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Oh, hi kids! I have an incredible message for you.

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Hey, can someone take Germa back to the petting zoo?

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Wow! That looks like fun.

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Now, where was I? Oh, yes.

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In 2014, kids 12 and under come free.

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Hey! Shouldn't the comets be in the Planetarium?

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For the entire year, kids 12 and under come free.

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Hey, T-Rex! You'd better get back to the dinosaur den.

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As you can see, it's a very exciting place.

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Now tell your parents!

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Kids 12 and under free in 2014 when accompanied by a paying adult.

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We hope to see you soon!

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Good evening. I'm pleased to welcome you to Legacy Hall

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of the Creation Museum in Northern Kentucky

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in the metropolitan area of Cincinnati.

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I'm Tom Foreman from CNN and I'm pleased to be tonight's

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moderator for this Evolution versus Creation debate.

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This is a very old question! Where did we come from?

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My answer is from Washington this morning by airplane.

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(laughter from audience)

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But there is a much more profound, longer answer

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that people have sought after for a long time.

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So tonight's question to be debated is the following:

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Is Creation a viable model of origins in today's modern, scientific era?

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Our welcome extends to hundreds of thousands of people

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who are watching on the internet at debatelive.org.

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We're glad you have joined us.

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Of course, your auditorium here,

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all of the folks who've joined us as well.

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We're joined by 70 media representatives from many

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of the world's great news organizations.

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We're glad to have them here as well.

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And now let's welcome our debaters: Mr. Bill Nye and Mr. Ken Ham.

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(audience applauds)

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We had a coin toss earlier to determine

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who would go first of these two men.

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The only thing missing was Joe Namath in a fur coat.

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But it went very well. Mr. Ham won the coin toss

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and he opted to speak first. But first, let me tell you

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a little bit about both of these gentlemen.

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Mr. Nye's website describes him as a scientist,

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engineer, comedian, author, and inventor.

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Mr Nye, as you may know, produced a number of award-winning TV shows,

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including a program he became so well-known for:

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Bill Nye the Science Guy.

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While working on the Science Guy show, Mr. Nye won

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seven national Emmy awards for writing, performing,

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and producing the show. Won 18 Emmys in five years!

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In between creating the shows, he wrote five kids books about science,

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including his latest title, <i>Bill Nye's Great Big Book of Tiny Germs</i>.

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Billy Nye is the host of three television series:

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his program, "The 100 Greatest Discoveries"--

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it airs on the Science Channel. "The Eyes of Nye"--

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airs on PBS stations across the country. He frequenly appears

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on interview programs to discuss a variety of science topics.

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Mr. Nye serves as Executive Director of the Planetary Society,

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the world's largest space interest group.

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He is a graduate of Cornell, with a Bachelors

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of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering.

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Mr. Ken Ham is the president and co-founder of Answers in Genesis,

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a bible-defending organization that upholds the authority

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of the scriptures from the very first verse.

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Mr. Ham is the man behind the popular, high-tech

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Creation Museum, where we're holding this debate.

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The museum has had 2 million visitors in six years

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and has attracted much of the world's media.

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The Answers in Genesis website, as well, trafficked

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with 2 million visitors alone last month. Mr. Ham is also

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a best-selling author, a much in-demand speaker,

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and the host of a daily radio feature carried on 700 plus stations.

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This is his second public debate on Evolution and Creation.

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The first was at Harvard, in the 1990s.

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Mr. Ham is a native of Australia. He earned

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a Bachelors degree in Applied Science, with an emphasis in

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Environmental Biology, from the Queensland's Institute of Technology,

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as well as a Diploma of Education at the University

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of Queensland in Brisbon, Australia.

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And now...Mr. Ham, you opted to go first, so you will

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be first with your five minute opening statement.

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Well, good evening. I know that not everyone watching

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this debate will necessarily agree with what I have to say,

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but I'm an Aussie and live over here in America

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and they tell me I have an accent and so it doesn't matter

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what I say, some people tell me. We just like to hear you saying it. (laughter)

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So...um...I hope you enjoy me saying it anyway.

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Well, the debate topic is this: Is Creation

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a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era?

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You know, when this was first announced on the internet,

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there were lots of statements-- like this one

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from the Richard Dawkins Foundation.

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"Scientists should not debate Creationists. Period."

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And this one from one of the Discovery.com websites.

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"Should Scientists Debate Creationists?"

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You know, right here I believe there's a gross misrepresentation

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in our culture. We're seeing people being indoctrinated

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to believe that Creationists can't be Scientists.

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I believe it's all a part of secularists hi-jacking the word "Science".

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I want you to meet a modern-day scientist who's a Biblical Creationist.

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My name is Stuart Burgess.

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I'm a professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in the U.K.

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I have published over 130 scientific papers on

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the science of design in Engineering and Biological systems.

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From my research work, I have found that the scientific evidence

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fully supports Creationism as the best explanation to origins.

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I've also designed major parts of spacecrafts,

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launched by ESA and NASA.

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So here's a biblical Creationist,

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who's a scientist, who's also an inventor.

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And I want young people to understand that.

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You know, the problem, I believe, is this: we need to define terms correctly.

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We need to define Creation/Evolution in regard to origins

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and we need to define science. And in this opening statement,

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I want to concentrate on dealing with the word "science".

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I believe the word "science" has been hijacked by secularists.

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Now, what is science?

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Well, the origin of the word comes from the Classical Latin "scientia",

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which means "to know". And if you look up a dictionary,

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it'll say science means "the state of knowing, knowledge".

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But there's different types of knowledge and I believe

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this is where the confusion lies.

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There's experimental or observational sciences, as we call it.

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That's using the scientific method, observation,

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measurement, experiment, testing. That's what produces

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our technology, computers, spacecraft, jet planes,

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smoke detectors, looking at DNA, antibiotics, medicines and vaccines.

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You see, all scientists, whether Creationists or Evolutionists,

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actually have the same observational or experimental science.

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And it doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist,

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you can be a great scientist.

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For instance, here's an atheist, who is a great scientist--

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Craig Venter, one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome.

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Or Dr. Raymond Damadian. He is a man who invented

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the MRI scan and revolutionized medicine. He's a biblical Creationist.

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But I want us to also understand molecules-to-man

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evolution belief has nothing to do with developing technology.

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You see, when we're talking about origins, we're talking about the past.

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We're talking about our origins. We weren't there.

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You can't observe that, whether it's molecules-to-man evolution,

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or whether it's a creation account.

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I mean, you're talking about the past.

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We'd like to call that Origins or Historical Science,

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knowledge concerning the past. Here at the Creation Museum,

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we make no apology about the fact that our Origins or Historical science

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actually is based upon the biblical account of origins.

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Now, when you research science textbooks being used

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in public schools, what we found is this:

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by and large, the Origins or Historical Science

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is based upon man's ideas about the past--for instance, the ideas of Darwin.

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And our research has found that public school textbooks

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are using the same word "science" for Observational Science

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and Historical Science. They arbitrarily define science

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as naturalism and outlaw the supernatural.

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They present molecules-to-man evolution as fact.

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They are imposing, I believe, the religion

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of naturalism or atheism on generations of students.

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You see, I assert that the word "science" has been hijacked

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by secularists in teaching evolution to force the religion

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of naturalism on generations of kids.

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Secular evolutionists teach that all life developed

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by natural processes from some primordial form.

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That man is just an evolved animal, which has great bearing

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on how we view life and death.

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For instance, as Bill states, "It's very hard to accept,

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for many of us, that when you die, it's over."

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But, you see, the Bible gives a totally different account of origins,

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of who we are, where we came from, the meaning of life, and our future.

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That through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin.

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But that God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son.

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Whoever believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life.

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So is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era?

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I say the creation/evolution debate is a conflict

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between two philosophical worldviews based on two different accounts

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of origins or science beliefs and creation

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is the only viable model of historical science confirmed

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by observational science in today's modern scientific era.

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And that is time. I had the unenviable job of being the time-keeper here.

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So I'm like the referee in football that you don't like,

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but I will periodically, if either one of our debaters

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runs over on anything, I will stop them in the name of keeping it fair for all.

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Uh, Mr. Ham, thank you for your comments. Now it's Mr. Nye's

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turn for a five minute opening statement. Mr. Nye.

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Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

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I very much appreciate you including me in your, uh, facility here.

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Now, looking around the room I think I see just one bow tie.

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Is that right? Just one. And I'm telling you, once you try it--

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oh, there's yes, two! That's great. I started wearing bow ties

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when I was young, in high school.

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My father showed me how. His father showed him.

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And there's a story associated with this, which I find remarkable.

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My grandfather was in the rotary, and he attended

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a convention in Philadelphia, and even in those days,

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at the turn of the last century, people rented tuxedos.

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And the tuxedo came with a bow tie--untied bow tie.

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So he didn't know how to tie it.

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So...wasn't sure what to do, but he just took a chance.

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He went to the hotel room next door, knocked on the door,

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"Excuse me? Can you help me tie my tie?"

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And the guy said, "Sure. Lie down on the bed."

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So...my grandfather wanted to have the tie on,

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wasn't sure what he was getting into, so he's said

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to have lain on the bed and the guy tied a perfect bow tie knot and,

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quite reasonably, my grandfather said,

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"Thank you. Why'd I have to lie down on the bed?"

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The guy said, "I'm an undertaker."

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(audience laughs)

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"It's the only way I know how to do it."

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Now that story was presented to me as a true story.

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It may or may not be. But it gives you something to think about.

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And it's certainly something to remember.

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So, here tonight, we're gonna have two stories

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and we can compare Mr. Ham's story to the story

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from what I will call the outside, from mainstream science.

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The question tonight is: Does Ken Ham's Creation Model hold up?

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Is it "viable"?

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So let me ask you all: what would you be doing if you weren't here tonight?

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That's right, you'd be home watching CSI.

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CSI Petersburg. Is that coming--I think it's coming.

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And on CSI, there is no distinction made between

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historical science and observational science.

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These are constructs unique to Mr. Ham.

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We don't normally have these anywhere in the world except here.

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Natural laws that applied in the past apply now.

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That's why they're natural laws. That's why we embrace them.

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That's how we made all these discoveries

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that enabled all this remarkable technology.

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So CSI is a fictional show, but it's based absolutely

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on real people doing real work.

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When you go to a crime scene and find evidence,

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you have clues about the past. And you trust those clues

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and you embrace them and you move forward to convict somebody.

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Mr. Ham and his followers have this remarkable view

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of a worldwide flood that somehow influenced everything that we observe in nature.

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A 500 foot wooden boat, eight zookeepers for 14,000 individual animals,

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every land plant in the world underwater for a full year?

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I ask us all: is that really reasonable?

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You'll hear a lot about the Grand Canyon, I imagine, also,

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which is a remarkable place and it has fossils.

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And the fossils in the Grand Canyon are found in layers.

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There's not a single place in the Grand Canyon

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where the fossils of one type of animal cross over

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00:25:56,731 --> 00:25:59,196
into the fossils of another. In other words,

242
00:25:59,196 --> 00:26:02,565
when there was a big flood on the earth, you would expect

243
00:26:02,565 --> 00:26:05,833
drowning animals to swim up to a higher level.

244
00:26:05,833 --> 00:26:09,362
Not any one of them did. Not a single one.

245
00:26:09,362 --> 00:26:13,400
If you could find evidence of that, my friends, you could change the world.

246
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,762
Now, I just wanna remind us all:

247
00:26:17,608 --> 00:26:22,045
there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious,

248
00:26:22,045 --> 00:26:27,000
who get enriched, who have a wonderful sense of community from their religion.

249
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,250
They worship together, they eat together, they live

250
00:26:31,250 --> 00:26:34,586
in their communities and enjoy each others company. Billions of people.

251
00:26:34,586 --> 00:26:39,001
But these same people do not embrace the extraordinary view

252
00:26:39,001 --> 00:26:43,667
that the earth is somehow only 6,000 years old. That is unique.

253
00:26:43,667 --> 00:26:48,756
And here's my concern: what keeps the United States ahead,

254
00:26:48,756 --> 00:26:53,251
what makes the United States a world leader, is our technology,

255
00:26:53,251 --> 00:26:58,669
our new ideas, our innovations. If we continue to eschew science,

256
00:26:58,669 --> 00:27:02,587
eschew the process and try to divide science

257
00:27:02,587 --> 00:27:05,800
into observational science and historic science,

258
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,419
we are not gonna move forward. We will not embrace natural laws.

259
00:27:09,419 --> 00:27:14,667
We will not make discoveries. We will not invent and innovate and stay ahead.

260
00:27:14,667 --> 00:27:19,940
So if you ask me if Ken Ham's Creation model is viable, I say no.

261
00:27:19,940 --> 00:27:24,533
It is absolutely not viable. So stay with us over the next period

262
00:27:24,533 --> 00:27:28,337
and you can compare my evidence to his. Thank you all very much.

263
00:27:28,337 --> 00:27:30,385
(audience applauds)

264
00:27:30,385 --> 00:27:31,785
(moderator) All right.

265
00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:35,099
Very nice start by both of our debaters here.

266
00:27:35,099 --> 00:27:37,706
And now each of one will offer a thirty minute,

267
00:27:37,706 --> 00:27:43,904
illustrated presentation to fully offer their case for us to consider.

268
00:27:43,904 --> 00:27:44,924
Mr. Ham, you're up.

269
00:27:57,377 --> 00:28:00,260
Well, the debate topic was "Is creation a viable model

270
00:28:00,260 --> 00:28:02,994
of origins in today's modern scientific era?"

271
00:28:02,994 --> 00:28:06,789
And I made the statement at the end of my opening statement:

272
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:09,456
creation is the only viable model of historical science

273
00:28:09,456 --> 00:28:13,271
confirmed by observational science in today's modern scientific era.

274
00:28:13,271 --> 00:28:16,714
And I said what we need to be doing is actually defining

275
00:28:16,714 --> 00:28:22,133
our terms and, particularly three terms: science, creation, and evolution.

276
00:28:22,133 --> 00:28:25,008
Now, I discussed the meaning of the word "science"

277
00:28:25,008 --> 00:28:28,494
and what is meant by experimental and observational science briefly.

278
00:28:28,494 --> 00:28:30,631
And that both Creationists and Evolutionists

279
00:28:30,631 --> 00:28:35,964
can be great scientists, for instance. I mentioned Craig Venter, a biologist.

280
00:28:35,964 --> 00:28:37,830
He's an atheist and he's a great scientist.

281
00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:41,025
He was one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome.

282
00:28:41,025 --> 00:28:46,531
I also mentioned Dr. Raymond Damadian, who actually invented the MRI scanner.

283
00:28:46,531 --> 00:28:52,140
I want you to meet a biblical creationist who is a scientist and an inventor.

284
00:28:52,140 --> 00:28:54,874
Hi, my name is Dr. Raymond Damadian.

285
00:28:54,874 --> 00:28:58,045
I am a Young Earth Creation Scientist and believe that God

286
00:28:58,045 --> 00:29:01,214
created the world in six 24 hour days,

287
00:29:01,214 --> 00:29:03,833
just as recorded in the book of Genesis.

288
00:29:03,833 --> 00:29:07,547
By God's grace and the devoted prayers of my Godly mother-in-law,

289
00:29:07,547 --> 00:29:11,010
I invented the MRI scanner in 1969.

290
00:29:11,010 --> 00:29:14,463
The idea that scientists who believe the earth

291
00:29:14,463 --> 00:29:19,329
is 6,000 years old cannot do real science is simply wrong.

292
00:29:19,329 --> 00:29:21,194
Well, he's most adamant about that.

293
00:29:21,194 --> 00:29:24,796
And, actually, he revolutionized medicine! He's a biblical Creationist.

294
00:29:24,796 --> 00:29:29,426
And I encourage children to follow people like that, make them their heroes.

295
00:29:29,426 --> 00:29:33,196
Let me introduce you to another biblical Creation Scientist.

296
00:29:33,196 --> 00:29:34,998
My name is Danny Faulkner.

297
00:29:34,998 --> 00:29:38,714
I received my PhD in astronomy from Indiana University.

298
00:29:38,714 --> 00:29:41,604
For 26 and a half years, I was a professor

299
00:29:41,604 --> 00:29:43,792
at the University of South Carolina, Lancaster,

300
00:29:43,792 --> 00:29:47,295
where I hold the rank of distinguished professor emeritus.

301
00:29:47,295 --> 00:29:51,207
Upon my retirement from the university in January of 2013,

302
00:29:51,207 --> 00:29:56,428
I joined the research staff at Answers in Genesis. I'm a stellar astronomer.

303
00:29:56,428 --> 00:30:00,272
That means my primary interests is stars, but I'm particularly

304
00:30:00,272 --> 00:30:02,714
interested in the study of eclipsing binary stars.

305
00:30:02,714 --> 00:30:05,830
And I've published many articles in the astronomy literature,

306
00:30:05,830 --> 00:30:07,497
places such as the the Astrophysical Journal,

307
00:30:07,497 --> 00:30:10,445
the Astronomical Journal, and the Observatory.

308
00:30:10,445 --> 00:30:16,570
There is nothing in observational astronomy that contradicts a recent creation.

309
00:30:16,570 --> 00:30:19,626
I also mentioned Dr. Stuart Burgess,

310
00:30:19,626 --> 00:30:24,299
professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in England.

311
00:30:24,299 --> 00:30:28,882
Now he invented and designed a double-action worm gear set

312
00:30:28,882 --> 00:30:33,129
for the three hinges of the robotic arm on a very expensive satellite.

313
00:30:33,129 --> 00:30:36,294
And if that had not worked, if that gear set had not worked,

314
00:30:36,294 --> 00:30:38,541
that whole satellite would've been useless.

315
00:30:38,541 --> 00:30:43,209
Yet, Dr. Burgess is a biblical Creationist. He believes, just as I believe.

316
00:30:43,209 --> 00:30:45,714
Now, think about this for a moment.

317
00:30:45,714 --> 00:30:47,600
A scientist like Dr. Burgess,

318
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,874
who believe in Creation, just as I do,

319
00:30:49,874 --> 00:30:51,859
a small minority in this scientific world.

320
00:30:51,859 --> 00:30:55,457
But let's see what he says about scientists believing in Creation.

321
00:30:55,457 --> 00:30:58,796
I find that many of my colleagues in academia are sympathetic

322
00:30:58,796 --> 00:31:02,093
to the creationist viewpoint, including biologists.

323
00:31:02,093 --> 00:31:06,208
However, there are often afraid to speak out because of the criticisms

324
00:31:06,208 --> 00:31:09,045
they would get from the media and atheists lobby.

325
00:31:09,045 --> 00:31:11,008
Now, I agree. That's a real problem today.

326
00:31:11,008 --> 00:31:14,464
We need to have freedom to be able to speak on these topics.

327
00:31:14,464 --> 00:31:18,128
You know, I just want to say, by the way, that Creationists,

328
00:31:18,128 --> 00:31:21,574
non-Christian scientists, I should say,

329
00:31:21,574 --> 00:31:23,743
non-Christian scientists are really borrowing

330
00:31:23,743 --> 00:31:26,863
from the Christian worldview anyway to carry out their experimental,

331
00:31:26,863 --> 00:31:30,209
observational science. Think about it. When they're doing

332
00:31:30,209 --> 00:31:32,827
observational science, using the scientific method,

333
00:31:32,827 --> 00:31:34,366
they have to assume the laws of logic,

334
00:31:34,366 --> 00:31:35,830
they have to assume the laws of nature,

335
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:37,997
they have to assume the uniformity of nature.

336
00:31:37,997 --> 00:31:41,107
I mean, think about it. If the universe came about by natural processes,

337
00:31:41,107 --> 00:31:43,915
where'd the laws of logic come from? Did they just pop into existence?

338
00:31:43,915 --> 00:31:46,827
Are we in a stage now where we only have half-logic?

339
00:31:46,827 --> 00:31:49,604
So, you see, I have a question for Bill Nye.

340
00:31:49,604 --> 00:31:52,998
How do you account for the laws of logic and the laws of nature

341
00:31:52,998 --> 00:31:57,039
from a naturalistic worldview that excludes the existence of God?

342
00:31:57,039 --> 00:32:00,829
Now, in my opening statement I also discussed

343
00:32:00,829 --> 00:32:04,628
a different type of science or knowledge, origins or historical science.

344
00:32:04,628 --> 00:32:08,658
See again, there's a confusion here. There's a misunderstanding here.

345
00:32:08,658 --> 00:32:13,180
People, by and large, have not been taught to look at

346
00:32:13,180 --> 00:32:17,507
what you believe about the past as different to what you're observing in the present.

347
00:32:17,507 --> 00:32:20,350
You don't observe the past directly.

348
00:32:20,350 --> 00:32:24,685
Even when you think about the creation account.

349
00:32:24,685 --> 00:32:26,745
I mean, we can't observe God creating.

350
00:32:26,745 --> 00:32:29,561
We can't observe the creation of Adam and Eve. We admit that.

351
00:32:29,561 --> 00:32:32,137
We're willing to admit our beliefs about the past.

352
00:32:32,137 --> 00:32:35,339
But, see, what you see in the present is very different.

353
00:32:35,339 --> 00:32:39,620
Even some public school textbooks actually sort of acknowledge

354
00:32:39,620 --> 00:32:41,960
the difference between historical and observational science.

355
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,556
Here is an Earth Science textbook that's used in public schools.

356
00:32:45,556 --> 00:32:48,599
And we read this. In contrast to physical geology,

357
00:32:48,599 --> 00:32:52,809
the aim of historical geology is to understand Earth's long history.

358
00:32:52,809 --> 00:32:54,310
Then they make this statement.

359
00:32:54,310 --> 00:32:57,094
Historical geology--so we're talking historical science--

360
00:32:57,094 --> 00:33:00,897
tries to establish a timeline of the vast number of physical

361
00:33:00,897 --> 00:33:03,207
and biological changes that have occurred in the past.

362
00:33:03,207 --> 00:33:06,812
We study physical geology before historical geology

363
00:33:06,812 --> 00:33:11,368
because we first must understand how Earth works before we try to unravel its past.

364
00:33:11,368 --> 00:33:14,558
In other words, we observe things in the present and then,

365
00:33:14,558 --> 00:33:18,161
okay, we're assuming that that's always happened in the past

366
00:33:18,161 --> 00:33:20,441
and we're gonna try and figure out how this happened.

367
00:33:20,441 --> 00:33:22,252
See, there is a difference between what you observe

368
00:33:22,252 --> 00:33:26,230
and what happened in the past. Let me illustrate it this way:

369
00:33:27,337 --> 00:33:29,203
If Bill Nye and I went to the Grand Canyon,

370
00:33:29,203 --> 00:33:32,598
we could agree that that's a Coconino sandstone in the Hermit shale.

371
00:33:32,598 --> 00:33:35,156
There's the boundary. They're sitting one on top of the other.

372
00:33:35,156 --> 00:33:38,570
We could agree on that. But you know what we would disagree on?

373
00:33:38,570 --> 00:33:40,777
I mean, we could even analyse the minerals and agree on that.

374
00:33:40,777 --> 00:33:43,602
But we would disagree on how long it took to get there.

375
00:33:43,998 --> 00:33:47,190
But see, none of us saw the sandstone or the shale being laid down.

376
00:33:47,190 --> 00:33:49,499
There's a supposed 10 million year gap there.

377
00:33:49,499 --> 00:33:50,893
But I don't see a gap.

378
00:33:50,893 --> 00:33:53,477
But that might be different to what Bill Nye would see.

379
00:33:53,477 --> 00:33:57,292
But there's a difference between what you actually observe

380
00:33:57,292 --> 00:34:00,320
directly and then your interpretation regarding the past.

381
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,663
When I was at the Goddard Space Center a number of years ago

382
00:34:04,663 --> 00:34:06,688
I met Creationists and Evolutionists who were

383
00:34:06,688 --> 00:34:08,291
both working on the Hubble telescope.

384
00:34:08,291 --> 00:34:10,153
They agreed on how to build the Hubble telescope.

385
00:34:10,153 --> 00:34:13,189
You know what they disagreed on? Well, they disagreed on

386
00:34:13,189 --> 00:34:16,630
how to interpret the data the telescope obtained

387
00:34:16,630 --> 00:34:18,131
in regard to the age of the universe.

388
00:34:18,131 --> 00:34:21,123
And, you know, we could on and talk about lots

389
00:34:21,123 --> 00:34:23,033
of other similar sorts of things. For instance,

390
00:34:23,033 --> 00:34:26,376
I've heard Bill Nye talk about how a smoke detector works,

391
00:34:26,376 --> 00:34:30,667
using the radioactive element Americium. And, you know what?

392
00:34:30,667 --> 00:34:32,879
I totally agree with him on that. We agree how it works.

393
00:34:32,879 --> 00:34:35,691
We agree how radioactivity enables that to work.

394
00:34:35,691 --> 00:34:37,544
But if you're then gonna use radioactive elements

395
00:34:37,544 --> 00:34:39,330
and talk about the age of the Earth,

396
00:34:39,330 --> 00:34:41,131
you've got a problem cause you weren't there.

397
00:34:41,131 --> 00:34:44,530
We gotta understand parent elements, daughter elements and so on.

398
00:34:44,530 --> 00:34:47,423
We could agree whether you're Creationist or Evolutionist

399
00:34:47,423 --> 00:34:50,890
on the technology to put the rover on Mars, but we're gonna

400
00:34:50,890 --> 00:34:54,156
disagree on how to interpret the origin of Mars.

401
00:34:54,156 --> 00:34:55,876
I mean, there are some people that believed it

402
00:34:55,876 --> 00:34:58,891
was even a global flood on Mars, and there's no liquid water on Mars.

403
00:35:01,152 --> 00:35:03,927
We're gonna disagree maybe on our interpretation of origins

404
00:35:03,927 --> 00:35:07,057
and you can't prove either way because, not from

405
00:35:07,057 --> 00:35:10,290
an observational science perspective, because we've only got the present.

406
00:35:11,336 --> 00:35:16,125
Creationists and Evolutionists both work on medicines and vaccines.

407
00:35:16,125 --> 00:35:19,330
You see? It doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist,

408
00:35:19,330 --> 00:35:22,664
all scientists have the same experimental observational science.

409
00:35:22,664 --> 00:35:26,134
So I have a question for Bill Nye: Can you name one piece

410
00:35:26,134 --> 00:35:28,887
of technology that could only have been developed

411
00:35:28,887 --> 00:35:32,356
starting with the belief in molecules-to-man evolution?

412
00:35:33,217 --> 00:35:34,892
Now, here's another important fact.

413
00:35:35,553 --> 00:35:38,762
Creationists and Evolutionists all have the same evidence.

414
00:35:38,762 --> 00:35:42,897
Bill Nye and I have the same Grand Canyon. We don't disagree on that.

415
00:35:42,897 --> 00:35:46,457
We all have the same fish fossils. This is one from the Creation Museum.

416
00:35:46,457 --> 00:35:50,235
The same dinosaur skeleton, the same animals, the same humans,

417
00:35:50,235 --> 00:35:54,456
the same DNA, the same radioactive decay elements that we see.

418
00:35:54,456 --> 00:35:59,092
We have the same universe...actually, we all have the same evidences.

419
00:35:59,784 --> 00:36:01,332
It's not the evidences that are different.

420
00:36:01,332 --> 00:36:06,115
It's a battle over the same evidence in regard to how we interpret the past.

421
00:36:06,115 --> 00:36:07,250
And you know why that is?

422
00:36:07,250 --> 00:36:09,731
Cause it's really a battle over worldviews and starting points.

423
00:36:09,731 --> 00:36:11,922
It's a battle over philosophical worldviews

424
00:36:11,922 --> 00:36:14,721
and starting points, but the same evidence. Now, I admit,

425
00:36:14,721 --> 00:36:17,389
my starting point is that God is the ultimate authority.

426
00:36:17,389 --> 00:36:21,427
But if someone doesn't accept that, then man has to be the ultimate authority.

427
00:36:21,427 --> 00:36:23,762
And that's really the difference when it comes down to it.

428
00:36:23,762 --> 00:36:26,587
You see, I've been emphasizing the difference

429
00:36:26,587 --> 00:36:29,364
between historical origin science, knowledge about

430
00:36:29,364 --> 00:36:30,620
the past when you weren't there,

431
00:36:30,620 --> 00:36:33,133
and we need to understand that we weren't there.

432
00:36:33,133 --> 00:36:36,244
Or experimental observational science, using

433
00:36:36,244 --> 00:36:38,412
your five senses in the present, the scientific method,

434
00:36:38,412 --> 00:36:41,021
what you can directly observe, test, repeat.

435
00:36:42,666 --> 00:36:44,120
There's a big difference between those two.

436
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,727
And that's not what's being taught in our public schools

437
00:36:46,727 --> 00:36:48,566
and that's why kids aren't being taught to think

438
00:36:48,566 --> 00:36:51,600
critically and correctly about the origins issue.

439
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,644
But you know, it's also important to understand,

440
00:36:53,644 --> 00:36:56,692
when talking about Creation and Evolution, both involve

441
00:36:56,692 --> 00:36:59,231
historical science and observational science.

442
00:36:59,231 --> 00:37:02,225
You see, the role of observational science is this:

443
00:37:02,225 --> 00:37:03,816
it can be used to confirm or otherwise

444
00:37:03,816 --> 00:37:07,375
one's historical science based on one's starting point.

445
00:37:07,627 --> 00:37:10,889
Now, when you think about the debate topic and what I have

446
00:37:10,889 --> 00:37:14,296
learned concerning creation, if our origins

447
00:37:14,296 --> 00:37:17,757
or historical science based on the bible, the bible's account

448
00:37:17,757 --> 00:37:21,073
of origins is true, then there should be predictions

449
00:37:21,073 --> 00:37:24,342
from this that we can test, using observational science.

450
00:37:24,342 --> 00:37:26,839
And there are. For instance, based on the bible,

451
00:37:26,839 --> 00:37:29,557
we'd expect to find evidence concerning an intelligence,

452
00:37:29,557 --> 00:37:31,918
confirming an intelligence produced life.

453
00:37:31,918 --> 00:37:35,093
We'd expect to find evidence confirming after their kind.

454
00:37:35,093 --> 00:37:38,056
The bible says God made kinds of animals and plants

455
00:37:38,056 --> 00:37:41,088
after their kind, implying each kind produces it's own,

456
00:37:41,088 --> 00:37:43,304
not that one kind changes into another.

457
00:37:43,304 --> 00:37:47,156
You'd expect to find evidence confirming a global flood of Noah's day.

458
00:37:47,156 --> 00:37:50,891
Evidence confirming one race of humans because we

459
00:37:50,891 --> 00:37:54,500
all go back to Adam and Eve, biologically, that would mean there's one race.

460
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:57,627
Evidence confirming the Tower of Babel, that God gave different languages.

461
00:37:57,627 --> 00:38:00,166
Evidence confirming a young universe.

462
00:38:00,166 --> 00:38:04,095
Now, I can't go through all of those, but a couple of them we'll look at briefly.

463
00:38:04,095 --> 00:38:07,557
After their kind, evidence confirming that--

464
00:38:07,557 --> 00:38:12,969
in the Creation Museum, we have a display featuring replicas,

465
00:38:12,969 --> 00:38:15,593
actually, of Darwin's finches. They're called Darwin's finches.

466
00:38:15,593 --> 00:38:18,260
Darwin collected finches from the Galapagos

467
00:38:18,260 --> 00:38:21,628
and took them back to England and we see the different species,

468
00:38:21,628 --> 00:38:24,494
the different beak sizes here. And, you know,

469
00:38:24,494 --> 00:38:27,187
from the specimens Darwin obtained in the Galapagos,

470
00:38:27,187 --> 00:38:31,180
he actually pondered these things and how do you explain this.

471
00:38:31,180 --> 00:38:36,562
And in his notes, actually, he came up with this diagram here, a tree.

472
00:38:36,562 --> 00:38:42,004
And he actually said, "I think." So he was talking about

473
00:38:42,004 --> 00:38:46,533
different species and maybe those species came from some common ancestor,

474
00:38:46,533 --> 00:38:49,504
but, actually, when it comes to finches, we actually would agree,

475
00:38:49,504 --> 00:38:54,160
as Creationists, that different finch species came from a common ancestor, but a finch.

476
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,382
That's what they would have to come from.

477
00:38:56,382 --> 00:39:00,460
And see, Darwin wasn't just thinking about species.

478
00:39:01,244 --> 00:39:03,490
Darwin had a much bigger picture in mind.

479
00:39:03,490 --> 00:39:07,360
When you look at the Origins of Species and read that book,

480
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,870
you'll find he made this statement: from such low and intermediate form,

481
00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:12,970
both animals and plants may have been developed;

482
00:39:12,970 --> 00:39:16,126
and, if we admit this, we must likewise admit that

483
00:39:16,126 --> 00:39:18,966
all organic beings which have ever lived on this Earth

484
00:39:18,966 --> 00:39:22,037
may be descended from some one primordial form.

485
00:39:22,037 --> 00:39:27,534
So he had in mind what we today know as an evolutionary tree of life,

486
00:39:27,534 --> 00:39:31,323
that all life has arisen from some primordial form.

487
00:39:31,323 --> 00:39:34,992
Now, when you consider the classifications system,

488
00:39:34,992 --> 00:39:37,570
kingdom phylum class or the family genus species,

489
00:39:37,570 --> 00:39:41,690
we would say, as Creationists, we have many creation scientists

490
00:39:41,690 --> 00:39:43,464
that research this and, for lots of reasons,

491
00:39:43,464 --> 00:39:47,057
I would say, the kind in Genesis 1 is really more at

492
00:39:47,057 --> 00:39:50,591
the family level of classification. For instance, there's one dog kind.

493
00:39:50,591 --> 00:39:53,405
There's one cat kind. Even though you have different

494
00:39:53,405 --> 00:39:55,567
generative species, that would mean, by the way,

495
00:39:55,567 --> 00:39:57,891
you didn't need anywhere near the number of animals

496
00:39:57,891 --> 00:39:59,236
on the ark as people think.

497
00:39:59,236 --> 00:40:00,826
You wouldn't need all the species of dogs, just two.

498
00:40:00,826 --> 00:40:02,501
Not all the species of cats--just two.

499
00:40:02,501 --> 00:40:06,788
And, you see, based on the biblical account there in Genesis One,

500
00:40:06,788 --> 00:40:10,257
Creationists have drawn up what they believe is a creation origin.

501
00:40:10,257 --> 00:40:13,130
In other words, they're saying, "Look. There's great variation

502
00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:16,212
in the genetics of dogs and finches and so on."

503
00:40:16,212 --> 00:40:19,436
And so, over time, particularly after Noah's flood,

504
00:40:19,436 --> 00:40:21,502
you'd expect if there were two dogs, for instance,

505
00:40:21,502 --> 00:40:24,671
you could end up with different species of dogs because

506
00:40:24,671 --> 00:40:28,714
there's an incredible amount of variability in the genes of any creature.

507
00:40:28,714 --> 00:40:33,170
And so you'd expect these different species up here, but there's limits.

508
00:40:33,170 --> 00:40:36,270
Dogs will always be dogs, finches will always be finches.

509
00:40:36,270 --> 00:40:41,856
Now, as a Creationist, I maintain that observational science

510
00:40:41,856 --> 00:40:45,714
actually confirms this model, based on the bible.

511
00:40:45,714 --> 00:40:49,236
For instance, take dogs. Okay?

512
00:40:49,236 --> 00:40:53,524
In a scientific paper dated January 2014--that's this year--

513
00:40:53,524 --> 00:40:57,658
scientists working at the University of California stated this:

514
00:40:57,658 --> 00:41:00,544
We provide several lines of evidence supporting

515
00:41:00,544 --> 00:41:04,377
a single origin for dogs, and disfavoring alternative models

516
00:41:04,377 --> 00:41:06,836
in which dog lineages arise separately

517
00:41:06,836 --> 00:41:09,324
from geographically distinct wolf populations.

518
00:41:09,324 --> 00:41:11,546
And they put this diagram in the paper.

519
00:41:11,546 --> 00:41:14,203
By the way, that diagram is very, very similar

520
00:41:14,203 --> 00:41:17,827
to this diagram that Creationists proposed based upon

521
00:41:17,827 --> 00:41:20,715
the creation account in Genesis. In other words,

522
00:41:20,715 --> 00:41:22,934
you have a common dog ancestor that gives rise

523
00:41:22,934 --> 00:41:25,325
to the different species of dogs, and that's exactly

524
00:41:25,325 --> 00:41:28,134
what we're saying here. Now, in the Creation Museum,

525
00:41:28,134 --> 00:41:31,259
we actually show the finches here and you see the finches

526
00:41:31,259 --> 00:41:34,792
with their different beaks, beside dogs skulls, different species of dogs.

527
00:41:34,792 --> 00:41:37,547
By the way, there's more variation in the dog skeleton

528
00:41:37,547 --> 00:41:40,427
here than there are in these finches. Yet, the dogs,

529
00:41:40,427 --> 00:41:42,876
wow, that's never used as an example of evolution,

530
00:41:42,876 --> 00:41:45,789
but the finches are, particularly in the public school textbooks.

531
00:41:45,789 --> 00:41:48,963
Students are taught, "Ah! See the changes that are occurring here?"

532
00:41:48,963 --> 00:41:51,093
And here's another problem that we've got.

533
00:41:51,093 --> 00:41:55,624
Not only has the word "science" been hijacked by secularists,

534
00:41:55,624 --> 00:41:59,791
I believe the word "evolution" has been hijacked by secularists.

535
00:41:59,791 --> 00:42:03,860
The word "evolution" has been hijacked using what I call a bait and switch.

536
00:42:03,860 --> 00:42:05,161
Let me explain to you.

537
00:42:06,130 --> 00:42:09,766
The word "evolution" is being used in public school textbooks,

538
00:42:09,766 --> 00:42:11,826
and we often see it in documentaries and so on,

539
00:42:11,826 --> 00:42:15,265
is used for observable changes that we would agree with,

540
00:42:15,265 --> 00:42:19,244
and then used for unobservable changes, such as molecules-to-man.

541
00:42:19,244 --> 00:42:21,724
Let me explain to you what's really going on because

542
00:42:21,724 --> 00:42:23,410
I was a science teacher in the public schools

543
00:42:23,410 --> 00:42:26,125
and I know what the students were taught and I checked

544
00:42:26,125 --> 00:42:28,134
the public school textbooks anyway to know what they're taught.

545
00:42:28,379 --> 00:42:30,790
See, students are taught today, look, there's all

546
00:42:30,790 --> 00:42:33,595
these different animals, plants, but they're all part

547
00:42:33,595 --> 00:42:37,450
of this great, big tree of life that goes back to some primordial form.

548
00:42:37,450 --> 00:42:39,572
And, look, we see changes. Changes in finches,

549
00:42:39,572 --> 00:42:42,572
changes in dogs and so on. Now, we don't deny the changes.

550
00:42:42,572 --> 00:42:45,566
You see that. You see different species of finches, different species of dogs.

551
00:42:45,566 --> 00:42:48,274
But then they put it all together in this evolutionary tree--

552
00:42:48,274 --> 00:42:50,499
but that's what you don't observe. You don't observe that.

553
00:42:50,499 --> 00:42:54,330
That's belief there. That's the historical science

554
00:42:54,330 --> 00:42:57,994
that I would say is wrong. But, you know, what you do observe,

555
00:42:57,994 --> 00:43:02,607
you do observe different species of dogs, different species of finches,

556
00:43:02,607 --> 00:43:06,708
but then there are limits. You don't see one kind changing into another.

557
00:43:06,708 --> 00:43:12,124
Actually, we're told that if you teach creation

558
00:43:12,124 --> 00:43:14,238
in the public schools as teaching religion,

559
00:43:14,238 --> 00:43:17,099
if you teach evolution as science, I'm gonna say, "Wait a minute!"

560
00:43:17,099 --> 00:43:21,283
Actually, the creation model here, based upon the Bible,

561
00:43:21,283 --> 00:43:24,404
observational science confirms this. This is what you're observe!

562
00:43:24,404 --> 00:43:25,787
You don't observe this tree.

563
00:43:25,787 --> 00:43:29,499
Actually, it's the public school textbooks that are teaching a belief,

564
00:43:29,499 --> 00:43:32,213
imposing it on students, and they need to be teaching them

565
00:43:32,213 --> 00:43:36,124
observational science to understand the reality of what's happening.

566
00:43:36,877 --> 00:43:40,660
Now, what we found is that public school textbooks present

567
00:43:40,660 --> 00:43:44,674
the evolutionary "tree" as science, but reject the creation "orchard" as religion.

568
00:43:44,674 --> 00:43:47,459
But observational science confirms the creation orchard--

569
00:43:47,459 --> 00:43:50,796
so public school textbooks are rejecting observational science

570
00:43:50,796 --> 00:43:53,878
and imposing a naturalistic religion on students.

571
00:43:53,878 --> 00:43:56,938
The word "evolution" has been hijacked using a bait and switch

572
00:43:56,938 --> 00:44:00,403
to indoctrinate students to accept evolutionary belief

573
00:44:00,403 --> 00:44:02,341
as observational science.

574
00:44:02,341 --> 00:44:05,918
Let me introduce you to another scientist, Richard Lenski,

575
00:44:05,918 --> 00:44:08,675
from Michigan State University. He's a great scientist,

576
00:44:08,675 --> 00:44:11,161
he's known for culturing e-coli in the lab...

577
00:44:11,161 --> 00:44:15,431
and he found there was some e-coli that actually seemed

578
00:44:15,431 --> 00:44:22,939
to develop the ability to grow on cistrate on substrate.

579
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:28,241
But Richard Lenski is here, mentioned in this book,

580
00:44:28,241 --> 00:44:30,908
and it's called "Evolution in the Lab".

581
00:44:30,908 --> 00:44:35,500
So the ability to grow on citrate is said to be evolution.

582
00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:39,842
And there are those that say, "Hey! This is against the Creationist."

583
00:44:39,842 --> 00:44:42,895
For instance, Jerry Coin from University of Chicago says,

584
00:44:42,895 --> 00:44:45,587
"Lenski's experiment is also yet another poke in the eye

585
00:44:45,587 --> 00:44:47,228
for anti-evolutionists."

586
00:44:47,228 --> 00:44:50,589
He says, "The thing I like most is it says you can get

587
00:44:50,589 --> 00:44:53,705
these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events."

588
00:44:53,705 --> 00:44:57,167
But is it a poke in the eye for anti-evolutionists?

589
00:44:57,167 --> 00:45:01,371
Is it really seeing complex traits evolving?

590
00:45:01,371 --> 00:45:06,198
What does it mean that some of these bacteria are able to grow on citrate?

591
00:45:06,198 --> 00:45:10,240
Let me introduce you to another biblical Creationist, who is a scientist.

592
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:12,761
Hi, my name's Dr. Andrew Fabich.

593
00:45:12,761 --> 00:45:16,450
I got my PhD from University of Oklahoma in Microbiology.

594
00:45:16,450 --> 00:45:20,075
I teach at Liberty University and I do research on e-coli in the intestine.

595
00:45:20,075 --> 00:45:25,660
I've published it in secular journals from the American Society for Microbiology,

596
00:45:25,660 --> 00:45:30,971
including infection immunity and applied environmental microbiology

597
00:45:30,971 --> 00:45:32,361
as well as several others.

598
00:45:32,361 --> 00:45:35,320
My work has been cited even in the past year in the journals Nature,

599
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,700
Science Translational Medicine, Public Library of Science,

600
00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:41,660
Public Library of Science Genetics. It's cited regularly

601
00:45:41,660 --> 00:45:45,905
in those journals and while I was taught nothing but evolution,

602
00:45:45,905 --> 00:45:48,142
I don't accept that position.

603
00:45:48,142 --> 00:45:50,263
I do my research from a creation perspective.

604
00:45:50,263 --> 00:45:54,365
When I look at the evidence that people cite as e-coli,

605
00:45:54,365 --> 00:46:00,657
supposedly, evolving over 30 years, over 30,000 generations in the lab,

606
00:46:00,657 --> 00:46:04,410
and people say that it is now able to grow on citrate,

607
00:46:04,410 --> 00:46:06,199
I don't deny that it grows on citrate,

608
00:46:06,199 --> 00:46:08,761
but it's not any kind of new information.

609
00:46:08,761 --> 00:46:12,042
The information's already there and it's just a switch

610
00:46:12,042 --> 00:46:15,578
that gets turned on and off and that's what they reported in there.

611
00:46:15,578 --> 00:46:17,238
There's nothing new.

612
00:46:17,238 --> 00:46:20,341
See, students need to be told what's really going on here.

613
00:46:20,341 --> 00:46:24,372
Certainly there's change, but it's not change necessary for molecules-to-man.

614
00:46:24,372 --> 00:46:27,130
Now, we could look at other predictions.

615
00:46:27,130 --> 00:46:29,264
What about evidence confirming one race?

616
00:46:29,264 --> 00:46:32,394
Well, when we look at the human population we see lots of differences.

617
00:46:32,394 --> 00:46:35,298
But based on Darwin's ideas of human evolution,

618
00:46:35,298 --> 00:46:37,629
as presented in The Descent of Man, I mean,

619
00:46:37,629 --> 00:46:39,588
Darwin did teach in The Descent of Man there were

620
00:46:39,588 --> 00:46:41,461
lower races and higher races.

621
00:46:41,461 --> 00:46:44,542
Would you believe, that back in the 1900s, one of the most

622
00:46:44,542 --> 00:46:49,433
popular biology textbooks used in the public schools in America taught this:

623
00:46:49,433 --> 00:46:51,808
At the present time there exists upon Earth

624
00:46:51,808 --> 00:46:55,060
five races or varieties of man...and finally,

625
00:46:55,060 --> 00:46:58,195
the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented

626
00:46:58,195 --> 00:47:01,107
by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.

627
00:47:01,107 --> 00:47:03,098
Can you imagine if that was in the public schools today?

628
00:47:03,098 --> 00:47:06,500
And, yet, that's what was taught, but it was based on

629
00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:11,204
Darwin's ideas that are wrong. You have a wrong foundation.

630
00:47:11,204 --> 00:47:12,558
You're gonna have a wrong worldview.

631
00:47:12,558 --> 00:47:15,765
Now, had they started from the Bible, and from

632
00:47:15,765 --> 00:47:18,251
the creation account in the Bible, what does it teach?

633
00:47:19,153 --> 00:47:21,251
Well, we're all descendants of Adam and Eve.

634
00:47:21,251 --> 00:47:24,152
We go through the Tower of Babel, different languages,

635
00:47:24,152 --> 00:47:26,275
so different people groups formed distinct characteristics.

636
00:47:26,275 --> 00:47:29,217
But we'd expect, we'd say, you know what,

637
00:47:29,217 --> 00:47:31,187
that means there's biologically only one race of humans.

638
00:47:31,187 --> 00:47:33,696
Well, I mentioned Dr. Venter before.

639
00:47:33,696 --> 00:47:36,819
And he was a researcher with the human genome project.

640
00:47:36,819 --> 00:47:39,464
And you'll remember, in the year 2000, this was headline news,

641
00:47:39,464 --> 00:47:42,053
and what we read was this: they had put together

642
00:47:42,053 --> 00:47:44,219
a draft of the entire sequence of the human genome

643
00:47:44,219 --> 00:47:48,356
and unanimously declared, there is only one race - the human race.

644
00:47:48,356 --> 00:47:49,700
Wow! Who would have guessed?

645
00:47:49,700 --> 00:47:52,539
But you see there we have observational science

646
00:47:52,539 --> 00:47:54,709
confirming the Creation account,

647
00:47:54,709 --> 00:47:58,028
not confirming at all Darwin's ideas.

648
00:47:58,444 --> 00:48:00,090
Now, there's much more that can be said

649
00:48:00,090 --> 00:48:01,215
on each of these topics.

650
00:48:01,215 --> 00:48:04,446
Obviously, you can't do that in a short time like this.

651
00:48:04,723 --> 00:48:06,286
And you could do a lot more research.

652
00:48:06,286 --> 00:48:09,372
I suggest you visit our website at Answers in Genesis

653
00:48:09,372 --> 00:48:10,853
for a lot more information.

654
00:48:10,853 --> 00:48:14,658
So, the debate topic: Is creation a viable model

655
00:48:14,658 --> 00:48:16,677
of origins in today's scientific era?

656
00:48:17,169 --> 00:48:19,637
I said, we need to define the terms,

657
00:48:19,637 --> 00:48:21,304
and particularly, the term science

658
00:48:21,304 --> 00:48:23,945
and the term evolution. And I believe we need

659
00:48:23,945 --> 00:48:25,932
to understand how they are being used to impose

660
00:48:25,932 --> 00:48:29,565
an anti-God religion on generations of unsuspecting students.

661
00:48:29,934 --> 00:48:32,082
You see, I keep emphasizing we do need to

662
00:48:32,082 --> 00:48:34,166
understand the difference between experimental or

663
00:48:34,166 --> 00:48:36,943
observational science and historical science.

664
00:48:36,943 --> 00:48:37,909
And you know what?

665
00:48:38,185 --> 00:48:39,991
The secularists don't like me doing this

666
00:48:39,991 --> 00:48:41,523
because they don't want to admit

667
00:48:41,523 --> 00:48:43,687
that there's a belief aspect to what they're saying.

668
00:48:43,687 --> 00:48:45,989
And there is. And they can't get away from it.

669
00:48:46,235 --> 00:48:48,750
Let me illustrate this with a statement from Bill Nye.

670
00:48:49,058 --> 00:48:50,741
"You can show the Earth is not flat.

671
00:48:50,741 --> 00:48:52,942
You can show the Earth is not 10,000 years old."

672
00:48:52,942 --> 00:48:55,574
By the way, I agree. You can show the Earth is not flat.

673
00:48:55,574 --> 00:48:58,638
There's a video from the Galileo spacecraft showing

674
00:48:58,638 --> 00:49:00,688
the Earth, and speeded up of course, but spinning.

675
00:49:00,688 --> 00:49:02,784
You can see it's a sphere. You can observe that.

676
00:49:03,076 --> 00:49:05,227
You can't observe the age of the Earth.

677
00:49:05,519 --> 00:49:08,249
You don't see that. You see again, I emphasize,

678
00:49:08,249 --> 00:49:10,358
there's a big difference between historical science,

679
00:49:10,512 --> 00:49:13,558
talking about the past, and observational science,

680
00:49:13,558 --> 00:49:15,308
talking about the present.

681
00:49:15,738 --> 00:49:18,196
And I believe what's happening is this, that students are being

682
00:49:18,196 --> 00:49:20,384
indoctrinated by the confusion of terms:

683
00:49:20,384 --> 00:49:22,884
the hijacking of the word science and the hijacking

684
00:49:22,884 --> 00:49:25,571
of the word evolution in a bait-and-switch.

685
00:49:26,140 --> 00:49:29,267
Let me illustrate further with this video clip.

686
00:49:29,267 --> 00:49:31,945
Because here I assert that Bill Nye is equating

687
00:49:31,945 --> 00:49:34,561
observational science with historical science.

688
00:49:34,561 --> 00:49:37,697
And I also say it's not a mystery when you understand the difference.

689
00:49:37,697 --> 00:49:41,590
Howie, people with these deeply held religious beliefs,

690
00:49:41,590 --> 00:49:45,293
they embrace that whole literal interpretation

691
00:49:45,293 --> 00:49:49,492
of the Bible as written in English, as a worldview.

692
00:49:49,492 --> 00:49:53,945
And, at the same time, they accept aspirin,

693
00:49:53,945 --> 00:49:58,988
antibiotic drugs, airplanes, but they're able

694
00:49:58,988 --> 00:50:01,496
to hold these two worldviews. And this is a mystery.

695
00:50:01,496 --> 00:50:04,496
Actually, I suggest to you it's not a mystery.

696
00:50:04,496 --> 00:50:06,557
You see, when I'm talking about antibiotics,

697
00:50:06,557 --> 00:50:09,230
aspirin, smoke detectors, jet planes,

698
00:50:09,230 --> 00:50:11,858
that's Ken Ham the Observational Science Bloke.

699
00:50:11,858 --> 00:50:15,403
I'm an Australian. We call guy's "blokes", okay?

700
00:50:15,403 --> 00:50:18,394
But when you're talking about creation and thousands of years

701
00:50:18,394 --> 00:50:19,559
of the age of the Earth,

702
00:50:19,559 --> 00:50:21,238
that's Ken Ham the Historical Science Bloke.

703
00:50:21,238 --> 00:50:22,159
I'm willing to admit that.

704
00:50:22,159 --> 00:50:24,523
Now, when Bill Nye's talking about aspirin,

705
00:50:24,523 --> 00:50:26,519
antibiotics, jet planes, smoke detectors,

706
00:50:26,519 --> 00:50:27,811
he does a great job at that.

707
00:50:27,811 --> 00:50:29,695
I used to enjoy watching him on TV too.

708
00:50:29,695 --> 00:50:32,892
That's Bill Nye the Observational Science Guy.

709
00:50:32,892 --> 00:50:34,858
But when he's talking about evolution and millions of years,

710
00:50:34,858 --> 00:50:39,157
I'm challenging him that that's Bill Nye the Historical Science Guy.

711
00:50:39,157 --> 00:50:42,688
And I challenge the evolutionist to admit the belief

712
00:50:42,688 --> 00:50:46,405
aspects of their particular worldview.

713
00:50:46,405 --> 00:50:49,635
Now, at the Creation Museum, we're only too willing

714
00:50:49,635 --> 00:50:51,469
to admit our beliefs based upon the Bible,

715
00:50:51,469 --> 00:50:53,778
but we also teach people the difference between

716
00:50:53,778 --> 00:50:55,932
beliefs and what one can actually observe

717
00:50:55,932 --> 00:50:57,445
and experiment with in the present.

718
00:50:57,445 --> 00:50:59,613
I believe we're teaching people to think critically

719
00:50:59,613 --> 00:51:03,210
and to think in the right terms about science.

720
00:51:03,210 --> 00:51:05,190
I believe it's the creationists that should be

721
00:51:05,190 --> 00:51:08,438
educating the kids out there because we're teaching

722
00:51:08,438 --> 00:51:11,604
them the right way to think. You know, we admit it.

723
00:51:11,604 --> 00:51:13,856
Our origins of historical science is based upon the Bible,

724
00:51:13,856 --> 00:51:16,157
but I'm just challenging evolutionists to admit

725
00:51:16,157 --> 00:51:17,693
the belief aspects of evolution

726
00:51:17,693 --> 00:51:20,188
and be upfront about the difference here.

727
00:51:20,188 --> 00:51:22,405
As I said, I'm only too willing to admit

728
00:51:22,405 --> 00:51:24,827
my historical science based on the Bible.

729
00:51:24,827 --> 00:51:30,027
And let me further go on to define the term "creation" as we use it.

730
00:51:30,027 --> 00:51:34,137
By creation, we mean, here at Answers in Genesis

731
00:51:34,137 --> 00:51:37,780
and the Creation Museum, we mean the account based on the Bible.

732
00:51:37,780 --> 00:51:41,135
Yes, I take Genesis as literal history, as Jesus did.

733
00:51:41,135 --> 00:51:44,775
And, here at the Creation Museum, we walk people through that history.

734
00:51:44,775 --> 00:51:47,635
We walk them through creation, the perfect creation.

735
00:51:47,635 --> 00:51:51,738
That God made Adam and Eve, land animal kinds, sea-creatures and so on.

736
00:51:51,738 --> 00:51:54,436
And then sin and death entered the world.

737
00:51:54,436 --> 00:51:56,499
There was no death before sin.

738
00:51:56,499 --> 00:52:00,590
That means how can you have billions of dead things before man sinned?

739
00:52:04,834 --> 00:52:06,760
And then, the catastrophe of Noah's flood. If there was a global flood,

740
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:08,918
you'd expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.

741
00:52:08,918 --> 00:52:12,843
Had to say that because a lot of our supporters would want me to.

742
00:52:12,843 --> 00:52:17,925
And what do you find?--Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.

743
00:52:17,925 --> 00:52:22,338
Confusion, the tower of Babel. God gave different languages so you get different people groups.

744
00:52:22,338 --> 00:52:28,222
So this is the geological, astronomical, anthropological, biological history as recorded in the Bible.

745
00:52:28,222 --> 00:52:31,344
So this is concerning what happened in the past that explains the present.

746
00:52:31,344 --> 00:52:36,865
And then, of course, that God's Son stepped into history to be Jesus Christ, the God-Man

747
00:52:36,865 --> 00:52:39,331
to die on the cross, be raised from the dead. And one day there's going to be

748
00:52:39,331 --> 00:52:42,336
a new heavens and a new earth to come. And, you know, not only

749
00:52:42,336 --> 00:52:47,389
is this an understanding of history to explain the

750
00:52:47,389 --> 00:52:50,251
geology, biology, astronomy, and so on to connect the present to the past.

751
00:52:50,251 --> 00:52:53,901
But it's also a foundation for our whole world view.

752
00:52:53,901 --> 00:52:58,233
For instance, in Matthew 19, when Jesus was asked about marriage, he said,

753
00:52:58,233 --> 00:53:02,660
"Have you not read He who made them at the beginning made them male and female?"

754
00:53:02,660 --> 00:53:06,398
And said, "For this cause shall a man leave his mother and father and be joined to his wife. And they'll be one flesh."

755
00:53:06,398 --> 00:53:12,055
He quoted from Genesis as literal history--Genesis 1 and 2. God invented marriage, by the way.

756
00:53:12,055 --> 00:53:15,467
That's where marriage comes from. And it's to be a man and a woman.

757
00:53:15,467 --> 00:53:19,557
And not only marriage. Ultimately, every single Biblical doctrine of theology

758
00:53:19,557 --> 00:53:22,166
directly or indirectly, is founded in Genesis.

759
00:53:22,166 --> 00:53:25,175
Why is there sin in the world? Genesis.

760
00:53:25,175 --> 00:53:26,844
Why is there death? Genesis.

761
00:53:26,844 --> 00:53:28,802
Why do we wear clothes? Genesis.

762
00:53:28,802 --> 00:53:30,563
Why did Jesus die on the cross? Genesis.

763
00:53:30,563 --> 00:53:33,188
It's a very important book. It's foundational to all Christian doctrine.

764
00:53:33,188 --> 00:53:36,505
And you see, when we look at that, what I call the seven C's of History

765
00:53:36,505 --> 00:53:38,458
that we walk people through here at the museum,

766
00:53:38,458 --> 00:53:40,927
think about how it all connects together--a perfect creation.

767
00:53:40,927 --> 00:53:43,135
It'll be perfect again in the future.

768
00:53:43,135 --> 00:53:46,923
Sin and death--end of the world. That's why God's son died on the cross

769
00:53:46,923 --> 00:53:50,003
to conquer death and offer a free gift of salvation.

770
00:53:50,003 --> 00:53:53,900
The flood of Noah's day, a reminder that the flood was a

771
00:53:53,900 --> 00:53:56,177
judgement because of man's wickedness but at the same time

772
00:53:56,177 --> 00:53:58,238
a message of God's grace and salvation.

773
00:53:58,238 --> 00:54:00,918
As Noah and his family had to go through a door to be saved,

774
00:54:00,918 --> 00:54:03,123
so we need to go through a door to be saved.

775
00:54:03,123 --> 00:54:05,867
Jesus Christ said, "I am the door. By me, if any man

776
00:54:05,867 --> 00:54:08,633
enter in, he'll be saved. And we make no apology

777
00:54:08,633 --> 00:54:11,059
about the fact that what we're on about is this:

778
00:54:11,059 --> 00:54:13,465
"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and

779
00:54:13,465 --> 00:54:15,584
believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead,

780
00:54:15,584 --> 00:54:17,925
you'll be saved. Now, as soon as I said that,

781
00:54:17,925 --> 00:54:21,003
see if people say, "See, if you allow creation in schools,

782
00:54:21,003 --> 00:54:23,005
for instance, if you'll ask students to even hear about it,

783
00:54:23,005 --> 00:54:24,668
ah, this is religion."

784
00:54:24,668 --> 00:54:27,170
You know, let me illustrate this,

785
00:54:27,170 --> 00:54:30,458
talking about a recent battle in Texas over textbooks

786
00:54:30,458 --> 00:54:35,468
in the public school. A newspaper report said this:

787
00:54:35,468 --> 00:54:37,760
"Textbook and classroom curriculum battles have long

788
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,233
raged in Texas pitting creationists - those who see

789
00:54:40,233 --> 00:54:42,094
God's hand in the creation of the universe-

790
00:54:42,094 --> 00:54:43,927
against academics..."

791
00:54:43,927 --> 00:54:46,258
Stop right there. Notice creationists... academics.

792
00:54:46,258 --> 00:54:48,557
Creationists can't be academics. Creationists can't be scientists.

793
00:54:48,557 --> 00:54:50,420
See, it's the way things are worded out there.

794
00:54:50,420 --> 00:54:53,365
It's an indoctrination that's going on.

795
00:54:53,365 --> 00:54:55,898
We worry about religious and political ideology

796
00:54:55,898 --> 00:54:58,171
trumping scientific fact. Wait a minute.

797
00:54:58,171 --> 00:54:59,958
What do I mean by science? You're talking about

798
00:54:59,958 --> 00:55:03,365
what you observe, or are you talking about your beliefs about the past?

799
00:55:03,365 --> 00:55:07,522
Now, Kathy Miller is the president of the Texas Freedom Network and

800
00:55:07,522 --> 00:55:14,098
she has vocally spoken out. She's spoken out about this textbook battle there in Texas.

801
00:55:14,098 --> 00:55:21,925
And the mission statement of the organization she's president of says, "The Texas Freedom Network

802
00:55:21,925 --> 00:55:24,818
advances a mainstream agenda of religious freedom and individual liberties

803
00:55:24,818 --> 00:55:28,486
to counter the religious right." Religious freedom... individual liberties. Hmm.

804
00:55:28,486 --> 00:55:34,220
And then she makes this statement: "Science education..." What does she mean by science?

805
00:55:34,220 --> 00:55:37,298
"should be based on mainstream science education, not on personal idealogical beliefs

806
00:55:37,298 --> 00:55:43,435
of unqualified reviewers." Wait a minute. They want religious liberty and not personal

807
00:55:43,435 --> 00:55:48,697
ideological beliefs? I assert this: public school textbooks are using the same word "science"

808
00:55:48,697 --> 00:55:53,345
for observational and historical science. They arbitrarily define science as naturalism

809
00:55:53,345 --> 00:55:57,210
and outlaw the supernatural. They present molecules-to-man evolution as as fact.

810
00:55:57,210 --> 00:56:00,276
And they are imposing the religion of naturalism on generations of students.

811
00:56:00,276 --> 00:56:02,934
They're imposing their ideology on the students

812
00:56:02,934 --> 00:56:04,909
and everything's explained by natural processes.

813
00:56:04,909 --> 00:56:07,422
That is a religion. What do you mean by religious liberty?

814
00:56:07,422 --> 00:56:09,245
They tolerate their religion.

815
00:56:10,260 --> 00:56:12,430
See, the battle is really about authority.

816
00:56:12,430 --> 00:56:15,031
It's more than just science or evolution or creation.

817
00:56:15,031 --> 00:56:18,404
It's about who is the authority in this world, man or God?

818
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,488
If you start with naturalism, then what about morals?

819
00:56:22,488 --> 00:56:24,741
Who decides right and wrong? Well, it's subjective.

820
00:56:24,741 --> 00:56:26,528
Marriage? Well, whatever you want it to be.

821
00:56:27,204 --> 00:56:29,547
Get rid of old people. I mean, why not?

822
00:56:29,547 --> 00:56:31,800
They're just animals, they're costing us a lot of money.

823
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,323
Abortion. Get rid of spare cats, get rid of spare kids. We're all animals.

824
00:56:35,323 --> 00:56:38,166
But if you start from God's word, there are moral absolutes.

825
00:56:38,166 --> 00:56:40,927
God decides right and wrong. Marriage--one man and one woman.

826
00:56:40,927 --> 00:56:44,327
Sanctity of life--we care for old people. They're made in the image of God.

827
00:56:44,327 --> 00:56:47,996
Life begins at fertilization, so abortion is killing a human being.

828
00:56:48,319 --> 00:56:50,539
We do see the collapse of Christian morality

829
00:56:50,539 --> 00:56:53,129
in our culture and increasing moral relativism

830
00:56:53,129 --> 00:56:56,273
because generations of kids are being taught the religion

831
00:56:56,273 --> 00:56:59,147
of naturalism and that the Bible can't be trusted.

832
00:56:59,147 --> 00:57:03,042
And so, again, I say creation is the only viable model

833
00:57:03,042 --> 00:57:05,894
of historical science confirmed by observational science

834
00:57:05,894 --> 00:57:08,159
in today's modern scientific era. You know what?

835
00:57:08,159 --> 00:57:10,820
I'm a science teacher. I want to see kids taught science.

836
00:57:10,820 --> 00:57:14,375
I love science. I want to see more (inaudible) in the world.

837
00:57:14,575 --> 00:57:16,387
You know, if we teach them the whole universe

838
00:57:16,387 --> 00:57:19,340
is a result of natural processes and not designed

839
00:57:19,340 --> 00:57:22,455
by a creative God, they might be looking in the wrong places

840
00:57:22,455 --> 00:57:24,436
or have the wrong idea when they're looking

841
00:57:24,436 --> 00:57:27,817
at the creation in regard to how you develop technology

842
00:57:27,817 --> 00:57:30,809
because if they look at it as just random processes,

843
00:57:30,809 --> 00:57:33,426
that could totally influence the way they think.

844
00:57:33,426 --> 00:57:36,077
If they understand it was a perfect world marred by sin,

845
00:57:36,077 --> 00:57:38,964
that could have a great affect on how they then look

846
00:57:38,964 --> 00:57:42,254
for overcoming diseases and problems in the world.

847
00:57:42,254 --> 00:57:45,590
I want children to be taught the right foundation,

848
00:57:45,590 --> 00:57:48,037
that there's a God who created them, who loves them,

849
00:57:48,037 --> 00:57:52,037
who died on the cross for them and that they're special.

850
00:57:52,037 --> 00:57:53,412
They're made in the image of God.

851
00:57:55,012 --> 00:57:56,289
(moderator) There you go. Thank you, Mr. Ham.

852
00:57:56,289 --> 00:57:58,964
-We can applaud Mr. Ham's presentation.
-(audience applauds)

853
00:58:12,147 --> 00:58:14,205
And, you know, it did occur to me when you had

854
00:58:14,205 --> 00:58:17,043
my old friend Larry King up there, you could've just asked him.

855
00:58:17,566 --> 00:58:20,140
He's been around a long time. And he's a smart guy!

856
00:58:20,140 --> 00:58:25,221
He could probably answer for all of us. Now, let's all be

857
00:58:25,221 --> 00:58:28,422
attentive to Mr. Nye as he gives us his 30 minute presentation.

858
00:58:28,422 --> 00:58:31,647
Thank you very much and, Mr. Ham, I learned something.

859
00:58:31,923 --> 00:58:36,883
Thank you. But let's take it back around to question at hand:

860
00:58:37,590 --> 00:58:41,623
does Ken Ham's creation model hold up? Is it viable?

861
00:58:42,638 --> 00:58:46,280
So, for me, of course...well...take a look.

862
00:58:46,987 --> 00:58:53,264
We're here in Kentucky on layer upon layer upon layer of limestone.

863
00:58:53,540 --> 00:58:56,222
I stopped at the side of the road today and picked up

864
00:58:56,222 --> 00:58:59,944
just a piece of limestone. It has a fossil right there.

865
00:59:00,636 --> 00:59:05,294
Now, in these many, many layers, in this vicinity of Kentucky,

866
00:59:05,294 --> 00:59:10,058
there are coral animal--fossils, Zooxanthella--

867
00:59:10,350 --> 00:59:12,041
and when you look at it closely,

868
00:59:12,041 --> 00:59:14,322
you can see that they lived their entire lives.

869
00:59:14,322 --> 00:59:18,173
They lived typically 20 years, sometimes more than that

870
00:59:18,742 --> 00:59:20,551
when the water conditions are correct.

871
00:59:20,874 --> 00:59:26,050
And so we are standing on millions of layers of ancient life.

872
00:59:27,188 --> 00:59:30,312
How could those animals have lived their entire life,

873
00:59:30,312 --> 00:59:33,644
and formed these layers, in just 4,000 years?

874
00:59:34,167 --> 00:59:38,666
There isn't enough time since Mr. Ham's flood

875
00:59:38,912 --> 00:59:43,522
for this limestone that we're standing on to come into existence.

876
00:59:46,075 --> 00:59:48,835
My scientific colleagues go to places like Greenland,

877
00:59:48,835 --> 00:59:52,505
the Arctic, they go to Antarctica, and they drill

878
00:59:52,505 --> 00:59:57,265
into the ice with hollow drill bits. It's not that extraordinary.

879
00:59:57,265 --> 00:59:59,837
Many of you have probably done it yourselves, drilling other things.

880
00:59:59,837 --> 01:00:02,855
Hole saws to put locks in doors, for example.

881
01:00:03,547 --> 01:00:09,359
And we pull out long cylinders of ice, long ice rods.

882
01:00:09,851 --> 01:00:14,437
And these are made of snow and it's called "snow ice".

883
01:00:14,975 --> 01:00:20,019
And snow ice forms over the winter as snowflakes fall

884
01:00:20,019 --> 01:00:23,130
and are crushed down by subsequent layers. They're crushed together,

885
01:00:23,130 --> 01:00:26,564
entrapping the little bubbles and the little bubbles must

886
01:00:26,564 --> 01:00:30,474
needs be ancient atmosphere. There's nobody running around

887
01:00:30,474 --> 01:00:34,339
with a hypodermic needle, squirting ancient atmosphere into the bubbles.

888
01:00:34,754 --> 01:00:40,859
And we find certain of these cylinders to have 680,000 layers.

889
01:00:40,859 --> 01:00:46,714
680,000 snow/winter/summer cycles.

890
01:00:47,606 --> 01:00:53,752
How could it be that just 4,000 years ago all of this ice formed?

891
01:00:54,028 --> 01:00:56,304
Let's just run some numbers.

892
01:00:57,504 --> 01:01:00,701
This is some scenes from the lovely Antarctic.

893
01:01:01,532 --> 01:01:05,371
Let's say we have 680,000 layers of snow ice

894
01:01:05,555 --> 01:01:08,084
and 4,000 years since the Great Flood.

895
01:01:08,484 --> 01:01:13,668
That would mean we'd need 170 winter-summer cycles

896
01:01:13,668 --> 01:01:16,749
every year, for the last 4,000 years.

897
01:01:16,749 --> 01:01:21,073
I mean, wouldn't someone have noticed that? Wow!

898
01:01:21,073 --> 01:01:23,053
Wouldn't someone have noticed that there's been

899
01:01:23,053 --> 01:01:26,032
winter-summer-winter-summer 170 times one year?

900
01:01:26,770 --> 01:01:33,140
If we go to California, we find enormous stands of bristlecone pines.

901
01:01:33,863 --> 01:01:38,375
Some of them are over 6,000 years old. 6,800 years old.

902
01:01:38,375 --> 01:01:44,998
There's a famous tree in Sweden, Old Tjikko, is 9,550 years old.

903
01:01:45,382 --> 01:01:53,051
How could these trees be there if there was an enormous flood just 4,000 years ago?

904
01:01:53,512 --> 01:01:55,539
You can try this yourself, everybody.

905
01:01:56,123 --> 01:01:58,526
Get, I mean, I don't mean to be mean to trees,

906
01:01:58,526 --> 01:02:02,407
but get a sapling and put it under water for a year.

907
01:02:02,853 --> 01:02:06,735
It will not survive in general. Nor will its seeds.

908
01:02:06,735 --> 01:02:10,620
They just won't make it. So how could these trees

909
01:02:10,620 --> 01:02:14,923
be that old if the Earth is only 4,000 years old?

910
01:02:15,276 --> 01:02:18,300
Now, when we go to the Grand Canyon--which is an astonishing place

911
01:02:18,300 --> 01:02:19,734
and I recommend to everybody in the world to someday visit the Grand Canyon--

912
01:02:19,734 --> 01:02:25,932
you find layer upon layer of ancient rocks.

913
01:02:26,362 --> 01:02:27,695
And if there was this enormous flood that you speak of,

914
01:02:27,695 --> 01:02:35,165
wouldn't there have been churning and bubbling and roiling?

915
01:02:35,549 --> 01:02:36,934
How would these things have settled out?

916
01:02:36,934 --> 01:02:40,834
Your claim that they settled out in an extraordinary short amount of time

917
01:02:40,834 --> 01:02:47,796
is for me, not satisfactory. You can look at these rocks. You can look at rocks that are younger.

918
01:02:47,796 --> 01:02:54,784
You can go to seashores where there's sand. This is what geologists on the outside do,

919
01:02:54,784 --> 01:02:58,865
study the rate at which soil is deposited at the end of rivers and deltas.

920
01:02:58,865 --> 01:03:06,001
And we can see that it takes a long, long time for sediments to turn to stone.

921
01:03:06,001 --> 01:03:11,157
Also, in this picture you can see where one type of sediment has intruded on another type.

922
01:03:11,157 --> 01:03:18,282
Now, if that was uniform, wouldn't we expect it all to be even, without intrusion?

923
01:03:18,282 --> 01:03:23,859
Furthermore, you can find places in the Grand Canyon where you see an ancient riverbed on that side

924
01:03:23,859 --> 01:03:27,567
going to an ancient riverbed on that side and the Colorado River has cut through it.

925
01:03:27,567 --> 01:03:33,782
And by the way, if this great flood drained through the Grand Canyon,

926
01:03:33,782 --> 01:03:37,840
wouldn't there have been a Grand Canyon on every continent?

927
01:03:38,056 --> 01:03:43,516
How could we not have Grand Canyons everywhere if this water drained away in this extraordinary

928
01:03:43,516 --> 01:03:49,450
short amount of time? Four thousand years? Now when you look at these layers carefully,

929
01:03:50,326 --> 01:03:56,702
you find these beautiful fossils. And when I say beautiful, I am inspired by them. They are remarkable

930
01:03:56,702 --> 01:04:03,619
because we are looking at the past. You find down low. You'll find what you might consider

931
01:04:03,619 --> 01:04:08,990
is, uh, rudimentary sea animals. Up above you'll find the famous trilobytes.

932
01:04:09,620 --> 01:04:14,670
Above that you might find some clams, some oysters. And above that you find some mammals.

933
01:04:15,363 --> 01:04:22,694
You never, ever find a higher animal mixed in with a lower one. You never find a lower one

934
01:04:22,694 --> 01:04:28,434
trying to swim its way to a higher one. If it all happened in such an extraordinary short amount of time,

935
01:04:28,434 --> 01:04:33,674
if this water drained away just like that, wouldn't we expect to see some turbulence?

936
01:04:33,674 --> 01:04:41,557
And by the way, anyone here, really, if you can find one example of that, one example of that

937
01:04:41,557 --> 01:04:47,882
anywhere in the world, the scientists of the world challenge you. They would embrace you. You would be a hero.

938
01:04:47,882 --> 01:04:51,593
You would change the world if you could find one example of that anywhere.

939
01:04:52,100 --> 01:04:56,492
People have looked, and looked and looked. They have not found a single one.

940
01:04:58,891 --> 01:05:07,005
Now here's an interesting thing. These are fossil skulls that people have found all around the world.

941
01:05:07,005 --> 01:05:13,330
It's by no means representative of all the fossil skulls that have been found, but these are all over the place.

942
01:05:13,869 --> 01:05:23,778
Now, if you were to look at these, I can assure you, not any of them is a gorilla. Right?

943
01:05:24,993 --> 01:05:33,642
If as Mr. Ham and his associates claim, there was just man and then everybody else, there were just

944
01:05:33,642 --> 01:05:39,737
humans and all other species, where would you put modern humans among these skulls?

945
01:05:40,598 --> 01:05:46,521
How did all these skulls get all over the earth in these extraordinary fashion? Where would you put us?

946
01:05:47,613 --> 01:05:52,309
I can tell you we are on there and I encourage you, when you go home, to look it up.

947
01:05:54,600 --> 01:06:04,770
Now, one of the extraordinary claims associated with Mr. Ham's worldview is that this giant boat

948
01:06:04,770 --> 01:06:11,362
a very large wooden ship, went aground safely on a mountain in the Middle, what we now call the Middle East.

949
01:06:11,947 --> 01:06:20,007
And so places like Australia are populated then by animals who somehow managed to get

950
01:06:20,514 --> 01:06:25,191
from the Middle East all the way to Australia in the last 4,000 years.

951
01:06:26,422 --> 01:06:32,397
Now that, to me, is an extraordinary claim. We would expect then, somewhere between the Middle East

952
01:06:32,397 --> 01:06:37,617
and Australia, we would expect to find evidence of kangaroos. We would expect to find

953
01:06:38,417 --> 01:06:43,336
some fossils, some bones in the last 4,000 years. Somebody would have been hopping along there

954
01:06:43,336 --> 01:06:46,811
and died along the way, and we'd find them. And furthermore, there's a claim

955
01:06:46,811 --> 01:06:52,440
that there was a land bridge that allowed these animals to get from Asia all the way

956
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:58,067
to the continent of Australia. And that land bridge has disappeared, has disappeared in the last

957
01:06:58,067 --> 01:07:05,952
4,000 years. No navigator, no diver, no U.S. Navy submarine, no one has ever detected any evidence

958
01:07:05,952 --> 01:07:11,776
of this, let alone any evidence of fossils of kangaroos. So, your expectation is not met.

959
01:07:12,467 --> 01:07:20,342
It doesn't seem to hold up. So, let's see. If there are 4,000 years since Ken Ham's flood

960
01:07:21,142 --> 01:07:27,445
and let's say, as he said many times, there are 7,000 kinds,

961
01:07:27,921 --> 01:07:35,199
today the very, very lowest estimate is that there are about 8.7 million species.

962
01:07:35,199 --> 01:07:39,677
But a much more reasonable estimate is it's 50 million, or even 100 million,

963
01:07:39,924 --> 01:07:45,276
when you start counting the viruses and the bacteria and all the beetles that must be extant

964
01:07:45,276 --> 01:07:51,712
in the tropical rain forests that we haven't found. So we'll take a number which I think is pretty reasonable,

965
01:07:51,712 --> 01:07:59,919
16 million species today. If these came from 7,000 kinds,

966
01:07:59,919 --> 01:08:03,424
let's say we have 7,000 subtracted from 15 million,

967
01:08:03,424 --> 01:08:09,595
that's 15,993. If 4,000 years, we have 365.25 days a year,

968
01:08:10,425 --> 01:08:15,520
we would expect to find 11 new species every day.

969
01:08:16,166 --> 01:08:22,200
So you'd go out into your yard, you wouldn't just find a different bird, a new bird

970
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:26,589
you'd find a different kind of bird, a whole new species, a bird!

971
01:08:26,696 --> 01:08:31,821
Every day, a new species of fish, a new species of organisms you can't see, and so on.

972
01:08:31,821 --> 01:08:38,366
I mean, this would be enormous news. The last 4,000 years people would have seen these changes among us.

973
01:08:38,950 --> 01:08:43,603
So the Cincinnati Enquirer, I imagine, would carry a column right next to the weather report:

974
01:08:43,603 --> 01:08:50,239
Today's New Species, and it would list these 11 every day, but we see no evidence of that.

975
01:08:50,485 --> 01:08:53,689
There's no evidence of these species. There simply isn't enough time.

976
01:08:54,474 --> 01:08:58,884
Now as you may know, I was graduated from engineering school and I was,

977
01:08:58,884 --> 01:09:07,187
I got a job at Boeing. I worked on 747s. I, okay everybody relax, I was very well supervised.

978
01:09:08,387 --> 01:09:13,163
Everything's fine. There's a tube in the 747 I kind of think of that's my tube.

979
01:09:13,163 --> 01:09:18,028
But that aside, I travelled the highways of Washington state quite a bit.

980
01:09:18,028 --> 01:09:23,268
I was a young guy. I had a motorcycle. I used to go mountain climbing in Washington state... Oregon.

981
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:32,066
And you can drive along and find these enormous boulders on top of the ground, enormous rocks,

982
01:09:32,682 --> 01:09:40,928
huge, sitting on top of the ground. Now, out there, in regular academic pursuits, regular geology,

983
01:09:41,774 --> 01:09:46,491
people have discovered that there was, used to be a lake in what is now Montana

984
01:09:46,937 --> 01:09:50,448
which we charmingly refer to as Lake Missoula.

985
01:09:50,448 --> 01:09:54,590
It's not there now but the evidence for it, of course, if I may, overwhelming.

986
01:09:55,082 --> 01:10:01,048
And so, an ice dam would form at Lake Missoula and once in a while it would break.

987
01:10:01,433 --> 01:10:06,440
It would build up and break. And there were multiple floods in my old state of Washington state.

988
01:10:06,440 --> 01:10:12,582
And, just, before we go on, let me just say, go Seahawks! That was very gratifying, very gratifying for me.

989
01:10:13,690 --> 01:10:20,349
Anyway you drive along the road and there are these rocks. So, if as is asserted here at this facility,

990
01:10:20,918 --> 01:10:25,059
that the heavier rocks would sink to the bottom during a flood event,

991
01:10:25,059 --> 01:10:29,214
the big rocks, and especially their shape, instead of aerodynamic,

992
01:10:29,214 --> 01:10:34,397
the hydrodynamic, the water changing shape, as water flows past,

993
01:10:34,397 --> 01:10:38,944
you'd expect them to sink to the bottom. But here are these enormous rocks right on the surface.

994
01:10:38,944 --> 01:10:42,714
And there's no shortage of them. If you go driving in Washington state or Oregon

995
01:10:42,714 --> 01:10:49,831
they are readily available. So how could those be there if the Earth is just 4,000 years old.

996
01:10:49,831 --> 01:10:53,206
How could they be there if this one flood caused that?

997
01:10:54,191 --> 01:11:01,000
Another remarkable thing I'd like everybody to consider, alone inherent in this worldview,

998
01:11:01,770 --> 01:11:10,570
is that somehow Noah and his family were able to build a wooden ship that would house

999
01:11:11,477 --> 01:11:17,444
14,000 individuals. There were 7,000 kinds and then, there's a boy and a girl for each one of those,

1000
01:11:18,028 --> 01:11:22,536
so there's about 14,000... 8 people. And these people were unskilled.

1001
01:11:23,167 --> 01:11:26,629
As far as anybody knows they had never built a wooden ship before.

1002
01:11:27,460 --> 01:11:31,510
Furthermore, they had to get all these animals on there. And they had to feed them.

1003
01:11:31,510 --> 01:11:37,202
And I understand that Mr. Ham has some explanations for that, which I frankly find extraordinary but

1004
01:11:39,002 --> 01:11:45,627
this is the premise of the bit. And we can then run a test, a scientific test.

1005
01:11:46,411 --> 01:11:51,956
People in the early 1900s built an extraordinary, large wooden ship, the Wyoming.

1006
01:11:51,956 --> 01:11:59,615
It was a six-masted schooner, the largest one ever built. It had a motor on it for winching cables and stuff.

1007
01:12:00,122 --> 01:12:07,352
But this boat had a great difficulty. It was not as big as the Titanic, but it was a very long ship.

1008
01:12:07,829 --> 01:12:15,268
It would twist in the sea. It would twist this way, this way, and this way.

1009
01:12:16,314 --> 01:12:22,590
And in all that twisting, it leaked. It leaked like crazy. The crew could not keep the ship dry.

1010
01:12:22,897 --> 01:12:30,775
And indeed, it eventually foundered and sank, a loss of all 14 hands. So there were 14 crewmen

1011
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:35,491
aboard a ship built by very, very skilled shipwrights in New England.

1012
01:12:35,491 --> 01:12:39,919
These guys were the best in the world at wooden shipbuilding. And they couldn't build

1013
01:12:39,919 --> 01:12:44,431
a boat as big as the Ark is claimed to have been.

1014
01:12:45,123 --> 01:12:51,361
Is that reasonable? Is that possible that the best shipbuilders in the world couldn't do

1015
01:12:51,361 --> 01:12:57,309
what eight unskilled people, men and their wives, were able to do?

1016
01:12:57,939 --> 01:13:06,596
If you visit the National Zoo, in Washington D.C., it's 163 acres. And they have 400 species.

1017
01:13:06,596 --> 01:13:12,055
By the way, this picture that you're seeing was taken by spacecraft in space, orbiting the Earth.

1018
01:13:12,655 --> 01:13:17,614
If you told my grandfather, let alone my father, that we had that capability,

1019
01:13:17,614 --> 01:13:21,569
they would have been amazed. That capability comes from our fundamental understanding

1020
01:13:22,015 --> 01:13:29,187
of gravity, of material science, of physics, and life science, where you go looking.

1021
01:13:29,417 --> 01:13:35,471
This place is often, as any zoo, is often deeply concerned and criticized for how it treats its animals.

1022
01:13:36,317 --> 01:13:44,725
They have 400 species on 163 acres, 66 hectares. Is it reasonable that Noah and his colleagues,

1023
01:13:44,725 --> 01:13:51,199
his family, were able to maintain 14,000 animals and themselves, and feed them, aboard a ship

1024
01:13:51,199 --> 01:13:53,724
that was bigger than anyone's ever been able to build?

1025
01:13:54,832 --> 01:14:02,534
Now, here's the thing, what we want in science, science as practiced on the outside,

1026
01:14:03,380 --> 01:14:11,102
is an ability to predict. We want to have a natural law that is so obvious and clear,

1027
01:14:11,102 --> 01:14:14,618
so well understood that we can make predictions about what will happen.

1028
01:14:15,125 --> 01:14:20,184
We can predict that we can put a spacecraft in orbit and take a picture of Washington D.C.

1029
01:14:20,753 --> 01:14:25,428
We can predict that if we provide this much room for an elephant, it will live healthily

1030
01:14:25,428 --> 01:14:30,454
for a certain amount of time. I'll give you an example.

1031
01:14:32,977 --> 01:14:38,345
In the explanation provided by traditional science, of how we came to be,

1032
01:14:38,898 --> 01:14:44,077
we find as Mr. Ham alluded to many times in his recent remarks,

1033
01:14:44,077 --> 01:14:49,480
we find a sequence of animals in what, generally, is called "the fossil record."

1034
01:14:49,480 --> 01:14:53,203
This would be to say when we look at the layers, that you would find in Kentucky,

1035
01:14:53,203 --> 01:14:58,161
you look at them carefully, you find a sequence of animals, a succession.

1036
01:14:58,791 --> 01:15:01,535
And as one might expect, when you are looking at old records

1037
01:15:01,535 --> 01:15:05,024
there's some pieces seem to be missing, a gap.

1038
01:15:05,947 --> 01:15:08,965
So scientists got to thinking about this.

1039
01:15:09,289 --> 01:15:14,157
There are lungfish that jump from pond to pond in Florida

1040
01:15:14,157 --> 01:15:15,499
and end up in people's swimming pools.

1041
01:15:16,084 --> 01:15:19,514
And there are amphibians, frogs and toads, croaking and carrying on.

1042
01:15:19,944 --> 01:15:25,918
And so people wondered if there wasn't a fossil or an organism,

1043
01:15:25,918 --> 01:15:28,912
an animal, that had lived, that had characteristics of both.

1044
01:15:29,758 --> 01:15:33,070
People over the years had found that in Canada,

1045
01:15:33,762 --> 01:15:36,530
there was clearly a fossil marsh--

1046
01:15:36,683 --> 01:15:39,463
a place that used to be a swamp that had dried out.

1047
01:15:40,293 --> 01:15:44,199
And they found all kinds of happy swamp fossils there:

1048
01:15:44,199 --> 01:15:48,745
ferns, organisms, animals, fish that were recognized.

1049
01:15:49,314 --> 01:15:52,469
And people realized that if this, with the age of the rocks there,

1050
01:15:52,930 --> 01:15:58,396
as computed by traditional scientists, with the age of the rocks there,

1051
01:15:58,396 --> 01:16:01,552
this would be a reasonable place to look for an animal,

1052
01:16:01,890 --> 01:16:07,319
a fossil of an animal that lived there. And, indeed, scientists found it.

1053
01:16:07,749 --> 01:16:10,949
Tiktaalik, this fish-lizard guy.

1054
01:16:11,487 --> 01:16:16,545
And they found several specimens, it wasn't one individual.

1055
01:16:16,545 --> 01:16:19,197
In other words, they made a prediction, that this animal

1056
01:16:19,197 --> 01:16:26,228
would be found and it was found. So far, Mr. Ham and his worldview,

1057
01:16:26,228 --> 01:16:29,893
the Ken Ham creation model, does not have this capability.

1058
01:16:29,893 --> 01:16:33,879
It cannot make predictions and show results.

1059
01:16:34,263 --> 01:16:38,191
Here's an extraordinary one that I find remarkable.

1060
01:16:39,821 --> 01:16:45,677
There are certain fish, the Topminnows, that have

1061
01:16:45,677 --> 01:16:51,023
the remarkable ability to have sex with other fish,

1062
01:16:51,715 --> 01:16:55,897
traditional fish sex, and they can have sex with themselves.

1063
01:16:55,897 --> 01:16:59,500
Now, one of the old questions in life science, everybody,

1064
01:16:59,884 --> 01:17:04,130
one of the old chin strokers is why does any organism,

1065
01:17:04,838 --> 01:17:12,645
whether you're an ash tree, a sea jelly, a squid, a marmot,

1066
01:17:12,645 --> 01:17:17,906
why does anybody have sex? I mean, there are more bacteria

1067
01:17:17,906 --> 01:17:21,426
in your tummy right now then there are humans on Earth.

1068
01:17:21,826 --> 01:17:23,466
And bacteria, they don't bother with that, man.

1069
01:17:23,466 --> 01:17:26,147
They split themselves in half, they get new bacteria!

1070
01:17:26,147 --> 01:17:29,999
Like, let's get her done! Let's go. But why does any--

1071
01:17:29,999 --> 01:17:34,388
think of all the trouble a rose bush goes to make a flower and the thorns

1072
01:17:34,404 --> 01:17:41,065
and the bees flying around, interacting--why does anybody bother with all that?

1073
01:17:41,527 --> 01:17:44,834
And the answer seems to be...your enemies.

1074
01:17:45,634 --> 01:17:51,565
And your enemies are not lions and tigers and bears...oh my!

1075
01:17:51,857 --> 01:17:55,674
No, your enemies are germs and parasites.

1076
01:17:55,674 --> 01:17:59,066
That's what's gonna get you. Germs and parasites.

1077
01:17:59,727 --> 01:18:05,693
My first cousin's son died tragically from essentially the flu.

1078
01:18:05,693 --> 01:18:08,632
This is not some story I heard about. This is my first cousin, once removed.

1079
01:18:08,632 --> 01:18:13,296
Because, apparently, the virus had the right genes to attack his genes.

1080
01:18:13,296 --> 01:18:16,701
So when you have sex you have a new set of genes.

1081
01:18:16,701 --> 01:18:20,451
You have a new mixture. So people studied these Topminnows.

1082
01:18:20,989 --> 01:18:24,695
And they found that the ones who reproduced sexually

1083
01:18:25,310 --> 01:18:29,586
had fewer parasites that the ones who reproduced on their own.

1084
01:18:29,986 --> 01:18:32,410
This Black Spot disease--wait, wait, there's more.

1085
01:18:33,363 --> 01:18:37,949
In these populations, with flooding and so on, when river ponds get isolated,

1086
01:18:37,949 --> 01:18:40,387
then they dry up, then the river flows again.

1087
01:18:41,248 --> 01:18:45,146
In between, some of the fish will have sex with other fish,

1088
01:18:45,146 --> 01:18:49,233
sometimes, and they'll have sex on their own, what's called asexually.

1089
01:18:50,002 --> 01:18:52,873
And those fish, the ones that are in between, sometimes this,

1090
01:18:52,873 --> 01:18:56,829
sometimes that, they have an intermediate number of infections.

1091
01:18:57,659 --> 01:19:02,962
In other words, the explanation provided by evolution made a prediction.

1092
01:19:02,977 --> 01:19:06,524
And the prediction's extraordinary and subtle, but there it is.

1093
01:19:06,524 --> 01:19:08,995
How else would you explain it?

1094
01:19:08,995 --> 01:19:14,498
And to Mr. Ham and his followers I say this is something we in science want.

1095
01:19:14,498 --> 01:19:18,078
We want the ability to predict. And your assertion

1096
01:19:18,078 --> 01:19:21,789
that there's some difference between the natural laws

1097
01:19:21,789 --> 01:19:24,580
that I use to observe the world today and the natural laws

1098
01:19:24,580 --> 01:19:29,867
that existed 4,000 years ago is extraordinary and unsettling.

1099
01:19:31,313 --> 01:19:34,984
I travel around. I have a great many family members

1100
01:19:35,015 --> 01:19:39,660
in Danville, Virginia, one of the U.S's most livable cities.

1101
01:19:39,660 --> 01:19:46,463
It's lovely. And I was driving along and there was a sign in front of a church:

1102
01:19:46,970 --> 01:19:50,107
"Big Bang theory? You got to be kidding me. God."

1103
01:19:51,153 --> 01:19:55,837
Now, everybody, why would someone at the church, a pastor for example,

1104
01:19:56,468 --> 01:20:03,212
put that sign up unless he or she didn't believe

1105
01:20:03,212 --> 01:20:06,761
that the big bang was a real thing? I just want to review,

1106
01:20:06,761 --> 01:20:09,588
briefly, with everybody why we accept,

1107
01:20:09,973 --> 01:20:13,462
in the outside world, why we accept the Big Bang.

1108
01:20:16,285 --> 01:20:22,180
Edwin Hubble, sorry, there you go,you gotta be kidding me God.

1109
01:20:23,579 --> 01:20:28,557
Edwin Hubble was sitting at Mount Wilson, which is up from Pasadena, California.

1110
01:20:28,989 --> 01:20:32,489
On a clear day you can look down and see where the Rose Parade goes.

1111
01:20:32,966 --> 01:20:34,564
It's that close to civilization.

1112
01:20:35,179 --> 01:20:39,978
But even in the early 1900's, the people who selected this site for astronomy

1113
01:20:40,532 --> 01:20:44,923
picked an excellent site. The clouds and smog are below you.

1114
01:20:45,677 --> 01:20:50,910
And Edwin Hubble sat there at this very big telescope night after night studying the heavens.

1115
01:20:51,817 --> 01:20:57,793
And he found that the stars are moving apart. The stars are moving apart.

1116
01:20:58,824 --> 01:21:06,904
And he wasn't sure why. But it was clear that the stars are moving farther and farther apart all the time.

1117
01:21:07,704 --> 01:21:10,658
So people talked about it for a couple decades.

1118
01:21:11,473 --> 01:21:15,521
And then eventually another astronomer, almost a couple decades, another astronomer

1119
01:21:15,521 --> 01:21:19,599
Fred Hoyle just remarked, "Well, it was like there was a big bang.

1120
01:21:20,537 --> 01:21:24,457
There was an explosion. This is to say; since everything's moving apart,

1121
01:21:24,980 --> 01:21:27,744
it's very reasonable that at one time they were all together.

1122
01:21:28,221 --> 01:21:32,216
And there's a place from whence, or rather whence, these things expanded."

1123
01:21:32,863 --> 01:21:34,427
And it was a remarkable insight.

1124
01:21:35,074 --> 01:21:38,502
But people went still questioning it for decades.

1125
01:21:38,502 --> 01:21:43,144
Scientists, conventional scientists, questioning it for decades.

1126
01:21:44,790 --> 01:21:51,342
These two researchers wanted to listen for radio signals from space--radio astronomy.

1127
01:21:51,342 --> 01:21:57,836
And this is while we have visible light for our eyes, there is a whole other bunch of waves of light

1128
01:21:57,836 --> 01:22:01,490
that are much longer. The microwaves in your oven are about that long.

1129
01:22:01,490 --> 01:22:07,735
The radar at the airport is about that long. Your FM radio signals about like this.

1130
01:22:08,659 --> 01:22:13,138
AM radio signals are a kilometer--they're a couple, several soccer fields.

1131
01:22:14,354 --> 01:22:21,442
They went out listening. And there was this hiss, this hisssssss, all the time

1132
01:22:21,442 --> 01:22:25,065
that wouldn't go away. And they thought "Oh! Doggone it. There's some loose

1133
01:22:25,065 --> 01:22:29,624
connector." They plugged in the connector. They rescrewed it. They made it tight.

1134
01:22:30,054 --> 01:22:31,849
They turned it this way. The hiss was still there.

1135
01:22:31,849 --> 01:22:33,334
They turned it that way. It was still there.

1136
01:22:33,627 --> 01:22:38,626
They thought it was pigeon droppings that had affected the reception of this "horn" it's called.

1137
01:22:38,642 --> 01:22:42,323
This thing is still there. It's in Basking Ridge, New Jersey.

1138
01:22:42,323 --> 01:22:49,219
It's a national historic site. And Arno Pinzius and Robert Wilson had found

1139
01:22:49,372 --> 01:22:54,879
this cosmic background sound that was predicted by astronomers.

1140
01:22:55,248 --> 01:22:58,935
Astronomers running the numbers, doing math, predicted

1141
01:22:58,935 --> 01:23:02,399
that in the cosmos would be left over this echo,

1142
01:23:02,399 --> 01:23:06,105
this energy, from the Big Bang that would be detectable.

1143
01:23:06,690 --> 01:23:13,801
And they detected it. We built the Cosmic Observatory for Background Emissions, the COBE spacecraft,

1144
01:23:13,801 --> 01:23:17,771
and it matched exactly, exactly the astronomers predictions.

1145
01:23:18,725 --> 01:23:21,715
You gotta respect that. It's a wonderful thing.

1146
01:23:22,699 --> 01:23:29,065
Now, along that line is some interest in the age of the earth.

1147
01:23:29,496 --> 01:23:34,284
Right now, it's generally agreed that the Big Bang happened 13.7 billion years ago.

1148
01:23:35,592 --> 01:23:40,906
What we can do on earth. These elements that we all know on the Periodic Table of Chemicals,

1149
01:23:40,998 --> 01:23:46,249
even ones we don't know, were created when stars explode.

1150
01:23:46,356 --> 01:23:51,242
And I look like nobody. But I attended a lecture by Hans Betta who won a Nobel

1151
01:23:51,242 --> 01:23:55,553
Prize for discovering the process by which stars create all these elements.

1152
01:23:56,323 --> 01:24:01,431
The one that interests me especially is our good friends Rubidium and Strontium.

1153
01:24:02,385 --> 01:24:06,320
Rubidium becomes Strontium spontaneously. It's an interesting thing to me.

1154
01:24:07,197 --> 01:24:11,410
A neutron becomes a proton. And it goes up the Periodic Table.

1155
01:24:11,949 --> 01:24:14,406
When lava comes out of the ground, molten lava,

1156
01:24:14,991 --> 01:24:18,587
and it freezes, turns to rock, when the melt solidifies,

1157
01:24:18,587 --> 01:24:22,780
or crystalizes, it locks the Rubidium and Strontium in place.

1158
01:24:23,410 --> 01:24:30,073
And so by careful assay, by careful, by being diligent, you can tell when the rock froze.

1159
01:24:30,657 --> 01:24:35,637
You can tell how old the Rubidium and Strontium are. And you can get an age for the earth.

1160
01:24:36,083 --> 01:24:42,144
When that stuff falls on fossils, you can get a very good idea of how old the fossils are.

1161
01:24:42,144 --> 01:24:46,452
I encourage you all to go to Nebraska, go to Ashfall State Park

1162
01:24:46,821 --> 01:24:51,455
and see the astonishing fossils. It looks like a Hollywood movie.

1163
01:24:51,455 --> 01:24:56,119
There are rhinoceroses. There are three-toed horses in Nebraska.

1164
01:24:56,688 --> 01:25:01,858
None of those animals are extant today. And they are buried, catastrophically, by a

1165
01:25:01,858 --> 01:25:05,131
volcano in what is now Idaho. Is now Yellowstone National Park.

1166
01:25:05,131 --> 01:25:07,829
What is called the hot spot. People call it the super-volcano.

1167
01:25:08,552 --> 01:25:12,557
And it's the remarkable thing. Apparently, as I can tell you, as a Northwesterner around

1168
01:25:12,557 --> 01:25:16,096
for Mount St. Helen's. For full disclosure I'm on the Mount St. Helen's Board.

1169
01:25:16,989 --> 01:25:20,128
When it (explosive sound), when it goes off it gives out a great deal of gas

1170
01:25:20,390 --> 01:25:24,622
that's toxic and knock these animals out. Looking for relief, they go to a watering

1171
01:25:24,622 --> 01:25:28,875
hole. And then when the ash comes they were all buried. It's an extraordinary place.

1172
01:25:29,659 --> 01:25:36,057
Now if in the bad old days, you had heart problems, they would right away cut you open.

1173
01:25:36,919 --> 01:25:42,953
Now, we use a drug based on Rubidium to look at the inside of your heart without cutting you open.

1174
01:25:44,030 --> 01:25:51,817
Now, my Kentucky friends, I want you to consider this. Right now, there is no place

1175
01:25:51,817 --> 01:25:57,061
in the Commonwealth of Kentucky to get a degree in this kind of nuclear medicine--

1176
01:25:57,061 --> 01:25:59,397
this kind of drugs associated with that.

1177
01:25:59,967 --> 01:26:03,927
I hope you find that troubling. I hope you're concerned about that.

1178
01:26:04,481 --> 01:26:10,660
You want scientifically literate students in your commonwealth for a better tomorrow for everybody.

1179
01:26:11,552 --> 01:26:15,478
You can, you can't get this here. You have to go out of state.

1180
01:26:16,293 --> 01:26:21,562
Now as far as the distance to stars. Understand this is very well understood.

1181
01:26:22,315 --> 01:26:26,743
We, it's February. We look at a star in February. We measure an angle to it.

1182
01:26:26,943 --> 01:26:31,406
We wait six months. We look at that same star again and we measure that angle.

1183
01:26:31,406 --> 01:26:36,655
It's the same way carpenters built this building. It's the same way surveyors surveyed the land that we're standing on.

1184
01:26:37,116 --> 01:26:41,957
And so by measuring the distance to a star, you can figure out how far away it is, that star,

1185
01:26:41,957 --> 01:26:46,381
and the stars beyond it, and the stars beyond that. There are billions of stars.

1186
01:26:46,381 --> 01:26:50,202
Billions of stars more than six thousand light years from here.

1187
01:26:50,663 --> 01:26:54,287
A light year is a unit of distance, not a unit of time.

1188
01:26:54,933 --> 01:27:00,982
There are billions of stars. Mr. Hamm, how could there be billions of stars more distant

1189
01:27:00,982 --> 01:27:04,916
than six thousand years, if the world's only six thousand years old?

1190
01:27:05,208 --> 01:27:12,137
It's an extraordinary claim. There's another astronomer, Adolphe Quetele, who remarked first

1191
01:27:13,413 --> 01:27:23,805
about the reasonable man. Is it reasonable that we have ice older by a factor of a hundred than you claim the earth is?

1192
01:27:23,836 --> 01:27:26,769
We have trees that have more tree rings than the earth is old.

1193
01:27:27,123 --> 01:27:32,983
We have rocks with Rubidium and Strontium, and Uranium-Uranium, and Potassium-Argon dating

1194
01:27:32,998 --> 01:27:36,669
that are far, far, far older than you claim the earth is.

1195
01:27:36,884 --> 01:27:43,326
Could anybody have built an ark that would sustain the better than any ark anybody was able to build on the earth?

1196
01:27:44,172 --> 01:27:48,402
So, if you're asking me, and I got the impression you were,

1197
01:27:49,048 --> 01:27:55,266
is Ken Hamm's creation model viable? I say "No! Absolutely not!"

1198
01:27:55,742 --> 01:28:01,672
Now, one last thing. You may not know that in the US Constitution, from the founding fathers,

1199
01:28:02,396 --> 01:28:06,158
is the sentence "to promote the progress of science and useful arts..."

1200
01:28:08,281 --> 01:28:11,840
Kentucky voters, voters who might be watching online,

1201
01:28:12,024 --> 01:28:16,838
in places like Texas, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kansas, please

1202
01:28:16,838 --> 01:28:19,761
you don't want to raise a generation of science students

1203
01:28:19,761 --> 01:28:23,796
who don't understand how we know our place in the cosmos,

1204
01:28:23,796 --> 01:28:26,052
our place in space, who don't understand natural law.

1205
01:28:26,498 --> 01:28:30,057
We need to innovate to keep the United States where it is in the world.

1206
01:28:30,807 --> 01:28:35,929
Thank you very much. (applause)

1207
01:28:48,561 --> 01:28:51,118
Moderator: That's a lot to take in. I hope everybody's holding up well.

1208
01:28:51,565 --> 01:28:55,027
That's a lot of information. What we're going to have now is a five minute

1209
01:28:55,412 --> 01:28:58,993
rebuttal time for each gentleman to address the other one's comments.

1210
01:28:59,393 --> 01:29:03,304
And then there will be a five minute counter rebuttal after that.

1211
01:29:04,397 --> 01:29:06,221
Things are going to start moving a little more quickly now.

1212
01:29:06,221 --> 01:29:10,776
So at this point in particular, I want to make sure we don't have applauding or anything else going on that slows it down.

1213
01:29:11,145 --> 01:29:14,804
So, Mr. Hamm, if you'd like to begin with your five minute rebuttal first.

1214
01:29:25,140 --> 01:29:30,124
Mr. Hamm: First of all, Bill, if I was to answer all the points that you brought up,

1215
01:29:30,497 --> 01:29:33,841
the moderator would think that I was going on for millions of years. (laughter)

1216
01:29:34,041 --> 01:29:35,378
So I can only deal with some of them.

1217
01:29:35,778 --> 01:29:39,373
And you mentioned the age of the earth a couple of times, so let me deal with that.

1218
01:29:40,096 --> 01:29:48,694
As I said in my presentation, you can't observe the age of the earth. I would say that comes under what we call historical origin science.

1219
01:29:48,940 --> 01:29:51,514
Now, just so you understand where I'm coming from.

1220
01:29:52,037 --> 01:29:56,782
Yes, we admit we build our origins from historical science on the Bible.

1221
01:29:57,290 --> 01:30:02,280
The Bible says God created in six days. A Hebrew word "yon" as it's used in Genesis 1

1222
01:30:02,280 --> 01:30:05,833
with evening/morning number means an ordinary day. Adam was made on day six.

1223
01:30:06,387 --> 01:30:09,737
And so, when you add up all those geneologies specifically given in the Bible

1224
01:30:10,460 --> 01:30:20,023
from Adam to Abraham you've got 2,000 years; from Abraham to Christ 2,000 years; from Christ to the present 2,000 years.

1225
01:30:20,023 --> 01:30:23,613
That's how we get 6,000 years. So that's where it comes from. Just so you know.

1226
01:30:24,059 --> 01:30:29,788
Now a lot of people say. Now, by the way, the earth's age is 4.5 billion years old.

1227
01:30:30,618 --> 01:30:34,737
And we have radioactive decay dating methods that found that.

1228
01:30:35,368 --> 01:30:38,283
But you see, we certainly observe radioactive decay

1229
01:30:38,606 --> 01:30:42,380
whether it's rubidium-strontium, whether it's uranium-lead, potassium-argon

1230
01:30:42,733 --> 01:30:45,627
But when you're talking about the past, we have a problem.

1231
01:30:46,381 --> 01:30:49,564
I'll give you a practical example. In Australia, there were engineers

1232
01:30:49,564 --> 01:30:53,163
that were trying to search out about a coal mine.

1233
01:30:53,163 --> 01:30:58,044
And so they drilled down and they found a basalt layer, a lava flow that had woody material in it--

1234
01:30:58,044 --> 01:31:04,387
branches and twigs and so on. And when Dr. Andrew Snelling, our PhD geologist,

1235
01:31:04,387 --> 01:31:08,519
sent that to a lab in Massachusetts in 1994, they used potassium-argon

1236
01:31:08,519 --> 01:31:10,688
dating and dated it at 45 million years old.

1237
01:31:11,258 --> 01:31:15,563
Well, he also sent the wood to the radio-carbon section of the same lab

1238
01:31:15,563 --> 01:31:20,069
and that dated at 45,000 years old. 45,000 year old wood in 45 million year old rock.

1239
01:31:20,315 --> 01:31:21,898
The point is there's a problem.

1240
01:31:22,728 --> 01:31:24,626
Let me give you another example of a problem.

1241
01:31:25,241 --> 01:31:29,692
There was a lava dome that started to form in the 80's after Mt. St. Helen's erupted.

1242
01:31:30,385 --> 01:31:36,568
And in 1994 Dr. Steve Austin, another PhD geologist, actually sampled the rock there.

1243
01:31:37,121 --> 01:31:45,127
He took whole rock, crushed it, sent it to the same lab actually, I believe, and got a date of .35 million years.

1244
01:31:45,327 --> 01:31:50,243
When he separated out the minerals amphibole and pyroxene and used potassium-argon dating,

1245
01:31:50,535 --> 01:31:56,903
he got .9 million and 2.8 million. My point is all these dating methods actually give all sorts of different dates.

1246
01:31:56,903 --> 01:32:01,937
In fact, different dating methods on the same rock, we can show, give all sorts of different dates.

1247
01:32:02,230 --> 01:32:04,811
See there's lots of assumptions in regard to radioactive dating.

1248
01:32:04,872 --> 01:32:09,409
Number one, for instance, the amounts of the parent and daughter isotopes at the beginning when the rock formed.

1249
01:32:09,409 --> 01:32:12,388
We have to know them. But you weren't there. See that's historical science.

1250
01:32:12,696 --> 01:32:20,368
Assumption 2: that all daughter atoms measured today must have only been derived in situ radioactive decay of parent atoms.

1251
01:32:20,368 --> 01:32:21,750
In other words it's a closed system.

1252
01:32:21,750 --> 01:32:24,270
But you don't know that. And there's a lot of evidence that that's not so.

1253
01:32:24,809 --> 01:32:28,710
Assumption Number 3: that the decay rates have remained a constant.

1254
01:32:29,048 --> 01:32:30,739
Now they're just some of them. There's others as well.

1255
01:32:30,739 --> 01:32:33,648
The point is there's lots of assumptions in regard to the dating methods.

1256
01:32:33,648 --> 01:32:39,495
So there's no dating method you can use that you can absolutely age date a rock.

1257
01:32:39,495 --> 01:32:41,768
There's all sorts of differences out there.

1258
01:32:42,245 --> 01:32:46,128
And I do want to address the bit you brought up about Christians believing in millions of years.

1259
01:32:46,128 --> 01:32:48,269
Yeah, there's a lot of Christians out there that believe in millions of years,

1260
01:32:48,269 --> 01:32:52,234
but I'd say they have a problem. I'm not saying they're not Christians, but

1261
01:32:52,234 --> 01:32:55,819
because salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ, not the age of the earth.

1262
01:32:55,942 --> 01:32:58,425
But there's an inconsistency with what the Bible teaches.

1263
01:32:58,702 --> 01:33:03,818
If you believe in millions of years, you've got death and bloodshed, suffering, and disease

1264
01:33:04,325 --> 01:33:07,810
over millions of years leading to man, because that's what you see in the fossil record.

1265
01:33:07,810 --> 01:33:11,208
The Bible makes it very clear death is a result of man's sin.

1266
01:33:11,208 --> 01:33:15,801
In fact, the first death was in the garden when God killed an animal, clothed Adam and Eve,

1267
01:33:16,247 --> 01:33:20,334
first blood sacrifice pointing towards what would happen with Jesus Christ.

1268
01:33:20,642 --> 01:33:23,759
He would be the one who would die once and for all.

1269
01:33:23,759 --> 01:33:27,153
Now if you believe in millions of years as a Christian, in the fossil record

1270
01:33:27,153 --> 01:33:30,948
there's evidence of animals eating each other, Bible says originally all the animals

1271
01:33:30,948 --> 01:33:35,346
and man were vegetarian. We weren't told we could eat meat until after the flood.

1272
01:33:35,346 --> 01:33:39,873
There's diseases represented in the fossil record like brain tumors, but the Bible

1273
01:33:39,873 --> 01:33:41,911
says when God made everything it was very good.

1274
01:33:41,911 --> 01:33:43,820
God doesn't call brain tumors very good.

1275
01:33:44,174 --> 01:33:47,909
There's fossilized thorns in the fossil record said to be hundreds of millions of years old,

1276
01:33:47,909 --> 01:33:50,742
the Bible says thorns came after the curse.

1277
01:33:51,019 --> 01:33:53,103
So these two things can't be true at the same time.

1278
01:33:53,642 --> 01:33:56,765
You know what? There's hundreds of dating methods out there, hundreds of them.

1279
01:33:57,027 --> 01:34:03,591
Actually, 90% of them contradict billions of years. And the point is, all such dating methods are fallible.

1280
01:34:03,591 --> 01:34:07,808
And I claim, there's only one infallible dating method, it's a witness who was there,

1281
01:34:07,808 --> 01:34:11,397
who knows everything, who told us. And that's from the word of God.

1282
01:34:11,397 --> 01:34:16,570
And that's why I would say that the earth is only 6,000 years. And, as Dr. Faulkner said,

1283
01:34:16,570 --> 01:34:20,221
there's nothing in astronomy, and certainly Dr. Snelling would say, there's nothing in geology

1284
01:34:20,221 --> 01:34:25,437
to contradict a belief in a young age for the earth and the universe.

1285
01:34:25,837 --> 01:34:28,397
Moderator: Thank you Mr. Ham. Mr. Nye, your five-minute rebuttal please.

1286
01:34:29,227 --> 01:34:32,098
Mr. Nye: Thank you very much. Let me start with the beginning.

1287
01:34:32,667 --> 01:34:37,014
If you find 45 million year old rock on top of 45 thousand year old trees,

1288
01:34:37,014 --> 01:34:42,507
maybe the rock slid on top. Maybe that's it. That seems much more reasonable explanation

1289
01:34:42,507 --> 01:34:49,599
than, "It's impossible." Then as far as dating goes, actually the methods are

1290
01:34:49,599 --> 01:34:54,850
very reliable. One of the mysteries, or interesting things that people in my business,

1291
01:34:54,850 --> 01:35:00,241
especially at the Planetary Society, are interested in is why all the asteroids seem to be

1292
01:35:00,241 --> 01:35:06,838
so close to the same date in age. It's 4.5, 4.6 billion years.

1293
01:35:06,838 --> 01:35:10,976
It's a remarkable thing. People at first expected a little more of a spread.

1294
01:35:11,437 --> 01:35:19,792
So, I understand that you take the Bible as written in English, translated countless,

1295
01:35:20,007 --> 01:35:26,012
not countless, but many, many times over the last three millenia as to be a more accurate,

1296
01:35:26,012 --> 01:35:29,061
more reasonable assessment of the natural laws we see around us

1297
01:35:29,061 --> 01:35:37,613
than what I and everybody in here can observe. That to me is unsettling, troubling.

1298
01:35:37,951 --> 01:35:46,924
And then about the disease thing, are the fish sinners? Have they done something wrong to get diseases?

1299
01:35:48,155 --> 01:35:54,536
That's sort of an extraordinary claim that takes me just a little past what I'm comfortable with.

1300
01:35:55,074 --> 01:36:00,739
And then, as far as you can't observe the past, I have to stop you right there.

1301
01:36:00,739 --> 01:36:02,380
That's what we do in astronomy.

1302
01:36:02,641 --> 01:36:06,081
All we can do in astronomy is look at the past.

1303
01:36:06,373 --> 01:36:12,912
By the way, you're looking at the past right now. Because the speed of light bounces off of me

1304
01:36:12,912 --> 01:36:18,557
and then gets to your eyes. And I'm delighted to see that the people in the back of the room

1305
01:36:18,557 --> 01:36:22,115
appear just that much younger than the people in the front.

1306
01:36:23,853 --> 01:36:31,980
So this idea that you can separate the natural laws of the past from the natural laws that we have now,

1307
01:36:31,980 --> 01:36:37,564
I think is at the heart of our disagreement. 
I don't see how we're ever going to agree with that

1308
01:36:37,564 --> 01:36:43,932
if you insist that natural laws have changed. It's, for lack of a better word, it's magical.

1309
01:36:44,408 --> 01:36:50,287
And I have appreciated magic since I was a kid, but it's not really what we want

1310
01:36:50,287 --> 01:37:01,524
in conventional, mainstream science. So, your assertion that all the animals were vegetarians

1311
01:37:02,570 --> 01:37:09,790
before they got on the ark. That's really remarkable. I have not spent a lot of time with lions,

1312
01:37:10,497 --> 01:37:14,014
but I can tell they've got teeth that really aren't set up for broccoli.

1313
01:37:16,276 --> 01:37:22,165
That these animals were vegetarians til this flood is something that I would ask you

1314
01:37:22,165 --> 01:37:28,988
to provide a little more proof for. I give you the lion's teeth, you give me verses

1315
01:37:28,988 --> 01:37:33,530
as translated into English over, what, 30 centuries?

1316
01:37:34,053 --> 01:37:39,608
So, that's not enough evidence for me. If you've ever played telephone, I did, I remember very well

1317
01:37:39,608 --> 01:37:43,125
in kindergarten where you have a secret and you whisper it to the next person, to the next person,

1318
01:37:43,125 --> 01:37:50,520
to the next person. Things often go wrong. So it's very reasonable to me that instead of lions being vegetarians on the ark,

1319
01:37:51,935 --> 01:38:01,799
lions are lions, and the information that you used to create your world view is not consistent with

1320
01:38:01,799 --> 01:38:11,112
what I, as a reasonable man, would expect. So, I want everybody to consider the implications of this.

1321
01:38:12,281 --> 01:38:23,385
If we accept Mr. Ham's point of view, that the Bible as translated into American English,

1322
01:38:24,631 --> 01:38:31,144
serves as a science text, and that he and his followers will interpret that for you,

1323
01:38:32,129 --> 01:38:39,596
Just, I want you to consider what that means. It means that Mr. Ham's word or his interpretation

1324
01:38:39,596 --> 01:38:46,413
of these other words, is somehow to be more respected than what you can observe in nature.

1325
01:38:46,413 --> 01:38:50,174
Than what you can find literally in your backyard, in Kentucky.

1326
01:38:50,912 --> 01:38:58,154
It's a troubling and unsettling point of view, and it's one I very much like you to address when you come back.

1327
01:38:58,815 --> 01:39:03,829
As far as the five races that you mentioned, it's kind of the same thing.

1328
01:39:04,336 --> 01:39:07,966
The five races were claimed by people who were of European descent,

1329
01:39:07,966 --> 01:39:12,031
and said, "Hey, we're the best! Check us out!" And that turns out to be,

1330
01:39:12,031 --> 01:39:16,809
if you've ever traveled anywhere or done anything, not to be that way.

1331
01:39:16,809 --> 01:39:19,087
People are much more alike than they are different.

1332
01:39:19,518 --> 01:39:25,977
So, are we supposed to take your word for English words translated over the last 30 centuries,

1333
01:39:26,485 --> 01:39:29,302
instead of what we can observe in the universe around us?

1334
01:39:30,332 --> 01:39:33,878
Moderator: Very good. And Mr. Ham, would you like to offer your five minute counter rebuttal?

1335
01:39:37,601 --> 01:39:41,070
Ken Ham: Uh, first of all, Bill, just so, I just don't want a misunderstanding here,

1336
01:39:41,454 --> 01:39:47,258
and that is, the 45,000-year-old wood, or supposedly 45,000 was inside the basalt.

1337
01:39:47,673 --> 01:39:54,473
Um, so, it was encased in the basalt. Uh, and that's why I was making that particular point.

1338
01:39:54,919 --> 01:39:59,531
And I would also say that natural law hasn't changed. As I talked about, you know,

1339
01:39:59,531 --> 01:40:03,693
I said we had the laws of logic, the uniformity of nature. And that only makes sense

1340
01:40:03,693 --> 01:40:07,549
within a biblical worldview anyway, of a creator God, who set up those laws,

1341
01:40:07,549 --> 01:40:11,237
and that's why we can do good experimental science, because we assume those laws are true,

1342
01:40:11,237 --> 01:40:20,316
and they'll be true tomorrow. I do want to say this. that you said a few times, you know,

1343
01:40:20,316 --> 01:40:26,094
Ken Ham's view or model. It's not just Ken Ham's model. We have a number of PhD scientists

1344
01:40:26,094 --> 01:40:31,479
on our own staff. I quoted, had video quotes, from some scientists.

1345
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:40,085
It's Dr. Damadian's model. It's Dr. Fabich's model. It's Dr. Faulkner's model. It's Dr. Snelling's model.

1346
01:40:40,085 --> 01:40:44,838
It's Dr. Purdom's model. And so it goes on, in other words. And you go on our website,

1347
01:40:44,838 --> 01:40:50,804
and there are lots of creation scientists who agree with exactly what we're saying concerning

1348
01:40:50,804 --> 01:40:56,731
the Bible's account of creation. So it's not just "my model" in that sense.

1349
01:40:58,392 --> 01:41:05,310
There is so much that I can say, but, as I listen to you, I believe you're confusing terms

1350
01:41:05,310 --> 01:41:11,040
in regard to species and kinds. Because we're not saying that God created all those species.

1351
01:41:11,040 --> 01:41:15,967
We're saying God created kinds. And we're not saying species got on the ark, we're saying kinds.

1352
01:41:15,967 --> 01:41:19,757
In fact, we've had researchers working on what is a kind. For instance, there's a number of papers,

1353
01:41:19,757 --> 01:41:23,591
published on our website, where, for instance, they look at dogs. And they say, well, this one

1354
01:41:23,591 --> 01:41:28,378
breeds with this one, with this one, with this one. And you can look at all the papers around the world

1355
01:41:28,378 --> 01:41:32,019
and you can connect them all together and say that obviously represents one kind.

1356
01:41:32,019 --> 01:41:36,555
In fact, as they have been doing that research, they have predicted probably less than actually a thousand

1357
01:41:36,555 --> 01:41:42,043
kinds were on Noah's ark, which means just over 2,000 animals. And the average size of a land animal

1358
01:41:42,043 --> 01:41:48,371
is not that big so, you know, there was plenty of room on the ark. I also believe that

1359
01:41:48,371 --> 01:41:52,982
a lot of what you were saying was really illustrating my point. Uh, you were talking about tree rings

1360
01:41:52,982 --> 01:41:58,255
and ice layers and, just talking about kangaroos getting to Australia, and all sorts of things like that.

1361
01:41:58,255 --> 01:42:03,416
But see, we're talking about the past, when we weren't there. We didn't see those tree rings actually forming.

1362
01:42:03,416 --> 01:42:10,094
We didn't see those layers being laid down. You know, in 1942, for instance, there were some planes

1363
01:42:10,094 --> 01:42:15,198
that landed on the ice in Greenland. They found them, what, 46 years later, I think it was,

1364
01:42:15,198 --> 01:42:20,132
three miles away from the original location with 250 feet of ice buried on top of them.

1365
01:42:20,132 --> 01:42:24,476
So, ice can build up catastrophically. If you assume one layer a year, or something like that,

1366
01:42:24,476 --> 01:42:30,021
it's like the dating methods. You are assuming things in regard to the past that aren't necessarily true.

1367
01:42:30,621 --> 01:42:39,188
In regard to lions and teeth, bears, most bears have teeth very much like a lion or tiger, and yet, most bears

1368
01:42:39,188 --> 01:42:42,879
are primarily vegetarian. The panda, if you look at its teeth, you'd say, maybe it should be a

1369
01:42:42,879 --> 01:42:48,398
savage carnivore. It eats mainly bamboo. The little fruit bat in Australia has really sharp teeth,

1370
01:42:48,398 --> 01:42:51,447
looks like a savage little creature, and it rips into fruit.

1371
01:42:51,447 --> 01:42:56,432
Uh, so, just cause an animal has sharp teeth doesn't mean it's a meat eater. It means it has sharp teeth.

1372
01:42:56,786 --> 01:43:03,063
Uh, so again, it really comes down to our interpretation of these things.

1373
01:43:03,247 --> 01:43:07,414
I think too, in regard to the Missoula, uh, example that you gave, you know,

1374
01:43:07,414 --> 01:43:10,160
creationists do believe there's been post-flood catastrophism.

1375
01:43:10,976 --> 01:43:17,825
Noah's flood, certainly, was a catastrophic event. But then there's been post-flood catastrophism since that time as well.

1376
01:43:18,148 --> 01:43:22,166
And again, in regard to historical science, why would you say Noah was unskilled?

1377
01:43:22,166 --> 01:43:28,848
I mean, I didn't meet Noah, and neither did you. And you know, really, it's an evolutionary view of origins I believe

1378
01:43:28,848 --> 01:43:31,995
cause you're thinking in terms people before us aren't as good as us.

1379
01:43:31,995 --> 01:43:37,098
Hey, there are civilizations that existed in the past, and we look at their technology,

1380
01:43:37,098 --> 01:43:41,098
and we can't even understand today how they did some of the things that they did.

1381
01:43:41,098 --> 01:43:45,177
Who says Noah couldn't build a big boat? By the way, the Chinese and the Egyptians built boats.

1382
01:43:45,177 --> 01:43:49,085
In fact, some of our research indicates that some of the wooden boats that were built

1383
01:43:49,085 --> 01:43:52,827
had three layers interlocking so they wouldn't twist like that and leak, which is why,

1384
01:43:52,827 --> 01:43:58,876
here at the Creation Museum, we have an exhibit on the ark, where we've rebuilt 1% of the ark to scale

1385
01:43:59,199 --> 01:44:03,946
and shown three interlocking layers like that. And one last thing, concerning the speed of light,

1386
01:44:04,438 --> 01:44:09,895
and that is, I'm sure you're aware of the horizon problem. And that is, from a Big Bang perspective,

1387
01:44:09,895 --> 01:44:15,428
even the secularists have a problem of getting light and radiation out to the universe

1388
01:44:15,428 --> 01:44:20,620
to be able to exchange with the rest of the universe, to get that even microwave background radiation.

1389
01:44:20,620 --> 01:44:27,123
On their model, 15 billion years or so, they can only get it about halfway.

1390
01:44:27,123 --> 01:44:32,128
And that's why they have inflation theories, which means, everyone has a problem concerning the light issue.

1391
01:44:32,128 --> 01:44:35,769
There's things people don't understand. And we have some models on our website

1392
01:44:35,769 --> 01:44:39,063
by some of our scientists to help explain those sorts of things.

1393
01:44:40,186 --> 01:44:41,792
Moderator: Mr. Nye, your counter rebuttal.

1394
01:44:42,808 --> 01:44:45,040
Bill Nye: Thank you Mr. Ham, but I'm completely unsatisfied.

1395
01:44:45,871 --> 01:44:53,526
You did not, in my view, address this fundamental question. 680,000 years of snow ice layers

1396
01:44:53,526 --> 01:44:59,590
which require winter summer cycle. Let's say you have 2,000 kinds instead of seven.

1397
01:44:59,590 --> 01:45:06,031
That makes the problem even more extraordinary, multiplying eleven by what's, three and a half?

1398
01:45:06,554 --> 01:45:13,441
We get to 35... 40 species every day that we don't see, they're not extant.

1399
01:45:13,441 --> 01:45:19,991
In fact, you probably know we're losing species due to mostly human activity and the loss of habitat.

1400
01:45:21,037 --> 01:45:25,601
Then, as far as Noah being an extraordinary shipwright, I'm very skeptical.

1401
01:45:25,786 --> 01:45:32,611
The shipwrights, my ancestors, the Nye family in New England, took, spent their whole life learning to make ships.

1402
01:45:33,304 --> 01:45:38,556
I mean, it's very reasonable, perhaps, to you that Noah had superpowers

1403
01:45:38,556 --> 01:45:45,683
and was able to build this extraordinary craft with seven family members, but to me, it's just not reasonable.

1404
01:45:47,529 --> 01:45:53,088
Then, uh, by the way, the fundamental thing we disagree on, Mr. Ham,

1405
01:45:53,088 --> 01:46:00,821
is this nature of what you can prove to yourself. This is to say, when people make assumptions

1406
01:46:01,913 --> 01:46:06,577
based on radiometric data, when they make assumptions about the expanding universe,

1407
01:46:06,577 --> 01:46:13,043
when they make assumptions about the rate at which genes change in populations of bacteria

1408
01:46:13,043 --> 01:46:20,117
in laboratory growth media, they are making assumptions based on previous experience.

1409
01:46:20,117 --> 01:46:25,726
They're not coming out of whole cloth. So, next time you have a chance to speak,

1410
01:46:25,726 --> 01:46:35,171
I encourage you to explain to us why... why we should accept your word for it that natural law changed

1411
01:46:36,878 --> 01:46:43,691
just 4,000 years ago, completely. And there's no record of it. You know, there are pyramids that are older than that.

1412
01:46:43,691 --> 01:46:50,892
There are human populations that are far older than that, with traditions that go back farther that that.

1413
01:46:51,415 --> 01:46:55,925
And it's just not reasonable to me that everything changed 4,000 years ago.

1414
01:46:55,925 --> 01:47:02,170
By everything, I mean the species, the surface of the Earth, the stars in the sky,

1415
01:47:02,831 --> 01:47:06,830
and the relationship of all the other living things on Earth to humans.

1416
01:47:06,830 --> 01:47:10,548
It's just not reasonable to me that everything changed like that. (Snaps fingers.)

1417
01:47:11,455 --> 01:47:15,284
And another thing I would very much appreciate you addressing:

1418
01:47:16,299 --> 01:47:21,410
there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious. And I respect that.

1419
01:47:21,994 --> 01:47:28,041
People get tremendous community and comfort and nurture and support from their religious fellows

1420
01:47:28,041 --> 01:47:31,813
in their communities, in their faiths, in their churches.

1421
01:47:32,397 --> 01:47:35,020
And yet, they don't accept your point of view.

1422
01:47:35,943 --> 01:47:42,581
There are Christians who don't accept that the Earth could somehow be this extraordinary young age

1423
01:47:42,581 --> 01:47:48,520
because of all the evidence around them. And so, what is to become of them, in your view?

1424
01:47:49,366 --> 01:47:56,620
And by the way, this thing started, as I understand it, Ken Ham's creation model is based on the Old Testament.

1425
01:47:57,127 --> 01:48:01,652
So when you bring in, I'm not a theologian, when you bring in the New Testament,

1426
01:48:01,652 --> 01:48:09,059
isn't that little, uh, out of the box? I'm looking for explanations of the creation of the world

1427
01:48:09,059 --> 01:48:17,393
as we know it, uh, based on what I'm gonna call science. Not historical science, not observational science.

1428
01:48:17,393 --> 01:48:23,369
Science: things that each of us can do akin to what we do, we're trying to outguess the characters

1429
01:48:23,369 --> 01:48:30,668
on murder mystery shows, on crime scene investigation, especially.

1430
01:48:31,468 --> 01:48:34,770
What is to become of all those people, who don't see it your way?

1431
01:48:35,540 --> 01:48:41,657
For us, in the scientific community, I remind you, that when we find an idea that's not tenable,

1432
01:48:41,657 --> 01:48:49,434
that doesn't work, that doesn't fly, doesn't hold water, whatever idiom you'd like to embrace, we throw it away.

1433
01:48:49,634 --> 01:48:54,980
We are delighted. That's why I say, if you can find a fossil that has swum between the layers, bring it on!

1434
01:48:55,687 --> 01:49:00,806
You would change the world. If you could show that somehow the microwave background radiation

1435
01:49:00,806 --> 01:49:06,428
is not a result of the Big Bang, come on! Write your paper. Tear it up!

1436
01:49:07,412 --> 01:49:14,270
So, your view, that we're supposed to take your word for this book written centuries ago,

1437
01:49:14,270 --> 01:49:20,993
translated into American English, is somehow more important that what I can see with my own eyes,

1438
01:49:20,993 --> 01:49:27,304
is an extraordinary claim. And, for those watching online, especially, I want to remind you

1439
01:49:27,304 --> 01:49:31,158
that we need scientists, and especially engineers for the future.

1440
01:49:31,727 --> 01:49:36,762
Engineers use science to solve problems and make things. We need these people

1441
01:49:36,777 --> 01:49:40,833
so that the United States can continue to innovate and continue to be a world leader.

1442
01:49:41,340 --> 01:49:45,717
We need innovation, and that needs science education. Thank you.

1443
01:49:46,024 --> 01:49:51,367
Moderator: All right. Thank you both. Uh, now we're going to get to the things moving a little bit faster.

1444
01:49:51,629 --> 01:49:55,390
I think they might be quite interesting here. It's 40 to 45 minutes, maybe a little bit more, actually.

1445
01:49:55,390 --> 01:50:00,379
We'll have a little more. For questions and answers submitted by our audience here in the Creation Museum.

1446
01:50:00,379 --> 01:50:04,787
Beforehand, we handed out these cards to everyone. I shuffled them here in the back,

1447
01:50:04,787 --> 01:50:07,951
and in fact, I dropped a lot of them, and then I scooped them up again.

1448
01:50:07,951 --> 01:50:13,935
And if you saw me sorting through them here, it was to get a pile for Mr. Nye and a pile for Mr. Ham,

1449
01:50:14,319 --> 01:50:18,916
so that we can alternate reasonably between them. Other than that, the only reason I will skip over one

1450
01:50:18,916 --> 01:50:23,953
is if I can't read it, or if it's a question that I don't know how to read because it doesn't seem to make any sense,

1451
01:50:23,953 --> 01:50:27,247
which sometimes happens just because of the way people write. (Audience laughs.)

1452
01:50:27,247 --> 01:50:31,448
What's going to happen is we're gonna go back and forth between Mr. Nye and Mr. Ham.

1453
01:50:31,448 --> 01:50:36,797
Each debater will have two minutes to answer the question addressed to him,

1454
01:50:36,797 --> 01:50:41,846
and then the other will have one minute to also answer the question, even though it was addressed to the other man.

1455
01:50:41,846 --> 01:50:44,671
And I did pull one card aside here, because I noticed it was to both men.

1456
01:50:44,671 --> 01:50:49,105
So we may be able to get to that at some point. Mr. Ham, you've been up first, if you'll hop up first this time.

1457
01:50:49,105 --> 01:50:52,449
And Mr. Nye, you can stand by for your responses. Two minutes.

1458
01:50:52,802 --> 01:51:00,277
How does creationism account for the celestial bodies: planets, stars, moons moving further and further apart?

1459
01:51:00,277 --> 01:51:03,209
And what function does that serve in the grand design?

1460
01:51:04,870 --> 01:51:10,163
Ken Ham: Well, when it comes to looking at the universe, of course, we believe, that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

1461
01:51:10,163 --> 01:51:15,514
And I believe our creationist astronomers would say, "Yeah, you can observe the universe expanding."

1462
01:51:16,067 --> 01:51:20,743
Why God is doing that? In fact, in Bible it even says He stretches out the heavens.

1463
01:51:20,743 --> 01:51:24,894
And seems to indicate that there is an expansion of the universe.

1464
01:51:24,894 --> 01:51:30,864
And so, we would say, yeah, you can observe that. That fits with what we call observational science.

1465
01:51:30,864 --> 01:51:35,231
Exactly why God did it that way? I can't answer that question, of course,

1466
01:51:35,231 --> 01:51:40,222
because, you know, the Bible says that God made the heavens for his glory.

1467
01:51:40,222 --> 01:51:47,367
And that's why he made the stars that we see out there. And it's to tell us how great He is and how big He is.

1468
01:51:47,367 --> 01:51:53,316
And in fact, I think that's the thing about the universe. The universe is so large, so big out there.

1469
01:51:53,316 --> 01:51:59,139
One of our planetarium programs looks at this. We go in and show you how large the universe is.

1470
01:51:59,386 --> 01:52:05,614
And I think it shows us how great God is, how big He is, that He's an all-powerful God,

1471
01:52:05,614 --> 01:52:12,316
He's an infinite God, an infinite, all-knowing God who created the universe to show us his power.

1472
01:52:12,316 --> 01:52:16,325
I mean, can you imagine that, and the thing that's really remarkable in the Bible.

1473
01:52:16,571 --> 01:52:20,993
For instance, it says on the fourth day of creation, and oh, he made the stars also.

1474
01:52:21,285 --> 01:52:26,773
It's almost like, "Oh, by the way, I made the stars." Um, and just to show us He's an all-powerful God.

1475
01:52:26,773 --> 01:52:31,494
He's an infinite God. So, "I made the stars." And he made them to show us how great He is.

1476
01:52:31,494 --> 01:52:35,478
And He is. He's an infinite creator God. And the more that you understand what that means,

1477
01:52:35,478 --> 01:52:41,464
that God is all-powerful, infinite, you stand back in awe. You realize how small we are.

1478
01:52:41,464 --> 01:52:48,440
You realize, wow, that God would consider this planet, is so significant that he created human beings here,

1479
01:52:48,440 --> 01:52:52,920
knowing they would sin, and yet stepped into history to die for us and be raised from the dead.

1480
01:52:53,536 --> 01:52:57,349
Our verse, the free gift of salvation. Wow! What a God!

1481
01:52:57,349 --> 01:53:00,601
And that's what I would say when I see the universe as it is.

1482
01:53:01,017 --> 01:53:02,858
Moderator: Mr. Nye, one minute. And your response?

1483
01:53:03,766 --> 01:53:11,101
Bill Nye: There's a question that troubles us all from the time when we are absolutely youngest and first able to think.

1484
01:53:11,331 --> 01:53:15,008
And that is, where did we come from? Where did I come from?

1485
01:53:15,577 --> 01:53:21,239
And this question is so compelling that we've invented the science of astronomy.

1486
01:53:21,546 --> 01:53:24,669
We've invented life science. We've invented physics.

1487
01:53:24,684 --> 01:53:31,212
We've discovered these natural laws so that we can learn more about our origin and where we came from.

1488
01:53:31,519 --> 01:53:38,392
To you, when it says, He invented the stars also, that's satisfying. You're done.

1489
01:53:38,930 --> 01:53:43,518
Oh, good. Okay. To me, when I look at the night sky, I want to know what's out there.

1490
01:53:43,518 --> 01:53:50,016
I'm driven. I want to know if what's out there is any part of me, and indeed, it is.

1491
01:53:50,723 --> 01:53:55,128
The "oh, by the way" I find compelling you are satisfied.

1492
01:53:55,128 --> 01:54:00,463
And the big thing I want from you, Mr. Ham, is can you come up with something that you can predict?

1493
01:54:00,463 --> 01:54:04,860
Do you have a creation model that predicts something that will happen in nature?

1494
01:54:04,860 --> 01:54:08,385
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Nye, the next question is for you.

1495
01:54:08,831 --> 01:54:11,703
How did the atoms that created the Big Bang get there?

1496
01:54:12,395 --> 01:54:20,365
Bill Nye: This is the great mystery. You've hit the nail on the head. No, this is so, where did, what was before the Big Bang?

1497
01:54:20,795 --> 01:54:25,507
This is what drives us. This is what we want to know. Let's keep looking. Let's keep searching.

1498
01:54:26,015 --> 01:54:31,382
Uh, when I was young, it was presumed that the universe was slowing down.

1499
01:54:31,674 --> 01:54:37,697
It's a big bang, phrooo! Except it's in outer space, there's no air, so (quietly) it goes out like that.

1500
01:54:38,420 --> 01:54:44,638
And so people presumed that it would slow down, that the universe, the gravity, especially,

1501
01:54:44,638 --> 01:54:48,757
would hold everything together and maybe it's going to come back and explode again.

1502
01:54:48,757 --> 01:54:52,335
And people went out. And the mathematical expression is: is the universe flat?

1503
01:54:52,335 --> 01:54:58,134
It's a mathematical expression. Will the universe slow down, slow down, slow down asymptotically without ever stopping?

1504
01:54:58,687 --> 01:55:06,492
Well, in 2004, Saul Perlmutter and his colleagues went looking for the rate at which the universe was slowing down.

1505
01:55:07,707 --> 01:55:12,135
Let's go out and measure it. And we're doing it with this extraordinary system of telescopes around the world,

1506
01:55:12,642 --> 01:55:19,354
looking at the night sky, looking for supernovae. These are a standard brightness that you can infer distances with.

1507
01:55:19,969 --> 01:55:25,566
And the universe isn't slowing down. It's accelerating! The universe is accelerating in its expansion.

1508
01:55:25,566 --> 01:55:31,242
And do you know why? Nobody knows why! (audience laughs) Nobody knows why.

1509
01:55:31,795 --> 01:55:37,972
And you'll hear the expression nowadays, dark energy, dark matter, which are mathematical ideas that seem

1510
01:55:37,972 --> 01:55:45,298
to reckon well with what seems to be the gravitational attraction of clusters of stars, galaxies, and their expansion.

1511
01:55:45,482 --> 01:55:52,302
And then, isn't it reasonable that whatever's out there, causing the universe to expand, is here also?

1512
01:55:52,841 --> 01:55:55,022
And we just haven't figured out how to detect it.

1513
01:55:55,468 --> 01:56:01,724
My friends, suppose a science student from the commonwealth of Kentucky pursues a career in science

1514
01:56:02,185 --> 01:56:08,896
and finds out the answer to that deep question? Where did we come from? What was before the Big Bang?

1515
01:56:08,896 --> 01:56:13,919
To us, this is wonderful and charming and compelling. This is what makes us get up and go to work everyday,

1516
01:56:14,042 --> 01:56:16,282
is to try to solve the mysteries of the universe.

1517
01:56:16,282 --> 01:56:18,820
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham, a response?

1518
01:56:19,036 --> 01:56:22,242
Ken Ham: Uh, Bill, I just want to let you know that there actually is

1519
01:56:22,242 --> 01:56:27,818
a book out there that actually tells us where matter came from. (Audience laughs.)

1520
01:56:27,818 --> 01:56:33,640
And, the very first sentence in that book says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

1521
01:56:34,040 --> 01:56:39,293
And really, that's the only thing that makes sense. That's the only thing that makes sense of why, not just matter is here,

1522
01:56:39,293 --> 01:56:49,209
where it came from, but why matter, when you look at it, we have information and language systems that build life.

1523
01:56:49,270 --> 01:56:53,842
We're not just matter. And where did that come from? Because matter can never produce information.

1524
01:56:53,842 --> 01:56:57,849
Matter can never produce a language system. Languages only come from intelligence.

1525
01:56:58,372 --> 01:57:03,923
Information only comes from information. The Bible tells us that the things we see, like in the book of Hebrews,

1526
01:57:03,923 --> 01:57:09,931
are made from things that are unseen. An infinite creator God who created the universe,

1527
01:57:09,931 --> 01:57:14,623
created matter, the energy, space, mass, time universe, and created the information for life.

1528
01:57:14,623 --> 01:57:16,164
It's the only thing that makes logical sense.

1529
01:57:17,672 --> 01:57:21,432
Moderator: Alright, Mr. Ham, a new question here. The overwhelming majority of people in the

1530
01:57:21,432 --> 01:57:25,816
scientific community have presented valid, physical evidence, such as carbon dating and fossils,

1531
01:57:25,816 --> 01:57:33,077
to support evolutionary theory. What evidence besides the literal word of the Bible supports creationism?

1532
01:57:34,213 --> 01:57:37,500
Ken Ham: Well, first of all, you know, I often hear people talking about "the majority".

1533
01:57:37,992 --> 01:57:42,206
I would agree that the majority of scientists would believe

1534
01:57:42,206 --> 01:57:45,398
in millions of years and the majority would believe in evolution,

1535
01:57:45,398 --> 01:57:48,847
but there's a large group out there that certainly don't.

1536
01:57:49,154 --> 01:57:57,217
But, first thing I want to say is, it's not the majority that's the judge of truth.

1537
01:57:57,217 --> 01:58:01,169
There have been many times in the past when the majority have got it wrong.

1538
01:58:01,169 --> 01:58:04,404
The majority of doctors in England once thought after you cut up bodies,

1539
01:58:04,404 --> 01:58:06,470
you could go and deliver babies and wondered why

1540
01:58:06,470 --> 01:58:08,020
the death rate was high in hospitals,

1541
01:58:08,020 --> 01:58:13,286
till they found out about diseases caused by bacteria and so on.

1542
01:58:13,286 --> 01:58:17,517
The majority once thought the appendix was a leftover organ

1543
01:58:17,517 --> 01:58:20,662
from evolutionary ancestry, so, you know, when it's okay,

1544
01:58:20,662 --> 01:58:23,757
rip it out. When it's diseased, rip it out. Rip it out anyway.

1545
01:58:24,634 --> 01:58:28,358
But these days we know that it's for the immune system

1546
01:58:28,358 --> 01:58:29,523
and it's very, very important.

1547
01:58:29,523 --> 01:58:33,617
So, you know, it's important to understand that just because

1548
01:58:33,617 --> 01:58:36,873
the majority believe something doesn't mean that it's true.

1549
01:58:37,150 --> 01:58:39,778
And then, I'm sorry, I missed the last part of the question there.

1550
01:58:40,947 --> 01:58:43,698
Moderator: What was the--let me make sure I have the right question here--

1551
01:58:44,468 --> 01:58:47,180
So what evidence besides the literal word of the bible--

1552
01:58:47,518 --> 01:58:51,004
Ken Ham: Okay, one of the things I was doing was making predictions.


1553
01:58:51,004 --> 01:58:53,300
I made some predictions. There's a whole list of predictions.

1554
01:58:53,577 --> 01:58:56,673
And I was saying, if the Bible's right and we're all descendants

1555
01:58:56,673 --> 01:58:59,457
of Adam and Eve, there's one race. And I went through and talked about that.

1556
01:59:00,180 --> 01:59:02,537
If the Bible's right and God made kinds, I went through

1557
01:59:02,537 --> 01:59:06,597
and talked about that. And, so, really that question comes down

1558
01:59:06,597 --> 01:59:09,572
to the fact that we're again dealing with the fact that there's aspects

1559
01:59:09,572 --> 01:59:12,259
about the past that you can't scientifically prove because

1560
01:59:12,259 --> 01:59:14,645
you weren't there, but observational science in the present.

1561
01:59:14,753 --> 01:59:18,246
Bill and I all have the same observational science. We're here in the present.

1562
01:59:18,246 --> 01:59:21,714
We can see radioactivity, but when it comes to then talking about the past,

1563
01:59:21,714 --> 01:59:23,896
you're not going to be scientifically able to prove that.

1564
01:59:23,896 --> 01:59:28,340
And that's what we need to admit. We can be great scientists in the present,

1565
01:59:28,340 --> 01:59:32,774
as the examples I gave you of Dr. Damadian or Dr. Stuart Burgess

1566
01:59:32,774 --> 01:59:36,567
or Dr. Fabich and we can be investigating the present.

1567
01:59:36,890 --> 01:59:38,800
Understanding the past is a whole different matter.

1568
01:59:39,292 --> 01:59:40,592
Moderator: Mr. Nye, one minute response.

1569
01:59:41,299 --> 01:59:45,824
Thank you, Mr. Ham. I have to disabuse you of a fundamental idea.

1570
01:59:46,486 --> 01:59:51,819
If a scientist, if anybody, makes a discovery that changes

1571
01:59:52,065 --> 01:59:56,413
the way people view natural law, scientists embrace him or her!

1572
01:59:57,075 --> 02:00:01,069
This person's fantastic. Louis Pasteur--you made reference to germs.

1573
02:00:01,069 --> 02:00:07,053
Now, if you find something that changes, that disagrees with common thought,

1574
02:00:07,053 --> 02:00:08,939
that's the greatest thing going in science.

1575
02:00:08,939 --> 02:00:12,095
We look forward to that change. We challenge you--

1576
02:00:12,095 --> 02:00:15,003
tell us why the universe is accelerating.

1577
02:00:15,003 --> 02:00:18,245
Tell us why these mothers were getting sick.

1578
02:00:18,245 --> 02:00:24,724
And we found an explanation for it. And the idea that the majority

1579
02:00:25,170 --> 02:00:28,283
has sway in science is true only up a point.

1580
02:00:28,283 --> 02:00:30,511
And then, the other thing I just want to point out, what you may

1581
02:00:30,511 --> 02:00:34,459
have missed in evolutionary explanations of life

1582
02:00:34,459 --> 02:00:37,515
is it's the mechanism by which we add complexity.

1583
02:00:37,868 --> 02:00:40,663
The earth is getting energy from the sun all the time.

1584
02:00:40,863 --> 02:00:44,871
And that energy is used to make lifeforms somewhat more complex.

1585
02:00:44,871 --> 02:00:45,627
Moderator: And that's time.

1586
02:00:46,519 --> 02:00:47,572
New question for you, Mr. Nye.

1587
02:00:48,156 --> 02:00:51,121
How did consciousness come from matter?

1588
02:00:51,829 --> 02:00:55,064
Bill Nye: Don't know. This is a great mystery.

1589
02:00:55,895 --> 02:01:02,537
A dear friend of mine is a neurologist. She studies the nature of consciousness.

1590
02:01:03,137 --> 02:01:09,724
Now I will say I used to embrace a joke about dogs.

1591
02:01:10,016 --> 02:01:11,464
I love dogs. I mean, who doesn't?

1592
02:01:12,249 --> 02:01:15,080
And you can say, this guy remarked,

1593
02:01:15,080 --> 02:01:19,933
"I've never seen a dog paralyzed by self-doubt." Actually, I have.

1594
02:01:20,886 --> 02:01:27,672
Furthermore, the thing that we celebrate, there are three sundials

1595
02:01:27,672 --> 02:01:30,498
on the planet Mars that bare an inscription to the future:

1596
02:01:30,975 --> 02:01:35,108
"To those who visit here, we wish you a safe journey and the joy of discovery."

1597
02:01:35,108 --> 02:01:38,211
It's inherently optimistic about the future of humankind,

1598
02:01:38,211 --> 02:01:41,945
that we will one day walk on Mars. But the joy of discovery...

1599
02:01:42,606 --> 02:01:46,566
that's what drives us. The joy of finding out what's going on.

1600
02:01:46,566 --> 02:01:50,071
So we don't know where consciousness comes from. But we want to find out.

1601
02:01:50,071 --> 02:01:54,388
Furthermore, I'll tell you it's deep within us. I claim that I

1602
02:01:54,388 --> 02:01:57,696
have spent time with dogs that have had the joy of discovery!

1603
02:01:58,311 --> 02:02:03,094
It's way inside us! We have one ancestor, as near as we can figure.

1604
02:02:03,094 --> 02:02:08,005
And, by the way, if you can find what we in science call "a second genesis",

1605
02:02:08,343 --> 02:02:11,684
this is to say, "Did life start another way on the earth?"

1606
02:02:11,991 --> 02:02:14,976
There are researchers at Astrobiology Institute,

1607
02:02:14,976 --> 02:02:17,441
researchers supported by NASA, your tax dollars,

1608
02:02:17,764 --> 02:02:19,898
that are looking for answers to that very question.

1609
02:02:19,898 --> 02:02:21,636
Is it possible that life could start another way?

1610
02:02:22,375 --> 02:02:26,025
Is there some sort of life form akin to science fiction

1611
02:02:26,025 --> 02:02:29,882
that's crystal instead of membranous. This would be a fantastic

1612
02:02:29,882 --> 02:02:31,861
discovery that would change the world!

1613
02:02:32,153 --> 02:02:35,640
The nature of consciousness is a mystery.

1614
02:02:35,640 --> 02:02:39,595
I challenge the young people here to investigate that very question.

1615
02:02:40,148 --> 02:02:43,820
And I remind you--taxpayers and voters that might be watching--

1616
02:02:44,528 --> 02:02:46,914
if we do not embrace the process of science,

1617
02:02:46,914 --> 02:02:50,647
and I mean in the mainstream, we will fall behind economically.

1618
02:02:50,647 --> 02:02:52,986
This is a point I can't say enough.

1619
02:02:52,986 --> 02:02:55,775
Moderator: Mr. Ham, a one minute response.

1620
02:02:55,775 --> 02:03:00,088
Ken Ham: Bill, I do want to say that there is a book out there... (audience laughs)

1621
02:03:00,088 --> 02:03:04,118
that does document where consciousness came from.

1622
02:03:04,118 --> 02:03:08,830
And in that book, the one who created us said that he made man in His image,

1623
02:03:08,830 --> 02:03:13,173
and He breathed into man, and he became a living being.

1624
02:03:13,173 --> 02:03:18,896
And so, the Bible does document that. That's where consciousness came from,

1625
02:03:18,896 --> 02:03:22,679
that God gave it to us. And, you know, the other thing I want to say is,

1626
02:03:22,679 --> 02:03:28,222
I'm sorta of a little, I have a mystery. That is, you talk about the joy of discovery

1627
02:03:28,222 --> 02:03:31,032
but you also say that when you die, it's over, and that's the end of you.

1628
02:03:31,032 --> 02:03:37,404
And if when you die, it's over, and you don't even remember you were here, what's the point of the joy of discovery anyway?

1629
02:03:37,457 --> 02:03:42,621
I mean, in an ultimate sense? I mean, you know, you won't ever know you were ever here,

1630
02:03:42,621 --> 02:03:47,406
and no one who knew you will know they were ever here, ultimately, so what's the point anyway?

1631
02:03:47,406 --> 02:03:51,929
I love the joy of discovery because this is God's creation,

1632
02:03:51,929 --> 02:03:57,032
and I'm finding more out about that to take dominion for man's good and for God's glory.

1633
02:03:57,032 --> 02:04:00,557
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham, a new question.

1634
02:04:00,557 --> 02:04:06,894
This is a simple question, I suppose, but one that actually is fairly profound for all of us, in our lives.

1635
02:04:06,894 --> 02:04:11,122
What, if anything, would ever change your mind?

1636
02:04:11,122 --> 02:04:19,214
Ken Ham: Hmm. Well, the answer to that question is,

1637
02:04:19,214 --> 02:04:27,485
I'm a Christian, and as a Christian, I can't prove it to you,

1638
02:04:27,485 --> 02:04:32,528
but God has definitely, shown me very clearly

1639
02:04:32,528 --> 02:04:39,162
through His Word, and shown Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.

1640
02:04:39,162 --> 02:04:43,749
The Bible is the Word of God. I admit that that's where I start from.

1641
02:04:43,749 --> 02:04:46,695
I can challenge people that you can go and test that.

1642
02:04:46,695 --> 02:04:50,271
You can make predictions based on that. You can check the prophecies in the Bible.

1643
02:04:50,271 --> 02:04:55,217
You can check the statements in Genesis. You can check that.

1644
02:04:55,217 --> 02:04:59,724
I did a little bit of that tonight. And I can't ultimately prove that to you.

1645
02:04:59,724 --> 02:05:05,675
All I can do is to say to someone, "Look, if the Bible really is what it claims to be,

1646
02:05:05,675 --> 02:05:09,310
if it really is the Word of God, and that's what it claims, then check it out."

1647
02:05:09,310 --> 02:05:13,402
And the Bible says, "If you come to God believing that He is, He'll reveal Himself to you."

1648
02:05:13,402 --> 02:05:16,754
And you will know. As Christians, we can say we know.

1649
02:05:16,754 --> 02:05:22,462
And so, as far as the Word of God is concerned, no, no one's ever going to convince me

1650
02:05:22,462 --> 02:05:29,030
that the Word of God is not true. But I do want to make a distinction here.

1651
02:05:29,030 --> 02:05:33,182
And for Bill's sake. We build models based upon the Bible.

1652
02:05:33,182 --> 02:05:36,366
And those models are always subject to change.

1653
02:05:36,411 --> 02:05:39,122
The fact of Noah's flood is not subject to change.

1654
02:05:39,122 --> 02:05:42,370
The model of how the flood occurred is subject to change

1655
02:05:42,370 --> 02:05:45,315
because we observe in the current world,

1656
02:05:45,315 --> 02:05:49,766
and we're able to come up with different ways this could have happened or that could have happened.

1657
02:05:49,766 --> 02:05:54,127
And that's part of that scientific discovery. That's part of what it's all about.

1658
02:05:54,127 --> 02:05:59,048
So, the bottom line is that as a Christian, I have a foundation.

1659
02:05:59,048 --> 02:06:03,847
That as a Christian, I would ask Bill a question. What would change your mind?

1660
02:06:03,847 --> 02:06:08,584
I mean, you said, even if you came to faith, you'd never give up believing in billions of years.

1661
02:06:08,584 --> 02:06:13,340
I think I quoted you correctly. You said something like that recently.

1662
02:06:13,340 --> 02:06:15,670
So that would be also my question to Bill.

1663
02:06:15,670 --> 02:06:17,833
Moderator: Time. Mr. Nye?

1664
02:06:17,833 --> 02:06:20,349
Bill Nye: We would just need one piece of evidence.

1665
02:06:20,349 --> 02:06:22,483
We would need the fossil that swam from one layer to another.

1666
02:06:22,483 --> 02:06:25,952
We would need evidence that the universe is not expanding.

1667
02:06:25,952 --> 02:06:29,233
We would need evidence that the stars appear to be far away, but in fact, they're not.

1668
02:06:29,233 --> 02:06:34,586
We would need evidence that rock layers can somehow form

1669
02:06:34,586 --> 02:06:36,607
in just 4,000 years instead of the extraordinary amount.

1670
02:06:36,607 --> 02:06:43,645
We would need evidence that somehow you can reset atomic clocks and keep neutrons from becoming protons.

1671
02:06:43,645 --> 02:06:48,721
You bring on any of those things and you would change me immediately.

1672
02:06:48,721 --> 02:06:51,914
The question I have for you though, fundamentally,

1673
02:06:51,914 --> 02:06:56,605
and for everybody watching. Mr. Ham, what can you prove?

1674
02:06:56,605 --> 02:07:00,435
What you have done tonight is spent most of the, all of the time

1675
02:07:00,443 --> 02:07:05,986
coming up with explanations about the past. What can you really predict?

1676
02:07:06,002 --> 02:07:09,216
What can you really prove in a conventional scientific,

1677
02:07:09,216 --> 02:07:14,584
or a conventional, "I have an idea that makes a prediction and it comes out the way I see it?"

1678
02:07:14,584 --> 02:07:17,099
This is very troubling to me.

1679
02:07:17,130 --> 02:07:21,636
Moderator: Mr. Nye, a new question. Outside of radiometric methods,

1680
02:07:21,636 --> 02:07:26,680
what scientific evidence supports your view of the age of the Earth?

1681
02:07:26,680 --> 02:07:31,970
Bill Nye: The age of the earth.. Well, the age of stars.

1682
02:07:31,970 --> 02:07:37,749
The... let's see... radiometric evidence is pretty compelling.

1683
02:07:37,749 --> 02:07:45,886
Also, the deposition rates. It was, it was, Lillel, a geologist,

1684
02:07:45,886 --> 02:07:51,997
who realized, my recollection, he came up with the first use of the term "deep time,"

1685
02:07:51,997 --> 02:07:57,672
when people realized that the Earth had to be much, much older.

1686
02:07:57,672 --> 02:08:04,838
In a related story, there was a mystery as to how the Earth could be old enough to allow evolution to have taken place.

1687
02:08:04,838 --> 02:08:08,506
How could the Earth possibly be three billion years old?

1688
02:08:08,506 --> 02:08:12,397
Lord Kelvin did a calculation, if the sun were made of coal, and burning,

1689
02:08:12,412 --> 02:08:15,842
it couldn't be more than 100,000 or so years old.

1690
02:08:15,842 --> 02:08:23,117
But radioactivity was discovered. Radioactivity is why the Earth is still as warm as it is.

1691
02:08:23,117 --> 02:08:29,469
It's why the Earth has been able to sustain its internal heat all these millenia.

1692
02:08:29,469 --> 02:08:33,729
And this discovery, it's something like, this question, without radiometric dating,

1693
02:08:33,729 --> 02:08:35,981
how would you view the age of the Earth,

1694
02:08:35,981 --> 02:08:43,164
to me, it's akin to the expression, "Well, if things were any other way, things would be different."

1695
02:08:43,179 --> 02:08:52,015
This is to say, that's not how the world is. Radiometric dating DOES exist. Neutrons DO become protons.

1696
02:08:52,015 --> 02:08:55,576
And that's our level of understanding today. The universe is accelerating.

1697
02:08:55,576 --> 02:09:02,864
These are all provable facts. That there was a flood 4.000 years ago, is not provable.

1698
02:09:02,864 --> 02:09:08,901
In fact, the evidence for me, at least, as a reasonable man, is overwhelming that it couldn't possibly have happened.

1699
02:09:08,901 --> 02:09:18,833
There's no evidence for it. Furthermore, Mr. Ham, you never quite addressed this issue of the skulls.

1700
02:09:18,833 --> 02:09:27,985
There are many, many steps in what appears to be the creation, or the coming into being of you and me.

1701
02:09:27,985 --> 02:09:31,776
And those steps, are consistent with evolutionary theory.

1702
02:09:31,776 --> 02:09:34,651
Moderator: And that is time. Mr. Ham, your response.

1703
02:09:34,651 --> 02:09:37,642
Ken Ham: By the way, I just want people to understand, too,

1704
02:09:37,642 --> 02:09:40,717
in regard to the age of the Earth being about four and a half billion years,

1705
02:09:40,717 --> 02:09:44,638
no Earth rock was dated to get that date. They dated meteorites,

1706
02:09:44,638 --> 02:09:47,513
and because they assumed meteorites were the same age as the Earth,

1707
02:09:47,513 --> 02:09:51,153
leftover from the formation of the solar system, that's where that comes from.

1708
02:09:51,153 --> 02:09:54,675
People think they dated rocks on the Earth to get the four and a half billion years. That's just not true.

1709
02:09:54,675 --> 02:09:58,605
And the other point that I was making, and I just put this slide back up,

1710
02:09:58,605 --> 02:10:01,021
cause I happened to just have it here. And that is,

1711
02:10:01,037 --> 02:10:05,066
I said at the end of my first rebuttal time, that there are hundreds of physical processes

1712
02:10:05,066 --> 02:10:07,572
that set limits on the age of the Earth. Here's the point.

1713
02:10:07,610 --> 02:10:13,024
Every dating method involves a change with time. And there are hundreds of them.

1714
02:10:13,024 --> 02:10:17,999
And, if you assume what was there to start with, and you assume something about the rate,

1715
02:10:17,999 --> 02:10:22,621
and you know about the rate, you make lots of those assumptions. Every dating method has those assumptions.

1716
02:10:22,652 --> 02:10:25,936
Most of the dating methods, 90% of them, contradict the billions of years.

1717
02:10:25,936 --> 02:10:35,866
There's no absolute age dating method from scientific method because you can't prove scientifically, young or old.

1718
02:10:35,866 --> 02:10:39,158
Moderator: And, here is a new question.