WEBVTT

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Oh, hi kids! I have an incredible message for you.

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Hey, can someone take Germa back to the petting zoo?

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Wow! That looks like fun.

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Now, where was I? Oh, yes.

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In 2014, kids 12 and under come free.

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Hey! Shouldn't the comets be in the Planetarium?

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For the entire year, kids 12 and under come free.

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Hey, T-Rex! You'd better get back to the dinosaur den.

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As you can see, it's a very exciting place.

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Now tell your parents!

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Kids 12 and under free in 2014 when accompanied by a paying adult.

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We hope to see you soon!

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Good evening. I'm pleased to welcome you to Legacy Hall

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of the Creation Museum in Northern Kentucky

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in the metropolitan area of Cincinnati.

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I'm Tom Foreman from CNN and I'm pleased to be tonight's

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moderator for this Evolution versus Creation debate.

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This is a very old question! Where did we come from?

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My answer is from Washington this morning by airplane.

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(laughter from audience)

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But there is a much more profound, longer answer

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that people have sought after for a long time.

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So tonight's question to be debated is the following:

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Is Creation a viable model of origins in today's modern, scientific era?

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Our welcome extends to hundreds of thousands of people

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who are watching on the internet at debatelive.org.

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We're glad you have joined us.

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Of course, your auditorium here,

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all of the folks who've joined us as well.

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We're joined by 70 media representatives from many

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of the world's great news organizations.

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We're glad to have them here as well.

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And now let's welcome our debaters: Mr. Bill Nye and Mr. Ken Ham.

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(audience applauds)

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We had a coin toss earlier to determine

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who would go first of these two men.

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The only thing missing was Joe Namath in a fur coat.

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But it went very well. Mr. Ham won the coin toss

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and he opted to speak first. But first, let me tell you

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a little bit about both of these gentlemen.

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Mr. Nye's website describes him as a scientist,

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engineer, comedian, author, and inventor.

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Mr Nye, as you may know, produced a number of award-winning TV shows,

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including a program he became so well-known for:

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Bill Nye the Science Guy.

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While working on the Science Guy show, Mr. Nye won

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seven national Emmy awards for writing, performing,

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and producing the show. Won 18 Emmys in five years!

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In between creating the shows, he wrote five kids books about science,

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including his latest title, <i>Bill Nye's Great Big Book of Tiny Germs</i>.

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Billy Nye is the host of three television series:

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his program, "The 100 Greatest Discoveries"--

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it airs on the Science Channel. "The Eyes of Nye"--

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airs on PBS stations across the country. He frequenly appears

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on interview programs to discuss a variety of science topics.

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Mr. Nye serves as Executive Director of the Planetary Society,

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the world's largest space interest group.

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He is a graduate of Cornell, with a Bachelors

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of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering.

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Mr. Ken Ham is the president and co-founder of Answers in Genesis,

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a bible-defending organization that upholds the authority

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of the scriptures from the very first verse.

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Mr. Ham is the man behind the popular, high-tech

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Creation Museum, where we're holding this debate.

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The museum has had 2 million visitors in six years

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and has attracted much of the world's media.

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The Answers in Genesis website, as well, trafficked

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with 2 million visitors alone last month. Mr. Ham is also

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a best-selling author, a much in-demand speaker,

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and the host of a daily radio feature carried on 700 plus stations.

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This is his second public debate on Evolution and Creation.

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The first was at Harvard, in the 1990s.

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Mr. Ham is a native of Australia. He earned

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a Bachelors degree in Applied Science, with an emphasis in

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Environmental Biology, from the Queensland's Institute of Technology,

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as well as a Diploma of Education at the University

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of Queensland in Brisbon, Australia.

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And now...Mr. Ham, you opted to go first, so you will

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be first with your five minute opening statement.

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Well, good evening. I know that not everyone watching

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this debate will necessarily agree with what I have to say,

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but I'm an Aussie and live over here in America

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and they tell me I have an accent and so it doesn't matter

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what I say, some people tell me. We just like to hear you saying it. (laughter)

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So...um...I hope you enjoy me saying it anyway.

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Well, the debate topic is this: Is Creation

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a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era?

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You know, when this was first announced on the internet,

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there were lots of statements-- like this one

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from the Richard Dawkins Foundation.

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"Scientists should not debate Creationists. Period."

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And this one from one of the Discovery.com websites.

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"Should Scientists Debate Creationists?"

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You know, right here I believe there's a gross misrepresentation

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in our culture. We're seeing people being indoctrinated

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to believe that Creationists can't be Scientists.

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I believe it's all a part of secularists hi-jacking the word "Science".

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I want you to meet a modern-day scientist who's a Biblical Creationist.

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My name is Stuart Burgess.

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I'm a professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in the U.K.

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I have published over 130 scientific papers on

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the science of design in Engineering and Biological systems.

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From my research work, I have found that the scientific evidence

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fully supports Creationism as the best explanation to origins.

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I've also designed major parts of spacecrafts,

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launched by ESA and NASA.

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So here's a biblical Creationist,

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who's a scientist, who's also an inventor.

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And I want young people to understand that.

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You know, the problem, I believe, is this: we need to define terms correctly.

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We need to define Creation/Evolution in regard to origins

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and we need to define science. And in this opening statement,

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I want to concentrate on dealing with the word "science".

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I believe the word "science" has been hijacked by secularists.

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Now, what is science?

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Well, the origin of the word comes from the Classical Latin "scientia",

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which means "to know". And if you look up a dictionary,

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it'll say science means "the state of knowing, knowledge".

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But there's different types of knowledge and I believe

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this is where the confusion lies.

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There's experimental or observational sciences, as we call it.

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That's using the scientific method, observation,

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measurement, experiment, testing. That's what produces

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our technology, computers, spacecraft, jet planes,

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smoke detectors, looking at DNA, antibiotics, medicines and vaccines.

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You see, all scientists, whether Creationists or Evolutionists,

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actually have the same observational or experimental science.

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And it doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist,

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you can be a great scientist.

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For instance, here's an atheist, who is a great scientist--

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Craig Venter, one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome.

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Or Dr. Raymond Damadian. He is a man who invented

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the MRI scan and revolutionized medicine. He's a biblical Creationist.

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But I want us to also understand molecules-to-man

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evolution belief has nothing to do with developing technology.

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You see, when we're talking about origins, we're talking about the past.

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We're talking about our origins. We weren't there.

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You can't observe that, whether it's molecules-to-man evolution,

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or whether it's a creation account.

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I mean, you're talking about the past.

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We'd like to call that Origins or Historical Science,

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knowledge concerning the past. Here at the Creation Museum,

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we make no apology about the fact that our Origins or Historical science

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actually is based upon the biblical account of origins.

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Now, when you research science textbooks being used

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in public schools, what we found is this:

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by and large, the Origins or Historical Science

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is based upon man's ideas about the past--for instance, the ideas of Darwin.

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And our research has found that public school textbooks

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are using the same word "science" for Observational Science

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and Historical Science. They arbitrarily define science

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as naturalism and outlaw the supernatural.

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They present molecules-to-man evolution as fact.

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They are imposing, I believe, the religion

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of naturalism or atheism on generations of students.

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You see, I assert that the word "science" has been hijacked

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by secularists in teaching evolution to force the religion

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of naturalism on generations of kids.

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Secular evolutionists teach that all life developed

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by natural processes from some primordial form.

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That man is just an evolved animal, which has great bearing

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on how we view life and death.

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For instance, as Bill states, "It's very hard to accept,

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for many of us, that when you die, it's over."

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But, you see, the Bible gives a totally different account of origins,

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of who we are, where we came from, the meaning of life, and our future.

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That through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin.

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But that God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son.

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Whoever believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life.

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So is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era?

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I say the creation/evolution debate is a conflict

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between two philosophical worldviews based on two different accounts

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of origins or science beliefs and creation

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is the only viable model of historical science confirmed

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by observational science in today's modern scientific era.

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And that is time. I had the unenviable job of being the time-keeper here.

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So I'm like the referee in football that you don't like,

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but I will periodically, if either one of our debaters

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runs over on anything, I will stop them in the name of keeping it fair for all.

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Uh, Mr. Ham, thank you for your comments. Now it's Mr. Nye's

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turn for a five minute opening statement. Mr. Nye.

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Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

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I very much appreciate you including me in your, uh, facility here.

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Now, looking around the room I think I see just one bow tie.

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Is that right? Just one. And I'm telling you, once you try it--

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oh, there's yes, two! That's great. I started wearing bow ties

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when I was young, in high school.

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My father showed me how. His father showed him.

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And there's a story associated with this, which I find remarkable.

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My grandfather was in the rotary, and he attended

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a convention in Philadelphia, and even in those days,

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at the turn of the last century, people rented tuxedos.

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And the tuxedo came with a bow tie--untied bow tie.

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So he didn't know how to tie it.

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So...wasn't sure what to do, but he just took a chance.

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He went to the hotel room next door, knocked on the door,

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"Excuse me? Can you help me tie my tie?"

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And the guy said, "Sure. Lie down on the bed."

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So...my grandfather wanted to have the tie on,

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wasn't sure what he was getting into, so he's said

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to have lain on the bed and the guy tied a perfect bow tie knot and,

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quite reasonably, my grandfather said,

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"Thank you. Why'd I have to lie down on the bed?"

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The guy said, "I'm an undertaker."

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(audience laughs)

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"It's the only way I know how to do it."

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Now that story was presented to me as a true story.

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It may or may not be. But it gives you something to think about.

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And it's certainly something to remember.

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So, here tonight, we're gonna have two stories

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and we can compare Mr. Ham's story to the story

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from what I will call the outside, from mainstream science.

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The question tonight is: Does Ken Ham's Creation Model hold up?

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Is it "viable"?

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So let me ask you all: what would you be doing if you weren't here tonight?

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That's right, you'd be home watching CSI.

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CSI Petersburg. Is that coming--I think it's coming.

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And on CSI, there is no distinction made between

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historical science and observational science.

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These are constructs unique to Mr. Ham.

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We don't normally have these anywhere in the world except here.

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Natural laws that applied in the past apply now.

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That's why they're natural laws. That's why we embrace them.

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That's how we made all these discoveries

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that enabled all this remarkable technology.

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So CSI is a fictional show, but it's based absolutely

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on real people doing real work.

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When you go to a crime scene and find evidence,

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you have clues about the past. And you trust those clues

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and you embrace them and you move forward to convict somebody.

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Mr. Ham and his followers have this remarkable view

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of a worldwide flood that somehow influenced everything that we observe in nature.

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A 500 foot wooden boat, eight zookeepers for 14,000 individual animals,

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every land plant in the world underwater for a full year?

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I ask us all: is that really reasonable?

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You'll hear a lot about the Grand Canyon, I imagine, also,

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which is a remarkable place and it has fossils.

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And the fossils in the Grand Canyon are found in layers.

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There's not a single place in the Grand Canyon

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where the fossils of one type of animal cross over

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into the fossils of another. In other words,

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when there was a big flood on the earth, you would expect

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drowning animals to swim up to a higher level.

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Not any one of them did. Not a single one.

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If you could find evidence of that, my friends, you could change the world.

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Now, I just wanna remind us all:

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there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious,

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who get enriched, who have a wonderful sense of community from their religion.

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They worship together, they eat together, they live

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in their communities and enjoy each others company. Billions of people.

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But these same people do not embrace the extraordinary view

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that the earth is somehow only 6,000 years old. That is unique.

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And here's my concern: what keeps the United States ahead,

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what makes the United States a world leader, is our technology,

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our new ideas, our innovations. If we continue to eschew science,

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eschew the process and try to divide science

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into observational science and historic science,

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we are not gonna move forward. We will not embrace natural laws.

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We will not make discoveries. We will not invent and innovate and stay ahead.

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So if you ask me if Ken Ham's Creation model is viable, I say no.

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It is absolutely not viable. So stay with us over the next period

00:27:24.533 --> 00:27:28.337
and you can compare my evidence to his. Thank you all very much.

00:27:28.337 --> 00:27:30.385
(audience applauds)

00:27:30.385 --> 00:27:31.785
(moderator) All right.

00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:35.099
Very nice start by both of our debaters here.

00:27:35.099 --> 00:27:37.706
And now each of one will offer a thirty minute,

00:27:37.706 --> 00:27:43.904
illustrated presentation to fully offer their case for us to consider.

00:27:43.904 --> 00:27:44.924
Mr. Ham, you're up.

00:27:57.377 --> 00:28:00.260
Well, the debate topic was "Is creation a viable model

00:28:00.260 --> 00:28:02.994
of origins in today's modern scientific era?"

00:28:02.994 --> 00:28:06.789
And I made the statement at the end of my opening statement:

00:28:06.789 --> 00:28:09.456
creation is the only viable model of historical science

00:28:09.456 --> 00:28:13.271
confirmed by observational science in today's modern scientific era.

00:28:13.271 --> 00:28:16.714
And I said what we need to be doing is actually defining

00:28:16.714 --> 00:28:22.133
our terms and, particularly three terms: science, creation, and evolution.

00:28:22.133 --> 00:28:25.008
Now, I discussed the meaning of the word "science"

00:28:25.008 --> 00:28:28.494
and what is meant by experimental and observational science briefly.

00:28:28.494 --> 00:28:30.631
And that both Creationists and Evolutionists

00:28:30.631 --> 00:28:35.964
can be great scientists, for instance. I mentioned Craig Venter, a biologist.

00:28:35.964 --> 00:28:37.830
He's an atheist and he's a great scientist.

00:28:37.830 --> 00:28:41.025
He was one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome.

00:28:41.025 --> 00:28:46.531
I also mentioned Dr. Raymond Damadian, who actually invented the MRI scanner.

00:28:46.531 --> 00:28:52.140
I want you to meet a biblical creationist who is a scientist and an inventor.

00:28:52.140 --> 00:28:54.874
Hi, my name is Dr. Raymond Damadian.

00:28:54.874 --> 00:28:58.045
I am a Young Earth Creation Scientist and believe that God

00:28:58.045 --> 00:29:01.214
created the world in six 24 hour days,

00:29:01.214 --> 00:29:03.833
just as recorded in the book of Genesis.

00:29:03.833 --> 00:29:07.547
By God's grace and the devoted prayers of my Godly mother-in-law,

00:29:07.547 --> 00:29:11.010
I invented the MRI scanner in 1969.

00:29:11.010 --> 00:29:14.463
The idea that scientists who believe the earth

00:29:14.463 --> 00:29:19.329
is 6,000 years old cannot do real science is simply wrong.

00:29:19.329 --> 00:29:21.194
Well, he's most adamant about that.

00:29:21.194 --> 00:29:24.796
And, actually, he revolutionized medicine! He's a biblical Creationist.

00:29:24.796 --> 00:29:29.426
And I encourage children to follow people like that, make them their heroes.

00:29:29.426 --> 00:29:33.196
Let me introduce you to another biblical Creation Scientist.

00:29:33.196 --> 00:29:34.998
My name is Danny Faulkner.

00:29:34.998 --> 00:29:38.714
I received my PhD in astronomy from Indiana University.

00:29:38.714 --> 00:29:41.604
For 26 and a half years, I was a professor

00:29:41.604 --> 00:29:43.792
at the University of South Carolina, Lancaster,

00:29:43.792 --> 00:29:47.295
where I hold the rank of distinguished professor emeritus.

00:29:47.295 --> 00:29:51.207
Upon my retirement from the university in January of 2013,

00:29:51.207 --> 00:29:56.428
I joined the research staff at Answers in Genesis. I'm a stellar astronomer.

00:29:56.428 --> 00:30:00.272
That means my primary interests is stars, but I'm particularly

00:30:00.272 --> 00:30:02.714
interested in the study of eclipsing binary stars.

00:30:02.714 --> 00:30:05.830
And I've published many articles in the astronomy literature,

00:30:05.830 --> 00:30:07.497
places such as the the Astrophysical Journal,

00:30:07.497 --> 00:30:10.445
the Astronomical Journal, and the Observatory.

00:30:10.445 --> 00:30:16.570
There is nothing in observational astronomy that contradicts a recent creation.

00:30:16.570 --> 00:30:19.626
I also mentioned Dr. Stuart Burgess,

00:30:19.626 --> 00:30:24.299
professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in England.

00:30:24.299 --> 00:30:28.882
Now he invented and designed a double-action worm gear set

00:30:28.882 --> 00:30:33.129
for the three hinges of the robotic arm on a very expensive satellite.

00:30:33.129 --> 00:30:36.294
And if that had not worked, if that gear set had not worked,

00:30:36.294 --> 00:30:38.541
that whole satellite would've been useless.

00:30:38.541 --> 00:30:43.209
Yet, Dr. Burgess is a biblical Creationist. He believes, just as I believe.

00:30:43.209 --> 00:30:45.714
Now, think about this for a moment.

00:30:45.714 --> 00:30:47.600
A scientist like Dr. Burgess,

00:30:47.600 --> 00:30:49.874
who believe in Creation, just as I do,

00:30:49.874 --> 00:30:51.859
a small minority in this scientific world.

00:30:51.859 --> 00:30:55.457
But let's see what he says about scientists believing in Creation.

00:30:55.457 --> 00:30:58.796
I find that many of my colleagues in academia are sympathetic

00:30:58.796 --> 00:31:02.093
to the creationist viewpoint, including biologists.

00:31:02.093 --> 00:31:06.208
However, there are often afraid to speak out because of the criticisms

00:31:06.208 --> 00:31:09.045
they would get from the media and atheists lobby.

00:31:09.045 --> 00:31:11.008
Now, I agree. That's a real problem today.

00:31:11.008 --> 00:31:14.464
We need to have freedom to be able to speak on these topics.

00:31:14.464 --> 00:31:18.128
You know, I just want to say, by the way, that Creationists,

00:31:18.128 --> 00:31:21.574
non-Christian scientists, I should say,

00:31:21.574 --> 00:31:23.743
non-Christian scientists are really borrowing

00:31:23.743 --> 00:31:26.863
from the Christian worldview anyway to carry out their experimental,

00:31:26.863 --> 00:31:30.209
observational science. Think about it. When they're doing

00:31:30.209 --> 00:31:32.827
observational science, using the scientific method,

00:31:32.827 --> 00:31:34.366
they have to assume the laws of logic,

00:31:34.366 --> 00:31:35.830
they have to assume the laws of nature,

00:31:35.830 --> 00:31:37.997
they have to assume the uniformity of nature.

00:31:37.997 --> 00:31:41.107
I mean, think about it. If the universe came about by natural processes,

00:31:41.107 --> 00:31:43.915
where'd the laws of logic come from? Did they just pop into existence?

00:31:43.915 --> 00:31:46.827
Are we in a stage now where we only have half-logic?

00:31:46.827 --> 00:31:49.604
So, you see, I have a question for Bill Nye.

00:31:49.604 --> 00:31:52.998
How do you account for the laws of logic and the laws of nature

00:31:52.998 --> 00:31:57.039
from a naturalistic worldview that excludes the existence of God?

00:31:57.039 --> 00:32:00.829
Now, in my opening statement I also discussed

00:32:00.829 --> 00:32:04.628
a different type of science or knowledge, origins or historical science.

00:32:04.628 --> 00:32:08.658
See again, there's a confusion here. There's a misunderstanding here.

00:32:08.658 --> 00:32:13.180
People, by and large, have not been taught to look at

00:32:13.180 --> 00:32:17.507
what you believe about the past as different to what you're observing in the present.

00:32:17.507 --> 00:32:20.350
You don't observe the past directly.

00:32:20.350 --> 00:32:24.685
Even when you think about the creation account.

00:32:24.685 --> 00:32:26.745
I mean, we can't observe God creating.

00:32:26.745 --> 00:32:29.561
We can't observe the creation of Adam and Eve. We admit that.

00:32:29.561 --> 00:32:32.137
We're willing to admit our beliefs about the past.

00:32:32.137 --> 00:32:35.339
But, see, what you see in the present is very different.

00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:39.620
Even some public school textbooks actually sort of acknowledge

00:32:39.620 --> 00:32:41.960
the difference between historical and observational science.

00:32:41.960 --> 00:32:45.556
Here is an Earth Science textbook that's used in public schools.

00:32:45.556 --> 00:32:48.599
And we read this. In contrast to physical geology,

00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:52.809
the aim of historical geology is to understand Earth's long history.

00:32:52.809 --> 00:32:54.310
Then they make this statement.

00:32:54.310 --> 00:32:57.094
Historical geology--so we're talking historical science--

00:32:57.094 --> 00:33:00.897
tries to establish a timeline of the vast number of physical

00:33:00.897 --> 00:33:03.207
and biological changes that have occurred in the past.

00:33:03.207 --> 00:33:06.812
We study physical geology before historical geology

00:33:06.812 --> 00:33:11.368
because we first must understand how Earth works before we try to unravel its past.

00:33:11.368 --> 00:33:14.558
In other words, we observe things in the present and then,

00:33:14.558 --> 00:33:18.161
okay, we're assuming that that's always happened in the past

00:33:18.161 --> 00:33:20.441
and we're gonna try and figure out how this happened.

00:33:20.441 --> 00:33:22.252
See, there is a difference between what you observe

00:33:22.252 --> 00:33:26.230
and what happened in the past. Let me illustrate it this way:

00:33:27.337 --> 00:33:29.203
If Bill Nye and I went to the Grand Canyon,

00:33:29.203 --> 00:33:32.598
we could agree that that's a Coconino sandstone in the Hermit shale.

00:33:32.598 --> 00:33:35.156
There's the boundary. They're sitting one on top of the other.

00:33:35.156 --> 00:33:38.570
We could agree on that. But you know what we would disagree on?

00:33:38.570 --> 00:33:40.777
I mean, we could even analyse the minerals and agree on that.

00:33:40.777 --> 00:33:43.602
But we would disagree on how long it took to get there.

00:33:43.998 --> 00:33:47.190
But see, none of us saw the sandstone or the shale being laid down.

00:33:47.190 --> 00:33:49.499
There's a supposed 10 million year gap there.

00:33:49.499 --> 00:33:50.893
But I don't see a gap.

00:33:50.893 --> 00:33:53.477
But that might be different to what Bill Nye would see.

00:33:53.477 --> 00:33:57.292
But there's a difference between what you actually observe

00:33:57.292 --> 00:34:00.320
directly and then your interpretation regarding the past.

00:34:00.320 --> 00:34:04.663
When I was at the Goddard Space Center a number of years ago

00:34:04.663 --> 00:34:06.688
I met Creationists and Evolutionists who were

00:34:06.688 --> 00:34:08.291
both working on the Hubble telescope.

00:34:08.291 --> 00:34:10.153
They agreed on how to build the Hubble telescope.

00:34:10.153 --> 00:34:13.189
You know what they disagreed on? Well, they disagreed on

00:34:13.189 --> 00:34:16.630
how to interpret the data the telescope obtained

00:34:16.630 --> 00:34:18.131
in regard to the age of the universe.

00:34:18.131 --> 00:34:21.123
And, you know, we could on and talk about lots

00:34:21.123 --> 00:34:23.033
of other similar sorts of things. For instance,

00:34:23.033 --> 00:34:26.376
I've heard Bill Nye talk about how a smoke detector works,

00:34:26.376 --> 00:34:30.667
using the radioactive element Americium. And, you know what?

00:34:30.667 --> 00:34:32.879
I totally agree with him on that. We agree how it works.

00:34:32.879 --> 00:34:35.691
We agree how radioactivity enables that to work.

00:34:35.691 --> 00:34:37.544
But if you're then gonna use radioactive elements

00:34:37.544 --> 00:34:39.330
and talk about the age of the Earth,

00:34:39.330 --> 00:34:41.131
you've got a problem cause you weren't there.

00:34:41.131 --> 00:34:44.530
We gotta understand parent elements, daughter elements and so on.

00:34:44.530 --> 00:34:47.423
We could agree whether you're Creationist or Evolutionist

00:34:47.423 --> 00:34:50.890
on the technology to put the rover on Mars, but we're gonna

00:34:50.890 --> 00:34:54.156
disagree on how to interpret the origin of Mars.

00:34:54.156 --> 00:34:55.876
I mean, there are some people that believed it

00:34:55.876 --> 00:34:58.891
was even a global flood on Mars, and there's no liquid water on Mars.

00:35:01.152 --> 00:35:03.927
We're gonna disagree maybe on our interpretation of origins

00:35:03.927 --> 00:35:07.057
and you can't prove either way because, not from

00:35:07.057 --> 00:35:10.290
an observational science perspective, because we've only got the present.

00:35:11.336 --> 00:35:16.125
Creationists and Evolutionists both work on medicines and vaccines.

00:35:16.125 --> 00:35:19.330
You see? It doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist,

00:35:19.330 --> 00:35:22.664
all scientists have the same experimental observational science.

00:35:22.664 --> 00:35:26.134
So I have a question for Bill Nye: Can you name one piece

00:35:26.134 --> 00:35:28.887
of technology that could only have been developed

00:35:28.887 --> 00:35:32.356
starting with the belief in molecules-to-man evolution?

00:35:33.217 --> 00:35:34.892
Now, here's another important fact.

00:35:35.553 --> 00:35:38.762
Creationists and Evolutionists all have the same evidence.

00:35:38.762 --> 00:35:42.897
Bill Nye and I have the same Grand Canyon. We don't disagree on that.

00:35:42.897 --> 00:35:46.457
We all have the same fish fossils. This is one from the Creation Museum.

00:35:46.457 --> 00:35:50.235
The same dinosaur skeleton, the same animals, the same humans,

00:35:50.235 --> 00:35:54.456
the same DNA, the same radioactive decay elements that we see.

00:35:54.456 --> 00:35:59.092
We have the same universe...actually, we all have the same evidences.

00:35:59.784 --> 00:36:01.332
It's not the evidences that are different.

00:36:01.332 --> 00:36:06.115
It's a battle over the same evidence in regard to how we interpret the past.

00:36:06.115 --> 00:36:07.250
And you know why that is?

00:36:07.250 --> 00:36:09.731
Cause it's really a battle over worldviews and starting points.

00:36:09.731 --> 00:36:11.922
It's a battle over philosophical worldviews

00:36:11.922 --> 00:36:14.721
and starting points, but the same evidence. Now, I admit,

00:36:14.721 --> 00:36:17.389
my starting point is that God is the ultimate authority.

00:36:17.389 --> 00:36:21.427
But if someone doesn't accept that, then man has to be the ultimate authority.

00:36:21.427 --> 00:36:23.762
And that's really the difference when it comes down to it.

00:36:23.762 --> 00:36:26.587
You see, I've been emphasizing the difference

00:36:26.587 --> 00:36:29.364
between historical origin science, knowledge about

00:36:29.364 --> 00:36:30.620
the past when you weren't there,

00:36:30.620 --> 00:36:33.133
and we need to understand that we weren't there.

00:36:33.133 --> 00:36:36.244
Or experimental observational science, using

00:36:36.244 --> 00:36:38.412
your five senses in the present, the scientific method,

00:36:38.412 --> 00:36:41.021
what you can directly observe, test, repeat.

00:36:42.666 --> 00:36:44.120
There's a big difference between those two.

00:36:44.120 --> 00:36:46.727
And that's not what's being taught in our public schools

00:36:46.727 --> 00:36:48.566
and that's why kids aren't being taught to think

00:36:48.566 --> 00:36:51.600
critically and correctly about the origins issue.

00:36:51.600 --> 00:36:53.644
But you know, it's also important to understand,

00:36:53.644 --> 00:36:56.692
when talking about Creation and Evolution, both involve

00:36:56.692 --> 00:36:59.231
historical science and observational science.

00:36:59.231 --> 00:37:02.225
You see, the role of observational science is this:

00:37:02.225 --> 00:37:03.816
it can be used to confirm or otherwise

00:37:03.816 --> 00:37:07.375
one's historical science based on one's starting point.

00:37:07.627 --> 00:37:10.889
Now, when you think about the debate topic and what I have

00:37:10.889 --> 00:37:14.296
learned concerning creation, if our origins

00:37:14.296 --> 00:37:17.757
or historical science based on the bible, the bible's account

00:37:17.757 --> 00:37:21.073
of origins is true, then there should be predictions

00:37:21.073 --> 00:37:24.342
from this that we can test, using observational science.

00:37:24.342 --> 00:37:26.839
And there are. For instance, based on the bible,

00:37:26.839 --> 00:37:29.557
we'd expect to find evidence concerning an intelligence,

00:37:29.557 --> 00:37:31.918
confirming an intelligence produced life.

00:37:31.918 --> 00:37:35.093
We'd expect to find evidence confirming after their kind.

00:37:35.093 --> 00:37:38.056
The bible says God made kinds of animals and plants

00:37:38.056 --> 00:37:41.088
after their kind, implying each kind produces it's own,

00:37:41.088 --> 00:37:43.304
not that one kind changes into another.

00:37:43.304 --> 00:37:47.156
You'd expect to find evidence confirming a global flood of Noah's day.

00:37:47.156 --> 00:37:50.891
Evidence confirming one race of humans because we

00:37:50.891 --> 00:37:54.500
all go back to Adam and Eve, biologically, that would mean there's one race.

00:37:54.500 --> 00:37:57.627
Evidence confirming the Tower of Babel, that God gave different languages.

00:37:57.627 --> 00:38:00.166
Evidence confirming a young universe.

00:38:00.166 --> 00:38:04.095
Now, I can't go through all of those, but a couple of them we'll look at briefly.

00:38:04.095 --> 00:38:07.557
After their kind, evidence confirming that--

00:38:07.557 --> 00:38:12.969
in the Creation Museum, we have a display featuring replicas,

00:38:12.969 --> 00:38:15.593
actually, of Darwin's finches. They're called Darwin's finches.

00:38:15.593 --> 00:38:18.260
Darwin collected finches from the Galapagos

00:38:18.260 --> 00:38:21.628
and took them back to England and we see the different species,

00:38:21.628 --> 00:38:24.494
the different beak sizes here. And, you know,

00:38:24.494 --> 00:38:27.187
from the specimens Darwin obtained in the Galapagos,

00:38:27.187 --> 00:38:31.180
he actually pondered these things and how do you explain this.

00:38:31.180 --> 00:38:36.562
And in his notes, actually, he came up with this diagram here, a tree.

00:38:36.562 --> 00:38:42.004
And he actually said, "I think." So he was talking about

00:38:42.004 --> 00:38:46.533
different species and maybe those species came from some common ancestor,

00:38:46.533 --> 00:38:49.504
but, actually, when it comes to finches, we actually would agree,

00:38:49.504 --> 00:38:54.160
as Creationists, that different finch species came from a common ancestor, but a finch.

00:38:54.160 --> 00:38:56.382
That's what they would have to come from.

00:38:56.382 --> 00:39:00.460
And see, Darwin wasn't just thinking about species.

00:39:01.244 --> 00:39:03.490
Darwin had a much bigger picture in mind.

00:39:03.490 --> 00:39:07.360
When you look at the Origins of Species and read that book,

00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:10.870
you'll find he made this statement: from such low and intermediate form,

00:39:10.870 --> 00:39:12.970
both animals and plants may have been developed;

00:39:12.970 --> 00:39:16.126
and, if we admit this, we must likewise admit that

00:39:16.126 --> 00:39:18.966
all organic beings which have ever lived on this Earth

00:39:18.966 --> 00:39:22.037
may be descended from some one primordial form.

00:39:22.037 --> 00:39:27.534
So he had in mind what we today know as an evolutionary tree of life,

00:39:27.534 --> 00:39:31.323
that all life has arisen from some primordial form.

00:39:31.323 --> 00:39:34.992
Now, when you consider the classifications system,

00:39:34.992 --> 00:39:37.570
kingdom phylum class or the family genus species,

00:39:37.570 --> 00:39:41.690
we would say, as Creationists, we have many creation scientists

00:39:41.690 --> 00:39:43.464
that research this and, for lots of reasons,

00:39:43.464 --> 00:39:47.057
I would say, the kind in Genesis 1 is really more at

00:39:47.057 --> 00:39:50.591
the family level of classification. For instance, there's one dog kind.

00:39:50.591 --> 00:39:53.405
There's one cat kind. Even though you have different

00:39:53.405 --> 00:39:55.567
generative species, that would mean, by the way,

00:39:55.567 --> 00:39:57.891
you didn't need anywhere near the number of animals

00:39:57.891 --> 00:39:59.236
on the ark as people think.

00:39:59.236 --> 00:40:00.826
You wouldn't need all the species of dogs, just two.

00:40:00.826 --> 00:40:02.501
Not all the species of cats--just two.

00:40:02.501 --> 00:40:06.788
And, you see, based on the biblical account there in Genesis One,

00:40:06.788 --> 00:40:10.257
Creationists have drawn up what they believe is a creation origin.

00:40:10.257 --> 00:40:13.130
In other words, they're saying, "Look. There's great variation

00:40:13.130 --> 00:40:16.212
in the genetics of dogs and finches and so on."

00:40:16.212 --> 00:40:19.436
And so, over time, particularly after Noah's flood,

00:40:19.436 --> 00:40:21.502
you'd expect if there were two dogs, for instance,

00:40:21.502 --> 00:40:24.671
you could end up with different species of dogs because

00:40:24.671 --> 00:40:28.714
there's an incredible amount of variability in the genes of any creature.

00:40:28.714 --> 00:40:33.170
And so you'd expect these different species up here, but there's limits.

00:40:33.170 --> 00:40:36.270
Dogs will always be dogs, finches will always be finches.

00:40:36.270 --> 00:40:41.856
Now, as a Creationist, I maintain that observational science

00:40:41.856 --> 00:40:45.714
actually confirms this model, based on the bible.

00:40:45.714 --> 00:40:49.236
For instance, take dogs. Okay?

00:40:49.236 --> 00:40:53.524
In a scientific paper dated January 2014--that's this year--

00:40:53.524 --> 00:40:57.658
scientists working at the University of California stated this:

00:40:57.658 --> 00:41:00.544
We provide several lines of evidence supporting

00:41:00.544 --> 00:41:04.377
a single origin for dogs, and disfavoring alternative models

00:41:04.377 --> 00:41:06.836
in which dog lineages arise separately

00:41:06.836 --> 00:41:09.324
from geographically distinct wolf populations.

00:41:09.324 --> 00:41:11.546
And they put this diagram in the paper.

00:41:11.546 --> 00:41:14.203
By the way, that diagram is very, very similar

00:41:14.203 --> 00:41:17.827
to this diagram that Creationists proposed based upon

00:41:17.827 --> 00:41:20.715
the creation account in Genesis. In other words,

00:41:20.715 --> 00:41:22.934
you have a common dog ancestor that gives rise

00:41:22.934 --> 00:41:25.325
to the different species of dogs, and that's exactly

00:41:25.325 --> 00:41:28.134
what we're saying here. Now, in the Creation Museum,

00:41:28.134 --> 00:41:31.259
we actually show the finches here and you see the finches

00:41:31.259 --> 00:41:34.792
with their different beaks, beside dogs skulls, different species of dogs.

00:41:34.792 --> 00:41:37.547
By the way, there's more variation in the dog skeleton

00:41:37.547 --> 00:41:40.427
here than there are in these finches. Yet, the dogs,

00:41:40.427 --> 00:41:42.876
wow, that's never used as an example of evolution,

00:41:42.876 --> 00:41:45.789
but the finches are, particularly in the public school textbooks.

00:41:45.789 --> 00:41:48.963
Students are taught, "Ah! See the changes that are occurring here?"

00:41:48.963 --> 00:41:51.093
And here's another problem that we've got.

00:41:51.093 --> 00:41:55.624
Not only has the word "science" been hijacked by secularists,

00:41:55.624 --> 00:41:59.791
I believe the word "evolution" has been hijacked by secularists.

00:41:59.791 --> 00:42:03.860
The word "evolution" has been hijacked using what I call a bait and switch.

00:42:03.860 --> 00:42:05.161
Let me explain to you.

00:42:06.130 --> 00:42:09.766
The word "evolution" is being used in public school textbooks,

00:42:09.766 --> 00:42:11.826
and we often see it in documentaries and so on,

00:42:11.826 --> 00:42:15.265
is used for observable changes that we would agree with,

00:42:15.265 --> 00:42:19.244
and then used for unobservable changes, such as molecules-to-man.

00:42:19.244 --> 00:42:21.724
Let me explain to you what's really going on because

00:42:21.724 --> 00:42:23.410
I was a science teacher in the public schools

00:42:23.410 --> 00:42:26.125
and I know what the students were taught and I checked

00:42:26.125 --> 00:42:28.134
the public school textbooks anyway to know what they're taught.

00:42:28.379 --> 00:42:30.790
See, students are taught today, look, there's all

00:42:30.790 --> 00:42:33.595
these different animals, plants, but they're all part

00:42:33.595 --> 00:42:37.450
of this great, big tree of life that goes back to some primordial form.

00:42:37.450 --> 00:42:39.572
And, look, we see changes. Changes in finches,

00:42:39.572 --> 00:42:42.572
changes in dogs and so on. Now, we don't deny the changes.

00:42:42.572 --> 00:42:45.566
You see that. You see different species of finches, different species of dogs.

00:42:45.566 --> 00:42:48.274
But then they put it all together in this evolutionary tree--

00:42:48.274 --> 00:42:50.499
but that's what you don't observe. You don't observe that.

00:42:50.499 --> 00:42:54.330
That's belief there. That's the historical science

00:42:54.330 --> 00:42:57.994
that I would say is wrong. But, you know, what you do observe,

00:42:57.994 --> 00:43:02.607
you do observe different species of dogs, different species of finches,

00:43:02.607 --> 00:43:06.708
but then there are limits. You don't see one kind changing into another.

00:43:06.708 --> 00:43:12.124
Actually, we're told that if you teach creation

00:43:12.124 --> 00:43:14.238
in the public schools as teaching religion,

00:43:14.238 --> 00:43:17.099
if you teach evolution as science, I'm gonna say, "Wait a minute!"

00:43:17.099 --> 00:43:21.283
Actually, the creation model here, based upon the Bible,

00:43:21.283 --> 00:43:24.404
observational science confirms this. This is what you're observe!

00:43:24.404 --> 00:43:25.787
You don't observe this tree.

00:43:25.787 --> 00:43:29.499
Actually, it's the public school textbooks that are teaching a belief,

00:43:29.499 --> 00:43:32.213
imposing it on students, and they need to be teaching them

00:43:32.213 --> 00:43:36.124
observational science to understand the reality of what's happening.

00:43:36.877 --> 00:43:40.660
Now, what we found is that public school textbooks present

00:43:40.660 --> 00:43:44.674
the evolutionary "tree" as science, but reject the creation "orchard" as religion.

00:43:44.674 --> 00:43:47.459
But observational science confirms the creation orchard--

00:43:47.459 --> 00:43:50.796
so public school textbooks are rejecting observational science

00:43:50.796 --> 00:43:53.878
and imposing a naturalistic religion on students.

00:43:53.878 --> 00:43:56.938
The word "evolution" has been hijacked using a bait and switch

00:43:56.938 --> 00:44:00.403
to indoctrinate students to accept evolutionary belief

00:44:00.403 --> 00:44:02.341
as observational science.

00:44:02.341 --> 00:44:05.918
Let me introduce you to another scientist, Richard Lenski,

00:44:05.918 --> 00:44:08.675
from Michigan State University. He's a great scientist,

00:44:08.675 --> 00:44:11.161
he's known for culturing e-coli in the lab...

00:44:11.161 --> 00:44:15.431
and he found there was some e-coli that actually seemed

00:44:15.431 --> 00:44:22.939
to develop the ability to grow on cistrate on substrate.

00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:28.241
But Richard Lenski is here, mentioned in this book,

00:44:28.241 --> 00:44:30.908
and it's called "Evolution in the Lab".

00:44:30.908 --> 00:44:35.500
So the ability to grow on citrate is said to be evolution.

00:44:35.500 --> 00:44:39.842
And there are those that say, "Hey! This is against the Creationist."

00:44:39.842 --> 00:44:42.895
For instance, Jerry Coin from University of Chicago says,

00:44:42.895 --> 00:44:45.587
"Lenski's experiment is also yet another poke in the eye

00:44:45.587 --> 00:44:47.228
for anti-evolutionists."

00:44:47.228 --> 00:44:50.589
He says, "The thing I like most is it says you can get

00:44:50.589 --> 00:44:53.705
these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events."

00:44:53.705 --> 00:44:57.167
But is it a poke in the eye for anti-evolutionists?

00:44:57.167 --> 00:45:01.371
Is it really seeing complex traits evolving?

00:45:01.371 --> 00:45:06.198
What does it mean that some of these bacteria are able to grow on citrate?

00:45:06.198 --> 00:45:10.240
Let me introduce you to another biblical Creationist, who is a scientist.

00:45:10.240 --> 00:45:12.761
Hi, my name's Dr. Andrew Fabich.

00:45:12.761 --> 00:45:16.450
I got my PhD from University of Oklahoma in Microbiology.

00:45:16.450 --> 00:45:20.075
I teach at Liberty University and I do research on e-coli in the intestine.

00:45:20.075 --> 00:45:25.660
I've published it in secular journals from the American Society for Microbiology,

00:45:25.660 --> 00:45:30.971
including infection immunity and applied environmental microbiology

00:45:30.971 --> 00:45:32.361
as well as several others.

00:45:32.361 --> 00:45:35.320
My work has been cited even in the past year in the journals Nature,

00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:38.700
Science Translational Medicine, Public Library of Science,

00:45:38.700 --> 00:45:41.660
Public Library of Science Genetics. It's cited regularly

00:45:41.660 --> 00:45:45.905
in those journals and while I was taught nothing but evolution,

00:45:45.905 --> 00:45:48.142
I don't accept that position.

00:45:48.142 --> 00:45:50.263
I do my research from a creation perspective.

00:45:50.263 --> 00:45:54.365
When I look at the evidence that people cite as e-coli,

00:45:54.365 --> 00:46:00.657
supposedly, evolving over 30 years, over 30,000 generations in the lab,

00:46:00.657 --> 00:46:04.410
and people say that it is now able to grow on citrate,

00:46:04.410 --> 00:46:06.199
I don't deny that it grows on citrate,

00:46:06.199 --> 00:46:08.761
but it's not any kind of new information.

00:46:08.761 --> 00:46:12.042
The information's already there and it's just a switch

00:46:12.042 --> 00:46:15.578
that gets turned on and off and that's what they reported in there.

00:46:15.578 --> 00:46:17.238
There's nothing new.

00:46:17.238 --> 00:46:20.341
See, students need to be told what's really going on here.

00:46:20.341 --> 00:46:24.372
Certainly there's change, but it's not change necessary for molecules-to-man.

00:46:24.372 --> 00:46:27.130
Now, we could look at other predictions.

00:46:27.130 --> 00:46:29.264
What about evidence confirming one race?

00:46:29.264 --> 00:46:32.394
Well, when we look at the human population we see lots of differences.

00:46:32.394 --> 00:46:35.298
But based on Darwin's ideas of human evolution,

00:46:35.298 --> 00:46:37.629
as presented in The Descent of Man, I mean,

00:46:37.629 --> 00:46:39.588
Darwin did teach in The Descent of Man there were

00:46:39.588 --> 00:46:41.461
lower races and higher races.

00:46:41.461 --> 00:46:44.542
Would you believe, that back in the 1900s, one of the most

00:46:44.542 --> 00:46:49.433
popular biology textbooks used in the public schools in America taught this:

00:46:49.433 --> 00:46:51.808
At the present time there exists upon Earth

00:46:51.808 --> 00:46:55.060
five races or varieties of man...and finally,

00:46:55.060 --> 00:46:58.195
the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented

00:46:58.195 --> 00:47:01.107
by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.

00:47:01.107 --> 00:47:03.098
Can you imagine if that was in the public schools today?

00:47:03.098 --> 00:47:06.500
And, yet, that's what was taught, but it was based on

00:47:06.500 --> 00:47:11.204
Darwin's ideas that are wrong. You have a wrong foundation.

00:47:11.204 --> 00:47:12.558
You're gonna have a wrong worldview.

00:47:12.558 --> 00:47:15.765
Now, had they started from the Bible, and from

00:47:15.765 --> 00:47:18.251
the creation account in the Bible, what does it teach?

00:47:19.153 --> 00:47:21.251
Well, we're all descendants of Adam and Eve.

00:47:21.251 --> 00:47:24.152
We go through the Tower of Babel, different languages,

00:47:24.152 --> 00:47:26.275
so different people groups formed distinct characteristics.

00:47:26.275 --> 00:47:29.217
But we'd expect, we'd say, you know what,

00:47:29.217 --> 00:47:31.187
that means there's biologically only one race of humans.

00:47:31.187 --> 00:47:33.696
Well, I mentioned Dr. Venter before.

00:47:33.696 --> 00:47:36.819
And he was a researcher with the human genome project.

00:47:36.819 --> 00:47:39.464
And you'll remember, in the year 2000, this was headline news,

00:47:39.464 --> 00:47:42.053
and what we read was this: they had put together

00:47:42.053 --> 00:47:44.219
a draft of the entire sequence of the human genome

00:47:44.219 --> 00:47:48.356
and unanimously declared, there is only one race - the human race.

00:47:48.356 --> 00:47:49.700
Wow! Who would have guessed?

00:47:49.700 --> 00:47:52.539
But you see there we have observational science

00:47:52.539 --> 00:47:54.709
confirming the Creation account,

00:47:54.709 --> 00:47:58.028
not confirming at all Darwin's ideas.

00:47:58.444 --> 00:48:00.090
Now, there's much more that can be said

00:48:00.090 --> 00:48:01.215
on each of these topics.

00:48:01.215 --> 00:48:04.446
Obviously, you can't do that in a short time like this.

00:48:04.723 --> 00:48:06.286
And you could do a lot more research.

00:48:06.286 --> 00:48:09.372
I suggest you visit our website at Answers in Genesis

00:48:09.372 --> 00:48:10.853
for a lot more information.

00:48:10.853 --> 00:48:14.658
So, the debate topic: Is creation a viable model

00:48:14.658 --> 00:48:16.677
of origins in today's scientific era?

00:48:17.169 --> 00:48:19.637
I said, we need to define the terms,

00:48:19.637 --> 00:48:21.304
and particularly, the term science

00:48:21.304 --> 00:48:23.945
and the term evolution. And I believe we need

00:48:23.945 --> 00:48:25.932
to understand how they are being used to impose

00:48:25.932 --> 00:48:29.565
an anti-God religion on generations of unsuspecting students.

00:48:29.934 --> 00:48:32.082
You see, I keep emphasizing we do need to

00:48:32.082 --> 00:48:34.166
understand the difference between experimental or

00:48:34.166 --> 00:48:36.943
observational science and historical science.

00:48:36.943 --> 00:48:37.909
And you know what?

00:48:38.185 --> 00:48:39.991
The secularists don't like me doing this

00:48:39.991 --> 00:48:41.523
because they don't want to admit

00:48:41.523 --> 00:48:43.687
that there's a belief aspect to what they're saying.

00:48:43.687 --> 00:48:45.989
And there is. And they can't get away from it.

00:48:46.235 --> 00:48:48.750
Let me illustrate this with a statement from Bill Nye.

00:48:49.058 --> 00:48:50.741
"You can show the Earth is not flat.

00:48:50.741 --> 00:48:52.942
You can show the Earth is not 10,000 years old."

00:48:52.942 --> 00:48:55.574
By the way, I agree. You can show the Earth is not flat.

00:48:55.574 --> 00:48:58.638
There's a video from the Galileo spacecraft showing

00:48:58.638 --> 00:49:00.688
the Earth, and speeded up of course, but spinning.

00:49:00.688 --> 00:49:02.784
You can see it's a sphere. You can observe that.

00:49:03.076 --> 00:49:05.227
You can't observe the age of the Earth.

00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:08.249
You don't see that. You see again, I emphasize,

00:49:08.249 --> 00:49:10.358
there's a big difference between historical science,

00:49:10.512 --> 00:49:13.558
talking about the past, and observational science,

00:49:13.558 --> 00:49:15.308
talking about the present.

00:49:15.738 --> 00:49:18.196
And I believe what's happening is this, that students are being

00:49:18.196 --> 00:49:20.384
indoctrinated by the confusion of terms:

00:49:20.384 --> 00:49:22.884
the hijacking of the word science and the hijacking

00:49:22.884 --> 00:49:25.571
of the word evolution in a bait-and-switch.

00:49:26.140 --> 00:49:29.267
Let me illustrate further with this video clip.

00:49:29.267 --> 00:49:31.945
Because here I assert that Bill Nye is equating

00:49:31.945 --> 00:49:34.561
observational science with historical science.

00:49:34.561 --> 00:49:37.697
And I also say it's not a mystery when you understand the difference.

00:49:37.697 --> 00:49:41.590
Howie, people with these deeply held religious beliefs,

00:49:41.590 --> 00:49:45.293
they embrace that whole literal interpretation

00:49:45.293 --> 00:49:49.492
of the Bible as written in English, as a worldview.

00:49:49.492 --> 00:49:53.945
And, at the same time, they accept aspirin,

00:49:53.945 --> 00:49:58.988
antibiotic drugs, airplanes, but they're able

00:49:58.988 --> 00:50:01.496
to hold these two worldviews. And this is a mystery.

00:50:01.496 --> 00:50:04.496
Actually, I suggest to you it's not a mystery.

00:50:04.496 --> 00:50:06.557
You see, when I'm talking about antibiotics,

00:50:06.557 --> 00:50:09.230
aspirin, smoke detectors, jet planes,

00:50:09.230 --> 00:50:11.858
that's Ken Ham the Observational Science Bloke.

00:50:11.858 --> 00:50:15.403
I'm an Australian. We call guy's "blokes", okay?

00:50:15.403 --> 00:50:18.394
But when you're talking about creation and thousands of years

00:50:18.394 --> 00:50:19.559
of the age of the Earth,

00:50:19.559 --> 00:50:21.238
that's Ken Ham the Historical Science Bloke.

00:50:21.238 --> 00:50:22.159
I'm willing to admit that.

00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:24.523
Now, when Bill Nye's talking about aspirin,

00:50:24.523 --> 00:50:26.519
antibiotics, jet planes, smoke detectors,

00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:27.811
he does a great job at that.

00:50:27.811 --> 00:50:29.695
I used to enjoy watching him on TV too.

00:50:29.695 --> 00:50:32.892
That's Bill Nye the Observational Science Guy.

00:50:32.892 --> 00:50:34.858
But when he's talking about evolution and millions of years,

00:50:34.858 --> 00:50:39.157
I'm challenging him that that's Bill Nye the Historical Science Guy.

00:50:39.157 --> 00:50:42.688
And I challenge the evolutionist to admit the belief

00:50:42.688 --> 00:50:46.405
aspects of their particular worldview.

00:50:46.405 --> 00:50:49.635
Now, at the Creation Museum, we're only too willing

00:50:49.635 --> 00:50:51.469
to admit our beliefs based upon the Bible,

00:50:51.469 --> 00:50:53.778
but we also teach people the difference between

00:50:53.778 --> 00:50:55.932
beliefs and what one can actually observe

00:50:55.932 --> 00:50:57.445
and experiment with in the present.

00:50:57.445 --> 00:50:59.613
I believe we're teaching people to think critically

00:50:59.613 --> 00:51:03.210
and to think in the right terms about science.

00:51:03.210 --> 00:51:05.190
I believe it's the creationists that should be

00:51:05.190 --> 00:51:08.438
educating the kids out there because we're teaching

00:51:08.438 --> 00:51:11.604
them the right way to think. You know, we admit it.

00:51:11.604 --> 00:51:13.856
Our origins of historical science is based upon the Bible,

00:51:13.856 --> 00:51:16.157
but I'm just challenging evolutionists to admit

00:51:16.157 --> 00:51:17.693
the belief aspects of evolution

00:51:17.693 --> 00:51:20.188
and be upfront about the difference here.

00:51:20.188 --> 00:51:22.405
As I said, I'm only too willing to admit

00:51:22.405 --> 00:51:24.827
my historical science based on the Bible.

00:51:24.827 --> 00:51:30.027
And let me further go on to define the term "creation" as we use it.

00:51:30.027 --> 00:51:34.137
By creation, we mean, here at Answers in Genesis

00:51:34.137 --> 00:51:37.780
and the Creation Museum, we mean the account based on the Bible.

00:51:37.780 --> 00:51:41.135
Yes, I take Genesis as literal history, as Jesus did.

00:51:41.135 --> 00:51:44.775
And, here at the Creation Museum, we walk people through that history.

00:51:44.775 --> 00:51:47.635
We walk them through creation, the perfect creation.

00:51:47.635 --> 00:51:51.738
That God made Adam and Eve, land animal kinds, sea-creatures and so on.

00:51:51.738 --> 00:51:54.436
And then sin and death entered the world.

00:51:54.436 --> 00:51:56.499
There was no death before sin.

00:51:56.499 --> 00:52:00.590
That means how can you have billions of dead things before man sinned?

00:52:04.834 --> 00:52:06.760
And then, the catastrophe of Noah's flood. If there was a global flood,

00:52:06.760 --> 00:52:08.918
you'd expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.

00:52:08.918 --> 00:52:12.843
Had to say that because a lot of our supporters would want me to.

00:52:12.843 --> 00:52:17.925
And what do you find?--Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.

00:52:17.925 --> 00:52:22.338
Confusion, the tower of Babel. God gave different languages so you get different people groups.

00:52:22.338 --> 00:52:28.222
So this is the geological, astronomical, anthropological, biological history as recorded in the Bible.

00:52:28.222 --> 00:52:31.344
So this is concerning what happened in the past that explains the present.

00:52:31.344 --> 00:52:36.865
And then, of course, that God's Son stepped into history to be Jesus Christ, the God-Man

00:52:36.865 --> 00:52:39.331
to die on the cross, be raised from the dead. And one day there's going to be

00:52:39.331 --> 00:52:42.336
a new heavens and a new earth to come. And, you know, not only

00:52:42.336 --> 00:52:47.389
is this an understanding of history to explain the

00:52:47.389 --> 00:52:50.251
geology, biology, astronomy, and so on to connect the present to the past.

00:52:50.251 --> 00:52:53.901
But it's also a foundation for our whole world view.

00:52:53.901 --> 00:52:58.233
For instance, in Matthew 19, when Jesus was asked about marriage, he said,

00:52:58.233 --> 00:53:02.660
"Have you not read He who made them at the beginning made them male and female?"

00:53:02.660 --> 00:53:06.398
And said, "For this cause shall a man leave his mother and father and be joined to his wife. And they'll be one flesh."

00:53:06.398 --> 00:53:12.055
He quoted from Genesis as literal history--Genesis 1 and 2. God invented marriage, by the way.

00:53:12.055 --> 00:53:15.467
That's where marriage comes from. And it's to be a man and a woman.

00:53:15.467 --> 00:53:19.557
And not only marriage. Ultimately, every single Biblical doctrine of theology

00:53:19.557 --> 00:53:22.166
directly or indirectly, is founded in Genesis.

00:53:22.166 --> 00:53:25.175
Why is there sin in the world? Genesis.

00:53:25.175 --> 00:53:26.844
Why is there death? Genesis.

00:53:26.844 --> 00:53:28.802
Why do we wear clothes? Genesis.

00:53:28.802 --> 00:53:30.563
Why did Jesus die on the cross? Genesis.

00:53:30.563 --> 00:53:33.188
It's a very important book. It's foundational to all Christian doctrine.

00:53:33.188 --> 00:53:36.505
And you see, when we look at that, what I call the seven C's of History

00:53:36.505 --> 00:53:38.458
that we walk people through here at the museum,

00:53:38.458 --> 00:53:40.927
think about how it all connects together--a perfect creation.

00:53:40.927 --> 00:53:43.135
It'll be perfect again in the future.

00:53:43.135 --> 00:53:46.923
Sin and death--end of the world. That's why God's son died on the cross

00:53:46.923 --> 00:53:50.003
to conquer death and offer a free gift of salvation.

00:53:50.003 --> 00:53:53.900
The flood of Noah's day, a reminder that the flood was a

00:53:53.900 --> 00:53:56.177
judgement because of man's wickedness but at the same time

00:53:56.177 --> 00:53:58.238
a message of God's grace and salvation.

00:53:58.238 --> 00:54:00.918
As Noah and his family had to go through a door to be saved,

00:54:00.918 --> 00:54:03.123
so we need to go through a door to be saved.

00:54:03.123 --> 00:54:05.867
Jesus Christ said, "I am the door. By me, if any man

00:54:05.867 --> 00:54:08.633
enter in, he'll be saved. And we make no apology

00:54:08.633 --> 00:54:11.059
about the fact that what we're on about is this:

00:54:11.059 --> 00:54:13.465
"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and

00:54:13.465 --> 00:54:15.584
believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead,

00:54:15.584 --> 00:54:17.925
you'll be saved. Now, as soon as I said that,

00:54:17.925 --> 00:54:21.003
see if people say, "See, if you allow creation in schools,

00:54:21.003 --> 00:54:23.005
for instance, if you'll ask students to even hear about it,

00:54:23.005 --> 00:54:24.668
ah, this is religion."

00:54:24.668 --> 00:54:27.170
You know, let me illustrate this,

00:54:27.170 --> 00:54:30.458
talking about a recent battle in Texas over textbooks

00:54:30.458 --> 00:54:35.468
in the public school. A newspaper report said this:

00:54:35.468 --> 00:54:37.760
"Textbook and classroom curriculum battles have long

00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:40.233
raged in Texas pitting creationists - those who see

00:54:40.233 --> 00:54:42.094
God's hand in the creation of the universe-

00:54:42.094 --> 00:54:43.927
against academics..."

00:54:43.927 --> 00:54:46.258
Stop right there. Notice creationists... academics.

00:54:46.258 --> 00:54:48.557
Creationists can't be academics. Creationists can't be scientists.

00:54:48.557 --> 00:54:50.420
See, it's the way things are worded out there.

00:54:50.420 --> 00:54:53.365
It's an indoctrination that's going on.

00:54:53.365 --> 00:54:55.898
We worry about religious and political ideology

00:54:55.898 --> 00:54:58.171
trumping scientific fact. Wait a minute.

00:54:58.171 --> 00:54:59.958
What do I mean by science? You're talking about

00:54:59.958 --> 00:55:03.365
what you observe, or are you talking about your beliefs about the past?

00:55:03.365 --> 00:55:07.522
Now, Kathy Miller is the president of the Texas Freedom Network and

00:55:07.522 --> 00:55:14.098
she has vocally spoken out. She's spoken out about this textbook battle there in Texas.

00:55:14.098 --> 00:55:21.925
And the mission statement of the organization she's president of says, "The Texas Freedom Network

00:55:21.925 --> 00:55:24.818
advances a mainstream agenda of religious freedom and individual liberties

00:55:24.818 --> 00:55:28.486
to counter the religious right." Religious freedom... individual liberties. Hmm.

00:55:28.486 --> 00:55:34.220
And then she makes this statement: "Science education..." What does she mean by science?

00:55:34.220 --> 00:55:37.298
"should be based on mainstream science education, not on personal idealogical beliefs

00:55:37.298 --> 00:55:43.435
of unqualified reviewers." Wait a minute. They want religious liberty and not personal

00:55:43.435 --> 00:55:48.697
ideological beliefs? I assert this: public school textbooks are using the same word "science"

00:55:48.697 --> 00:55:53.345
for observational and historical science. They arbitrarily define science as naturalism

00:55:53.345 --> 00:55:57.210
and outlaw the supernatural. They present molecules-to-man evolution as as fact.

00:55:57.210 --> 00:56:00.276
And they are imposing the religion of naturalism on generations of students.

00:56:00.276 --> 00:56:02.934
They're imposing their ideology on the students

00:56:02.934 --> 00:56:04.909
and everything's explained by natural processes.

00:56:04.909 --> 00:56:07.422
That is a religion. What do you mean by religious liberty?

00:56:07.422 --> 00:56:09.245
They tolerate their religion.

00:56:10.260 --> 00:56:12.430
See, the battle is really about authority.

00:56:12.430 --> 00:56:15.031
It's more than just science or evolution or creation.

00:56:15.031 --> 00:56:18.404
It's about who is the authority in this world, man or God?

00:56:19.080 --> 00:56:22.488
If you start with naturalism, then what about morals?

00:56:22.488 --> 00:56:24.741
Who decides right and wrong? Well, it's subjective.

00:56:24.741 --> 00:56:26.528
Marriage? Well, whatever you want it to be.

00:56:27.204 --> 00:56:29.547
Get rid of old people. I mean, why not?

00:56:29.547 --> 00:56:31.800
They're just animals, they're costing us a lot of money.

00:56:31.800 --> 00:56:35.323
Abortion. Get rid of spare cats, get rid of spare kids. We're all animals.

00:56:35.323 --> 00:56:38.166
But if you start from God's word, there are moral absolutes.

00:56:38.166 --> 00:56:40.927
God decides right and wrong. Marriage--one man and one woman.

00:56:40.927 --> 00:56:44.327
Sanctity of life--we care for old people. They're made in the image of God.

00:56:44.327 --> 00:56:47.996
Life begins at fertilization, so abortion is killing a human being.

00:56:48.319 --> 00:56:50.539
We do see the collapse of Christian morality

00:56:50.539 --> 00:56:53.129
in our culture and increasing moral relativism

00:56:53.129 --> 00:56:56.273
because generations of kids are being taught the religion

00:56:56.273 --> 00:56:59.147
of naturalism and that the Bible can't be trusted.

00:56:59.147 --> 00:57:03.042
And so, again, I say creation is the only viable model

00:57:03.042 --> 00:57:05.894
of historical science confirmed by observational science

00:57:05.894 --> 00:57:08.159
in today's modern scientific era. You know what?

00:57:08.159 --> 00:57:10.820
I'm a science teacher. I want to see kids taught science.

00:57:10.820 --> 00:57:14.375
I love science. I want to see more (inaudible) in the world.

00:57:14.575 --> 00:57:16.387
You know, if we teach them the whole universe

00:57:16.387 --> 00:57:19.340
is a result of natural processes and not designed

00:57:19.340 --> 00:57:22.455
by a creative God, they might be looking in the wrong places

00:57:22.455 --> 00:57:24.436
or have the wrong idea when they're looking

00:57:24.436 --> 00:57:27.817
at the creation in regard to how you develop technology

00:57:27.817 --> 00:57:30.809
because if they look at it as just random processes,

00:57:30.809 --> 00:57:33.426
that could totally influence the way they think.

00:57:33.426 --> 00:57:36.077
If they understand it was a perfect world marred by sin,

00:57:36.077 --> 00:57:38.964
that could have a great affect on how they then look

00:57:38.964 --> 00:57:42.254
for overcoming diseases and problems in the world.

00:57:42.254 --> 00:57:45.590
I want children to be taught the right foundation,

00:57:45.590 --> 00:57:48.037
that there's a God who created them, who loves them,

00:57:48.037 --> 00:57:52.037
who died on the cross for them and that they're special.

00:57:52.037 --> 00:57:53.412
They're made in the image of God.

00:57:55.012 --> 00:57:56.289
(moderator) There you go. Thank you, Mr. Ham.

00:57:56.289 --> 00:57:58.964
-We can applaud Mr. Ham's presentation.
-(audience applauds)

00:58:12.147 --> 00:58:14.205
And, you know, it did occur to me when you had

00:58:14.205 --> 00:58:17.043
my old friend Larry King up there, you could've just asked him.

00:58:17.566 --> 00:58:20.140
He's been around a long time. And he's a smart guy!

00:58:20.140 --> 00:58:25.221
He could probably answer for all of us. Now, let's all be

00:58:25.221 --> 00:58:28.422
attentive to Mr. Nye as he gives us his 30 minute presentation.

00:58:28.422 --> 00:58:31.647
Thank you very much and, Mr. Ham, I learned something.

00:58:31.923 --> 00:58:36.883
Thank you. But let's take it back around to question at hand:

00:58:37.590 --> 00:58:41.623
does Ken Ham's creation model hold up? Is it viable?

00:58:42.638 --> 00:58:46.280
So, for me, of course...well...take a look.

00:58:46.987 --> 00:58:53.264
We're here in Kentucky on layer upon layer upon layer of limestone.

00:58:53.540 --> 00:58:56.222
I stopped at the side of the road today and picked up

00:58:56.222 --> 00:58:59.944
just a piece of limestone. It has a fossil right there.

00:59:00.636 --> 00:59:05.294
Now, in these many, many layers, in this vicinity of Kentucky,

00:59:05.294 --> 00:59:10.058
there are coral animal--fossils, Zooxanthella--

00:59:10.350 --> 00:59:12.041
and when you look at it closely,

00:59:12.041 --> 00:59:14.322
you can see that they lived their entire lives.

00:59:14.322 --> 00:59:18.173
They lived typically 20 years, sometimes more than that

00:59:18.742 --> 00:59:20.551
when the water conditions are correct.

00:59:20.874 --> 00:59:26.050
And so we are standing on millions of layers of ancient life.

00:59:27.188 --> 00:59:30.312
How could those animals have lived their entire life,

00:59:30.312 --> 00:59:33.644
and formed these layers, in just 4,000 years?

00:59:34.167 --> 00:59:38.666
There isn't enough time since Mr. Ham's flood

00:59:38.912 --> 00:59:43.522
for this limestone that we're standing on to come into existence.

00:59:46.075 --> 00:59:48.835
My scientific colleagues go to places like Greenland,

00:59:48.835 --> 00:59:52.505
the Arctic, they go to Antarctica, and they drill

00:59:52.505 --> 00:59:57.265
into the ice with hollow drill bits. It's not that extraordinary.

00:59:57.265 --> 00:59:59.837
Many of you have probably done it yourselves, drilling other things.

00:59:59.837 --> 01:00:02.855
Hole saws to put locks in doors, for example.

01:00:03.547 --> 01:00:09.359
And we pull out long cylinders of ice, long ice rods.

01:00:09.851 --> 01:00:14.437
And these are made of snow and it's called "snow ice".

01:00:14.975 --> 01:00:20.019
And snow ice forms over the winter as snowflakes fall

01:00:20.019 --> 01:00:23.130
and are crushed down by subsequent layers. They're crushed together,

01:00:23.130 --> 01:00:26.564
entrapping the little bubbles and the little bubbles must

01:00:26.564 --> 01:00:30.474
needs be ancient atmosphere. There's nobody running around

01:00:30.474 --> 01:00:34.339
with a hypodermic needle, squirting ancient atmosphere into the bubbles.

01:00:34.754 --> 01:00:40.859
And we find certain of these cylinders to have 680,000 layers.

01:00:40.859 --> 01:00:46.714
680,000 snow/winter/summer cycles.

01:00:47.606 --> 01:00:53.752
How could it be that just 4,000 years ago all of this ice formed?

01:00:54.028 --> 01:00:56.304
Let's just run some numbers.

01:00:57.504 --> 01:01:00.701
This is some scenes from the lovely Antarctic.

01:01:01.532 --> 01:01:05.371
Let's say we have 680,000 layers of snow ice

01:01:05.555 --> 01:01:08.084
and 4,000 years since the Great Flood.

01:01:08.484 --> 01:01:13.668
That would mean we'd need 170 winter-summer cycles

01:01:13.668 --> 01:01:16.749
every year, for the last 4,000 years.

01:01:16.749 --> 01:01:21.073
I mean, wouldn't someone have noticed that? Wow!

01:01:21.073 --> 01:01:23.053
Wouldn't someone have noticed that there's been

01:01:23.053 --> 01:01:26.032
winter-summer-winter-summer 170 times one year?

01:01:26.770 --> 01:01:33.140
If we go to California, we find enormous stands of bristlecone pines.

01:01:33.863 --> 01:01:38.375
Some of them are over 6,000 years old. 6,800 years old.

01:01:38.375 --> 01:01:44.998
There's a famous tree in Sweden, Old Tjikko, is 9,550 years old.

01:01:45.382 --> 01:01:53.051
How could these trees be there if there was an enormous flood just 4,000 years ago?

01:01:53.512 --> 01:01:55.539
You can try this yourself, everybody.

01:01:56.123 --> 01:01:58.526
Get, I mean, I don't mean to be mean to trees,

01:01:58.526 --> 01:02:02.407
but get a sapling and put it under water for a year.

01:02:02.853 --> 01:02:06.735
It will not survive in general. Nor will its seeds.

01:02:06.735 --> 01:02:10.620
They just won't make it. So how could these trees

01:02:10.620 --> 01:02:14.923
be that old if the Earth is only 4,000 years old?

01:02:15.276 --> 01:02:18.300
Now, when we go to the Grand Canyon--which is an astonishing place

01:02:18.300 --> 01:02:19.734
and I recommend to everybody in the world to someday visit the Grand Canyon--

01:02:19.734 --> 01:02:25.932
you find layer upon layer of ancient rocks.

01:02:26.362 --> 01:02:27.695
And if there was this enormous flood that you speak of,

01:02:27.695 --> 01:02:35.165
wouldn't there have been churning and bubbling and roiling?

01:02:35.549 --> 01:02:36.934
How would these things have settled out?

01:02:36.934 --> 01:02:40.834
Your claim that they settled out in an extraordinary short amount of time

01:02:40.834 --> 01:02:47.796
is for me, not satisfactory. You can look at these rocks. You can look at rocks that are younger.

01:02:47.796 --> 01:02:54.784
You can go to seashores where there's sand. This is what geologists on the outside do,

01:02:54.784 --> 01:02:58.865
study the rate at which soil is deposited at the end of rivers and deltas.

01:02:58.865 --> 01:03:06.001
And we can see that it takes a long, long time for sediments to turn to stone.

01:03:06.001 --> 01:03:11.157
Also, in this picture you can see where one type of sediment has intruded on another type.

01:03:11.157 --> 01:03:18.282
Now, if that was uniform, wouldn't we expect it all to be even, without intrusion?

01:03:18.282 --> 01:03:23.859
Furthermore, you can find places in the Grand Canyon where you see an ancient riverbed on that side

01:03:23.859 --> 01:03:27.567
going to an ancient riverbed on that side and the Colorado River has cut through it.

01:03:27.567 --> 01:03:33.782
And by the way, if this great flood drained through the Grand Canyon,

01:03:33.782 --> 01:03:37.840
wouldn't there have been a Grand Canyon on every continent?

01:03:38.056 --> 01:03:43.516
How could we not have Grand Canyons everywhere if this water drained away in this extraordinary

01:03:43.516 --> 01:03:49.450
short amount of time? Four thousand years? Now when you look at these layers carefully,

01:03:50.326 --> 01:03:56.702
you find these beautiful fossils. And when I say beautiful, I am inspired by them. They are remarkable

01:03:56.702 --> 01:04:03.619
because we are looking at the past. You find down low. You'll find what you might consider

01:04:03.619 --> 01:04:08.990
is, uh, rudimentary sea animals. Up above you'll find the famous trilobytes.

01:04:09.620 --> 01:04:14.670
Above that you might find some clams, some oysters. And above that you find some mammals.

01:04:15.363 --> 01:04:22.694
You never, ever find a higher animal mixed in with a lower one. You never find a lower one

01:04:22.694 --> 01:04:28.434
trying to swim its way to a higher one. If it all happened in such an extraordinary short amount of time,

01:04:28.434 --> 01:04:33.674
if this water drained away just like that, wouldn't we expect to see some turbulence?

01:04:33.674 --> 01:04:41.557
And by the way, anyone here, really, if you can find one example of that, one example of that

01:04:41.557 --> 01:04:47.882
anywhere in the world, the scientists of the world challenge you. They would embrace you. You would be a hero.

01:04:47.882 --> 01:04:51.593
You would change the world if you could find one example of that anywhere.

01:04:52.100 --> 01:04:56.492
People have looked, and looked and looked. They have not found a single one.

01:04:58.891 --> 01:05:07.005
Now here's an interesting thing. These are fossil skulls that people have found all around the world.

01:05:07.005 --> 01:05:13.330
It's by no means representative of all the fossil skulls that have been found, but these are all over the place.

01:05:13.869 --> 01:05:23.778
Now, if you were to look at these, I can assure you, not any of them is a gorilla. Right?

01:05:24.993 --> 01:05:33.642
If as Mr. Ham and his associates claim, there was just man and then everybody else, there were just

01:05:33.642 --> 01:05:39.737
humans and all other species, where would you put modern humans among these skulls?

01:05:40.598 --> 01:05:46.521
How did all these skulls get all over the earth in these extraordinary fashion? Where would you put us?

01:05:47.613 --> 01:05:52.309
I can tell you we are on there and I encourage you, when you go home, to look it up.

01:05:54.600 --> 01:06:04.770
Now, one of the extraordinary claims associated with Mr. Ham's worldview is that this giant boat

01:06:04.770 --> 01:06:11.362
a very large wooden ship, went aground safely on a mountain in the Middle, what we now call the Middle East.

01:06:11.947 --> 01:06:20.007
And so places like Australia are populated then by animals who somehow managed to get

01:06:20.514 --> 01:06:25.191
from the Middle East all the way to Australia in the last 4,000 years.

01:06:26.422 --> 01:06:32.397
Now that, to me, is an extraordinary claim. We would expect then, somewhere between the Middle East

01:06:32.397 --> 01:06:37.617
and Australia, we would expect to find evidence of kangaroos. We would expect to find

01:06:38.417 --> 01:06:43.336
some fossils, some bones in the last 4,000 years. Somebody would have been hopping along there

01:06:43.336 --> 01:06:46.811
and died along the way, and we'd find them. And furthermore, there's a claim

01:06:46.811 --> 01:06:52.440
that there was a land bridge that allowed these animals to get from Asia all the way

01:06:52.440 --> 01:06:58.067
to the continent of Australia. And that land bridge has disappeared, has disappeared in the last

01:06:58.067 --> 01:07:05.952
4,000 years. No navigator, no diver, no U.S. Navy submarine, no one has ever detected any evidence

01:07:05.952 --> 01:07:11.776
of this, let alone any evidence of fossils of kangaroos. So, your expectation is not met.

01:07:12.467 --> 01:07:20.342
It doesn't seem to hold up. So, let's see. If there are 4,000 years since Ken Ham's flood

01:07:21.142 --> 01:07:27.445
and let's say, as he said many times, there are 7,000 kinds,

01:07:27.921 --> 01:07:35.199
today the very, very lowest estimate is that there are about 8.7 million species.

01:07:35.199 --> 01:07:39.677
But a much more reasonable estimate is it's 50 million, or even 100 million,

01:07:39.924 --> 01:07:45.276
when you start counting the viruses and the bacteria and all the beetles that must be extant

01:07:45.276 --> 01:07:51.712
in the tropical rain forests that we haven't found. So we'll take a number which I think is pretty reasonable,

01:07:51.712 --> 01:07:59.919
16 million species today. If these came from 7,000 kinds,

01:07:59.919 --> 01:08:03.424
let's say we have 7,000 subtracted from 15 million,

01:08:03.424 --> 01:08:09.595
that's 15,993. If 4,000 years, we have 365.25 days a year,

01:08:10.425 --> 01:08:15.520
we would expect to find 11 new species every day.

01:08:16.166 --> 01:08:22.200
So you'd go out into your yard, you wouldn't just find a different bird, a new bird

01:08:22.200 --> 01:08:26.589
you'd find a different kind of bird, a whole new species, a bird!

01:08:26.696 --> 01:08:31.821
Every day, a new species of fish, a new species of organisms you can't see, and so on.

01:08:31.821 --> 01:08:38.366
I mean, this would be enormous news. The last 4,000 years people would have seen these changes among us.

01:08:38.950 --> 01:08:43.603
So the Cincinnati Enquirer, I imagine, would carry a column right next to the weather report:

01:08:43.603 --> 01:08:50.239
Today's New Species, and it would list these 11 every day, but we see no evidence of that.

01:08:50.485 --> 01:08:53.689
There's no evidence of these species. There simply isn't enough time.

01:08:54.474 --> 01:08:58.884
Now as you may know, I was graduated from engineering school and I was,

01:08:58.884 --> 01:09:07.187
I got a job at Boeing. I worked on 747s. I, okay everybody relax, I was very well supervised.

01:09:08.387 --> 01:09:13.163
Everything's fine. There's a tube in the 747 I kind of think of that's my tube.

01:09:13.163 --> 01:09:18.028
But that aside, I travelled the highways of Washington state quite a bit.

01:09:18.028 --> 01:09:23.268
I was a young guy. I had a motorcycle. I used to go mountain climbing in Washington state... Oregon.

01:09:24.160 --> 01:09:32.066
And you can drive along and find these enormous boulders on top of the ground, enormous rocks,

01:09:32.682 --> 01:09:40.928
huge, sitting on top of the ground. Now, out there, in regular academic pursuits, regular geology,

01:09:41.774 --> 01:09:46.491
people have discovered that there was, used to be a lake in what is now Montana

01:09:46.937 --> 01:09:50.448
which we charmingly refer to as Lake Missoula.

01:09:50.448 --> 01:09:54.590
It's not there now but the evidence for it, of course, if I may, overwhelming.

01:09:55.082 --> 01:10:01.048
And so, an ice dam would form at Lake Missoula and once in a while it would break.

01:10:01.433 --> 01:10:06.440
It would build up and break. And there were multiple floods in my old state of Washington state.

01:10:06.440 --> 01:10:12.582
And, just, before we go on, let me just say, go Seahawks! That was very gratifying, very gratifying for me.

01:10:13.690 --> 01:10:20.349
Anyway you drive along the road and there are these rocks. So, if as is asserted here at this facility,

01:10:20.918 --> 01:10:25.059
that the heavier rocks would sink to the bottom during a flood event,

01:10:25.059 --> 01:10:29.214
the big rocks, and especially their shape, instead of aerodynamic,

01:10:29.214 --> 01:10:34.397
the hydrodynamic, the water changing shape, as water flows past,

01:10:34.397 --> 01:10:38.944
you'd expect them to sink to the bottom. But here are these enormous rocks right on the surface.

01:10:38.944 --> 01:10:42.714
And there's no shortage of them. If you go driving in Washington state or Oregon

01:10:42.714 --> 01:10:49.831
they are readily available. So how could those be there if the Earth is just 4,000 years old.

01:10:49.831 --> 01:10:53.206
How could they be there if this one flood caused that?

01:10:54.191 --> 01:11:01.000
Another remarkable thing I'd like everybody to consider, alone inherent in this worldview,

01:11:01.770 --> 01:11:10.570
is that somehow Noah and his family were able to build a wooden ship that would house

01:11:11.477 --> 01:11:17.444
14,000 individuals. There were 7,000 kinds and then, there's a boy and a girl for each one of those,

01:11:18.028 --> 01:11:22.536
so there's about 14,000... 8 people. And these people were unskilled.

01:11:23.167 --> 01:11:26.629
As far as anybody knows they had never built a wooden ship before.

01:11:27.460 --> 01:11:31.510
Furthermore, they had to get all these animals on there. And they had to feed them.

01:11:31.510 --> 01:11:37.202
And I understand that Mr. Ham has some explanations for that, which I frankly find extraordinary but

01:11:39.002 --> 01:11:45.627
this is the premise of the bit. And we can then run a test, a scientific test.

01:11:46.411 --> 01:11:51.956
People in the early 1900s built an extraordinary, large wooden ship, the Wyoming.

01:11:51.956 --> 01:11:59.615
It was a six-masted schooner, the largest one ever built. It had a motor on it for winching cables and stuff.

01:12:00.122 --> 01:12:07.352
But this boat had a great difficulty. It was not as big as the Titanic, but it was a very long ship.

01:12:07.829 --> 01:12:15.268
It would twist in the sea. It would twist this way, this way, and this way.

01:12:16.314 --> 01:12:22.590
And in all that twisting, it leaked. It leaked like crazy. The crew could not keep the ship dry.

01:12:22.897 --> 01:12:30.775
And indeed, it eventually foundered and sank, a loss of all 14 hands. So there were 14 crewmen

01:12:31.360 --> 01:12:35.491
aboard a ship built by very, very skilled shipwrights in New England.

01:12:35.491 --> 01:12:39.919
These guys were the best in the world at wooden shipbuilding. And they couldn't build

01:12:39.919 --> 01:12:44.431
a boat as big as the Ark is claimed to have been.

01:12:45.123 --> 01:12:51.361
Is that reasonable? Is that possible that the best shipbuilders in the world couldn't do

01:12:51.361 --> 01:12:57.309
what eight unskilled people, men and their wives, were able to do?

01:12:57.939 --> 01:13:06.596
If you visit the National Zoo, in Washington D.C., it's 163 acres. And they have 400 species.

01:13:06.596 --> 01:13:12.055
By the way, this picture that you're seeing was taken by spacecraft in space, orbiting the Earth.

01:13:12.655 --> 01:13:17.614
If you told my grandfather, let alone my father, that we had that capability,

01:13:17.614 --> 01:13:21.569
they would have been amazed. That capability comes from our fundamental understanding

01:13:22.015 --> 01:13:29.187
of gravity, of material science, of physics, and life science, where you go looking.

01:13:29.417 --> 01:13:35.471
This place is often, as any zoo, is often deeply concerned and criticized for how it treats its animals.

01:13:36.317 --> 01:13:44.725
They have 400 species on 163 acres, 66 hectares. Is it reasonable that Noah and his colleagues,

01:13:44.725 --> 01:13:51.199
his family, were able to maintain 14,000 animals and themselves, and feed them, aboard a ship

01:13:51.199 --> 01:13:53.724
that was bigger than anyone's ever been able to build?

01:13:54.832 --> 01:14:02.534
Now, here's the thing, what we want in science, science as practiced on the outside,

01:14:03.380 --> 01:14:11.102
is an ability to predict. We want to have a natural law that is so obvious and clear,

01:14:11.102 --> 01:14:14.618
so well understood that we can make predictions about what will happen.

01:14:15.125 --> 01:14:20.184
We can predict that we can put a spacecraft in orbit and take a picture of Washington D.C.

01:14:20.753 --> 01:14:25.428
We can predict that if we provide this much room for an elephant, it will live healthily

01:14:25.428 --> 01:14:30.454
for a certain amount of time. I'll give you an example.

01:14:32.977 --> 01:14:38.345
In the explanation provided by traditional science, of how we came to be,

01:14:38.898 --> 01:14:44.077
we find as Mr. Ham alluded to many times in his recent remarks,

01:14:44.077 --> 01:14:49.480
we find a sequence of animals in what, generally, is called "the fossil record."

01:14:49.480 --> 01:14:53.203
This would be to say when we look at the layers, that you would find in Kentucky,

01:14:53.203 --> 01:14:58.161
you look at them carefully, you find a sequence of animals, a succession.

01:14:58.791 --> 01:15:01.535
And as one might expect, when you are looking at old records

01:15:01.535 --> 01:15:05.024
there's some pieces seem to be missing, a gap.

01:15:05.947 --> 01:15:08.965
So scientists got to thinking about this.

01:15:09.289 --> 01:15:14.157
There are lungfish that jump from pond to pond in Florida

01:15:14.157 --> 01:15:15.499
and end up in people's swimming pools.

01:15:16.084 --> 01:15:19.514
And there are amphibians, frogs and toads, croaking and carrying on.

01:15:19.944 --> 01:15:25.918
And so people wondered if there wasn't a fossil or an organism,

01:15:25.918 --> 01:15:28.912
an animal, that had lived, that had characteristics of both.

01:15:29.758 --> 01:15:33.070
People over the years had found that in Canada,

01:15:33.762 --> 01:15:36.530
there was clearly a fossil marsh--

01:15:36.683 --> 01:15:39.463
a place that used to be a swamp that had dried out.

01:15:40.293 --> 01:15:44.199
And they found all kinds of happy swamp fossils there:

01:15:44.199 --> 01:15:48.745
ferns, organisms, animals, fish that were recognized.

01:15:49.314 --> 01:15:52.469
And people realized that if this, with the age of the rocks there,

01:15:52.930 --> 01:15:58.396
as computed by traditional scientists, with the age of the rocks there,

01:15:58.396 --> 01:16:01.552
this would be a reasonable place to look for an animal,

01:16:01.890 --> 01:16:07.319
a fossil of an animal that lived there. And, indeed, scientists found it.

01:16:07.749 --> 01:16:10.949
Tiktaalik, this fish-lizard guy.

01:16:11.487 --> 01:16:16.545
And they found several specimens, it wasn't one individual.

01:16:16.545 --> 01:16:19.197
In other words, they made a prediction, that this animal

01:16:19.197 --> 01:16:26.228
would be found and it was found. So far, Mr. Ham and his worldview,

01:16:26.228 --> 01:16:29.893
the Ken Ham creation model, does not have this capability.

01:16:29.893 --> 01:16:33.879
It cannot make predictions and show results.

01:16:34.263 --> 01:16:38.191
Here's an extraordinary one that I find remarkable.

01:16:39.821 --> 01:16:45.677
There are certain fish, the Topminnows, that have

01:16:45.677 --> 01:16:51.023
the remarkable ability to have sex with other fish,

01:16:51.715 --> 01:16:55.897
traditional fish sex, and they can have sex with themselves.

01:16:55.897 --> 01:16:59.500
Now, one of the old questions in life science, everybody,

01:16:59.884 --> 01:17:04.130
one of the old chin strokers is why does any organism,

01:17:04.838 --> 01:17:12.645
whether you're an ash tree, a sea jelly, a squid, a marmot,

01:17:12.645 --> 01:17:17.906
why does anybody have sex? I mean, there are more bacteria

01:17:17.906 --> 01:17:21.426
in your tummy right now then there are humans on Earth.

01:17:21.826 --> 01:17:23.466
And bacteria, they don't bother with that, man.

01:17:23.466 --> 01:17:26.147
They split themselves in half, they get new bacteria!

01:17:26.147 --> 01:17:29.999
Like, let's get her done! Let's go. But why does any--

01:17:29.999 --> 01:17:34.388
think of all the trouble a rose bush goes to make a flower and the thorns

01:17:34.404 --> 01:17:41.065
and the bees flying around, interacting--why does anybody bother with all that?

01:17:41.527 --> 01:17:44.834
And the answer seems to be...your enemies.

01:17:45.634 --> 01:17:51.565
And your enemies are not lions and tigers and bears...oh my!

01:17:51.857 --> 01:17:55.674
No, your enemies are germs and parasites.

01:17:55.674 --> 01:17:59.066
That's what's gonna get you. Germs and parasites.

01:17:59.727 --> 01:18:05.693
My first cousin's son died tragically from essentially the flu.

01:18:05.693 --> 01:18:08.632
This is not some story I heard about. This is my first cousin, once removed.

01:18:08.632 --> 01:18:13.296
Because, apparently, the virus had the right genes to attack his genes.

01:18:13.296 --> 01:18:16.701
So when you have sex you have a new set of genes.

01:18:16.701 --> 01:18:20.451
You have a new mixture. So people studied these Topminnows.

01:18:20.989 --> 01:18:24.695
And they found that the ones who reproduced sexually

01:18:25.310 --> 01:18:29.586
had fewer parasites that the ones who reproduced on their own.

01:18:29.986 --> 01:18:32.410
This Black Spot disease--wait, wait, there's more.

01:18:33.363 --> 01:18:37.949
In these populations, with flooding and so on, when river ponds get isolated,

01:18:37.949 --> 01:18:40.387
then they dry up, then the river flows again.

01:18:41.248 --> 01:18:45.146
In between, some of the fish will have sex with other fish,

01:18:45.146 --> 01:18:49.233
sometimes, and they'll have sex on their own, what's called asexually.

01:18:50.002 --> 01:18:52.873
And those fish, the ones that are in between, sometimes this,

01:18:52.873 --> 01:18:56.829
sometimes that, they have an intermediate number of infections.

01:18:57.659 --> 01:19:02.962
In other words, the explanation provided by evolution made a prediction.

01:19:02.977 --> 01:19:06.524
And the prediction's extraordinary and subtle, but there it is.

01:19:06.524 --> 01:19:08.995
How else would you explain it?

01:19:08.995 --> 01:19:14.498
And to Mr. Ham and his followers I say this is something we in science want.

01:19:14.498 --> 01:19:18.078
We want the ability to predict. And your assertion

01:19:18.078 --> 01:19:21.789
that there's some difference between the natural laws

01:19:21.789 --> 01:19:24.580
that I use to observe the world today and the natural laws

01:19:24.580 --> 01:19:29.867
that existed 4,000 years ago is extraordinary and unsettling.

01:19:31.313 --> 01:19:34.984
I travel around. I have a great many family members

01:19:35.015 --> 01:19:39.660
in Danville, Virginia, one of the U.S's most livable cities.

01:19:39.660 --> 01:19:46.463
It's lovely. And I was driving along and there was a sign in front of a church:

01:19:46.970 --> 01:19:50.107
"Big Bang theory? You got to be kidding me. God."

01:19:51.153 --> 01:19:55.837
Now, everybody, why would someone at the church, a pastor for example,

01:19:56.468 --> 01:20:03.212
put that sign up unless he or she didn't believe

01:20:03.212 --> 01:20:06.761
that the big bang was a real thing? I just want to review,

01:20:06.761 --> 01:20:09.588
briefly, with everybody why we accept,

01:20:09.973 --> 01:20:13.462
in the outside world, why we accept the Big Bang.

01:20:16.285 --> 01:20:22.180
Edwin Hubble, sorry, there you go,you gotta be kidding me God.

01:20:23.579 --> 01:20:28.557
Edwin Hubble was sitting at Mount Wilson, which is up from Pasadena, California.

01:20:28.989 --> 01:20:32.489
On a clear day you can look down and see where the Rose Parade goes.

01:20:32.966 --> 01:20:34.564
It's that close to civilization.

01:20:35.179 --> 01:20:39.978
But even in the early 1900's, the people who selected this site for astronomy

01:20:40.532 --> 01:20:44.923
picked an excellent site. The clouds and smog are below you.

01:20:45.677 --> 01:20:50.910
And Edwin Hubble sat there at this very big telescope night after night studying the heavens.

01:20:51.817 --> 01:20:57.793
And he found that the stars are moving apart. The stars are moving apart.

01:20:58.824 --> 01:21:06.904
And he wasn't sure why. But it was clear that the stars are moving farther and farther apart all the time.

01:21:07.704 --> 01:21:10.658
So people talked about it for a couple decades.

01:21:11.473 --> 01:21:15.521
And then eventually another astronomer, almost a couple decades, another astronomer

01:21:15.521 --> 01:21:19.599
Fred Hoyle just remarked, "Well, it was like there was a big bang.

01:21:20.537 --> 01:21:24.457
There was an explosion. This is to say; since everything's moving apart,

01:21:24.980 --> 01:21:27.744
it's very reasonable that at one time they were all together.

01:21:28.221 --> 01:21:32.216
And there's a place from whence, or rather whence, these things expanded."

01:21:32.863 --> 01:21:34.427
And it was a remarkable insight.

01:21:35.074 --> 01:21:38.502
But people went still questioning it for decades.

01:21:38.502 --> 01:21:43.144
Scientists, conventional scientists, questioning it for decades.

01:21:44.790 --> 01:21:51.342
These two researchers wanted to listen for radio signals from space--radio astronomy.

01:21:51.342 --> 01:21:57.836
And this is while we have visible light for our eyes, there is a whole other bunch of waves of light

01:21:57.836 --> 01:22:01.490
that are much longer. The microwaves in your oven are about that long.

01:22:01.490 --> 01:22:07.735
The radar at the airport is about that long. Your FM radio signals about like this.

01:22:08.659 --> 01:22:13.138
AM radio signals are a kilometer--they're a couple, several soccer fields.

01:22:14.354 --> 01:22:21.442
They went out listening. And there was this hiss, this hisssssss, all the time

01:22:21.442 --> 01:22:25.065
that wouldn't go away. And they thought "Oh! Doggone it. There's some loose

01:22:25.065 --> 01:22:29.624
connector." They plugged in the connector. They rescrewed it. They made it tight.

01:22:30.054 --> 01:22:31.849
They turned it this way. The hiss was still there.

01:22:31.849 --> 01:22:33.334
They turned it that way. It was still there.

01:22:33.627 --> 01:22:38.626
They thought it was pigeon droppings that had affected the reception of this "horn" it's called.

01:22:38.642 --> 01:22:42.323
This thing is still there. It's in Basking Ridge, New Jersey.

01:22:42.323 --> 01:22:49.219
It's a national historic site. And Arno Pinzius and Robert Wilson had found

01:22:49.372 --> 01:22:54.879
this cosmic background sound that was predicted by astronomers.

01:22:55.248 --> 01:22:58.935
Astronomers running the numbers, doing math, predicted

01:22:58.935 --> 01:23:02.399
that in the cosmos would be left over this echo,

01:23:02.399 --> 01:23:06.105
this energy, from the Big Bang that would be detectable.

01:23:06.690 --> 01:23:13.801
And they detected it. We built the Cosmic Observatory for Background Emissions, the COBE spacecraft,

01:23:13.801 --> 01:23:17.771
and it matched exactly, exactly the astronomers predictions.

01:23:18.725 --> 01:23:21.715
You gotta respect that. It's a wonderful thing.

01:23:22.699 --> 01:23:29.065
Now, along that line is some interest in the age of the earth.

01:23:29.496 --> 01:23:34.284
Right now, it's generally agreed that the Big Bang happened 13.7 billion years ago.

01:23:35.592 --> 01:23:40.906
What we can do on earth. These elements that we all know on the Periodic Table of Chemicals,

01:23:40.998 --> 01:23:46.249
even ones we don't know, were created when stars explode.

01:23:46.356 --> 01:23:51.242
And I look like nobody. But I attended a lecture by Hans Betta who won a Nobel

01:23:51.242 --> 01:23:55.553
Prize for discovering the process by which stars create all these elements.

01:23:56.323 --> 01:24:01.431
The one that interests me especially is our good friends Rubidium and Strontium.

01:24:02.385 --> 01:24:06.320
Rubidium becomes Strontium spontaneously. It's an interesting thing to me.

01:24:07.197 --> 01:24:11.410
A neutron becomes a proton. And it goes up the Periodic Table.

01:24:11.949 --> 01:24:14.406
When lava comes out of the ground, molten lava,

01:24:14.991 --> 01:24:18.587
and it freezes, turns to rock, when the melt solidifies,

01:24:18.587 --> 01:24:22.780
or crystalizes, it locks the Rubidium and Strontium in place.

01:24:23.410 --> 01:24:30.073
And so by careful assay, by careful, by being diligent, you can tell when the rock froze.

01:24:30.657 --> 01:24:35.637
You can tell how old the Rubidium and Strontium are. And you can get an age for the earth.

01:24:36.083 --> 01:24:42.144
When that stuff falls on fossils, you can get a very good idea of how old the fossils are.

01:24:42.144 --> 01:24:46.452
I encourage you all to go to Nebraska, go to Ashfall State Park

01:24:46.821 --> 01:24:51.455
and see the astonishing fossils. It looks like a Hollywood movie.

01:24:51.455 --> 01:24:56.119
There are rhinoceroses. There are three-toed horses in Nebraska.

01:24:56.688 --> 01:25:01.858
None of those animals are extant today. And they are buried, catastrophically, by a

01:25:01.858 --> 01:25:05.131
volcano in what is now Idaho. Is now Yellowstone National Park.

01:25:05.131 --> 01:25:07.829
What is called the hot spot. People call it the super-volcano.

01:25:08.552 --> 01:25:12.557
And it's the remarkable thing. Apparently, as I can tell you, as a Northwesterner around

01:25:12.557 --> 01:25:16.096
for Mount St. Helen's. For full disclosure I'm on the Mount St. Helen's Board.

01:25:16.989 --> 01:25:20.128
When it (explosive sound), when it goes off it gives out a great deal of gas

01:25:20.390 --> 01:25:24.622
that's toxic and knock these animals out. Looking for relief, they go to a watering

01:25:24.622 --> 01:25:28.875
hole. And then when the ash comes they were all buried. It's an extraordinary place.

01:25:29.659 --> 01:25:36.057
Now if in the bad old days, you had heart problems, they would right away cut you open.

01:25:36.919 --> 01:25:42.953
Now, we use a drug based on Rubidium to look at the inside of your heart without cutting you open.

01:25:44.030 --> 01:25:51.817
Now, my Kentucky friends, I want you to consider this. Right now, there is no place

01:25:51.817 --> 01:25:57.061
in the Commonwealth of Kentucky to get a degree in this kind of nuclear medicine--

01:25:57.061 --> 01:25:59.397
this kind of drugs associated with that.

01:25:59.967 --> 01:26:03.927
I hope you find that troubling. I hope you're concerned about that.

01:26:04.481 --> 01:26:10.660
You want scientifically literate students in your commonwealth for a better tomorrow for everybody.

01:26:11.552 --> 01:26:15.478
You can, you can't get this here. You have to go out of state.

01:26:16.293 --> 01:26:21.562
Now as far as the distance to stars. Understand this is very well understood.

01:26:22.315 --> 01:26:26.743
We, it's February. We look at a star in February. We measure an angle to it.

01:26:26.943 --> 01:26:31.406
We wait six months. We look at that same star again and we measure that angle.

01:26:31.406 --> 01:26:36.655
It's the same way carpenters built this building. It's the same way surveyors surveyed the land that we're standing on.

01:26:37.116 --> 01:26:41.957
And so by measuring the distance to a star, you can figure out how far away it is, that star,

01:26:41.957 --> 01:26:46.381
and the stars beyond it, and the stars beyond that. There are billions of stars.

01:26:46.381 --> 01:26:50.202
Billions of stars more than six thousand light years from here.

01:26:50.663 --> 01:26:54.287
A light year is a unit of distance, not a unit of time.

01:26:54.933 --> 01:27:00.982
There are billions of stars. Mr. Hamm, how could there be billions of stars more distant

01:27:00.982 --> 01:27:04.916
than six thousand years, if the world's only six thousand years old?

01:27:05.208 --> 01:27:12.137
It's an extraordinary claim. There's another astronomer, Adolphe Quetele, who remarked first

01:27:13.413 --> 01:27:23.805
about the reasonable man. Is it reasonable that we have ice older by a factor of a hundred than you claim the earth is?

01:27:23.836 --> 01:27:26.769
We have trees that have more tree rings than the earth is old.

01:27:27.123 --> 01:27:32.983
We have rocks with Rubidium and Strontium, and Uranium-Uranium, and Potassium-Argon dating

01:27:32.998 --> 01:27:36.669
that are far, far, far older than you claim the earth is.

01:27:36.884 --> 01:27:43.326
Could anybody have built an ark that would sustain the better than any ark anybody was able to build on the earth?

01:27:44.172 --> 01:27:48.402
So, if you're asking me, and I got the impression you were,

01:27:49.048 --> 01:27:55.266
is Ken Hamm's creation model viable? I say "No! Absolutely not!"

01:27:55.742 --> 01:28:01.672
Now, one last thing. You may not know that in the US Constitution, from the founding fathers,

01:28:02.396 --> 01:28:06.158
is the sentence "to promote the progress of science and useful arts..."

01:28:08.281 --> 01:28:11.840
Kentucky voters, voters who might be watching online,

01:28:12.024 --> 01:28:16.838
in places like Texas, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kansas, please

01:28:16.838 --> 01:28:19.761
you don't want to raise a generation of science students

01:28:19.761 --> 01:28:23.796
who don't understand how we know our place in the cosmos,

01:28:23.796 --> 01:28:26.052
our place in space, who don't understand natural law.

01:28:26.498 --> 01:28:30.057
We need to innovate to keep the United States where it is in the world.

01:28:30.807 --> 01:28:35.929
Thank you very much. (applause)

01:28:48.561 --> 01:28:51.118
Moderator: That's a lot to take in. I hope everybody's holding up well.

01:28:51.565 --> 01:28:55.027
That's a lot of information. What we're going to have now is a five minute

01:28:55.412 --> 01:28:58.993
rebuttal time for each gentleman to address the other one's comments.

01:28:59.393 --> 01:29:03.304
And then there will be a five minute counter rebuttal after that.

01:29:04.397 --> 01:29:06.221
Things are going to start moving a little more quickly now.

01:29:06.221 --> 01:29:10.776
So at this point in particular, I want to make sure we don't have applauding or anything else going on that slows it down.

01:29:11.145 --> 01:29:14.804
So, Mr. Hamm, if you'd like to begin with your five minute rebuttal first.

01:29:25.140 --> 01:29:30.124
Mr. Hamm: First of all, Bill, if I was to answer all the points that you brought up,

01:29:30.497 --> 01:29:33.841
the moderator would think that I was going on for millions of years. (laughter)

01:29:34.041 --> 01:29:35.378
So I can only deal with some of them.

01:29:35.778 --> 01:29:39.373
And you mentioned the age of the earth a couple of times, so let me deal with that.

01:29:40.096 --> 01:29:48.694
As I said in my presentation, you can't observe the age of the earth. I would say that comes under what we call historical origin science.

01:29:48.940 --> 01:29:51.514
Now, just so you understand where I'm coming from.

01:29:52.037 --> 01:29:56.782
Yes, we admit we build our origins from historical science on the Bible.

01:29:57.290 --> 01:30:02.280
The Bible says God created in six days. A Hebrew word "yon" as it's used in Genesis 1

01:30:02.280 --> 01:30:05.833
with evening/morning number means an ordinary day. Adam was made on day six.

01:30:06.387 --> 01:30:09.737
And so, when you add up all those geneologies specifically given in the Bible

01:30:10.460 --> 01:30:20.023
from Adam to Abraham you've got 2,000 years; from Abraham to Christ 2,000 years; from Christ to the present 2,000 years.

01:30:20.023 --> 01:30:23.613
That's how we get 6,000 years. So that's where it comes from. Just so you know.

01:30:24.059 --> 01:30:29.788
Now a lot of people say. Now, by the way, the earth's age is 4.5 billion years old.

01:30:30.618 --> 01:30:34.737
And we have radioactive decay dating methods that found that.

01:30:35.368 --> 01:30:38.283
But you see, we certainly observe radioactive decay

01:30:38.606 --> 01:30:42.380
whether it's rubidium-strontium, whether it's uranium-lead, potassium-argon

01:30:42.733 --> 01:30:45.627
But when you're talking about the past, we have a problem.

01:30:46.381 --> 01:30:49.564
I'll give you a practical example. In Australia, there were engineers

01:30:49.564 --> 01:30:53.163
that were trying to search out about a coal mine.

01:30:53.163 --> 01:30:58.044
And so they drilled down and they found a basalt layer, a lava flow that had woody material in it--

01:30:58.044 --> 01:31:04.387
branches and twigs and so on. And when Dr. Andrew Snelling, our PhD geologist,

01:31:04.387 --> 01:31:08.519
sent that to a lab in Massachusetts in 1994, they used potassium-argon

01:31:08.519 --> 01:31:10.688
dating and dated it at 45 million years old.

01:31:11.258 --> 01:31:15.563
Well, he also sent the wood to the radio-carbon section of the same lab

01:31:15.563 --> 01:31:20.069
and that dated at 45,000 years old. 45,000 year old wood in 45 million year old rock.

01:31:20.315 --> 01:31:21.898
The point is there's a problem.

01:31:22.728 --> 01:31:24.626
Let me give you another example of a problem.

01:31:25.241 --> 01:31:29.692
There was a lava dome that started to form in the 80's after Mt. St. Helen's erupted.

01:31:30.385 --> 01:31:36.568
And in 1994 Dr. Steve Austin, another PhD geologist, actually sampled the rock there.

01:31:37.121 --> 01:31:45.127
He took whole rock, crushed it, sent it to the same lab actually, I believe, and got a date of .35 million years.

01:31:45.327 --> 01:31:50.243
When he separated out the minerals amphibole and pyroxene and used potassium-argon dating,

01:31:50.535 --> 01:31:56.903
he got .9 million and 2.8 million. My point is all these dating methods actually give all sorts of different dates.

01:31:56.903 --> 01:32:01.937
In fact, different dating methods on the same rock, we can show, give all sorts of different dates.

01:32:02.230 --> 01:32:04.811
See there's lots of assumptions in regard to radioactive dating.

01:32:04.872 --> 01:32:09.409
Number one, for instance, the amounts of the parent and daughter isotopes at the beginning when the rock formed.

01:32:09.409 --> 01:32:12.388
We have to know them. But you weren't there. See that's historical science.

01:32:12.696 --> 01:32:20.368
Assumption 2: that all daughter atoms measured today must have only been derived in situ radioactive decay of parent atoms.

01:32:20.368 --> 01:32:21.750
In other words it's a closed system.

01:32:21.750 --> 01:32:24.270
But you don't know that. And there's a lot of evidence that that's not so.

01:32:24.809 --> 01:32:28.710
Assumption Number 3: that the decay rates have remained a constant.

01:32:29.048 --> 01:32:30.739
Now they're just some of them. There's others as well.

01:32:30.739 --> 01:32:33.648
The point is there's lots of assumptions in regard to the dating methods.

01:32:33.648 --> 01:32:39.495
So there's no dating method you can use that you can absolutely age date a rock.

01:32:39.495 --> 01:32:41.768
There's all sorts of differences out there.

01:32:42.245 --> 01:32:46.128
And I do want to address the bit you brought up about Christians believing in millions of years.

01:32:46.128 --> 01:32:48.269
Yeah, there's a lot of Christians out there that believe in millions of years,

01:32:48.269 --> 01:32:52.234
but I'd say they have a problem. I'm not saying they're not Christians, but

01:32:52.234 --> 01:32:55.819
because salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ, not the age of the earth.

01:32:55.942 --> 01:32:58.425
But there's an inconsistency with what the Bible teaches.

01:32:58.702 --> 01:33:03.818
If you believe in millions of years, you've got death and bloodshed, suffering, and disease

01:33:04.325 --> 01:33:07.810
over millions of years leading to man, because that's what you see in the fossil record.

01:33:07.810 --> 01:33:11.208
The Bible makes it very clear death is a result of man's sin.

01:33:11.208 --> 01:33:15.801
In fact, the first death was in the garden when God killed an animal, clothed Adam and Eve,

01:33:16.247 --> 01:33:20.334
first blood sacrifice pointing towards what would happen with Jesus Christ.

01:33:20.642 --> 01:33:23.759
He would be the one who would die once and for all.

01:33:23.759 --> 01:33:27.153
Now if you believe in millions of years as a Christian, in the fossil record

01:33:27.153 --> 01:33:30.948
there's evidence of animals eating each other, Bible says originally all the animals

01:33:30.948 --> 01:33:35.346
and man were vegetarian. We weren't told we could eat meat until after the flood.

01:33:35.346 --> 01:33:39.873
There's diseases represented in the fossil record like brain tumors, but the Bible

01:33:39.873 --> 01:33:41.911
says when God made everything it was very good.

01:33:41.911 --> 01:33:43.820
God doesn't call brain tumors very good.

01:33:44.174 --> 01:33:47.909
There's fossilized thorns in the fossil record said to be hundreds of millions of years old,

01:33:47.909 --> 01:33:50.742
the Bible says thorns came after the curse.

01:33:51.019 --> 01:33:53.103
So these two things can't be true at the same time.

01:33:53.642 --> 01:33:56.765
You know what? There's hundreds of dating methods out there, hundreds of them.

01:33:57.027 --> 01:34:03.591
Actually, 90% of them contradict billions of years. And the point is, all such dating methods are fallible.

01:34:03.591 --> 01:34:07.808
And I claim, there's only one infallible dating method, it's a witness who was there,

01:34:07.808 --> 01:34:11.397
who knows everything, who told us. And that's from the word of God.

01:34:11.397 --> 01:34:16.570
And that's why I would say that the earth is only 6,000 years. And, as Dr. Faulkner said,

01:34:16.570 --> 01:34:20.221
there's nothing in astronomy, and certainly Dr. Snelling would say, there's nothing in geology

01:34:20.221 --> 01:34:25.437
to contradict a belief in a young age for the earth and the universe.

01:34:25.837 --> 01:34:28.397
Moderator: Thank you Mr. Ham. Mr. Nye, your five-minute rebuttal please.

01:34:29.227 --> 01:34:32.098
Mr. Nye: Thank you very much. Let me start with the beginning.

01:34:32.667 --> 01:34:37.014
If you find 45 million year old rock on top of 45 thousand year old trees,

01:34:37.014 --> 01:34:42.507
maybe the rock slid on top. Maybe that's it. That seems much more reasonable explanation

01:34:42.507 --> 01:34:49.599
than, "It's impossible." Then as far as dating goes, actually the methods are

01:34:49.599 --> 01:34:54.850
very reliable. One of the mysteries, or interesting things that people in my business,

01:34:54.850 --> 01:35:00.241
especially at the Planetary Society, are interested in is why all the asteroids seem to be

01:35:00.241 --> 01:35:06.838
so close to the same date in age. It's 4.5, 4.6 billion years.

01:35:06.838 --> 01:35:10.976
It's a remarkable thing. People at first expected a little more of a spread.

01:35:11.437 --> 01:35:19.792
So, I understand that you take the Bible as written in English, translated countless,

01:35:20.007 --> 01:35:26.012
not countless, but many, many times over the last three millenia as to be a more accurate,

01:35:26.012 --> 01:35:29.061
more reasonable assessment of the natural laws we see around us

01:35:29.061 --> 01:35:37.613
than what I and everybody in here can observe. That to me is unsettling, troubling.

01:35:37.951 --> 01:35:46.924
And then about the disease thing, are the fish sinners? Have they done something wrong to get diseases?

01:35:48.155 --> 01:35:54.536
That's sort of an extraordinary claim that takes me just a little past what I'm comfortable with.

01:35:55.074 --> 01:36:00.739
And then, as far as you can't observe the past, I have to stop you right there.

01:36:00.739 --> 01:36:02.380
That's what we do in astronomy.

01:36:02.641 --> 01:36:06.081
All we can do in astronomy is look at the past.

01:36:06.373 --> 01:36:12.912
By the way, you're looking at the past right now. Because the speed of light bounces off of me

01:36:12.912 --> 01:36:18.557
and then gets to your eyes. And I'm delighted to see that the people in the back of the room

01:36:18.557 --> 01:36:22.115
appear just that much younger than the people in the front.

01:36:23.853 --> 01:36:31.980
So this idea that you can separate the natural laws of the past from the natural laws that we have now,

01:36:31.980 --> 01:36:37.564
I think is at the heart of our disagreement. 
I don't see how we're ever going to agree with that

01:36:37.564 --> 01:36:43.932
if you insist that natural laws have changed. It's, for lack of a better word, it's magical.

01:36:44.408 --> 01:36:50.287
And I have appreciated magic since I was a kid, but it's not really what we want

01:36:50.287 --> 01:37:01.524
in conventional, mainstream science. So, your assertion that all the animals were vegetarians

01:37:02.570 --> 01:37:09.790
before they got on the ark. That's really remarkable. I have not spent a lot of time with lions,

01:37:10.497 --> 01:37:14.014
but I can tell they've got teeth that really aren't set up for broccoli.

01:37:16.276 --> 01:37:22.165
That these animals were vegetarians til this flood is something that I would ask you

01:37:22.165 --> 01:37:28.988
to provide a little more proof for. I give you the lion's teeth, you give me verses

01:37:28.988 --> 01:37:33.530
as translated into English over, what, 30 centuries?

01:37:34.053 --> 01:37:39.608
So, that's not enough evidence for me. If you've ever played telephone, I did, I remember very well

01:37:39.608 --> 01:37:43.125
in kindergarten where you have a secret and you whisper it to the next person, to the next person,

01:37:43.125 --> 01:37:50.520
to the next person. Things often go wrong. So it's very reasonable to me that instead of lions being vegetarians on the ark,

01:37:51.935 --> 01:38:01.799
lions are lions, and the information that you used to create your world view is not consistent with

01:38:01.799 --> 01:38:11.112
what I, as a reasonable man, would expect. So, I want everybody to consider the implications of this.

01:38:12.281 --> 01:38:23.385
If we accept Mr. Ham's point of view, that the Bible as translated into American English,

01:38:24.631 --> 01:38:31.144
serves as a science text, and that he and his followers will interpret that for you,

01:38:32.129 --> 01:38:39.596
Just, I want you to consider what that means. It means that Mr. Ham's word or his interpretation

01:38:39.596 --> 01:38:46.413
of these other words, is somehow to be more respected than what you can observe in nature.

01:38:46.413 --> 01:38:50.174
Than what you can find literally in your backyard, in Kentucky.

01:38:50.912 --> 01:38:58.154
It's a troubling and unsettling point of view, and it's one I very much like you to address when you come back.

01:38:58.815 --> 01:39:03.829
As far as the five races that you mentioned, it's kind of the same thing.

01:39:04.336 --> 01:39:07.966
The five races were claimed by people who were of European descent,

01:39:07.966 --> 01:39:12.031
and said, "Hey, we're the best! Check us out!" And that turns out to be,

01:39:12.031 --> 01:39:16.809
if you've ever traveled anywhere or done anything, not to be that way.

01:39:16.809 --> 01:39:19.087
People are much more alike than they are different.

01:39:19.518 --> 01:39:25.977
So, are we supposed to take your word for English words translated over the last 30 centuries,

01:39:26.485 --> 01:39:29.302
instead of what we can observe in the universe around us?

01:39:30.332 --> 01:39:33.878
Moderator: Very good. And Mr. Ham, would you like to offer your five minute counter rebuttal?

01:39:37.601 --> 01:39:41.070
Ken Ham: Uh, first of all, Bill, just so, I just don't want a misunderstanding here,

01:39:41.454 --> 01:39:47.258
and that is, the 45,000-year-old wood, or supposedly 45,000 was inside the basalt.

01:39:47.673 --> 01:39:54.473
Um, so, it was encased in the basalt. Uh, and that's why I was making that particular point.

01:39:54.919 --> 01:39:59.531
And I would also say that natural law hasn't changed. As I talked about, you know,

01:39:59.531 --> 01:40:03.693
I said we had the laws of logic, the uniformity of nature. And that only makes sense

01:40:03.693 --> 01:40:07.549
within a biblical worldview anyway, of a creator God, who set up those laws,

01:40:07.549 --> 01:40:11.237
and that's why we can do good experimental science, because we assume those laws are true,

01:40:11.237 --> 01:40:20.316
and they'll be true tomorrow. I do want to say this. that you said a few times, you know,

01:40:20.316 --> 01:40:26.094
Ken Ham's view or model. It's not just Ken Ham's model. We have a number of PhD scientists

01:40:26.094 --> 01:40:31.479
on our own staff. I quoted, had video quotes, from some scientists.

01:40:31.479 --> 01:40:40.085
It's Dr. Damadian's model. It's Dr. Fabich's model. It's Dr. Faulkner's model. It's Dr. Snelling's model.

01:40:40.085 --> 01:40:44.838
It's Dr. Purdom's model. And so it goes on, in other words. And you go on our website,

01:40:44.838 --> 01:40:50.804
and there are lots of creation scientists who agree with exactly what we're saying concerning

01:40:50.804 --> 01:40:56.731
the Bible's account of creation. So it's not just "my model" in that sense.

01:40:58.392 --> 01:41:05.310
There is so much that I can say, but, as I listen to you, I believe you're confusing terms

01:41:05.310 --> 01:41:11.040
in regard to species and kinds. Because we're not saying that God created all those species.

01:41:11.040 --> 01:41:15.967
We're saying God created kinds. And we're not saying species got on the ark, we're saying kinds.

01:41:15.967 --> 01:41:19.757
In fact, we've had researchers working on what is a kind. For instance, there's a number of papers,

01:41:19.757 --> 01:41:23.591
published on our website, where, for instance, they look at dogs. And they say, well, this one

01:41:23.591 --> 01:41:28.378
breeds with this one, with this one, with this one. And you can look at all the papers around the world

01:41:28.378 --> 01:41:32.019
and you can connect them all together and say that obviously represents one kind.

01:41:32.019 --> 01:41:36.555
In fact, as they have been doing that research, they have predicted probably less than actually a thousand

01:41:36.555 --> 01:41:42.043
kinds were on Noah's ark, which means just over 2,000 animals. And the average size of a land animal

01:41:42.043 --> 01:41:48.371
is not that big so, you know, there was plenty of room on the ark. I also believe that

01:41:48.371 --> 01:41:52.982
a lot of what you were saying was really illustrating my point. Uh, you were talking about tree rings

01:41:52.982 --> 01:41:58.255
and ice layers and, just talking about kangaroos getting to Australia, and all sorts of things like that.

01:41:58.255 --> 01:42:03.416
But see, we're talking about the past, when we weren't there. We didn't see those tree rings actually forming.

01:42:03.416 --> 01:42:10.094
We didn't see those layers being laid down. You know, in 1942, for instance, there were some planes

01:42:10.094 --> 01:42:15.198
that landed on the ice in Greenland. They found them, what, 46 years later, I think it was,

01:42:15.198 --> 01:42:20.132
three miles away from the original location with 250 feet of ice buried on top of them.

01:42:20.132 --> 01:42:24.476
So, ice can build up catastrophically. If you assume one layer a year, or something like that,

01:42:24.476 --> 01:42:30.021
it's like the dating methods. You are assuming things in regard to the past that aren't necessarily true.

01:42:30.621 --> 01:42:39.188
In regard to lions and teeth, bears, most bears have teeth very much like a lion or tiger, and yet, most bears

01:42:39.188 --> 01:42:42.879
are primarily vegetarian. The panda, if you look at its teeth, you'd say, maybe it should be a

01:42:42.879 --> 01:42:48.398
savage carnivore. It eats mainly bamboo. The little fruit bat in Australia has really sharp teeth,

01:42:48.398 --> 01:42:51.447
looks like a savage little creature, and it rips into fruit.

01:42:51.447 --> 01:42:56.432
Uh, so, just cause an animal has sharp teeth doesn't mean it's a meat eater. It means it has sharp teeth.

01:42:56.786 --> 01:43:03.063
Uh, so again, it really comes down to our interpretation of these things.

01:43:03.247 --> 01:43:07.414
I think too, in regard to the Missoula, uh, example that you gave, you know,

01:43:07.414 --> 01:43:10.160
creationists do believe there's been post-flood catastrophism.

01:43:10.976 --> 01:43:17.825
Noah's flood, certainly, was a catastrophic event. But then there's been post-flood catastrophism since that time as well.

01:43:18.148 --> 01:43:22.166
And again, in regard to historical science, why would you say Noah was unskilled?

01:43:22.166 --> 01:43:28.848
I mean, I didn't meet Noah, and neither did you. And you know, really, it's an evolutionary view of origins I believe

01:43:28.848 --> 01:43:31.995
cause you're thinking in terms people before us aren't as good as us.

01:43:31.995 --> 01:43:37.098
Hey, there are civilizations that existed in the past, and we look at their technology,

01:43:37.098 --> 01:43:41.098
and we can't even understand today how they did some of the things that they did.

01:43:41.098 --> 01:43:45.177
Who says Noah couldn't build a big boat? By the way, the Chinese and the Egyptians built boats.

01:43:45.177 --> 01:43:49.085
In fact, some of our research indicates that some of the wooden boats that were built

01:43:49.085 --> 01:43:52.827
had three layers interlocking so they wouldn't twist like that and leak, which is why,

01:43:52.827 --> 01:43:58.876
here at the Creation Museum, we have an exhibit on the ark, where we've rebuilt 1% of the ark to scale

01:43:59.199 --> 01:44:03.946
and shown three interlocking layers like that. And one last thing, concerning the speed of light,

01:44:04.438 --> 01:44:09.895
and that is, I'm sure you're aware of the horizon problem. And that is, from a Big Bang perspective,

01:44:09.895 --> 01:44:15.428
even the secularists have a problem of getting light and radiation out to the universe

01:44:15.428 --> 01:44:20.620
to be able to exchange with the rest of the universe, to get that even microwave background radiation.

01:44:20.620 --> 01:44:27.123
On their model, 15 billion years or so, they can only get it about halfway.

01:44:27.123 --> 01:44:32.128
And that's why they have inflation theories, which means, everyone has a problem concerning the light issue.

01:44:32.128 --> 01:44:35.769
There's things people don't understand. And we have some models on our website

01:44:35.769 --> 01:44:39.063
by some of our scientists to help explain those sorts of things.

01:44:40.186 --> 01:44:41.792
Moderator: Mr. Nye, your counter rebuttal.

01:44:42.808 --> 01:44:45.040
Bill Nye: Thank you Mr. Ham, but I'm completely unsatisfied.

01:44:45.871 --> 01:44:53.526
You did not, in my view, address this fundamental question. 680,000 years of snow ice layers

01:44:53.526 --> 01:44:59.590
which require winter summer cycle. Let's say you have 2,000 kinds instead of seven.

01:44:59.590 --> 01:45:06.031
That makes the problem even more extraordinary, multiplying eleven by what's, three and a half?

01:45:06.554 --> 01:45:13.441
We get to 35... 40 species every day that we don't see, they're not extant.

01:45:13.441 --> 01:45:19.991
In fact, you probably know we're losing species due to mostly human activity and the loss of habitat.

01:45:21.037 --> 01:45:25.601
Then, as far as Noah being an extraordinary shipwright, I'm very skeptical.

01:45:25.786 --> 01:45:32.611
The shipwrights, my ancestors, the Nye family in New England, took, spent their whole life learning to make ships.

01:45:33.304 --> 01:45:38.556
I mean, it's very reasonable, perhaps, to you that Noah had superpowers

01:45:38.556 --> 01:45:45.683
and was able to build this extraordinary craft with seven family members, but to me, it's just not reasonable.

01:45:47.529 --> 01:45:53.088
Then, uh, by the way, the fundamental thing we disagree on, Mr. Ham,

01:45:53.088 --> 01:46:00.821
is this nature of what you can prove to yourself. This is to say, when people make assumptions

01:46:01.913 --> 01:46:06.577
based on radiometric data, when they make assumptions about the expanding universe,

01:46:06.577 --> 01:46:13.043
when they make assumptions about the rate at which genes change in populations of bacteria

01:46:13.043 --> 01:46:20.117
in laboratory growth media, they are making assumptions based on previous experience.

01:46:20.117 --> 01:46:25.726
They're not coming out of whole cloth. So, next time you have a chance to speak,

01:46:25.726 --> 01:46:35.171
I encourage you to explain to us why... why we should accept your word for it that natural law changed

01:46:36.878 --> 01:46:43.691
just 4,000 years ago, completely. And there's no record of it. You know, there are pyramids that are older than that.

01:46:43.691 --> 01:46:50.892
There are human populations that are far older than that, with traditions that go back farther that that.

01:46:51.415 --> 01:46:55.925
And it's just not reasonable to me that everything changed 4,000 years ago.

01:46:55.925 --> 01:47:02.170
By everything, I mean the species, the surface of the Earth, the stars in the sky,

01:47:02.831 --> 01:47:06.830
and the relationship of all the other living things on Earth to humans.

01:47:06.830 --> 01:47:10.548
It's just not reasonable to me that everything changed like that. (Snaps fingers.)

01:47:11.455 --> 01:47:15.284
And another thing I would very much appreciate you addressing:

01:47:16.299 --> 01:47:21.410
there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious. And I respect that.

01:47:21.994 --> 01:47:28.041
People get tremendous community and comfort and nurture and support from their religious fellows

01:47:28.041 --> 01:47:31.813
in their communities, in their faiths, in their churches.

01:47:32.397 --> 01:47:35.020
And yet, they don't accept your point of view.

01:47:35.943 --> 01:47:42.581
There are Christians who don't accept that the Earth could somehow be this extraordinary young age

01:47:42.581 --> 01:47:48.520
because of all the evidence around them. And so, what is to become of them, in your view?

01:47:49.366 --> 01:47:56.620
And by the way, this thing started, as I understand it, Ken Ham's creation model is based on the Old Testament.

01:47:57.127 --> 01:48:01.652
So when you bring in, I'm not a theologian, when you bring in the New Testament,

01:48:01.652 --> 01:48:09.059
isn't that little, uh, out of the box? I'm looking for explanations of the creation of the world

01:48:09.059 --> 01:48:17.393
as we know it, uh, based on what I'm gonna call science. Not historical science, not observational science.

01:48:17.393 --> 01:48:23.369
Science: things that each of us can do akin to what we do, we're trying to outguess the characters

01:48:23.369 --> 01:48:30.668
on murder mystery shows, on crime scene investigation, especially.

01:48:31.468 --> 01:48:34.770
What is to become of all those people, who don't see it your way?

01:48:35.540 --> 01:48:41.657
For us, in the scientific community, I remind you, that when we find an idea that's not tenable,

01:48:41.657 --> 01:48:49.434
that doesn't work, that doesn't fly, doesn't hold water, whatever idiom you'd like to embrace, we throw it away.

01:48:49.634 --> 01:48:54.980
We are delighted. That's why I say, if you can find a fossil that has swum between the layers, bring it on!

01:48:55.687 --> 01:49:00.806
You would change the world. If you could show that somehow the microwave background radiation

01:49:00.806 --> 01:49:06.428
is not a result of the Big Bang, come on! Write your paper. Tear it up!

01:49:07.412 --> 01:49:14.270
So, your view, that we're supposed to take your word for this book written centuries ago,

01:49:14.270 --> 01:49:20.993
translated into American English, is somehow more important that what I can see with my own eyes,

01:49:20.993 --> 01:49:27.304
is an extraordinary claim. And, for those watching online, especially, I want to remind you

01:49:27.304 --> 01:49:31.158
that we need scientists, and especially engineers for the future.

01:49:31.727 --> 01:49:36.762
Engineers use science to solve problems and make things. We need these people

01:49:36.777 --> 01:49:40.833
so that the United States can continue to innovate and continue to be a world leader.

01:49:41.340 --> 01:49:45.717
We need innovation, and that needs science education. Thank you.

01:49:46.024 --> 01:49:51.367
Moderator: All right. Thank you both. Uh, now we're going to get to the things moving a little bit faster.

01:49:51.629 --> 01:49:55.390
I think they might be quite interesting here. It's 40 to 45 minutes, maybe a little bit more, actually.

01:49:55.390 --> 01:50:00.379
We'll have a little more. For questions and answers submitted by our audience here in the Creation Museum.

01:50:00.379 --> 01:50:04.787
Beforehand, we handed out these cards to everyone. I shuffled them here in the back,

01:50:04.787 --> 01:50:07.951
and in fact, I dropped a lot of them, and then I scooped them up again.

01:50:07.951 --> 01:50:13.935
And if you saw me sorting through them here, it was to get a pile for Mr. Nye and a pile for Mr. Ham,

01:50:14.319 --> 01:50:18.916
so that we can alternate reasonably between them. Other than that, the only reason I will skip over one

01:50:18.916 --> 01:50:23.953
is if I can't read it, or if it's a question that I don't know how to read because it doesn't seem to make any sense,

01:50:23.953 --> 01:50:27.247
which sometimes happens just because of the way people write. (Audience laughs.)

01:50:27.247 --> 01:50:31.448
What's going to happen is we're gonna go back and forth between Mr. Nye and Mr. Ham.

01:50:31.448 --> 01:50:36.797
Each debater will have two minutes to answer the question addressed to him,

01:50:36.797 --> 01:50:41.846
and then the other will have one minute to also answer the question, even though it was addressed to the other man.

01:50:41.846 --> 01:50:44.671
And I did pull one card aside here, because I noticed it was to both men.

01:50:44.671 --> 01:50:49.105
So we may be able to get to that at some point. Mr. Ham, you've been up first, if you'll hop up first this time.

01:50:49.105 --> 01:50:52.449
And Mr. Nye, you can stand by for your responses. Two minutes.

01:50:52.802 --> 01:51:00.277
How does creationism account for the celestial bodies: planets, stars, moons moving further and further apart?

01:51:00.277 --> 01:51:03.209
And what function does that serve in the grand design?

01:51:04.870 --> 01:51:10.163
Ken Ham: Well, when it comes to looking at the universe, of course, we believe, that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

01:51:10.163 --> 01:51:15.514
And I believe our creationist astronomers would say, "Yeah, you can observe the universe expanding."

01:51:16.067 --> 01:51:20.743
Why God is doing that? In fact, in Bible it even says He stretches out the heavens.

01:51:20.743 --> 01:51:24.894
And seems to indicate that there is an expansion of the universe.

01:51:24.894 --> 01:51:30.864
And so, we would say, yeah, you can observe that. That fits with what we call observational science.

01:51:30.864 --> 01:51:35.231
Exactly why God did it that way? I can't answer that question, of course,

01:51:35.231 --> 01:51:40.222
because, you know, the Bible says that God made the heavens for his glory.

01:51:40.222 --> 01:51:47.367
And that's why he made the stars that we see out there. And it's to tell us how great He is and how big He is.

01:51:47.367 --> 01:51:53.316
And in fact, I think that's the thing about the universe. The universe is so large, so big out there.

01:51:53.316 --> 01:51:59.139
One of our planetarium programs looks at this. We go in and show you how large the universe is.

01:51:59.386 --> 01:52:05.614
And I think it shows us how great God is, how big He is, that He's an all-powerful God,

01:52:05.614 --> 01:52:12.316
He's an infinite God, an infinite, all-knowing God who created the universe to show us his power.

01:52:12.316 --> 01:52:16.325
I mean, can you imagine that, and the thing that's really remarkable in the Bible.

01:52:16.571 --> 01:52:20.993
For instance, it says on the fourth day of creation, and oh, he made the stars also.

01:52:21.285 --> 01:52:26.773
It's almost like, "Oh, by the way, I made the stars." Um, and just to show us He's an all-powerful God.

01:52:26.773 --> 01:52:31.494
He's an infinite God. So, "I made the stars." And he made them to show us how great He is.

01:52:31.494 --> 01:52:35.478
And He is. He's an infinite creator God. And the more that you understand what that means,

01:52:35.478 --> 01:52:41.464
that God is all-powerful, infinite, you stand back in awe. You realize how small we are.

01:52:41.464 --> 01:52:48.440
You realize, wow, that God would consider this planet, is so significant that he created human beings here,

01:52:48.440 --> 01:52:52.920
knowing they would sin, and yet stepped into history to die for us and be raised from the dead.

01:52:53.536 --> 01:52:57.349
Our verse, the free gift of salvation. Wow! What a God!

01:52:57.349 --> 01:53:00.601
And that's what I would say when I see the universe as it is.

01:53:01.017 --> 01:53:02.858
Moderator: Mr. Nye, one minute. And your response?

01:53:03.766 --> 01:53:11.101
Bill Nye: There's a question that troubles us all from the time when we are absolutely youngest and first able to think.

01:53:11.331 --> 01:53:15.008
And that is, where did we come from? Where did I come from?

01:53:15.577 --> 01:53:21.239
And this question is so compelling that we've invented the science of astronomy.

01:53:21.546 --> 01:53:24.669
We've invented life science. We've invented physics.

01:53:24.684 --> 01:53:31.212
We've discovered these natural laws so that we can learn more about our origin and where we came from.

01:53:31.519 --> 01:53:38.392
To you, when it says, He invented the stars also, that's satisfying. You're done.

01:53:38.930 --> 01:53:43.518
Oh, good. Okay. To me, when I look at the night sky, I want to know what's out there.

01:53:43.518 --> 01:53:50.016
I'm driven. I want to know if what's out there is any part of me, and indeed, it is.

01:53:50.723 --> 01:53:55.128
The "oh, by the way" I find compelling you are satisfied.

01:53:55.128 --> 01:54:00.463
And the big thing I want from you, Mr. Ham, is can you come up with something that you can predict?

01:54:00.463 --> 01:54:04.860
Do you have a creation model that predicts something that will happen in nature?

01:54:04.860 --> 01:54:08.385
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Nye, the next question is for you.

01:54:08.831 --> 01:54:11.703
How did the atoms that created the Big Bang get there?

01:54:12.395 --> 01:54:20.365
Bill Nye: This is the great mystery. You've hit the nail on the head. No, this is so, where did, what was before the Big Bang?

01:54:20.795 --> 01:54:25.507
This is what drives us. This is what we want to know. Let's keep looking. Let's keep searching.

01:54:26.015 --> 01:54:31.382
Uh, when I was young, it was presumed that the universe was slowing down.

01:54:31.674 --> 01:54:37.697
It's a big bang, phrooo! Except it's in outer space, there's no air, so (quietly) it goes out like that.

01:54:38.420 --> 01:54:44.638
And so people presumed that it would slow down, that the universe, the gravity, especially,

01:54:44.638 --> 01:54:48.757
would hold everything together and maybe it's going to come back and explode again.

01:54:48.757 --> 01:54:52.335
And people went out. And the mathematical expression is: is the universe flat?

01:54:52.335 --> 01:54:58.134
It's a mathematical expression. Will the universe slow down, slow down, slow down asymptotically without ever stopping?

01:54:58.687 --> 01:55:06.492
Well, in 2004, Saul Perlmutter and his colleagues went looking for the rate at which the universe was slowing down.

01:55:07.707 --> 01:55:12.135
Let's go out and measure it. And we're doing it with this extraordinary system of telescopes around the world,

01:55:12.642 --> 01:55:19.354
looking at the night sky, looking for supernovae. These are a standard brightness that you can infer distances with.

01:55:19.969 --> 01:55:25.566
And the universe isn't slowing down. It's accelerating! The universe is accelerating in its expansion.

01:55:25.566 --> 01:55:31.242
And do you know why? Nobody knows why! (audience laughs) Nobody knows why.

01:55:31.795 --> 01:55:37.972
And you'll hear the expression nowadays, dark energy, dark matter, which are mathematical ideas that seem

01:55:37.972 --> 01:55:45.298
to reckon well with what seems to be the gravitational attraction of clusters of stars, galaxies, and their expansion.

01:55:45.482 --> 01:55:52.302
And then, isn't it reasonable that whatever's out there, causing the universe to expand, is here also?

01:55:52.841 --> 01:55:55.022
And we just haven't figured out how to detect it.

01:55:55.468 --> 01:56:01.724
My friends, suppose a science student from the commonwealth of Kentucky pursues a career in science

01:56:02.185 --> 01:56:08.896
and finds out the answer to that deep question? Where did we come from? What was before the Big Bang?

01:56:08.896 --> 01:56:13.919
To us, this is wonderful and charming and compelling. This is what makes us get up and go to work everyday,

01:56:14.042 --> 01:56:16.282
is to try to solve the mysteries of the universe.

01:56:16.282 --> 01:56:18.820
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham, a response?

01:56:19.036 --> 01:56:22.242
Ken Ham: Uh, Bill, I just want to let you know that there actually is

01:56:22.242 --> 01:56:27.818
a book out there that actually tells us where matter came from. (Audience laughs.)

01:56:27.818 --> 01:56:33.640
And, the very first sentence in that book says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

01:56:34.040 --> 01:56:39.293
And really, that's the only thing that makes sense. That's the only thing that makes sense of why, not just matter is here,

01:56:39.293 --> 01:56:49.209
where it came from, but why matter, when you look at it, we have information and language systems that build life.

01:56:49.270 --> 01:56:53.842
We're not just matter. And where did that come from? Because matter can never produce information.

01:56:53.842 --> 01:56:57.849
Matter can never produce a language system. Languages only come from intelligence.

01:56:58.372 --> 01:57:03.923
Information only comes from information. The Bible tells us that the things we see, like in the book of Hebrews,

01:57:03.923 --> 01:57:09.931
are made from things that are unseen. An infinite creator God who created the universe,

01:57:09.931 --> 01:57:14.623
created matter, the energy, space, mass, time universe, and created the information for life.

01:57:14.623 --> 01:57:16.164
It's the only thing that makes logical sense.

01:57:17.672 --> 01:57:21.432
Moderator: Alright, Mr. Ham, a new question here. The overwhelming majority of people in the

01:57:21.432 --> 01:57:25.816
scientific community have presented valid, physical evidence, such as carbon dating and fossils,

01:57:25.816 --> 01:57:33.077
to support evolutionary theory. What evidence besides the literal word of the Bible supports creationism?

01:57:34.213 --> 01:57:37.500
Ken Ham: Well, first of all, you know, I often hear people talking about "the majority".

01:57:37.992 --> 01:57:42.206
I would agree that the majority of scientists would believe

01:57:42.206 --> 01:57:45.398
in millions of years and the majority would believe in evolution,

01:57:45.398 --> 01:57:48.847
but there's a large group out there that certainly don't.

01:57:49.154 --> 01:57:57.217
But, first thing I want to say is, it's not the majority that's the judge of truth.

01:57:57.217 --> 01:58:01.169
There have been many times in the past when the majority have got it wrong.

01:58:01.169 --> 01:58:04.404
The majority of doctors in England once thought after you cut up bodies,

01:58:04.404 --> 01:58:06.470
you could go and deliver babies and wondered why

01:58:06.470 --> 01:58:08.020
the death rate was high in hospitals,

01:58:08.020 --> 01:58:13.286
till they found out about diseases caused by bacteria and so on.

01:58:13.286 --> 01:58:17.517
The majority once thought the appendix was a leftover organ

01:58:17.517 --> 01:58:20.662
from evolutionary ancestry, so, you know, when it's okay,

01:58:20.662 --> 01:58:23.757
rip it out. When it's diseased, rip it out. Rip it out anyway.

01:58:24.634 --> 01:58:28.358
But these days we know that it's for the immune system

01:58:28.358 --> 01:58:29.523
and it's very, very important.

01:58:29.523 --> 01:58:33.617
So, you know, it's important to understand that just because

01:58:33.617 --> 01:58:36.873
the majority believe something doesn't mean that it's true.

01:58:37.150 --> 01:58:39.778
And then, I'm sorry, I missed the last part of the question there.

01:58:40.947 --> 01:58:43.698
Moderator: What was the--let me make sure I have the right question here--

01:58:44.468 --> 01:58:47.180
So what evidence besides the literal word of the bible--

01:58:47.518 --> 01:58:51.004
Ken Ham: Okay, one of the things I was doing was making predictions.


01:58:51.004 --> 01:58:53.300
I made some predictions. There's a whole list of predictions.

01:58:53.577 --> 01:58:56.673
And I was saying, if the Bible's right and we're all descendants

01:58:56.673 --> 01:58:59.457
of Adam and Eve, there's one race. And I went through and talked about that.

01:59:00.180 --> 01:59:02.537
If the Bible's right and God made kinds, I went through

01:59:02.537 --> 01:59:06.597
and talked about that. And, so, really that question comes down

01:59:06.597 --> 01:59:09.572
to the fact that we're again dealing with the fact that there's aspects

01:59:09.572 --> 01:59:12.259
about the past that you can't scientifically prove because

01:59:12.259 --> 01:59:14.645
you weren't there, but observational science in the present.

01:59:14.753 --> 01:59:18.246
Bill and I all have the same observational science. We're here in the present.

01:59:18.246 --> 01:59:21.714
We can see radioactivity, but when it comes to then talking about the past,

01:59:21.714 --> 01:59:23.896
you're not going to be scientifically able to prove that.

01:59:23.896 --> 01:59:28.340
And that's what we need to admit. We can be great scientists in the present,

01:59:28.340 --> 01:59:32.774
as the examples I gave you of Dr. Damadian or Dr. Stuart Burgess

01:59:32.774 --> 01:59:36.567
or Dr. Fabich and we can be investigating the present.

01:59:36.890 --> 01:59:38.800
Understanding the past is a whole different matter.

01:59:39.292 --> 01:59:40.592
Moderator: Mr. Nye, one minute response.

01:59:41.299 --> 01:59:45.824
Thank you, Mr. Ham. I have to disabuse you of a fundamental idea.

01:59:46.486 --> 01:59:51.819
If a scientist, if anybody, makes a discovery that changes

01:59:52.065 --> 01:59:56.413
the way people view natural law, scientists embrace him or her!

01:59:57.075 --> 02:00:01.069
This person's fantastic. Louis Pasteur--you made reference to germs.

02:00:01.069 --> 02:00:07.053
Now, if you find something that changes, that disagrees with common thought,

02:00:07.053 --> 02:00:08.939
that's the greatest thing going in science.

02:00:08.939 --> 02:00:12.095
We look forward to that change. We challenge you--

02:00:12.095 --> 02:00:15.003
tell us why the universe is accelerating.

02:00:15.003 --> 02:00:18.245
Tell us why these mothers were getting sick.

02:00:18.245 --> 02:00:24.724
And we found an explanation for it. And the idea that the majority

02:00:25.170 --> 02:00:28.283
has sway in science is true only up a point.

02:00:28.283 --> 02:00:30.511
And then, the other thing I just want to point out, what you may

02:00:30.511 --> 02:00:34.459
have missed in evolutionary explanations of life

02:00:34.459 --> 02:00:37.515
is it's the mechanism by which we add complexity.

02:00:37.868 --> 02:00:40.663
The earth is getting energy from the sun all the time.

02:00:40.863 --> 02:00:44.871
And that energy is used to make lifeforms somewhat more complex.

02:00:44.871 --> 02:00:45.627
Moderator: And that's time.

02:00:46.519 --> 02:00:47.572
New question for you, Mr. Nye.

02:00:48.156 --> 02:00:51.121
How did consciousness come from matter?

02:00:51.829 --> 02:00:55.064
Bill Nye: Don't know. This is a great mystery.

02:00:55.895 --> 02:01:02.537
A dear friend of mine is a neurologist. She studies the nature of consciousness.

02:01:03.137 --> 02:01:09.724
Now I will say I used to embrace a joke about dogs.

02:01:10.016 --> 02:01:11.464
I love dogs. I mean, who doesn't?

02:01:12.249 --> 02:01:15.080
And you can say, this guy remarked,

02:01:15.080 --> 02:01:19.933
"I've never seen a dog paralyzed by self-doubt." Actually, I have.

02:01:20.886 --> 02:01:27.672
Furthermore, the thing that we celebrate, there are three sundials

02:01:27.672 --> 02:01:30.498
on the planet Mars that bare an inscription to the future:

02:01:30.975 --> 02:01:35.108
"To those who visit here, we wish you a safe journey and the joy of discovery."

02:01:35.108 --> 02:01:38.211
It's inherently optimistic about the future of humankind,

02:01:38.211 --> 02:01:41.945
that we will one day walk on Mars. But the joy of discovery...

02:01:42.606 --> 02:01:46.566
that's what drives us. The joy of finding out what's going on.

02:01:46.566 --> 02:01:50.071
So we don't know where consciousness comes from. But we want to find out.

02:01:50.071 --> 02:01:54.388
Furthermore, I'll tell you it's deep within us. I claim that I

02:01:54.388 --> 02:01:57.696
have spent time with dogs that have had the joy of discovery!

02:01:58.311 --> 02:02:03.094
It's way inside us! We have one ancestor, as near as we can figure.

02:02:03.094 --> 02:02:08.005
And, by the way, if you can find what we in science call "a second genesis",

02:02:08.343 --> 02:02:11.684
this is to say, "Did life start another way on the earth?"

02:02:11.991 --> 02:02:14.976
There are researchers at Astrobiology Institute,

02:02:14.976 --> 02:02:17.441
researchers supported by NASA, your tax dollars,

02:02:17.764 --> 02:02:19.898
that are looking for answers to that very question.

02:02:19.898 --> 02:02:21.636
Is it possible that life could start another way?

02:02:22.375 --> 02:02:26.025
Is there some sort of life form akin to science fiction

02:02:26.025 --> 02:02:29.882
that's crystal instead of membranous. This would be a fantastic

02:02:29.882 --> 02:02:31.861
discovery that would change the world!

02:02:32.153 --> 02:02:35.640
The nature of consciousness is a mystery.

02:02:35.640 --> 02:02:39.595
I challenge the young people here to investigate that very question.

02:02:40.148 --> 02:02:43.820
And I remind you--taxpayers and voters that might be watching--

02:02:44.528 --> 02:02:46.914
if we do not embrace the process of science,

02:02:46.914 --> 02:02:50.647
and I mean in the mainstream, we will fall behind economically.

02:02:50.647 --> 02:02:52.986
This is a point I can't say enough.

02:02:52.986 --> 02:02:55.775
Moderator: Mr. Ham, a one minute response.

02:02:55.775 --> 02:03:00.088
Ken Ham: Bill, I do want to say that there is a book out there... (audience laughs)

02:03:00.088 --> 02:03:04.118
that does document where consciousness came from.

02:03:04.118 --> 02:03:08.830
And in that book, the one who created us said that he made man in His image,

02:03:08.830 --> 02:03:13.173
and He breathed into man, and he became a living being.

02:03:13.173 --> 02:03:18.896
And so, the Bible does document that. That's where consciousness came from,

02:03:18.896 --> 02:03:22.679
that God gave it to us. And, you know, the other thing I want to say is,

02:03:22.679 --> 02:03:28.222
I'm sorta of a little, I have a mystery. That is, you talk about the joy of discovery

02:03:28.222 --> 02:03:31.032
but you also say that when you die, it's over, and that's the end of you.

02:03:31.032 --> 02:03:37.404
And if when you die, it's over, and you don't even remember you were here, what's the point of the joy of discovery anyway?

02:03:37.457 --> 02:03:42.621
I mean, in an ultimate sense? I mean, you know, you won't ever know you were ever here,

02:03:42.621 --> 02:03:47.406
and no one who knew you will know they were ever here, ultimately, so what's the point anyway?

02:03:47.406 --> 02:03:51.929
I love the joy of discovery because this is God's creation,

02:03:51.929 --> 02:03:57.032
and I'm finding more out about that to take dominion for man's good and for God's glory.

02:03:57.032 --> 02:04:00.557
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham, a new question.

02:04:00.557 --> 02:04:06.894
This is a simple question, I suppose, but one that actually is fairly profound for all of us, in our lives.

02:04:06.894 --> 02:04:11.122
What, if anything, would ever change your mind?

02:04:11.122 --> 02:04:19.214
Ken Ham: Hmm. Well, the answer to that question is,

02:04:19.214 --> 02:04:27.485
I'm a Christian, and as a Christian, I can't prove it to you,

02:04:27.485 --> 02:04:32.528
but God has definitely, shown me very clearly

02:04:32.528 --> 02:04:39.162
through His Word, and shown Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.

02:04:39.162 --> 02:04:43.749
The Bible is the Word of God. I admit that that's where I start from.

02:04:43.749 --> 02:04:46.695
I can challenge people that you can go and test that.

02:04:46.695 --> 02:04:50.271
You can make predictions based on that. You can check the prophecies in the Bible.

02:04:50.271 --> 02:04:55.217
You can check the statements in Genesis. You can check that.

02:04:55.217 --> 02:04:59.724
I did a little bit of that tonight. And I can't ultimately prove that to you.

02:04:59.724 --> 02:05:05.675
All I can do is to say to someone, "Look, if the Bible really is what it claims to be,

02:05:05.675 --> 02:05:09.310
if it really is the Word of God, and that's what it claims, then check it out."

02:05:09.310 --> 02:05:13.402
And the Bible says, "If you come to God believing that He is, He'll reveal Himself to you."

02:05:13.402 --> 02:05:16.754
And you will know. As Christians, we can say we know.

02:05:16.754 --> 02:05:22.462
And so, as far as the Word of God is concerned, no, no one's ever going to convince me

02:05:22.462 --> 02:05:29.030
that the Word of God is not true. But I do want to make a distinction here.

02:05:29.030 --> 02:05:33.182
And for Bill's sake. We build models based upon the Bible.

02:05:33.182 --> 02:05:36.366
And those models are always subject to change.

02:05:36.411 --> 02:05:39.122
The fact of Noah's flood is not subject to change.

02:05:39.122 --> 02:05:42.370
The model of how the flood occurred is subject to change

02:05:42.370 --> 02:05:45.315
because we observe in the current world,

02:05:45.315 --> 02:05:49.766
and we're able to come up with different ways this could have happened or that could have happened.

02:05:49.766 --> 02:05:54.127
And that's part of that scientific discovery. That's part of what it's all about.

02:05:54.127 --> 02:05:59.048
So, the bottom line is that as a Christian, I have a foundation.

02:05:59.048 --> 02:06:03.847
That as a Christian, I would ask Bill a question. What would change your mind?

02:06:03.847 --> 02:06:08.584
I mean, you said, even if you came to faith, you'd never give up believing in billions of years.

02:06:08.584 --> 02:06:13.340
I think I quoted you correctly. You said something like that recently.

02:06:13.340 --> 02:06:15.670
So that would be also my question to Bill.

02:06:15.670 --> 02:06:17.833
Moderator: Time. Mr. Nye?

02:06:17.833 --> 02:06:20.349
Bill Nye: We would just need one piece of evidence.

02:06:20.349 --> 02:06:22.483
We would need the fossil that swam from one layer to another.

02:06:22.483 --> 02:06:25.952
We would need evidence that the universe is not expanding.

02:06:25.952 --> 02:06:29.233
We would need evidence that the stars appear to be far away, but in fact, they're not.

02:06:29.233 --> 02:06:34.586
We would need evidence that rock layers can somehow form

02:06:34.586 --> 02:06:36.607
in just 4,000 years instead of the extraordinary amount.

02:06:36.607 --> 02:06:43.645
We would need evidence that somehow you can reset atomic clocks and keep neutrons from becoming protons.

02:06:43.645 --> 02:06:48.721
You bring on any of those things and you would change me immediately.

02:06:48.721 --> 02:06:51.914
The question I have for you though, fundamentally,

02:06:51.914 --> 02:06:56.605
and for everybody watching. Mr. Ham, what can you prove?

02:06:56.605 --> 02:07:00.435
What you have done tonight is spent most of the, all of the time

02:07:00.443 --> 02:07:05.986
coming up with explanations about the past. What can you really predict?

02:07:06.002 --> 02:07:09.216
What can you really prove in a conventional scientific,

02:07:09.216 --> 02:07:14.584
or a conventional, "I have an idea that makes a prediction and it comes out the way I see it?"

02:07:14.584 --> 02:07:17.099
This is very troubling to me.

02:07:17.130 --> 02:07:21.636
Moderator: Mr. Nye, a new question. Outside of radiometric methods,

02:07:21.636 --> 02:07:26.680
what scientific evidence supports your view of the age of the Earth?

02:07:26.680 --> 02:07:31.970
Bill Nye: The age of the earth.. Well, the age of stars.

02:07:31.970 --> 02:07:37.749
The... let's see... radiometric evidence is pretty compelling.

02:07:37.749 --> 02:07:45.886
Also, the deposition rates. It was, it was, Lillel, a geologist,

02:07:45.886 --> 02:07:51.997
who realized, my recollection, he came up with the first use of the term "deep time,"

02:07:51.997 --> 02:07:57.672
when people realized that the Earth had to be much, much older.

02:07:57.672 --> 02:08:04.838
In a related story, there was a mystery as to how the Earth could be old enough to allow evolution to have taken place.

02:08:04.838 --> 02:08:08.506
How could the Earth possibly be three billion years old?

02:08:08.506 --> 02:08:12.397
Lord Kelvin did a calculation, if the sun were made of coal, and burning,

02:08:12.412 --> 02:08:15.842
it couldn't be more than 100,000 or so years old.

02:08:15.842 --> 02:08:23.117
But radioactivity was discovered. Radioactivity is why the Earth is still as warm as it is.

02:08:23.117 --> 02:08:29.469
It's why the Earth has been able to sustain its internal heat all these millenia.

02:08:29.469 --> 02:08:33.729
And this discovery, it's something like, this question, without radiometric dating,

02:08:33.729 --> 02:08:35.981
how would you view the age of the Earth,

02:08:35.981 --> 02:08:43.164
to me, it's akin to the expression, "Well, if things were any other way, things would be different."

02:08:43.179 --> 02:08:52.015
This is to say, that's not how the world is. Radiometric dating DOES exist. Neutrons DO become protons.

02:08:52.015 --> 02:08:55.576
And that's our level of understanding today. The universe is accelerating.

02:08:55.576 --> 02:09:02.864
These are all provable facts. That there was a flood 4.000 years ago, is not provable.

02:09:02.864 --> 02:09:08.901
In fact, the evidence for me, at least, as a reasonable man, is overwhelming that it couldn't possibly have happened.

02:09:08.901 --> 02:09:18.833
There's no evidence for it. Furthermore, Mr. Ham, you never quite addressed this issue of the skulls.

02:09:18.833 --> 02:09:27.985
There are many, many steps in what appears to be the creation, or the coming into being of you and me.

02:09:27.985 --> 02:09:31.776
And those steps, are consistent with evolutionary theory.

02:09:31.776 --> 02:09:34.651
Moderator: And that is time. Mr. Ham, your response.

02:09:34.651 --> 02:09:37.642
Ken Ham: By the way, I just want people to understand, too,

02:09:37.642 --> 02:09:40.717
in regard to the age of the Earth being about four and a half billion years,

02:09:40.717 --> 02:09:44.638
no Earth rock was dated to get that date. They dated meteorites,

02:09:44.638 --> 02:09:47.513
and because they assumed meteorites were the same age as the Earth,

02:09:47.513 --> 02:09:51.153
leftover from the formation of the solar system, that's where that comes from.

02:09:51.153 --> 02:09:54.675
People think they dated rocks on the Earth to get the four and a half billion years. That's just not true.

02:09:54.675 --> 02:09:58.605
And the other point that I was making, and I just put this slide back up,

02:09:58.605 --> 02:10:01.021
cause I happened to just have it here. And that is,

02:10:01.037 --> 02:10:05.066
I said at the end of my first rebuttal time, that there are hundreds of physical processes

02:10:05.066 --> 02:10:07.572
that set limits on the age of the Earth. Here's the point.

02:10:07.610 --> 02:10:13.024
Every dating method involves a change with time. And there are hundreds of them.

02:10:13.024 --> 02:10:17.999
And, if you assume what was there to start with, and you assume something about the rate,

02:10:17.999 --> 02:10:22.621
and you know about the rate, you make lots of those assumptions. Every dating method has those assumptions.

02:10:22.652 --> 02:10:25.936
Most of the dating methods, 90% of them, contradict the billions of years.

02:10:25.936 --> 02:10:35.866
There's no absolute age dating method from scientific method because you can't prove scientifically, young or old.

02:10:35.866 --> 02:10:39.158
Moderator: And, here is a new question.