0:12:43.881,0:12:46.111
Oh, hi kids! I have an incredible message for you.

0:12:46.111,0:12:48.715
Hey, can someone take Germa back to the petting zoo?

0:12:48.715,0:12:50.670
Wow! That looks like fun.

0:12:50.670,0:12:52.456
Now, where was I? Oh, yes.

0:12:52.456,0:12:55.315
In 2014, kids 12 and under come free.

0:12:55.315,0:12:57.785
Hey! Shouldn't the comets be in the Planetarium?

0:12:57.785,0:13:01.042
For the entire year, kids 12 and under come free.

0:13:01.042,0:13:04.123
Hey, T-Rex! You'd better get back to the dinosaur den.

0:13:04.123,0:13:06.819
As you can see, it's a very exciting place.

0:13:06.819,0:13:07.982
Now tell your parents!

0:13:07.982,0:13:11.650
Kids 12 and under free in 2014 when accompanied by a paying adult.

0:13:11.650,0:13:13.259
We hope to see you soon!

0:13:14.474,0:13:17.511
Good evening. I'm pleased to welcome you to Legacy Hall

0:13:17.511,0:13:20.252
of the Creation Museum in Northern Kentucky

0:13:20.252,0:13:23.083
in the metropolitan area of Cincinnati.

0:13:23.083,0:13:26.013
I'm Tom Foreman from CNN and I'm pleased to be tonight's

0:13:26.013,0:13:30.201
moderator for this Evolution versus Creation debate.

0:13:30.201,0:13:32.989
This is a very old question! Where did we come from?

0:13:34.219,0:13:36.758
My answer is from Washington this morning by airplane.

0:13:36.758,0:13:38.988
(laughter from audience)

0:13:38.988,0:13:42.797
But there is a much more profound, longer answer

0:13:42.797,0:13:44.979
that people have sought after for a long time.

0:13:44.979,0:13:47.882
So tonight's question to be debated is the following:

0:13:47.882,0:13:55.171
Is Creation a viable model of origins in today's modern, scientific era?

0:13:55.171,0:13:58.009
Our welcome extends to hundreds of thousands of people

0:13:58.009,0:14:01.841
who are watching on the internet at debatelive.org.

0:14:01.841,0:14:02.938
We're glad you have joined us.

0:14:02.938,0:14:05.047
Of course, your auditorium here,

0:14:05.047,0:14:06.418
all of the folks who've joined us as well.

0:14:06.418,0:14:09.988
We're joined by 70 media representatives from many

0:14:09.988,0:14:11.668
of the world's great news organizations.

0:14:11.668,0:14:13.589
We're glad to have them here as well.

0:14:13.589,0:14:17.980
And now let's welcome our debaters: Mr. Bill Nye and Mr. Ken Ham.

0:14:17.980,0:14:20.885
(audience applauds)

0:14:48.031,0:14:50.199
We had a coin toss earlier to determine

0:14:50.199,0:14:52.241
who would go first of these two men.

0:14:52.241,0:14:54.372
The only thing missing was Joe Namath in a fur coat.

0:14:54.372,0:14:59.112
But it went very well. Mr. Ham won the coin toss

0:14:59.112,0:15:04.032
and he opted to speak first. But first, let me tell you

0:15:04.032,0:15:05.695
a little bit about both of these gentlemen.

0:15:05.695,0:15:08.178
Mr. Nye's website describes him as a scientist,

0:15:08.178,0:15:10.480
engineer, comedian, author, and inventor.

0:15:10.480,0:15:14.154
Mr Nye, as you may know, produced a number of award-winning TV shows,

0:15:14.154,0:15:16.752
including a program he became so well-known for:

0:15:16.752,0:15:19.148
Bill Nye the Science Guy.

0:15:19.148,0:15:21.920
While working on the Science Guy show, Mr. Nye won

0:15:21.920,0:15:24.694
seven national Emmy awards for writing, performing,

0:15:24.694,0:15:28.647
and producing the show. Won 18 Emmys in five years!

0:15:28.647,0:15:32.752
In between creating the shows, he wrote five kids books about science,

0:15:32.752,0:15:36.918
including his latest title, <i>Bill Nye's Great Big Book of Tiny Germs</i>.

0:15:36.918,0:15:40.449
Billy Nye is the host of three television series:

0:15:40.449,0:15:42.748
his program, "The 100 Greatest Discoveries"--

0:15:42.748,0:15:44.916
it airs on the Science Channel. "The Eyes of Nye"--

0:15:44.916,0:15:48.278
airs on PBS stations across the country. He frequenly appears

0:15:48.278,0:15:51.281
on interview programs to discuss a variety of science topics.

0:15:51.281,0:15:55.280
Mr. Nye serves as Executive Director of the Planetary Society,

0:15:55.280,0:15:57.700
the world's largest space interest group.

0:15:57.700,0:16:00.528
He is a graduate of Cornell, with a Bachelors

0:16:00.528,0:16:03.189
of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering.

0:16:03.189,0:16:07.852
Mr. Ken Ham is the president and co-founder of Answers in Genesis,

0:16:07.852,0:16:10.982
a bible-defending organization that upholds the authority

0:16:10.982,0:16:12.858
of the scriptures from the very first verse.

0:16:12.858,0:16:16.778
Mr. Ham is the man behind the popular, high-tech

0:16:16.778,0:16:18.833
Creation Museum, where we're holding this debate.

0:16:18.833,0:16:21.329
The museum has had 2 million visitors in six years

0:16:21.329,0:16:23.293
and has attracted much of the world's media.

0:16:23.293,0:16:26.054
The Answers in Genesis website, as well, trafficked

0:16:26.054,0:16:29.165
with 2 million visitors alone last month. Mr. Ham is also

0:16:29.165,0:16:32.578
a best-selling author, a much in-demand speaker,

0:16:32.578,0:16:36.949
and the host of a daily radio feature carried on 700 plus stations.

0:16:36.949,0:16:40.891
This is his second public debate on Evolution and Creation.

0:16:40.891,0:16:43.852
The first was at Harvard, in the 1990s.

0:16:43.852,0:16:46.521
Mr. Ham is a native of Australia. He earned

0:16:46.521,0:16:48.993
a Bachelors degree in Applied Science, with an emphasis in

0:16:48.993,0:16:52.613
Environmental Biology, from the Queensland's Institute of Technology,

0:16:52.613,0:16:55.833
as well as a Diploma of Education at the University

0:16:55.833,0:16:59.240
of Queensland in Brisbon, Australia.

0:16:59.240,0:17:02.621
And now...Mr. Ham, you opted to go first, so you will

0:17:02.621,0:17:05.575
be first with your five minute opening statement.

0:17:08.882,0:17:11.120
Well, good evening. I know that not everyone watching

0:17:11.120,0:17:14.442
this debate will necessarily agree with what I have to say,

0:17:14.442,0:17:17.610
but I'm an Aussie and live over here in America

0:17:17.610,0:17:20.120
and they tell me I have an accent and so it doesn't matter

0:17:20.120,0:17:23.614
what I say, some people tell me. We just like to hear you saying it. (laughter)

0:17:23.614,0:17:26.671
So...um...I hope you enjoy me saying it anyway.

0:17:26.671,0:17:29.082
Well, the debate topic is this: Is Creation

0:17:29.082,0:17:32.956
a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era?

0:17:32.956,0:17:35.583
You know, when this was first announced on the internet,

0:17:35.583,0:17:37.550
there were lots of statements-- like this one

0:17:37.550,0:17:39.503
from the Richard Dawkins Foundation.

0:17:39.503,0:17:42.088
"Scientists should not debate Creationists. Period."

0:17:42.088,0:17:45.666
And this one from one of the Discovery.com websites.

0:17:45.666,0:17:47.955
"Should Scientists Debate Creationists?"

0:17:47.955,0:17:50.390
You know, right here I believe there's a gross misrepresentation

0:17:50.390,0:17:55.001
in our culture. We're seeing people being indoctrinated

0:17:55.001,0:17:57.620
to believe that Creationists can't be Scientists.

0:17:57.620,0:18:01.503
I believe it's all a part of secularists hi-jacking the word "Science".

0:18:01.503,0:18:05.497
I want you to meet a modern-day scientist who's a Biblical Creationist.

0:18:05.497,0:18:07.377
My name is Stuart Burgess.

0:18:07.377,0:18:11.613
I'm a professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in the U.K.

0:18:20.471,0:18:24.042
I have published over 130 scientific papers on

0:18:24.042,0:18:28.046
the science of design in Engineering and Biological systems.

0:18:28.209,0:18:31.772
From my research work, I have found that the scientific evidence

0:18:31.772,0:18:35.974
fully supports Creationism as the best explanation to origins.

0:18:37.235,0:18:39.938
I've also designed major parts of spacecrafts,

0:18:39.938,0:18:41.829
launched by ESA and NASA.

0:18:41.829,0:18:43.796
So here's a biblical Creationist,

0:18:43.796,0:18:46.206
who's a scientist, who's also an inventor.

0:18:46.206,0:18:48.672
And I want young people to understand that.

0:18:48.672,0:18:51.932
You know, the problem, I believe, is this: we need to define terms correctly.

0:18:51.932,0:18:55.999
We need to define Creation/Evolution in regard to origins

0:18:55.999,0:18:58.884
and we need to define science. And in this opening statement,

0:18:58.884,0:19:01.598
I want to concentrate on dealing with the word "science".

0:19:01.598,0:19:05.216
I believe the word "science" has been hijacked by secularists.

0:19:05.216,0:19:06.553
Now, what is science?

0:19:06.553,0:19:09.942
Well, the origin of the word comes from the Classical Latin "scientia",

0:19:09.942,0:19:12.387
which means "to know". And if you look up a dictionary,

0:19:12.387,0:19:14.906
it'll say science means "the state of knowing, knowledge".

0:19:14.906,0:19:17.002
But there's different types of knowledge and I believe

0:19:17.002,0:19:18.459
this is where the confusion lies.

0:19:18.459,0:19:21.699
There's experimental or observational sciences, as we call it.

0:19:21.699,0:19:24.396
That's using the scientific method, observation,

0:19:24.396,0:19:27.498
measurement, experiment, testing. That's what produces

0:19:27.498,0:19:30.065
our technology, computers, spacecraft, jet planes,

0:19:30.065,0:19:35.190
smoke detectors, looking at DNA, antibiotics, medicines and vaccines.

0:19:35.190,0:19:39.161
You see, all scientists, whether Creationists or Evolutionists,

0:19:39.161,0:19:43.608
actually have the same observational or experimental science.

0:19:43.608,0:19:46.228
And it doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist,

0:19:46.228,0:19:47.507
you can be a great scientist.

0:19:47.507,0:19:49.694
For instance, here's an atheist, who is a great scientist--

0:19:49.694,0:19:52.700
Craig Venter, one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome.

0:19:52.700,0:19:57.118
Or Dr. Raymond Damadian. He is a man who invented

0:19:57.118,0:20:01.232
the MRI scan and revolutionized medicine. He's a biblical Creationist.

0:20:01.232,0:20:03.668
But I want us to also understand molecules-to-man

0:20:03.668,0:20:07.062
evolution belief has nothing to do with developing technology.

0:20:07.062,0:20:11.168
You see, when we're talking about origins, we're talking about the past.

0:20:11.168,0:20:13.669
We're talking about our origins. We weren't there.

0:20:13.669,0:20:16.719
You can't observe that, whether it's molecules-to-man evolution,

0:20:16.719,0:20:18.497
or whether it's a creation account.

0:20:18.497,0:20:20.307
I mean, you're talking about the past.

0:20:20.307,0:20:23.137
We'd like to call that Origins or Historical Science,

0:20:23.137,0:20:25.338
knowledge concerning the past. Here at the Creation Museum,

0:20:25.338,0:20:29.639
we make no apology about the fact that our Origins or Historical science

0:20:29.639,0:20:33.218
actually is based upon the biblical account of origins.

0:20:33.218,0:20:36.551
Now, when you research science textbooks being used

0:20:36.551,0:20:39.000
in public schools, what we found is this:

0:20:39.000,0:20:42.226
by and large, the Origins or Historical Science

0:20:42.226,0:20:46.059
is based upon man's ideas about the past--for instance, the ideas of Darwin.

0:20:46.059,0:20:49.310
And our research has found that public school textbooks

0:20:49.310,0:20:53.267
are using the same word "science" for Observational Science

0:20:53.267,0:20:56.504
and Historical Science. They arbitrarily define science

0:20:56.504,0:20:59.197
as naturalism and outlaw the supernatural.

0:20:59.197,0:21:01.975
They present molecules-to-man evolution as fact.

0:21:01.975,0:21:04.004
They are imposing, I believe, the religion

0:21:04.004,0:21:06.507
of naturalism or atheism on generations of students.

0:21:06.507,0:21:09.888
You see, I assert that the word "science" has been hijacked

0:21:09.888,0:21:13.140
by secularists in teaching evolution to force the religion

0:21:13.140,0:21:15.432
of naturalism on generations of kids.

0:21:15.432,0:21:18.600
Secular evolutionists teach that all life developed

0:21:18.600,0:21:20.656
by natural processes from some primordial form.

0:21:20.656,0:21:23.805
That man is just an evolved animal, which has great bearing

0:21:23.805,0:21:25.413
on how we view life and death.

0:21:25.413,0:21:28.600
For instance, as Bill states, "It's very hard to accept,

0:21:28.600,0:21:31.727
for many of us, that when you die, it's over."

0:21:31.727,0:21:34.835
But, you see, the Bible gives a totally different account of origins,

0:21:34.835,0:21:38.242
of who we are, where we came from, the meaning of life, and our future.

0:21:38.242,0:21:41.750
That through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin.

0:21:41.750,0:21:44.872
But that God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son.

0:21:44.872,0:21:48.704
Whoever believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life.

0:21:48.704,0:21:53.571
So is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era?

0:21:53.571,0:21:56.253
I say the creation/evolution debate is a conflict

0:21:56.253,0:21:59.417
between two philosophical worldviews based on two different accounts

0:21:59.417,0:22:02.322
of origins or science beliefs and creation

0:22:02.322,0:22:05.572
is the only viable model of historical science confirmed

0:22:05.572,0:22:09.239
by observational science in today's modern scientific era.

0:22:10.239,0:22:14.409
And that is time. I had the unenviable job of being the time-keeper here.

0:22:15.393,0:22:17.240
So I'm like the referee in football that you don't like,

0:22:17.240,0:22:20.129
but I will periodically, if either one of our debaters

0:22:20.129,0:22:24.275
runs over on anything, I will stop them in the name of keeping it fair for all.

0:22:24.275,0:22:26.905
Uh, Mr. Ham, thank you for your comments. Now it's Mr. Nye's

0:22:26.905,0:22:29.329
turn for a five minute opening statement. Mr. Nye.

0:22:29.329,0:22:32.016
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

0:22:32.016,0:22:36.129
I very much appreciate you including me in your, uh, facility here.

0:22:36.129,0:22:40.069
Now, looking around the room I think I see just one bow tie.

0:22:40.069,0:22:43.743
Is that right? Just one. And I'm telling you, once you try it--

0:22:43.743,0:22:47.339
oh, there's yes, two! That's great. I started wearing bow ties

0:22:47.339,0:22:49.921
when I was young, in high school.

0:22:49.921,0:22:52.361
My father showed me how. His father showed him.

0:22:52.361,0:22:58.343
And there's a story associated with this, which I find remarkable.

0:22:58.343,0:23:03.725
My grandfather was in the rotary, and he attended

0:23:03.725,0:23:07.062
a convention in Philadelphia, and even in those days,

0:23:07.062,0:23:10.698
at the turn of the last century, people rented tuxedos.

0:23:10.698,0:23:14.643
And the tuxedo came with a bow tie--untied bow tie.

0:23:14.643,0:23:16.725
So he didn't know how to tie it.

0:23:16.725,0:23:19.934
So...wasn't sure what to do, but he just took a chance.

0:23:19.934,0:23:23.708
He went to the hotel room next door, knocked on the door,

0:23:23.708,0:23:25.864
"Excuse me? Can you help me tie my tie?"

0:23:25.864,0:23:28.931
And the guy said, "Sure. Lie down on the bed."

0:23:31.315,0:23:34.899
So...my grandfather wanted to have the tie on,

0:23:34.899,0:23:38.426
wasn't sure what he was getting into, so he's said

0:23:38.426,0:23:42.497
to have lain on the bed and the guy tied a perfect bow tie knot and,

0:23:42.497,0:23:44.372
quite reasonably, my grandfather said,

0:23:44.372,0:23:48.036
"Thank you. Why'd I have to lie down on the bed?"

0:23:48.036,0:23:49.702
The guy said, "I'm an undertaker."

0:23:49.702,0:23:51.699
(audience laughs)

0:23:51.699,0:23:54.035
"It's the only way I know how to do it."

0:23:54.035,0:23:57.475
Now that story was presented to me as a true story.

0:23:58.598,0:24:01.499
It may or may not be. But it gives you something to think about.

0:24:01.499,0:24:04.115
And it's certainly something to remember.

0:24:04.115,0:24:06.830
So, here tonight, we're gonna have two stories

0:24:06.830,0:24:12.397
and we can compare Mr. Ham's story to the story

0:24:12.397,0:24:16.035
from what I will call the outside, from mainstream science.

0:24:16.035,0:24:20.897
The question tonight is: Does Ken Ham's Creation Model hold up?

0:24:20.897,0:24:22.637
Is it "viable"?

0:24:22.637,0:24:26.209
So let me ask you all: what would you be doing if you weren't here tonight?

0:24:27.301,0:24:29.718
That's right, you'd be home watching CSI.

0:24:30.887,0:24:35.237
CSI Petersburg. Is that coming--I think it's coming.

0:24:36.959,0:24:40.897
And on CSI, there is no distinction made between

0:24:40.897,0:24:43.687
historical science and observational science.

0:24:43.687,0:24:46.769
These are constructs unique to Mr. Ham.

0:24:46.769,0:24:50.019
We don't normally have these anywhere in the world except here.

0:24:50.019,0:24:53.685
Natural laws that applied in the past apply now.

0:24:53.685,0:24:56.600
That's why they're natural laws. That's why we embrace them.

0:24:56.600,0:24:58.906
That's how we made all these discoveries

0:24:58.906,0:25:01.431
that enabled all this remarkable technology.

0:25:01.431,0:25:05.174
So CSI is a fictional show, but it's based absolutely

0:25:05.174,0:25:07.152
on real people doing real work.

0:25:07.152,0:25:09.771
When you go to a crime scene and find evidence,

0:25:09.771,0:25:13.133
you have clues about the past. And you trust those clues

0:25:13.133,0:25:16.342
and you embrace them and you move forward to convict somebody.

0:25:16.342,0:25:20.129
Mr. Ham and his followers have this remarkable view

0:25:20.129,0:25:26.565
of a worldwide flood that somehow influenced everything that we observe in nature.

0:25:26.565,0:25:32.931
A 500 foot wooden boat, eight zookeepers for 14,000 individual animals,

0:25:32.931,0:25:37.124
every land plant in the world underwater for a full year?

0:25:37.124,0:25:40.066
I ask us all: is that really reasonable?

0:25:40.835,0:25:43.433
You'll hear a lot about the Grand Canyon, I imagine, also,

0:25:43.433,0:25:46.396
which is a remarkable place and it has fossils.

0:25:46.396,0:25:50.473
And the fossils in the Grand Canyon are found in layers.

0:25:51.134,0:25:53.807
There's not a single place in the Grand Canyon

0:25:53.807,0:25:56.731
where the fossils of one type of animal cross over

0:25:56.731,0:25:59.196
into the fossils of another. In other words,

0:25:59.196,0:26:02.565
when there was a big flood on the earth, you would expect

0:26:02.565,0:26:05.833
drowning animals to swim up to a higher level.

0:26:05.833,0:26:09.362
Not any one of them did. Not a single one.

0:26:09.362,0:26:13.400
If you could find evidence of that, my friends, you could change the world.

0:26:14.600,0:26:16.762
Now, I just wanna remind us all:

0:26:17.608,0:26:22.045
there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious,

0:26:22.045,0:26:27.000
who get enriched, who have a wonderful sense of community from their religion.

0:26:27.000,0:26:31.250
They worship together, they eat together, they live

0:26:31.250,0:26:34.586
in their communities and enjoy each others company. Billions of people.

0:26:34.586,0:26:39.001
But these same people do not embrace the extraordinary view

0:26:39.001,0:26:43.667
that the earth is somehow only 6,000 years old. That is unique.

0:26:43.667,0:26:48.756
And here's my concern: what keeps the United States ahead,

0:26:48.756,0:26:53.251
what makes the United States a world leader, is our technology,

0:26:53.251,0:26:58.669
our new ideas, our innovations. If we continue to eschew science,

0:26:58.669,0:27:02.587
eschew the process and try to divide science

0:27:02.587,0:27:05.800
into observational science and historic science,

0:27:05.800,0:27:09.419
we are not gonna move forward. We will not embrace natural laws.

0:27:09.419,0:27:14.667
We will not make discoveries. We will not invent and innovate and stay ahead.

0:27:14.667,0:27:19.940
So if you ask me if Ken Ham's Creation model is viable, I say no.

0:27:19.940,0:27:24.533
It is absolutely not viable. So stay with us over the next period

0:27:24.533,0:27:28.337
and you can compare my evidence to his. Thank you all very much.

0:27:28.337,0:27:30.385
(audience applauds)

0:27:30.385,0:27:31.785
(moderator) All right.

0:27:33.900,0:27:35.099
Very nice start by both of our debaters here.

0:27:35.099,0:27:37.706
And now each of one will offer a thirty minute,

0:27:37.706,0:27:43.904
illustrated presentation to fully offer their case for us to consider.

0:27:43.904,0:27:44.924
Mr. Ham, you're up.

0:27:57.377,0:28:00.260
Well, the debate topic was "Is creation a viable model

0:28:00.260,0:28:02.994
of origins in today's modern scientific era?"

0:28:02.994,0:28:06.789
And I made the statement at the end of my opening statement:

0:28:06.789,0:28:09.456
creation is the only viable model of historical science

0:28:09.456,0:28:13.271
confirmed by observational science in today's modern scientific era.

0:28:13.271,0:28:16.714
And I said what we need to be doing is actually defining

0:28:16.714,0:28:22.133
our terms and, particularly three terms: science, creation, and evolution.

0:28:22.133,0:28:25.008
Now, I discussed the meaning of the word "science"

0:28:25.008,0:28:28.494
and what is meant by experimental and observational science briefly.

0:28:28.494,0:28:30.631
And that both Creationists and Evolutionists

0:28:30.631,0:28:35.964
can be great scientists, for instance. I mentioned Craig Venter, a biologist.

0:28:35.964,0:28:37.830
He's an atheist and he's a great scientist.

0:28:37.830,0:28:41.025
He was one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome.

0:28:41.025,0:28:46.531
I also mentioned Dr. Raymond Damadian, who actually invented the MRI scanner.

0:28:46.531,0:28:52.140
I want you to meet a biblical creationist who is a scientist and an inventor.

0:28:52.140,0:28:54.874
Hi, my name is Dr. Raymond Damadian.

0:28:54.874,0:28:58.045
I am a Young Earth Creation Scientist and believe that God

0:28:58.045,0:29:01.214
created the world in six 24 hour days,

0:29:01.214,0:29:03.833
just as recorded in the book of Genesis.

0:29:03.833,0:29:07.547
By God's grace and the devoted prayers of my Godly mother-in-law,

0:29:07.547,0:29:11.010
I invented the MRI scanner in 1969.

0:29:11.010,0:29:14.463
The idea that scientists who believe the earth

0:29:14.463,0:29:19.329
is 6,000 years old cannot do real science is simply wrong.

0:29:19.329,0:29:21.194
Well, he's most adamant about that.

0:29:21.194,0:29:24.796
And, actually, he revolutionized medicine! He's a biblical Creationist.

0:29:24.796,0:29:29.426
And I encourage children to follow people like that, make them their heroes.

0:29:29.426,0:29:33.196
Let me introduce you to another biblical Creation Scientist.

0:29:33.196,0:29:34.998
My name is Danny Faulkner.

0:29:34.998,0:29:38.714
I received my PhD in astronomy from Indiana University.

0:29:38.714,0:29:41.604
For 26 and a half years, I was a professor

0:29:41.604,0:29:43.792
at the University of South Carolina, Lancaster,

0:29:43.792,0:29:47.295
where I hold the rank of distinguished professor emeritus.

0:29:47.295,0:29:51.207
Upon my retirement from the university in January of 2013,

0:29:51.207,0:29:56.428
I joined the research staff at Answers in Genesis. I'm a stellar astronomer.

0:29:56.428,0:30:00.272
That means my primary interests is stars, but I'm particularly

0:30:00.272,0:30:02.714
interested in the study of eclipsing binary stars.

0:30:02.714,0:30:05.830
And I've published many articles in the astronomy literature,

0:30:05.830,0:30:07.497
places such as the the Astrophysical Journal,

0:30:07.497,0:30:10.445
the Astronomical Journal, and the Observatory.

0:30:10.445,0:30:16.570
There is nothing in observational astronomy that contradicts a recent creation.

0:30:16.570,0:30:19.626
I also mentioned Dr. Stuart Burgess,

0:30:19.626,0:30:24.299
professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in England.

0:30:24.299,0:30:28.882
Now he invented and designed a double-action worm gear set

0:30:28.882,0:30:33.129
for the three hinges of the robotic arm on a very expensive satellite.

0:30:33.129,0:30:36.294
And if that had not worked, if that gear set had not worked,

0:30:36.294,0:30:38.541
that whole satellite would've been useless.

0:30:38.541,0:30:43.209
Yet, Dr. Burgess is a biblical Creationist. He believes, just as I believe.

0:30:43.209,0:30:45.714
Now, think about this for a moment.

0:30:45.714,0:30:47.600
A scientist like Dr. Burgess,

0:30:47.600,0:30:49.874
who believe in Creation, just as I do,

0:30:49.874,0:30:51.859
a small minority in this scientific world.

0:30:51.859,0:30:55.457
But let's see what he says about scientists believing in Creation.

0:30:55.457,0:30:58.796
I find that many of my colleagues in academia are sympathetic

0:30:58.796,0:31:02.093
to the creationist viewpoint, including biologists.

0:31:02.093,0:31:06.208
However, there are often afraid to speak out because of the criticisms

0:31:06.208,0:31:09.045
they would get from the media and atheists lobby.

0:31:09.045,0:31:11.008
Now, I agree. That's a real problem today.

0:31:11.008,0:31:14.464
We need to have freedom to be able to speak on these topics.

0:31:14.464,0:31:18.128
You know, I just want to say, by the way, that Creationists,

0:31:18.128,0:31:21.574
non-Christian scientists, I should say,

0:31:21.574,0:31:23.743
non-Christian scientists are really borrowing

0:31:23.743,0:31:26.863
from the Christian worldview anyway to carry out their experimental,

0:31:26.863,0:31:30.209
observational science. Think about it. When they're doing

0:31:30.209,0:31:32.827
observational science, using the scientific method,

0:31:32.827,0:31:34.366
they have to assume the laws of logic,

0:31:34.366,0:31:35.830
they have to assume the laws of nature,

0:31:35.830,0:31:37.997
they have to assume the uniformity of nature.

0:31:37.997,0:31:41.107
I mean, think about it. If the universe came about by natural processes,

0:31:41.107,0:31:43.915
where'd the laws of logic come from? Did they just pop into existence?

0:31:43.915,0:31:46.827
Are we in a stage now where we only have half-logic?

0:31:46.827,0:31:49.604
So, you see, I have a question for Bill Nye.

0:31:49.604,0:31:52.998
How do you account for the laws of logic and the laws of nature

0:31:52.998,0:31:57.039
from a naturalistic worldview that excludes the existence of God?

0:31:57.039,0:32:00.829
Now, in my opening statement I also discussed

0:32:00.829,0:32:04.628
a different type of science or knowledge, origins or historical science.

0:32:04.628,0:32:08.658
See again, there's a confusion here. There's a misunderstanding here.

0:32:08.658,0:32:13.180
People, by and large, have not been taught to look at

0:32:13.180,0:32:17.507
what you believe about the past as different to what you're observing in the present.

0:32:17.507,0:32:20.350
You don't observe the past directly.

0:32:20.350,0:32:24.685
Even when you think about the creation account.

0:32:24.685,0:32:26.745
I mean, we can't observe God creating.

0:32:26.745,0:32:29.561
We can't observe the creation of Adam and Eve. We admit that.

0:32:29.561,0:32:32.137
We're willing to admit our beliefs about the past.

0:32:32.137,0:32:35.339
But, see, what you see in the present is very different.

0:32:35.339,0:32:39.620
Even some public school textbooks actually sort of acknowledge

0:32:39.620,0:32:41.960
the difference between historical and observational science.

0:32:41.960,0:32:45.556
Here is an Earth Science textbook that's used in public schools.

0:32:45.556,0:32:48.599
And we read this. In contrast to physical geology,

0:32:48.599,0:32:52.809
the aim of historical geology is to understand Earth's long history.

0:32:52.809,0:32:54.310
Then they make this statement.

0:32:54.310,0:32:57.094
Historical geology--so we're talking historical science--

0:32:57.094,0:33:00.897
tries to establish a timeline of the vast number of physical

0:33:00.897,0:33:03.207
and biological changes that have occurred in the past.

0:33:03.207,0:33:06.812
We study physical geology before historical geology

0:33:06.812,0:33:11.368
because we first must understand how Earth works before we try to unravel its past.

0:33:11.368,0:33:14.558
In other words, we observe things in the present and then,

0:33:14.558,0:33:18.161
okay, we're assuming that that's always happened in the past

0:33:18.161,0:33:20.441
and we're gonna try and figure out how this happened.

0:33:20.441,0:33:22.252
See, there is a difference between what you observe

0:33:22.252,0:33:26.230
and what happened in the past. Let me illustrate it this way:

0:33:27.337,0:33:29.203
If Bill Nye and I went to the Grand Canyon,

0:33:29.203,0:33:32.598
we could agree that that's a Coconino sandstone in the Hermit shale.

0:33:32.598,0:33:35.156
There's the boundary. They're sitting one on top of the other.

0:33:35.156,0:33:38.570
We could agree on that. But you know what we would disagree on?

0:33:38.570,0:33:40.777
I mean, we could even analyse the minerals and agree on that.

0:33:40.777,0:33:43.602
But we would disagree on how long it took to get there.

0:33:43.998,0:33:47.190
But see, none of us saw the sandstone or the shale being laid down.

0:33:47.190,0:33:49.499
There's a supposed 10 million year gap there.

0:33:49.499,0:33:50.893
But I don't see a gap.

0:33:50.893,0:33:53.477
But that might be different to what Bill Nye would see.

0:33:53.477,0:33:57.292
But there's a difference between what you actually observe

0:33:57.292,0:34:00.320
directly and then your interpretation regarding the past.

0:34:00.320,0:34:04.663
When I was at the Goddard Space Center a number of years ago

0:34:04.663,0:34:06.688
I met Creationists and Evolutionists who were

0:34:06.688,0:34:08.291
both working on the Hubble telescope.

0:34:08.291,0:34:10.153
They agreed on how to build the Hubble telescope.

0:34:10.153,0:34:13.189
You know what they disagreed on? Well, they disagreed on

0:34:13.189,0:34:16.630
how to interpret the data the telescope obtained

0:34:16.630,0:34:18.131
in regard to the age of the universe.

0:34:18.131,0:34:21.123
And, you know, we could on and talk about lots

0:34:21.123,0:34:23.033
of other similar sorts of things. For instance,

0:34:23.033,0:34:26.376
I've heard Bill Nye talk about how a smoke detector works,

0:34:26.376,0:34:30.667
using the radioactive element Americium. And, you know what?

0:34:30.667,0:34:32.879
I totally agree with him on that. We agree how it works.

0:34:32.879,0:34:35.691
We agree how radioactivity enables that to work.

0:34:35.691,0:34:37.544
But if you're then gonna use radioactive elements

0:34:37.544,0:34:39.330
and talk about the age of the Earth,

0:34:39.330,0:34:41.131
you've got a problem cause you weren't there.

0:34:41.131,0:34:44.530
We gotta understand parent elements, daughter elements and so on.

0:34:44.530,0:34:47.423
We could agree whether you're Creationist or Evolutionist

0:34:47.423,0:34:50.890
on the technology to put the rover on Mars, but we're gonna

0:34:50.890,0:34:54.156
disagree on how to interpret the origin of Mars.

0:34:54.156,0:34:55.876
I mean, there are some people that believed it

0:34:55.876,0:34:58.891
was even a global flood on Mars, and there's no liquid water on Mars.

0:35:01.152,0:35:03.927
We're gonna disagree maybe on our interpretation of origins

0:35:03.927,0:35:07.057
and you can't prove either way because, not from

0:35:07.057,0:35:10.290
an observational science perspective, because we've only got the present.

0:35:11.336,0:35:16.125
Creationists and Evolutionists both work on medicines and vaccines.

0:35:16.125,0:35:19.330
You see? It doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist,

0:35:19.330,0:35:22.664
all scientists have the same experimental observational science.

0:35:22.664,0:35:26.134
So I have a question for Bill Nye: Can you name one piece

0:35:26.134,0:35:28.887
of technology that could only have been developed

0:35:28.887,0:35:32.356
starting with the belief in molecules-to-man evolution?

0:35:33.217,0:35:34.892
Now, here's another important fact.

0:35:35.553,0:35:38.762
Creationists and Evolutionists all have the same evidence.

0:35:38.762,0:35:42.897
Bill Nye and I have the same Grand Canyon. We don't disagree on that.

0:35:42.897,0:35:46.457
We all have the same fish fossils. This is one from the Creation Museum.

0:35:46.457,0:35:50.235
The same dinosaur skeleton, the same animals, the same humans,

0:35:50.235,0:35:54.456
the same DNA, the same radioactive decay elements that we see.

0:35:54.456,0:35:59.092
We have the same universe...actually, we all have the same evidences.

0:35:59.784,0:36:01.332
It's not the evidences that are different.

0:36:01.332,0:36:06.115
It's a battle over the same evidence in regard to how we interpret the past.

0:36:06.115,0:36:07.250
And you know why that is?

0:36:07.250,0:36:09.731
Cause it's really a battle over worldviews and starting points.

0:36:09.731,0:36:11.922
It's a battle over philosophical worldviews

0:36:11.922,0:36:14.721
and starting points, but the same evidence. Now, I admit,

0:36:14.721,0:36:17.389
my starting point is that God is the ultimate authority.

0:36:17.389,0:36:21.427
But if someone doesn't accept that, then man has to be the ultimate authority.

0:36:21.427,0:36:23.762
And that's really the difference when it comes down to it.

0:36:23.762,0:36:26.587
You see, I've been emphasizing the difference

0:36:26.587,0:36:29.364
between historical origin science, knowledge about

0:36:29.364,0:36:30.620
the past when you weren't there,

0:36:30.620,0:36:33.133
and we need to understand that we weren't there.

0:36:33.133,0:36:36.244
Or experimental observational science, using

0:36:36.244,0:36:38.412
your five senses in the present, the scientific method,

0:36:38.412,0:36:41.021
what you can directly observe, test, repeat.

0:36:42.666,0:36:44.120
There's a big difference between those two.

0:36:44.120,0:36:46.727
And that's not what's being taught in our public schools

0:36:46.727,0:36:48.566
and that's why kids aren't being taught to think

0:36:48.566,0:36:51.600
critically and correctly about the origins issue.

0:36:51.600,0:36:53.644
But you know, it's also important to understand,

0:36:53.644,0:36:56.692
when talking about Creation and Evolution, both involve

0:36:56.692,0:36:59.231
historical science and observational science.

0:36:59.231,0:37:02.225
You see, the role of observational science is this:

0:37:02.225,0:37:03.816
it can be used to confirm or otherwise

0:37:03.816,0:37:07.375
one's historical science based on one's starting point.

0:37:07.627,0:37:10.889
Now, when you think about the debate topic and what I have

0:37:10.889,0:37:14.296
learned concerning creation, if our origins

0:37:14.296,0:37:17.757
or historical science based on the bible, the bible's account

0:37:17.757,0:37:21.073
of origins is true, then there should be predictions

0:37:21.073,0:37:24.342
from this that we can test, using observational science.

0:37:24.342,0:37:26.839
And there are. For instance, based on the bible,

0:37:26.839,0:37:29.557
we'd expect to find evidence concerning an intelligence,

0:37:29.557,0:37:31.918
confirming an intelligence produced life.

0:37:31.918,0:37:35.093
We'd expect to find evidence confirming after their kind.

0:37:35.093,0:37:38.056
The bible says God made kinds of animals and plants

0:37:38.056,0:37:41.088
after their kind, implying each kind produces it's own,

0:37:41.088,0:37:43.304
not that one kind changes into another.

0:37:43.304,0:37:47.156
You'd expect to find evidence confirming a global flood of Noah's day.

0:37:47.156,0:37:50.891
Evidence confirming one race of humans because we

0:37:50.891,0:37:54.500
all go back to Adam and Eve, biologically, that would mean there's one race.

0:37:54.500,0:37:57.627
Evidence confirming the Tower of Babel, that God gave different languages.

0:37:57.627,0:38:00.166
Evidence confirming a young universe.

0:38:00.166,0:38:04.095
Now, I can't go through all of those, but a couple of them we'll look at briefly.

0:38:04.095,0:38:07.557
After their kind, evidence confirming that--

0:38:07.557,0:38:12.969
in the Creation Museum, we have a display featuring replicas,

0:38:12.969,0:38:15.593
actually, of Darwin's finches. They're called Darwin's finches.

0:38:15.593,0:38:18.260
Darwin collected finches from the Galapagos

0:38:18.260,0:38:21.628
and took them back to England and we see the different species,

0:38:21.628,0:38:24.494
the different beak sizes here. And, you know,

0:38:24.494,0:38:27.187
from the specimens Darwin obtained in the Galapagos,

0:38:27.187,0:38:31.180
he actually pondered these things and how do you explain this.

0:38:31.180,0:38:36.562
And in his notes, actually, he came up with this diagram here, a tree.

0:38:36.562,0:38:42.004
And he actually said, "I think." So he was talking about

0:38:42.004,0:38:46.533
different species and maybe those species came from some common ancestor,

0:38:46.533,0:38:49.504
but, actually, when it comes to finches, we actually would agree,

0:38:49.504,0:38:54.160
as Creationists, that different finch species came from a common ancestor, but a finch.

0:38:54.160,0:38:56.382
That's what they would have to come from.

0:38:56.382,0:39:00.460
And see, Darwin wasn't just thinking about species.

0:39:01.244,0:39:03.490
Darwin had a much bigger picture in mind.

0:39:03.490,0:39:07.360
When you look at the Origins of Species and read that book,

0:39:07.360,0:39:10.870
you'll find he made this statement: from such low and intermediate form,

0:39:10.870,0:39:12.970
both animals and plants may have been developed;

0:39:12.970,0:39:16.126
and, if we admit this, we must likewise admit that

0:39:16.126,0:39:18.966
all organic beings which have ever lived on this Earth

0:39:18.966,0:39:22.037
may be descended from some one primordial form.

0:39:22.037,0:39:27.534
So he had in mind what we today know as an evolutionary tree of life,

0:39:27.534,0:39:31.323
that all life has arisen from some primordial form.

0:39:31.323,0:39:34.992
Now, when you consider the classifications system,

0:39:34.992,0:39:37.570
kingdom phylum class or the family genus species,

0:39:37.570,0:39:41.690
we would say, as Creationists, we have many creation scientists

0:39:41.690,0:39:43.464
that research this and, for lots of reasons,

0:39:43.464,0:39:47.057
I would say, the kind in Genesis 1 is really more at

0:39:47.057,0:39:50.591
the family level of classification. For instance, there's one dog kind.

0:39:50.591,0:39:53.405
There's one cat kind. Even though you have different

0:39:53.405,0:39:55.567
generative species, that would mean, by the way,

0:39:55.567,0:39:57.891
you didn't need anywhere near the number of animals

0:39:57.891,0:39:59.236
on the ark as people think.

0:39:59.236,0:40:00.826
You wouldn't need all the species of dogs, just two.

0:40:00.826,0:40:02.501
Not all the species of cats--just two.

0:40:02.501,0:40:06.788
And, you see, based on the biblical account there in Genesis One,

0:40:06.788,0:40:10.257
Creationists have drawn up what they believe is a creation origin.

0:40:10.257,0:40:13.130
In other words, they're saying, "Look. There's great variation

0:40:13.130,0:40:16.212
in the genetics of dogs and finches and so on."

0:40:16.212,0:40:19.436
And so, over time, particularly after Noah's flood,

0:40:19.436,0:40:21.502
you'd expect if there were two dogs, for instance,

0:40:21.502,0:40:24.671
you could end up with different species of dogs because

0:40:24.671,0:40:28.714
there's an incredible amount of variability in the genes of any creature.

0:40:28.714,0:40:33.170
And so you'd expect these different species up here, but there's limits.

0:40:33.170,0:40:36.270
Dogs will always be dogs, finches will always be finches.

0:40:36.270,0:40:41.856
Now, as a Creationist, I maintain that observational science

0:40:41.856,0:40:45.714
actually confirms this model, based on the bible.

0:40:45.714,0:40:49.236
For instance, take dogs. Okay?

0:40:49.236,0:40:53.524
In a scientific paper dated January 2014--that's this year--

0:40:53.524,0:40:57.658
scientists working at the University of California stated this:

0:40:57.658,0:41:00.544
We provide several lines of evidence supporting

0:41:00.544,0:41:04.377
a single origin for dogs, and disfavoring alternative models

0:41:04.377,0:41:06.836
in which dog lineages arise separately

0:41:06.836,0:41:09.324
from geographically distinct wolf populations.

0:41:09.324,0:41:11.546
And they put this diagram in the paper.

0:41:11.546,0:41:14.203
By the way, that diagram is very, very similar

0:41:14.203,0:41:17.827
to this diagram that Creationists proposed based upon

0:41:17.827,0:41:20.715
the creation account in Genesis. In other words,

0:41:20.715,0:41:22.934
you have a common dog ancestor that gives rise

0:41:22.934,0:41:25.325
to the different species of dogs, and that's exactly

0:41:25.325,0:41:28.134
what we're saying here. Now, in the Creation Museum,

0:41:28.134,0:41:31.259
we actually show the finches here and you see the finches

0:41:31.259,0:41:34.792
with their different beaks, beside dogs skulls, different species of dogs.

0:41:34.792,0:41:37.547
By the way, there's more variation in the dog skeleton

0:41:37.547,0:41:40.427
here than there are in these finches. Yet, the dogs,

0:41:40.427,0:41:42.876
wow, that's never used as an example of evolution,

0:41:42.876,0:41:45.789
but the finches are, particularly in the public school textbooks.

0:41:45.789,0:41:48.963
Students are taught, "Ah! See the changes that are occurring here?"

0:41:48.963,0:41:51.093
And here's another problem that we've got.

0:41:51.093,0:41:55.624
Not only has the word "science" been hijacked by secularists,

0:41:55.624,0:41:59.791
I believe the word "evolution" has been hijacked by secularists.

0:41:59.791,0:42:03.860
The word "evolution" has been hijacked using what I call a bait and switch.

0:42:03.860,0:42:05.161
Let me explain to you.

0:42:06.130,0:42:09.766
The word "evolution" is being used in public school textbooks,

0:42:09.766,0:42:11.826
and we often see it in documentaries and so on,

0:42:11.826,0:42:15.265
is used for observable changes that we would agree with,

0:42:15.265,0:42:19.244
and then used for unobservable changes, such as molecules-to-man.

0:42:19.244,0:42:21.724
Let me explain to you what's really going on because

0:42:21.724,0:42:23.410
I was a science teacher in the public schools

0:42:23.410,0:42:26.125
and I know what the students were taught and I checked

0:42:26.125,0:42:28.134
the public school textbooks anyway to know what they're taught.

0:42:28.379,0:42:30.790
See, students are taught today, look, there's all

0:42:30.790,0:42:33.595
these different animals, plants, but they're all part

0:42:33.595,0:42:37.450
of this great, big tree of life that goes back to some primordial form.

0:42:37.450,0:42:39.572
And, look, we see changes. Changes in finches,

0:42:39.572,0:42:42.572
changes in dogs and so on. Now, we don't deny the changes.

0:42:42.572,0:42:45.566
You see that. You see different species of finches, different species of dogs.

0:42:45.566,0:42:48.274
But then they put it all together in this evolutionary tree--

0:42:48.274,0:42:50.499
but that's what you don't observe. You don't observe that.

0:42:50.499,0:42:54.330
That's belief there. That's the historical science

0:42:54.330,0:42:57.994
that I would say is wrong. But, you know, what you do observe,

0:42:57.994,0:43:02.607
you do observe different species of dogs, different species of finches,

0:43:02.607,0:43:06.708
but then there are limits. You don't see one kind changing into another.

0:43:06.708,0:43:12.124
Actually, we're told that if you teach creation

0:43:12.124,0:43:14.238
in the public schools as teaching religion,

0:43:14.238,0:43:17.099
if you teach evolution as science, I'm gonna say, "Wait a minute!"

0:43:17.099,0:43:21.283
Actually, the creation model here, based upon the Bible,

0:43:21.283,0:43:24.404
observational science confirms this. This is what you're observe!

0:43:24.404,0:43:25.787
You don't observe this tree.

0:43:25.787,0:43:29.499
Actually, it's the public school textbooks that are teaching a belief,

0:43:29.499,0:43:32.213
imposing it on students, and they need to be teaching them

0:43:32.213,0:43:36.124
observational science to understand the reality of what's happening.

0:43:36.877,0:43:40.660
Now, what we found is that public school textbooks present

0:43:40.660,0:43:44.674
the evolutionary "tree" as science, but reject the creation "orchard" as religion.

0:43:44.674,0:43:47.459
But observational science confirms the creation orchard--

0:43:47.459,0:43:50.796
so public school textbooks are rejecting observational science

0:43:50.796,0:43:53.878
and imposing a naturalistic religion on students.

0:43:53.878,0:43:56.938
The word "evolution" has been hijacked using a bait and switch

0:43:56.938,0:44:00.403
to indoctrinate students to accept evolutionary belief

0:44:00.403,0:44:02.341
as observational science.

0:44:02.341,0:44:05.918
Let me introduce you to another scientist, Richard Lenski,

0:44:05.918,0:44:08.675
from Michigan State University. He's a great scientist,

0:44:08.675,0:44:11.161
he's known for culturing e-coli in the lab...

0:44:11.161,0:44:15.431
and he found there was some e-coli that actually seemed

0:44:15.431,0:44:22.939
to develop the ability to grow on cistrate on substrate.

0:44:23.400,0:44:28.241
But Richard Lenski is here, mentioned in this book,

0:44:28.241,0:44:30.908
and it's called "Evolution in the Lab".

0:44:30.908,0:44:35.500
So the ability to grow on citrate is said to be evolution.

0:44:35.500,0:44:39.842
And there are those that say, "Hey! This is against the Creationist."

0:44:39.842,0:44:42.895
For instance, Jerry Coin from University of Chicago says,

0:44:42.895,0:44:45.587
"Lenski's experiment is also yet another poke in the eye

0:44:45.587,0:44:47.228
for anti-evolutionists."

0:44:47.228,0:44:50.589
He says, "The thing I like most is it says you can get

0:44:50.589,0:44:53.705
these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events."

0:44:53.705,0:44:57.167
But is it a poke in the eye for anti-evolutionists?

0:44:57.167,0:45:01.371
Is it really seeing complex traits evolving?

0:45:01.371,0:45:06.198
What does it mean that some of these bacteria are able to grow on citrate?

0:45:06.198,0:45:10.240
Let me introduce you to another biblical Creationist, who is a scientist.

0:45:10.240,0:45:12.761
Hi, my name's Dr. Andrew Fabich.

0:45:12.761,0:45:16.450
I got my PhD from University of Oklahoma in Microbiology.

0:45:16.450,0:45:20.075
I teach at Liberty University and I do research on e-coli in the intestine.

0:45:20.075,0:45:25.660
I've published it in secular journals from the American Society for Microbiology,

0:45:25.660,0:45:30.971
including infection immunity and applied environmental microbiology

0:45:30.971,0:45:32.361
as well as several others.

0:45:32.361,0:45:35.320
My work has been cited even in the past year in the journals Nature,

0:45:35.320,0:45:38.700
Science Translational Medicine, Public Library of Science,

0:45:38.700,0:45:41.660
Public Library of Science Genetics. It's cited regularly

0:45:41.660,0:45:45.905
in those journals and while I was taught nothing but evolution,

0:45:45.905,0:45:48.142
I don't accept that position.

0:45:48.142,0:45:50.263
I do my research from a creation perspective.

0:45:50.263,0:45:54.365
When I look at the evidence that people cite as e-coli,

0:45:54.365,0:46:00.657
supposedly, evolving over 30 years, over 30,000 generations in the lab,

0:46:00.657,0:46:04.410
and people say that it is now able to grow on citrate,

0:46:04.410,0:46:06.199
I don't deny that it grows on citrate,

0:46:06.199,0:46:08.761
but it's not any kind of new information.

0:46:08.761,0:46:12.042
The information's already there and it's just a switch

0:46:12.042,0:46:15.578
that gets turned on and off and that's what they reported in there.

0:46:15.578,0:46:17.238
There's nothing new.

0:46:17.238,0:46:20.341
See, students need to be told what's really going on here.

0:46:20.341,0:46:24.372
Certainly there's change, but it's not change necessary for molecules-to-man.

0:46:24.372,0:46:27.130
Now, we could look at other predictions.

0:46:27.130,0:46:29.264
What about evidence confirming one race?

0:46:29.264,0:46:32.394
Well, when we look at the human population we see lots of differences.

0:46:32.394,0:46:35.298
But based on Darwin's ideas of human evolution,

0:46:35.298,0:46:37.629
as presented in The Descent of Man, I mean,

0:46:37.629,0:46:39.588
Darwin did teach in The Descent of Man there were

0:46:39.588,0:46:41.461
lower races and higher races.

0:46:41.461,0:46:44.542
Would you believe, that back in the 1900s, one of the most

0:46:44.542,0:46:49.433
popular biology textbooks used in the public schools in America taught this:

0:46:49.433,0:46:51.808
At the present time there exists upon Earth

0:46:51.808,0:46:55.060
five races or varieties of man...and finally,

0:46:55.060,0:46:58.195
the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented

0:46:58.195,0:47:01.107
by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.

0:47:01.107,0:47:03.098
Can you imagine if that was in the public schools today?

0:47:03.098,0:47:06.500
And, yet, that's what was taught, but it was based on

0:47:06.500,0:47:11.204
Darwin's ideas that are wrong. You have a wrong foundation.

0:47:11.204,0:47:12.558
You're gonna have a wrong worldview.

0:47:12.558,0:47:15.765
Now, had they started from the Bible, and from

0:47:15.765,0:47:18.251
the creation account in the Bible, what does it teach?

0:47:19.153,0:47:21.251
Well, we're all descendants of Adam and Eve.

0:47:21.251,0:47:24.152
We go through the Tower of Babel, different languages,

0:47:24.152,0:47:26.275
so different people groups formed distinct characteristics.

0:47:26.275,0:47:29.217
But we'd expect, we'd say, you know what,

0:47:29.217,0:47:31.187
that means there's biologically only one race of humans.

0:47:31.187,0:47:33.696
Well, I mentioned Dr. Venter before.

0:47:33.696,0:47:36.819
And he was a researcher with the human genome project.

0:47:36.819,0:47:39.464
And you'll remember, in the year 2000, this was headline news,

0:47:39.464,0:47:42.053
and what we read was this: they had put together

0:47:42.053,0:47:44.219
a draft of the entire sequence of the human genome

0:47:44.219,0:47:48.356
and unanimously declared, there is only one race - the human race.

0:47:48.356,0:47:49.700
Wow! Who would have guessed?

0:47:49.700,0:47:52.539
But you see there we have observational science

0:47:52.539,0:47:54.709
confirming the Creation account,

0:47:54.709,0:47:58.028
not confirming at all Darwin's ideas.

0:47:58.444,0:48:00.090
Now, there's much more that can be said

0:48:00.090,0:48:01.215
on each of these topics.

0:48:01.215,0:48:04.446
Obviously, you can't do that in a short time like this.

0:48:04.723,0:48:06.286
And you could do a lot more research.

0:48:06.286,0:48:09.372
I suggest you visit our website at Answers in Genesis

0:48:09.372,0:48:10.853
for a lot more information.

0:48:10.853,0:48:14.658
So, the debate topic: Is creation a viable model

0:48:14.658,0:48:16.677
of origins in today's scientific era?

0:48:17.169,0:48:19.637
I said, we need to define the terms,

0:48:19.637,0:48:21.304
and particularly, the term science

0:48:21.304,0:48:23.945
and the term evolution. And I believe we need

0:48:23.945,0:48:25.932
to understand how they are being used to impose

0:48:25.932,0:48:29.565
an anti-God religion on generations of unsuspecting students.

0:48:29.934,0:48:32.082
You see, I keep emphasizing we do need to

0:48:32.082,0:48:34.166
understand the difference between experimental or

0:48:34.166,0:48:36.943
observational science and historical science.

0:48:36.943,0:48:37.909
And you know what?

0:48:38.185,0:48:39.991
The secularists don't like me doing this

0:48:39.991,0:48:41.523
because they don't want to admit

0:48:41.523,0:48:43.687
that there's a belief aspect to what they're saying.

0:48:43.687,0:48:45.989
And there is. And they can't get away from it.

0:48:46.235,0:48:48.750
Let me illustrate this with a statement from Bill Nye.

0:48:49.058,0:48:50.741
"You can show the Earth is not flat.

0:48:50.741,0:48:52.942
You can show the Earth is not 10,000 years old."

0:48:52.942,0:48:55.574
By the way, I agree. You can show the Earth is not flat.

0:48:55.574,0:48:58.638
There's a video from the Galileo spacecraft showing

0:48:58.638,0:49:00.688
the Earth, and speeded up of course, but spinning.

0:49:00.688,0:49:02.784
You can see it's a sphere. You can observe that.

0:49:03.076,0:49:05.227
You can't observe the age of the Earth.

0:49:05.519,0:49:08.249
You don't see that. You see again, I emphasize,

0:49:08.249,0:49:10.358
there's a big difference between historical science,

0:49:10.512,0:49:13.558
talking about the past, and observational science,

0:49:13.558,0:49:15.308
talking about the present.

0:49:15.738,0:49:18.196
And I believe what's happening is this, that students are being

0:49:18.196,0:49:20.384
indoctrinated by the confusion of terms:

0:49:20.384,0:49:22.884
the hijacking of the word science and the hijacking

0:49:22.884,0:49:25.571
of the word evolution in a bait-and-switch.

0:49:26.140,0:49:29.267
Let me illustrate further with this video clip.

0:49:29.267,0:49:31.945
Because here I assert that Bill Nye is equating

0:49:31.945,0:49:34.561
observational science with historical science.

0:49:34.561,0:49:37.697
And I also say it's not a mystery when you understand the difference.

0:49:37.697,0:49:41.590
Howie, people with these deeply held religious beliefs,

0:49:41.590,0:49:45.293
they embrace that whole literal interpretation

0:49:45.293,0:49:49.492
of the Bible as written in English, as a worldview.

0:49:49.492,0:49:53.945
And, at the same time, they accept aspirin,

0:49:53.945,0:49:58.988
antibiotic drugs, airplanes, but they're able

0:49:58.988,0:50:01.496
to hold these two worldviews. And this is a mystery.

0:50:01.496,0:50:04.496
Actually, I suggest to you it's not a mystery.

0:50:04.496,0:50:06.557
You see, when I'm talking about antibiotics,

0:50:06.557,0:50:09.230
aspirin, smoke detectors, jet planes,

0:50:09.230,0:50:11.858
that's Ken Ham the Observational Science Bloke.

0:50:11.858,0:50:15.403
I'm an Australian. We call guy's "blokes", okay?

0:50:15.403,0:50:18.394
But when you're talking about creation and thousands of years

0:50:18.394,0:50:19.559
of the age of the Earth,

0:50:19.559,0:50:21.238
that's Ken Ham the Historical Science Bloke.

0:50:21.238,0:50:22.159
I'm willing to admit that.

0:50:22.159,0:50:24.523
Now, when Bill Nye's talking about aspirin,

0:50:24.523,0:50:26.519
antibiotics, jet planes, smoke detectors,

0:50:26.519,0:50:27.811
he does a great job at that.

0:50:27.811,0:50:29.695
I used to enjoy watching him on TV too.

0:50:29.695,0:50:32.892
That's Bill Nye the Observational Science Guy.

0:50:32.892,0:50:34.858
But when he's talking about evolution and millions of years,

0:50:34.858,0:50:39.157
I'm challenging him that that's Bill Nye the Historical Science Guy.

0:50:39.157,0:50:42.688
And I challenge the evolutionist to admit the belief

0:50:42.688,0:50:46.405
aspects of their particular worldview.

0:50:46.405,0:50:49.635
Now, at the Creation Museum, we're only too willing

0:50:49.635,0:50:51.469
to admit our beliefs based upon the Bible,

0:50:51.469,0:50:53.778
but we also teach people the difference between

0:50:53.778,0:50:55.932
beliefs and what one can actually observe

0:50:55.932,0:50:57.445
and experiment with in the present.

0:50:57.445,0:50:59.613
I believe we're teaching people to think critically

0:50:59.613,0:51:03.210
and to think in the right terms about science.

0:51:03.210,0:51:05.190
I believe it's the creationists that should be

0:51:05.190,0:51:08.438
educating the kids out there because we're teaching

0:51:08.438,0:51:11.604
them the right way to think. You know, we admit it.

0:51:11.604,0:51:13.856
Our origins of historical science is based upon the Bible,

0:51:13.856,0:51:16.157
but I'm just challenging evolutionists to admit

0:51:16.157,0:51:17.693
the belief aspects of evolution

0:51:17.693,0:51:20.188
and be upfront about the difference here.

0:51:20.188,0:51:22.405
As I said, I'm only too willing to admit

0:51:22.405,0:51:24.827
my historical science based on the Bible.

0:51:24.827,0:51:30.027
And let me further go on to define the term "creation" as we use it.

0:51:30.027,0:51:34.137
By creation, we mean, here at Answers in Genesis

0:51:34.137,0:51:37.780
and the Creation Museum, we mean the account based on the Bible.

0:51:37.780,0:51:41.135
Yes, I take Genesis as literal history, as Jesus did.

0:51:41.135,0:51:44.775
And, here at the Creation Museum, we walk people through that history.

0:51:44.775,0:51:47.635
We walk them through creation, the perfect creation.

0:51:47.635,0:51:51.738
That God made Adam and Eve, land animal kinds, sea-creatures and so on.

0:51:51.738,0:51:54.436
And then sin and death entered the world.

0:51:54.436,0:51:56.499
There was no death before sin.

0:51:56.499,0:52:00.590
That means how can you have billions of dead things before man sinned?

0:52:04.834,0:52:06.760
And then, the catastrophe of Noah's flood. If there was a global flood,

0:52:06.760,0:52:08.918
you'd expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.

0:52:08.918,0:52:12.843
Had to say that because a lot of our supporters would want me to.

0:52:12.843,0:52:17.925
And what do you find?--Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.

0:52:17.925,0:52:22.338
Confusion, the tower of Babel. God gave different languages so you get different people groups.

0:52:22.338,0:52:28.222
So this is the geological, astronomical, anthropological, biological history as recorded in the Bible.

0:52:28.222,0:52:31.344
So this is concerning what happened in the past that explains the present.

0:52:31.344,0:52:36.865
And then, of course, that God's Son stepped into history to be Jesus Christ, the God-Man

0:52:36.865,0:52:39.331
to die on the cross, be raised from the dead. And one day there's going to be

0:52:39.331,0:52:42.336
a new heavens and a new earth to come. And, you know, not only

0:52:42.336,0:52:47.389
is this an understanding of history to explain the

0:52:47.389,0:52:50.251
geology, biology, astronomy, and so on to connect the present to the past.

0:52:50.251,0:52:53.901
But it's also a foundation for our whole world view.

0:52:53.901,0:52:58.233
For instance, in Matthew 19, when Jesus was asked about marriage, he said,

0:52:58.233,0:53:02.660
"Have you not read He who made them at the beginning made them male and female?"

0:53:02.660,0:53:06.398
And said, "For this cause shall a man leave his mother and father and be joined to his wife. And they'll be one flesh."

0:53:06.398,0:53:12.055
He quoted from Genesis as literal history--Genesis 1 and 2. God invented marriage, by the way.

0:53:12.055,0:53:15.467
That's where marriage comes from. And it's to be a man and a woman.

0:53:15.467,0:53:19.557
And not only marriage. Ultimately, every single Biblical doctrine of theology

0:53:19.557,0:53:22.166
directly or indirectly, is founded in Genesis.

0:53:22.166,0:53:25.175
Why is there sin in the world? Genesis.

0:53:25.175,0:53:26.844
Why is there death? Genesis.

0:53:26.844,0:53:28.802
Why do we wear clothes? Genesis.

0:53:28.802,0:53:30.563
Why did Jesus die on the cross? Genesis.

0:53:30.563,0:53:33.188
It's a very important book. It's foundational to all Christian doctrine.

0:53:33.188,0:53:36.505
And you see, when we look at that, what I call the seven C's of History

0:53:36.505,0:53:38.458
that we walk people through here at the museum,

0:53:38.458,0:53:40.927
think about how it all connects together--a perfect creation.

0:53:40.927,0:53:43.135
It'll be perfect again in the future.

0:53:43.135,0:53:46.923
Sin and death--end of the world. That's why God's son died on the cross

0:53:46.923,0:53:50.003
to conquer death and offer a free gift of salvation.

0:53:50.003,0:53:53.900
The flood of Noah's day, a reminder that the flood was a

0:53:53.900,0:53:56.177
judgement because of man's wickedness but at the same time

0:53:56.177,0:53:58.238
a message of God's grace and salvation.

0:53:58.238,0:54:00.918
As Noah and his family had to go through a door to be saved,

0:54:00.918,0:54:03.123
so we need to go through a door to be saved.

0:54:03.123,0:54:05.867
Jesus Christ said, "I am the door. By me, if any man

0:54:05.867,0:54:08.633
enter in, he'll be saved. And we make no apology

0:54:08.633,0:54:11.059
about the fact that what we're on about is this:

0:54:11.059,0:54:13.465
"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and

0:54:13.465,0:54:15.584
believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead,

0:54:15.584,0:54:17.925
you'll be saved. Now, as soon as I said that,

0:54:17.925,0:54:21.003
see if people say, "See, if you allow creation in schools,

0:54:21.003,0:54:23.005
for instance, if you'll ask students to even hear about it,

0:54:23.005,0:54:24.668
ah, this is religion."

0:54:24.668,0:54:27.170
You know, let me illustrate this,

0:54:27.170,0:54:30.458
talking about a recent battle in Texas over textbooks

0:54:30.458,0:54:35.468
in the public school. A newspaper report said this:

0:54:35.468,0:54:37.760
"Textbook and classroom curriculum battles have long

0:54:37.760,0:54:40.233
raged in Texas pitting creationists - those who see

0:54:40.233,0:54:42.094
God's hand in the creation of the universe-

0:54:42.094,0:54:43.927
against academics..."

0:54:43.927,0:54:46.258
Stop right there. Notice creationists... academics.

0:54:46.258,0:54:48.557
Creationists can't be academics. Creationists can't be scientists.

0:54:48.557,0:54:50.420
See, it's the way things are worded out there.

0:54:50.420,0:54:53.365
It's an indoctrination that's going on.

0:54:53.365,0:54:55.898
We worry about religious and political ideology

0:54:55.898,0:54:58.171
trumping scientific fact. Wait a minute.

0:54:58.171,0:54:59.958
What do I mean by science? You're talking about

0:54:59.958,0:55:03.365
what you observe, or are you talking about your beliefs about the past?

0:55:03.365,0:55:07.522
Now, Kathy Miller is the president of the Texas Freedom Network and

0:55:07.522,0:55:14.098
she has vocally spoken out. She's spoken out about this textbook battle there in Texas.

0:55:14.098,0:55:21.925
And the mission statement of the organization she's president of says, "The Texas Freedom Network

0:55:21.925,0:55:24.818
advances a mainstream agenda of religious freedom and individual liberties

0:55:24.818,0:55:28.486
to counter the religious right." Religious freedom... individual liberties. Hmm.

0:55:28.486,0:55:34.220
And then she makes this statement: "Science education..." What does she mean by science?

0:55:34.220,0:55:37.298
"should be based on mainstream science education, not on personal idealogical beliefs

0:55:37.298,0:55:43.435
of unqualified reviewers." Wait a minute. They want religious liberty and not personal

0:55:43.435,0:55:48.697
ideological beliefs? I assert this: public school textbooks are using the same word "science"

0:55:48.697,0:55:53.345
for observational and historical science. They arbitrarily define science as naturalism

0:55:53.345,0:55:57.210
and outlaw the supernatural. They present molecules-to-man evolution as as fact.

0:55:57.210,0:56:00.276
And they are imposing the religion of naturalism on generations of students.

0:56:00.276,0:56:02.934
They're imposing their ideology on the students

0:56:02.934,0:56:04.909
and everything's explained by natural processes.

0:56:04.909,0:56:07.422
That is a religion. What do you mean by religious liberty?

0:56:07.422,0:56:09.245
They tolerate their religion.

0:56:10.260,0:56:12.430
See, the battle is really about authority.

0:56:12.430,0:56:15.031
It's more than just science or evolution or creation.

0:56:15.031,0:56:18.404
It's about who is the authority in this world, man or God?

0:56:19.080,0:56:22.488
If you start with naturalism, then what about morals?

0:56:22.488,0:56:24.741
Who decides right and wrong? Well, it's subjective.

0:56:24.741,0:56:26.528
Marriage? Well, whatever you want it to be.

0:56:27.204,0:56:29.547
Get rid of old people. I mean, why not?

0:56:29.547,0:56:31.800
They're just animals, they're costing us a lot of money.

0:56:31.800,0:56:35.323
Abortion. Get rid of spare cats, get rid of spare kids. We're all animals.

0:56:35.323,0:56:38.166
But if you start from God's word, there are moral absolutes.

0:56:38.166,0:56:40.927
God decides right and wrong. Marriage--one man and one woman.

0:56:40.927,0:56:44.327
Sanctity of life--we care for old people. They're made in the image of God.

0:56:44.327,0:56:47.996
Life begins at fertilization, so abortion is killing a human being.

0:56:48.319,0:56:50.539
We do see the collapse of Christian morality

0:56:50.539,0:56:53.129
in our culture and increasing moral relativism

0:56:53.129,0:56:56.273
because generations of kids are being taught the religion

0:56:56.273,0:56:59.147
of naturalism and that the Bible can't be trusted.

0:56:59.147,0:57:03.042
And so, again, I say creation is the only viable model

0:57:03.042,0:57:05.894
of historical science confirmed by observational science

0:57:05.894,0:57:08.159
in today's modern scientific era. You know what?

0:57:08.159,0:57:10.820
I'm a science teacher. I want to see kids taught science.

0:57:10.820,0:57:14.375
I love science. I want to see more (inaudible) in the world.

0:57:14.575,0:57:16.387
You know, if we teach them the whole universe

0:57:16.387,0:57:19.340
is a result of natural processes and not designed

0:57:19.340,0:57:22.455
by a creative God, they might be looking in the wrong places

0:57:22.455,0:57:24.436
or have the wrong idea when they're looking

0:57:24.436,0:57:27.817
at the creation in regard to how you develop technology

0:57:27.817,0:57:30.809
because if they look at it as just random processes,

0:57:30.809,0:57:33.426
that could totally influence the way they think.

0:57:33.426,0:57:36.077
If they understand it was a perfect world marred by sin,

0:57:36.077,0:57:38.964
that could have a great affect on how they then look

0:57:38.964,0:57:42.254
for overcoming diseases and problems in the world.

0:57:42.254,0:57:45.590
I want children to be taught the right foundation,

0:57:45.590,0:57:48.037
that there's a God who created them, who loves them,

0:57:48.037,0:57:52.037
who died on the cross for them and that they're special.

0:57:52.037,0:57:53.412
They're made in the image of God.

0:57:55.012,0:57:56.289
(moderator) There you go. Thank you, Mr. Ham.

0:57:56.289,0:57:58.964
-We can applaud Mr. Ham's presentation.[br]-(audience applauds)

0:58:12.147,0:58:14.205
And, you know, it did occur to me when you had

0:58:14.205,0:58:17.043
my old friend Larry King up there, you could've just asked him.

0:58:17.566,0:58:20.140
He's been around a long time. And he's a smart guy!

0:58:20.140,0:58:25.221
He could probably answer for all of us. Now, let's all be

0:58:25.221,0:58:28.422
attentive to Mr. Nye as he gives us his 30 minute presentation.

0:58:28.422,0:58:31.647
Thank you very much and, Mr. Ham, I learned something.

0:58:31.923,0:58:36.883
Thank you. But let's take it back around to question at hand:

0:58:37.590,0:58:41.623
does Ken Ham's creation model hold up? Is it viable?

0:58:42.638,0:58:46.280
So, for me, of course...well...take a look.

0:58:46.987,0:58:53.264
We're here in Kentucky on layer upon layer upon layer of limestone.

0:58:53.540,0:58:56.222
I stopped at the side of the road today and picked up

0:58:56.222,0:58:59.944
just a piece of limestone. It has a fossil right there.

0:59:00.636,0:59:05.294
Now, in these many, many layers, in this vicinity of Kentucky,

0:59:05.294,0:59:10.058
there are coral animal--fossils, Zooxanthella--

0:59:10.350,0:59:12.041
and when you look at it closely,

0:59:12.041,0:59:14.322
you can see that they lived their entire lives.

0:59:14.322,0:59:18.173
They lived typically 20 years, sometimes more than that

0:59:18.742,0:59:20.551
when the water conditions are correct.

0:59:20.874,0:59:26.050
And so we are standing on millions of layers of ancient life.

0:59:27.188,0:59:30.312
How could those animals have lived their entire life,

0:59:30.312,0:59:33.644
and formed these layers, in just 4,000 years?

0:59:34.167,0:59:38.666
There isn't enough time since Mr. Ham's flood

0:59:38.912,0:59:43.522
for this limestone that we're standing on to come into existence.

0:59:46.075,0:59:48.835
My scientific colleagues go to places like Greenland,

0:59:48.835,0:59:52.505
the Arctic, they go to Antarctica, and they drill

0:59:52.505,0:59:57.265
into the ice with hollow drill bits. It's not that extraordinary.

0:59:57.265,0:59:59.837
Many of you have probably done it yourselves, drilling other things.

0:59:59.837,1:00:02.855
Hole saws to put locks in doors, for example.

1:00:03.547,1:00:09.359
And we pull out long cylinders of ice, long ice rods.

1:00:09.851,1:00:14.437
And these are made of snow and it's called "snow ice".

1:00:14.975,1:00:20.019
And snow ice forms over the winter as snowflakes fall

1:00:20.019,1:00:23.130
and are crushed down by subsequent layers. They're crushed together,

1:00:23.130,1:00:26.564
entrapping the little bubbles and the little bubbles must

1:00:26.564,1:00:30.474
needs be ancient atmosphere. There's nobody running around

1:00:30.474,1:00:34.339
with a hypodermic needle, squirting ancient atmosphere into the bubbles.

1:00:34.754,1:00:40.859
And we find certain of these cylinders to have 680,000 layers.

1:00:40.859,1:00:46.714
680,000 snow/winter/summer cycles.

1:00:47.606,1:00:53.752
How could it be that just 4,000 years ago all of this ice formed?

1:00:54.028,1:00:56.304
Let's just run some numbers.

1:00:57.504,1:01:00.701
This is some scenes from the lovely Antarctic.

1:01:01.532,1:01:05.371
Let's say we have 680,000 layers of snow ice

1:01:05.555,1:01:08.084
and 4,000 years since the Great Flood.

1:01:08.484,1:01:13.668
That would mean we'd need 170 winter-summer cycles

1:01:13.668,1:01:16.749
every year, for the last 4,000 years.

1:01:16.749,1:01:21.073
I mean, wouldn't someone have noticed that? Wow!

1:01:21.073,1:01:23.053
Wouldn't someone have noticed that there's been

1:01:23.053,1:01:26.032
winter-summer-winter-summer 170 times one year?

1:01:26.770,1:01:33.140
If we go to California, we find enormous stands of bristlecone pines.

1:01:33.863,1:01:38.375
Some of them are over 6,000 years old. 6,800 years old.

1:01:38.375,1:01:44.998
There's a famous tree in Sweden, Old Tjikko, is 9,550 years old.

1:01:45.382,1:01:53.051
How could these trees be there if there was an enormous flood just 4,000 years ago?

1:01:53.512,1:01:55.539
You can try this yourself, everybody.

1:01:56.123,1:01:58.526
Get, I mean, I don't mean to be mean to trees,

1:01:58.526,1:02:02.407
but get a sapling and put it under water for a year.

1:02:02.853,1:02:06.735
It will not survive in general. Nor will its seeds.

1:02:06.735,1:02:10.620
They just won't make it. So how could these trees

1:02:10.620,1:02:14.923
be that old if the Earth is only 4,000 years old?

1:02:15.276,1:02:18.300
Now, when we go to the Grand Canyon--which is an astonishing place

1:02:18.300,1:02:19.734
and I recommend to everybody in the world to someday visit the Grand Canyon--

1:02:19.734,1:02:25.932
you find layer upon layer of ancient rocks.

1:02:26.362,1:02:27.695
And if there was this enormous flood that you speak of,

1:02:27.695,1:02:35.165
wouldn't there have been churning and bubbling and roiling?

1:02:35.549,1:02:36.934
How would these things have settled out?

1:02:36.934,1:02:40.834
Your claim that they settled out in an extraordinary short amount of time

1:02:40.834,1:02:47.796
is for me, not satisfactory. You can look at these rocks. You can look at rocks that are younger.

1:02:47.796,1:02:54.784
You can go to seashores where there's sand. This is what geologists on the outside do,

1:02:54.784,1:02:58.865
study the rate at which soil is deposited at the end of rivers and deltas.

1:02:58.865,1:03:06.001
And we can see that it takes a long, long time for sediments to turn to stone.

1:03:06.001,1:03:11.157
Also, in this picture you can see where one type of sediment has intruded on another type.

1:03:11.157,1:03:18.282
Now, if that was uniform, wouldn't we expect it all to be even, without intrusion?

1:03:18.282,1:03:23.859
Furthermore, you can find places in the Grand Canyon where you see an ancient riverbed on that side

1:03:23.859,1:03:27.567
going to an ancient riverbed on that side and the Colorado River has cut through it.

1:03:27.567,1:03:33.782
And by the way, if this great flood drained through the Grand Canyon,

1:03:33.782,1:03:37.840
wouldn't there have been a Grand Canyon on every continent?

1:03:38.056,1:03:43.516
How could we not have Grand Canyons everywhere if this water drained away in this extraordinary

1:03:43.516,1:03:49.450
short amount of time? Four thousand years? Now when you look at these layers carefully,

1:03:50.326,1:03:56.702
you find these beautiful fossils. And when I say beautiful, I am inspired by them. They are remarkable

1:03:56.702,1:04:03.619
because we are looking at the past. You find down low. You'll find what you might consider

1:04:03.619,1:04:08.990
is, uh, rudimentary sea animals. Up above you'll find the famous trilobytes.

1:04:09.620,1:04:14.670
Above that you might find some clams, some oysters. And above that you find some mammals.

1:04:15.363,1:04:22.694
You never, ever find a higher animal mixed in with a lower one. You never find a lower one

1:04:22.694,1:04:28.434
trying to swim its way to a higher one. If it all happened in such an extraordinary short amount of time,

1:04:28.434,1:04:33.674
if this water drained away just like that, wouldn't we expect to see some turbulence?

1:04:33.674,1:04:41.557
And by the way, anyone here, really, if you can find one example of that, one example of that

1:04:41.557,1:04:47.882
anywhere in the world, the scientists of the world challenge you. They would embrace you. You would be a hero.

1:04:47.882,1:04:51.593
You would change the world if you could find one example of that anywhere.

1:04:52.100,1:04:56.492
People have looked, and looked and looked. They have not found a single one.

1:04:58.891,1:05:07.005
Now here's an interesting thing. These are fossil skulls that people have found all around the world.

1:05:07.005,1:05:13.330
It's by no means representative of all the fossil skulls that have been found, but these are all over the place.

1:05:13.869,1:05:23.778
Now, if you were to look at these, I can assure you, not any of them is a gorilla. Right?

1:05:24.993,1:05:33.642
If as Mr. Ham and his associates claim, there was just man and then everybody else, there were just

1:05:33.642,1:05:39.737
humans and all other species, where would you put modern humans among these skulls?

1:05:40.598,1:05:46.521
How did all these skulls get all over the earth in these extraordinary fashion? Where would you put us?

1:05:47.613,1:05:52.309
I can tell you we are on there and I encourage you, when you go home, to look it up.

1:05:54.600,1:06:04.770
Now, one of the extraordinary claims associated with Mr. Ham's worldview is that this giant boat

1:06:04.770,1:06:11.362
a very large wooden ship, went aground safely on a mountain in the Middle, what we now call the Middle East.

1:06:11.947,1:06:20.007
And so places like Australia are populated then by animals who somehow managed to get

1:06:20.514,1:06:25.191
from the Middle East all the way to Australia in the last 4,000 years.

1:06:26.422,1:06:32.397
Now that, to me, is an extraordinary claim. We would expect then, somewhere between the Middle East

1:06:32.397,1:06:37.617
and Australia, we would expect to find evidence of kangaroos. We would expect to find

1:06:38.417,1:06:43.336
some fossils, some bones in the last 4,000 years. Somebody would have been hopping along there

1:06:43.336,1:06:46.811
and died along the way, and we'd find them. And furthermore, there's a claim

1:06:46.811,1:06:52.440
that there was a land bridge that allowed these animals to get from Asia all the way

1:06:52.440,1:06:58.067
to the continent of Australia. And that land bridge has disappeared, has disappeared in the last

1:06:58.067,1:07:05.952
4,000 years. No navigator, no diver, no U.S. Navy submarine, no one has ever detected any evidence

1:07:05.952,1:07:11.776
of this, let alone any evidence of fossils of kangaroos. So, your expectation is not met.

1:07:12.467,1:07:20.342
It doesn't seem to hold up. So, let's see. If there are 4,000 years since Ken Ham's flood

1:07:21.142,1:07:27.445
and let's say, as he said many times, there are 7,000 kinds,

1:07:27.921,1:07:35.199
today the very, very lowest estimate is that there are about 8.7 million species.

1:07:35.199,1:07:39.677
But a much more reasonable estimate is it's 50 million, or even 100 million,

1:07:39.924,1:07:45.276
when you start counting the viruses and the bacteria and all the beetles that must be extant

1:07:45.276,1:07:51.712
in the tropical rain forests that we haven't found. So we'll take a number which I think is pretty reasonable,

1:07:51.712,1:07:59.919
16 million species today. If these came from 7,000 kinds,

1:07:59.919,1:08:03.424
let's say we have 7,000 subtracted from 15 million,

1:08:03.424,1:08:09.595
that's 15,993. If 4,000 years, we have 365.25 days a year,

1:08:10.425,1:08:15.520
we would expect to find 11 new species every day.

1:08:16.166,1:08:22.200
So you'd go out into your yard, you wouldn't just find a different bird, a new bird

1:08:22.200,1:08:26.589
you'd find a different kind of bird, a whole new species, a bird!

1:08:26.696,1:08:31.821
Every day, a new species of fish, a new species of organisms you can't see, and so on.

1:08:31.821,1:08:38.366
I mean, this would be enormous news. The last 4,000 years people would have seen these changes among us.

1:08:38.950,1:08:43.603
So the Cincinnati Enquirer, I imagine, would carry a column right next to the weather report:

1:08:43.603,1:08:50.239
Today's New Species, and it would list these 11 every day, but we see no evidence of that.

1:08:50.485,1:08:53.689
There's no evidence of these species. There simply isn't enough time.

1:08:54.474,1:08:58.884
Now as you may know, I was graduated from engineering school and I was,

1:08:58.884,1:09:07.187
I got a job at Boeing. I worked on 747s. I, okay everybody relax, I was very well supervised.

1:09:08.387,1:09:13.163
Everything's fine. There's a tube in the 747 I kind of think of that's my tube.

1:09:13.163,1:09:18.028
But that aside, I travelled the highways of Washington state quite a bit.

1:09:18.028,1:09:23.268
I was a young guy. I had a motorcycle. I used to go mountain climbing in Washington state... Oregon.

1:09:24.160,1:09:32.066
And you can drive along and find these enormous boulders on top of the ground, enormous rocks,

1:09:32.682,1:09:40.928
huge, sitting on top of the ground. Now, out there, in regular academic pursuits, regular geology,

1:09:41.774,1:09:46.491
people have discovered that there was, used to be a lake in what is now Montana

1:09:46.937,1:09:50.448
which we charmingly refer to as Lake Missoula.

1:09:50.448,1:09:54.590
It's not there now but the evidence for it, of course, if I may, overwhelming.

1:09:55.082,1:10:01.048
And so, an ice dam would form at Lake Missoula and once in a while it would break.

1:10:01.433,1:10:06.440
It would build up and break. And there were multiple floods in my old state of Washington state.

1:10:06.440,1:10:12.582
And, just, before we go on, let me just say, go Seahawks! That was very gratifying, very gratifying for me.

1:10:13.690,1:10:20.349
Anyway you drive along the road and there are these rocks. So, if as is asserted here at this facility,

1:10:20.918,1:10:25.059
that the heavier rocks would sink to the bottom during a flood event,

1:10:25.059,1:10:29.214
the big rocks, and especially their shape, instead of aerodynamic,

1:10:29.214,1:10:34.397
the hydrodynamic, the water changing shape, as water flows past,

1:10:34.397,1:10:38.944
you'd expect them to sink to the bottom. But here are these enormous rocks right on the surface.

1:10:38.944,1:10:42.714
And there's no shortage of them. If you go driving in Washington state or Oregon

1:10:42.714,1:10:49.831
they are readily available. So how could those be there if the Earth is just 4,000 years old.

1:10:49.831,1:10:53.206
How could they be there if this one flood caused that?

1:10:54.191,1:11:01.000
Another remarkable thing I'd like everybody to consider, alone inherent in this worldview,

1:11:01.770,1:11:10.570
is that somehow Noah and his family were able to build a wooden ship that would house

1:11:11.477,1:11:17.444
14,000 individuals. There were 7,000 kinds and then, there's a boy and a girl for each one of those,

1:11:18.028,1:11:22.536
so there's about 14,000... 8 people. And these people were unskilled.

1:11:23.167,1:11:26.629
As far as anybody knows they had never built a wooden ship before.

1:11:27.460,1:11:31.510
Furthermore, they had to get all these animals on there. And they had to feed them.

1:11:31.510,1:11:37.202
And I understand that Mr. Ham has some explanations for that, which I frankly find extraordinary but

1:11:39.002,1:11:45.627
this is the premise of the bit. And we can then run a test, a scientific test.

1:11:46.411,1:11:51.956
People in the early 1900s built an extraordinary, large wooden ship, the Wyoming.

1:11:51.956,1:11:59.615
It was a six-masted schooner, the largest one ever built. It had a motor on it for winching cables and stuff.

1:12:00.122,1:12:07.352
But this boat had a great difficulty. It was not as big as the Titanic, but it was a very long ship.

1:12:07.829,1:12:15.268
It would twist in the sea. It would twist this way, this way, and this way.

1:12:16.314,1:12:22.590
And in all that twisting, it leaked. It leaked like crazy. The crew could not keep the ship dry.

1:12:22.897,1:12:30.775
And indeed, it eventually foundered and sank, a loss of all 14 hands. So there were 14 crewmen

1:12:31.360,1:12:35.491
aboard a ship built by very, very skilled shipwrights in New England.

1:12:35.491,1:12:39.919
These guys were the best in the world at wooden shipbuilding. And they couldn't build

1:12:39.919,1:12:44.431
a boat as big as the Ark is claimed to have been.

1:12:45.123,1:12:51.361
Is that reasonable? Is that possible that the best shipbuilders in the world couldn't do

1:12:51.361,1:12:57.309
what eight unskilled people, men and their wives, were able to do?

1:12:57.939,1:13:06.596
If you visit the National Zoo, in Washington D.C., it's 163 acres. And they have 400 species.

1:13:06.596,1:13:12.055
By the way, this picture that you're seeing was taken by spacecraft in space, orbiting the Earth.

1:13:12.655,1:13:17.614
If you told my grandfather, let alone my father, that we had that capability,

1:13:17.614,1:13:21.569
they would have been amazed. That capability comes from our fundamental understanding

1:13:22.015,1:13:29.187
of gravity, of material science, of physics, and life science, where you go looking.

1:13:29.417,1:13:35.471
This place is often, as any zoo, is often deeply concerned and criticized for how it treats its animals.

1:13:36.317,1:13:44.725
They have 400 species on 163 acres, 66 hectares. Is it reasonable that Noah and his colleagues,

1:13:44.725,1:13:51.199
his family, were able to maintain 14,000 animals and themselves, and feed them, aboard a ship

1:13:51.199,1:13:53.724
that was bigger than anyone's ever been able to build?

1:13:54.832,1:14:02.534
Now, here's the thing, what we want in science, science as practiced on the outside,

1:14:03.380,1:14:11.102
is an ability to predict. We want to have a natural law that is so obvious and clear,

1:14:11.102,1:14:14.618
so well understood that we can make predictions about what will happen.

1:14:15.125,1:14:20.184
We can predict that we can put a spacecraft in orbit and take a picture of Washington D.C.

1:14:20.753,1:14:25.428
We can predict that if we provide this much room for an elephant, it will live healthily

1:14:25.428,1:14:30.454
for a certain amount of time. I'll give you an example.

1:14:32.977,1:14:38.345
In the explanation provided by traditional science, of how we came to be,

1:14:38.898,1:14:44.077
we find as Mr. Ham alluded to many times in his recent remarks,

1:14:44.077,1:14:49.480
we find a sequence of animals in what, generally, is called "the fossil record."

1:14:49.480,1:14:53.203
This would be to say when we look at the layers, that you would find in Kentucky,

1:14:53.203,1:14:58.161
you look at them carefully, you find a sequence of animals, a succession.

1:14:58.791,1:15:01.535
And as one might expect, when you are looking at old records

1:15:01.535,1:15:05.024
there's some pieces seem to be missing, a gap.

1:15:05.947,1:15:08.965
So scientists got to thinking about this.

1:15:09.289,1:15:14.157
There are lungfish that jump from pond to pond in Florida

1:15:14.157,1:15:15.499
and end up in people's swimming pools.

1:15:16.084,1:15:19.514
And there are amphibians, frogs and toads, croaking and carrying on.

1:15:19.944,1:15:25.918
And so people wondered if there wasn't a fossil or an organism,

1:15:25.918,1:15:28.912
an animal, that had lived, that had characteristics of both.

1:15:29.758,1:15:33.070
People over the years had found that in Canada,

1:15:33.762,1:15:36.530
there was clearly a fossil marsh--

1:15:36.683,1:15:39.463
a place that used to be a swamp that had dried out.

1:15:40.293,1:15:44.199
And they found all kinds of happy swamp fossils there:

1:15:44.199,1:15:48.745
ferns, organisms, animals, fish that were recognized.

1:15:49.314,1:15:52.469
And people realized that if this, with the age of the rocks there,

1:15:52.930,1:15:58.396
as computed by traditional scientists, with the age of the rocks there,

1:15:58.396,1:16:01.552
this would be a reasonable place to look for an animal,

1:16:01.890,1:16:07.319
a fossil of an animal that lived there. And, indeed, scientists found it.

1:16:07.749,1:16:10.949
Tiktaalik, this fish-lizard guy.

1:16:11.487,1:16:16.545
And they found several specimens, it wasn't one individual.

1:16:16.545,1:16:19.197
In other words, they made a prediction, that this animal

1:16:19.197,1:16:26.228
would be found and it was found. So far, Mr. Ham and his worldview,

1:16:26.228,1:16:29.893
the Ken Ham creation model, does not have this capability.

1:16:29.893,1:16:33.879
It cannot make predictions and show results.

1:16:34.263,1:16:38.191
Here's an extraordinary one that I find remarkable.

1:16:39.821,1:16:45.677
There are certain fish, the Topminnows, that have

1:16:45.677,1:16:51.023
the remarkable ability to have sex with other fish,

1:16:51.715,1:16:55.897
traditional fish sex, and they can have sex with themselves.

1:16:55.897,1:16:59.500
Now, one of the old questions in life science, everybody,

1:16:59.884,1:17:04.130
one of the old chin strokers is why does any organism,

1:17:04.838,1:17:12.645
whether you're an ash tree, a sea jelly, a squid, a marmot,

1:17:12.645,1:17:17.906
why does anybody have sex? I mean, there are more bacteria

1:17:17.906,1:17:21.426
in your tummy right now then there are humans on Earth.

1:17:21.826,1:17:23.466
And bacteria, they don't bother with that, man.

1:17:23.466,1:17:26.147
They split themselves in half, they get new bacteria!

1:17:26.147,1:17:29.999
Like, let's get her done! Let's go. But why does any--

1:17:29.999,1:17:34.388
think of all the trouble a rose bush goes to make a flower and the thorns

1:17:34.404,1:17:41.065
and the bees flying around, interacting--why does anybody bother with all that?

1:17:41.527,1:17:44.834
And the answer seems to be...your enemies.

1:17:45.634,1:17:51.565
And your enemies are not lions and tigers and bears...oh my!

1:17:51.857,1:17:55.674
No, your enemies are germs and parasites.

1:17:55.674,1:17:59.066
That's what's gonna get you. Germs and parasites.

1:17:59.727,1:18:05.693
My first cousin's son died tragically from essentially the flu.

1:18:05.693,1:18:08.632
This is not some story I heard about. This is my first cousin, once removed.

1:18:08.632,1:18:13.296
Because, apparently, the virus had the right genes to attack his genes.

1:18:13.296,1:18:16.701
So when you have sex you have a new set of genes.

1:18:16.701,1:18:20.451
You have a new mixture. So people studied these Topminnows.

1:18:20.989,1:18:24.695
And they found that the ones who reproduced sexually

1:18:25.310,1:18:29.586
had fewer parasites that the ones who reproduced on their own.

1:18:29.986,1:18:32.410
This Black Spot disease--wait, wait, there's more.

1:18:33.363,1:18:37.949
In these populations, with flooding and so on, when river ponds get isolated,

1:18:37.949,1:18:40.387
then they dry up, then the river flows again.

1:18:41.248,1:18:45.146
In between, some of the fish will have sex with other fish,

1:18:45.146,1:18:49.233
sometimes, and they'll have sex on their own, what's called asexually.

1:18:50.002,1:18:52.873
And those fish, the ones that are in between, sometimes this,

1:18:52.873,1:18:56.829
sometimes that, they have an intermediate number of infections.

1:18:57.659,1:19:02.962
In other words, the explanation provided by evolution made a prediction.

1:19:02.977,1:19:06.524
And the prediction's extraordinary and subtle, but there it is.

1:19:06.524,1:19:08.995
How else would you explain it?

1:19:08.995,1:19:14.498
And to Mr. Ham and his followers I say this is something we in science want.

1:19:14.498,1:19:18.078
We want the ability to predict. And your assertion

1:19:18.078,1:19:21.789
that there's some difference between the natural laws

1:19:21.789,1:19:24.580
that I use to observe the world today and the natural laws

1:19:24.580,1:19:29.867
that existed 4,000 years ago is extraordinary and unsettling.

1:19:31.313,1:19:34.984
I travel around. I have a great many family members

1:19:35.015,1:19:39.660
in Danville, Virginia, one of the U.S's most livable cities.

1:19:39.660,1:19:46.463
It's lovely. And I was driving along and there was a sign in front of a church:

1:19:46.970,1:19:50.107
"Big Bang theory? You got to be kidding me. God."

1:19:51.153,1:19:55.837
Now, everybody, why would someone at the church, a pastor for example,

1:19:56.468,1:20:03.212
put that sign up unless he or she didn't believe

1:20:03.212,1:20:06.761
that the big bang was a real thing? I just want to review,

1:20:06.761,1:20:09.588
briefly, with everybody why we accept,

1:20:09.973,1:20:13.462
in the outside world, why we accept the Big Bang.

1:20:16.285,1:20:22.180
Edwin Hubble, sorry, there you go,you gotta be kidding me God.

1:20:23.579,1:20:28.557
Edwin Hubble was sitting at Mount Wilson, which is up from Pasadena, California.

1:20:28.989,1:20:32.489
On a clear day you can look down and see where the Rose Parade goes.

1:20:32.966,1:20:34.564
It's that close to civilization.

1:20:35.179,1:20:39.978
But even in the early 1900's, the people who selected this site for astronomy

1:20:40.532,1:20:44.923
picked an excellent site. The clouds and smog are below you.

1:20:45.677,1:20:50.910
And Edwin Hubble sat there at this very big telescope night after night studying the heavens.

1:20:51.817,1:20:57.793
And he found that the stars are moving apart. The stars are moving apart.

1:20:58.824,1:21:06.904
And he wasn't sure why. But it was clear that the stars are moving farther and farther apart all the time.

1:21:07.704,1:21:10.658
So people talked about it for a couple decades.

1:21:11.473,1:21:15.521
And then eventually another astronomer, almost a couple decades, another astronomer

1:21:15.521,1:21:19.599
Fred Hoyle just remarked, "Well, it was like there was a big bang.

1:21:20.537,1:21:24.457
There was an explosion. This is to say; since everything's moving apart,

1:21:24.980,1:21:27.744
it's very reasonable that at one time they were all together.

1:21:28.221,1:21:32.216
And there's a place from whence, or rather whence, these things expanded."

1:21:32.863,1:21:34.427
And it was a remarkable insight.

1:21:35.074,1:21:38.502
But people went still questioning it for decades.

1:21:38.502,1:21:43.144
Scientists, conventional scientists, questioning it for decades.

1:21:44.790,1:21:51.342
These two researchers wanted to listen for radio signals from space--radio astronomy.

1:21:51.342,1:21:57.836
And this is while we have visible light for our eyes, there is a whole other bunch of waves of light

1:21:57.836,1:22:01.490
that are much longer. The microwaves in your oven are about that long.

1:22:01.490,1:22:07.735
The radar at the airport is about that long. Your FM radio signals about like this.

1:22:08.659,1:22:13.138
AM radio signals are a kilometer--they're a couple, several soccer fields.

1:22:14.354,1:22:21.442
They went out listening. And there was this hiss, this hisssssss, all the time

1:22:21.442,1:22:25.065
that wouldn't go away. And they thought "Oh! Doggone it. There's some loose

1:22:25.065,1:22:29.624
connector." They plugged in the connector. They rescrewed it. They made it tight.

1:22:30.054,1:22:31.849
They turned it this way. The hiss was still there.

1:22:31.849,1:22:33.334
They turned it that way. It was still there.

1:22:33.627,1:22:38.626
They thought it was pigeon droppings that had affected the reception of this "horn" it's called.

1:22:38.642,1:22:42.323
This thing is still there. It's in Basking Ridge, New Jersey.

1:22:42.323,1:22:49.219
It's a national historic site. And Arno Pinzius and Robert Wilson had found

1:22:49.372,1:22:54.879
this cosmic background sound that was predicted by astronomers.

1:22:55.248,1:22:58.935
Astronomers running the numbers, doing math, predicted

1:22:58.935,1:23:02.399
that in the cosmos would be left over this echo,

1:23:02.399,1:23:06.105
this energy, from the Big Bang that would be detectable.

1:23:06.690,1:23:13.801
And they detected it. We built the Cosmic Observatory for Background Emissions, the COBE spacecraft,

1:23:13.801,1:23:17.771
and it matched exactly, exactly the astronomers predictions.

1:23:18.725,1:23:21.715
You gotta respect that. It's a wonderful thing.

1:23:22.699,1:23:29.065
Now, along that line is some interest in the age of the earth.

1:23:29.496,1:23:34.284
Right now, it's generally agreed that the Big Bang happened 13.7 billion years ago.

1:23:35.592,1:23:40.906
What we can do on earth. These elements that we all know on the Periodic Table of Chemicals,

1:23:40.998,1:23:46.249
even ones we don't know, were created when stars explode.

1:23:46.356,1:23:51.242
And I look like nobody. But I attended a lecture by Hans Betta who won a Nobel

1:23:51.242,1:23:55.553
Prize for discovering the process by which stars create all these elements.

1:23:56.323,1:24:01.431
The one that interests me especially is our good friends Rubidium and Strontium.

1:24:02.385,1:24:06.320
Rubidium becomes Strontium spontaneously. It's an interesting thing to me.

1:24:07.197,1:24:11.410
A neutron becomes a proton. And it goes up the Periodic Table.

1:24:11.949,1:24:14.406
When lava comes out of the ground, molten lava,

1:24:14.991,1:24:18.587
and it freezes, turns to rock, when the melt solidifies,

1:24:18.587,1:24:22.780
or crystalizes, it locks the Rubidium and Strontium in place.

1:24:23.410,1:24:30.073
And so by careful assay, by careful, by being diligent, you can tell when the rock froze.

1:24:30.657,1:24:35.637
You can tell how old the Rubidium and Strontium are. And you can get an age for the earth.

1:24:36.083,1:24:42.144
When that stuff falls on fossils, you can get a very good idea of how old the fossils are.

1:24:42.144,1:24:46.452
I encourage you all to go to Nebraska, go to Ashfall State Park

1:24:46.821,1:24:51.455
and see the astonishing fossils. It looks like a Hollywood movie.

1:24:51.455,1:24:56.119
There are rhinoceroses. There are three-toed horses in Nebraska.

1:24:56.688,1:25:01.858
None of those animals are extant today. And they are buried, catastrophically, by a

1:25:01.858,1:25:05.131
volcano in what is now Idaho. Is now Yellowstone National Park.

1:25:05.131,1:25:07.829
What is called the hot spot. People call it the super-volcano.

1:25:08.552,1:25:12.557
And it's the remarkable thing. Apparently, as I can tell you, as a Northwesterner around

1:25:12.557,1:25:16.096
for Mount St. Helen's. For full disclosure I'm on the Mount St. Helen's Board.

1:25:16.989,1:25:20.128
When it (explosive sound), when it goes off it gives out a great deal of gas

1:25:20.390,1:25:24.622
that's toxic and knock these animals out. Looking for relief, they go to a watering

1:25:24.622,1:25:28.875
hole. And then when the ash comes they were all buried. It's an extraordinary place.

1:25:29.659,1:25:36.057
Now if in the bad old days, you had heart problems, they would right away cut you open.

1:25:36.919,1:25:42.953
Now, we use a drug based on Rubidium to look at the inside of your heart without cutting you open.

1:25:44.030,1:25:51.817
Now, my Kentucky friends, I want you to consider this. Right now, there is no place

1:25:51.817,1:25:57.061
in the Commonwealth of Kentucky to get a degree in this kind of nuclear medicine--

1:25:57.061,1:25:59.397
this kind of drugs associated with that.

1:25:59.967,1:26:03.927
I hope you find that troubling. I hope you're concerned about that.

1:26:04.481,1:26:10.660
You want scientifically literate students in your commonwealth for a better tomorrow for everybody.

1:26:11.552,1:26:15.478
You can, you can't get this here. You have to go out of state.

1:26:16.293,1:26:21.562
Now as far as the distance to stars. Understand this is very well understood.

1:26:22.315,1:26:26.743
We, it's February. We look at a star in February. We measure an angle to it.

1:26:26.943,1:26:31.406
We wait six months. We look at that same star again and we measure that angle.

1:26:31.406,1:26:36.655
It's the same way carpenters built this building. It's the same way surveyors surveyed the land that we're standing on.

1:26:37.116,1:26:41.957
And so by measuring the distance to a star, you can figure out how far away it is, that star,

1:26:41.957,1:26:46.381
and the stars beyond it, and the stars beyond that. There are billions of stars.

1:26:46.381,1:26:50.202
Billions of stars more than six thousand light years from here.

1:26:50.663,1:26:54.287
A light year is a unit of distance, not a unit of time.

1:26:54.933,1:27:00.982
There are billions of stars. Mr. Hamm, how could there be billions of stars more distant

1:27:00.982,1:27:04.916
than six thousand years, if the world's only six thousand years old?

1:27:05.208,1:27:12.137
It's an extraordinary claim. There's another astronomer, Adolphe Quetele, who remarked first

1:27:13.413,1:27:23.805
about the reasonable man. Is it reasonable that we have ice older by a factor of a hundred than you claim the earth is?

1:27:23.836,1:27:26.769
We have trees that have more tree rings than the earth is old.

1:27:27.123,1:27:32.983
We have rocks with Rubidium and Strontium, and Uranium-Uranium, and Potassium-Argon dating

1:27:32.998,1:27:36.669
that are far, far, far older than you claim the earth is.

1:27:36.884,1:27:43.326
Could anybody have built an ark that would sustain the better than any ark anybody was able to build on the earth?

1:27:44.172,1:27:48.402
So, if you're asking me, and I got the impression you were,

1:27:49.048,1:27:55.266
is Ken Hamm's creation model viable? I say "No! Absolutely not!"

1:27:55.742,1:28:01.672
Now, one last thing. You may not know that in the US Constitution, from the founding fathers,

1:28:02.396,1:28:06.158
is the sentence "to promote the progress of science and useful arts..."

1:28:08.281,1:28:11.840
Kentucky voters, voters who might be watching online,

1:28:12.024,1:28:16.838
in places like Texas, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kansas, please

1:28:16.838,1:28:19.761
you don't want to raise a generation of science students

1:28:19.761,1:28:23.796
who don't understand how we know our place in the cosmos,

1:28:23.796,1:28:26.052
our place in space, who don't understand natural law.

1:28:26.498,1:28:30.057
We need to innovate to keep the United States where it is in the world.

1:28:30.807,1:28:35.929
Thank you very much. (applause)

1:28:48.561,1:28:51.118
Moderator: That's a lot to take in. I hope everybody's holding up well.

1:28:51.565,1:28:55.027
That's a lot of information. What we're going to have now is a five minute

1:28:55.412,1:28:58.993
rebuttal time for each gentleman to address the other one's comments.

1:28:59.393,1:29:03.304
And then there will be a five minute counter rebuttal after that.

1:29:04.397,1:29:06.221
Things are going to start moving a little more quickly now.

1:29:06.221,1:29:10.776
So at this point in particular, I want to make sure we don't have applauding or anything else going on that slows it down.

1:29:11.145,1:29:14.804
So, Mr. Hamm, if you'd like to begin with your five minute rebuttal first.

1:29:25.140,1:29:30.124
Mr. Hamm: First of all, Bill, if I was to answer all the points that you brought up,

1:29:30.497,1:29:33.841
the moderator would think that I was going on for millions of years. (laughter)

1:29:34.041,1:29:35.378
So I can only deal with some of them.

1:29:35.778,1:29:39.373
And you mentioned the age of the earth a couple of times, so let me deal with that.

1:29:40.096,1:29:48.694
As I said in my presentation, you can't observe the age of the earth. I would say that comes under what we call historical origin science.

1:29:48.940,1:29:51.514
Now, just so you understand where I'm coming from.

1:29:52.037,1:29:56.782
Yes, we admit we build our origins from historical science on the Bible.

1:29:57.290,1:30:02.280
The Bible says God created in six days. A Hebrew word "yon" as it's used in Genesis 1

1:30:02.280,1:30:05.833
with evening/morning number means an ordinary day. Adam was made on day six.

1:30:06.387,1:30:09.737
And so, when you add up all those geneologies specifically given in the Bible

1:30:10.460,1:30:20.023
from Adam to Abraham you've got 2,000 years; from Abraham to Christ 2,000 years; from Christ to the present 2,000 years.

1:30:20.023,1:30:23.613
That's how we get 6,000 years. So that's where it comes from. Just so you know.

1:30:24.059,1:30:29.788
Now a lot of people say. Now, by the way, the earth's age is 4.5 billion years old.

1:30:30.618,1:30:34.737
And we have radioactive decay dating methods that found that.

1:30:35.368,1:30:38.283
But you see, we certainly observe radioactive decay

1:30:38.606,1:30:42.380
whether it's rubidium-strontium, whether it's uranium-lead, potassium-argon

1:30:42.733,1:30:45.627
But when you're talking about the past, we have a problem.

1:30:46.381,1:30:49.564
I'll give you a practical example. In Australia, there were engineers

1:30:49.564,1:30:53.163
that were trying to search out about a coal mine.

1:30:53.163,1:30:58.044
And so they drilled down and they found a basalt layer, a lava flow that had woody material in it--

1:30:58.044,1:31:04.387
branches and twigs and so on. And when Dr. Andrew Snelling, our PhD geologist,

1:31:04.387,1:31:08.519
sent that to a lab in Massachusetts in 1994, they used potassium-argon

1:31:08.519,1:31:10.688
dating and dated it at 45 million years old.

1:31:11.258,1:31:15.563
Well, he also sent the wood to the radio-carbon section of the same lab

1:31:15.563,1:31:20.069
and that dated at 45,000 years old. 45,000 year old wood in 45 million year old rock.

1:31:20.315,1:31:21.898
The point is there's a problem.

1:31:22.728,1:31:24.626
Let me give you another example of a problem.

1:31:25.241,1:31:29.692
There was a lava dome that started to form in the 80's after Mt. St. Helen's erupted.

1:31:30.385,1:31:36.568
And in 1994 Dr. Steve Austin, another PhD geologist, actually sampled the rock there.

1:31:37.121,1:31:45.127
He took whole rock, crushed it, sent it to the same lab actually, I believe, and got a date of .35 million years.

1:31:45.327,1:31:50.243
When he separated out the minerals amphibole and pyroxene and used potassium-argon dating,

1:31:50.535,1:31:56.903
he got .9 million and 2.8 million. My point is all these dating methods actually give all sorts of different dates.

1:31:56.903,1:32:01.937
In fact, different dating methods on the same rock, we can show, give all sorts of different dates.

1:32:02.230,1:32:04.811
See there's lots of assumptions in regard to radioactive dating.

1:32:04.872,1:32:09.409
Number one, for instance, the amounts of the parent and daughter isotopes at the beginning when the rock formed.

1:32:09.409,1:32:12.388
We have to know them. But you weren't there. See that's historical science.

1:32:12.696,1:32:20.368
Assumption 2: that all daughter atoms measured today must have only been derived in situ radioactive decay of parent atoms.

1:32:20.368,1:32:21.750
In other words it's a closed system.

1:32:21.750,1:32:24.270
But you don't know that. And there's a lot of evidence that that's not so.

1:32:24.809,1:32:28.710
Assumption Number 3: that the decay rates have remained a constant.

1:32:29.048,1:32:30.739
Now they're just some of them. There's others as well.

1:32:30.739,1:32:33.648
The point is there's lots of assumptions in regard to the dating methods.

1:32:33.648,1:32:39.495
So there's no dating method you can use that you can absolutely age date a rock.

1:32:39.495,1:32:41.768
There's all sorts of differences out there.

1:32:42.245,1:32:46.128
And I do want to address the bit you brought up about Christians believing in millions of years.

1:32:46.128,1:32:48.269
Yeah, there's a lot of Christians out there that believe in millions of years,

1:32:48.269,1:32:52.234
but I'd say they have a problem. I'm not saying they're not Christians, but

1:32:52.234,1:32:55.819
because salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ, not the age of the earth.

1:32:55.942,1:32:58.425
But there's an inconsistency with what the Bible teaches.

1:32:58.702,1:33:03.818
If you believe in millions of years, you've got death and bloodshed, suffering, and disease

1:33:04.325,1:33:07.810
over millions of years leading to man, because that's what you see in the fossil record.

1:33:07.810,1:33:11.208
The Bible makes it very clear death is a result of man's sin.

1:33:11.208,1:33:15.801
In fact, the first death was in the garden when God killed an animal, clothed Adam and Eve,

1:33:16.247,1:33:20.334
first blood sacrifice pointing towards what would happen with Jesus Christ.

1:33:20.642,1:33:23.759
He would be the one who would die once and for all.

1:33:23.759,1:33:27.153
Now if you believe in millions of years as a Christian, in the fossil record

1:33:27.153,1:33:30.948
there's evidence of animals eating each other, Bible says originally all the animals

1:33:30.948,1:33:35.346
and man were vegetarian. We weren't told we could eat meat until after the flood.

1:33:35.346,1:33:39.873
There's diseases represented in the fossil record like brain tumors, but the Bible

1:33:39.873,1:33:41.911
says when God made everything it was very good.

1:33:41.911,1:33:43.820
God doesn't call brain tumors very good.

1:33:44.174,1:33:47.909
There's fossilized thorns in the fossil record said to be hundreds of millions of years old,

1:33:47.909,1:33:50.742
the Bible says thorns came after the curse.

1:33:51.019,1:33:53.103
So these two things can't be true at the same time.

1:33:53.642,1:33:56.765
You know what? There's hundreds of dating methods out there, hundreds of them.

1:33:57.027,1:34:03.591
Actually, 90% of them contradict billions of years. And the point is, all such dating methods are fallible.

1:34:03.591,1:34:07.808
And I claim, there's only one infallible dating method, it's a witness who was there,

1:34:07.808,1:34:11.397
who knows everything, who told us. And that's from the word of God.

1:34:11.397,1:34:16.570
And that's why I would say that the earth is only 6,000 years. And, as Dr. Faulkner said,

1:34:16.570,1:34:20.221
there's nothing in astronomy, and certainly Dr. Snelling would say, there's nothing in geology

1:34:20.221,1:34:25.437
to contradict a belief in a young age for the earth and the universe.

1:34:25.837,1:34:28.397
Moderator: Thank you Mr. Ham. Mr. Nye, your five-minute rebuttal please.

1:34:29.227,1:34:32.098
Mr. Nye: Thank you very much. Let me start with the beginning.

1:34:32.667,1:34:37.014
If you find 45 million year old rock on top of 45 thousand year old trees,

1:34:37.014,1:34:42.507
maybe the rock slid on top. Maybe that's it. That seems much more reasonable explanation

1:34:42.507,1:34:49.599
than, "It's impossible." Then as far as dating goes, actually the methods are

1:34:49.599,1:34:54.850
very reliable. One of the mysteries, or interesting things that people in my business,

1:34:54.850,1:35:00.241
especially at the Planetary Society, are interested in is why all the asteroids seem to be

1:35:00.241,1:35:06.838
so close to the same date in age. It's 4.5, 4.6 billion years.

1:35:06.838,1:35:10.976
It's a remarkable thing. People at first expected a little more of a spread.

1:35:11.437,1:35:19.792
So, I understand that you take the Bible as written in English, translated countless,

1:35:20.007,1:35:26.012
not countless, but many, many times over the last three millenia as to be a more accurate,

1:35:26.012,1:35:29.061
more reasonable assessment of the natural laws we see around us

1:35:29.061,1:35:37.613
than what I and everybody in here can observe. That to me is unsettling, troubling.

1:35:37.951,1:35:46.924
And then about the disease thing, are the fish sinners? Have they done something wrong to get diseases?

1:35:48.155,1:35:54.536
That's sort of an extraordinary claim that takes me just a little past what I'm comfortable with.

1:35:55.074,1:36:00.739
And then, as far as you can't observe the past, I have to stop you right there.

1:36:00.739,1:36:02.380
That's what we do in astronomy.

1:36:02.641,1:36:06.081
All we can do in astronomy is look at the past.

1:36:06.373,1:36:12.912
By the way, you're looking at the past right now. Because the speed of light bounces off of me

1:36:12.912,1:36:18.557
and then gets to your eyes. And I'm delighted to see that the people in the back of the room

1:36:18.557,1:36:22.115
appear just that much younger than the people in the front.

1:36:23.853,1:36:31.980
So this idea that you can separate the natural laws of the past from the natural laws that we have now,

1:36:31.980,1:36:37.564
I think is at the heart of our disagreement. [br]I don't see how we're ever going to agree with that

1:36:37.564,1:36:43.932
if you insist that natural laws have changed. It's, for lack of a better word, it's magical.

1:36:44.408,1:36:50.287
And I have appreciated magic since I was a kid, but it's not really what we want

1:36:50.287,1:37:01.524
in conventional, mainstream science. So, your assertion that all the animals were vegetarians

1:37:02.570,1:37:09.790
before they got on the ark. That's really remarkable. I have not spent a lot of time with lions,

1:37:10.497,1:37:14.014
but I can tell they've got teeth that really aren't set up for broccoli.

1:37:16.276,1:37:22.165
That these animals were vegetarians til this flood is something that I would ask you

1:37:22.165,1:37:28.988
to provide a little more proof for. I give you the lion's teeth, you give me verses

1:37:28.988,1:37:33.530
as translated into English over, what, 30 centuries?

1:37:34.053,1:37:39.608
So, that's not enough evidence for me. If you've ever played telephone, I did, I remember very well

1:37:39.608,1:37:43.125
in kindergarten where you have a secret and you whisper it to the next person, to the next person,

1:37:43.125,1:37:50.520
to the next person. Things often go wrong. So it's very reasonable to me that instead of lions being vegetarians on the ark,

1:37:51.935,1:38:01.799
lions are lions, and the information that you used to create your world view is not consistent with

1:38:01.799,1:38:11.112
what I, as a reasonable man, would expect. So, I want everybody to consider the implications of this.

1:38:12.281,1:38:23.385
If we accept Mr. Ham's point of view, that the Bible as translated into American English,

1:38:24.631,1:38:31.144
serves as a science text, and that he and his followers will interpret that for you,

1:38:32.129,1:38:39.596
Just, I want you to consider what that means. It means that Mr. Ham's word or his interpretation

1:38:39.596,1:38:46.413
of these other words, is somehow to be more respected than what you can observe in nature.

1:38:46.413,1:38:50.174
Than what you can find literally in your backyard, in Kentucky.

1:38:50.912,1:38:58.154
It's a troubling and unsettling point of view, and it's one I very much like you to address when you come back.

1:38:58.815,1:39:03.829
As far as the five races that you mentioned, it's kind of the same thing.

1:39:04.336,1:39:07.966
The five races were claimed by people who were of European descent,

1:39:07.966,1:39:12.031
and said, "Hey, we're the best! Check us out!" And that turns out to be,

1:39:12.031,1:39:16.809
if you've ever traveled anywhere or done anything, not to be that way.

1:39:16.809,1:39:19.087
People are much more alike than they are different.

1:39:19.518,1:39:25.977
So, are we supposed to take your word for English words translated over the last 30 centuries,

1:39:26.485,1:39:29.302
instead of what we can observe in the universe around us?

1:39:30.332,1:39:33.878
Moderator: Very good. And Mr. Ham, would you like to offer your five minute counter rebuttal?

1:39:37.601,1:39:41.070
Ken Ham: Uh, first of all, Bill, just so, I just don't want a misunderstanding here,

1:39:41.454,1:39:47.258
and that is, the 45,000-year-old wood, or supposedly 45,000 was inside the basalt.

1:39:47.673,1:39:54.473
Um, so, it was encased in the basalt. Uh, and that's why I was making that particular point.

1:39:54.919,1:39:59.531
And I would also say that natural law hasn't changed. As I talked about, you know,

1:39:59.531,1:40:03.693
I said we had the laws of logic, the uniformity of nature. And that only makes sense

1:40:03.693,1:40:07.549
within a biblical worldview anyway, of a creator God, who set up those laws,

1:40:07.549,1:40:11.237
and that's why we can do good experimental science, because we assume those laws are true,

1:40:11.237,1:40:20.316
and they'll be true tomorrow. I do want to say this. that you said a few times, you know,

1:40:20.316,1:40:26.094
Ken Ham's view or model. It's not just Ken Ham's model. We have a number of PhD scientists

1:40:26.094,1:40:31.479
on our own staff. I quoted, had video quotes, from some scientists.

1:40:31.479,1:40:40.085
It's Dr. Damadian's model. It's Dr. Fabich's model. It's Dr. Faulkner's model. It's Dr. Snelling's model.

1:40:40.085,1:40:44.838
It's Dr. Purdom's model. And so it goes on, in other words. And you go on our website,

1:40:44.838,1:40:50.804
and there are lots of creation scientists who agree with exactly what we're saying concerning

1:40:50.804,1:40:56.731
the Bible's account of creation. So it's not just "my model" in that sense.

1:40:58.392,1:41:05.310
There is so much that I can say, but, as I listen to you, I believe you're confusing terms

1:41:05.310,1:41:11.040
in regard to species and kinds. Because we're not saying that God created all those species.

1:41:11.040,1:41:15.967
We're saying God created kinds. And we're not saying species got on the ark, we're saying kinds.

1:41:15.967,1:41:19.757
In fact, we've had researchers working on what is a kind. For instance, there's a number of papers,

1:41:19.757,1:41:23.591
published on our website, where, for instance, they look at dogs. And they say, well, this one

1:41:23.591,1:41:28.378
breeds with this one, with this one, with this one. And you can look at all the papers around the world

1:41:28.378,1:41:32.019
and you can connect them all together and say that obviously represents one kind.

1:41:32.019,1:41:36.555
In fact, as they have been doing that research, they have predicted probably less than actually a thousand

1:41:36.555,1:41:42.043
kinds were on Noah's ark, which means just over 2,000 animals. And the average size of a land animal

1:41:42.043,1:41:48.371
is not that big so, you know, there was plenty of room on the ark. I also believe that

1:41:48.371,1:41:52.982
a lot of what you were saying was really illustrating my point. Uh, you were talking about tree rings

1:41:52.982,1:41:58.255
and ice layers and, just talking about kangaroos getting to Australia, and all sorts of things like that.

1:41:58.255,1:42:03.416
But see, we're talking about the past, when we weren't there. We didn't see those tree rings actually forming.

1:42:03.416,1:42:10.094
We didn't see those layers being laid down. You know, in 1942, for instance, there were some planes

1:42:10.094,1:42:15.198
that landed on the ice in Greenland. They found them, what, 46 years later, I think it was,

1:42:15.198,1:42:20.132
three miles away from the original location with 250 feet of ice buried on top of them.

1:42:20.132,1:42:24.476
So, ice can build up catastrophically. If you assume one layer a year, or something like that,

1:42:24.476,1:42:30.021
it's like the dating methods. You are assuming things in regard to the past that aren't necessarily true.

1:42:30.621,1:42:39.188
In regard to lions and teeth, bears, most bears have teeth very much like a lion or tiger, and yet, most bears

1:42:39.188,1:42:42.879
are primarily vegetarian. The panda, if you look at its teeth, you'd say, maybe it should be a

1:42:42.879,1:42:48.398
savage carnivore. It eats mainly bamboo. The little fruit bat in Australia has really sharp teeth,

1:42:48.398,1:42:51.447
looks like a savage little creature, and it rips into fruit.

1:42:51.447,1:42:56.432
Uh, so, just cause an animal has sharp teeth doesn't mean it's a meat eater. It means it has sharp teeth.

1:42:56.786,1:43:03.063
Uh, so again, it really comes down to our interpretation of these things.

1:43:03.247,1:43:07.414
I think too, in regard to the Missoula, uh, example that you gave, you know,

1:43:07.414,1:43:10.160
creationists do believe there's been post-flood catastrophism.

1:43:10.976,1:43:17.825
Noah's flood, certainly, was a catastrophic event. But then there's been post-flood catastrophism since that time as well.

1:43:18.148,1:43:22.166
And again, in regard to historical science, why would you say Noah was unskilled?

1:43:22.166,1:43:28.848
I mean, I didn't meet Noah, and neither did you. And you know, really, it's an evolutionary view of origins I believe

1:43:28.848,1:43:31.995
cause you're thinking in terms people before us aren't as good as us.

1:43:31.995,1:43:37.098
Hey, there are civilizations that existed in the past, and we look at their technology,

1:43:37.098,1:43:41.098
and we can't even understand today how they did some of the things that they did.

1:43:41.098,1:43:45.177
Who says Noah couldn't build a big boat? By the way, the Chinese and the Egyptians built boats.

1:43:45.177,1:43:49.085
In fact, some of our research indicates that some of the wooden boats that were built

1:43:49.085,1:43:52.827
had three layers interlocking so they wouldn't twist like that and leak, which is why,

1:43:52.827,1:43:58.876
here at the Creation Museum, we have an exhibit on the ark, where we've rebuilt 1% of the ark to scale

1:43:59.199,1:44:03.946
and shown three interlocking layers like that. And one last thing, concerning the speed of light,

1:44:04.438,1:44:09.895
and that is, I'm sure you're aware of the horizon problem. And that is, from a Big Bang perspective,

1:44:09.895,1:44:15.428
even the secularists have a problem of getting light and radiation out to the universe

1:44:15.428,1:44:20.620
to be able to exchange with the rest of the universe, to get that even microwave background radiation.

1:44:20.620,1:44:27.123
On their model, 15 billion years or so, they can only get it about halfway.

1:44:27.123,1:44:32.128
And that's why they have inflation theories, which means, everyone has a problem concerning the light issue.

1:44:32.128,1:44:35.769
There's things people don't understand. And we have some models on our website

1:44:35.769,1:44:39.063
by some of our scientists to help explain those sorts of things.

1:44:40.186,1:44:41.792
Moderator: Mr. Nye, your counter rebuttal.

1:44:42.808,1:44:45.040
Bill Nye: Thank you Mr. Ham, but I'm completely unsatisfied.

1:44:45.871,1:44:53.526
You did not, in my view, address this fundamental question. 680,000 years of snow ice layers

1:44:53.526,1:44:59.590
which require winter summer cycle. Let's say you have 2,000 kinds instead of seven.

1:44:59.590,1:45:06.031
That makes the problem even more extraordinary, multiplying eleven by what's, three and a half?

1:45:06.554,1:45:13.441
We get to 35... 40 species every day that we don't see, they're not extant.

1:45:13.441,1:45:19.991
In fact, you probably know we're losing species due to mostly human activity and the loss of habitat.

1:45:21.037,1:45:25.601
Then, as far as Noah being an extraordinary shipwright, I'm very skeptical.

1:45:25.786,1:45:32.611
The shipwrights, my ancestors, the Nye family in New England, took, spent their whole life learning to make ships.

1:45:33.304,1:45:38.556
I mean, it's very reasonable, perhaps, to you that Noah had superpowers

1:45:38.556,1:45:45.683
and was able to build this extraordinary craft with seven family members, but to me, it's just not reasonable.

1:45:47.529,1:45:53.088
Then, uh, by the way, the fundamental thing we disagree on, Mr. Ham,

1:45:53.088,1:46:00.821
is this nature of what you can prove to yourself. This is to say, when people make assumptions

1:46:01.913,1:46:06.577
based on radiometric data, when they make assumptions about the expanding universe,

1:46:06.577,1:46:13.043
when they make assumptions about the rate at which genes change in populations of bacteria

1:46:13.043,1:46:20.117
in laboratory growth media, they are making assumptions based on previous experience.

1:46:20.117,1:46:25.726
They're not coming out of whole cloth. So, next time you have a chance to speak,

1:46:25.726,1:46:35.171
I encourage you to explain to us why... why we should accept your word for it that natural law changed

1:46:36.878,1:46:43.691
just 4,000 years ago, completely. And there's no record of it. You know, there are pyramids that are older than that.

1:46:43.691,1:46:50.892
There are human populations that are far older than that, with traditions that go back farther that that.

1:46:51.415,1:46:55.925
And it's just not reasonable to me that everything changed 4,000 years ago.

1:46:55.925,1:47:02.170
By everything, I mean the species, the surface of the Earth, the stars in the sky,

1:47:02.831,1:47:06.830
and the relationship of all the other living things on Earth to humans.

1:47:06.830,1:47:10.548
It's just not reasonable to me that everything changed like that. (Snaps fingers.)

1:47:11.455,1:47:15.284
And another thing I would very much appreciate you addressing:

1:47:16.299,1:47:21.410
there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious. And I respect that.

1:47:21.994,1:47:28.041
People get tremendous community and comfort and nurture and support from their religious fellows

1:47:28.041,1:47:31.813
in their communities, in their faiths, in their churches.

1:47:32.397,1:47:35.020
And yet, they don't accept your point of view.

1:47:35.943,1:47:42.581
There are Christians who don't accept that the Earth could somehow be this extraordinary young age

1:47:42.581,1:47:48.520
because of all the evidence around them. And so, what is to become of them, in your view?

1:47:49.366,1:47:56.620
And by the way, this thing started, as I understand it, Ken Ham's creation model is based on the Old Testament.

1:47:57.127,1:48:01.652
So when you bring in, I'm not a theologian, when you bring in the New Testament,

1:48:01.652,1:48:09.059
isn't that little, uh, out of the box? I'm looking for explanations of the creation of the world

1:48:09.059,1:48:17.393
as we know it, uh, based on what I'm gonna call science. Not historical science, not observational science.

1:48:17.393,1:48:23.369
Science: things that each of us can do akin to what we do, we're trying to outguess the characters

1:48:23.369,1:48:30.668
on murder mystery shows, on crime scene investigation, especially.

1:48:31.468,1:48:34.770
What is to become of all those people, who don't see it your way?

1:48:35.540,1:48:41.657
For us, in the scientific community, I remind you, that when we find an idea that's not tenable,

1:48:41.657,1:48:49.434
that doesn't work, that doesn't fly, doesn't hold water, whatever idiom you'd like to embrace, we throw it away.

1:48:49.634,1:48:54.980
We are delighted. That's why I say, if you can find a fossil that has swum between the layers, bring it on!

1:48:55.687,1:49:00.806
You would change the world. If you could show that somehow the microwave background radiation

1:49:00.806,1:49:06.428
is not a result of the Big Bang, come on! Write your paper. Tear it up!

1:49:07.412,1:49:14.270
So, your view, that we're supposed to take your word for this book written centuries ago,

1:49:14.270,1:49:20.993
translated into American English, is somehow more important that what I can see with my own eyes,

1:49:20.993,1:49:27.304
is an extraordinary claim. And, for those watching online, especially, I want to remind you

1:49:27.304,1:49:31.158
that we need scientists, and especially engineers for the future.

1:49:31.727,1:49:36.762
Engineers use science to solve problems and make things. We need these people

1:49:36.777,1:49:40.833
so that the United States can continue to innovate and continue to be a world leader.

1:49:41.340,1:49:45.717
We need innovation, and that needs science education. Thank you.

1:49:46.024,1:49:51.367
Moderator: All right. Thank you both. Uh, now we're going to get to the things moving a little bit faster.

1:49:51.629,1:49:55.390
I think they might be quite interesting here. It's 40 to 45 minutes, maybe a little bit more, actually.

1:49:55.390,1:50:00.379
We'll have a little more. For questions and answers submitted by our audience here in the Creation Museum.

1:50:00.379,1:50:04.787
Beforehand, we handed out these cards to everyone. I shuffled them here in the back,

1:50:04.787,1:50:07.951
and in fact, I dropped a lot of them, and then I scooped them up again.

1:50:07.951,1:50:13.935
And if you saw me sorting through them here, it was to get a pile for Mr. Nye and a pile for Mr. Ham,

1:50:14.319,1:50:18.916
so that we can alternate reasonably between them. Other than that, the only reason I will skip over one

1:50:18.916,1:50:23.953
is if I can't read it, or if it's a question that I don't know how to read because it doesn't seem to make any sense,

1:50:23.953,1:50:27.247
which sometimes happens just because of the way people write. (Audience laughs.)

1:50:27.247,1:50:31.448
What's going to happen is we're gonna go back and forth between Mr. Nye and Mr. Ham.

1:50:31.448,1:50:36.797
Each debater will have two minutes to answer the question addressed to him,

1:50:36.797,1:50:41.846
and then the other will have one minute to also answer the question, even though it was addressed to the other man.

1:50:41.846,1:50:44.671
And I did pull one card aside here, because I noticed it was to both men.

1:50:44.671,1:50:49.105
So we may be able to get to that at some point. Mr. Ham, you've been up first, if you'll hop up first this time.

1:50:49.105,1:50:52.449
And Mr. Nye, you can stand by for your responses. Two minutes.

1:50:52.802,1:51:00.277
How does creationism account for the celestial bodies: planets, stars, moons moving further and further apart?

1:51:00.277,1:51:03.209
And what function does that serve in the grand design?

1:51:04.870,1:51:10.163
Ken Ham: Well, when it comes to looking at the universe, of course, we believe, that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

1:51:10.163,1:51:15.514
And I believe our creationist astronomers would say, "Yeah, you can observe the universe expanding."

1:51:16.067,1:51:20.743
Why God is doing that? In fact, in Bible it even says He stretches out the heavens.

1:51:20.743,1:51:24.894
And seems to indicate that there is an expansion of the universe.

1:51:24.894,1:51:30.864
And so, we would say, yeah, you can observe that. That fits with what we call observational science.

1:51:30.864,1:51:35.231
Exactly why God did it that way? I can't answer that question, of course,

1:51:35.231,1:51:40.222
because, you know, the Bible says that God made the heavens for his glory.

1:51:40.222,1:51:47.367
And that's why he made the stars that we see out there. And it's to tell us how great He is and how big He is.

1:51:47.367,1:51:53.316
And in fact, I think that's the thing about the universe. The universe is so large, so big out there.

1:51:53.316,1:51:59.139
One of our planetarium programs looks at this. We go in and show you how large the universe is.

1:51:59.386,1:52:05.614
And I think it shows us how great God is, how big He is, that He's an all-powerful God,

1:52:05.614,1:52:12.316
He's an infinite God, an infinite, all-knowing God who created the universe to show us his power.

1:52:12.316,1:52:16.325
I mean, can you imagine that, and the thing that's really remarkable in the Bible.

1:52:16.571,1:52:20.993
For instance, it says on the fourth day of creation, and oh, he made the stars also.

1:52:21.285,1:52:26.773
It's almost like, "Oh, by the way, I made the stars." Um, and just to show us He's an all-powerful God.

1:52:26.773,1:52:31.494
He's an infinite God. So, "I made the stars." And he made them to show us how great He is.

1:52:31.494,1:52:35.478
And He is. He's an infinite creator God. And the more that you understand what that means,

1:52:35.478,1:52:41.464
that God is all-powerful, infinite, you stand back in awe. You realize how small we are.

1:52:41.464,1:52:48.440
You realize, wow, that God would consider this planet, is so significant that he created human beings here,

1:52:48.440,1:52:52.920
knowing they would sin, and yet stepped into history to die for us and be raised from the dead.

1:52:53.536,1:52:57.349
Our verse, the free gift of salvation. Wow! What a God!

1:52:57.349,1:53:00.601
And that's what I would say when I see the universe as it is.

1:53:01.017,1:53:02.858
Moderator: Mr. Nye, one minute. And your response?

1:53:03.766,1:53:11.101
Bill Nye: There's a question that troubles us all from the time when we are absolutely youngest and first able to think.

1:53:11.331,1:53:15.008
And that is, where did we come from? Where did I come from?

1:53:15.577,1:53:21.239
And this question is so compelling that we've invented the science of astronomy.

1:53:21.546,1:53:24.669
We've invented life science. We've invented physics.

1:53:24.684,1:53:31.212
We've discovered these natural laws so that we can learn more about our origin and where we came from.

1:53:31.519,1:53:38.392
To you, when it says, He invented the stars also, that's satisfying. You're done.

1:53:38.930,1:53:43.518
Oh, good. Okay. To me, when I look at the night sky, I want to know what's out there.

1:53:43.518,1:53:50.016
I'm driven. I want to know if what's out there is any part of me, and indeed, it is.

1:53:50.723,1:53:55.128
The "oh, by the way" I find compelling you are satisfied.

1:53:55.128,1:54:00.463
And the big thing I want from you, Mr. Ham, is can you come up with something that you can predict?

1:54:00.463,1:54:04.860
Do you have a creation model that predicts something that will happen in nature?

1:54:04.860,1:54:08.385
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Nye, the next question is for you.

1:54:08.831,1:54:11.703
How did the atoms that created the Big Bang get there?

1:54:12.395,1:54:20.365
Bill Nye: This is the great mystery. You've hit the nail on the head. No, this is so, where did, what was before the Big Bang?

1:54:20.795,1:54:25.507
This is what drives us. This is what we want to know. Let's keep looking. Let's keep searching.

1:54:26.015,1:54:31.382
Uh, when I was young, it was presumed that the universe was slowing down.

1:54:31.674,1:54:37.697
It's a big bang, phrooo! Except it's in outer space, there's no air, so (quietly) it goes out like that.

1:54:38.420,1:54:44.638
And so people presumed that it would slow down, that the universe, the gravity, especially,

1:54:44.638,1:54:48.757
would hold everything together and maybe it's going to come back and explode again.

1:54:48.757,1:54:52.335
And people went out. And the mathematical expression is: is the universe flat?

1:54:52.335,1:54:58.134
It's a mathematical expression. Will the universe slow down, slow down, slow down asymptotically without ever stopping?

1:54:58.687,1:55:06.492
Well, in 2004, Saul Perlmutter and his colleagues went looking for the rate at which the universe was slowing down.

1:55:07.707,1:55:12.135
Let's go out and measure it. And we're doing it with this extraordinary system of telescopes around the world,

1:55:12.642,1:55:19.354
looking at the night sky, looking for supernovae. These are a standard brightness that you can infer distances with.

1:55:19.969,1:55:25.566
And the universe isn't slowing down. It's accelerating! The universe is accelerating in its expansion.

1:55:25.566,1:55:31.242
And do you know why? Nobody knows why! (audience laughs) Nobody knows why.

1:55:31.795,1:55:37.972
And you'll hear the expression nowadays, dark energy, dark matter, which are mathematical ideas that seem

1:55:37.972,1:55:45.298
to reckon well with what seems to be the gravitational attraction of clusters of stars, galaxies, and their expansion.

1:55:45.482,1:55:52.302
And then, isn't it reasonable that whatever's out there, causing the universe to expand, is here also?

1:55:52.841,1:55:55.022
And we just haven't figured out how to detect it.

1:55:55.468,1:56:01.724
My friends, suppose a science student from the commonwealth of Kentucky pursues a career in science

1:56:02.185,1:56:08.896
and finds out the answer to that deep question? Where did we come from? What was before the Big Bang?

1:56:08.896,1:56:13.919
To us, this is wonderful and charming and compelling. This is what makes us get up and go to work everyday,

1:56:14.042,1:56:16.282
is to try to solve the mysteries of the universe.

1:56:16.282,1:56:18.820
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham, a response?

1:56:19.036,1:56:22.242
Ken Ham: Uh, Bill, I just want to let you know that there actually is

1:56:22.242,1:56:27.818
a book out there that actually tells us where matter came from. (Audience laughs.)

1:56:27.818,1:56:33.640
And, the very first sentence in that book says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

1:56:34.040,1:56:39.293
And really, that's the only thing that makes sense. That's the only thing that makes sense of why, not just matter is here,

1:56:39.293,1:56:49.209
where it came from, but why matter, when you look at it, we have information and language systems that build life.

1:56:49.270,1:56:53.842
We're not just matter. And where did that come from? Because matter can never produce information.

1:56:53.842,1:56:57.849
Matter can never produce a language system. Languages only come from intelligence.

1:56:58.372,1:57:03.923
Information only comes from information. The Bible tells us that the things we see, like in the book of Hebrews,

1:57:03.923,1:57:09.931
are made from things that are unseen. An infinite creator God who created the universe,

1:57:09.931,1:57:14.623
created matter, the energy, space, mass, time universe, and created the information for life.

1:57:14.623,1:57:16.164
It's the only thing that makes logical sense.

1:57:17.672,1:57:21.432
Moderator: Alright, Mr. Ham, a new question here. The overwhelming majority of people in the

1:57:21.432,1:57:25.816
scientific community have presented valid, physical evidence, such as carbon dating and fossils,

1:57:25.816,1:57:33.077
to support evolutionary theory. What evidence besides the literal word of the Bible supports creationism?

1:57:34.213,1:57:37.500
Ken Ham: Well, first of all, you know, I often hear people talking about "the majority".

1:57:37.992,1:57:42.206
I would agree that the majority of scientists would believe

1:57:42.206,1:57:45.398
in millions of years and the majority would believe in evolution,

1:57:45.398,1:57:48.847
but there's a large group out there that certainly don't.

1:57:49.154,1:57:57.217
But, first thing I want to say is, it's not the majority that's the judge of truth.

1:57:57.217,1:58:01.169
There have been many times in the past when the majority have got it wrong.

1:58:01.169,1:58:04.404
The majority of doctors in England once thought after you cut up bodies,

1:58:04.404,1:58:06.470
you could go and deliver babies and wondered why

1:58:06.470,1:58:08.020
the death rate was high in hospitals,

1:58:08.020,1:58:13.286
till they found out about diseases caused by bacteria and so on.

1:58:13.286,1:58:17.517
The majority once thought the appendix was a leftover organ

1:58:17.517,1:58:20.662
from evolutionary ancestry, so, you know, when it's okay,

1:58:20.662,1:58:23.757
rip it out. When it's diseased, rip it out. Rip it out anyway.

1:58:24.634,1:58:28.358
But these days we know that it's for the immune system

1:58:28.358,1:58:29.523
and it's very, very important.

1:58:29.523,1:58:33.617
So, you know, it's important to understand that just because

1:58:33.617,1:58:36.873
the majority believe something doesn't mean that it's true.

1:58:37.150,1:58:39.778
And then, I'm sorry, I missed the last part of the question there.

1:58:40.947,1:58:43.698
Moderator: What was the--let me make sure I have the right question here--

1:58:44.468,1:58:47.180
So what evidence besides the literal word of the bible--

1:58:47.518,1:58:51.004
Ken Ham: Okay, one of the things I was doing was making predictions.[br]

1:58:51.004,1:58:53.300
I made some predictions. There's a whole list of predictions.

1:58:53.577,1:58:56.673
And I was saying, if the Bible's right and we're all descendants

1:58:56.673,1:58:59.457
of Adam and Eve, there's one race. And I went through and talked about that.

1:59:00.180,1:59:02.537
If the Bible's right and God made kinds, I went through

1:59:02.537,1:59:06.597
and talked about that. And, so, really that question comes down

1:59:06.597,1:59:09.572
to the fact that we're again dealing with the fact that there's aspects

1:59:09.572,1:59:12.259
about the past that you can't scientifically prove because

1:59:12.259,1:59:14.645
you weren't there, but observational science in the present.

1:59:14.753,1:59:18.246
Bill and I all have the same observational science. We're here in the present.

1:59:18.246,1:59:21.714
We can see radioactivity, but when it comes to then talking about the past,

1:59:21.714,1:59:23.896
you're not going to be scientifically able to prove that.

1:59:23.896,1:59:28.340
And that's what we need to admit. We can be great scientists in the present,

1:59:28.340,1:59:32.774
as the examples I gave you of Dr. Damadian or Dr. Stuart Burgess

1:59:32.774,1:59:36.567
or Dr. Fabich and we can be investigating the present.

1:59:36.890,1:59:38.800
Understanding the past is a whole different matter.

1:59:39.292,1:59:40.592
Moderator: Mr. Nye, one minute response.

1:59:41.299,1:59:45.824
Thank you, Mr. Ham. I have to disabuse you of a fundamental idea.

1:59:46.486,1:59:51.819
If a scientist, if anybody, makes a discovery that changes

1:59:52.065,1:59:56.413
the way people view natural law, scientists embrace him or her!

1:59:57.075,2:00:01.069
This person's fantastic. Louis Pasteur--you made reference to germs.

2:00:01.069,2:00:07.053
Now, if you find something that changes, that disagrees with common thought,

2:00:07.053,2:00:08.939
that's the greatest thing going in science.

2:00:08.939,2:00:12.095
We look forward to that change. We challenge you--

2:00:12.095,2:00:15.003
tell us why the universe is accelerating.

2:00:15.003,2:00:18.245
Tell us why these mothers were getting sick.

2:00:18.245,2:00:24.724
And we found an explanation for it. And the idea that the majority

2:00:25.170,2:00:28.283
has sway in science is true only up a point.

2:00:28.283,2:00:30.511
And then, the other thing I just want to point out, what you may

2:00:30.511,2:00:34.459
have missed in evolutionary explanations of life

2:00:34.459,2:00:37.515
is it's the mechanism by which we add complexity.

2:00:37.868,2:00:40.663
The earth is getting energy from the sun all the time.

2:00:40.863,2:00:44.871
And that energy is used to make lifeforms somewhat more complex.

2:00:44.871,2:00:45.627
Moderator: And that's time.

2:00:46.519,2:00:47.572
New question for you, Mr. Nye.

2:00:48.156,2:00:51.121
How did consciousness come from matter?

2:00:51.829,2:00:55.064
Bill Nye: Don't know. This is a great mystery.

2:00:55.895,2:01:02.537
A dear friend of mine is a neurologist. She studies the nature of consciousness.

2:01:03.137,2:01:09.724
Now I will say I used to embrace a joke about dogs.

2:01:10.016,2:01:11.464
I love dogs. I mean, who doesn't?

2:01:12.249,2:01:15.080
And you can say, this guy remarked,

2:01:15.080,2:01:19.933
"I've never seen a dog paralyzed by self-doubt." Actually, I have.

2:01:20.886,2:01:27.672
Furthermore, the thing that we celebrate, there are three sundials

2:01:27.672,2:01:30.498
on the planet Mars that bare an inscription to the future:

2:01:30.975,2:01:35.108
"To those who visit here, we wish you a safe journey and the joy of discovery."

2:01:35.108,2:01:38.211
It's inherently optimistic about the future of humankind,

2:01:38.211,2:01:41.945
that we will one day walk on Mars. But the joy of discovery...

2:01:42.606,2:01:46.566
that's what drives us. The joy of finding out what's going on.

2:01:46.566,2:01:50.071
So we don't know where consciousness comes from. But we want to find out.

2:01:50.071,2:01:54.388
Furthermore, I'll tell you it's deep within us. I claim that I

2:01:54.388,2:01:57.696
have spent time with dogs that have had the joy of discovery!

2:01:58.311,2:02:03.094
It's way inside us! We have one ancestor, as near as we can figure.

2:02:03.094,2:02:08.005
And, by the way, if you can find what we in science call "a second genesis",

2:02:08.343,2:02:11.684
this is to say, "Did life start another way on the earth?"

2:02:11.991,2:02:14.976
There are researchers at Astrobiology Institute,

2:02:14.976,2:02:17.441
researchers supported by NASA, your tax dollars,

2:02:17.764,2:02:19.898
that are looking for answers to that very question.

2:02:19.898,2:02:21.636
Is it possible that life could start another way?

2:02:22.375,2:02:26.025
Is there some sort of life form akin to science fiction

2:02:26.025,2:02:29.882
that's crystal instead of membranous. This would be a fantastic

2:02:29.882,2:02:31.861
discovery that would change the world!

2:02:32.153,2:02:35.640
The nature of consciousness is a mystery.

2:02:35.640,2:02:39.595
I challenge the young people here to investigate that very question.

2:02:40.148,2:02:43.820
And I remind you--taxpayers and voters that might be watching--

2:02:44.528,2:02:46.914
if we do not embrace the process of science,

2:02:46.914,2:02:50.647
and I mean in the mainstream, we will fall behind economically.

2:02:50.647,2:02:52.986
This is a point I can't say enough.

2:02:52.986,2:02:55.775
Moderator: Mr. Ham, a one minute response.

2:02:55.775,2:03:00.088
Ken Ham: Bill, I do want to say that there is a book out there... (audience laughs)

2:03:00.088,2:03:04.118
that does document where consciousness came from.

2:03:04.118,2:03:08.830
And in that book, the one who created us said that he made man in His image,

2:03:08.830,2:03:13.173
and He breathed into man, and he became a living being.

2:03:13.173,2:03:18.896
And so, the Bible does document that. That's where consciousness came from,

2:03:18.896,2:03:22.679
that God gave it to us. And, you know, the other thing I want to say is,

2:03:22.679,2:03:28.222
I'm sorta of a little, I have a mystery. That is, you talk about the joy of discovery

2:03:28.222,2:03:31.032
but you also say that when you die, it's over, and that's the end of you.

2:03:31.032,2:03:37.404
And if when you die, it's over, and you don't even remember you were here, what's the point of the joy of discovery anyway?

2:03:37.457,2:03:42.621
I mean, in an ultimate sense? I mean, you know, you won't ever know you were ever here,

2:03:42.621,2:03:47.406
and no one who knew you will know they were ever here, ultimately, so what's the point anyway?

2:03:47.406,2:03:51.929
I love the joy of discovery because this is God's creation,

2:03:51.929,2:03:57.032
and I'm finding more out about that to take dominion for man's good and for God's glory.

2:03:57.032,2:04:00.557
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham, a new question.

2:04:00.557,2:04:06.894
This is a simple question, I suppose, but one that actually is fairly profound for all of us, in our lives.

2:04:06.894,2:04:11.122
What, if anything, would ever change your mind?

2:04:11.122,2:04:19.214
Ken Ham: Hmm. Well, the answer to that question is,

2:04:19.214,2:04:27.485
I'm a Christian, and as a Christian, I can't prove it to you,

2:04:27.485,2:04:32.528
but God has definitely, shown me very clearly

2:04:32.528,2:04:39.162
through His Word, and shown Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.

2:04:39.162,2:04:43.749
The Bible is the Word of God. I admit that that's where I start from.

2:04:43.749,2:04:46.695
I can challenge people that you can go and test that.

2:04:46.695,2:04:50.271
You can make predictions based on that. You can check the prophecies in the Bible.

2:04:50.271,2:04:55.217
You can check the statements in Genesis. You can check that.

2:04:55.217,2:04:59.724
I did a little bit of that tonight. And I can't ultimately prove that to you.

2:04:59.724,2:05:05.675
All I can do is to say to someone, "Look, if the Bible really is what it claims to be,

2:05:05.675,2:05:09.310
if it really is the Word of God, and that's what it claims, then check it out."

2:05:09.310,2:05:13.402
And the Bible says, "If you come to God believing that He is, He'll reveal Himself to you."

2:05:13.402,2:05:16.754
And you will know. As Christians, we can say we know.

2:05:16.754,2:05:22.462
And so, as far as the Word of God is concerned, no, no one's ever going to convince me

2:05:22.462,2:05:29.030
that the Word of God is not true. But I do want to make a distinction here.

2:05:29.030,2:05:33.182
And for Bill's sake. We build models based upon the Bible.

2:05:33.182,2:05:36.366
And those models are always subject to change.

2:05:36.411,2:05:39.122
The fact of Noah's flood is not subject to change.

2:05:39.122,2:05:42.370
The model of how the flood occurred is subject to change

2:05:42.370,2:05:45.315
because we observe in the current world,

2:05:45.315,2:05:49.766
and we're able to come up with different ways this could have happened or that could have happened.

2:05:49.766,2:05:54.127
And that's part of that scientific discovery. That's part of what it's all about.

2:05:54.127,2:05:59.048
So, the bottom line is that as a Christian, I have a foundation.

2:05:59.048,2:06:03.847
That as a Christian, I would ask Bill a question. What would change your mind?

2:06:03.847,2:06:08.584
I mean, you said, even if you came to faith, you'd never give up believing in billions of years.

2:06:08.584,2:06:13.340
I think I quoted you correctly. You said something like that recently.

2:06:13.340,2:06:15.670
So that would be also my question to Bill.

2:06:15.670,2:06:17.833
Moderator: Time. Mr. Nye?

2:06:17.833,2:06:20.349
Bill Nye: We would just need one piece of evidence.

2:06:20.349,2:06:22.483
We would need the fossil that swam from one layer to another.

2:06:22.483,2:06:25.952
We would need evidence that the universe is not expanding.

2:06:25.952,2:06:29.233
We would need evidence that the stars appear to be far away, but in fact, they're not.

2:06:29.233,2:06:34.586
We would need evidence that rock layers can somehow form

2:06:34.586,2:06:36.607
in just 4,000 years instead of the extraordinary amount.

2:06:36.607,2:06:43.645
We would need evidence that somehow you can reset atomic clocks and keep neutrons from becoming protons.

2:06:43.645,2:06:48.721
You bring on any of those things and you would change me immediately.

2:06:48.721,2:06:51.914
The question I have for you though, fundamentally,

2:06:51.914,2:06:56.605
and for everybody watching. Mr. Ham, what can you prove?

2:06:56.605,2:07:00.435
What you have done tonight is spent most of the, all of the time

2:07:00.443,2:07:05.986
coming up with explanations about the past. What can you really predict?

2:07:06.002,2:07:09.216
What can you really prove in a conventional scientific,

2:07:09.216,2:07:14.584
or a conventional, "I have an idea that makes a prediction and it comes out the way I see it?"

2:07:14.584,2:07:17.099
This is very troubling to me.

2:07:17.130,2:07:21.636
Moderator: Mr. Nye, a new question. Outside of radiometric methods,

2:07:21.636,2:07:26.680
what scientific evidence supports your view of the age of the Earth?

2:07:26.680,2:07:31.970
Bill Nye: The age of the earth.. Well, the age of stars.

2:07:31.970,2:07:37.749
The... let's see... radiometric evidence is pretty compelling.

2:07:37.749,2:07:45.886
Also, the deposition rates. It was, it was, Lillel, a geologist,

2:07:45.886,2:07:51.997
who realized, my recollection, he came up with the first use of the term "deep time,"

2:07:51.997,2:07:57.672
when people realized that the Earth had to be much, much older.

2:07:57.672,2:08:04.838
In a related story, there was a mystery as to how the Earth could be old enough to allow evolution to have taken place.

2:08:04.838,2:08:08.506
How could the Earth possibly be three billion years old?

2:08:08.506,2:08:12.397
Lord Kelvin did a calculation, if the sun were made of coal, and burning,

2:08:12.412,2:08:15.842
it couldn't be more than 100,000 or so years old.

2:08:15.842,2:08:23.117
But radioactivity was discovered. Radioactivity is why the Earth is still as warm as it is.

2:08:23.117,2:08:29.469
It's why the Earth has been able to sustain its internal heat all these millenia.

2:08:29.469,2:08:33.729
And this discovery, it's something like, this question, without radiometric dating,

2:08:33.729,2:08:35.981
how would you view the age of the Earth,

2:08:35.981,2:08:43.164
to me, it's akin to the expression, "Well, if things were any other way, things would be different."

2:08:43.179,2:08:52.015
This is to say, that's not how the world is. Radiometric dating DOES exist. Neutrons DO become protons.

2:08:52.015,2:08:55.576
And that's our level of understanding today. The universe is accelerating.

2:08:55.576,2:09:02.864
These are all provable facts. That there was a flood 4.000 years ago, is not provable.

2:09:02.864,2:09:08.901
In fact, the evidence for me, at least, as a reasonable man, is overwhelming that it couldn't possibly have happened.

2:09:08.901,2:09:18.833
There's no evidence for it. Furthermore, Mr. Ham, you never quite addressed this issue of the skulls.

2:09:18.833,2:09:27.985
There are many, many steps in what appears to be the creation, or the coming into being of you and me.

2:09:27.985,2:09:31.776
And those steps, are consistent with evolutionary theory.

2:09:31.776,2:09:34.651
Moderator: And that is time. Mr. Ham, your response.

2:09:34.651,2:09:37.642
Ken Ham: By the way, I just want people to understand, too,

2:09:37.642,2:09:40.717
in regard to the age of the Earth being about four and a half billion years,

2:09:40.717,2:09:44.638
no Earth rock was dated to get that date. They dated meteorites,

2:09:44.638,2:09:47.513
and because they assumed meteorites were the same age as the Earth,

2:09:47.513,2:09:51.153
leftover from the formation of the solar system, that's where that comes from.

2:09:51.153,2:09:54.675
People think they dated rocks on the Earth to get the four and a half billion years. That's just not true.

2:09:54.675,2:09:58.605
And the other point that I was making, and I just put this slide back up,

2:09:58.605,2:10:01.021
cause I happened to just have it here. And that is,

2:10:01.037,2:10:05.066
I said at the end of my first rebuttal time, that there are hundreds of physical processes

2:10:05.066,2:10:07.572
that set limits on the age of the Earth. Here's the point.

2:10:07.610,2:10:13.024
Every dating method involves a change with time. And there are hundreds of them.

2:10:13.024,2:10:17.999
And, if you assume what was there to start with, and you assume something about the rate,

2:10:17.999,2:10:22.621
and you know about the rate, you make lots of those assumptions. Every dating method has those assumptions.

2:10:22.652,2:10:25.936
Most of the dating methods, 90% of them, contradict the billions of years.

2:10:25.936,2:10:35.866
There's no absolute age dating method from scientific method because you can't prove scientifically, young or old.

2:10:35.866,2:10:39.158
Moderator: And, here is a new question.