1 00:00:00,211 --> 00:12:43,676 (Music) 2 00:12:43,676 --> 00:12:46,339 Oh, hi kids! I have an incredible message for you! 3 00:12:46,475 --> 00:12:48,847 Hey, can someone take Thelma back to the petting zoo? 4 00:12:49,233 --> 00:12:50,867 Wow, that looks like fun! 5 00:12:51,132 --> 00:12:55,327 No where was I? Oh yes, in 2014, kids 12 and under can come free! 6 00:12:55,697 --> 00:12:58,133 Hey, shouldn't the comets be in the planetarium? 7 00:12:58,255 --> 00:13:01,164 For the entire year, kids 12 and under come free. 8 00:13:01,497 --> 00:13:04,166 Hey, T-rex, you better get back to the dinasour den! 9 00:13:04,365 --> 00:13:06,962 As you can see, it's a very exciting place. 10 00:13:07,085 --> 00:13:10,136 Now tell your parents, kids 12 and under free in 2014 11 00:13:10,136 --> 00:13:11,882 when accompanied by a paying adult. 12 00:13:11,882 --> 00:13:13,587 We hope to see you soon. 13 00:13:14,519 --> 00:13:17,801 Good evening, I'm please to welcome you to Legacy Hall 14 00:13:17,801 --> 00:13:20,688 of the Creation Museum in Northern Kentucky 15 00:13:20,688 --> 00:13:23,267 in the Metropolitan area of Cincinnati. 16 00:13:23,267 --> 00:13:25,030 I'm Tom Forman from CNN. 17 00:13:25,074 --> 00:13:26,800 And I'm please to be tonight's moderator for 18 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,274 this Evolution vs. Creation debate. 19 00:13:30,274 --> 00:13:33,256 This is a very old question, where did we come from? 20 00:13:34,277 --> 00:13:37,204 My answer is from Washington this morning by airplane. 21 00:13:37,204 --> 00:13:43,139 (Laughter) But there is a much more profound, longer answer, 22 00:13:43,139 --> 00:13:45,162 That people have sought after for a long time. 23 00:13:45,162 --> 00:13:48,023 So, tonight's question to be debated is the following: 24 00:13:48,521 --> 00:13:55,500 Is Creation a viable model of origins in today's modern Scientific era? 25 00:13:55,731 --> 00:13:58,182 Our welcome extends to hundreds of thousands of people 26 00:13:58,182 --> 00:14:01,795 who are watching on the internet at debatelive.org. 27 00:14:01,795 --> 00:14:03,165 We're glad you have joined us. 28 00:14:03,165 --> 00:14:04,966 Of course, your auditorium here, 29 00:14:04,966 --> 00:14:06,725 all of the folks who've joined us as well. 30 00:14:06,725 --> 00:14:10,075 We're joined by 70 media representatives from many 31 00:14:10,075 --> 00:14:12,107 of the world's great news organizations. 32 00:14:12,107 --> 00:14:13,954 We're glad to have them here as well. 33 00:14:13,954 --> 00:14:18,222 And now let's welcome our debaters: Mr. Bill Nye and Mr. Ken Ham. 34 00:14:18,437 --> 00:14:47,679 (audience applauds) 35 00:14:47,679 --> 00:14:50,103 We had a coin toss earlier to determine 36 00:14:50,429 --> 00:14:52,264 who would go first of these two men. 37 00:14:52,605 --> 00:14:54,434 The only thing missing was Joe Namath in a fur coat. 38 00:14:55,498 --> 00:14:59,136 But it went very well. Mr. Ham won the coin toss 39 00:15:00,065 --> 00:15:04,393 and he opted to speak first. But first, let me tell you 40 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:05,866 a little bit about both of these gentlemen. 41 00:15:06,068 --> 00:15:07,966 Mr. Nye's website describes him as a scientist, 42 00:15:08,270 --> 00:15:10,664 engineer, comedian, author, and inventor. 43 00:15:10,931 --> 00:15:14,300 Mr Nye, as you may know, produced a number of award-winning TV shows, 44 00:15:14,566 --> 00:15:16,900 including a program he became so well-known for: 45 00:15:17,297 --> 00:15:19,132 Bill Nye the Science Guy. 46 00:15:19,796 --> 00:15:21,865 While working on the Science Guy show, Mr. Nye won 47 00:15:22,067 --> 00:15:24,997 seven national Emmy awards for writing, performing, 48 00:15:25,334 --> 00:15:28,547 and producing the show. Won 18 Emmys in five years! 49 00:15:28,969 --> 00:15:32,774 In between creating the shows, he wrote five kids books about science, 50 00:15:33,069 --> 00:15:36,933 including his latest title, Bill Nye's Great Big Book of Tiny Germs. 51 00:15:37,663 --> 00:15:40,504 Billy Nye is the host of three television series: 52 00:15:40,732 --> 00:15:42,866 his program, "The 100 Greatest Discoveries"-- 53 00:15:43,165 --> 00:15:45,131 it airs on the Science Channel. "The Eyes of Nye"-- 54 00:15:45,696 --> 00:15:48,065 airs on PBS stations across the country. He frequenly appears 55 00:15:48,397 --> 00:15:51,233 on interview programs to discuss a variety of science topics. 56 00:15:51,665 --> 00:15:55,464 Mr. Nye serves as Executive Director of the Planetary Society, 57 00:15:55,767 --> 00:15:57,701 the world's largest space interest group. 58 00:15:58,167 --> 00:16:00,847 He is a graduate of Cornell, with a Bachelors 59 00:16:00,847 --> 00:16:03,198 of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering. 60 00:16:03,998 --> 00:16:08,034 Mr. Ken Ham is the president and co-founder of Answers in Genesis, 61 00:16:08,397 --> 00:16:10,967 a bible-defending organization that upholds the authority 62 00:16:11,330 --> 00:16:12,964 of the scriptures from the very first verse. 63 00:16:13,399 --> 00:16:16,965 Mr. Ham is the man behind the popular, high-tech 64 00:16:17,233 --> 00:16:18,929 Creation Museum, where we're holding this debate. 65 00:16:19,429 --> 00:16:21,565 The museum has had 2 million visitors in six years 66 00:16:21,771 --> 00:16:23,367 and has attracted much of the world's media. 67 00:16:23,867 --> 00:16:26,162 The Answers in Genesis website, as well, trafficked 68 00:16:26,364 --> 00:16:29,093 with 2 million visitors alone last month. Mr. Ham is also 69 00:16:29,347 --> 00:16:32,767 a best-selling author, a much in-demand speaker, 70 00:16:33,033 --> 00:16:37,000 and the host of a daily radio feature carried on 700 plus stations. 71 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:41,000 This is his second public debate on Evolution and Creation. 72 00:16:41,267 --> 00:16:43,768 The first was at Harvard, in the 1990s. 73 00:16:44,131 --> 00:16:46,597 Mr. Ham is a native of Australia. He earned 74 00:16:46,764 --> 00:16:49,231 a Bachelors degree in Applied Science, with an emphasis in 75 00:16:49,443 --> 00:16:52,833 Environmental Biology, from the Queensland's Institute of Technology, 76 00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:55,995 as well as a Diploma of Education at the University 77 00:16:56,337 --> 00:16:59,632 of Queensland in Brisbon, Australia. 78 00:16:59,997 --> 00:17:02,800 And now...Mr. Ham, you opted to go first, so you will 79 00:17:03,067 --> 00:17:05,900 be first with your five minute opening statement. 80 00:17:08,364 --> 00:17:10,932 Well, good evening. I know that not everyone watching 81 00:17:11,360 --> 00:17:14,538 this debate will necessarily agree with what I have to say, 82 00:17:15,164 --> 00:17:17,770 but I'm an Aussie and live over here in America 83 00:17:18,103 --> 00:17:20,464 and they tell me I have an accent and so it doesn't matter 84 00:17:20,765 --> 00:17:24,360 what I say, some people tell me. We just like to hear you saying it. (laughter) 85 00:17:25,264 --> 00:17:26,969 So...um...I hope you enjoy me saying it anyway. 86 00:17:27,433 --> 00:17:29,398 Well, the debate topic is this: Is Creation 87 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,100 a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era? 88 00:17:33,367 --> 00:17:35,734 You know, when this was first announced on the internet, 89 00:17:36,332 --> 00:17:37,828 there were lots of statements-- like this one 90 00:17:38,030 --> 00:17:39,459 from the Richard Dawkins Foundation. 91 00:17:39,962 --> 00:17:42,232 "Scientists should not debate Creationists. Period." 92 00:17:43,033 --> 00:17:45,663 And this one from one of the Discovery.com websites. 93 00:17:46,233 --> 00:17:48,068 "Should Scientists Debate Creationists?" 94 00:17:48,566 --> 00:17:50,932 You know, right here I believe there's a gross misrepresentation 95 00:17:51,199 --> 00:17:55,265 in our culture. We're seeing people being indoctrinated 96 00:17:55,536 --> 00:17:57,783 to believe that Creationists can't be Scientists. 97 00:17:58,305 --> 00:18:01,732 I believe it's all a part of secularists hi-jacking the word "Science". 98 00:18:02,199 --> 00:18:05,535 I want you to meet a modern-day scientist who's a Biblical Creationist. 99 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:07,462 My name is Stuart Burgess. 100 00:18:07,997 --> 00:18:11,798 I'm a professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in the U.K. 101 00:18:13,523 --> 00:18:15,517 My name is Stuart Burgess. 102 00:18:15,517 --> 00:18:19,957 I'm a professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in the U.K. 103 00:18:20,217 --> 00:18:23,309 I have published over 130 scientific papers on 104 00:18:23,329 --> 00:18:27,866 the science of design in Engineering and Biological systems. 105 00:18:29,094 --> 00:18:32,267 From my research work, I have found that the scientific evidence 106 00:18:32,534 --> 00:18:36,037 fully supports Creationism as the best explanation to origins. 107 00:18:37,290 --> 00:18:39,860 I've also designed major parts of spacecrafts, 108 00:18:40,232 --> 00:18:41,933 launched by ESA and NASA. 109 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:43,862 So here's a biblical Creationist, 110 00:18:44,138 --> 00:18:46,300 who's a scientist, who's also an inventor. 111 00:18:46,895 --> 00:18:48,431 And I want young people to understand that. 112 00:18:49,132 --> 00:18:52,202 You know, the problem, I believe, is this: we need to define terms correctly. 113 00:18:52,633 --> 00:18:55,864 We need to define Creation/Evolution in regard to origins 114 00:18:56,272 --> 00:18:59,231 and we need to define science. And in this opening statement, 115 00:18:59,564 --> 00:19:01,798 I want to concentrate on dealing with the word "science". 116 00:19:02,295 --> 00:19:05,305 I believe the word "science" has been hijacked by secularists. 117 00:19:05,771 --> 00:19:06,671 Now, what is science? 118 00:19:06,935 --> 00:19:09,899 Well, the origin of the word comes from the Classical Latin "scientia", 119 00:19:09,950 --> 00:19:12,550 which means know;. And if you look up a dictionary, 120 00:19:12,565 --> 00:19:14,993 it'll say science means "the state of knowing, knowledge". 121 00:19:15,332 --> 00:19:17,164 But there's different types of knowledge and I believe 122 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:18,531 this is where the confusion lies. 123 00:19:19,166 --> 00:19:21,921 There's experimental or observational sciences, as we call it. 124 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,432 That's using the scientific method, observation, 125 00:19:24,734 --> 00:19:27,427 measurement, experiment, testing. That's what produces 126 00:19:27,764 --> 00:19:30,097 our technology, computers, spacecraft, jet planes, 127 00:19:30,430 --> 00:19:35,421 smoke detectors, looking at DNA, antibiotics, medicines and vaccines. 128 00:19:36,199 --> 00:19:39,133 You see, all scientists, whether Creationists or Evolutionists, 129 00:19:39,537 --> 00:19:43,698 actually have the same observational or experimental science. 130 00:19:44,297 --> 00:19:46,399 And it doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist, 131 00:19:46,633 --> 00:19:47,628 you can be a great scientist. 132 00:19:47,846 --> 00:19:49,865 For instance, here's an atheist, who is a great scientist-- 133 00:19:50,098 --> 00:19:52,831 Craig Venter, one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome. 134 00:19:53,131 --> 00:19:57,497 Or Dr. Raymond Damadian. He is a man who invented 135 00:19:57,732 --> 00:20:00,728 the MRI scan and revolutionized medicine. He's a biblical Creationist. 136 00:20:01,067 --> 00:20:03,963 But I want us to also understand molecules-to-man 137 00:20:04,165 --> 00:20:07,198 evolution belief has nothing to do with developing technology. 138 00:20:07,698 --> 00:20:11,332 You see, when we're talking about origins, we're talking about the past. 139 00:20:11,633 --> 00:20:13,866 We're talking about our origins. We weren't there. 140 00:20:14,333 --> 00:20:16,896 You can't observe that, whether it's molecules-to-man evolution, 141 00:20:17,135 --> 00:20:18,597 or whether it's a creation account. 142 00:20:19,232 --> 00:20:20,330 I mean, you're talking about the past. 143 00:20:20,598 --> 00:20:23,363 We'd like to call that Origins or Historical Science, 144 00:20:23,665 --> 00:20:25,434 knowledge concerning the past. Here at the Creation Museum, 145 00:20:25,733 --> 00:20:29,700 we make no apology about the fact that our Origins or Historical science 146 00:20:29,932 --> 00:20:33,298 actually is based upon the biblical account of origins. 147 00:20:33,998 --> 00:20:36,728 Now, when you research science textbooks being used 148 00:20:36,933 --> 00:20:38,833 in public schools, what we found is this: 149 00:20:39,199 --> 00:20:42,000 by and large, the Origins or Historical Science 150 00:20:42,299 --> 00:20:46,033 is based upon man's ideas about the past--for instance, the ideas of Darwin. 151 00:20:46,399 --> 00:20:49,194 And our research has found that public school textbooks 152 00:20:49,365 --> 00:20:53,434 are using the same word "science" for Observational Science 153 00:20:53,637 --> 00:20:56,715 and Historical Science. They arbitrarily define science 154 00:20:56,915 --> 00:20:59,298 as naturalism and outlaw the supernatural. 155 00:20:59,869 --> 00:21:02,094 They present molecules-to-man evolution as fact. 156 00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:04,231 They are imposing, I believe, the religion 157 00:21:04,431 --> 00:21:06,435 of naturalism or atheism on generations of students. 158 00:21:07,067 --> 00:21:10,165 You see, I assert that the word "science" has been hijacked 159 00:21:10,333 --> 00:21:13,630 by secularists in teaching evolution to force the religion 160 00:21:13,630 --> 00:21:15,692 of naturalism on generations of kids. 161 00:21:16,164 --> 00:21:18,104 Secular evolutionists teach that all life developed 162 00:21:18,298 --> 00:21:20,568 by natural processes from some primordial form. 163 00:21:20,862 --> 00:21:24,064 That man is just an evolved animal, which has great bearing 164 00:21:24,265 --> 00:21:25,366 on how we view life and death. 165 00:21:25,867 --> 00:21:28,699 For instance, as Bill states, "It's very hard to accept, 166 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,799 for many of us, that when you die, it's over."; 167 00:21:32,766 --> 00:21:35,131 But, you see, the Bible gives a totally different account of origins, 168 00:21:35,299 --> 00:21:38,264 of who we are, where we came from, the meaning of life, and our future. 169 00:21:38,765 --> 00:21:41,830 That through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin. 170 00:21:42,168 --> 00:21:45,099 But that God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son. 171 00:21:45,667 --> 00:21:48,800 Whoever believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life. 172 00:21:49,527 --> 00:21:53,561 So is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era? 173 00:21:53,963 --> 00:21:56,009 I say the creation/evolution debate is a conflict 174 00:21:56,561 --> 00:21:59,665 between two philosophical worldviews based on two different accounts 175 00:22:00,031 --> 00:22:02,470 of origins or science beliefs and creation 176 00:22:02,832 --> 00:22:05,900 is the only viable model of historical science confirmed 177 00:22:06,104 --> 00:22:09,333 by observational science in today's modern scientific era. 178 00:22:10,933 --> 00:22:14,547 And that is time. I had the unenviable job of being the time-keeper here. 179 00:22:15,066 --> 00:22:17,267 So I'm like the referee in football that you don't like, 180 00:22:17,830 --> 00:22:20,400 but I will periodically, if either one of our debaters 181 00:22:20,698 --> 00:22:24,464 runs over on anything, I will stop them in the name of keeping it fair for all. 182 00:22:24,864 --> 00:22:27,133 Uh, Mr. Ham, thank you for your comments. Now it's Mr. Nye's 183 00:22:27,464 --> 00:22:29,533 turn for a five minute opening statement. Mr. Nye. 184 00:22:30,229 --> 00:22:32,200 Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. 185 00:22:32,432 --> 00:22:36,200 I very much appreciate you including me in your, uh, facility here. 186 00:22:36,467 --> 00:22:40,233 Now, looking around the room I think I see just one bow tie. 187 00:22:40,531 --> 00:22:43,894 Is that right? Just one. And I'm telling you, once you try it-- 188 00:22:44,035 --> 00:22:47,466 oh, there's yes, two! That's great. I started wearing bow ties 189 00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:50,063 when I was young, in high school. 190 00:22:50,264 --> 00:22:52,399 My father showed me how. His father showed him. 191 00:22:53,263 --> 00:22:58,397 And there's a story associated with this, which I find remarkable. 192 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,834 My grandfather was in the rotary, and he attended 193 00:23:03,985 --> 00:23:07,095 a convention in Philadelphia, and even in those days, 194 00:23:07,329 --> 00:23:10,597 at the turn of the last century, people rented tuxedos. 195 00:23:10,897 --> 00:23:14,532 And the tuxedo came with a bow tie--untied bow tie. 196 00:23:15,210 --> 00:23:16,656 So he didn't know how to tie it. 197 00:23:16,867 --> 00:23:20,133 So...wasn't sure what to do, but he just took a chance. 198 00:23:20,401 --> 00:23:23,762 He went to the hotel room next door, knocked on the door, 199 00:23:23,999 --> 00:23:26,098 "Excuse me? Can you help me tie my tie?" 200 00:23:26,365 --> 00:23:29,032 And the guy said, "Sure. Lie down on the bed." 201 00:23:31,186 --> 00:23:35,353 So...my grandfather wanted to have the tie on, 202 00:23:35,736 --> 00:23:38,661 wasn't sure what he was getting into, so he's said 203 00:23:38,832 --> 00:23:42,566 to have lain on the bed and the guy tied a perfect bow tie knot and, 204 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:44,466 quite reasonably, my grandfather said, 205 00:23:44,934 --> 00:23:48,100 "Thank you. Why'd I have to lie down on the bed?" 206 00:23:48,399 --> 00:23:49,600 The guy said, "I'm an undertaker." 207 00:23:50,070 --> 00:23:51,600 (audience laughs) 208 00:23:52,263 --> 00:23:54,233 "It's the only way I know how to do it." 209 00:23:54,233 --> 00:23:57,829 Now that story was presented to me as a true story. 210 00:23:58,802 --> 00:24:01,801 It may or may not be. But it gives you something to think about. 211 00:24:02,133 --> 00:24:04,233 And it's certainly something to remember. 212 00:24:05,070 --> 00:24:07,265 So, here tonight, we're gonna have two stories 213 00:24:07,772 --> 00:24:13,100 and we can compare Mr. Ham's story to the story 214 00:24:13,432 --> 00:24:16,207 from what I will call the outside, from mainstream science. 215 00:24:16,668 --> 00:24:20,804 The question tonight is: Does Ken Ham's Creation Model hold up? 216 00:24:21,465 --> 00:24:22,564 Is it "viable"? 217 00:24:23,464 --> 00:24:26,237 So let me ask you all: what would you be doing if you weren't here tonight? 218 00:24:27,306 --> 00:24:29,868 That's right, you'd be home watching CSI. 219 00:24:30,812 --> 00:24:35,382 CSI Petersburg. Is that coming--I think it's coming. 220 00:24:36,977 --> 00:24:41,065 And on CSI, there is no distinction made between 221 00:24:41,297 --> 00:24:43,666 historical science and observational science. 222 00:24:43,932 --> 00:24:46,834 These are constructs unique to Mr. Ham. 223 00:24:47,199 --> 00:24:50,006 We don't normally have these anywhere in the world except here. 224 00:24:50,699 --> 00:24:53,833 Natural laws that applied in the past apply now. 225 00:24:54,199 --> 00:24:56,700 That's why they're natural laws. That's why we embrace them. 226 00:24:57,133 --> 00:24:59,097 That's how we made all these discoveries 227 00:24:59,265 --> 00:25:01,095 that enabled all this remarkable technology. 228 00:25:02,039 --> 00:25:05,365 So CSI is a fictional show, but it's based absolutely 229 00:25:05,471 --> 00:25:07,066 on real people doing real work. 230 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,800 When you go to a crime scene and find evidence, 231 00:25:10,065 --> 00:25:13,264 you have clues about the past. And you trust those clues 232 00:25:13,534 --> 00:25:16,479 and you embrace them and you move forward to convict somebody. 233 00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:20,233 Mr. Ham and his followers have this remarkable view 234 00:25:20,900 --> 00:25:27,024 of a worldwide flood that somehow influenced everything that we observe in nature. 235 00:25:27,239 --> 00:25:32,628 A 500 foot wooden boat, eight zookeepers for 14,000 individual animals, 236 00:25:32,866 --> 00:25:37,065 every land plant in the world underwater for a full year? 237 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,098 I ask us all: is that really reasonable? 238 00:25:41,003 --> 00:25:43,567 You'll hear a lot about the Grand Canyon, I imagine, also, 239 00:25:43,783 --> 00:25:46,565 which is a remarkable place and it has fossils. 240 00:25:47,195 --> 00:25:50,800 And the fossils in the Grand Canyon are found in layers. 241 00:25:51,498 --> 00:25:54,004 There's not a single place in the Grand Canyon 242 00:25:54,167 --> 00:25:56,763 where the fossils of one type of animal cross over 243 00:25:57,131 --> 00:25:59,305 into the fossils of another. In other words, 244 00:25:59,765 --> 00:26:02,600 when there was a big flood on the earth, you would expect 245 00:26:02,798 --> 00:26:05,833 drowning animals to swim up to a higher level. 246 00:26:06,464 --> 00:26:09,399 Not any one of them did. Not a single one. 247 00:26:09,667 --> 00:26:13,367 If you could find evidence of that, my friends, you could change the world. 248 00:26:13,934 --> 00:26:16,699 Now, I just wanna remind us all: 249 00:26:17,862 --> 00:26:22,332 there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious, 250 00:26:23,098 --> 00:26:27,204 who get enriched, who have a wonderful sense of community from their religion. 251 00:26:27,731 --> 00:26:31,367 They worship together, they eat together, they live 252 00:26:31,555 --> 00:26:34,468 in their communities and enjoy each others company. Billions of people. 253 00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:39,167 But these same people do not embrace the extraordinary view 254 00:26:39,467 --> 00:26:43,919 that the earth is somehow only 6,000 years old. That is unique. 255 00:26:44,249 --> 00:26:48,827 And here's my concern: what keeps the United States ahead, 256 00:26:49,432 --> 00:26:53,335 what makes the United States a world leader, is our technology, 257 00:26:53,934 --> 00:26:58,799 our new ideas, our innovations. If we continue to eschew science, 258 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,931 eschew the process and try to divide science 259 00:27:03,057 --> 00:27:05,831 into observational science and historic science, 260 00:27:06,466 --> 00:27:09,468 we are not gonna move forward. We will not embrace natural laws. 261 00:27:09,632 --> 00:27:14,801 We will not make discoveries. We will not invent and innovate and stay ahead. 262 00:27:15,695 --> 00:27:19,997 So if you ask me if Ken Ham's Creation model is viable, I say no. 263 00:27:20,595 --> 00:27:24,532 It is absolutely not viable. So stay with us over the next period 264 00:27:25,098 --> 00:27:28,949 and you can compare my evidence to his. Thank you all very much. 265 00:27:29,065 --> 00:27:32,409 (audience applauds) 266 00:27:32,409 --> 00:27:33,245 (moderator) All right. 267 00:27:33,245 --> 00:27:35,227 Very nice start by both of our debaters here. 268 00:27:35,227 --> 00:27:38,207 And now each of one will offer a thirty minute, 269 00:27:38,207 --> 00:27:43,768 illustrated presentation to fully offer their case for us to consider. 270 00:27:43,768 --> 00:27:44,740 Mr. Ham, you're up. 271 00:27:57,624 --> 00:28:00,200 Well, the debate topic was "Is creation a viable model 272 00:28:00,798 --> 00:28:03,100 of origins in today's modern scientific era?" 273 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,468 And I made the statement at the end of my opening statement: 274 00:28:07,063 --> 00:28:09,566 creation is the only viable model of historical science 275 00:28:09,967 --> 00:28:13,335 confirmed by observational science in today's modern scientific era. 276 00:28:13,636 --> 00:28:16,968 And I said what we need to be doing is actually defining 277 00:28:17,204 --> 00:28:22,433 our terms and, particularly three terms: science, creation, and evolution. 278 00:28:22,999 --> 00:28:25,233 Now, I discussed the meaning of the word "science" 279 00:28:25,434 --> 00:28:28,700 and what is meant by experimental and observational science briefly. 280 00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:30,733 And that both Creationists and Evolutionists 281 00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:35,801 can be great scientists, for instance. I mentioned Craig Venter, a biologist. 282 00:28:36,102 --> 00:28:37,731 He's an atheist and he's a great scientist. 283 00:28:38,264 --> 00:28:41,167 He was one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome. 284 00:28:41,634 --> 00:28:46,832 I also mentioned Dr. Raymond Damadian, who actually invented the MRI scanner. 285 00:28:47,202 --> 00:28:52,265 I want you to meet a biblical creationist who is a scientist and an inventor. 286 00:28:52,798 --> 00:28:54,932 Hi, my name is Dr. Raymond Damadian. 287 00:28:55,399 --> 00:28:58,112 I am a Young Earth Creation Scientist and believe that God 288 00:28:58,398 --> 00:29:01,105 created the world in six 24 hour days, 289 00:29:01,466 --> 00:29:03,734 just as recorded in the book of Genesis. 290 00:29:04,168 --> 00:29:07,607 By God's grace and the devoted prayers of my Godly mother-in-law, 291 00:29:07,932 --> 00:29:11,065 I invented the MRI scanner in 1969. 292 00:29:11,496 --> 00:29:14,714 The idea that scientists who believe the earth 293 00:29:14,714 --> 00:29:18,984 is 6,000 years old cannot do real science is simply wrong. 294 00:29:20,099 --> 00:29:21,298 Well, he's most adamant about that. 295 00:29:21,798 --> 00:29:24,676 And, actually, he revolutionized medicine! He's a biblical Creationist. 296 00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:29,434 And I encourage children to follow people like that, make them their heroes. 297 00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:33,200 Let me introduce you to another biblical Creation Scientist. 298 00:29:33,597 --> 00:29:34,997 My name is Danny Faulkner. 299 00:29:35,433 --> 00:29:38,497 I received my PhD in astronomy from Indiana University. 300 00:29:39,233 --> 00:29:41,534 For 26 and a half years, I was a professor 301 00:29:41,766 --> 00:29:43,998 at the University of South Carolina, Lancaster, 302 00:29:44,296 --> 00:29:47,366 where I hold the rank of distinguished professor emeritus. 303 00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:51,667 Upon my retirement from the university in January of 2013, 304 00:29:51,688 --> 00:29:52,657 I joined the research staff at Answers in Genesis. I'm a stellar astronomer. 305 00:29:55,498 --> 00:30:00,867 That means my primary interests is stars, but I'm particularly 306 00:30:00,867 --> 00:30:03,305 interested in the study of eclipsing binary stars. 307 00:30:03,305 --> 00:30:06,174 And I've published many articles in the astronomy literature, 308 00:30:06,174 --> 00:30:07,898 places such as the the Astrophysical Journal, 309 00:30:07,898 --> 00:30:11,367 the Astronomical Journal, and the Observatory. 310 00:30:11,367 --> 00:30:17,500 There is nothing in observational astronomy that contradicts a recent creation. 311 00:30:17,500 --> 00:30:20,066 I also mentioned Dr. Stuart Burgess, 312 00:30:20,066 --> 00:30:24,730 professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in England. 313 00:30:24,730 --> 00:30:29,162 Now he invented and designed a double-action worm gear set 314 00:30:29,162 --> 00:30:33,634 for the three hinges of the robotic arm on a very expensive satellite. 315 00:30:33,634 --> 00:30:36,367 And if that had not worked, if that gear set had not worked, 316 00:30:36,367 --> 00:30:38,998 that whole satellite would've been useless. 317 00:30:38,998 --> 00:30:43,900 Yet, Dr. Burgess is a biblical Creationist. He believes, just as I believe. 318 00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:46,704 Now, think about this for a moment. 319 00:30:46,704 --> 00:30:47,734 A scientist like Dr. Burgess, 320 00:30:47,734 --> 00:30:51,200 who believe in Creation, just as I do, 321 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,697 a small minority in this scientific world. 322 00:30:52,697 --> 00:30:55,874 But let's see what he says about scientists believing in Creation. 323 00:30:55,874 --> 00:30:59,278 I find that many of my colleagues in academia are sympathetic 324 00:30:59,278 --> 00:31:03,668 to the creationist viewpoint, including biologists. 325 00:31:03,668 --> 00:31:06,400 However, there are often afraid to speak out because of the criticisms 326 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,739 they would get from the media and atheists lobby. 327 00:31:09,739 --> 00:31:11,935 Now, I agree. That's a real problem today. 328 00:31:11,935 --> 00:31:15,331 We need to have freedom to be able to speak on these topics. 329 00:31:15,331 --> 00:31:18,598 You know, I just want to say, by the way, that Creationists, 330 00:31:18,598 --> 00:31:18,848 non-Christian scientists, I should say, 331 00:31:18,848 --> 00:31:24,065 non-Christian scientists are really borrowing 332 00:31:24,065 --> 00:31:27,134 from the Christian worldview anyway to carry out their experimental, 333 00:31:27,134 --> 00:31:30,203 observational science. Think about it. When they're doing 334 00:31:30,203 --> 00:31:32,930 observational science, using the scientific method, 335 00:31:32,930 --> 00:31:34,465 they have to assume the laws of logic, 336 00:31:34,465 --> 00:31:36,201 they have to assume the laws of nature, 337 00:31:36,201 --> 00:31:38,402 they have to assume the uniformity of nature. 338 00:31:38,402 --> 00:31:41,333 I mean, think about it. If the universe came about by natural processes, 339 00:31:41,333 --> 00:31:44,433 where'd the laws of logic come from? Did they just pop into existence? 340 00:31:44,433 --> 00:31:47,331 Are we in a stage now where we only have half-logic? 341 00:31:47,331 --> 00:31:50,099 So, you see, I have a question for Bill Nye. 342 00:31:50,099 --> 00:31:53,200 How do you account for the laws of logic and the laws of nature 343 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:58,003 from a naturalistic worldview that excludes the existence of God? 344 00:31:58,003 --> 00:32:00,967 Now, in my opening statement I also discussed 345 00:32:00,967 --> 00:32:05,000 a different type of science or knowledge, origins or historical science. 346 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,497 See again, there's a confusion here. There's a misunderstanding here. 347 00:32:07,497 --> 00:32:13,566 People, by and large, have not been taught to look at 348 00:32:13,566 --> 00:32:17,697 what you believe about the past as different to what you're observing in the present. 349 00:32:17,697 --> 00:32:21,243 You don't observe the past directly. 350 00:32:21,243 --> 00:32:24,932 Even when you think about the creation account. 351 00:32:24,932 --> 00:32:26,834 I mean, we can't observe God creating. 352 00:32:26,834 --> 00:32:29,732 We can't observe the creation of Adam and Eve. We admit that. 353 00:32:29,732 --> 00:32:32,210 We're willing to admit our beliefs about the past. 354 00:32:32,210 --> 00:32:35,600 But, see, what you see in the present is very different. 355 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,300 Even some public school textbooks actually sort of acknowledge 356 00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:42,397 the difference between historical and observational science. 357 00:32:42,397 --> 00:32:45,832 Here is an Earth Science textbook that's used in public schools. 358 00:32:45,832 --> 00:32:50,600 And we read this. In contrast to physical geology, 359 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,030 the aim of historical geology is to understand Earth's long history. 360 00:32:53,498 --> 00:32:55,800 Then they make this statement. 361 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,765 Historical geology--so we're talking historical science-- 362 00:32:57,765 --> 00:33:00,900 tries to establish a timeline of the vast number of physical 363 00:33:00,900 --> 00:33:03,300 and biological changes that have occurred in the past. 364 00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:06,867 We study physical geology before historical geology 365 00:33:06,867 --> 00:33:11,566 because we first must understand how Earth works before we try to unravel its past. 366 00:33:11,566 --> 00:33:14,467 In other words, we observe things in the present and then, 367 00:33:14,467 --> 00:33:18,099 okay, we're assuming that that's always happened in the past 368 00:33:18,099 --> 00:33:20,441 and we're gonna try and figure out how this happened. 369 00:33:20,441 --> 00:33:22,234 See, there is a difference between what you observe 370 00:33:22,234 --> 00:33:27,533 and what happened in the past. Let me illustrate it this way: 371 00:33:27,533 --> 00:33:29,336 If Bill Nye and I went to the Grand Canyon, 372 00:33:29,336 --> 00:33:32,654 we could agree that that's a Coconino sandstone in the Hermit shale. 373 00:33:32,654 --> 00:33:35,165 There's the boundary. They're sitting one on top of the other. 374 00:33:35,165 --> 00:33:38,767 We could agree on that. But you know what we would disagree on? 375 00:33:38,767 --> 00:33:41,531 I mean, we could even analyse the minerals and agree on that. 376 00:33:41,531 --> 00:33:44,063 But we would disagree on how long it took to get there. 377 00:33:44,063 --> 00:33:47,565 But see, none of us saw the sandstone or the shale being laid down. 378 00:33:47,565 --> 00:33:49,730 There's a supposed 10 million year gap there. 379 00:33:49,730 --> 00:33:51,000 But I don't see a gap. 380 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,730 But that might be different to what Bill Nye would see. 381 00:33:53,730 --> 00:33:57,530 But there's a difference between what you actually observe 382 00:33:57,530 --> 00:34:00,829 directly and then your interpretation regarding the past. 383 00:34:00,829 --> 00:34:04,711 When I was at the Goddard Space Center a number of years ago 384 00:34:04,711 --> 00:34:06,966 I met Creationists and Evolutionists who were 385 00:34:06,966 --> 00:34:08,533 both working on the Hubble telescope. 386 00:34:08,533 --> 00:34:10,603 They agreed on how to build the Hubble telescope. 387 00:34:10,603 --> 00:34:13,333 You know what they disagreed on? Well, they disagreed on 388 00:34:13,333 --> 00:34:16,171 how to interpret the data the telescope obtained 389 00:34:16,171 --> 00:34:18,455 in regard to the age of the universe. 390 00:34:18,455 --> 00:34:21,297 And, you know, we could on and talk about lots 391 00:34:21,297 --> 00:34:23,140 of other similar sorts of things. For instance, 392 00:34:23,140 --> 00:34:26,548 I've heard Bill Nye talk about how a smoke detector works, 393 00:34:26,548 --> 00:34:30,794 using the radioactive element Americium. And, you know what? 394 00:34:30,794 --> 00:34:32,933 I totally agree with him on that. We agree how it works. 395 00:34:32,933 --> 00:34:35,933 We agree how radioactivity enables that to work. 396 00:34:35,933 --> 00:34:37,696 But if you're then gonna use radioactive elements 397 00:34:37,696 --> 00:34:39,599 and talk about the age of the Earth, 398 00:34:39,599 --> 00:34:41,564 you've got a problem cause you weren't there. 399 00:34:41,564 --> 00:34:44,798 We gotta understand parent elements, daughter elements and so on. 400 00:34:44,798 --> 00:34:47,764 We could agree whether you're Creationist or Evolutionist 401 00:34:47,764 --> 00:34:50,366 on the technology to put the rover on Mars, but we're gonna 402 00:34:50,366 --> 00:34:54,602 disagree on how to interpret the origin of Mars. 403 00:34:54,602 --> 00:34:56,632 I mean, there are some people that believed it 404 00:34:56,632 --> 00:34:59,130 was even a global flood on Mars, and there's no liquid water on Mars. 405 00:34:59,130 --> 00:35:03,864 We're gonna disagree maybe on our interpretation of origins 406 00:35:03,864 --> 00:35:06,962 and you can't prove either way because, not from 407 00:35:06,962 --> 00:35:11,102 an observational science perspective, because we've only got the present. 408 00:35:11,102 --> 00:35:16,707 Creationists and Evolutionists both work on medicines and vaccines. 409 00:35:16,707 --> 00:35:19,365 You see? It doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist, 410 00:35:19,365 --> 00:35:23,170 all scientists have the same experimental observational science. 411 00:35:23,170 --> 00:35:26,101 So I have a question for Bill Nye: Can you name one piece 412 00:35:26,101 --> 00:35:28,764 of technology that could only have been developed 413 00:35:28,764 --> 00:35:32,929 starting with the belief in molecules-to-man evolution? 414 00:35:32,929 --> 00:35:35,033 Now, here's another important fact. 415 00:35:35,033 --> 00:35:38,898 Creationists and Evolutionists all have the same evidence. 416 00:35:38,898 --> 00:35:42,933 Bill Nye and I have the same Grand Canyon. We don't disagree on that. 417 00:35:42,933 --> 00:35:46,333 We all have the same fish fossils. This is one from the Creation Museum. 418 00:35:46,333 --> 00:35:50,299 The same dinosaur skeleton, the same animals, the same humans, 419 00:35:50,299 --> 00:35:54,671 the same DNA, the same radioactive decay elements that we see. 420 00:35:54,671 --> 00:35:59,933 We have the same universe...actually, we all have the same evidences. 421 00:35:59,933 --> 00:36:01,866 It's not the evidences that are different. 422 00:36:01,866 --> 00:36:06,234 It's a battle over the same evidence in regard to how we interpret the past. 423 00:36:06,234 --> 00:36:07,566 And you know why that is? 424 00:36:07,566 --> 00:36:10,263 Cause it's really a battle over worldviews and starting points. 425 00:36:10,263 --> 00:36:12,000 It's a battle over philosophical worldviews 426 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,862 and starting points, but the same evidence. Now, I admit, 427 00:36:14,862 --> 00:36:17,798 my starting point is that God is the ultimate authority. 428 00:36:17,798 --> 00:36:21,731 But if someone doesn't accept that, then man has to be the ultimate authority. 429 00:36:21,731 --> 00:36:24,399 And that's really the difference when it comes down to it. 430 00:36:24,399 --> 00:36:26,733 You see, I've been emphasizing the difference 431 00:36:26,733 --> 00:36:29,537 between historical origin science, knowledge about 432 00:36:29,537 --> 00:36:30,927 the past when you weren't there, 433 00:36:30,927 --> 00:36:33,362 and we need to understand that we weren't there. 434 00:36:33,362 --> 00:36:36,299 Or experimental observational science, using 435 00:36:36,299 --> 00:36:38,501 your five senses in the present, the scientific method, 436 00:36:38,501 --> 00:36:41,133 what you can directly observe, test, repeat. 437 00:36:41,133 --> 00:36:44,328 There's a big difference between those two. 438 00:36:44,328 --> 00:36:46,797 And that's not what's being taught in our public schools 439 00:36:46,797 --> 00:36:48,600 and that's why kids aren't being taught to think 440 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,137 critically and correctly about the origins issue. 441 00:36:52,137 --> 00:36:54,031 But you know, it's also important to understand, 442 00:36:54,031 --> 00:36:56,366 when talking about Creation and Evolution, both involve 443 00:36:56,366 --> 00:36:59,705 historical science and observational science. 444 00:36:59,705 --> 00:37:02,365 You see, the role of observational science is this: 445 00:37:02,365 --> 00:37:03,251 it can be used to confirm or otherwise 446 00:37:04,862 --> 00:37:08,232 one's historical science based on one's starting point. 447 00:37:08,232 --> 00:37:11,000 Now, when you think about the debate topic and what I have 448 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,399 learned concerning creation, if our origins 449 00:37:14,399 --> 00:37:17,999 or historical science based on the bible, the bible's account 450 00:37:17,999 --> 00:37:19,131 of origins is true, then there should be predictions 451 00:37:21,432 --> 00:37:25,233 from this that we can test, using observational science. 452 00:37:25,233 --> 00:37:27,176 And there are. For instance, based on the bible, 453 00:37:27,176 --> 00:37:30,100 we'd expect to find evidence concerning an intelligence, 454 00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:32,534 confirming an intelligence produced life. 455 00:37:32,534 --> 00:37:35,137 We'd expect to find evidence confirming after their kind. 456 00:37:35,137 --> 00:37:38,139 The bible says God made kinds of animals and plants 457 00:37:38,139 --> 00:37:41,201 after their kind, implying each kind produces it's own, 458 00:37:41,201 --> 00:37:43,500 not that one kind changes into another. 459 00:37:43,500 --> 00:37:47,533 You'd expect to find evidence confirming a global flood of Noah's day. 460 00:37:47,533 --> 00:37:50,830 Evidence confirming one race of humans because we 461 00:37:50,830 --> 00:37:53,833 all go back to Adam and Eve, biologically, that would mean there's one race. 462 00:37:53,833 --> 00:37:56,798 Evidence confirming the Tower of Babel, that God gave different languages. 463 00:37:56,798 --> 00:38:00,433 Evidence confirming a young universe. 464 00:38:00,433 --> 00:38:04,074 Now, I can't go through all of those, but a couple of them we'll look at briefly. 465 00:38:04,074 --> 00:38:07,668 After their kind, evidence confirming that-- 466 00:38:07,668 --> 00:38:12,865 in the Creation Museum, we have a display featuring replicas, 467 00:38:12,865 --> 00:38:15,931 actually, of Darwin's finches. They're called Darwin's finches. 468 00:38:15,931 --> 00:38:18,833 Darwin collected finches from the Galapagos 469 00:38:18,833 --> 00:38:21,863 and took them back to England and we see the different species, 470 00:38:21,863 --> 00:38:24,133 the different beak sizes here. And, you know, 471 00:38:24,133 --> 00:38:27,171 from the specimens Darwin obtained in the Galapagos, 472 00:38:27,171 --> 00:38:31,295 he actually pondered these things and how do you explain this. 473 00:38:31,295 --> 00:38:36,698 And in his notes, actually, he came up with this diagram here, a tree. 474 00:38:36,698 --> 00:38:42,298 And he actually said, "I think." So he was talking about 475 00:38:42,298 --> 00:38:46,566 different species and maybe those species came from some common ancestor, 476 00:38:46,566 --> 00:38:49,434 but, actually, when it comes to finches, we actually would agree, 477 00:38:49,434 --> 00:38:54,332 as Creationists, that different finch species came from a common ancestor, but a finch. 478 00:38:54,332 --> 00:38:57,331 That's what they would have to come from. 479 00:38:57,331 --> 00:39:01,131 And see, Darwin wasn't just thinking about species. 480 00:39:01,131 --> 00:39:04,066 Darwin had a much bigger picture in mind. 481 00:39:04,966 --> 00:39:07,586 When you look at the Origins of Species and read that book, 482 00:39:07,586 --> 00:39:10,904 you'll find he made this statement: from such low and intermediate form, 483 00:39:10,904 --> 00:39:13,065 both animals and plants may have been developed; 484 00:39:13,065 --> 00:39:15,965 and, if we admit this, we must likewise admit that 485 00:39:15,965 --> 00:39:18,965 all organic beings which have ever lived on this Earth 486 00:39:18,965 --> 00:39:22,285 may be descended from some one primordial form. 487 00:39:22,285 --> 00:39:24,367 So he had in mind what we today know as an evolutionary tree of life, 488 00:39:25,533 --> 00:39:31,852 that all life has arisen from some primordial form. 489 00:39:31,852 --> 00:39:35,287 Now, when you consider the classifications system, 490 00:39:35,287 --> 00:39:37,867 kingdom phylum class or the family genus species, 491 00:39:37,867 --> 00:39:41,698 we would say, as Creationists, we have many creation scientists 492 00:39:41,698 --> 00:39:43,598 that research this and, for lots of reasons, 493 00:39:43,598 --> 00:39:47,103 I would say, the kind in Genesis 1 is really more at 494 00:39:47,103 --> 00:39:50,767 the family level of classification. For instance, there's one dog kind. 495 00:39:50,767 --> 00:39:53,402 There's one cat kind. Even though you have different 496 00:39:53,402 --> 00:39:55,686 generative species, that would mean, by the way, 497 00:39:55,686 --> 00:39:57,800 you didn't need anywhere near the number of animals 498 00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,218 on the ark as people think. 499 00:39:59,218 --> 00:40:01,033 You wouldn't need all the species of dogs, just two. 500 00:40:01,033 --> 00:40:02,898 Not all the species of cats--just two. 501 00:40:02,898 --> 00:40:06,599 And, you see, based on the biblical account there in Genesis One, 502 00:40:06,599 --> 00:40:10,352 Creationists have drawn up what they believe is a creation origin. 503 00:40:10,352 --> 00:40:13,218 In other words, they're saying, "Look. There's great variation 504 00:40:13,218 --> 00:40:16,252 in the genetics of dogs and finches and so on." 505 00:40:16,252 --> 00:40:19,367 And so, over time, particularly after Noah's flood, 506 00:40:19,367 --> 00:40:21,598 you'd expect if there were two dogs, for instance, 507 00:40:21,598 --> 00:40:23,766 you could end up with different species of dogs because 508 00:40:23,766 --> 00:40:28,949 there's an incredible amount of variability in the genes of any creature. 509 00:40:28,949 --> 00:40:33,499 And so you'd expect these different species up here, but there's limits. 510 00:40:33,499 --> 00:40:36,433 Dogs will always be dogs, finches will always be finches. 511 00:40:36,433 --> 00:40:42,067 Now, as a Creationist, I maintain that observational science 512 00:40:42,067 --> 00:40:45,983 actually confirms this model, based on the bible. 513 00:40:45,983 --> 00:40:49,530 For instance, take dogs. Okay? 514 00:40:49,530 --> 00:40:53,833 In a scientific paper dated January 2014--that's this year-- 515 00:40:53,833 --> 00:40:58,067 scientists working at the University of California stated this: 516 00:40:58,067 --> 00:41:00,564 We provide several lines of evidence supporting 517 00:41:00,564 --> 00:41:04,503 a single origin for dogs, and disfavoring alternative models 518 00:41:04,503 --> 00:41:06,833 in which dog lineages arise separately 519 00:41:06,833 --> 00:41:09,598 from geographically distinct wolf populations. 520 00:41:09,598 --> 00:41:11,883 And they put this diagram in the paper. 521 00:41:11,883 --> 00:41:14,300 By the way, that diagram is very, very similar 522 00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:17,598 to this diagram that Creationists proposed based upon 523 00:41:17,598 --> 00:41:20,832 the creation account in Genesis. In other words, 524 00:41:20,832 --> 00:41:22,465 you have a common dog ancestor that gives rise 525 00:41:22,465 --> 00:41:25,364 to the different species of dogs, and that's exactly 526 00:41:25,364 --> 00:41:28,129 what we're saying here. Now, in the Creation Museum, 527 00:41:28,129 --> 00:41:31,300 we actually show the finches here and you see the finches 528 00:41:31,300 --> 00:41:34,767 with their different beaks, beside dogs skulls, different species of dogs. 529 00:41:34,767 --> 00:41:37,884 By the way, there's more variation in the dog skeleton 530 00:41:37,884 --> 00:41:41,063 here than there are in these finches. Yet, the dogs, 531 00:41:41,063 --> 00:41:42,931 wow, that's never used as an example of evolution, 532 00:41:42,931 --> 00:41:45,800 but the finches are, particularly in the public school textbooks. 533 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,099 Students are taught, "Ah! See the changes that are occurring here?" 534 00:41:49,099 --> 00:41:51,299 And here's another problem that we've got. 535 00:41:51,299 --> 00:41:55,906 Not only has the word "science" been hijacked by secularists, 536 00:41:55,906 --> 00:41:59,851 I believe the word "evolution" has been hijacked by secularists. 537 00:41:59,851 --> 00:42:03,963 The word "evolution" has been hijacked using what I call a bait and switch. 538 00:42:03,963 --> 00:42:05,950 Let me explain to you. 539 00:42:05,950 --> 00:42:09,830 The word "evolution" is being used in public school textbooks, 540 00:42:09,830 --> 00:42:11,833 and we often see it in documentaries and so on, 541 00:42:11,833 --> 00:42:15,100 is used for observable changes that we would agree with, 542 00:42:15,100 --> 00:42:19,791 and then used for unobservable changes, such as molecules-to-man. 543 00:42:19,791 --> 00:42:21,757 Let me explain to you what's really going on because 544 00:42:21,757 --> 00:42:23,565 I was a science teacher in the public schools 545 00:42:23,565 --> 00:42:25,965 and I know what the students were taught and I checked 546 00:42:25,965 --> 00:42:28,600 the public school textbooks anyway to know what they're taught. 547 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,030 See, students are taught today, look, there's all 548 00:42:31,030 --> 00:42:34,032 these different animals, plants, but they're all part 549 00:42:34,032 --> 00:42:37,297 of this great, big tree of life that goes back to some primordial form. 550 00:42:37,297 --> 00:42:39,470 And, look, we see changes. Changes in finches, 551 00:42:39,470 --> 00:42:42,655 changes in dogs and so on. Now, we don't deny the changes. 552 00:42:42,655 --> 00:42:45,499 You see that. You see different species of finches, different species of dogs. 553 00:42:45,499 --> 00:42:48,200 But then they put it all together in this evolutionary tree-- 554 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,387 but that's what you don't observe. You don't observe that. 555 00:42:50,387 --> 00:42:53,653 That's belief there. That's the historical science 556 00:42:53,653 --> 00:42:57,833 that I would say is wrong. But, you know, what you do observe, 557 00:42:57,833 --> 00:43:03,033 you do observe different species of dogs, different species of finches, 558 00:43:03,033 --> 00:43:06,563 but then there are limits. You don't see one kind changing into another. 559 00:43:06,563 --> 00:43:12,050 Actually, we're told that if you teach creation 560 00:43:12,050 --> 00:43:14,367 in the public schools as teaching religion, 561 00:43:14,367 --> 00:43:17,281 if you teach evolution as science, I'm gonna say, "Wait a minute!" 562 00:43:17,281 --> 00:43:21,332 Actually, the creation model here, based upon the Bible, 563 00:43:21,332 --> 00:43:23,967 observational science confirms this. This is what you're observe! 564 00:43:24,667 --> 00:43:26,182 You don't observe this tree. 565 00:43:26,182 --> 00:43:29,430 Actually, it's the public school textbooks that are teaching a belief, 566 00:43:29,430 --> 00:43:32,134 imposing it on students, and they need to be teaching them 567 00:43:32,134 --> 00:43:36,466 observational science to understand the reality of what's happening. 568 00:43:36,466 --> 00:43:40,589 Now, what we found is that public school textbooks present 569 00:43:40,589 --> 00:43:44,350 the evolutionary as science, but reject the creation as religion. 570 00:43:45,128 --> 00:43:47,600 But observational science confirms the creation orchard-- 571 00:43:48,130 --> 00:43:50,996 so public school textbooks are rejecting observational science 572 00:43:50,996 --> 00:43:53,698 and imposing a naturalistic religion on students. 573 00:43:54,233 --> 00:43:57,229 The word "evolution" has been hijacked using a bait and switch 574 00:43:57,627 --> 00:44:01,531 to indoctrinate students to accept evolutionary belief 575 00:44:01,796 --> 00:44:03,097 as observational science. 576 00:44:03,333 --> 00:44:05,830 Let me introduce you to another scientist, Richard Lenski, 577 00:44:06,298 --> 00:44:09,096 from Michigan State University. He's a great scientist, 578 00:44:09,231 --> 00:44:11,365 he's known for culturing e-coli in the lab... 579 00:44:12,133 --> 00:44:15,568 and he found there was some e-coli that actually seemed 580 00:44:15,865 --> 00:44:19,033 to develop the ability to grow on cistrate on substrate. 581 00:44:22,752 --> 00:44:26,969 But Richard Lenski is here, mentioned in this book, 582 00:44:27,989 --> 00:44:29,967 and it's called "Evolution in the Lab". 583 00:44:32,701 --> 00:44:36,067 So the ability to grow on citrate is said to be evolution. 584 00:44:36,067 --> 00:44:39,966 And there are those that say, "Hey! This is against the Creationist." 585 00:44:40,132 --> 00:44:42,698 For instance, Jerry Coin from University of Chicago says, 586 00:44:43,295 --> 00:44:45,763 "Lenski's experiment is also yet another poke in the eye 587 00:44:45,970 --> 00:44:47,326 for anti-evolutionists." 588 00:44:47,832 --> 00:44:51,063 He says, "The thing I like most is it says you can get 589 00:44:51,063 --> 00:44:53,495 these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events." 590 00:44:55,031 --> 00:44:58,029 But is it a poke in the eye for anti-evolutionists? 591 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,366 Is it really seeing complex traits evolving? 592 00:45:02,029 --> 00:45:06,232 What does it mean that some of these bacteria are able to grow on citrate? 593 00:45:06,732 --> 00:45:10,687 Let me introduce you to another biblical Creationist, who is a scientist. 594 00:45:11,566 --> 00:45:12,965 Hi, my name's Dr. Andrew Fabich. 595 00:45:13,295 --> 00:45:16,166 I got my PhD from University of Oklahoma in Microbiology. 596 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,133 I teach at Liberty University and I do research on e-coli in the intestine. 597 00:45:20,563 --> 00:45:25,565 I've published it in secular journals from the American Society for Microbiology, 598 00:45:26,163 --> 00:45:31,496 including infection immunity and applied environmental microbiology 599 00:45:31,698 --> 00:45:32,597 as well as several others. 600 00:45:32,799 --> 00:45:35,400 My work has been cited even in the past year in the journals Nature, 601 00:45:35,700 --> 00:45:38,067 Science Translational Medicine, Public Library of Science, 602 00:45:38,334 --> 00:45:41,998 Public Library of Science Genetics. It's cited regularly 603 00:45:42,167 --> 00:45:46,499 in those journals and while I was taught nothing but evolution, 604 00:45:46,732 --> 00:45:48,229 I don't accept that position. 605 00:45:48,499 --> 00:45:50,333 I do my research from a creation perspective. 606 00:45:50,997 --> 00:45:54,267 When I look at the evidence that people cite as e-coli, 607 00:45:54,667 --> 00:46:00,830 supposedly, evolving over 30 years, over 30,000 generations in the lab, 608 00:46:01,362 --> 00:46:04,597 and people say that it is now able to grow on citrate, 609 00:46:04,766 --> 00:46:06,366 I don't deny that it grows on citrate, 610 00:46:06,810 --> 00:46:08,493 but it's not any kind of new information. 611 00:46:09,531 --> 00:46:12,234 The information's already there and it's just a switch 612 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,763 that gets turned on and off and that's what they reported in there. 613 00:46:16,362 --> 00:46:17,598 There's nothing new. 614 00:46:18,067 --> 00:46:20,030 See, students need to be told what's really going on here. 615 00:46:20,532 --> 00:46:24,831 Certainly there's change, but it's not change necessary for molecules-to-man. 616 00:46:25,565 --> 00:46:27,234 Now, we could look at other predictions. 617 00:46:27,698 --> 00:46:29,766 What about evidence confirming one race? 618 00:46:30,099 --> 00:46:33,233 Well, when we look at the human population we see lots of differences. 619 00:46:33,345 --> 00:46:35,198 But based on Darwin's ideas of human evolution, 620 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,971 as presented in The Descent of Man, I mean, 621 00:46:38,497 --> 00:46:40,267 Darwin did teach in The Descent of Man there were 622 00:46:40,630 --> 00:46:41,963 lower races and higher races. 623 00:46:43,832 --> 00:46:44,833 Would you believe, that back in the 1900s, one of the most 624 00:46:45,229 --> 00:46:49,165 popular biology textbooks used in the public schools in America taught this: 625 00:46:49,796 --> 00:46:52,165 At the present time there exists upon Earth 626 00:46:52,566 --> 00:46:54,797 five races or varieties of man...and finally, 627 00:46:55,129 --> 00:46:58,347 the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented 628 00:46:58,499 --> 00:47:00,867 by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America. 629 00:47:01,233 --> 00:47:03,197 Can you imagine if that was in the public schools today? 630 00:47:03,665 --> 00:47:06,380 And, yet, that's what was taught, but it was based on 631 00:47:06,380 --> 00:47:10,966 Darwin's ideas that are wrong. You have a wrong foundation. 632 00:47:11,233 --> 00:47:12,460 You're gonna have a wrong worldview. 633 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,106 Now, had they started from the Bible, and from 634 00:47:16,532 --> 00:47:18,329 the creation account in the Bible, what does it teach? 635 00:47:18,590 --> 00:47:20,298 Well, we're all descendants of Adam and Eve. 636 00:47:20,697 --> 00:47:22,733 We go through the Tower of Babel, different languages, 637 00:47:23,231 --> 00:47:25,563 so different people groups formed distinct characteristics. 638 00:47:25,796 --> 00:47:27,800 But we'd expect, we'd say, you know what, 639 00:47:28,017 --> 00:47:30,963 that means there's biologically only one race of humans. 640 00:47:31,634 --> 00:47:32,963 Well, I mentioned Dr. Venter before. 641 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,000 And he was a researcher with the human genome project. 642 00:47:36,365 --> 00:47:39,175 And you'll remember, in the year 2000, this was headline news, 643 00:47:39,501 --> 00:47:41,964 and what we read was this: they had put together 644 00:47:42,264 --> 00:47:44,833 a draft of the entire sequence of the human genome 645 00:47:45,292 --> 00:47:48,899 and unanimously declared, there is only one race - the human race. 646 00:47:49,133 --> 00:47:50,535 Wow! Who would have guessed? 647 00:47:50,799 --> 00:47:52,493 But you see there we have observational science 648 00:47:52,794 --> 00:47:54,996 confirming the Creation account, 649 00:47:55,367 --> 00:47:58,665 not confirming at all Darwin's ideas. 650 00:47:58,932 --> 00:48:00,596 Now, there's much more that can be said 651 00:48:01,066 --> 00:48:02,297 on each of these topics. 652 00:48:02,759 --> 00:48:04,696 Obviously, you can't do that in a short time like this. 653 00:48:04,930 --> 00:48:06,497 And you could do a lot more research. 654 00:48:06,699 --> 00:48:09,466 I suggest you visit our website at Answers in Genesis 655 00:48:09,698 --> 00:48:11,265 for a lot more information. 656 00:48:11,533 --> 00:48:14,633 So, the debate topic: Is creation a viable model 657 00:48:14,832 --> 00:48:17,464 of origins in today's scientific era? 658 00:48:17,696 --> 00:48:19,870 I said, we need to define the terms, 659 00:48:20,163 --> 00:48:21,464 and particularly, the term science 660 00:48:21,664 --> 00:48:23,766 and the term evolution. And I believe we need 661 00:48:23,930 --> 00:48:25,601 to understand how they are being used to impose 662 00:48:25,765 --> 00:48:29,363 an anti-God religion on generations of unsuspecting students. 663 00:48:29,566 --> 00:48:32,098 You see, I keep emphasizing we do need to 664 00:48:32,321 --> 00:48:33,955 understand the difference between experimental or 665 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,362 observational science and historical science. 666 00:48:37,697 --> 00:48:38,797 And you know what? 667 00:48:38,933 --> 00:48:40,138 The secularists don't like me doing this 668 00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:41,832 because they don't want to admit 669 00:48:41,966 --> 00:48:44,030 that there's a belief aspect to what they're saying. 670 00:48:44,133 --> 00:48:46,097 And there is. And they can't get away from it. 671 00:48:46,396 --> 00:48:48,965 Let me illustrate this with a statement from Bill Nye. 672 00:48:49,398 --> 00:48:51,464 "You can show the Earth is not flat. 673 00:48:51,632 --> 00:48:53,265 You can show the Earth is not 10,000 years old." 674 00:48:53,499 --> 00:48:55,666 By the way, I agree. You can show the Earth is not flat. 675 00:48:55,867 --> 00:48:58,533 There's a video from the Galileo spacecraft showing 676 00:48:58,723 --> 00:49:00,999 the Earth, and speeded up of course, but spinning. 677 00:49:01,267 --> 00:49:03,094 You can see it's a sphere. You can observe that. 678 00:49:03,398 --> 00:49:05,735 You can't observe the age of the Earth. 679 00:49:05,900 --> 00:49:08,130 You don't see that. You see again, I emphasize, 680 00:49:08,298 --> 00:49:10,732 there's a big difference between historical science, 681 00:49:10,883 --> 00:49:13,333 talking about the past, and observational science, 682 00:49:13,519 --> 00:49:15,299 talking about the present. 683 00:49:15,565 --> 00:49:19,730 And I believe what's happening is this, that students are being 684 00:49:19,933 --> 00:49:21,901 indoctrinated by the confusion of terms: 685 00:49:21,999 --> 00:49:23,430 the hijacking of the word science and the hijacking 686 00:49:23,633 --> 00:49:26,267 of the word evolution in a bait-and-switch. 687 00:49:26,664 --> 00:49:28,667 Let me illustrate further with this video clip. 688 00:49:29,232 --> 00:49:31,899 Because here I assert that Bill Nye is equating 689 00:49:32,133 --> 00:49:34,534 observational science with historical science. 690 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,500 And I also say it's not a mystery when you understand the difference. 691 00:49:38,865 --> 00:49:42,065 Howie, people with these deeply held religious beliefs, 692 00:49:42,729 --> 00:49:45,766 they embrace that whole literal interpretation 693 00:49:46,064 --> 00:49:49,732 of the Bible as written in English, as a worldview. 694 00:49:50,032 --> 00:49:54,234 And, at the same time, they accept aspirin, 695 00:49:54,533 --> 00:49:58,869 antibiotic drugs, airplanes, but they're able 696 00:49:59,098 --> 00:50:01,567 to hold these two worldviews. And this is a mystery. 697 00:50:02,694 --> 00:50:04,564 Actually, I suggest to you it's not a mystery. 698 00:50:05,128 --> 00:50:06,863 You see, when I'm talking about antibiotics, 699 00:50:07,097 --> 00:50:09,466 aspirin, smoke detectors, jet planes, 700 00:50:09,866 --> 00:50:12,597 that's Ken Ham the Observational Science Bloke. 701 00:50:13,300 --> 00:50:15,497 I'm an Australian. We call guy's "blokes", okay? 702 00:50:16,087 --> 00:50:18,299 But when you're talking about creation and thousands of years 703 00:50:18,767 --> 00:50:19,969 of the age of the Earth, 704 00:50:20,465 --> 00:50:21,693 that's Ken Ham the Historical Science Bloke. 705 00:50:22,098 --> 00:50:23,094 I'm willing to admit that. 706 00:50:23,094 --> 00:50:24,131 Now, when Bill Nye's talking about aspirin, 707 00:50:24,930 --> 00:50:26,435 antibiotics, jet planes, smoke detectors, 708 00:50:26,700 --> 00:50:27,931 he does a great job at that. 709 00:50:28,168 --> 00:50:29,798 I used to enjoy watching him on TV too. 710 00:50:30,695 --> 00:50:32,667 That's Bill Nye the Observational Science Guy. 711 00:50:33,129 --> 00:50:35,031 But when he's talking about evolution and millions of years, 712 00:50:35,466 --> 00:50:38,898 I'm challenging him that that's Bill Nye the Historical Science Guy. 713 00:50:39,294 --> 00:50:42,534 And I challenge the evolutionist to admit the belief 714 00:50:42,999 --> 00:50:46,075 aspects of their particular worldview. 715 00:50:46,866 --> 00:50:49,966 Now, at the Creation Museum, we're only too willing 716 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:51,412 to admit our beliefs based upon the Bible, 717 00:50:51,900 --> 00:50:53,628 but we also teach people the difference between 718 00:50:53,964 --> 00:50:55,966 beliefs and what one can actually observe 719 00:50:56,156 --> 00:50:57,333 and experiment with in the present. 720 00:50:57,550 --> 00:50:59,832 I believe we're teaching people to think critically 721 00:51:00,135 --> 00:51:02,695 and to think in the right terms about science. 722 00:51:03,397 --> 00:51:04,896 I believe it's the creationists that should be 723 00:51:05,129 --> 00:51:08,462 educating the kids out there because we're teaching 724 00:51:08,664 --> 00:51:10,605 them the right way to think. You know, we admit it. 725 00:51:10,634 --> 00:51:12,767 Our origins of historical science is based upon the Bible, 726 00:51:13,899 --> 00:51:15,899 but I'm just challenging evolutionists to admit 727 00:51:16,166 --> 00:51:17,595 the belief aspects of evolution 728 00:51:17,799 --> 00:51:19,931 and be upfront about the difference here. 729 00:51:20,329 --> 00:51:22,332 As I said, I'm only too willing to admit 730 00:51:22,599 --> 00:51:24,530 my historical science based on the Bible. 731 00:51:25,192 --> 00:51:28,967 And let me further go on to define the term "creation" as we use it. 732 00:51:29,266 --> 00:51:34,033 By creation, we mean, here at Answers in Genesis 733 00:51:34,332 --> 00:51:37,664 and the Creation Museum, we mean the account based on the Bible. 734 00:51:37,899 --> 00:51:40,831 Yes, I take Genesis as literal history, as Jesus did. 735 00:51:41,499 --> 00:51:44,631 And, here at the Creation Museum, we walk people through that history. 736 00:51:45,133 --> 00:51:47,362 We walk them through creation, the perfect creation. 737 00:51:47,865 --> 00:51:51,730 That God made Adam and Eve, land animal kinds, sea-creatures and so on. 738 00:51:52,061 --> 00:51:54,332 And then sin and death entered the world. 739 00:51:54,565 --> 00:51:56,667 There was no death before sin. 740 00:51:57,433 --> 00:52:00,733 That means how can you have billions of dead things before man sinned? 741 00:52:01,298 --> 00:52:05,631 And then, the catastrophe of Noah's flood. If there was a global flood, 742 00:52:05,865 --> 00:52:09,715 you'd expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth. 743 00:52:10,134 --> 00:52:13,500 Had to say that because a lot of our supporters would want me to. 744 00:52:13,687 --> 00:52:18,001 And what do you find?--Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth. 745 00:52:18,332 --> 00:52:22,964 Confusion, the tower of Babel. God gave different languages so you get different people groups. 746 00:52:23,135 --> 00:52:28,367 So this is the geological, astronomical, anthropological, biological history as recorded in the Bible. 747 00:52:28,664 --> 00:52:31,632 So this is concerning what happened in the past that explains the present. 748 00:52:32,099 --> 00:52:36,531 And then, of course, that God's Son stepped into history to be Jesus Christ, the God-Man 749 00:52:36,735 --> 00:52:39,498 to die on the cross, be raised from the dead. And one day there's going to be 750 00:52:39,699 --> 00:52:43,132 a new heavens and a new earth to come. And, you know, not only 751 00:52:44,126 --> 00:52:47,629 is this an understanding of history to explain the 752 00:52:47,766 --> 00:52:51,461 geology, biology, astronomy, and so on to connect the present to the past. 753 00:52:51,932 --> 00:52:54,298 But it's also a foundation for our whole world view. 754 00:52:54,533 --> 00:52:58,567 For instance, in Matthew 19, when Jesus was asked about marriage, he said, 755 00:52:58,804 --> 00:53:02,334 "Have you not read He who made them at the beginning made them male and female?" 756 00:53:02,666 --> 00:53:06,898 And said, "For this cause shall a man leave his mother and father and be joined to his wife. And they'll be one flesh." 757 00:53:07,266 --> 00:53:12,431 He quoted from Genesis as literal history--Genesis 1 and 2. God invented marriage, by the way. 758 00:53:12,798 --> 00:53:15,500 That's where marriage comes from. And it's to be a man and a woman. 759 00:53:16,198 --> 00:53:20,067 And not only marriage. Ultimately, every single Biblical doctrine of theology 760 00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,531 directly or indirectly, is founded in Genesis. 761 00:53:22,797 --> 00:53:24,665 Why is there sin in the world? Genesis. 762 00:53:25,698 --> 00:53:26,533 Why is there death? Genesis. 763 00:53:26,967 --> 00:53:28,264 Why do we wear clothes? Genesis. 764 00:53:28,532 --> 00:53:29,533 Why did Jesus die on the cross? Genesis. 765 00:53:29,966 --> 00:53:33,064 It's a very important book. It's foundational to all Christian doctrine. 766 00:53:33,386 --> 00:53:36,700 And you see, when we look at that, what I call the seven C's of History 767 00:53:37,064 --> 00:53:38,566 that we walk people through here at the museum, 768 00:53:39,066 --> 00:53:41,499 think about how it all connects together--a perfect creation. 769 00:53:41,766 --> 00:53:43,713 It'll be perfect again in the future. 770 00:53:43,932 --> 00:53:47,293 Sin and death--end of the world. That's why God's son died on the cross 771 00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:50,194 to conquer death and offer a free gift of salvation. 772 00:53:50,465 --> 00:53:53,632 The flood of Noah's day, a reminder that the flood was a 773 00:53:53,963 --> 00:53:56,333 judgement because of man's wickedness but at the same time 774 00:53:56,566 --> 00:53:58,464 a message of God's grace and salvation. 775 00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,066 As Noah and his family had to go through a door to be saved, 776 00:54:01,399 --> 00:54:03,268 so we need to go through a door to be saved. 777 00:54:03,466 --> 00:54:05,465 Jesus Christ said, "I am the door. By me, if any man 778 00:54:06,100 --> 00:54:08,895 enter in, he'll be saved. And we make no apology 779 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:11,132 about the fact that what we're on about is this: 780 00:54:11,663 --> 00:54:13,831 "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and 781 00:54:14,164 --> 00:54:15,730 believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead, 782 00:54:16,096 --> 00:54:17,898 you'll be saved. Now, as soon as I said that, 783 00:54:18,085 --> 00:54:20,498 see if people say, "See, if you allow creation in schools, 784 00:54:20,764 --> 00:54:22,764 for instance, if you'll ask students to even hear about it, 785 00:54:22,999 --> 00:54:24,298 ah, this is religion." 786 00:54:24,832 --> 00:54:26,399 You know, let me illustrate this, 787 00:54:26,732 --> 00:54:31,096 talking about a recent battle in Texas over textbooks 788 00:54:31,225 --> 00:54:35,232 in the public school. A newspaper report said this: 789 00:54:35,567 --> 00:54:37,530 "Textbook and classroom curriculum battles have long 790 00:54:37,731 --> 00:54:39,967 raged in Texas pitting creationists - those who see 791 00:54:40,330 --> 00:54:41,866 God's hand in the creation of the universe- 792 00:54:42,076 --> 00:54:43,006 against academics..." 793 00:54:43,331 --> 00:54:45,799 Stop right there. Notice creationists... academics. 794 00:54:46,032 --> 00:54:48,764 Creationists can't be academics. Creationists can't be scientists. 795 00:54:48,998 --> 00:54:51,633 See, it's the way things are worded out there. 796 00:54:52,030 --> 00:54:53,800 It's an indoctrination that's going on. 797 00:54:54,197 --> 00:54:56,130 We worry about religious and political ideology 798 00:54:56,433 --> 00:54:57,899 trumping scientific fact. Wait a minute. 799 00:54:58,164 --> 00:54:59,330 What do I mean by science? You're talking about 800 00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,167 what you observe, or are you talking about your beliefs about the past? 801 00:55:02,434 --> 00:55:07,032 Now, Kathy Miller is the president of the Texas Freedom Network and 802 00:55:07,365 --> 00:55:15,097 she has vocally spoken out. She's spoken out about this textbook battle there in Texas. 803 00:55:17,601 --> 00:55:21,664 And the mission statement of the organization she's president of says, "The Texas Freedom Network 804 00:55:21,992 --> 00:55:24,833 advances a mainstream agenda of religious freedom and individual liberties 805 00:55:25,265 --> 00:55:29,867 to counter the religious right." Religious freedom... individual liberties. Hmm. 806 00:55:30,329 --> 00:55:34,297 And then she makes this statement: "Science education..." What does she mean by science? 807 00:55:34,662 --> 00:55:38,665 "should be based on mainstream science education, not on personal idealogical beliefs 808 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:43,233 of unqualified reviewers." Wait a minute. They want religious liberty and not personal 809 00:55:43,668 --> 00:55:48,730 ideological beliefs? I assert this: public school textbooks are using the same word "science" 810 00:55:48,904 --> 00:55:53,266 for observational and historical science. They arbitrarily define science as naturalism 811 00:55:53,629 --> 00:55:57,168 and outlaw the supernatural. They present molecules-to-man evolution as as fact. 812 00:55:57,402 --> 00:56:00,499 And they are imposing the religion of naturalism on generations of students. 813 00:56:00,733 --> 00:56:03,100 They're imposing their ideology on the students 814 00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:05,098 and everything's explained by natural processes. 815 00:56:05,363 --> 00:56:07,600 That is a religion. What do you mean by religious liberty? 816 00:56:07,762 --> 00:56:09,597 They tolerate their religion. 817 00:56:10,529 --> 00:56:12,463 See, the battle is really about authority. 818 00:56:12,833 --> 00:56:15,096 It's more than just science or evolution or creation. 819 00:56:15,233 --> 00:56:18,363 It's about who is the authority in this world, man or God? 820 00:56:18,667 --> 00:56:22,733 If you start with naturalism, then what about morals? 821 00:56:22,966 --> 00:56:25,333 Who decides right and wrong? Well, it's subjective. 822 00:56:25,544 --> 00:56:26,929 Marriage? Well, whatever you want it to be. 823 00:56:27,429 --> 00:56:29,661 Get rid of old people. I mean, why not? 824 00:56:29,766 --> 00:56:31,763 They're just animals, they're costing us a lot of money. 825 00:56:32,097 --> 00:56:35,098 Abortion. Get rid of spare cats, get rid of spare kids. We're all animals. 826 00:56:35,629 --> 00:56:38,232 But if you start from God's word, there are moral absolutes. 827 00:56:38,497 --> 00:56:40,931 God decides right and wrong. Marriage--one man and one woman. 828 00:56:41,100 --> 00:56:44,174 Sanctity of life--we care for old people. They're made in the image of God. 829 00:56:44,468 --> 00:56:47,898 Life begins at fertilization, so abortion is killing a human being. 830 00:56:48,260 --> 00:56:50,567 We do see the collapse of Christian morality 831 00:56:50,831 --> 00:56:53,395 in our culture and increasing moral relativism 832 00:56:53,503 --> 00:56:56,327 because generations of kids are being taught the religion 833 00:56:56,498 --> 00:56:59,132 of naturalism and that the Bible can't be trusted. 834 00:56:59,561 --> 00:57:03,100 And so, again, I say creation is the only viable model 835 00:57:03,297 --> 00:57:06,799 of historical science confirmed by observational science 836 00:57:06,799 --> 00:57:07,865 in today's modern scientific era. You know what? 837 00:57:08,833 --> 00:57:10,897 I'm a science teacher. I want to see kids taught science. 838 00:57:11,333 --> 00:57:14,299 I love science. I want to see more (inaudible) in the world. 839 00:57:14,467 --> 00:57:16,330 You know, if we teach them the whole universe 840 00:57:16,497 --> 00:57:19,467 is a result of natural processes and not designed 841 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,496 by a creative God, they might be looking in the wrong places 842 00:57:22,599 --> 00:57:24,329 or have the wrong idea when they're looking 843 00:57:24,499 --> 00:57:27,628 at the creation in regard to how you develop technology 844 00:57:27,933 --> 00:57:30,733 because if they look at it as just random processes, 845 00:57:30,898 --> 00:57:33,433 that could totally influence the way they think. 846 00:57:33,590 --> 00:57:36,132 If they understand it was a perfect world marred by sin, 847 00:57:36,366 --> 00:57:39,066 that could have a great affect on how they then look 848 00:57:39,267 --> 00:57:41,966 for overcoming diseases and problems in the world. 849 00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:45,667 I want children to be taught the right foundation, 850 00:57:46,032 --> 00:57:47,866 that there's a God who created them, who loves them, 851 00:57:48,163 --> 00:57:52,199 who died on the cross for them and that they're special. 852 00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:53,798 They're made in the image of God. 853 00:57:56,399 --> 00:57:58,467 (moderator) There you go. Thank you, Mr. Ham. 854 00:57:58,661 --> 00:58:01,433 -We can applaud Mr. Ham's presentation. -(audience applauds) 855 00:58:12,433 --> 00:58:14,100 And, you know, it did occur to me when you had 856 00:58:14,266 --> 00:58:16,765 my old friend Larry King up there, you could've just asked him. 857 00:58:16,966 --> 00:58:20,466 He's been around a long time. And he's a smart guy! 858 00:58:20,829 --> 00:58:25,095 He could probably answer for all of us. Now, let's all be 859 00:58:25,266 --> 00:58:28,434 attentive to Mr. Nye as he gives us his 30 minute presentation. 860 00:58:28,828 --> 00:58:31,752 Thank you very much and, Mr. Ham, I learned something. 861 00:58:31,965 --> 00:58:37,266 Thank you. But let's take it back around to question at hand: 862 00:58:37,767 --> 00:58:41,462 does Ken Ham's creation model hold up? Is it viable? 863 00:58:42,900 --> 00:58:46,699 So, for me, of course...well...take a look. 864 00:58:47,199 --> 00:58:53,366 We're here in Kentucky on layer upon layer upon layer of limestone. 865 00:58:53,833 --> 00:58:56,200 I stopped at the side of the road today and picked up 866 00:58:56,531 --> 00:59:00,267 just a piece of limestone. It has a fossil right there. 867 00:59:00,633 --> 00:59:05,133 Now, in these many, many layers, in this vicinity of Kentucky, 868 00:59:05,697 --> 00:59:10,400 there are coral animal--fossils, Zooxanthella-- 869 00:59:10,733 --> 00:59:11,931 and when you look at it closely, 870 00:59:12,333 --> 00:59:14,432 you can see that they lived their entire lives. 871 00:59:14,900 --> 00:59:18,199 They lived typically 20 years, sometimes more than that 872 00:59:18,567 --> 00:59:20,500 when the water conditions are correct. 873 00:59:21,100 --> 00:59:26,034 And so we are standing on millions of layers of ancient life. 874 00:59:27,465 --> 00:59:30,172 How could those animals have lived their entire life, 875 00:59:30,899 --> 00:59:33,833 and formed these layers, in just 4,000 years? 876 00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:38,567 There isn't enough time since Mr. Ham's flood 877 00:59:38,965 --> 00:59:43,466 for this limestone that we're standing on to come into existence. 878 00:59:46,267 --> 00:59:48,833 My scientific colleagues go to places like Greenland, 879 00:59:49,399 --> 00:59:52,237 the Arctic, they go to Antarctica, and they drill 880 00:59:52,662 --> 00:59:57,733 into the ice with hollow drill bits. It's not that extraordinary. 881 00:59:58,031 --> 01:00:00,100 Many of you have probably done it yourselves, drilling other things. 882 01:00:00,366 --> 01:00:02,999 Hole saws to put locks in doors, for example. 883 01:00:03,801 --> 01:00:09,433 And we pull out long cylinders of ice, long ice rods. 884 01:00:09,900 --> 01:00:14,298 And these are made of snow and it's called "snow ice". 885 01:00:15,165 --> 01:00:19,867 And snow ice forms over the winter as snowflakes fall 886 01:00:20,075 --> 01:00:23,033 and are crushed down by subsequent layers. They're crushed together, 887 01:00:23,274 --> 01:00:26,298 entrapping the little bubbles and the little bubbles must 888 01:00:26,563 --> 01:00:30,905 needs be ancient atmosphere. There's nobody running around 889 01:00:31,098 --> 01:00:34,196 with a hypodermic needle, squirting ancient atmosphere into the bubbles. 890 01:00:34,599 --> 01:00:41,200 And we find certain of these cylinders to have 680,000 layers. 891 01:00:41,467 --> 01:00:46,533 680,000 snow/winter/summer cycles. 892 01:00:47,669 --> 01:00:53,433 How could it be that just 4,000 years ago all of this ice formed? 893 01:00:53,801 --> 01:00:56,332 Let's just run some numbers. 894 01:00:56,634 --> 01:01:00,899 This is some scenes from the lovely Antarctic. 895 01:01:01,798 --> 01:01:05,399 Let's say we have 680,000 layers of snow ice 896 01:01:05,698 --> 01:01:08,033 and 4,000 years since the Great Flood. 897 01:01:08,702 --> 01:01:13,400 That would mean we'd need 170 winter-summer cycles 898 01:01:13,868 --> 01:01:17,231 every year, for the last 4,000 years. 899 01:01:17,633 --> 01:01:21,133 I mean, wouldn't someone have noticed that? Wow! 900 01:01:21,563 --> 01:01:23,232 Wouldn't someone have noticed that there's been 901 01:01:23,399 --> 01:01:25,832 winter-summer-winter-summer 170 times one year? 902 01:01:26,964 --> 01:01:33,132 If we go to California, we find enormous stands of bristlecone pines. 903 01:01:34,239 --> 01:01:38,511 Some of them are over 6,000 years old. 6,800 years old. 904 01:01:38,798 --> 01:01:45,009 There's a famous tree in Sweden, Old Tjikko, is 9,550 years old. 905 01:01:45,700 --> 01:01:53,200 How could these trees be there if there was an enormous flood just 4,000 years ago? 906 01:01:53,700 --> 01:01:55,964 You can try this yourself, everybody. 907 01:01:56,265 --> 01:01:58,631 Get, I mean, I don't mean to be mean to trees, 908 01:01:58,863 --> 01:02:02,733 but get a sapling and put it under water for a year. 909 01:02:03,261 --> 01:02:07,163 It will not survive in general. Nor will its seeds. 910 01:02:07,332 --> 01:02:10,731 They just won't make it. So how could these trees 911 01:02:11,066 --> 01:02:15,201 be that old if the Earth is only 4,000 years old? 912 01:02:15,513 --> 01:02:18,600 Now, when we go to the Grand Canyon--which is an astonishing place 913 01:02:18,867 --> 01:02:22,243 and I recommend to everybody in the world to someday visit the Grand Canyon-- 914 01:02:22,566 --> 01:02:25,965 you find layer upon layer of ancient rocks. 915 01:02:26,766 --> 01:02:31,200 And if there was this enormous flood that you speak of, 916 01:02:31,663 --> 01:02:35,299 wouldn't there have been churning and bubbling and roiling? 917 01:02:35,863 --> 01:02:38,466 How would these things have settled out? 918 01:02:38,766 --> 01:02:42,700 Your claim that they settled out in an extraordinary short amount of time 919 01:02:43,430 --> 01:02:47,901 is for me, not satisfactory. You can look at these rocks. You can look at rocks that are younger. 920 01:02:48,168 --> 01:02:53,564 You can go to seashores where there's sand. This is what geologists on the outside do, 921 01:02:54,065 --> 01:02:58,598 study the rate at which soil is deposited at the end of rivers and deltas. 922 01:02:58,996 --> 01:03:06,066 And we can see that it takes a long, long time for sediments to turn to stone. 923 01:03:06,591 --> 01:03:11,833 Also, in this picture you can see where one type of sediment has intruded on another type. 924 01:03:12,231 --> 01:03:17,223 Now, if that was uniform, wouldn't we expect it all to be even, without intrusion? 925 01:03:18,833 --> 01:03:23,033 Furthermore, you can find places in the Grand Canyon where you see an ancient riverbed on that side 926 01:03:23,536 --> 01:03:27,966 going to an ancient riverbed on that side and the Colorado River has cut through it. 927 01:03:28,566 --> 01:03:34,730 And by the way, if this great flood drained through the Grand Canyon, 928 01:03:34,936 --> 01:03:38,164 wouldn't there have been a Grand Canyon on every continent? 929 01:03:38,565 --> 01:03:43,193 How could we not have Grand Canyons everywhere if this water drained away in this extraordinary 930 01:03:43,597 --> 01:03:49,667 short amount of time? Four thousand years? Now when you look at these layers carefully, 931 01:03:50,500 --> 01:03:56,696 you find these beautiful fossils. And when I say beautiful, I am inspired by them. They are remarkable 932 01:03:56,898 --> 01:04:03,599 because we are looking at the past. You find down low. You'll find what you might consider 933 01:04:03,799 --> 01:04:09,296 is, uh, rudimentary sea animals. Up above you'll find the famous trilobytes. 934 01:04:09,598 --> 01:04:15,030 Above that you might find some clams, some oysters. And above that you find some mammals. 935 01:04:15,764 --> 01:04:22,501 You never, ever find a higher animal mixed in with a lower one. You never find a lower one 936 01:04:22,698 --> 01:04:28,331 trying to swim its way to a higher one. If it all happened in such an extraordinary short amount of time, 937 01:04:28,563 --> 01:04:33,695 if this water drained away just like that, wouldn't we expect to see some turbulence? 938 01:04:33,898 --> 01:04:40,365 And by the way, anyone here, really, if you can find one example of that, one example of that 939 01:04:40,767 --> 01:04:48,366 anywhere in the world, the scientists of the world challenge you. They would embrace you. You would be a hero. 940 01:04:48,696 --> 01:04:52,000 You would change the world if you could find one example of that anywhere. 941 01:04:52,366 --> 01:04:57,100 People have looked, and looked and looked. They have not found a single one. 942 01:04:59,234 --> 01:05:07,032 Now here's an interesting thing. These are fossil skulls that people have found all around the world. 943 01:05:07,495 --> 01:05:13,468 It's by no means representative of all the fossil skulls that have been found, but these are all over the place. 944 01:05:14,331 --> 01:05:24,331 Now, if you were to look at these, I can assure you, not any of them is a gorilla. Right? 945 01:05:25,267 --> 01:05:33,530 If as Mr. Ham and his associates claim, there was just man and then everybody else, there were just 946 01:05:33,733 --> 01:05:39,633 humans and all other species, where would you put modern humans among these skulls? 947 01:05:40,764 --> 01:05:46,397 How did all these skulls get all over the earth in these extraordinary fashion? Where would you put us? 948 01:05:47,867 --> 01:05:52,566 I can tell you we are on there and I encourage you, when you go home, to look it up. 949 01:05:54,698 --> 01:06:04,529 Now, one of the extraordinary claims associated with Mr. Ham's worldview is that this giant boat 950 01:06:04,977 --> 01:06:11,967 a very large wooden ship, went aground safely on a mountain in the Middle, what we now call the Middle East. 951 01:06:12,330 --> 01:06:19,930 And so places like Australia are populated then by animals who somehow managed to get 952 01:06:23,630 --> 01:06:26,400 from the Middle East all the way to Australia in the last 4,000 years. 953 01:06:26,667 --> 01:06:32,831 Now that, to me, is an extraordinary claim. We would expect then, somewhere between the Middle East 954 01:06:32,964 --> 01:06:36,733 and Australia, we would expect to find evidence of kangaroos. We would expect to find 955 01:06:37,002 --> 01:06:41,064 some fossils, some bones in the last 4,000 years. Somebody would have been hopping along there 956 01:06:43,299 --> 01:06:46,597 and died along the way, and we'd find them. And furthermore, there's a claim 957 01:06:48,599 --> 01:06:52,198 that there was a land bridge that allowed these animals to get from Asia all the way 958 01:06:52,534 --> 01:06:57,800 to the continent of Australia. And that land bridge has disappeared, has disappeared in the last 959 01:06:58,064 --> 01:07:05,400 4,000 years. No navigator, no diver, no U.S. Navy submarine, no one has ever detected any evidence 960 01:07:06,467 --> 01:07:12,134 of this, let alone any evidence of fossils of kangaroos. So, your expectation is not met. 961 01:07:12,597 --> 01:07:21,200 It doesn't seem to hold up. So, let's see. If there are 4,000 years since Ken Ham's flood 962 01:07:21,630 --> 01:07:27,532 and let's say, as he said many times, there are 7,000 kinds, 963 01:07:28,163 --> 01:07:35,267 today the very, very lowest estimate is that there are about 8.7 million species. 964 01:07:35,733 --> 01:07:39,865 But a much more reasonable estimate is it's 50 million, or even 100 million, 965 01:07:40,099 --> 01:07:45,366 when you start counting the viruses and the bacteria and all the beetles that must be extant 966 01:07:45,733 --> 01:07:51,866 in the tropical rain forests that we haven't found. So we'll take a number which I think is pretty reasonable, 967 01:07:52,100 --> 01:07:59,965 16 million species today. If these came from 7,000 kinds, 968 01:08:00,329 --> 01:08:03,533 let's say we have 7,000 subtracted from 15 million, 969 01:08:03,732 --> 01:08:09,565 that's 15,993. If 4,000 years, we have 365.25 days a year, 970 01:08:10,735 --> 01:08:15,254 we would expect to find 11 new species every day. 971 01:08:15,763 --> 01:08:22,265 So you'd go out into your yard, you wouldn't just find a different bird, a new bird 972 01:08:22,731 --> 01:08:26,666 you'd find a different kind of bird, a whole new species, a bird! 973 01:08:27,130 --> 01:08:31,966 Every day, a new species of fish, a new species of organisms you can't see, and so on. 974 01:08:32,187 --> 01:08:38,633 I mean, this would be enormous news. The last 4,000 years people would have seen these changes among us. 975 01:08:39,363 --> 01:08:43,133 So the Cincinnati Enquirer, I imagine, would carry a column right next to the weather report: 976 01:08:44,699 --> 01:08:50,331 Today's New Species, and it would list these 11 every day, but we see no evidence of that. 977 01:08:50,631 --> 01:08:54,266 There's no evidence of these species. There simply isn't enough time. 978 01:08:54,833 --> 01:08:58,731 Now as you may know, I was graduated from engineering school and I was, 979 01:08:59,093 --> 01:09:07,298 I got a job at Boeing. I worked on 747s. I, okay everybody relax, I was very well supervised. 980 01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:13,901 Everything's fine. There's a tube in the 747 I kind of think of that's my tube. 981 01:09:14,166 --> 01:09:18,332 But that aside, I travelled the highways of Washington state quite a bit. 982 01:09:18,566 --> 01:09:23,631 I was a young guy. I had a motorcycle. I used to go mountain climbing in Washington state... Oregon. 983 01:09:23,631 --> 01:09:32,266 And you can drive along and find these enormous boulders on top of the ground, enormous rocks, 984 01:09:32,765 --> 01:09:40,965 huge, sitting on top of the ground. Now, out there, in regular academic pursuits, regular geology, 985 01:09:41,863 --> 01:09:46,899 people have discovered that there was, used to be a lake in what is now Montana 986 01:09:47,332 --> 01:09:50,497 which we charmingly refer to as Lake Missoula. 987 01:09:50,866 --> 01:09:54,698 It's not there now but the evidence for it, of course, if I may, overwhelming. 988 01:09:55,132 --> 01:10:01,331 And so, an ice dam would form at Lake Missoula and once in a while it would break. 989 01:10:01,699 --> 01:10:06,598 It would build up and break. And there were multiple floods in my old state of Washington state. 990 01:10:06,764 --> 01:10:12,869 And, just, before we go on, let me just say, go Seahawks! That was very gratifying, very gratifying for me. 991 01:10:14,167 --> 01:10:20,698 Anyway you drive along the road and there are these rocks. So, if as is asserted here at this facility, 992 01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:25,233 that the heavier rocks would sink to the bottom during a flood event, 993 01:10:25,666 --> 01:10:29,655 the big rocks, and especially their shape, instead of aerodynamic, 994 01:10:30,166 --> 01:10:34,367 the hydrodynamic, the water changing shape, as water flows past, 995 01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:38,867 you'd expect them to sink to the bottom. But here are these enormous rocks right on the surface. 996 01:10:39,199 --> 01:10:42,797 And there's no shortage of them. If you go driving in Washington state or Oregon 997 01:10:42,999 --> 01:10:49,900 they are readily available. So how could those be there if the Earth is just 4,000 years old. 998 01:10:50,133 --> 01:10:53,432 How could they be there if this one flood caused that? 999 01:10:54,063 --> 01:11:01,167 Another remarkable thing I'd like everybody to consider, alone inherent in this worldview, 1000 01:11:01,900 --> 01:11:10,266 is that somehow Noah and his family were able to build a wooden ship that would house 1001 01:11:11,033 --> 01:11:18,031 14,000 individuals. There were 7,000 kinds and then, there's a boy and a girl for each one of those, 1002 01:11:18,427 --> 01:11:22,963 so there's about 14,000... 8 people. And these people were unskilled. 1003 01:11:23,465 --> 01:11:27,166 As far as anybody knows they had never built a wooden ship before. 1004 01:11:27,629 --> 01:11:31,667 Furthermore, they had to get all these animals on there. And they had to feed them. 1005 01:11:32,466 --> 01:11:37,466 And I understand that Mr. Ham has some explanations for that, which I frankly find extraordinary but 1006 01:11:38,233 --> 01:11:45,966 this is the premise of the bit. And we can then run a test, a scientific test. 1007 01:11:46,465 --> 01:11:52,333 People in the early 1900s built an extraordinary, large wooden ship, the Wyoming. 1008 01:11:52,832 --> 01:12:00,464 It was a six-masted schooner, the largest one ever built. It had a motor on it for winching cables and stuff. 1009 01:12:00,966 --> 01:12:07,631 But this boat had a great difficulty. It was not as big as the Titanic, but it was a very long ship. 1010 01:12:08,030 --> 01:12:16,400 It would twist in the sea. It would twist this way, this way, and this way. 1011 01:12:16,666 --> 01:12:23,066 And in all that twisting, it leaked. It leaked like crazy. The crew could not keep the ship dry. 1012 01:12:23,464 --> 01:12:30,767 And indeed, it eventually foundered and sank, a loss of all 14 hands. So there were 14 crewmen 1013 01:12:31,366 --> 01:12:35,532 aboard a ship built by very, very skilled shipwrights in New England. 1014 01:12:35,833 --> 01:12:39,997 These guys were the best in the world at wooden shipbuilding. And they couldn't build 1015 01:12:40,863 --> 01:12:44,499 a boat as big as the Ark is claimed to have been. 1016 01:12:47,197 --> 01:12:51,466 Is that reasonable? Is that possible that the best shipbuilders in the world couldn't do 1017 01:12:51,667 --> 01:12:57,163 what eight unskilled people, men and their wives, were able to do? 1018 01:12:57,833 --> 01:13:06,566 If you visit the National Zoo, in Washington D.C., it's 163 acres. And they have 400 species. 1019 01:13:06,767 --> 01:13:12,066 By the way, this picture that you're seeing was taken by spacecraft in space, orbiting the Earth. 1020 01:13:12,567 --> 01:13:17,764 If you told my grandfather, let alone my father, that we had that capability, 1021 01:13:17,965 --> 01:13:21,732 they would have been amazed. That capability comes from our fundamental understanding 1022 01:13:22,163 --> 01:13:29,200 of gravity, of material science, of physics, and life science, where you go looking. 1023 01:13:29,499 --> 01:13:35,567 This place is often, as any zoo, is often deeply concerned and criticized for how it treats its animals. 1024 01:13:36,630 --> 01:13:44,498 They have 400 species on 163 acres, 66 hectares. Is it reasonable that Noah and his colleagues, 1025 01:13:45,031 --> 01:13:51,229 his family, were able to maintain 14,000 animals and themselves, and feed them, aboard a ship 1026 01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:54,366 that was bigger than anyone's ever been able to build? 1027 01:13:55,165 --> 01:14:02,479 Now, here's the thing, what we want in science, science as practiced on the outside, 1028 01:14:02,900 --> 01:14:10,900 is an ability to predict. We want to have a natural law that is so obvious and clear, 1029 01:14:11,532 --> 01:14:14,932 so well understood that we can make predictions about what will happen. 1030 01:14:15,433 --> 01:14:20,367 We can predict that we can put a spacecraft in orbit and take a picture of Washington D.C. 1031 01:14:20,729 --> 01:14:25,765 We can predict that if we provide this much room for an elephant, it will live healthily 1032 01:14:26,032 --> 01:14:30,563 for a certain amount of time. I'll give you an example. 1033 01:14:32,858 --> 01:14:38,765 In the explanation provided by traditional science, of how we came to be, 1034 01:14:39,555 --> 01:14:43,548 we find as Mr. Ham alluded to many times in his recent remarks, 1035 01:14:44,164 --> 01:14:49,433 we find a sequence of animals in what, generally, is called "the fossil record." 1036 01:14:49,829 --> 01:14:53,500 This would be to say when we look at the layers, that you would find in Kentucky, 1037 01:14:53,798 --> 01:14:58,267 you look at them carefully, you find a sequence of animals, a succession. 1038 01:14:58,568 --> 01:15:02,465 And as one might expect, when you are looking at old records 1039 01:15:02,630 --> 01:15:05,198 there's some pieces seem to be missing, a gap. 1040 01:15:05,396 --> 01:15:09,033 So scientists got to thinking about this. 1041 01:15:09,500 --> 01:15:14,199 There are lungfish that jump from pond to pond in Florida 1042 01:15:14,466 --> 01:15:15,898 and end up in people's swimming pools. 1043 01:15:16,398 --> 01:15:19,867 And there are amphibians, frogs and toads, croaking and carrying on. 1044 01:15:20,267 --> 01:15:25,665 And so people wondered if there wasn't a fossil or an organism, 1045 01:15:25,998 --> 01:15:29,165 an animal, that had lived, that had characteristics of both. 1046 01:15:29,998 --> 01:15:33,896 People over the years had found that in Canada, 1047 01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:36,666 there was clearly a fossil marsh-- 1048 01:15:37,100 --> 01:15:39,365 a place that used to be a swamp that had dried out. 1049 01:15:39,832 --> 01:15:44,332 And they found all kinds of happy swamp fossils there: 1050 01:15:44,763 --> 01:15:48,666 ferns, organisms, animals, fish that were recognized. 1051 01:15:49,733 --> 01:15:52,394 And people realized that if this, with the age of the rocks there, 1052 01:15:53,099 --> 01:15:58,500 as computed by traditional scientists, with the age of the rocks there, 1053 01:15:58,701 --> 01:16:02,168 this would be a reasonable place to look for an animal, 1054 01:16:02,530 --> 01:16:07,697 a fossil of an animal that lived there. And, indeed, scientists found it. 1055 01:16:08,132 --> 01:16:10,864 Tiktaalik, this fish-lizard guy. 1056 01:16:11,868 --> 01:16:16,665 And they found several specimens, it wasn't one individual. 1057 01:16:17,098 --> 01:16:19,398 In other words, they made a prediction, that this animal 1058 01:16:20,897 --> 01:16:26,131 would be found and it was found. So far, Mr. Ham and his worldview, 1059 01:16:26,397 --> 01:16:30,266 the Ken Ham creation model, does not have this capability. 1060 01:16:30,496 --> 01:16:34,000 It cannot make predictions and show results. 1061 01:16:34,464 --> 01:16:38,497 Here's an extraordinary one that I find remarkable. 1062 01:16:39,065 --> 01:16:45,700 There are certain fish, the Topminnows, that have 1063 01:16:46,035 --> 01:16:50,898 the remarkable ability to have sex with other fish, 1064 01:16:51,898 --> 01:16:56,133 traditional fish sex, and they can have sex with themselves. 1065 01:16:56,433 --> 01:16:59,966 Now, one of the old questions in life science, everybody, 1066 01:17:00,333 --> 01:17:04,601 one of the old chin strokers is why does any organism, 1067 01:17:05,100 --> 01:17:12,765 whether you're an ash tree, a sea jelly, a squid, a marmot, 1068 01:17:13,031 --> 01:17:17,936 why does anybody have sex? I mean, there are more bacteria 1069 01:17:18,179 --> 01:17:21,998 in your tummy right now then there are humans on Earth. 1070 01:17:22,365 --> 01:17:23,764 And bacteria, they don't bother with that, man. 1071 01:17:23,764 --> 01:17:26,230 They split themselves in half, they get new bacteria! 1072 01:17:26,431 --> 01:17:29,566 Like, let's get her done! Let's go. But why does any-- 1073 01:17:31,866 --> 01:17:34,666 think of all the trouble a rose bush goes to make a flower and the thorns 1074 01:17:34,998 --> 01:17:41,199 and the bees flying around, interacting--why does anybody bother with all that? 1075 01:17:41,900 --> 01:17:45,797 And the answer seems to be...your enemies. 1076 01:17:46,031 --> 01:17:51,998 And your enemies are not lions and tigers and bears...oh my! 1077 01:17:52,329 --> 01:17:55,895 No, your enemies are germs and parasites. 1078 01:17:56,429 --> 01:17:59,200 That's what's gonna get you. Germs and parasites. 1079 01:18:00,299 --> 01:18:06,065 My first cousin's son died tragically from essentially the flu. 1080 01:18:06,233 --> 01:18:09,295 This is not some story I heard about. This is my first cousin, once removed. 1081 01:18:09,499 --> 01:18:13,562 Because, apparently, the virus had the right genes to attack his genes. 1082 01:18:13,799 --> 01:18:16,831 So when you have sex you have a new set of genes. 1083 01:18:17,266 --> 01:18:21,095 You have a new mixture. So people studied these Topminnows. 1084 01:18:21,434 --> 01:18:24,830 And they found that the ones who reproduced sexually 1085 01:18:25,097 --> 01:18:30,130 had fewer parasites that the ones who reproduced on their own. 1086 01:18:30,431 --> 01:18:34,793 This Black Spot disease--wait, wait, there's more. 1087 01:18:34,793 --> 01:18:37,965 In these populations, with flooding and so on, when river ponds get isolated, 1088 01:18:38,231 --> 01:18:40,532 then they dry up, then the river flows again. 1089 01:18:40,735 --> 01:18:45,167 In between, some of the fish will have sex with other fish, 1090 01:18:45,365 --> 01:18:49,299 sometimes, and they'll have sex on their own, what's called asexually. 1091 01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:52,932 And those fish, the ones that are in between, sometimes this, 1092 01:18:53,135 --> 01:18:57,196 sometimes that, they have an intermediate number of infections. 1093 01:18:57,933 --> 01:19:02,799 In other words, the explanation provided by evolution made a prediction. 1094 01:19:03,695 --> 01:19:06,499 And the prediction's extraordinary and subtle, but there it is. 1095 01:19:07,397 --> 01:19:09,265 How else would you explain it? 1096 01:19:09,765 --> 01:19:14,567 And to Mr. Ham and his followers I say this is something we in science want. 1097 01:19:14,832 --> 01:19:18,428 We want the ability to predict. And your assertion 1098 01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:21,621 that there's some difference between the natural laws 1099 01:19:21,965 --> 01:19:24,800 that I use to observe the world today and the natural laws 1100 01:19:25,066 --> 01:19:30,062 that existed 4,000 years ago is extraordinary and unsettling. 1101 01:19:31,733 --> 01:19:35,032 I travel around. I have a great many family members 1102 01:19:35,366 --> 01:19:40,135 in Danville, Virginia, one of the U.S's most livable cities. 1103 01:19:40,566 --> 01:19:46,408 It's lovely. And I was driving along and there was a sign in front of a church: 1104 01:19:47,996 --> 01:19:50,833 "Big Bang theory? You got to be kidding me. God." 1105 01:19:51,667 --> 01:19:56,073 Now, everybody, why would someone at the church, a pastor for example, 1106 01:19:56,433 --> 01:20:03,297 put that sign up unless he or she didn't believe 1107 01:20:03,699 --> 01:20:07,033 that the big bang was a real thing? I just want to review, 1108 01:20:07,133 --> 01:20:09,500 briefly, with everybody why we accept, 1109 01:20:09,866 --> 01:20:13,931 in the outside world, why we accept the Big Bang. 1110 01:20:14,967 --> 01:20:23,169 Edwin Hubble, sorry, there you go,you gotta be kidding me God. 1111 01:20:23,700 --> 01:20:28,499 Edwin Hubble was sitting at Mount Wilson, which is up from Pasadena, California. 1112 01:20:29,260 --> 01:20:33,167 On a clear day you can look down and see where the Rose Parade goes. 1113 01:20:33,464 --> 01:20:35,131 It's that close to civilization. 1114 01:20:35,500 --> 01:20:39,999 But even in the early 1900's, the people who selected this site for astronomy 1115 01:20:40,598 --> 01:20:45,133 picked an excellent site. The clouds and smog are below you. 1116 01:20:45,801 --> 01:20:51,069 And Edwin Hubble sat there at this very big telescope night after night studying the heavens. 1117 01:20:52,099 --> 01:20:58,365 And he found that the stars are moving apart. The stars are moving apart. 1118 01:20:59,100 --> 01:21:07,210 And he wasn't sure why. But it was clear that the stars are moving farther and farther apart all the time. 1119 01:21:08,031 --> 01:21:11,199 So people talked about it for a couple decades. 1120 01:21:11,666 --> 01:21:15,900 And then eventually another astronomer, almost a couple decades, another astronomer 1121 01:21:16,132 --> 01:21:20,664 Fred Hoyle just remarked, "Well, it was like there was a big bang. 1122 01:21:20,865 --> 01:21:24,797 There was an explosion. This is to say; since everything's moving apart, 1123 01:21:25,164 --> 01:21:28,233 it's very reasonable that at one time they were all together. 1124 01:21:28,665 --> 01:21:32,536 And there's a place from whence, or rather whence, these things expanded." 1125 01:21:32,901 --> 01:21:35,235 And it was a remarkable insight. 1126 01:21:35,533 --> 01:21:38,799 But people went still questioning it for decades. 1127 01:21:39,063 --> 01:21:43,429 Scientists, conventional scientists, questioning it for decades. 1128 01:21:44,266 --> 01:21:51,699 These two researchers wanted to listen for radio signals from space--radio astronomy. 1129 01:21:51,964 --> 01:21:57,899 And this is while we have visible light for our eyes, there is a whole other bunch of waves of light 1130 01:21:58,066 --> 01:22:01,867 that are much longer. The microwaves in your oven are about that long. 1131 01:22:02,134 --> 01:22:07,799 The radar at the airport is about that long. Your FM radio signals about like this. 1132 01:22:08,001 --> 01:22:13,966 AM radio signals are a kilometer--they're a couple, several soccer fields. 1133 01:22:14,861 --> 01:22:21,701 They went out listening. And there was this hiss, this hisssssss, all the time 1134 01:22:21,931 --> 01:22:25,232 that wouldn't go away. And they thought "Oh! Doggone it. There's some loose 1135 01:22:25,433 --> 01:22:29,400 connector." They plugged in the connector. They rescrewed it. They made it tight. 1136 01:22:30,232 --> 01:22:31,974 They turned it this way. The hiss was still there. 1137 01:22:32,297 --> 01:22:33,664 They turned it that way. It was still there. 1138 01:22:33,899 --> 01:22:41,299 They thought it was pigeon droppings that had affected the reception of this "horn" it's called. 1139 01:22:41,299 --> 01:22:43,567 This thing is still there. It's in Basking Ridge, New Jersey. 1140 01:22:43,567 --> 01:22:49,699 It's a national historic site. And Arno Pinzius and Robert Wilson had found 1141 01:22:49,699 --> 01:22:55,833 this cosmic background sound that was predicted by astronomers. 1142 01:22:55,833 --> 01:22:59,033 Astronomers running the numbers, doing math, predicted 1143 01:22:59,033 --> 01:23:02,575 that in the cosmos would be left over this echo, 1144 01:23:02,575 --> 01:23:06,899 this energy, from the Big Bang that would be detectable. 1145 01:23:06,899 --> 01:23:13,799 And they detected it. We built the Cosmic Observatory for Background Emissions, the COBE spacecraft, 1146 01:23:13,799 --> 01:23:17,834 and it matched exactly, exactly the astronomers predictions. 1147 01:23:19,032 --> 01:23:22,011 You gotta respect that. It's a wonderful thing. 1148 01:23:23,166 --> 01:23:29,400 Now, along that line is some interest in the age of the earth. 1149 01:23:29,833 --> 01:23:35,400 Right now, it's generally agreed that the Big Bang happened 13.7 billion years ago. 1150 01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:41,366 What we can do on earth. These elements that we all know on the Periodic Table of Chemicals, 1151 01:23:41,656 --> 01:23:46,530 even ones we don't know, were created when stars explode. 1152 01:23:46,530 --> 01:23:51,432 And I look like nobody. But I attended a lecture by Hans Betta who won a Nobel 1153 01:23:51,432 --> 01:23:55,432 Prize for discovering the process by which stars create all these elements. 1154 01:23:56,533 --> 01:24:02,263 The one that interests me especially is our good friends Rubidium and Strontium. 1155 01:24:02,731 --> 01:24:06,530 Rubidium becomes Strontium spontaneously. It's an interesting thing to me. 1156 01:24:06,733 --> 01:24:11,263 A neutron becomes a proton. And it goes up the Periodic Table. 1157 01:24:11,757 --> 01:24:15,098 When lava comes out of the ground, molten lava, 1158 01:24:15,567 --> 01:24:19,231 and it freezes, turns to rock, when the melt solidifies, 1159 01:24:19,231 --> 01:24:23,041 or crystalizes, it locks the Rubidium and Strontium in place. 1160 01:24:23,564 --> 01:24:30,334 And so by careful assay, by careful, by being diligent, you can tell when the rock froze. 1161 01:24:30,867 --> 01:24:35,833 You can tell how old the Rubidium and Strontium are. And you can get an age for the earth. 1162 01:24:36,396 --> 01:24:42,366 When that stuff falls on fossils, you can get a very good idea of how old the fossils are. 1163 01:24:42,633 --> 01:24:47,634 I encourage you all to go to Nebraska, go to Ashfall State Park 1164 01:24:48,131 --> 01:24:51,832 and see the astonishing fossils. It looks like a Hollywood movie. 1165 01:24:51,832 --> 01:24:57,266 There are rhinoceroses. There are three-toed horses in Nebraska. 1166 01:24:57,266 --> 01:25:02,665 None of those animals are extant today. And they are buried, catastrophically, by a 1167 01:25:02,665 --> 01:25:05,697 volcano in what is now Idaho. Is now Yellowstone National Park. 1168 01:25:05,697 --> 01:25:08,200 What is called the hot spot. People call it the super-volcano. 1169 01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:12,500 And it's the remarkable thing. Apparently, as I can tell you, as a Northwesterner around 1170 01:25:12,500 --> 01:25:17,266 for Mount St. Helen's. For full disclosure I'm on the Mount St. Helen's Board. 1171 01:25:17,266 --> 01:25:20,532 When it (explosive sound), when it goes off it gives out a great deal of gas 1172 01:25:20,532 --> 01:25:24,866 that's toxic and knock these animals out. Looking for relief, they go to a watering 1173 01:25:24,866 --> 01:25:29,166 hole. And then when the ash comes they were all buried. It's an extraordinary place. 1174 01:25:30,231 --> 01:25:36,196 Now if in the bad old days, you had heart problems, they would right away cut you open. 1175 01:25:37,199 --> 01:25:43,167 Now, we use a drug based on Rubidium to look at the inside of your heart without cutting you open. 1176 01:25:44,297 --> 01:25:52,133 Now, my Kentucky friends, I want you to consider this. Right now, there is no place 1177 01:25:52,133 --> 01:25:57,533 in the Commonwealth of Kentucky to get a degree in this kind of nuclear medicine-- 1178 01:25:57,533 --> 01:25:59,433 this kind of drugs associated with that. 1179 01:26:00,299 --> 01:26:04,333 I hope you find that troubling. I hope you're concerned about that. 1180 01:26:05,561 --> 01:26:10,566 You want scientifically literate students in your commonwealth for a better tomorrow for everybody. 1181 01:26:11,696 --> 01:26:15,465 You can, you can't get this here. You have to go out of state. 1182 01:26:16,500 --> 01:26:22,300 Now as far as the distance to stars. Understand this is very well understood. 1183 01:26:22,300 --> 01:26:27,031 We, it's February. We look at a star in February. We measure an angle to it. 1184 01:26:27,031 --> 01:26:31,701 We wait six months. We look at that same star again and we measure that angle. 1185 01:26:31,701 --> 01:26:37,667 It's the same way carpenters built this building. It's the same way surveyors surveyed the land that we're standing on. 1186 01:26:37,667 --> 01:26:42,232 And so by measuring the distance to a star, you can figure out how far away it is, that star, 1187 01:26:42,232 --> 01:26:46,630 and the stars beyond it, and the stars beyond that. There are billions of stars. 1188 01:26:46,630 --> 01:26:50,397 Billions of stars more than six thousand light years from here. 1189 01:26:50,868 --> 01:26:54,334 A light year is a unit of distance, not a unit of time. 1190 01:26:55,199 --> 01:27:01,100 There are billions of stars. Mr. Hamm, how could there be billions of stars more distant 1191 01:27:01,100 --> 01:27:05,333 than six thousand years, if the world's only six thousand years old? 1192 01:27:05,598 --> 01:27:12,234 It's an extraordinary claim. There's another astronomer, Adolphe Quetele, who remarked first 1193 01:27:12,234 --> 01:27:23,663 about the reasonable man. Is it reasonable that we have ice older by a factor of a hundred than you claim the earth is? 1194 01:27:24,097 --> 01:27:27,130 We have trees that have more tree rings than the earth is old. 1195 01:27:27,130 --> 01:27:33,200 We have rocks with Rubidium and Strontium, and Uranium-Uranium, and Potassium-Argon dating 1196 01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:37,063 that are far, far, far older than you claim the earth is. 1197 01:27:37,063 --> 01:27:44,362 Could anybody have built an ark that would sustain the better than any ark anybody was able to build on the earth? 1198 01:27:44,362 --> 01:27:49,200 So, if you're asking me, and I got the impression you were, 1199 01:27:49,200 --> 01:27:55,212 is Ken Hamm's creation model viable? I say "No! Absolutely not!" 1200 01:27:56,367 --> 01:28:01,566 Now, one last thing. You may not know that in the US Constitution, from the founding fathers, 1201 01:28:01,799 --> 01:28:05,733 is the sentence "to promote the progress of science and useful arts..." 1202 01:28:06,832 --> 01:28:12,032 Kentucky voters, voters who might be watching online, 1203 01:28:12,299 --> 01:28:16,733 in places like Texas, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kansas, please 1204 01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:20,064 you don't want to raise a generation of science students 1205 01:28:20,064 --> 01:28:23,914 who don't understand how we know our place in the cosmos, 1206 01:28:23,914 --> 01:28:26,667 our place in space, who don't understand natural law. 1207 01:28:26,667 --> 01:28:30,770 We need to innovate to keep the United States where it is in the world. 1208 01:28:30,770 --> 01:28:33,997 Thank you very much. (applause) 1209 01:28:48,767 --> 01:28:52,097 Moderator: That's a lot to take in. I hope everybody's holding up well. 1210 01:28:52,097 --> 01:28:55,700 That's a lot of information. What we're going to have now is a five minute 1211 01:28:55,700 --> 01:28:59,342 rebuttal time for each gentleman to address the other one's comments. 1212 01:28:59,342 --> 01:29:03,929 And then there will be a five minute counter rebuttal after that. 1213 01:29:03,929 --> 01:29:06,532 Things are going to start moving a little more quickly now. 1214 01:29:06,532 --> 01:29:10,967 So at this point in particular, I want to make sure we don't have applauding or anything else going on that slows it down. 1215 01:29:10,967 --> 01:29:15,497 So, Mr. Hamm, if you'd like to begin with your five minute rebuttal first. 1216 01:29:25,600 --> 01:29:30,096 Mr. Hamm: First of all, Bill, if I was to answer all the points that you brought up, 1217 01:29:30,400 --> 01:29:34,167 the moderator would think that I was going on for millions of years. (laughter) 1218 01:29:34,498 --> 01:29:36,000 So I can only deal with some of them. 1219 01:29:36,335 --> 01:29:39,699 And you mentioned the age of the earth a couple of times, so let me deal with that. 1220 01:29:40,066 --> 01:29:48,972 As I said in my presentation, you can't observe the age of the earth. I would say that comes under what we call historical origin science. 1221 01:29:48,972 --> 01:29:52,400 Now, just so you understand where I'm coming from. 1222 01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:57,168 Yes, we admit we build our origins from historical science on the Bible. 1223 01:29:57,168 --> 01:30:02,800 The Bible says God created in six days. A Hebrew word "yon" as it's used in Genesis 1 1224 01:30:02,800 --> 01:30:06,533 with evening/morning number means an ordinary day. Adam was made on day six. 1225 01:30:06,533 --> 01:30:10,099 And so, when you add up all those geneologies specifically given in the Bible 1226 01:30:10,099 --> 01:30:20,200 from Adam to Abraham you've got 2,000 years; from Abraham to Christ 2,000 years; from Christ to the present 2,000 years. 1227 01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:24,204 That's how we get 6,000 years. So that's where it comes from. Just so you know. 1228 01:30:24,204 --> 01:30:30,237 Now a lot of people say. Now, by the way, the earth's age is 4.5 billion years old. 1229 01:30:30,237 --> 01:30:35,767 And we have radioactive decay dating methods that found that. 1230 01:30:35,767 --> 01:30:39,001 But you see, we certainly observe radioactive decay 1231 01:30:39,001 --> 01:30:42,999 whether it's rubidium-strontium, whether it's uranium-lead, potassium-argon 1232 01:30:42,999 --> 01:30:46,199 But when you're talking about the past, we have a problem. 1233 01:30:46,199 --> 01:30:50,334 I'll give you a practical example. In Australia, there were engineers 1234 01:30:50,334 --> 01:30:53,365 that were trying to search out about a coal mine. 1235 01:30:53,365 --> 01:30:58,398 And so they drilled down and they found a basalt layer, a lava flow that had woody material in it-- 1236 01:30:58,398 --> 01:31:04,299 branches and twigs and so on. And when Dr. Andrew Snelling, our PhD geologist, 1237 01:31:05,322 --> 01:31:08,500 sent that to a lab in Massachusetts in 1994, they used potassium-argon 1238 01:31:08,516 --> 01:31:11,326 dating and dated it at 45 million years old. 1239 01:31:11,700 --> 01:31:14,499 Well, he also sent the wood to the radio-carbon section of the same lab 1240 01:31:16,230 --> 01:31:20,332 and that dated at 45,000 years old. 45,000 year old wood in 45 million year old rock. 1241 01:31:20,332 --> 01:31:22,896 The point is there's a problem. 1242 01:31:22,896 --> 01:31:25,900 Let me give you another example of a problem. 1243 01:31:25,900 --> 01:31:29,732 There was a lava dome that started to form in the 80's after Mt. St. Helen's erupted. 1244 01:31:29,732 --> 01:31:37,363 And in 1994 Dr. Steve Austin, another PhD geologist, actually sampled the rock there. 1245 01:31:37,363 --> 01:31:45,466 He took whole rock, crushed it, sent it to the same lab actually, I believe, and got a date of .35 million years. 1246 01:31:45,466 --> 01:31:50,466 When he separated out the minerals amphibole and pyroxene and used potassium-argon dating, 1247 01:31:50,466 --> 01:31:56,904 he got .9 million and 2.8 million. My point is all these dating methods actually give all sorts of different dates. 1248 01:31:56,904 --> 01:32:02,132 In fact, different dating methods on the same rock, we can show, give all sorts of different dates. 1249 01:32:02,132 --> 01:32:05,099 See there's lots of assumptions in regard to radioactive dating. 1250 01:32:05,099 --> 01:32:09,666 Number one, for instance, the amounts of the parent and daughter isotopes at the beginning when the rock formed. 1251 01:32:09,666 --> 01:32:12,565 We have to know them. But you weren't there. See that's historical science. 1252 01:32:12,565 --> 01:32:20,766 Assumption 2: that all daughter atoms measured today must have only been derived in situ radioactive decay of parent atoms. 1253 01:32:20,766 --> 01:32:22,133 In other words it's a closed system. 1254 01:32:22,133 --> 01:32:25,933 But you don't know that. And there's a lot of evidence that that's not so. 1255 01:32:25,933 --> 01:32:28,807 Assumption Number 3: that the decay rates have remained a constant. 1256 01:32:28,807 --> 01:32:31,133 Now they're just some of them. There's others as well. 1257 01:32:31,133 --> 01:32:33,966 The point is there's lots of assumptions in regard to the dating methods. 1258 01:32:33,966 --> 01:32:39,132 So there's no dating method you can use that you can absolutely age date a rock. 1259 01:32:41,200 --> 01:32:43,132 There's all sorts of differences out there. 1260 01:32:43,132 --> 01:32:46,232 And I do want to address the bit you brought up about Christians believing in millions of years. 1261 01:32:46,232 --> 01:32:48,580 Yeah, there's a lot of Christians out there that believe in millions of years, 1262 01:32:48,580 --> 01:32:52,300 but I'd say they have a problem. I'm not saying they're not Christians, but 1263 01:32:52,300 --> 01:32:56,068 because salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ, not the age of the earth. 1264 01:32:56,068 --> 01:32:58,899 But there's an inconsistency with what the Bible teaches. 1265 01:32:58,899 --> 01:33:03,663 If you believe in millions of years, you've got death and bloodshed, suffering, and disease 1266 01:33:03,663 --> 01:33:08,134 over millions of years leading to man, because that's what you see in the fossil record. 1267 01:33:08,134 --> 01:33:11,433 The Bible makes it very clear death is a result of man's sin. 1268 01:33:11,433 --> 01:33:16,069 In fact, the first death was in the garden when God killed an animal, clothed Adam and Eve, 1269 01:33:16,069 --> 01:33:20,366 first blood sacrifice pointing towards what would happen with Jesus Christ. 1270 01:33:20,366 --> 01:33:24,032 He would be the one who would die once and for all. 1271 01:33:24,032 --> 01:33:27,596 Now if you believe in millions of years as a Christian, in the fossil record 1272 01:33:27,596 --> 01:33:30,863 there's evidence of animals eating each other, Bible says originally all the animals 1273 01:33:30,863 --> 01:33:35,366 and man were vegetarian. We weren't told we could eat meat until after the flood. 1274 01:33:35,366 --> 01:33:40,067 There's diseases represented in the fossil record like brain tumors, but the Bible 1275 01:33:40,067 --> 01:33:42,300 says when God made everything it was very good. 1276 01:33:42,300 --> 01:33:44,234 God doesn't call brain tumors very good. 1277 01:33:44,234 --> 01:33:48,143 There's fossilized thorns in the fossil record said to be hundreds of millions of years old, 1278 01:33:48,143 --> 01:33:50,972 the Bible says thorns came after the curse. 1279 01:33:50,972 --> 01:33:53,763 So these two things can't be true at the same time. 1280 01:33:53,763 --> 01:33:57,231 You know what? There's hundreds of dating methods out there, hundreds of them. 1281 01:33:57,231 --> 01:34:03,965 Actually, 90% of them contradict billions of years. And the point is, all such dating methods are fallible. 1282 01:34:03,965 --> 01:34:08,267 And I claim, there's only one infallible dating method, it's a witness who was there, 1283 01:34:08,267 --> 01:34:11,533 who knows everything, who told us. And that's from the word of God. 1284 01:34:11,533 --> 01:34:16,500 And that's why I would say that the earth is only 6,000 years. And, as Dr. Faulkner said, 1285 01:34:16,500 --> 01:34:20,429 there's nothing in astronomy, and certainly Dr. Snelling would say, there's nothing in geology 1286 01:34:20,429 --> 01:34:25,264 to contradict a belief in a young age for the earth and the universe. 1287 01:34:26,433 --> 01:34:29,065 Moderator: Thank you Mr. Ham. Mr. Nye, your five-minute rebuttal please. 1288 01:34:29,366 --> 01:34:32,200 Mr. Nye: Thank you very much. Let me start with the beginning. 1289 01:34:32,663 --> 01:34:37,233 If you find 45 million year old rock on top of 45 thousand year old trees, 1290 01:34:37,233 --> 01:34:42,467 maybe the rock slid on top. Maybe that's it. That seems much more reasonable explanation 1291 01:34:42,467 --> 01:34:49,332 than, "It's impossible." Then as far as dating goes, actually the methods are 1292 01:34:49,332 --> 01:34:55,033 very reliable. One of the mysteries, or interesting things that people in my business, 1293 01:34:55,033 --> 01:35:00,363 especially at the Planetary Society, are interested in is why all the asteroids seem to be 1294 01:35:00,363 --> 01:35:06,900 so close to the same date in age. It's 4.5, 4.6 billion years. 1295 01:35:06,900 --> 01:35:11,367 It's a remarkable thing. People at first expected a little more of a spread. 1296 01:35:11,367 --> 01:35:20,498 So, I understand that you take the Bible as written in English, translated countless, 1297 01:35:20,498 --> 01:35:26,100 not countless, but many, many times over the last three millenia as to be a more accurate, 1298 01:35:26,100 --> 01:35:29,033 more reasonable assessment of the natural laws we see around us 1299 01:35:29,033 --> 01:35:37,732 than what I and everybody in here can observe. That to me is unsettling, troubling. 1300 01:35:37,732 --> 01:35:47,535 And then about the disease thing, are the fish sinners? Have they done something wrong to get diseases? 1301 01:35:47,535 --> 01:35:55,133 That's sort of an extraordinary claim that takes me just a little past what I'm comfortable with. 1302 01:35:55,133 --> 01:36:00,863 And then, as far as you can't observe the past, I have to stop you right there. 1303 01:36:00,863 --> 01:36:02,702 That's what we do in astronomy. 1304 01:36:02,702 --> 01:36:06,131 All we can do in astronomy is look at the past. 1305 01:36:06,131 --> 01:36:13,600 By the way, you're looking at the past right now. Because the speed of light bounces off of me 1306 01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:18,764 and then gets to your eyes. And I'm delighted to see that the people in the back of the room 1307 01:36:18,764 --> 01:36:23,532 appear just that much younger than the people in the front. 1308 01:36:23,532 --> 01:36:32,099 So this idea that you can separate the natural laws of the past from the natural laws that we have now, 1309 01:36:32,099 --> 01:36:37,732 I think is at the heart of our disagreement. I don't see how we're ever going to agree with that 1310 01:36:37,732 --> 01:36:44,167 if you insist that natural laws have changed. It's, for lack of a better word, it's magical. 1311 01:36:45,063 --> 01:36:50,500 And I have appreciated magic since I was a kid, but it's not really what we want 1312 01:36:50,500 --> 01:37:02,266 in conventional, mainstream science. So, your assertion that all the animals were vegetarians 1313 01:37:03,100 --> 01:37:10,568 before they got on the ark. That's really remarkable. I have not spent a lot of time with lions, 1314 01:37:10,568 --> 01:37:14,733 but I can tell they've got teeth that really aren't set up for broccoli. 1315 01:37:14,733 --> 01:37:22,194 That these animals were vegetarians til this flood is something that I would ask you 1316 01:37:22,194 --> 01:37:28,961 to provide a little more proof for. I give you the lion's teeth, you give me verses 1317 01:37:28,961 --> 01:37:34,499 as translated into English over, what, 30 centuries? 1318 01:37:34,499 --> 01:37:40,132 So, that's not enough evidence for me. If you've ever played telephone, I did, I remember very well 1319 01:37:40,132 --> 01:37:43,163 in kindergarten where you have a secret and you whisper it to the next person, to the next person, 1320 01:37:43,163 --> 01:37:50,800 to the next person. Things often go wrong. So it's very reasonable to me that instead of lions being vegetarians on the ark, 1321 01:37:50,800 --> 01:38:01,797 lions are lions, and the information that you used to create your world view is not consistent with 1322 01:38:01,797 --> 01:38:11,399 what I, as a reasonable man, would expect. So, I want everybody to consider the implications of this. 1323 01:38:12,631 --> 01:38:23,667 If we accept Mr. Ham's point of view, that the Bible as translated into American English, 1324 01:38:23,667 --> 01:38:31,700 serves as a science text, and that he and his followers will interpret that for you, 1325 01:38:31,700 --> 01:38:39,965 Just, I want you to consider what that means. It means that Mr. Ham's word or his interpretation 1326 01:38:39,965 --> 01:38:48,427 of these other words, is somehow to be more respected than what you can observe in nature. 1327 01:38:48,427 --> 01:38:50,600 Than what you can find literally in your backyard, in Kentucky. 1328 01:38:51,177 --> 01:38:58,497 It's a troubling and unsettling point of view, and it's one I very much like you to address when you come back. 1329 01:38:59,332 --> 01:39:04,262 As far as the five races that you mentioned, it's kind of the same thing. 1330 01:39:04,262 --> 01:39:08,374 The five races were claimed by people who were of European descent, 1331 01:39:08,374 --> 01:39:12,431 and said, "Hey, we're the best! Check us out!" And that turns out to be, 1332 01:39:12,431 --> 01:39:17,130 if you've ever traveled anywhere or done anything, not to be that way. 1333 01:39:17,130 --> 01:39:20,297 People are much more alike than they are different. 1334 01:39:20,297 --> 01:39:26,067 So, are we supposed to take your word for English words translated over the last 30 centuries, 1335 01:39:26,067 --> 01:39:29,897 instead of what we can observe in the universe around us? 1336 01:39:30,999 --> 01:39:33,735 Moderator: Very good. And Mr. Ham, would you like to offer your five minute counter rebuttal? 1337 01:39:37,968 --> 01:39:41,534 Ken Ham: Uh, first of all, Bill, just so, I just don't want a misunderstanding here, 1338 01:39:41,534 --> 01:39:47,767 and that is, the 45,000-year-old wood, or supposedly 45,000 was inside the basalt. 1339 01:39:47,767 --> 01:39:54,300 Um, so, it was encased in the basalt. Uh, and that's why I was making that particular point. 1340 01:39:54,300 --> 01:39:59,367 And I would also say that natural law hasn't changed. As I talked about, you know, 1341 01:39:59,367 --> 01:40:03,728 I said we had the laws of logic, the uniformity of nature. And that only makes sense 1342 01:40:03,728 --> 01:40:07,668 within a biblical worldview anyway, of a creator God, who set up those laws, 1343 01:40:07,668 --> 01:40:11,200 and that's why we can do good experimental science, because we assume those laws are true, 1344 01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:20,764 and they'll be true tomorrow. I do want to say this. that you said a few times, you know, 1345 01:40:20,764 --> 01:40:26,034 Ken Ham's view or model. It's not just Ken Ham's model. We have a number of PhD scientists 1346 01:40:26,034 --> 01:40:31,433 on our own staff. I quoted, had video quotes, from some scientists. 1347 01:40:31,433 --> 01:40:40,301 It's Dr. Damadian's model. It's Dr. Fabich's model. It's Dr. Faulkner's model. It's Dr. Snelling's model. 1348 01:40:40,301 --> 01:40:44,658 It's Dr. Purdom's model. And so it goes on, in other words. And you go on our website, 1349 01:40:44,658 --> 01:40:50,861 and there are lots of creation scientists who agree with exactly what we're saying concerning 1350 01:40:50,861 --> 01:40:57,201 the Bible's account of creation. So it's not just "my model" in that sense. 1351 01:40:57,201 --> 01:41:05,168 There is so much that I can say, but, as I listen to you, I believe you're confusing terms 1352 01:41:05,168 --> 01:41:11,134 in regard to species and kinds. Because we're not saying that God created all those species. 1353 01:41:11,134 --> 01:41:16,100 We're saying God created kinds. And we're not saying species got on the ark, we're saying kinds. 1354 01:41:16,100 --> 01:41:19,799 In fact, we've had researchers working on what is a kind. For instance, there's a number of papers, 1355 01:41:19,799 --> 01:41:24,066 published on our website, where, for instance, they look at dogs. And they say, well, this one 1356 01:41:24,066 --> 01:41:28,600 breeds with this one, with this one, with this one. And you can look at all the papers around the world 1357 01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:31,835 and you can connect them all together and say that obviously represents one kind. 1358 01:41:31,835 --> 01:41:36,433 In fact, as they have been doing that research, they have predicted probably less than actually a thousand 1359 01:41:36,433 --> 01:41:41,966 kinds were on Noah's ark, which means just over 2,000 animals. And the average size of a land animal 1360 01:41:41,966 --> 01:41:48,367 is not that big so, you know, there was plenty of room on the ark. I also believe that 1361 01:41:48,367 --> 01:41:52,932 a lot of what you were saying was really illustrating my point. Uh, you were talking about tree rings 1362 01:41:52,932 --> 01:41:58,333 and ice layers and, just talking about kangaroos getting to Australia, and all sorts of things like that. 1363 01:41:58,333 --> 01:42:03,497 But see, we're talking about the past, when we weren't there. We didn't see those tree rings actually forming. 1364 01:42:03,497 --> 01:42:10,156 We didn't see those layers being laid down. You know, in 1942, for instance, there were some planes 1365 01:42:10,156 --> 01:42:15,033 that landed on the ice in Greenland. They found them, what, 46 years later, I think it was, 1366 01:42:15,033 --> 01:42:20,233 three miles away from the original location with 250 feet of ice buried on top of them. 1367 01:42:20,233 --> 01:42:24,496 So, ice can build up catastrophically. If you assume one layer a year, or something like that, 1368 01:42:24,496 --> 01:42:30,000 it's like the dating methods. You are assuming things in regard to the past that aren't necessarily true. 1369 01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:39,100 In regard to lions and teeth, bears, most bears have teeth very much like a lion or tiger, and yet, most bears 1370 01:42:39,100 --> 01:42:42,967 are primarily vegetarian. The panda, if you look at its teeth, you'd say, maybe it should be a 1371 01:42:42,967 --> 01:42:48,468 savage carnivore. It eats mainly bamboo. The little fruit bat in Australia has really sharp teeth, 1372 01:42:48,468 --> 01:42:51,900 looks like a savage little creature, and it rips into fruit. 1373 01:42:51,900 --> 01:42:56,600 Uh, so, just cause an animal has sharp teeth doesn't mean it's a meat eater. It means it has sharp teeth. 1374 01:42:56,600 --> 01:43:03,333 Uh, so again, it really comes down to our interpretation of these things. 1375 01:43:03,333 --> 01:43:07,443 I think too, in regard to the Missoula, uh, example that you gave, you know, 1376 01:43:07,443 --> 01:43:10,505 creationists do believe there's been post-flood catastrophism. 1377 01:43:10,505 --> 01:43:17,772 Noah's flood, certainly, was a catastrophic event. But then there's been post-flood catastrophism since that time as well. 1378 01:43:17,772 --> 01:43:22,134 And again, in regard to historical science, why would you say Noah was unskilled? 1379 01:43:22,134 --> 01:43:28,833 I mean, I didn't meet Noah, and neither did you. And you know, really, it's an evolutionary view of origins I believe 1380 01:43:28,833 --> 01:43:32,200 cause you're thinking in terms people before us aren't as good as us. 1381 01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:36,867 Hey, there are civilizations that existed in the past, and we look at their technology, 1382 01:43:36,867 --> 01:43:41,400 and we can't even understand today how they did some of the things that they did. 1383 01:43:41,400 --> 01:43:44,936 Who says Noah couldn't build a big boat? By the way, the Chinese and the Egyptians built boats. 1384 01:43:44,936 --> 01:43:49,134 In fact, some of our research indicates that some of the wooden boats that were built 1385 01:43:49,134 --> 01:43:52,739 had three layers interlocking so they wouldn't twist like that and leak, which is why, 1386 01:43:52,739 --> 01:43:58,866 here at the Creation Museum, we have an exhibit on the ark, where we've rebuilt 1% of the ark to scale 1387 01:43:58,866 --> 01:44:03,868 and shown three interlocking layers like that. And one last thing, concerning the speed of light, 1388 01:44:03,868 --> 01:44:09,667 and that is, I'm sure you're aware of the horizon problem. And that is, from a Big Bang perspective, 1389 01:44:09,667 --> 01:44:15,532 even the secularists have a problem of getting light and radiation out to the universe 1390 01:44:15,532 --> 01:44:20,700 to be able to exchange with the rest of the universe, to get that even microwave background radiation. 1391 01:44:20,700 --> 01:44:27,133 On their model, 15 billion years or so, they can only get it about halfway. 1392 01:44:27,133 --> 01:44:32,134 And that's why they have inflation theories, which means, everyone has a problem concerning the light issue. 1393 01:44:32,134 --> 01:44:36,000 There's things people don't understand. And we have some models on our website 1394 01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:40,463 by some of our scientists to help explain those sorts of things. 1395 01:44:40,463 --> 01:44:42,967 Moderator: Mr. Nye, your counter rebuttal. 1396 01:44:42,967 --> 01:44:46,100 Bill Nye: Thank you Mr. Ham, but I'm completely unsatisfied. 1397 01:44:46,100 --> 01:44:53,600 You did not, in my view, address this fundamental question. 680,000 years of snow ice layers 1398 01:44:53,600 --> 01:44:59,748 which require winter summer cycle. Let's say you have 2,000 kinds instead of seven. 1399 01:44:59,748 --> 01:45:05,734 That makes the problem even more extraordinary, multiplying eleven by what's, three and a half? 1400 01:45:05,734 --> 01:45:14,265 We get to 35... 40 species every day that we don't see, they're not extant. 1401 01:45:14,265 --> 01:45:20,166 In fact, you probably know we're losing species due to mostly human activity and the loss of habitat. 1402 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Then, as far as Noah being an extraordinary shipwright, I'm very skeptical. 1403 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The shipwrights, my ancestors, the Nye family in New England, took, spent their whole life learning to make ships. 1404 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, it's very reasonable, perhaps, to you that Noah had superpowers 1405 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and was able to build this extraordinary craft with seven family members, but to me, it's just not reasonable. 1406 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Then, uh, by the way, the fundamental thing we disagree on, Mr. Ham, 1407 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is this nature of what you can prove to yourself. This is to say, when people make assumptions 1408 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 based on radiometric data, when they make assumptions about the expanding universe, 1409 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when they make assumptions about the rate at which genes change in populations of bacteria 1410 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in laboratory growth media, they are making assumptions based on previous experience. 1411 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 They're not coming out of whole cloth. So, next time you have a chance to speak, 1412 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I encourage you to explain to us why... why we should accept your word for it that natural law changed 1413 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 just 4,000 years ago, completely. And there's no record of it. You know, there are pyramids that are older than that. 1414 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There are human populations that are far older than that, with traditions that go back farther that that. 1415 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And it's just not reasonable to me that everything changed 4,000 years ago. 1416 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 By everything, I mean the species, the surface of the Earth, the stars in the sky, 1417 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the relationship of all the other living things on Earth to humans. 1418 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's just not reasonable to me that everything changed like that. (Snaps fingers.) 1419 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And another thing I would very much appreciate you addressing: 1420 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious. And I respect that. 1421 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 People get tremendous community and comfort and nurture and support from their religious fellows 1422 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in their communities, in their faiths, in their churches. 1423 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And yet, they don't accept your point of view. 1424 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There are Christians who don't accept that the Earth could somehow be this extraordinary young age 1425 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because of all the evidence around them. And so, what is to become of them, in your view? 1426 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And by the way, this thing started, as I understand it, Ken Ham's creation model is based on the Old Testament. 1427 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So when you bring in, I'm not a theologian, when you bring in the New Testament, 1428 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 isn't that little, uh, out of the box? I'm looking for explanations of the creation of the world 1429 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as we know it, uh, based on what I'm gonna call science. Not historical science, not observational science. 1430 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Science: things that each of us can do akin to what we do, we're trying to outguess the characters 1431 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on murder mystery shows, on crime scene investigation, especially. 1432 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What is to become of all those people, who don't see it your way? 1433 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 For us, in the scientific community, I remind you, that when we find an idea that's not tenable, 1434 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that doesn't work, that doesn't fly, doesn't hold water, whatever idiom you'd like to embrace, we throw it away. 1435 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We are delighted. That's why I say, if you can find a fossil that has swum between the layers, bring it on! 1436 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You would change the world. If you could show that somehow the microwave background radiation 1437 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is not a result of the Big Bang, come on! Write your paper. Tear it up! 1438 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, your view, that we're supposed to take your word for this book written centuries ago, 1439 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 translated into American English, is somehow more important that what I can see with my own eyes, 1440 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is an extraordinary claim. And, for those watching online, especially, I want to remind you 1441 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that we need scientists, and especially engineers for the future. 1442 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Engineers use science to solve problems and make things. We need these people 1443 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so that the United States can continue to innovate and continue to be a world leader. 1444 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We need innovation, and that needs science education. Thank you. 1445 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: All right. Thank you both. Uh, now we're going to get to the things moving a little bit faster. 1446 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think they might be quite interesting here. It's 40 to 45 minutes, maybe a little bit more, actually. 1447 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We'll have a little more. For questions and answers submitted by our audience here in the Creation Museum. 1448 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Beforehand, we handed out these cards to everyone. I shuffled them here in the back, 1449 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and in fact, I dropped a lot of them, and then I scooped them up again. 1450 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And if you saw me sorting through them here, it was to get a pile for Mr. Nye and a pile for Mr. Ham, 1451 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so that we can alternate reasonably between them. Other than that, the only reason I will skip over one 1452 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is if I can't read it, or if it's a question that I don't know how to read because it doesn't seem to make any sense, 1453 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which sometimes happens just because of the way people write. (Audience laughs.) 1454 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What's going to happen is we're gonna go back and forth between Mr. Nye and Mr. Ham. 1455 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Each debater will have two minutes to answer the question addressed to him, 1456 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and then the other will have one minute to also answer the question, even though it was addressed to the other man. 1457 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I did pull one card aside here, because I noticed it was to both men. 1458 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So we may be able to get to that at some point. Mr. Ham, you've been up first, if you'll hop up first this time. 1459 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And Mr. Nye, you can stand by for your responses. Two minutes. 1460 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 How does creationism account for the celestial bodies: planets, stars, moons moving further and further apart? 1461 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And what function does that serve in the grand design? 1462 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: Well, when it comes to looking at the universe, of course, we believe, that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 1463 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I believe our creationist astronomers would say, "Yeah, you can observe the universe expanding." 1464 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Why God is doing that? In fact, in Bible it even says He stretches out the heavens. 1465 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And seems to indicate that there is an expansion of the universe. 1466 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so, we would say, yeah, you can observe that. That fits with what we call observational science. 1467 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Exactly why God did it that way? I can't answer that question, of course, 1468 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because, you know, the Bible says that God made the heavens for his glory. 1469 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that's why he made the stars that we see out there. And it's to tell us how great He is and how big He is. 1470 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And in fact, I think that's the thing about the universe. The universe is so large, so big out there. 1471 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 One of our planetarium programs looks at this. We go in and show you how large the universe is. 1472 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I think it shows us how great God is, how big He is, that He's an all-powerful God, 1473 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 He's an infinite God, an infinite, all-knowing God who created the universe to show us his power. 1474 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, can you imagine that, and the thing that's really remarkable in the Bible. 1475 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 For instance, it says on the fourth day of creation, and oh, he made the stars also. 1476 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's almost like, "Oh, by the way, I made the stars." Um, and just to show us He's an all-powerful God. 1477 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 He's an infinite God. So, "I made the stars." And he made them to show us how great He is. 1478 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And He is. He's an infinite creator God. And the more that you understand what that means, 1479 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that God is all-powerful, infinite, you stand back in awe. You realize how small we are. 1480 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You realize, wow, that God would consider this planet, is so significant that he created human beings here, 1481 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 knowing they would sin, and yet stepped into history to die for us and be raised from the dead. 1482 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Our verse, the free gift of salvation. Wow! What a God! 1483 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that's what I would say when I see the universe as it is. 1484 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Mr. Nye, one minute. And your response? 1485 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Bill Nye: There's a question that troubles us all from the time when we are absolutely youngest and first able to think. 1486 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that is, where did we come from? Where did I come from? 1487 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And this question is so compelling that we've invented the science of astronomy. 1488 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We've invented life science. We've invented physics. 1489 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We've discovered these natural laws so that we can learn more about our origin and where we came from. 1490 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 To you, when it says, He invented the stars also, that's satisfying. You're done. 1491 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Oh, good. Okay. To me, when I look at the night sky, I want to know what's out there. 1492 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I'm driven. I want to know if what's out there is any part of me, and indeed, it is. 1493 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The "oh, by the way" I find compelling you are satisfied. 1494 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And the big thing I want from you, Mr. Ham, is can you come up with something that you can predict? 1495 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Do you have a creation model that predicts something that will happen in nature? 1496 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Nye, the next question is for you. 1497 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 How did the atoms that created the Big Bang get there? 1498 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Bill Nye: This is the great mystery. You've hit the nail on the head. No, this is so, where did, what was before the Big Bang? 1499 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is what drives us. This is what we want to know. Let's keep looking. Let's keep searching. 1500 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Uh, when I was young, it was presumed that the universe was slowing down. 1501 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's a big bang, phrooo! Except it's in outer space, there's no air, so (quietly) it goes out like that. 1502 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so people presumed that it would slow down, that the universe, the gravity, especially, 1503 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 would hold everything together and maybe it's going to come back and explode again. 1504 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And people went out. And the mathematical expression is: is the universe flat? 1505 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's a mathematical expression. Will the universe slow down, slow down, slow down asymptotically without ever stopping? 1506 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Well, in 2004, Saul Perlmutter and his colleagues went looking for the rate at which the universe was slowing down. 1507 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Let's go out and measure it. And we're doing it with this extraordinary system of telescopes around the world, 1508 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 looking at the night sky, looking for supernovae. These are a standard brightness that you can infer distances with. 1509 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And the universe isn't slowing down. It's accelerating! The universe is accelerating in its expansion. 1510 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And do you know why? Nobody knows why! (audience laughs) Nobody knows why. 1511 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And you'll hear the expression nowadays, dark energy, dark matter, which are mathematical ideas that seem 1512 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to reckon well with what seems to be the gravitational attraction of clusters of stars, galaxies, and their expansion. 1513 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And then, isn't it reasonable that whatever's out there, causing the universe to expand, is here also? 1514 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And we just haven't figured out how to detect it. 1515 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 My friends, suppose a science student from the commonwealth of Kentucky pursues a career in science 1516 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and finds out the answer to that deep question? Where did we come from? What was before the Big Bang? 1517 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 To us, this is wonderful and charming and compelling. This is what makes us get up and go to work everyday, 1518 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is to try to solve the mysteries of the universe. 1519 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham, a response? 1520 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: Uh, Bill, I just want to let you know that there actually is 1521 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a book out there that actually tells us where matter came from. (Audience laughs.) 1522 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, the very first sentence in that book says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 1523 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And really, that's the only thing that makes sense. That's the only thing that makes sense of why, not just matter is here, 1524 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 where it came from, but why matter, when you look at it, we have information and language systems that build life. 1525 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We're not just matter. And where did that come from? Because matter can never produce information. 1526 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Matter can never produce a language system. Languages only come from intelligence. 1527 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Information only comes from information. The Bible tells us that the things we see, like in the book of Hebrews, 1528 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are made from things that are unseen. An infinite creator God who created the universe, 1529 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 created matter, the energy, space, mass, time universe, and created the information for life. 1530 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's the only thing that makes logical sense. 1531 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Alright, Mr. Ham, a new question here. The overwhelming majority of people in the 1532 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 scientific community have presented valid, physical evidence, such as carbon dating and fossils, 1533 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to support evolutionary theory. What evidence besides the literal word of the Bible supports creationism? 1534 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: Well, first of all, you know, I often hear people talking about "the majority". 1535 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I would agree that the majority of scientists would believe 1536 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in millions of years and the majority would believe in evolution, 1537 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but there's a large group out there that certainly don't. 1538 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But, first thing I want to say is, it's not the majority that's the judge of truth. 1539 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There have been many times in the past when the majority have got it wrong. 1540 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The majority of doctors in England once thought after you cut up bodies, 1541 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you could go and deliver babies and wondered why 1542 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the death rate was high in hospitals, 1543 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 till they found out about diseases caused by bacteria and so on. 1544 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The majority once thought the appendix was a leftover organ 1545 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 from evolutionary ancestry, so, you know, when it's okay, 1546 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 rip it out. When it's diseased, rip it out. Rip it out anyway. 1547 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But these days we know that it's for the immune system 1548 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and it's very, very important. 1549 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, you know, it's important to understand that just because 1550 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the majority believe something doesn't mean that it's true. 1551 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And then, I'm sorry, I missed the last part of the question there. 1552 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: What was the--let me make sure I have the right question here-- 1553 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So what evidence besides the literal word of the bible-- 1554 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: Okay, one of the things I was doing was making predictions. 1555 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I made some predictions. There's a whole list of predictions. 1556 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I was saying, if the Bible's right and we're all descendants 1557 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of Adam and Eve, there's one race. And I went through and talked about that. 1558 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If the Bible's right and God made kinds, I went through 1559 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and talked about that. And, so, really that question comes down 1560 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to the fact that we're again dealing with the fact that there's aspects 1561 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 about the past that you can't scientifically prove because 1562 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you weren't there, but observational science in the present. 1563 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Bill and I all have the same observational science. We're here in the present. 1564 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We can see radioactivity, but when it comes to then talking about the past, 1565 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you're not going to be scientifically able to prove that. 1566 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that's what we need to admit. We can be great scientists in the present, 1567 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as the examples I gave you of Dr. Damadian or Dr. Stuart Burgess 1568 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or Dr. Fabich and we can be investigating the present. 1569 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Understanding the past is a whole different matter. 1570 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Mr. Nye, one minute response. 1571 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Thank you, Mr. Ham. I have to disabuse you of a fundamental idea. 1572 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If a scientist, if anybody, makes a discovery that changes 1573 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the way people view natural law, scientists embrace him or her! 1574 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This person's fantastic. Louis Pasteur--you made reference to germs. 1575 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now, if you find something that changes, that disagrees with common thought, 1576 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that's the greatest thing going in science. 1577 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We look forward to that change. We challenge you-- 1578 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 tell us why the universe is accelerating. 1579 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Tell us why these mothers were getting sick. 1580 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And we found an explanation for it. And the idea that the majority 1581 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 has sway in science is true only up a point. 1582 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And then, the other thing I just want to point out, what you may 1583 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 have missed in evolutionary explanations of life 1584 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is it's the mechanism by which we add complexity. 1585 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The earth is getting energy from the sun all the time. 1586 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that energy is used to make lifeforms somewhat more complex. 1587 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: And that's time. 1588 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 New question for you, Mr. Nye. 1589 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 How did consciousness come from matter? 1590 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Bill Nye: Don't know. This is a great mystery. 1591 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 A dear friend of mine is a neurologist. She studies the nature of consciousness. 1592 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now I will say I used to embrace a joke about dogs. 1593 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I love dogs. I mean, who doesn't? 1594 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And you can say, this guy remarked, 1595 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "I've never seen a dog paralyzed by self-doubt." Actually, I have. 1596 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Furthermore, the thing that we celebrate, there are three sundials 1597 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on the planet Mars that bare an inscription to the future: 1598 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "To those who visit here, we wish you a safe journey and the joy of discovery." 1599 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's inherently optimistic about the future of humankind, 1600 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that we will one day walk on Mars. But the joy of discovery... 1601 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that's what drives us. The joy of finding out what's going on. 1602 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So we don't know where consciousness comes from. But we want to find out. 1603 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Furthermore, I'll tell you it's deep within us. I claim that I 1604 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 have spent time with dogs that have had the joy of discovery! 1605 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's way inside us! We have one ancestor, as near as we can figure. 1606 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, by the way, if you can find what we in science call "a second genesis", 1607 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this is to say, "Did life start another way on the earth?" 1608 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There are researchers at Astrobiology Institute, 1609 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 researchers supported by NASA, your tax dollars, 1610 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that are looking for answers to that very question. 1611 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Is it possible that life could start another way? 1612 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Is there some sort of life form akin to science fiction 1613 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that's crystal instead of membranous. This would be a fantastic 1614 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 discovery that would change the world! 1615 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The nature of consciousness is a mystery. 1616 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I challenge the young people here to investigate that very question. 1617 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I remind you--taxpayers and voters that might be watching-- 1618 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 if we do not embrace the process of science, 1619 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and I mean in the mainstream, we will fall behind economically. 1620 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is a point I can't say enough. 1621 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Mr. Ham, a one minute response. 1622 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: Bill, I do want to say that there is a book out there... (audience laughs) 1623 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that does document where consciousness came from. 1624 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And in that book, the one who created us said that he made man in His image, 1625 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and He breathed into man, and he became a living being. 1626 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so, the Bible does document that. That's where consciousness came from, 1627 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that God gave it to us. And, you know, the other thing I want to say is, 1628 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I'm sorta of a little, I have a mystery. That is, you talk about the joy of discovery 1629 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but you also say that when you die, it's over, and that's the end of you. 1630 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And if when you die, it's over, and you don't even remember you were here, what's the point of the joy of discovery anyway? 1631 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, in an ultimate sense? I mean, you know, you won't ever know you were ever here, 1632 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and no one who knew you will know they were ever here, ultimately, so what's the point anyway? 1633 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I love the joy of discovery because this is God's creation, 1634 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and I'm finding more out about that to take dominion for man's good and for God's glory. 1635 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham, a new question. 1636 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is a simple question, I suppose, but one that actually is fairly profound for all of us, in our lives. 1637 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What, if anything, would ever change your mind? 1638 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: Hmm. Well, the answer to that question is, 1639 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I'm a Christian, and as a Christian, I can't prove it to you, 1640 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but God has definitely, shown me very clearly 1641 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 through His Word, and shown Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. 1642 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The Bible is the Word of God. I admit that that's where I start from. 1643 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I can challenge people that you can go and test that. 1644 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You can make predictions based on that. You can check the prophecies in the Bible. 1645 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You can check the statements in Genesis. You can check that. 1646 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I did a little bit of that tonight. And I can't ultimately prove that to you. 1647 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 All I can do is to say to someone, "Look, if the Bible really is what it claims to be, 1648 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 if it really is the Word of God, and that's what it claims, then check it out." 1649 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And the Bible says, "If you come to God believing that He is, He'll reveal Himself to you." 1650 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And you will know. As Christians, we can say we know. 1651 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so, as far as the Word of God is concerned, no, no one's ever going to convince me 1652 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that the Word of God is not true. But I do want to make a distinction here. 1653 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And for Bill's sake. We build models based upon the Bible. 1654 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And those models are always subject to change. 1655 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The fact of Noah's flood is not subject to change. 1656 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The model of how the flood occurred is subject to change 1657 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because we observe in the current world, 1658 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and we're able to come up with different ways this could have happened or that could have happened. 1659 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that's part of that scientific discovery. That's part of what it's all about. 1660 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, the bottom line is that as a Christian, I have a foundation. 1661 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That as a Christian, I would ask Bill a question. What would change your mind? 1662 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, you said, even if you came to faith, you'd never give up believing in billions of years. 1663 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think I quoted you correctly. You said something like that recently. 1664 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So that would be also my question to Bill. 1665 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Time. Mr. Nye? 1666 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Bill Nye: We would just need one piece of evidence. 1667 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We would need the fossil that swam from one layer to another. 1668 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We would need evidence that the universe is not expanding. 1669 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We would need evidence that the stars appear to be far away, but in fact, they're not. 1670 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We would need evidence that rock layers can somehow form 1671 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in just 4,000 years instead of the extraordinary amount. 1672 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We would need evidence that somehow you can reset atomic clocks and keep neutrons from becoming protons. 1673 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You bring on any of those things and you would change me immediately. 1674 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The question I have for you though, fundamentally, 1675 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and for everybody watching. Mr. Ham, what can you prove? 1676 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What you have done tonight is spent most of the, all of the time 1677 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 coming up with explanations about the past. What can you really predict? 1678 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What can you really prove in a conventional scientific, 1679 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or a conventional, "I have an idea that makes a prediction and it comes out the way I see it?" 1680 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is very troubling to me. 1681 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Mr. Nye, a new question. Outside of radiometric methods, 1682 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 what scientific evidence supports your view of the age of the Earth? 1683 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Bill Nye: The age of the earth.. Well, the age of stars. 1684 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The... let's see... radiometric evidence is pretty compelling. 1685 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Also, the deposition rates. It was, it was, Lillel, a geologist, 1686 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who realized, my recollection, he came up with the first use of the term "deep time," 1687 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when people realized that the Earth had to be much, much older. 1688 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 In a related story, there was a mystery as to how the Earth could be old enough to allow evolution to have taken place. 1689 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 How could the Earth possibly be three billion years old? 1690 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Lord Kelvin did a calculation, if the sun were made of coal, and burning, 1691 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it couldn't be more than 100,000 or so years old. 1692 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But radioactivity was discovered. Radioactivity is why the Earth is still as warm as it is. 1693 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's why the Earth has been able to sustain its internal heat all these millenia. 1694 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And this discovery, it's something like, this question, without radiometric dating, 1695 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 how would you view the age of the Earth, 1696 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to me, it's akin to the expression, "Well, if things were any other way, things would be different." 1697 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is to say, that's not how the world is. Radiometric dating DOES exist. Neutrons DO become protons. 1698 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that's our level of understanding today. The universe is accelerating. 1699 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 These are all provable facts. That there was a flood 4.000 years ago, is not provable. 1700 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 In fact, the evidence for me, at least, as a reasonable man, is overwhelming that it couldn't possibly have happened. 1701 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There's no evidence for it. Furthermore, Mr. Ham, you never quite addressed this issue of the skulls. 1702 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There are many, many steps in what appears to be the creation, or the coming into being of you and me. 1703 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And those steps, are consistent with evolutionary theory. 1704 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: And that is time. Mr. Ham, your response. 1705 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: By the way, I just want people to understand, too, 1706 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in regard to the age of the Earth being about four and a half billion years, 1707 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 no Earth rock was dated to get that date. They dated meteorites, 1708 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and because they assumed meteorites were the same age as the Earth, 1709 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 leftover from the formation of the solar system, that's where that comes from. 1710 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 People think they dated rocks on the Earth to get the four and a half billion years. That's just not true. 1711 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And the other point that I was making, and I just put this slide back up, 1712 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 cause I happened to just have it here. And that is, 1713 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I said at the end of my first rebuttal time, that there are hundreds of physical processes 1714 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that set limits on the age of the Earth. Here's the point. 1715 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Every dating method involves a change with time. And there are hundreds of them. 1716 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, if you assume what was there to start with, and you assume something about the rate, 1717 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and you know about the rate, you make lots of those assumptions. Every dating method has those assumptions. 1718 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Most of the dating methods, 90% of them, contradict the billions of years. 1719 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There's no absolute age dating method from scientific method because you can't prove scientifically, young or old. 1720 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: And, here is a new question. 1721 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It starts with you, Mr. Ham. Can you reconcile the change in the rate continents are now drifting, 1722 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 versus how quickly they must have traveled at creation, 6,000 years ago? 1723 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: Uh, the rate. Sorry I missed that word. 1724 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Can you reconcile the speed at which continents are now drifting, today, to the rate 1725 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they would have had to have travelled 6,000 years ago, to reach where we are now? I think that's the question. 1726 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: Okay, I think I understand the question. Um, actually, this again, 1727 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 illustrates exactly what I'm talking about in regard to historical science and observational science. 1728 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We can look at continents today. And we have scientists who have written papers about this on our website. 1729 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I am definitely not an expert in this area and don't claim to be. 1730 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Uh, but there are scientists, even Dr. Andrew Snelling, our Ph.D. geologist, 1731 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 has done a lot of research here, too, as well. There are others out there into plate tectonics and continental drift. 1732 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And certainly, we can see movements of plates today. And if you look at those movements, 1733 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and if you assume the way it's moving today, the rate it's moving, that it's always been that way in the past, 1734 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 see that's an assumption. That's the problem when it comes to understanding these things. 1735 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You can observe movement, but then to assume that it's always been like that in the past, 1736 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that's historical science. And in fact, we would believe basically in catastrophic plate tectonics, 1737 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that as a result of the flood, at the time of the flood, there was catastrophic breakup of the Earth's surface. 1738 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And what we're seeing now is sort of, if you like, a remnant of that movement. 1739 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so, we do not deny the movement. We do not deny the plates. 1740 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What we would deny is that you can use what you see today as a basis for just extrapolating into the past. 1741 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's the same with the flood. You can say layers today only get laid down slowly in places, 1742 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but if there was a global flood, that would have changed all of that. 1743 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Again, it's this emphasis on historical science and observational science. 1744 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I would encourage people to go to our website at Answers in Genesis 1745 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because we do have a number of papers, in fact, very technical papers. 1746 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Dr. John Baumgardner is one who's written some very extensive work dealing with this very issue. 1747 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 On the basis of the Bible, of course, we believe there's one continent to start with, 1748 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 cause the waters were gathered here there into one place. So we do believe that the continent has split up. 1749 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But particularly, the flood had a lot to do with that. 1750 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: And time on that. Mr. Nye, a response. 1751 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Bill Nye: It must have been easier for you to explain this a century ago 1752 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 before the existence of tectonic plates was proven. 1753 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If you go into a clock store and there's a bunch of clocks, they're not all gonna say exactly the same thing. 1754 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Do you think that they're all wrong? 1755 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The reason that we acknowledge the rate at which continents are drifting apart, 1756 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 one of the reasons, is we see what's called sea floor spreading in the Mid-Atlantic. 1757 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The earth's magnetic field has reversed over the millennia 1758 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and as it does it leaves a signature in the rocks 1759 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as the continental plates drift apart. 1760 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So you can measure how fast the continents were spreading. 1761 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That's how we do it on the outside. 1762 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 As I said, I lived in Washington state when Mount St. Helen's exploded. 1763 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That's a result of a continental plate going under another continental plate 1764 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and cracking. And this water-laden rock led to a steam explosion. 1765 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That's how we do it on the outside. 1766 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Time. And this is a question for you Mr. Nye. But I guess I could put it to both of you. 1767 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 One word answer, please. Favorite color? (laughter) 1768 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Nye: I will go along with most people and say green. And it's an irony that green plants reflect green light. 1769 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Did I not say one word answer? (laughter) I said one word answer. 1770 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Nye: Most of the light from the sun is green. Yet they reflect it. It's a mystery. 1771 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Hamm: Well, can I have three words seeing as he had three hundred? 1772 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: You can have three. 1773 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Hamm: OK. Observational science. Blue. (laughter) 1774 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: All right. We're back to you, Mr. Nye. 1775 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 How do you balance the theory of evolution with the second law of thermodynamics? And I'd like to add a question here. 1776 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What is the second law of thermodynamics? 1777 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Nye: Oh, the second law of thermodynamics is fantastic. And I call the words of Eddington who said, 1778 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "If you have a theory that disagrees with Isaac Newton, that's a great theory. 1779 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If you have a theory that disagrees with relativity, wow, you've changed the world. That's great. 1780 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But if your theory disagrees with the second law of thermodynamics, I can offer you no hope. I can't help you." 1781 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The second law of thermodynamics basically is where you lose energy to heat. 1782 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is why car engines are about 30% efficient. That's it, thermodynamically. That's why you want the hottest explosion 1783 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you can get in the coldest outside environment. You have to have a difference between hot and cold. 1784 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that difference can be assessed scientifically or mathematically with this word entropy, this disorder of molecules. 1785 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But the fundamental thing that this questioner has missed is the earth is not a closed system. 1786 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So there's energy pouring in here from the sun. If I may, day and night. Ha, Ha. 1787 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 'Cause the night, it's pouring in on the other side. 1788 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so that energy is what drives living things on earth especially for, in our case, plants. 1789 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 By the way, if you're here in Kentucky, about a third and maybe a half of the oxygen you breathe is made in the ocean by phytoplankton. 1790 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And they get their energy from the sun. So the second law of thermodynamics is a wonderful thing. 1791 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It has allowed us to have every thing you see in this room because our power generation depends on the 1792 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 robust and extremely precise computation of how much energy is in burning fuel, 1793 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 whether it's nuclear fuel, or fossil fuel, or some extraordinary fuel to be discovered in the future. 1794 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The second law of thermodynamics will govern any turbine that makes electricity 1795 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that we all depend on; and allowed all these shapes to exist. 1796 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Any response, Mr. Hamm? 1797 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Hamm: Let me just say two things if I can. If a minute goes that fast along. 1798 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 One is, you know what, here's a point we need to understand. 1799 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You can have all the energy that you want, but energy or matter will never produce life. 1800 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 God imposed information, language system. And that's how we have life. 1801 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Matter by itself could never produce life, no matter what energy you have. 1802 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, you know, even if you've got a dead stick, you can have all the energy in the world in that dead stick, 1803 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's going to decay, and it's not going to produce life. 1804 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 From a creationist perspective, we certainly agree. I mean, before man sinned, you know, 1805 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 there was digestion, and so on, but because of the Fall, now things are running down. 1806 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 God doesn't hold everything together as He did back then. 1807 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So now we see, in regard to the second law of thermodynamics, we would say it's sort of, 1808 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in a sense, a bit out-of-control now, compared to what it was originally, which is why we have a running-down universe. 1809 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: And that's time. A new question for you, Mr. Ham. 1810 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Hypothetically, if evidence existed that caused you to have to admit that the Earth was older than 10,000 years, 1811 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and creation did not occur over six days, would you still believe in God and the historical Jesus of Nazareth 1812 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and that Jesus was the Son of God? 1813 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: Well, I've been emphasizing all night. You cannot ever prove using, you know, 1814 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the scientific method in the present, you can't prove the age of the Earth. 1815 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So you can never prove it's old. So there is no hypothetical. (Mr. Nye quietly chuckles.) 1816 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Because you can't do that. Now, we can certainly use methods in the present and making assumptions, 1817 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, creationists use methods that change over time. As I said, there's hundreds of 1818 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 physical processes that you can use, but they set limits on the age of the universe, 1819 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but you can't ultimately prove the age of the Earth, not using the scientific method. 1820 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You can't ultimately prove the age of the universe. 1821 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now, you can look at methods, and you can see that there are many methods that contradict billions of years, 1822 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 many methods that seem to support thousands of years. 1823 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 As Dr. Faulkner said in the little video clip I showed, there is nothing in observational astronomy 1824 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that contradicts a young universe. Now, I've said to you before, and I admit again, 1825 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that the reason I believe in a young universe is because of the Bible's account of origins. 1826 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I believe that God, who has always been there, the infinite creator God, revealed in His Word what He did for us. 1827 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, when we add up those dates, we get thousands of years. 1828 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But there's nothing in observational science that contradicts that. 1829 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 As far as the age of the Earth, the age of the universe, even when it comes to the fossil record. 1830 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That's why I really challenge Christians, if you're gonna believe in millions of years for the fossil record, 1831 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you've got a problem with the Bible. And that is, then, that you've got to have death and disease and suffering before sin. 1832 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, there is no hypothetical in regard to that. You can't prove scientifically, the age of the Earth or the universe, bottom line. 1833 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Mr. Nye. 1834 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Nye: Well, of course this is where we disagree. 1835 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You can prove the age of the earth with great robustness by observing the universe around us. 1836 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I get the feeling, Mr. Hamm, that you want us to take your word for it. 1837 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is to say your interpretation of a book written thousands of years ago, 1838 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as translated into American English, is more compelling for you than everything that I can observe in the world around me. 1839 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is where you and I, I think, are not going to see eye to eye. 1840 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You said you asserted that life cannot come from something that's not alive. Are you sure? 1841 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Are you sure enough to say that we should not continue to look for signs of water and life on Mars? 1842 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That that's a waste. You're sure enough to claim that. 1843 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That is an extraordinary claim that we want to investigate. 1844 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Once again, what is it you can predict? What do you provide us that can tell us something about the future; not just about your vision of the past? 1845 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: A new question, Mr. Nye. 1846 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Is there room for God in science? 1847 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Nye: Well, we remind us. There are billions of people around the world who are religious and who accept science 1848 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and embrace it, and especially all the technology that it brings us. 1849 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Is there anyone here who doesn't have a mobile phone that has a camera? 1850 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Is there anyone here whose family members have not benefited from modern medicine? 1851 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Is there anyone here who doesn't use e-mail? Is there anybody here who doesn't eat? 1852 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Because we use information sent from satellites in space to plant seeds on our farms. 1853 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That's how we're able to feed 7.1 billion people where we used to be barely able to feed a billion. 1854 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So that's what I see. That's what we have used science for the process. 1855 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Science for me is two things. It's the body of knowledge--the atomic number of rubidium. 1856 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And it's the process--the means by which we make these discoveries. 1857 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So for me that's not really that connected with your belief in a spiritual being or a higher power. 1858 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If you reconcile those two. Scientists, the head of the National Institutes of Health is a devout Christian. 1859 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There are billions of people in the world who are devoutly religious. 1860 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 They have to be compatible because those same people embrace science. 1861 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The exception is you, Mr. Ham. That's the problem for me. 1862 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You want us to take your word for what's written in this ancient text to be more compelling than what we see around us. 1863 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The evidence for a higher power and spirituality is, for me, separate. 1864 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I encourage you to take the next minute and address this problem of the fossils, this problem of the ice layers, 1865 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this problem of the ancient trees, this problem of the ark. I mean really address it. 1866 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so then we could move forward. But right now, I see no incompatibility between religions and science. 1867 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: That's time. Mr. Ham, response? 1868 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Ham: Yeah, I actually want to take a minute to address the question. 1869 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Let me just say this, my answer would be God is necessary for science. 1870 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 In fact, you know you talked about cell phones. Yeah, I have a cell phone. I love technology. 1871 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We love technology here at Answers in Genesis. And, I have e-mail, probably had millions of them 1872 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 while I've been speaking up here. And, satellites and what you said about the information we get, 1873 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I agree with all that. See, they're the things that can be done in the present. 1874 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that's just like I showed you. Dr. Stuart Burgess who invented that gear set for the satellite, creationists can be great scientists. 1875 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But, see, I say God is necessary because you have to assume the laws of logic. You have to assume the laws of nature. 1876 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You have to assume the uniformity in nature. And that is the question I had for you. 1877 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Where does that come from if the universe is here by natural processes. 1878 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, Christianity and science, the Bible and science, go hand in hand. 1879 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We love science. But again, you've got to understand. Inventing things, that's very different 1880 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 than talking about our origins. Two very different things. 1881 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Mr. Ham, a new question. Do you believe the entire Bible is to be taken literally? 1882 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 For example, should people who touch pigs' skin, I think it says here, be stoned? 1883 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Can men marry multiple women? 1884 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Ham: Do I believe the entire Bible should be taken literally? Remember in my opening address 1885 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I said we have to define our terms. So, when people ask that question, say literally, I have to know 1886 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 what that person meant by literally. Now, I would say this. 1887 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If you say "naturally" and that's what you mean by "literally", I would say, yes, I take the Bible "naturally". 1888 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What do I mean by that? Well, if it's history, as Genesis is, 1889 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's written as typical historical narrative, you take it as history. 1890 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If it's poetry, as we find in the Psalms, then you take it as poetry. 1891 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It doesn't mean it doesn't teach truth, but it's not a cosmological account in the sense that Genesis is. 1892 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There's prophecy in the Bible and there's literature in the Bible concerning future events and so on. 1893 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, if you take it as written, naturally, according to typal literature, and you let it speak to you 1894 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in that way, that's how I take the Bible. It's God's revelation to man. He used different people. 1895 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The Bible says that all scripture's inspired by God. So God moved people by his spirit 1896 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to write his words. And, also, there's a lot of misunderstanding in regard to scripture 1897 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and in regard to the Israelites. I mean we have laws in our civil government here in America 1898 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that the government sets. Well there were certain laws for Israel. And, you know, some people 1899 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 take all that out of context. And then they try to impose it on us today as Christians 1900 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and say, you should be obeying those laws. It's a misunderstanding of the Old Testament. 1901 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's a misunderstanding of the New Testament. 1902 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, you know, again, it's important to take the Bible as a whole. Interpreting scripture as scripture. 1903 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If it really is the word of God, there's not going to be any contradiction. Which there's not. 1904 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And by the way, when men were married to multiple women, there were lots of problems. 1905 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Laughter) ...and the Bible condemns that for what it is, and the Bible is very clear. 1906 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You know the Bible is a real book. There were people who did things that were not in accord with scripture, 1907 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and it records this for us. It helps you understand it's a real book. But marriage was one man for 1908 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 one woman. Jesus reiterated that in Matthew 19, as I had in my talk. 1909 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so those that did marry multiple women were wrong. 1910 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Time there. Mr. Nye, a response? 1911 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Nye: So it sounds to me, just listening to you over the last two minutes, 1912 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that there's certain parts of this document of the Bible that you embrace literally 1913 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and other parts you consider poetry. So it sounds to me, in those last two minutes, 1914 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like you're going to take what you like, interpret literally, and other passages you're gonna interpret as poetic or descriptions of human events. 1915 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 All that aside, I'll just say scientifically, or as a reasonable man, it doesn't seem possible that 1916 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 all these things that contradict your literal interpretation of those first few passages, 1917 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 all those things that contradict that, I find unsettling, when you want me to embrace the rest of it 1918 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as literal. Now, I, as I say, am not a theologian. But we started this debate, 1919 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Is Ken Ham's creation model viable? Does it hold water? Can it fly? Does it describe anything? 1920 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I'm still looking for an answer. 1921 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: And time on that. Mr. Nye, here's a new question. 1922 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I believe this was miswritten here because they've repeated a word. But I think I know what they were 1923 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 trying to ask. Have you ever believed that evolution was accomplished through way of a higher power? 1924 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think that's what they're trying to ask here. This is the intelligent design question, I think. 1925 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If so, why or why not? Why could not the evolutionary process be accomplished in this way? 1926 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Nye: I think you may have changed the question just a little but, no, it's all good. 1927 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: The word for word question is, have you ever believed that evolution partook through way of evolution? 1928 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (talking at the same time) Mr. Nye: Let me introduce these ideas for Mr. Ham to comment. 1929 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The idea that there's a higher power that has driven the course of the events in the universe 1930 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and our own existence, is one that you can not prove or disprove. And this gets into this expression, "agnostic." 1931 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You can't know. I'll grant you that. 1932 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 When it comes to intelligent design, which is, if I understand your interpretation of the question, 1933 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 intelligent design has a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of nature. 1934 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is to say, the old expression is if you were to find a watch in the field, 1935 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and you pick it up, you would realize that it was created by somebody who was thinking ahead, 1936 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 somebody with an organization chart, somebody at the top. And you'd order screws from screw manufacturers 1937 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and springs from spring manufacturers and glass crystals from crystal manufacturers. 1938 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But that's not how nature works. 1939 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is the fundamental insight in the explanation for living things that is provided by evolution. 1940 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Evolution is a process that adds complexity through natural selection, this is to say, 1941 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 nature has its mediocre designs eaten by its good designs. 1942 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so, the perception that there is a designer that created all this, is not necessarily true, 1943 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because we have an explanation that is far more compelling and provides predictions, and things are repeatable. 1944 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I'm sure, Mr. Ham here, at the facility, you have an organization chart. 1945 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I imagine you're at the top, and it's a top-down structure. 1946 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Nature is not that way. Nature is bottom-up. 1947 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is the discovery. Things merge up. Whatever makes it, keeps going. Whatever doesn't make it, falls away. 1948 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And this is compelling and wonderful and fills me with joy and is inconsistent with a top-down view. 1949 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham. 1950 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: What Bill Nye needs to do for me is to show me an example of something, some new function 1951 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that arose that was not previously possible from the genetic information that was there. 1952 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I would claim, and challenge you, that there is no such example that you can give. 1953 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That's why I brought up the example in my presentation of Lensky's experiments in regard to e coli. 1954 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And there were some that seemed to develop the ability to exist on citrate, 1955 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but as Dr. Fabich said, from looking at his research, 1956 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he's found that that information was already there. 1957 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's just a gene that switched on and off. And so, there is no example, because information that's there, 1958 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the genetic information of different animals, plants and so on, there's no new function that can be added. 1959 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Certainly, great variation within a kind, and that's what we look at. 1960 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But you'd have to show an example of brand-new function that never previously was possible. 1961 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There is no such example that you can give anywhere in the world. 1962 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Uh, fresh question here. Mr. Ham, name one institution, business, or organization, 1963 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 other than a church, amusement park, or the Creation Museum 1964 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that is using any aspect of creationism to produce its product. 1965 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: Any scientist out there, Christian or non-Christian, that is involved in 1966 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 inventing things, involved in scientific method, is using creation. 1967 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 They are, because they are borrowing from a Christian worldview. 1968 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 They are using the laws of logic. I keep emphasizing that. 1969 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I want Bill to tell me, in a view of the universe, as a result of natural processes, 1970 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 explain where the laws of logic came from. Why should we trust the laws of nature? 1971 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, are they going to be the same tomorrow as they were yesterday? 1972 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 In fact, some of the greatest scientists that ever lived: Isaac Newton, James Clerk Maxwell, Michael Faraday were creationists. 1973 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And as one of them said, you know, he's thinking God's thoughts after Him. 1974 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that's really, modern science came out of that thinking, that we can do experiments today, 1975 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and we can do the same tomorrow. And we can trust the laws of logic. We can trust the laws of nature. 1976 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And if we don't teach our children correctly about this, they're NOT going to be innovative. 1977 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And they're not going to be able to come up with inventions to advance in our culture. 1978 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so, I think the person was trying to get out that, see, you know, 1979 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 there are lots of secularists out there doing work. And they don't believe in creation. 1980 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And they come up with great inventions, yeah. But my point is, they are borrowing from the Christian worldview to do so. 1981 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And as you saw from the video quotes I gave, people like Andrew Fabich 1982 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and also Dr. Faulkner have published in the secular journals. 1983 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There's lots of creationists out there who publish. 1984 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 People mightn't know that they're creationists because the topic doesn't specifically pertain to creation vs. evolution. 1985 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But there's lots of them out there. In fact, go to our website. 1986 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There's a whole list there of scientists who are creationists, 1987 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who are out there doing great work in this world and helping to advance technology. 1988 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Mr. Nye 1989 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Bill Nye: There's a reason that I don't accept your Ken Ham model of creation. 1990 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Is that it has no predictive quality as you had touched on, 1991 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and something that I've always found troubling. 1992 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It sounds as though and next time around you can correct me. 1993 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It sounds as though you believe your world view, which is a literal interpretation of most parts of the Bible, is correct. 1994 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Well, what became of all those people who never heard of it? 1995 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Never heard of you? What became of all those people in Asia? 1996 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What became of all those first nations people in North America? 1997 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Were they condemned and doomed? I mean, I don't know how much time you've spent talking to strangers, 1998 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but they're not sanguine about that. To have you tell them that they are inherently lost or misguided. 1999 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's very troubling. And you say there are no examples in nature. 2000 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There are countless examples of how the process of science makes predictions. 2001 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Mr. Nye, since evolution teaches that man is evolving and growing smarter over time, 2002 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 how can you explain the numerous evidences of man's high intelligence in the past? 2003 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Bill Nye: Hang on, there's no evidence that man or humans are getting smarter. 2004 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 No, especially if you ever met my old boss. Heh, heh, heh. (laughter) 2005 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 No, it's that what happens in evolution. And there's, it's a British word that was used in the middle 1800's. 2006 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's survival of the fittest. And this usage, it doesn't mean the most push-ups or the highest scores on standardized tests. 2007 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It means that those that "fit in" the best. Our intellect, such as it is, has enabled us to dominate the world. 2008 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, the evidence of humans is everywhere. 2009 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 James Cameron just made another trip to the bottom of the ocean, in the deepest part of the ocean, 2010 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the first time since 1960. And when they made the first trip, they found a beer can. 2011 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Humans are everywhere. And so, it is our capacity to reason that has taken us to where we are now. 2012 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If a germ shows up, as it did, for example, in World War I, where more people were killed by the flu 2013 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 than were killed by the combatants in World War I. 2014 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That is a troubling and remarkable fact. If the right germ shows up, we'll be taken out. 2015 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We'll be eliminated. Being smarter is not a necessary consequence of evolution. 2016 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So far, it seems to be the way things are going because of the remarkable advantage it gives to us. 2017 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We can control our environment and even change it, as we are doing today, apparently by accident. 2018 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, everybody, just take a little while and grasp this fundamental idea. 2019 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's how you "fit in" with nature around you. So, as the world changed, as it did, for example, the ancient dinosaurs, 2020 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they were "taken out" by a worldwide fireball, apparently caused by an impacter. 2021 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That's the best theory we have. And we are the result of people, of organisms that lived through that catastrophe. 2022 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's not necessarily smarter. It's how you "fit in" with your environment. 2023 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Mr. Ham, a response? 2024 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ken Ham: I remember at university, one of my professors was very excited to give us some evidence for evolution. 2025 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 He said, "Look at this. Here's an example. These fish have evolved the ability not to see." 2026 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, he was going to give an example of blind cave fish. 2027 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And he said, "See, in this cave, they're evolving, because now the ones that are living there, their ancestors had eyes. 2028 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now these ones are blind." And I remember, I was talking to my professor, "But wait a minute! 2029 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now they can't do something that they could do before." Yeah, they might have an advantage in this sense. 2030 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 In a situation that's dark like that, those with eyes might have got diseases and died out. 2031 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Those that had mutations for no eyes are the ones that survived. 2032 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's not survival of the fittest. It's survival of those who survive. 2033 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And it's survival of those that have the information in their circumstance to survive, 2034 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but you're not getting new information. You're not getting new function. 2035 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There's no example of that at all. So, we need to correctly understand these things. 2036 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Alright. Um, we're down to our final question here, which I'll give to both of you. 2037 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And in the interest of fairness here, because it is a question to the both of you, 2038 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 let's give each man two minutes on this if we can, please. 2039 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And also, in the interest of you having started first, Mr. Ham, I will have you start first here. 2040 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You'll have the first word. Mr. Nye will have the last word. 2041 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The question is: what is the one thing, more than anything else, upon which you base your belief? 2042 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Ham: What is the one thing upon anything else which I base my belief? 2043 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Well, again, to summarize the things that I've been saying, there is a book called the Bible. 2044 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's a very unique book. It's very different to any other book out there. 2045 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 In fact, I don't know of any other religion that has a book that starts off by 2046 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 telling you that there's an infinite God, and talks about the origin of the universe, 2047 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the origin of matter, and the origin of light, and the origin of darkness, 2048 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the origin of day and night, and the origin of the earth, and the origin of dry land, 2049 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the origin of plants, and the origin of the sun, moon and stars, the origin of sea creatures, 2050 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the origin of flying creatures, the origin of land creatures, the origin of man, 2051 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the origin of woman, the origin of death, the origin of sin, the origin of marriage, 2052 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the origin of different languages, the origin of clothing, the origin of nations, 2053 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean it's a very, very specific book. 2054 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And it gives us an account of a global flood and the history and the tower of Babel, 2055 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and if that history is true, then what about the rest of the book? 2056 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Well, that history also says man is a sinner and it says that man is separated from God. 2057 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And it gives us a message, that we call the gospel, the message of salvation, that God's son stepped in history 2058 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that God's son stepped in history to die on the cross, to be raised from the dead, 2059 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and offers a free gift of salvation. 2060 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Because the history is true, that's why the message based on history is true. 2061 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I actually went through some predictions and listed others, and there's a lot more that you can look at, 2062 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and you can go and test it for yourself. If this book really is true, 2063 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it is so specific, it should explain the world, it should make sense of what we see. 2064 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The flood. Yeah, we have fossils all over the world. 2065 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The tower of Babel, yeah, different people groups, different languages, 2066 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they have flood legends very similar to the Bible. Creation legends similar to the Bible. 2067 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There's so much you can look at, and prophesy and so on. 2068 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Most of all, as I said to you, the Bible says, if you come to God, believing that he is, 2069 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he'll reveal himself to you. You will know. If you search after truth, 2070 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you really want God to show you, as you would search after silver and gold, 2071 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he will show you. He will reveal himself to you. 2072 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: Mr. Nye? 2073 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Nye: Would you repeat the question? 2074 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: The question is: What is the one thing, more than anything else, upon which you base your belief? 2075 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mr. Nye: As my old professor Carl Sagan said so often, 2076 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when you're in love, you want to tell the world. And I base my beliefs on the information 2077 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the process that we call science. 2078 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It fills me with joy to make discoveries every day of things I'd never seen before. 2079 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It fills me with joy to know that we can pursue these answers. 2080 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It is a wonderful and astonishing thing to me, that we are, you and I, 2081 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are somehow, at least one of the ways that the universe knows itself. 2082 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You and I are a product of the universe. It's astonishing. I admit, I see your faces. 2083 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That we have come to be because of the universe's existence. 2084 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And we are driven to pursue that. To find out where we came from. 2085 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And the second question we all want to know: 2086 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Are we alone? Are we alone in the universe? And these questions are deep within us, 2087 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and they drive us. So the process of science, the way we know nature is the most compelling thing to me. 2088 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I just want to close by reminding everybody what's at stake here. 2089 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If we abandon all that we've learned, our ancestors, what they've learned about nature and our place in it, 2090 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 if we abandon the process by which we know it, 2091 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 if we eschew, if we let go of everything that people have learned before us, 2092 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 if we stop driving forward, stop looking for the next answer to the next question, 2093 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we, in the United States, will be outcompeted by other countries, other economies. 2094 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now, that would be okay, I guess, but I was born here. I'm a patriot. 2095 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So we have to embrace science education. To the voters and taxpayers that are watching, 2096 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 please keep that in mind. We have to keep science education in science and science classes. Thank you. 2097 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Moderator: One tiny bit of important housekeeping for everyone here, the county is now under a level two snow emergency. 2098 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Drive home carefully. You'll have a lot to talk about, but drive carefully. 2099 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This debate will be archived at debatelive.org. That's debatelive.org, one word. 2100 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It will be found at that site for several days. You can encourage friends and family to watch and take it over. 2101 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Thanks so much to Mr. Nye and to Mr. Ham (Loud applause) for an excellent discussion. 2102 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I'm Tom Foreman, thank you, good night from Petersburg, Kentucky and the Creation Museum. 2103 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (applause) 2104 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (orchestral music) 2105 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ORDER TONIGHT! Here or online 2106 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (silence)