200 And we found an explanation for it. And the idea that the majority 1583 02:00:24,244 --> 02:00:28,274 has sway in science is true only up a point. 1584 02:00:28,324 --> 02:00:30,529 And then, the other thing I just want to point out, what you may 1585 02:00:30,601 --> 02:00:34,334 have missed in evolutionary explanations of life 1586 02:00:34,446 --> 02:00:38,032 is it's the mechanism by which we add complexity. 1587 02:00:38,080 --> 02:00:41,165 The earth is getting energy from the sun all the time. 1588 02:00:41,165 --> 02:00:45,497 And that energy is used to make lifeforms somewhat more complex. 1589 02:00:45,600 --> 02:00:46,327 Moderator: And that's time. 1590 02:00:47,198 --> 02:00:48,166 New question for you, Mr. Nye. 1591 02:00:48,221 --> 02:00:51,231 How did consciousness come from matter? 1592 02:00:51,300 --> 02:00:55,300 Bill Nye: Don't know. This is a great mystery. 1593 02:00:55,426 --> 02:01:02,565 A dear friend of mine is a neurologist. She studies the nature of consciousness. 1594 02:01:02,661 --> 02:01:09,366 Now I will say I used to embrace a joke about dogs. 1595 02:01:09,480 --> 02:01:11,600 I love dogs. I mean, who doesn't? 1596 02:01:11,633 --> 02:01:15,134 And you can say, this guy remarked, 1597 02:01:15,267 --> 02:01:17,605 "I've never seen a dog paralyzed by self-doubt." Actually, I have. 1598 02:01:17,661 --> 02:01:27,534 Furthermore, the thing that we celebrate, there are three sundials 1599 02:01:27,627 --> 02:01:30,466 on the planet Mars that bare an inscription to the future: 1600 02:01:30,540 --> 02:01:34,965 "To those who visit here, we wish you a safe journey and the joy of discovery." 1601 02:01:35,035 --> 02:01:38,300 It's inherently optimistic about the future of humankind, 1602 02:01:38,300 --> 02:01:41,832 that we will one day walk on Mars. But the joy of discovery... 1603 02:01:41,947 --> 02:01:46,433 that's what drives us. The joy of finding out what's going on. 1604 02:01:46,522 --> 02:01:50,034 So we don't know where consciousness comes from. But we want to find out. 1605 02:01:50,110 --> 02:01:54,431 Furthermore, I'll tell you it's deep within us. I claim that I 1606 02:01:54,431 --> 02:01:58,433 have spent time with dogs that have had the joy of discovery! 1607 02:01:58,433 --> 02:02:03,035 It's way inside us! We have one ancestor, as near as we can figure. 1608 02:02:03,082 --> 02:02:08,000 And, by the way, if you can find what we in science call "a second genesis", 1609 02:02:08,124 --> 02:02:11,661 this is to say, "Did life start another way on the earth?" 1610 02:02:11,864 --> 02:02:15,266 There are researchers at Astrobiology Institute, 1611 02:02:15,266 --> 02:02:17,364 researchers supported by NASA, your tax dollars, 1612 02:02:17,484 --> 02:02:18,327 that are looking for answers to that very question. 1613 02:02:18,327 --> 02:02:21,536 Is it possible that life could start another way? 1614 02:02:21,699 --> 02:02:25,908 Is there some sort of life form akin to science fiction 1615 02:02:26,038 --> 02:02:29,603 that's crystal instead of membranous. This would be a fantastic 1616 02:02:29,733 --> 02:02:32,333 discovery that would change the world! 1617 02:02:32,420 --> 02:02:34,967 The nature of consciousness is a mystery. 1618 02:02:35,071 --> 02:02:39,727 I challenge the young people here to investigate that very question. 1619 02:02:39,879 --> 02:02:43,666 And I remind you--taxpayers and voters that might be watching-- 1620 02:02:43,715 --> 02:02:47,000 if we do not embrace the process of science, 1621 02:02:47,051 --> 02:02:50,395 and I mean in the mainstream, we will fall behind economically. 1622 02:02:50,465 --> 02:02:52,366 This is a point I can't say enough. 1623 02:02:52,484 --> 02:02:54,565 Moderator: Mr. Ham, a one minute response. 1624 02:02:54,766 --> 02:02:58,467 Ken Ham: Bill, I do want to say that there is a book out there... (audience laughs) 1625 02:02:58,549 --> 02:03:03,800 that does document where consciousness came from. 1626 02:03:03,846 --> 02:03:09,330 And in that book, the one who created us said that he made man in His image, 1627 02:03:09,367 --> 02:03:12,866 and He breathed into man, and he became a living being. 1628 02:03:12,982 --> 02:03:18,467 And so, the Bible does document that. That's where consciousness came from, 1629 02:03:18,633 --> 02:03:21,633 that God gave it to us. And, you know, the other thing I want to say is, 1630 02:03:21,688 --> 02:03:27,633 I'm sorta of a little, I have a mystery. That is, you talk about the joy of discovery 1631 02:03:27,896 --> 02:03:31,567 but you also say that when you die, it's over, and that's the end of you. 1632 02:03:31,677 --> 02:03:37,266 And if when you die, it's over, and you don't even remember you were here, what's the point of the joy of discovery anyway? 1633 02:03:37,499 --> 02:03:42,766 I mean, in an ultimate sense? I mean, you know, you won't ever know you were ever here, 1634 02:03:42,831 --> 02:03:47,197 and no one who knew you will know they were ever here, ultimately, so what's the point anyway? 1635 02:03:47,271 --> 02:03:52,134 I love the joy of discovery because this is God's creation, 1636 02:03:52,310 --> 02:03:58,333 and I'm finding more out about that to take dominion for man's good and for God's glory. 1637 02:03:58,566 --> 02:04:00,296 Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham, a new question. 1638 02:04:00,367 --> 02:04:06,299 This is a simple question, I suppose, but one that actually is fairly profound for all of us, in our lives. 1639 02:04:06,374 --> 02:04:11,164 What, if anything, would ever change your mind? 1640 02:04:11,256 --> 02:04:18,995 Ken Ham: Hmm. Well, the answer to that question is, 1641 02:04:19,042 --> 02:04:26,465 I'm a Christian, and as a Christian, I can't prove it to you, 1642 02:04:26,465 --> 02:04:32,797 but God has definitely, shown me very clearly 1643 02:04:32,891 --> 02:04:39,367 through His Word, and shown Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. 1644 02:04:39,601 --> 02:04:43,501 The Bible is the Word of God. I admit that that's where I start from. 1645 02:04:43,634 --> 02:04:46,834 I can challenge people that you can go and test that. 1646 02:04:46,975 --> 02:04:51,165 You can make predictions based on that. You can check the prophecies in the Bible. 1647 02:04:51,355 --> 02:04:55,359 You can check the statements in Genesis. You can check that. 1648 02:04:55,413 --> 02:05:00,130 I did a little bit of that tonight. And I can't ultimately prove that to you. 1649 02:05:00,130 --> 02:05:05,331 All I can do is to say to someone, "Look, if the Bible really is what it claims to be, 1650 02:05:05,333 --> 02:05:09,632 if it really is the Word of God, and that's what it claims, then check it out." 1651 02:05:09,632 --> 02:05:13,498 And the Bible says, "If you come to God believing that He is, He'll reveal Himself to you." 1652 02:05:13,498 --> 02:05:17,199 And you will know. As Christians, we can say we know. 1653 02:05:17,242 --> 02:05:23,130 And so, as far as the Word of God is concerned, no, no one's ever going to convince me 1654 02:05:23,172 --> 02:05:29,564 that the Word of God is not true. But I do want to make a distinction here. 1655 02:05:29,564 --> 02:05:33,098 And for Bill's sake. We build models based upon the Bible. 1656 02:05:33,200 --> 02:05:35,099 And those models are always subject to change. 1657 02:05:35,181 --> 02:05:38,066 The fact of Noah's flood is not subject to change. 1658 02:05:38,116 --> 02:05:41,200 The model of how the flood occurred is subject to change 1659 02:05:41,292 --> 02:05:46,067 because we observe in the current world, 1660 02:05:46,233 --> 02:05:49,832 and we're able to come up with different ways this could have happened or that could have happened. 1661 02:05:49,966 --> 02:05:53,900 And that's part of that scientific discovery. That's part of what it's all about. 1662 02:05:54,299 --> 02:06:00,032 So, the bottom line is that as a Christian, I have a foundation. 1663 02:06:00,236 --> 02:06:04,434 That as a Christian, I would ask Bill a question. What would change your mind? 1664 02:06:04,600 --> 02:06:09,072 I mean, you said, even if you came to faith, you'd never give up believing in billions of years. 1665 02:06:09,234 --> 02:06:13,364 I think I quoted you correctly. You said something like that recently. 1666 02:06:13,531 --> 02:06:15,865 So that would be also my question to Bill. 1667 02:06:16,042 --> 02:06:17,866 Moderator: Time. Mr. Nye? 1668 02:06:18,032 --> 02:06:20,365 Bill Nye: We would just need one piece of evidence. 1669 02:06:20,507 --> 02:06:23,766 We would need the fossil that swam from one layer to another. 1670 02:06:23,934 --> 02:06:26,165 We would need evidence that the universe is not expanding. 1671 02:06:26,334 --> 02:06:30,664 We would need evidence that the stars appear to be far away, but in fact, they're not. 1672 02:06:30,808 --> 02:06:34,833 We would need evidence that rock layers can somehow form 1673 02:06:34,977 --> 02:06:37,962 in just 4,000 years instead of the extraordinary amount. 1674 02:06:38,133 --> 02:06:43,565 We would need evidence that somehow you can reset atomic clocks and keep neutrons from becoming protons. 1675 02:06:43,766 --> 02:06:49,799 You bring on any of those things and you would change me immediately. 1676 02:06:49,966 --> 02:06:51,431 The question I have for you though, fundamentally, 1677 02:06:51,598 --> 02:06:55,833 and for everybody watching. Mr. Ham, what can you prove? 1678 02:06:56,465 --> 02:07:00,367 What you have done tonight is spent most of the, all of the time 1679 02:07:00,666 --> 02:07:05,862 coming up with explanations about the past. What can you really predict? 1680 02:07:06,097 --> 02:07:09,938 What can you really prove in a conventional scientific, 1681 02:07:10,103 --> 02:07:15,131 or a conventional, "I have an idea that makes a prediction and it comes out the way I see it?" 1682 02:07:15,566 --> 02:07:18,032 This is very troubling to me. 1683 02:07:18,881 --> 02:07:22,736 Moderator: Mr. Nye, a new question. Outside of radiometric methods, 1684 02:07:22,897 --> 02:07:26,866 what scientific evidence supports your view of the age of the Earth? 1685 02:07:27,466 --> 02:07:31,633 Bill Nye: The age of the earth.. Well, the age of stars. 1686 02:07:32,062 --> 02:07:37,164 The... let's see... radiometric evidence is pretty compelling. 1687 02:07:37,533 --> 02:07:45,969 Also, the deposition rates. It was, it was, Lillel, a geologist, 1688 02:07:46,264 --> 02:07:52,398 who realized, my recollection, he came up with the first use of the term "deep time," 1689 02:07:52,497 --> 02:07:57,197 when people realized that the Earth had to be much, much older. 1690 02:07:57,294 --> 02:08:05,666 In a related story, there was a mystery as to how the Earth could be old enough to allow evolution to have taken place. 1691 02:08:05,801 --> 02:08:09,132 How could the Earth possibly be three billion years old? 1692 02:08:09,242 --> 02:08:12,267 Lord Kelvin did a calculation, if the sun were made of coal, and burning, 1693 02:08:12,328 --> 02:08:15,799 it couldn't be more than 100,000 or so years old. 1694 02:08:15,913 --> 02:08:23,135 But radioactivity was discovered. Radioactivity is why the Earth is still as warm as it is. 1695 02:08:23,206 --> 02:08:28,900 It's why the Earth has been able to sustain its internal heat all these millenia. 1696 02:08:29,047 --> 02:08:34,298 And this discovery, it's something like, this question, without radiometric dating, 1697 02:08:34,298 --> 02:08:35,769 how would you view the age of the Earth, 1698 02:08:35,800 --> 02:08:42,199 to me, it's akin to the expression, "Well, if things were any other way, things would be different." 1699 02:08:42,247 --> 02:08:51,866 This is to say, that's not how the world is. Radiometric dating DOES exist. Neutrons DO become protons. 1700 02:08:52,099 --> 02:08:56,300 And that's our level of understanding today. The universe is accelerating. 1701 02:08:56,460 --> 02:09:02,868 These are all provable facts. That there was a flood 4.000 years ago, is not provable. 1702 02:09:03,033 --> 02:09:09,166 In fact, the evidence for me, at least, as a reasonable man, is overwhelming that it couldn't possibly have happened. 1703 02:09:09,497 --> 02:09:17,598 There's no evidence for it. Furthermore, Mr. Ham, you never quite addressed this issue of the skulls. 1704 02:09:17,966 --> 02:09:27,866 There are many, many steps in what appears to be the creation, or the coming into being of you and me. 1705 02:09:28,535 --> 02:09:33,230 And those steps, are consistent with evolutionary theory. 1706 02:09:33,397 --> 02:09:34,865 Moderator: And that is time. Mr. Ham, your response. 1707 02:09:35,065 --> 02:09:38,331 Ken Ham: By the way, I just want people to understand, too, 1708 02:09:38,466 --> 02:09:40,767 in regard to the age of the Earth being about four and a half billion years, 1709 02:09:40,899 --> 02:09:43,868 no Earth rock was dated to get that date. They dated meteorites, 1710 02:09:44,132 --> 02:09:48,709 and because they assumed meteorites were the same age as the Earth, 1711 02:09:48,901 --> 02:09:51,666 leftover from the formation of the solar system, that's where that comes from. 1712 02:09:51,833 --> 02:09:54,895 People think they dated rocks on the Earth to get the four and a half billion years. That's just not true. 1713 02:09:55,033 --> 02:09:59,529 And the other point that I was making, and I just put this slide back up, 1714 02:09:59,701 --> 02:10:01,599 cause I happened to just have it here. And that is, 1715 02:10:01,799 --> 02:10:06,066 I said at the end of my first rebuttal time, that there are hundreds of physical processes 1716 02:10:06,231 --> 02:10:08,033 that set limits on the age of the Earth. Here's the point. 1717 02:10:08,199 --> 02:10:12,466 Every dating method involves a change with time. And there are hundreds of them. 1718 02:10:12,648 --> 02:10:17,800 And, if you assume what was there to start with, and you assume something about the rate, 1719 02:10:17,972 --> 02:10:22,364 and you know about the rate, you make lots of those assumptions. Every dating method has those assumptions. 1720 02:10:22,524 --> 02:10:26,736 Most of the dating methods, 90% of them, contradict the billions of years. 1721 02:10:26,933 --> 02:10:35,696 There's no absolute age dating method from scientific method because you can't prove scientifically, young or old. 1722 02:10:35,833 --> 02:10:38,233 Moderator: And, here is a new question. 1723 02:10:38,399 --> 02:10:45,467 It starts with you, Mr. Ham. Can you reconcile the change in the rate continents are now drifting, 1724 02:10:45,633 --> 02:10:49,792 versus how quickly they must have traveled at creation, 6,000 years ago? 1725 02:10:49,997 --> 02:10:52,469 Ken Ham: Uh, the rate. Sorry I missed that word. 1726 02:10:52,632 --> 02:10:58,666 Moderator: Can you reconcile the speed at which continents are now drifting, today, to the rate 1727 02:10:58,834 --> 02:11:04,134 they would have had to have travelled 6,000 years ago, to reach where we are now? I think that's the question. 1728 02:11:04,279 --> 02:11:08,766 Ken Ham: Okay, I think I understand the question. Um, actually, this again, 1729 02:11:08,900 --> 02:11:13,501 illustrates exactly what I'm talking about in regard to historical science and observational science. 1730 02:11:13,675 --> 02:11:20,433 We can look at continents today. And we have scientists who have written papers about this on our website. 1731 02:11:20,603 --> 02:11:23,833 I am definitely not an expert in this area and don't claim to be. 1732 02:11:23,987 --> 02:11:29,065 Uh, but there are scientists, even Dr. Andrew Snelling, our Ph.D. geologist, 1733 02:11:29,233 --> 02:11:35,934 has done a lot of research here, too, as well. There are others out there into plate tectonics and continental drift. 1734 02:11:36,133 --> 02:11:41,265 And certainly, we can see movements of plates today. And if you look at those movements, 1735 02:11:41,466 --> 02:11:47,964 and if you assume the way it's moving today, the rate it's moving, that it's always been that way in the past, 1736 02:11:48,134 --> 02:11:53,199 see that's an assumption. That's the problem when it comes to understanding these things. 1737 02:11:53,372 --> 02:11:57,232 You can observe movement, but then to assume that it's always been like that in the past, 1738 02:11:57,373 --> 02:12:03,367 that's historical science. And in fact, we would believe basically in catastrophic plate tectonics, 1739 02:12:03,546 --> 02:12:10,065 that as a result of the flood, at the time of the flood, there was catastrophic breakup of the Earth's surface. 1740 02:12:10,248 --> 02:12:15,264 And what we're seeing now is sort of, if you like, a remnant of that movement. 1741 02:12:15,398 --> 02:12:19,933 And so, we do not deny the movement. We do not deny the plates. 1742 02:12:20,084 --> 02:12:26,701 What we would deny is that you can use what you see today as a basis for just extrapolating into the past. 1743 02:12:26,867 --> 02:12:31,997 It's the same with the flood. You can say layers today only get laid down slowly in places, 1744 02:12:32,199 --> 02:12:35,198 but if there was a global flood, that would have changed all of that. 1745 02:12:35,400 --> 02:12:39,232 Again, it's this emphasis on historical science and observational science. 1746 02:12:39,599 --> 02:12:42,932 And I would encourage people to go to our website at Answers in Genesis 1747 02:12:43,107 --> 02:12:46,465 because we do have a number of papers, in fact, very technical papers. 1748 02:12:46,696 --> 02:12:52,467 Dr. John Baumgardner is one who's written some very extensive work dealing with this very issue. 1749 02:12:52,673 --> 02:12:56,552 On the basis of the Bible, of course, we believe there's one continent to start with, 1750 02:12:56,716 --> 02:13:01,534 cause the waters were gathered here there into one place. So we do believe that the continent has split up. 1751 02:13:01,736 --> 02:13:04,932 But particularly, the flood had a lot to do with that. 1752 02:13:05,099 --> 02:13:07,633 Moderator: And time on that. Mr. Nye, a response. 1753 02:13:07,797 --> 02:13:13,033 Bill Nye: It must have been easier for you to explain this a century ago 1754 02:13:13,267 --> 02:13:17,033 before the existence of tectonic plates was proven. 1755 02:13:17,266 --> 02:13:23,233 If you go into a clock store and there's a bunch of clocks, they're not all gonna say exactly the same thing. 1756 02:13:23,464 --> 02:13:26,399 Do you think that they're all wrong? 1757 02:13:26,600 --> 02:13:30,867 The reason that we acknowledge the rate at which continents are drifting apart, 1758 02:13:31,330 --> 02:13:35,268 one of the reasons, is we see what's called sea floor spreading in the Mid-Atlantic. 1759 02:13:35,433 --> 02:13:39,367 The earth's magnetic field has reversed over the millennia 1760 02:13:39,508 --> 02:13:43,733 and as it does it leaves a signature in the rocks 1761 02:13:43,998 --> 02:13:46,966 as the continental plates drift apart. 1762 02:13:47,198 --> 02:13:52,501 So you can measure how fast the continents were spreading. 1763 02:13:52,661 --> 02:13:54,633 That's how we do it on the outside. 1764 02:13:54,813 --> 02:13:59,200 As I said, I lived in Washington state when Mount St. Helen's exploded. 1765 02:13:59,432 --> 02:14:03,576 That's a result of a continental plate going under another continental plate 1766 02:14:03,758 --> 02:14:07,899 and cracking. And this water-laden rock led to a steam explosion. 1767 02:14:08,033 --> 02:14:10,265 That's how we do it on the outside. 1768 02:14:10,434 --> 02:14:14,265 Moderator: Time. And this is a question for you Mr. Nye. But I guess I could put it to both of you. 1769 02:14:14,404 --> 02:14:16,066 One word answer, please. Favorite color? (laughter) 1770 02:14:16,223 --> 02:14:26,330 Mr. Nye: I will go along with most people and say green. And it's an irony that green plants reflect green light. 1771 02:14:26,499 --> 02:14:29,798 Moderator: Did I not say one word answer? (laughter) I said one word answer. 1772 02:14:29,933 --> 02:14:34,065 Mr. Nye: Most of the light from the sun is green. Yet they reflect it. It's a mystery. 1773 02:14:34,199 --> 02:14:37,234 Mr. Hamm: Well, can I have three words seeing as he had three hundred? 1774 02:14:37,400 --> 02:14:39,467 Moderator: You can have three. 1775 02:14:39,599 --> 02:14:42,233 Mr. Hamm: OK. Observational science. Blue. (laughter) 1776 02:14:42,359 --> 02:14:48,699 Moderator: All right. We're back to you, Mr. Nye. 1777 02:14:48,880 --> 02:14:56,901 How do you balance the theory of evolution with the second law of thermodynamics? And I'd like to add a question here. 1778 02:14:57,079 --> 02:14:59,761 What is the second law of thermodynamics? 1779 02:14:59,900 --> 02:15:04,066 Mr. Nye: Oh, the second law of thermodynamics is fantastic. And I call the words of Eddington who said, 1780 02:15:04,233 --> 02:15:07,439 "If you have a theory that disagrees with Isaac Newton, that's a great theory. 1781 02:15:07,667 --> 02:15:10,934 If you have a theory that disagrees with relativity, wow, you've changed the world. That's great. 1782 02:15:11,133 --> 02:15:17,334 But if your theory disagrees with the second law of thermodynamics, I can offer you no hope. I can't help you." 1783 02:15:17,533 --> 02:15:23,868 The second law of thermodynamics basically is where you lose energy to heat. 1784 02:15:24,064 --> 02:15:30,584 This is why car engines are about 30% efficient. That's it, thermodynamically. That's why you want the hottest explosion 1785 02:15:30,765 --> 02:15:37,530 you can get in the coldest outside environment. You have to have a difference between hot and cold. 1786 02:15:37,666 --> 02:15:44,101 And that difference can be assessed scientifically or mathematically with this word entropy, this disorder of molecules. 1787 02:15:44,567 --> 02:15:50,664 But the fundamental thing that this questioner has missed is the earth is not a closed system. 1788 02:15:50,798 --> 02:15:57,165 So there's energy pouring in here from the sun. If I may, day and night. Ha, Ha. 1789 02:15:57,399 --> 02:16:00,432 'Cause the night, it's pouring in on the other side. 1790 02:16:00,432 --> 02:16:06,399 And so that energy is what drives living things on earth especially for, in our case, plants. 1791 02:16:06,566 --> 02:16:16,431 By the way, if you're here in Kentucky, about a third and maybe a half of the oxygen you breathe is made in the ocean by phytoplankton. 1792 02:16:16,633 --> 02:16:22,131 And they get their energy from the sun. So the second law of thermodynamics is a wonderful thing. 1793 02:16:22,331 --> 02:16:30,998 It has allowed us to have every thing you see in this room because our power generation depends on the 1794 02:16:31,133 --> 02:16:37,197 robust and extremely precise computation of how much energy is in burning fuel, 1795 02:16:37,382 --> 02:16:45,198 whether it's nuclear fuel, or fossil fuel, or some extraordinary fuel to be discovered in the future. 1796 02:16:45,333 --> 02:16:50,864 The second law of thermodynamics will govern any turbine that makes electricity 1797 02:16:51,167 --> 02:16:54,367 that we all depend on; and allowed all these shapes to exist. 1798 02:16:54,545 --> 02:16:56,932 Moderator: Any response, Mr. Hamm? 1799 02:16:57,066 --> 02:17:02,965 Mr. Hamm: Let me just say two things if I can. If a minute goes that fast along. 1800 02:17:03,160 --> 02:17:08,333 One is, you know what, here's a point we need to understand. 1801 02:17:08,500 --> 02:17:13,133 You can have all the energy that you want, but energy or matter will never produce life. 1802 02:17:13,331 --> 02:17:21,000 God imposed information, language system. And that's how we have life. 1803 02:17:21,179 --> 02:17:25,666 Matter by itself could never produce life, no matter what energy you have. 1804 02:17:25,867 --> 02:17:29,900 And, you know, even if you've got a dead stick, you can have all the energy in the world in that dead stick, 1805 02:17:30,062 --> 02:17:34,367 it's going to decay, and it's not going to produce life. 1806 02:17:34,536 --> 02:17:40,234 From a creationist perspective, we certainly agree. I mean, before man sinned, you know, 1807 02:17:40,363 --> 02:17:44,130 there was digestion, and so on, but because of the Fall, now things are running down. 1808 02:17:44,300 --> 02:17:48,233 God doesn't hold everything together as He did back then. 1809 02:17:48,398 --> 02:17:52,566 So now we see, in regard to the second law of thermodynamics, we would say it's sort of, 1810 02:17:52,766 --> 02:17:58,633 in a sense, a bit out-of-control now, compared to what it was originally, which is why we have a running-down universe. 1811 02:17:58,814 --> 02:18:01,867 Moderator: And that's time. A new question for you, Mr. Ham. 1812 02:18:02,048 --> 02:18:08,965 Hypothetically, if evidence existed that caused you to have to admit that the Earth was older than 10,000 years, 1813 02:18:09,133 --> 02:18:15,200 and creation did not occur over six days, would you still believe in God and the historical Jesus of Nazareth 1814 02:18:15,391 --> 02:18:17,562 and that Jesus was the Son of God? 1815 02:18:17,698 --> 02:18:26,900 Ken Ham: Well, I've been emphasizing all night. You cannot ever prove using, you know, 1816 02:18:27,033 --> 02:18:30,034 the scientific method in the present, you can't prove the age of the Earth. 1817 02:18:30,233 --> 02:18:33,500 So you can never prove it's old. So there is no hypothetical. (Mr. Nye quietly chuckles.) 1818 02:18:33,699 --> 02:18:40,333 Because you can't do that. Now, we can certainly use methods in the present and making assumptions, 1819 02:18:40,553 --> 02:18:45,667 I mean, creationists use methods that change over time. As I said, there's hundreds of 1820 02:18:45,864 --> 02:18:50,233 physical processes that you can use, but they set limits on the age of the universe, 1821 02:18:50,534 --> 02:18:55,833 but you can't ultimately prove the age of the Earth, not using the scientific method. 1822 02:18:55,933 --> 02:18:58,866 You can't ultimately prove the age of the universe. 1823 02:18:59,049 --> 02:19:04,999 Now, you can look at methods, and you can see that there are many methods that contradict billions of years, 1824 02:19:05,187 --> 02:19:07,497 many methods that seem to support thousands of years. 1825 02:19:07,633 --> 02:19:12,568 As Dr. Faulkner said in the little video clip I showed, there is nothing in observational astronomy 1826 02:19:12,765 --> 02:19:18,668 that contradicts a young universe. Now, I've said to you before, and I admit again, 1827 02:19:18,833 --> 02:19:23,400 that the reason I believe in a young universe is because of the Bible's account of origins. 1828 02:19:23,618 --> 02:19:29,600 I believe that God, who has always been there, the infinite creator God, revealed in His Word what He did for us. 1829 02:19:29,744 --> 02:19:32,499 And, when we add up those dates, we get thousands of years. 1830 02:19:32,683 --> 02:19:35,899 But there's nothing in observational science that contradicts that. 1831 02:19:36,064 --> 02:19:42,866 As far as the age of the Earth, the age of the universe, even when it comes to the fossil record. 1832 02:19:43,061 --> 02:19:46,699 That's why I really challenge Christians, if you're gonna believe in millions of years for the fossil record, 1833 02:19:46,867 --> 02:19:53,432 you've got a problem with the Bible. And that is, then, that you've got to have death and disease and suffering before sin. 1834 02:19:53,599 --> 02:20:01,795 So, there is no hypothetical in regard to that. You can't prove scientifically, the age of the Earth or the universe, bottom line. 1835 02:20:01,912 --> 02:20:03,468 Moderator: Mr. Nye. 1836 02:20:03,468 --> 02:20:05,690 Mr. Nye: Well, of course this is where we disagree. 1837 02:20:05,690 --> 02:20:11,589 You can prove the age of the earth with great robustness by observing the universe around us. 1838 02:20:11,589 --> 02:20:17,096 And I get the feeling, Mr. Hamm, that you want us to take your word for it. 1839 02:20:17,096 --> 02:20:22,901 This is to say your interpretation of a book written thousands of years ago, 1840 02:20:22,901 --> 02:20:31,064 as translated into American English, is more compelling for you than everything that I can observe in the world around me. 1841 02:20:31,064 --> 02:20:34,465 This is where you and I, I think, are not going to see eye to eye. 1842 02:20:34,465 --> 02:20:40,964 You said you asserted that life cannot come from something that's not alive. Are you sure? 1843 02:20:40,964 --> 02:20:46,363 Are you sure enough to say that we should not continue to look for signs of water and life on Mars? 1844 02:20:46,363 --> 02:20:49,564 That that's a waste. You're sure enough to claim that. 1845 02:20:49,564 --> 02:20:55,333 That is an extraordinary claim that we want to investigate. 1846 02:20:55,333 --> 02:21:06,833 Once again, what is it you can predict? What do you provide us that can tell us something about the future; not just about your vision of the past? 1847 02:21:06,833 --> 02:21:08,672 Moderator: A new question, Mr. Nye. 1848 02:21:08,672 --> 02:21:11,098 Is there room for God in science? 1849 02:21:11,299 --> 02:21:20,032 Mr. Nye: Well, we remind us. There are billions of people around the world who are religious and who accept science 1850 02:21:20,032 --> 02:21:24,496 and embrace it, and especially all the technology that it brings us. 1851 02:21:24,496 --> 02:21:29,864 Is there anyone here who doesn't have a mobile phone that has a camera? 1852 02:21:29,864 --> 02:21:34,196 Is there anyone here whose family members have not benefited from modern medicine? 1853 02:21:34,196 --> 02:21:43,031 Is there anyone here who doesn't use e-mail? Is there anybody here who doesn't eat? 1854 02:21:43,031 --> 02:21:48,629 Because we use information sent from satellites in space to plant seeds on our farms. 1855 02:21:48,629 --> 02:21:54,498 That's how we're able to feed 7.1 billion people where we used to be barely able to feed a billion. 1856 02:21:54,498 --> 02:22:01,701 So that's what I see. That's what we have used science for the process. 1857 02:22:01,701 --> 02:22:06,510 Science for me is two things. It's the body of knowledge--the atomic number of rubidium. 1858 02:22:06,510 --> 02:22:10,894 And it's the process--the means by which we make these discoveries. 1859 02:22:10,897 --> 02:22:18,585 So for me that's not really that connected with your belief in a spiritual being or a higher power. 1860 02:22:18,585 --> 02:22:28,632 If you reconcile those two. Scientists, the head of the National Institutes of Health is a devout Christian. 1861 02:22:28,632 --> 02:22:32,900 There are billions of people in the world who are devoutly religious. 1862 02:22:32,900 --> 02:22:36,261 They have to be compatible because those same people embrace science. 1863 02:22:36,261 --> 02:22:41,133 The exception is you, Mr. Ham. That's the problem for me. 1864 02:22:41,133 --> 02:22:50,299 You want us to take your word for what's written in this ancient text to be more compelling than what we see around us. 1865 02:22:50,299 --> 02:22:55,632 The evidence for a higher power and spirituality is, for me, separate. 1866 02:22:55,632 --> 02:23:01,300 I encourage you to take the next minute and address this problem of the fossils, this problem of the ice layers, 1867 02:23:01,300 --> 02:23:06,567 this problem of the ancient trees, this problem of the ark. I mean really address it. 1868 02:23:06,567 --> 02:23:13,865 And so then we could move forward. But right now, I see no incompatibility between religions and science. 1869 02:23:13,865 --> 02:23:15,599 Moderator: That's time. Mr. Ham, response? 1870 02:23:15,599 --> 02:23:18,633 Mr. Ham: Yeah, I actually want to take a minute to address the question. 1871 02:23:18,633 --> 02:23:23,300 Let me just say this, my answer would be God is necessary for science. 1872 02:23:23,300 --> 02:23:27,333 In fact, you know you talked about cell phones. Yeah, I have a cell phone. I love technology. 1873 02:23:27,333 --> 02:23:32,896 We love technology here at Answers in Genesis. And, I have e-mail, probably had millions of them 1874 02:23:32,896 --> 02:23:38,600 while I've been speaking up here. And, satellites and what you said about the information we get, 1875 02:23:38,600 --> 02:23:43,331 I agree with all that. See, they're the things that can be done in the present. 1876 02:23:43,331 --> 02:23:51,233 And that's just like I showed you. Dr. Stuart Burgess who invented that gear set for the satellite, creationists can be great scientists. 1877 02:23:51,337 --> 02:23:55,666 But, see, I say God is necessary because you have to assume the laws of logic. You have to assume the laws of nature. 1878 02:23:55,666 --> 02:24:00,002 You have to assume the uniformity in nature. And that is the question I had for you. 1879 02:24:00,002 --> 02:24:04,733 Where does that come from if the universe is here by natural processes. 1880 02:24:04,733 --> 02:24:09,496 And, Christianity and science, the Bible and science, go hand in hand. 1881 02:24:09,496 --> 02:24:14,031 We love science. But again, you've got to understand. Inventing things, that's very different 1882 02:24:14,031 --> 02:24:17,334 than talking about our origins. Two very different things. 1883 02:24:17,334 --> 02:24:22,031 Moderator: Mr. Ham, a new question. Do you believe the entire Bible is to be taken literally? 1884 02:24:22,031 --> 02:24:26,330 For example, should people who touch pigs' skin, I think it says here, be stoned? 1885 02:24:26,330 --> 02:24:30,231 Can men marry multiple women? 1886 02:24:30,231 --> 02:24:36,132 Mr. Ham: Do I believe the entire Bible should be taken literally? Remember in my opening address 1887 02:24:36,132 --> 02:24:41,330 I said we have to define our terms. So, when people ask that question, say literally, I have to know 1888 02:24:41,330 --> 02:24:44,733 what that person meant by literally. Now, I would say this. 1889 02:24:44,733 --> 02:24:51,197 If you say "naturally" and that's what you mean by "literally", I would say, yes, I take the Bible "naturally". 1890 02:24:51,197 --> 02:24:55,066 What do I mean by that? Well, if it's history, as Genesis is, 1891 02:24:55,066 --> 02:24:57,965 it's written as typical historical narrative, you take it as history. 1892 02:24:57,965 --> 02:25:03,433 If it's poetry, as we find in the Psalms, then you take it as poetry. 1893 02:25:03,433 --> 02:25:09,766 It doesn't mean it doesn't teach truth, but it's not a cosmological account in the sense that Genesis is. 1894 02:25:09,766 --> 02:25:17,065 There's prophecy in the Bible and there's literature in the Bible concerning future events and so on. 1895 02:25:17,065 --> 02:25:22,600 So, if you take it as written, naturally, according to typal literature, and you let it speak to you 1896 02:25:22,600 --> 02:25:27,833 in that way, that's how I take the Bible. It's God's revelation to man. He used different people. 1897 02:25:27,833 --> 02:25:32,066 The Bible says that all scripture's inspired by God. So God moved people by his spirit 1898 02:25:32,066 --> 02:25:36,664 to write his words. And, also, there's a lot of misunderstanding in regard to scripture 1899 02:25:36,664 --> 02:25:42,066 and in regard to the Israelites. I mean we have laws in our civil government here in America 1900 02:25:42,066 --> 02:25:45,469 that the government sets. Well there were certain laws for Israel. And, you know, some people 1901 02:25:45,469 --> 02:25:49,068 take all that out of context. And then they try to impose it on us today as Christians 1902 02:25:49,068 --> 02:25:53,567 and say, you should be obeying those laws. It's a misunderstanding of the Old Testament. 1903 02:25:53,567 --> 02:25:56,632 It's a misunderstanding of the New Testament. 1904 02:25:56,632 --> 02:26:01,833 And, you know, again, it's important to take the Bible as a whole. Interpreting scripture as scripture. 1905 02:26:01,833 --> 02:26:06,500 If it really is the word of God, there's not going to be any contradiction. Which there's not. 1906 02:26:06,500 --> 02:26:10,498 And by the way, when men were married to multiple women, there were lots of problems. 1907 02:26:10,498 --> 02:26:15,096 (Laughter) ...and the Bible condemns that for what it is, and the Bible is very clear. 1908 02:26:15,096 --> 02:26:19,167 You know the Bible is a real book. There were people who did things that were not in accord with scripture, 1909 02:26:19,167 --> 02:26:23,198 and it records this for us. It helps you understand it's a real book. But marriage was one man for 1910 02:26:23,198 --> 02:26:27,599 one woman. Jesus reiterated that in Matthew 19, as I had in my talk. 1911 02:26:27,599 --> 02:26:31,304 And so those that did marry multiple women were wrong. 1912 02:26:31,304 --> 02:26:34,101 Moderator: Time there. Mr. Nye, a response? 1913 02:26:34,101 --> 02:26:37,266 Mr. Nye: So it sounds to me, just listening to you over the last two minutes, 1914 02:26:37,266 --> 02:26:42,134 that there's certain parts of this document of the Bible that you embrace literally 1915 02:26:42,134 --> 02:26:46,829 and other parts you consider poetry. So it sounds to me, in those last two minutes, 1916 02:26:46,829 --> 02:26:59,799 like you're going to take what you like, interpret literally, and other passages you're gonna interpret as poetic or descriptions of human events. 1917 02:26:59,799 --> 02:27:08,999 All that aside, I'll just say scientifically, or as a reasonable man, it doesn't seem possible that 1918 02:27:08,999 --> 02:27:15,600 all these things that contradict your literal interpretation of those first few passages, 1919 02:27:15,600 --> 02:27:22,333 all those things that contradict that, I find unsettling, when you want me to embrace the rest of it 1920 02:27:22,333 --> 02:27:27,432 as literal. Now, I, as I say, am not a theologian. But we started this debate, 1921 02:27:27,432 --> 02:27:33,400 Is Ken Ham's creation model viable? Does it hold water? Can it fly? Does it describe anything? 1922 02:27:33,400 --> 02:27:36,300 And I'm still looking for an answer. 1923 02:27:36,300 --> 02:27:38,696 Moderator: And time on that. Mr. Nye, here's a new question. 1924 02:27:38,696 --> 02:27:44,593 I believe this was miswritten here because they've repeated a word. But I think I know what they were 1925 02:27:44,593 --> 02:27:54,353 trying to ask. Have you ever believed that evolution was accomplished through way of a higher power? 1926 02:27:54,365 --> 02:27:58,298 I think that's what they're trying to ask here. This is the intelligent design question, I think. 1927 02:27:58,298 --> 02:28:03,685 If so, why or why not? Why could not the evolutionary process be accomplished in this way? 1928 02:28:03,685 --> 02:28:08,795 Mr. Nye: I think you may have changed the question just a little but, no, it's all good. 1929 02:28:08,846 --> 02:28:13,399 Moderator: The word for word question is, have you ever believed that evolution partook through way of evolution? 1930 02:28:13,399 --> 02:28:18,567 (talking at the same time) Mr. Nye: Let me introduce these ideas for Mr. Ham to comment. 1931 02:28:18,567 --> 02:28:27,733 The idea that there's a higher power that has driven the course of the events in the universe 1932 02:28:27,733 --> 02:28:35,031 and our own existence, is one that you can not prove or disprove. And this gets into this expression, "agnostic." 1933 02:28:35,031 --> 02:28:38,966 You can't know. I'll grant you that. 1934 02:28:38,966 --> 02:28:45,232 When it comes to intelligent design, which is, if I understand your interpretation of the question, 1935 02:28:45,232 --> 02:28:52,666 intelligent design has a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of nature. 1936 02:28:52,666 --> 02:28:58,200 This is to say, the old expression is if you were to find a watch in the field, 1937 02:28:58,200 --> 02:29:03,800 and you pick it up, you would realize that it was created by somebody who was thinking ahead, 1938 02:29:03,800 --> 02:29:08,666 somebody with an organization chart, somebody at the top. And you'd order screws from screw manufacturers 1939 02:29:08,666 --> 02:29:12,567 and springs from spring manufacturers and glass crystals from crystal manufacturers. 1940 02:29:12,567 --> 02:29:15,632 But that's not how nature works. 1941 02:29:15,632 --> 02:29:22,163 This is the fundamental insight in the explanation for living things that is provided by evolution. 1942 02:29:22,163 --> 02:29:28,302 Evolution is a process that adds complexity through natural selection, this is to say, 1943 02:29:28,302 --> 02:29:33,198 nature has its mediocre designs eaten by its good designs. 1944 02:29:33,198 --> 02:29:41,566 And so, the perception that there is a designer that created all this, is not necessarily true, 1945 02:29:41,566 --> 02:29:48,167 because we have an explanation that is far more compelling and provides predictions, and things are repeatable. 1946 02:29:48,167 --> 02:29:53,864 I'm sure, Mr. Ham here, at the facility, you have an organization chart. 1947 02:29:53,864 --> 02:29:58,464 I imagine you're at the top, and it's a top-down structure. 1948 02:29:58,464 --> 02:30:03,333 Nature is not that way. Nature is bottom-up. 1949 02:30:03,333 --> 02:30:10,233 This is the discovery. Things merge up. Whatever makes it, keeps going. Whatever doesn't make it, falls away. 1950 02:30:10,233 --> 02:30:17,199 And this is compelling and wonderful and fills me with joy and is inconsistent with a top-down view. 1951 02:30:17,199 --> 02:30:18,933 Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham. 1952 02:30:18,933 --> 02:30:27,733 Ken Ham: What Bill Nye needs to do for me is to show me an example of something, some new function 1953 02:30:27,733 --> 02:30:32,533 that arose that was not previously possible from the genetic information that was there. 1954 02:30:32,533 --> 02:30:36,368 And I would claim, and challenge you, that there is no such example that you can give. 1955 02:30:36,368 --> 02:30:42,821 That's why I brought up the example in my presentation of Lensky's experiments in regard to e coli. 1956 02:30:42,821 --> 02:30:47,632 And there were some that seemed to develop the ability to exist on citrate, 1957 02:30:47,632 --> 02:30:51,197 but as Dr. Fabich said, from looking at his research, 1958 02:30:51,197 --> 02:30:53,400 he's found that that information was already there. 1959 02:30:53,400 --> 02:31:01,262 It's just a gene that switched on and off. And so, there is no example, because information that's there, 1960 02:31:01,262 --> 02:31:09,101 and the genetic information of different animals, plants and so on, there's no new function that can be added. 1961 02:31:09,101 --> 02:31:12,101 Certainly, great variation within a kind, and that's what we look at. 1962 02:31:12,101 --> 02:31:16,264 But you'd have to show an example of brand-new function that never previously was possible. 1963 02:31:16,264 --> 02:31:20,465 There is no such example that you can give anywhere in the world. 1964 02:31:20,465 --> 02:31:24,898 Moderator: Uh, fresh question here. Mr. Ham, name one institution, business, or organization, 1965 02:31:24,898 --> 02:31:28,099 other than a church, amusement park, or the Creation Museum 1966 02:31:28,099 --> 02:31:31,950 that is using any aspect of creationism to produce its product. 1967 02:31:31,950 --> 02:31:40,167 Ken Ham: Any scientist out there, Christian or non-Christian, that is involved in 1968 02:31:40,167 --> 02:31:46,213 inventing things, involved in scientific method, is using creation. 1969 02:31:46,433 --> 02:31:50,565 They are, because they are borrowing from a Christian worldview. 1970 02:31:50,565 --> 02:31:52,866 They are using the laws of logic. I keep emphasizing that. 1971 02:31:52,866 --> 02:31:58,634 I want Bill to tell me, in a view of the universe, as a result of natural processes, 1972 02:31:58,634 --> 02:32:03,799 explain where the laws of logic came from. Why should we trust the laws of nature? 1973 02:32:03,799 --> 02:32:07,365 I mean, are they going to be the same tomorrow as they were yesterday? 1974 02:32:07,365 --> 02:32:14,577 In fact, some of the greatest scientists that ever lived: Isaac Newton, James Clerk Maxwell, Michael Faraday were creationists. 1975 02:32:14,577 --> 02:32:18,154 And as one of them said, you know, he's thinking God's thoughts after Him. 1976 02:32:18,266 --> 02:32:24,268 And that's really, modern science came out of that thinking, that we can do experiments today, 1977 02:32:24,268 --> 02:32:29,033 and we can do the same tomorrow. And we can trust the laws of logic. We can trust the laws of nature. 1978 02:32:29,033 --> 02:32:34,432 And if we don't teach our children correctly about this, they're NOT going to be innovative. 1979 02:32:34,432 --> 02:32:42,300 And they're not going to be able to come up with inventions to advance in our culture. 1980 02:32:42,300 --> 02:32:47,830 And so, I think the person was trying to get out that, see, you know, 1981 02:32:47,830 --> 02:32:52,300 there are lots of secularists out there doing work. And they don't believe in creation. 1982 02:32:52,300 --> 02:32:57,600 And they come up with great inventions, yeah. But my point is, they are borrowing from the Christian worldview to do so. 1983 02:32:57,600 --> 02:33:01,899 And as you saw from the video quotes I gave, people like Andrew Fabich 1984 02:33:01,899 --> 02:33:04,799 and also Dr. Faulkner have published in the secular journals. 1985 02:33:04,799 --> 02:33:07,798 There's lots of creationists out there who publish. 1986 02:33:07,798 --> 02:33:15,200 People mightn't know that they're creationists because the topic doesn't specifically pertain to creation vs. evolution. 1987 02:33:15,200 --> 02:33:17,932 But there's lots of them out there. In fact, go to our website. 1988 02:33:17,932 --> 02:33:21,399 There's a whole list there of scientists who are creationists, 1989 02:33:21,399 --> 02:33:26,530 who are out there doing great work in this world and helping to advance technology. 1990 02:33:26,530 --> 02:33:28,700 Moderator: Mr. Nye 1991 02:33:28,700 --> 02:33:35,000 Bill Nye: There's a reason that I don't accept your Ken Ham model of creation. 1992 02:33:35,000 --> 02:33:39,733 Is that it has no predictive quality as you had touched on, 1993 02:33:39,733 --> 02:33:42,064 and something that I've always found troubling. 1994 02:33:42,064 --> 02:33:47,767 It sounds as though and next time around you can correct me. 1995 02:33:47,767 --> 02:33:56,067 It sounds as though you believe your world view, which is a literal interpretation of most parts of the Bible, is correct. 1996 02:33:56,067 --> 02:34:00,333 Well, what became of all those people who never heard of it? 1997 02:34:00,333 --> 02:34:04,567 Never heard of you? What became of all those people in Asia? 1998 02:34:04,567 --> 02:34:08,634 What became of all those first nations people in North America? 1999 02:34:08,634 --> 02:34:14,266 Were they condemned and doomed? I mean, I don't know how much time you've spent talking to strangers, 2000 02:34:14,266 --> 02:34:23,357 but they're not sanguine about that. To have you tell them that they are inherently lost or misguided. 2001 02:34:23,357 --> 02:34:27,927 It's very troubling. And you say there are no examples in nature. 2002 02:34:27,931 --> 02:34:32,934 There are countless examples of how the process of science makes predictions. 2003 02:34:32,934 --> 02:34:37,533 Moderator: Mr. Nye, since evolution teaches that man is evolving and growing smarter over time, 2004 02:34:37,533 --> 02:34:42,780 how can you explain the numerous evidences of man's high intelligence in the past? 2005 02:34:42,780 --> 02:34:47,730 Bill Nye: Hang on, there's no evidence that man or humans are getting smarter. 2006 02:34:47,730 --> 02:34:56,456 No, especially if you ever met my old boss. Heh, heh, heh. (laughter) 2007 02:34:56,456 --> 02:35:05,633 No, it's that what happens in evolution. And there's, it's a British word that was used in the middle 1800's. 2008 02:35:05,633 --> 02:35:13,764 It's survival of the fittest. And this usage, it doesn't mean the most push-ups or the highest scores on standardized tests. 2009 02:35:13,764 --> 02:35:22,328 It means that those that "fit in" the best. Our intellect, such as it is, has enabled us to dominate the world. 2010 02:35:22,328 --> 02:35:26,091 I mean, the evidence of humans is everywhere. 2011 02:35:26,092 --> 02:35:30,375 James Cameron just made another trip to the bottom of the ocean, in the deepest part of the ocean, 2012 02:35:30,375 --> 02:35:35,004 the first time since 1960. And when they made the first trip, they found a beer can. 2013 02:35:35,004 --> 02:35:43,003 Humans are everywhere. And so, it is our capacity to reason that has taken us to where we are now. 2014 02:35:43,003 --> 02:35:49,867 If a germ shows up, as it did, for example, in World War I, where more people were killed by the flu 2015 02:35:49,867 --> 02:35:52,247 than were killed by the combatants in World War I. 2016 02:35:52,247 --> 02:35:58,764 That is a troubling and remarkable fact. If the right germ shows up, we'll be taken out. 2017 02:35:58,767 --> 02:36:04,240 We'll be eliminated. Being smarter is not a necessary consequence of evolution. 2018 02:36:04,240 --> 02:36:10,667 So far, it seems to be the way things are going because of the remarkable advantage it gives to us. 2019 02:36:10,667 --> 02:36:15,030 We can control our environment and even change it, as we are doing today, apparently by accident. 2020 02:36:15,030 --> 02:36:21,662 So, everybody, just take a little while and grasp this fundamental idea. 2021 02:36:21,664 --> 02:36:28,827 It's how you "fit in" with nature around you. So, as the world changed, as it did, for example, the ancient dinosaurs, 2022 02:36:28,827 --> 02:36:34,832 they were "taken out" by a worldwide fireball, apparently caused by an impacter. 2023 02:36:34,832 --> 02:36:41,567 That's the best theory we have. And we are the result of people, of organisms that lived through that catastrophe. 2024 02:36:41,567 --> 02:36:46,930 It's not necessarily smarter. It's how you "fit in" with your environment. 2025 02:36:46,930 --> 02:36:48,938 Moderator: Mr. Ham, a response? 2026 02:36:48,938 --> 02:36:53,933 Ken Ham: I remember at university, one of my professors was very excited to give us some evidence for evolution. 2027 02:36:53,933 --> 02:36:59,698 He said, "Look at this. Here's an example. These fish have evolved the ability not to see." 2028 02:36:59,698 --> 02:37:02,506 And, he was going to give an example of blind cave fish. 2029 02:37:02,506 --> 02:37:08,680 And he said, "See, in this cave, they're evolving, because now the ones that are living there, their ancestors had eyes. 2030 02:37:08,680 --> 02:37:12,673 Now these ones are blind." And I remember, I was talking to my professor, "But wait a minute! 2031 02:37:12,673 --> 02:37:17,718 Now they can't do something that they could do before." Yeah, they might have an advantage in this sense. 2032 02:37:17,718 --> 02:37:22,300 In a situation that's dark like that, those with eyes might have got diseases and died out. 2033 02:37:22,300 --> 02:37:25,435 Those that had mutations for no eyes are the ones that survived. 2034 02:37:25,435 --> 02:37:28,866 It's not survival of the fittest. It's survival of those who survive. 2035 02:37:28,866 --> 02:37:33,767 And it's survival of those that have the information in their circumstance to survive, 2036 02:37:33,767 --> 02:37:37,764 but you're not getting new information. You're not getting new function. 2037 02:37:37,764 --> 02:37:44,033 There's no example of that at all. So, we need to correctly understand these things. 2038 02:37:44,033 --> 02:37:48,617 Moderator: Alright. Um, we're down to our final question here, which I'll give to both of you. 2039 02:37:48,617 --> 02:37:51,999 And in the interest of fairness here, because it is a question to the both of you, 2040 02:37:51,999 --> 02:37:55,072 let's give each man two minutes on this if we can, please. 2041 02:37:55,072 --> 02:37:59,883 And also, in the interest of you having started first, Mr. Ham, I will have you start first here. 2042 02:37:59,883 --> 02:38:02,299 You'll have the first word. Mr. Nye will have the last word. 2043 02:38:02,299 --> 02:38:10,127 The question is: what is the one thing, more than anything else, upon which you base your belief? 2044 02:38:10,127 --> 02:38:14,332 Mr. Ham: What is the one thing upon anything else which I base my belief? 2045 02:38:14,332 --> 02:38:21,466 Well, again, to summarize the things that I've been saying, there is a book called the Bible. 2046 02:38:21,466 --> 02:38:24,590 It's a very unique book. It's very different to any other book out there. 2047 02:38:24,590 --> 02:38:29,596 In fact, I don't know of any other religion that has a book that starts off by 2048 02:38:29,596 --> 02:38:33,998 telling you that there's an infinite God, and talks about the origin of the universe, 2049 02:38:33,998 --> 02:38:36,598 and the origin of matter, and the origin of light, and the origin of darkness, 2050 02:38:36,598 --> 02:38:41,591 and the origin of day and night, and the origin of the earth, and the origin of dry land, 2051 02:38:41,591 --> 02:38:45,400 and the origin of plants, and the origin of the sun, moon and stars, the origin of sea creatures, 2052 02:38:45,400 --> 02:38:48,831 the origin of flying creatures, the origin of land creatures, the origin of man, 2053 02:38:48,831 --> 02:38:52,699 the origin of woman, the origin of death, the origin of sin, the origin of marriage, 2054 02:38:52,699 --> 02:38:58,196 the origin of different languages, the origin of clothing, the origin of nations, 2055 02:38:58,196 --> 02:39:01,000 I mean it's a very, very specific book. 2056 02:39:01,000 --> 02:39:06,508 And it gives us an account of a global flood and the history and the tower of Babel, 2057 02:39:06,508 --> 02:39:10,534 and if that history is true, then what about the rest of the book? 2058 02:39:10,534 --> 02:39:15,597 Well, that history also says man is a sinner and it says that man is separated from God. 2059 02:39:15,597 --> 02:39:20,756 And it gives us a message, that we call the gospel, the message of salvation, that God's 2060 02:39:20,756 --> 02:39:23,832 son stepped in history to die on the cross, to be raised from the dead, 2061 02:39:23,832 --> 02:39:25,499 and offers a free gift of salvation. 2062 02:39:25,499 --> 02:39:29,266 Because the history is true, that's why the message based on history is true. 2063 02:39:29,266 --> 02:39:33,729 I actually went through some predictions and listed others, and there's a lot more that you can look at, 2064 02:39:33,729 --> 02:39:37,067 and you can go and test it for yourself. If this book really is true, 2065 02:39:37,067 --> 02:39:41,667 it is so specific, it should explain the world, it should make sense of what we see. 2066 02:39:41,667 --> 02:39:43,667 The flood. Yeah, we have fossils all over the world. 2067 02:39:43,667 --> 02:39:46,431 The tower of Babel, yeah, different people groups, different languages, 2068 02:39:46,431 --> 02:39:50,634 they have flood legends very similar to the Bible. Creation legends similar to the Bible. 2069 02:39:50,634 --> 02:39:53,600 There's so much you can look at, and prophesy and so on. 2070 02:39:53,600 --> 02:39:57,252 Most of all, as I said to you, the Bible says, if you come to God, believing that he is, 2071 02:39:57,252 --> 02:40:00,053 he'll reveal himself to you. You will know. If you search after truth, 2072 02:40:00,053 --> 02:40:03,793 you really want God to show you, as you would search after silver and gold, 2073 02:40:03,793 --> 02:40:07,467 he will show you. He will reveal himself to you. 2074 02:40:07,467 --> 02:40:08,913 Moderator: Mr. Nye? 2075 02:40:08,913 --> 02:40:10,526 Mr. Nye: Would you repeat the question? 2076 02:40:10,526 --> 02:40:17,618 Moderator: The question is: What is the one thing, more than anything else, upon which you base your belief? 2077 02:40:17,618 --> 02:40:21,046 Mr. Nye: As my old professor Carl Sagan said so often, 2078 02:40:21,046 --> 02:40:30,104 when you're in love, you want to tell the world. And I base my beliefs on the information 2079 02:40:30,104 --> 02:40:33,763 and the process that we call science. 2080 02:40:33,763 --> 02:40:39,369 It fills me with joy to make discoveries every day of things I'd never seen before. 2081 02:40:39,369 --> 02:40:44,700 It fills me with joy to know that we can pursue these answers. 2082 02:40:44,700 --> 02:40:51,253 It is a wonderful and astonishing thing to me, that we are, you and I, 2083 02:40:51,253 --> 02:40:58,302 are somehow, at least one of the ways that the universe knows itself. 2084 02:40:58,302 --> 02:41:03,234 You and I are a product of the universe. It's astonishing. I admit, I see your faces. 2085 02:41:03,234 --> 02:41:08,867 That we have come to be because of the universe's existence. 2086 02:41:08,867 --> 02:41:13,733 And we are driven to pursue that. To find out where we came from. 2087 02:41:13,733 --> 02:41:16,233 And the second question we all want to know: 2088 02:41:16,233 --> 02:41:22,051 Are we alone? Are we alone in the universe? And these questions are deep within us, 2089 02:41:22,051 --> 02:41:30,714 and they drive us. So the process of science, the way we know nature is the most compelling thing to me. 2090 02:41:30,714 --> 02:41:37,000 And I just want to close by reminding everybody what's at stake here. 2091 02:41:37,000 --> 02:41:44,334 If we abandon all that we've learned, our ancestors, what they've learned about nature and our place in it, 2092 02:41:44,334 --> 02:41:48,231 if we abandon the process by which we know it, 2093 02:41:48,231 --> 02:41:52,866 if we eschew, if we let go of everything that people have learned before us, 2094 02:41:52,866 --> 02:41:57,700 if we stop driving forward, stop looking for the next answer to the next question, 2095 02:41:57,700 --> 02:42:03,764 we, in the United States, will be outcompeted by other countries, other economies. 2096 02:42:03,764 --> 02:42:08,134 Now, that would be okay, I guess, but I was born here. I'm a patriot. 2097 02:42:08,134 --> 02:42:12,719 So we have to embrace science education. To the voters and taxpayers that are watching, 2098 02:42:12,719 --> 02:42:19,956 please keep that in mind. We have to keep science education in science and science classes. Thank you. 2099 02:42:19,956 --> 02:42:26,300 Moderator: One tiny bit of important housekeeping for everyone here, the county is now under a level two snow emergency. 2100 02:42:26,300 --> 02:42:31,332 Drive home carefully. You'll have a lot to talk about, but drive carefully. 2101 02:42:31,332 --> 02:42:37,767 This debate will be archived at debatelive.org. That's debatelive.org, one word. 2102 02:42:37,767 --> 02:42:43,436 It will be found at that site for several days. You can encourage friends and family to watch and take it over. 2103 02:42:43,436 --> 02:42:54,160 Thanks so much to Mr. Nye and to Mr. Ham (Loud applause) for an excellent discussion. 2104 02:42:54,160 --> 02:42:58,997 I'm Tom Foreman, thank you, good night from Petersburg, Kentucky and the Creation Museum. 2105 02:42:58,997 --> 02:43:15,531 (applause) 2106 02:43:15,531 --> 02:43:50,667 (orchestral music) 2107 02:43:50,667 --> 02:44:18,294 ORDER TONIGHT! Here or online 2108 02:44:18,294 --> 02:45:32,895 (silence)