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(Music)

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Oh, hi kids! I have an incredible message for you!

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Hey, can someone take Thelma back to the petting zoo?

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Wow, that looks like fun!

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Now where was I? Oh yes, in 2014, kids 12 and under can come free!

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Hey, shouldn't the comets be in the planetarium?

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For the entire year, kids 12 and under come free.

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Hey, T-rex, you better get back to the dinasour den!

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As you can see, it's a very exciting place.

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Now tell your parents, kids 12 and under free in 2014

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when accompanied by a paying adult.

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We hope to see you soon.

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Good evening, I'm please to welcome you to Legacy Hall

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of the Creation Museum in Northern Kentucky

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in the Metropolitan area of Cincinnati.

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I'm Tom Forman from CNN.

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And I'm please to be tonight's moderator for

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this Evolution vs. Creation debate.

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This is a very old question, where did we come from?

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My answer is from Washington this morning by airplane.

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(Laughter) But there is a much more profound, longer answer,

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That people have sought after for a long time.

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So, tonight's question to be debated is the following:

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Is Creation a viable model of origins in today's modern Scientific era?

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Our welcome extends to hundreds of thousands of people

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who are watching on the internet at debatelive.org.

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We're glad you have joined us.

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Of course, your auditorium here,

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all of the folks who've joined us as well.

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We're joined by 70 media representatives from many

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of the world's great news organizations.

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We're glad to have them here as well.

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And now let's welcome our debaters: Mr. Bill Nye and Mr. Ken Ham.

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(audience applauds)

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We had a coin toss earlier to determine

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who would go first of these two men.

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The only thing missing was Joe Namath in a fur coat.

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But it went very well. Mr. Ham won the coin toss

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and he opted to speak first. But first, let me tell you

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a little bit about both of these gentlemen.

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Mr. Nye's website describes him as a scientist,

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engineer, comedian, author, and inventor.

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Mr Nye, as you may know, produced a number of award-winning TV shows,

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including a program he became so well-known for:

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Bill Nye the Science Guy.

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While working on the Science Guy show, Mr. Nye won

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seven national Emmy awards for writing, performing,

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and producing the show. Won 18 Emmys in five years!

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In between creating the shows, he wrote five kids books about science,

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including his latest title, <i>Bill Nye's Great Big Book of Tiny Germs</i>.

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Billy Nye is the host of three television series:

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his program, "The 100 Greatest Discoveries"--

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airs on the Science Channel. "The Eyes of Nye"--

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airs on PBS stations across the country. He frequenly appears

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on interview programs to discuss a variety of science topics.

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Mr. Nye serves as Executive Director of the Planetary Society,

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the world's largest space interest group.

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He is a graduate of Cornell, with a Bachelors

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of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering.

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Mr. Ken Ham is the president and co-founder of Answers in Genesis,

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a bible-defending organization that upholds the authority

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of the scriptures from the very first verse.

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Mr. Ham is the man behind the popular, high-tech

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Creation Museum, where we're holding this debate.

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The museum has had 2 million visitors in six years

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and has attracted much of the world's media.

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The Answers in Genesis website, as well, trafficked

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with 2 million visitors alone last month. Mr. Ham is also

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a best-selling author, a much in-demand speaker,

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and the host of a daily radio feature carried on 700 plus stations.

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This is his second public debate on Evolution and Creation.

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The first was at Harvard, in the 1990s.

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Mr. Ham is a native of Australia. He earned

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a Bachelors degree in Applied Science, with an emphasis in

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Environmental Biology, from the Queensland's Institute of Technology,

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as well as a Diploma of Education at the University

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of Queensland in Brisbon, Australia.

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And now...Mr. Ham, you opted to go first, so you will

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be first with your five minute opening statement.

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Well, good evening. I know that not everyone watching

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this debate will necessarily agree with what I have to say,

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but I'm an Aussie and live over here in America

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and they tell me I have an accent and so it doesn't matter

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what I say, some people tell me. We just like to hear you saying it.

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(laughter) So...um...I hope you enjoy me saying it anyway.

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Well, the debate topic is this: Is Creation

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a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era?

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You know, when this was first announced on the internet,

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there were lots of statements-- like this one

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from the Richard Dawkins Foundation.

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"Scientists should not debate Creationists. Period."

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And this one from one of the Discovery.com websites.

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"Should Scientists Debate Creationists?"

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You know, right here I believe there's a gross misrepresentation

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in our culture. We're seeing people being indoctrinated

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to believe that Creationists can't be Scientists.

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I believe it's all a part of secularists hi-jacking the word "Science".

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I want you to meet a modern-day scientist who's a Biblical Creationist.

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My name is Stuart Burgess.

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I'm a professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in the U.K.

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My name is Stuart Burgess.

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I'm a professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in the U.K.

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I have published over 130 scientific papers on

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the science of design in Engineering and Biological systems.

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From my research work, I have found that the scientific evidence

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fully supports Creationism as the best explanation to origins.

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I've also designed major parts of spacecrafts,

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launched by ESA and NASA.

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So here's a biblical Creationist,

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who's a scientist, who's also an inventor.

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And I want young people to understand that.

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You know, the problem, I believe, is this: we need to define terms correctly.

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We need to define Creation/Evolution in regard to origins

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and we need to define science. And in this opening statement,

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I want to concentrate on dealing with the word "science".

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I believe the word "science" has been hijacked by secularists.

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Now, what is science?

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Well, the origin of the word comes from the Classical Latin "scientia",

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which means know;. And if you look up a dictionary,

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it'll say science means "the state of knowing, knowledge".

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But there's different types of knowledge and I believe

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this is where the confusion lies.

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There's experimental or observational sciences, as we call it.

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That's using the scientific method, observation,

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measurement, experiment, testing. That's what produces

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our technology, computers, spacecraft, jet planes,

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smoke detectors, looking at DNA, antibiotics, medicines and vaccines.

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You see, all scientists, whether Creationists or Evolutionists,

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actually have the same observational or experimental science.

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And it doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist,

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you can be a great scientist.

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For instance, here's an atheist, who is a great scientist--

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Craig Venter, one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome.

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Or Dr. Raymond Damadian. He is a man who invented

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the MRI scan and revolutionized medicine. He's a biblical Creationist.

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But I want us to also understand molecules-to-man

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evolution belief has nothing to do with developing technology.

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You see, when we're talking about origins, we're talking about the past.

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We're talking about our origins. We weren't there.

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You can't observe that, whether it's molecules-to-man evolution,

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or whether it's a creation account.

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I mean, you're talking about the past.

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We'd like to call that Origins of Historical Science,

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knowledge concerning the past. Here at the Creation Museum,

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we make no apology about the fact that our Origins or Historical science

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actually is based upon the biblical account of origins.

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Now, when you research science textbooks being used

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in public schools, what we found is this:

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by and large, the Origins of Historical Science

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is based upon man's ideas about the past--for instance, the ideas of Darwin.

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And our research has found that public school textbooks

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are using the same word "science" for Observational Science

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and Historical Science. They arbitrarily define science

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as naturalism and outlaw the supernatural.

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They present molecules-to-man evolution as fact.

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They are imposing, I believe, the religion

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of naturalism or atheism on generations of students.

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You see, I assert that the word "science" has been hijacked

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by secularists in teaching evolution to force the religion

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of naturalism on generations of kids.

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Secular evolutionists teach that all life developed

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by natural processes from some primordial form.

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That man is just an evolved animal, which has great bearing

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on how we view life and death.

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For instance, as Bill states, "It's very hard to accept,

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for many of us, that when you die, it's over.";

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But, you see, the Bible gives a totally different account of origins,

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of who we are, where we came from, the meaning of life, and our future.

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That through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin.

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But that God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son.

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Whoever believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life.

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So is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era?

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I say the creation/evolution debate is a conflict

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between two philosophical worldviews based on two different accounts

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of origins or science beliefs and creation

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is the only viable model of historical science confirmed

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by observational science in today's modern scientific era.

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And that is time. I had the unenviable job of being the time-keeper here.

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So I'm like the referee in football that you don't like,

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but I will periodically, if either one of our debaters

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runs over on anything, I will stop them in the name of keeping it fair for all.

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Uh, Mr. Ham, thank you for your comments. Now it's Mr. Nye's

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turn for a five minute opening statement. Mr. Nye.

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Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

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I very much appreciate you including me in your, uh, facility here.

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Now, looking around the room I think I see just one bow tie.

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Is that right? Just one. And I'm telling you, once you try it--

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oh, there's yes, two! That's great. I started wearing bow ties

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when I was young, in high school.

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My father showed me how. His father showed him.

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And there's a story associated with this, which I find remarkable.

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My grandfather was in the rotary, and he attended

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a convention in Philadelphia, and even in those days,

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at the turn of the last century, people rented tuxedos.

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And the tuxedo came with a bow tie--untied bow tie.

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So he didn't know how to tie it.

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So...wasn't sure what to do, but he just took a chance.

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He went to the hotel room next door, knocked on the door,

0:23:23.739,0:23:26.075
"Excuse me? Can you help me tie my tie?"

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And the guy said, "Sure. Lie down on the bed."

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So...my grandfather wanted to have the tie on,

0:23:35.346,0:23:38.652
wasn't sure what he was getting into, so he's said

0:23:38.652,0:23:42.560
to have lain on the bed and the guy tied a perfect bow tie knot and,

0:23:42.560,0:23:45.006
quite reasonably, my grandfather said,

0:23:45.576,0:23:48.410
"Thank you. Why'd I have to lie down on the bed?"

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The guy said, "I'm an undertaker."

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(audience laughs)

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"It's the only way I know how to do it."

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Now that story was presented to me as a true story.

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It may or may not be. But it gives you something to think about.

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And it's certainly something to remember.

0:24:04.770,0:24:07.615
So, here tonight, we're gonna have two stories

0:24:07.615,0:24:13.072
and we can compare Mr. Ham's story to the story

0:24:13.072,0:24:16.417
from what I will call the outside, from mainstream science.

0:24:16.417,0:24:20.804
The question tonight is: Does Ken Ham's Creation Model hold up?

0:24:21.345,0:24:22.564
Is it "viable"?

0:24:23.174,0:24:26.517
So let me ask you all: what would you be doing if you weren't here tonight?

0:24:26.996,0:24:29.868
That's right, you'd be home watching CSI.

0:24:30.812,0:24:35.712
CSI Petersburg. Is that coming--I think it's coming.

0:24:36.677,0:24:41.037
And on CSI, there is no distinction made between

0:24:41.037,0:24:43.652
historical science and observational science.

0:24:43.652,0:24:46.829
These are constructs unique to Mr. Ham.

0:24:46.829,0:24:50.376
We don't normally have these anywhere in the world except here.

0:24:50.439,0:24:53.969
Natural laws that applied in the past apply now.

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That's why they're natural laws. That's why we embrace them.

0:24:57.200,0:24:59.055
That's how we made all these discoveries

0:24:59.055,0:25:01.365
that enabled all this remarkable technology.

0:25:01.689,0:25:05.405
So CSI is a fictional show, but it's based absolutely

0:25:05.405,0:25:07.096
on real people doing real work.

0:25:07.096,0:25:09.875
When you go to a crime scene and find evidence,

0:25:09.875,0:25:13.364
you have clues about the past. And you trust those clues

0:25:13.364,0:25:17.049
and you embrace them and you move forward to convict somebody.

0:25:17.049,0:25:20.603
Mr. Ham and his followers have this remarkable view

0:25:20.603,0:25:26.969
of a worldwide flood that somehow influenced everything that we observe in nature.

0:25:26.969,0:25:32.966
A 500 foot wooden boat, eight zookeepers for 14,000 individual animals,

0:25:32.966,0:25:37.445
every land plant in the world underwater for a full year?

0:25:37.705,0:25:40.368
I ask us all: is that really reasonable?

0:25:40.733,0:25:43.637
You'll hear a lot about the Grand Canyon, I imagine, also,

0:25:43.637,0:25:46.895
which is a remarkable place and it has fossils.

0:25:46.895,0:25:50.800
And the fossils in the Grand Canyon are found in layers.

0:25:51.068,0:25:53.877
There's not a single place in the Grand Canyon

0:25:53.877,0:25:56.973
where the fossils of one type of animal cross over

0:25:56.973,0:25:59.575
into the fossils of another. In other words,

0:25:59.575,0:26:03.060
when there was a big flood on the earth, you would expect

0:26:03.060,0:26:06.253
drowning animals to swim up to a higher level.

0:26:06.253,0:26:09.357
Not any one of them did. Not a single one.

0:26:09.357,0:26:13.967
If you could find evidence of that, my friends, you could change the world.

0:26:14.367,0:26:17.139
Now, I just wanna remind us all:

0:26:17.482,0:26:22.332
there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious,

0:26:22.798,0:26:27.601
who get enriched, who have a wonderful sense of community from their religion.

0:26:27.601,0:26:31.335
They worship together, they eat together, they live

0:26:31.335,0:26:34.688
in their communities and enjoy each others company. Billions of people.

0:26:34.688,0:26:39.117
But these same people do not embrace the extraordinary view

0:26:39.117,0:26:43.919
that the earth is somehow only 6,000 years old. That is unique.

0:26:44.269,0:26:48.827
And here's my concern: what keeps the United States ahead,

0:26:49.092,0:26:53.725
what makes the United States a world leader, is our technology,

0:26:53.725,0:26:59.009
our new ideas, our innovations. If we continue to eschew science,

0:26:59.249,0:27:02.677
eschew the process and try to divide science

0:27:02.677,0:27:05.831
into observational science and historic science,

0:27:06.286,0:27:09.468
we are not gonna move forward. We will not embrace natural laws.

0:27:09.472,0:27:15.345
We will not make discoveries. We will not invent and innovate and stay ahead.

0:27:15.345,0:27:20.397
So if you ask me if Ken Ham's Creation model is viable, I say no.

0:27:20.397,0:27:24.782
It is absolutely not viable. So stay with us over the next period

0:27:24.782,0:27:28.925
and you can compare my evidence to his. Thank you all very much.

0:27:28.925,0:27:32.749
(audience applauds) (moderator) All right.

0:27:32.755,0:27:35.187
Very nice start by both of our debaters here.

0:27:35.187,0:27:38.207
And now each of one will offer a thirty minute,

0:27:38.207,0:27:43.768
illustrated presentation to fully offer their case for us to consider.

0:27:43.768,0:27:44.980
Mr. Ham, you're up.

0:27:57.454,0:28:00.350
Well, the debate topic was "Is creation a viable model

0:28:00.350,0:28:03.100
of origins in today's modern scientific era?"

0:28:03.400,0:28:06.668
And I made the statement at the end of my opening statement:

0:28:06.668,0:28:09.696
creation is the only viable model of historical science

0:28:09.696,0:28:13.286
confirmed by observational science in today's modern scientific era.

0:28:13.286,0:28:16.944
And I said what we need to be doing is actually defining

0:28:16.944,0:28:22.433
our terms and, particularly three terms: science, creation, and evolution.

0:28:22.449,0:28:25.433
Now, I discussed the meaning of the word "science"

0:28:25.434,0:28:28.800
and what is meant by experimental and observational science briefly.

0:28:28.800,0:28:30.663
And that both Creationists and Evolutionists

0:28:30.663,0:28:35.842
can be great scientists, for instance. I mentioned Craig Venter, a biologist.

0:28:35.842,0:28:38.171
He's an atheist and he's a great scientist.

0:28:38.171,0:28:41.447
He was one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome.

0:28:41.447,0:28:47.002
I also mentioned Dr. Raymond Damadian, who actually invented the MRI scanner.

0:28:47.002,0:28:52.455
I want you to meet a biblical creationist who is a scientist and an inventor.

0:28:52.798,0:28:55.242
Hi, my name is Dr. Raymond Damadian.

0:28:55.249,0:28:58.238
I am a Young Earth Creation Scientist and believe that God

0:28:58.238,0:29:01.385
created the world in six 24 hour days,

0:29:01.385,0:29:04.094
just as recorded in the book of Genesis.

0:29:04.094,0:29:07.897
By God's grace and the devoted prayers of my Godly mother-in-law,

0:29:07.897,0:29:11.235
I invented the MRI scanner in 1969.

0:29:11.346,0:29:14.464
The idea that scientists who believe the earth

0:29:14.464,0:29:19.494
is 6,000 years old cannot do real science is simply wrong.

0:29:19.569,0:29:21.558
Well, he's most adamant about that.

0:29:21.558,0:29:24.916
And, actually, he revolutionized medicine! He's a biblical Creationist.

0:29:24.916,0:29:29.390
And I encourage children to follow people like that, make them their heroes.

0:29:29.390,0:29:33.200
Let me introduce you to another biblical Creation Scientist.

0:29:33.407,0:29:34.997
My name is Danny Faulkner.

0:29:35.433,0:29:39.127
I received my PhD in astronomy from Indiana University.

0:29:39.383,0:29:41.734
For 26 and a half years, I was a professor

0:29:41.734,0:29:44.258
at the University of South Carolina, Lancaster,

0:29:44.258,0:29:47.740
where I hold the rank of distinguished professor emeritus.

0:29:47.880,0:29:51.707
Upon my retirement from the university in January of 2013,

0:29:51.707,0:29:56.747
I joined the research staff at Answers in Genesis. I'm a stellar astronomer.

0:29:56.997,0:30:00.357
That means my primary interests is stars, but I'm particularly

0:30:00.357,0:30:03.305
interested in the study of eclipsing binary stars.

0:30:03.305,0:30:06.034
And I've published many articles in the astronomy literature,

0:30:06.034,0:30:07.898
places such as the the Astrophysical Journal,

0:30:07.898,0:30:10.527
the Astronomical Journal, and the Observatory.

0:30:11.227,0:30:16.800
There is nothing in observational astronomy that contradicts a recent creation.

0:30:17.350,0:30:19.916
I also mentioned Dr. Stuart Burgess,

0:30:19.916,0:30:24.500
professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in England.

0:30:24.500,0:30:28.982
Now he invented and designed a double-action worm gear set

0:30:28.982,0:30:33.504
for the three hinges of the robotic arm on a very expensive satellite.

0:30:33.504,0:30:36.367
And if that had not worked, if that gear set had not worked,

0:30:36.367,0:30:38.878
that whole satellite would've been useless.

0:30:38.878,0:30:43.820
Yet, Dr. Burgess is a biblical Creationist. He believes, just as I believe.

0:30:43.820,0:30:46.164
Now, think about this for a moment.

0:30:46.164,0:30:47.514
A scientist like Dr. Burgess,

0:30:47.514,0:30:49.910
who believe in Creation, just as I do,

0:30:49.910,0:30:52.397
a small minority in this scientific world.

0:30:52.397,0:30:55.674
But let's see what he says about scientists believing in Creation.

0:30:55.674,0:30:59.218
I find that many of my colleagues in academia are sympathetic

0:30:59.218,0:31:03.078
to the creationist viewpoint, including biologists.

0:31:03.078,0:31:06.400
However, there are often afraid to speak out because of the criticisms

0:31:06.400,0:31:09.329
they would get from the media and atheists lobby.

0:31:09.329,0:31:11.475
I agree. That's a real problem today.

0:31:11.475,0:31:15.081
We need to have freedom to be able to speak on these topics.

0:31:15.081,0:31:18.598
You know, I just want to say, by the way, that Creationists,

0:31:18.598,0:31:21.658
non-Christian scientists, I should say,

0:31:21.658,0:31:23.765
non-Christian scientists are really borrowing

0:31:23.765,0:31:27.134
from the Christian worldview anyway to carry out their experimental,

0:31:27.134,0:31:30.203
observational science. Think about it. When they're doing

0:31:30.203,0:31:32.850
observational science, using the scientific method,

0:31:32.850,0:31:34.445
they have to assume the laws of logic,

0:31:34.445,0:31:36.201
they have to assume the laws of nature,

0:31:36.201,0:31:38.292
they have to assume the uniformity of nature.

0:31:38.292,0:31:41.283
I mean, think about it. If the universe came about by natural processes,

0:31:41.283,0:31:44.433
where'd the laws of logic come from? Did they just pop into existence?

0:31:44.433,0:31:47.291
Are we in a stage now where we only have half-logic?

0:31:47.291,0:31:50.099
So, you see, I have a question for Bill Nye.

0:31:50.099,0:31:53.080
How do you account for the laws of logic and the laws of nature

0:31:53.080,0:31:57.823
from a naturalistic worldview that excludes the existence of God?

0:31:57.823,0:32:00.907
Now, in my opening statement I also discussed

0:32:00.907,0:32:05.000
a different type of science or knowledge, origins or historical science.

0:32:05.000,0:32:08.467
See again, there's a confusion here. There's a misunderstanding here.

0:32:08.467,0:32:13.566
People, by and large, have not been taught to look at

0:32:13.566,0:32:17.697
what you believe about the past as different to what you're observing in the present.

0:32:17.697,0:32:21.243
You don't observe the past directly.

0:32:21.243,0:32:24.932
Even when you think about the creation account.

0:32:24.932,0:32:26.834
I mean, we can't observe God creating.

0:32:26.834,0:32:29.732
We can't observe the creation of Adam and Eve. We admit that.

0:32:29.732,0:32:32.210
We're willing to admit our beliefs about the past.

0:32:32.210,0:32:35.600
But, see, what you see in the present is very different.

0:32:35.600,0:32:39.300
Even some public school textbooks actually sort of acknowledge

0:32:39.300,0:32:42.397
the difference between historical and observational science.

0:32:42.397,0:32:45.832
Here is an Earth Science textbook that's used in public schools.

0:32:45.832,0:32:48.850
And we read this. In contrast to physical geology,

0:32:48.850,0:32:53.200
the aim of historical geology is to understand Earth's long history.

0:32:53.298,0:32:54.410
Then they make this statement.

0:32:54.410,0:32:57.765
Historical geology--so we're talking historical science--

0:32:57.765,0:33:00.900
tries to establish a timeline of the vast number of physical

0:33:00.900,0:33:03.300
and biological changes that have occurred in the past.

0:33:03.300,0:33:06.867
We study physical geology before historical geology

0:33:06.867,0:33:11.566
because we first must understand how Earth works before we try to unravel its past.

0:33:11.566,0:33:14.467
In other words, we observe things in the present and then,

0:33:14.467,0:33:18.099
okay, we're assuming that that's always happened in the past

0:33:18.099,0:33:20.441
and we're gonna try and figure out how this happened.

0:33:20.441,0:33:22.234
See, there is a difference between what you observe

0:33:22.234,0:33:26.513
and what happened in the past. Let me illustrate it this way:

0:33:27.543,0:33:29.336
If Bill Nye and I went to the Grand Canyon,

0:33:29.336,0:33:32.654
we could agree that that's a Coconino sandstone in the Hermit shale.

0:33:32.654,0:33:35.165
There's the boundary. They're sitting one on top of the other.

0:33:35.165,0:33:38.767
We could agree on that. But you know what we would disagree on?

0:33:38.767,0:33:41.531
I mean, we could even analyse the minerals and agree on that.

0:33:41.531,0:33:44.063
But we would disagree on how long it took to get there.

0:33:44.063,0:33:47.565
But see, none of us saw the sandstone or the shale being laid down.

0:33:47.565,0:33:49.730
There's a supposed 10 million year gap there.

0:33:49.730,0:33:51.000
But I don't see a gap.

0:33:51.000,0:33:53.730
But that might be different to what Bill Nye would see.

0:33:53.730,0:33:57.530
But there's a difference between what you actually observe

0:33:57.530,0:34:00.829
directly and then your interpretation regarding the past.

0:34:00.829,0:34:04.711
When I was at the Goddard Space Center a number of years ago

0:34:04.711,0:34:06.606
I met Creationists and Evolutionists who were

0:34:06.606,0:34:08.313
both working on the Hubble telescope.

0:34:08.313,0:34:10.603
They agreed on how to build the Hubble telescope.

0:34:10.603,0:34:13.333
You know what they disagreed on? Well, they disagreed on

0:34:13.333,0:34:16.170
how to interpret the data the telescope obtained

0:34:16.170,0:34:18.455
in regard to the age of the universe.

0:34:18.455,0:34:21.297
And, you know, we could on and talk about lots

0:34:21.297,0:34:23.139
of other similar sorts of things. For instance,

0:34:23.139,0:34:26.547
I've heard Bill Nye talk about how a smoke detector works,

0:34:26.547,0:34:30.793
using the radioactive element Americium. And, you know what?

0:34:30.793,0:34:32.933
I totally agree with him on that. We agree how it works.

0:34:32.933,0:34:35.933
We agree how radioactivity enables that to work.

0:34:35.933,0:34:37.696
But if you're then gonna use radioactive elements

0:34:37.696,0:34:39.599
and talk about the age of the Earth,

0:34:39.599,0:34:41.563
you've got a problem cause you weren't there.

0:34:41.563,0:34:44.797
We gotta understand parent elements, daughter elements and so on.

0:34:44.797,0:34:47.764
We could agree whether you're Creationist or Evolutionist

0:34:47.764,0:34:50.366
on the technology to put the rover on Mars, but we're gonna

0:34:50.366,0:34:54.282
disagree on how to interpret the origin of Mars.

0:34:54.601,0:34:56.112
I mean, there are some people that believed it

0:34:56.112,0:34:59.130
was even a global flood on Mars, and there's no liquid water on Mars.

0:35:01.350,0:35:03.864
We're gonna disagree maybe on our interpretation of origins

0:35:03.864,0:35:06.962
and you can't prove either way because, not from

0:35:06.962,0:35:11.102
an observational science perspective, because we've only got the present.

0:35:11.102,0:35:16.707
Creationists and Evolutionists both work on medicines and vaccines.

0:35:16.707,0:35:19.365
You see? It doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist,

0:35:19.365,0:35:23.170
all scientists have the same experimental observational science.

0:35:23.170,0:35:26.101
So I have a question for Bill Nye: Can you name one piece

0:35:26.101,0:35:28.764
of technology that could only have been developed

0:35:28.764,0:35:32.929
starting with the belief in molecules-to-man evolution?

0:35:32.929,0:35:35.033
Now, here's another important fact.

0:35:35.033,0:35:38.898
Creationists and Evolutionists all have the same evidence.

0:35:38.898,0:35:42.933
Bill Nye and I have the same Grand Canyon. We don't disagree on that.

0:35:42.933,0:35:46.333
We all have the same fish fossils. This is one from the Creation Museum.

0:35:46.333,0:35:50.299
The same dinosaur skeleton, the same animals, the same humans,

0:35:50.299,0:35:54.671
the same DNA, the same radioactive decay elements that we see.

0:35:54.671,0:35:59.373
We have the same universe...actually, we all have the same evidences.

0:35:59.933,0:36:01.866
It's not the evidences that are different.

0:36:01.866,0:36:06.234
It's a battle over the same evidence in regard to how we interpret the past.

0:36:06.234,0:36:07.566
And you know why that is?

0:36:07.566,0:36:10.263
Cause it's really a battle over worldviews and starting points.

0:36:10.263,0:36:12.000
It's a battle over philosophical worldviews

0:36:12.000,0:36:14.862
and starting points, but the same evidence. Now, I admit,

0:36:14.862,0:36:17.798
my starting point is that God is the ultimate authority.

0:36:17.798,0:36:21.731
But if someone doesn't accept that, then man has to be the ultimate authority.

0:36:21.731,0:36:24.399
And that's really the difference when it comes down to it.

0:36:24.399,0:36:26.733
You see, I've been emphasizing the difference

0:36:26.733,0:36:29.537
between historical origin science, knowledge about

0:36:29.537,0:36:30.927
the past when you weren't there,

0:36:30.927,0:36:33.362
and we need to understand that we weren't there.

0:36:33.362,0:36:36.299
Or experimental observational science, using

0:36:36.299,0:36:38.501
your five senses in the present, the scientific method,

0:36:38.501,0:36:41.133
what you can directly observe, test, repeat.

0:36:42.953,0:36:44.328
There's a big difference between those two.

0:36:44.328,0:36:46.797
And that's not what's being taught in our public schools

0:36:46.797,0:36:48.600
and that's why kids aren't being taught to think

0:36:48.600,0:36:52.137
critically and correctly about the origins issue.

0:36:52.137,0:36:54.031
But you know, it's also important to understand,

0:36:54.031,0:36:56.366
when talking about Creation and Evolution, both involve

0:36:56.366,0:36:59.705
historical science and observational science.

0:36:59.705,0:37:02.365
You see, the role of observational science is this:

0:37:02.365,0:37:04.481
it can be used to confirm or otherwise

0:37:04.481,0:37:08.232
one's historical science based on one's starting point.

0:37:08.232,0:37:11.000
Now, when you think about the debate topic and what I have

0:37:11.000,0:37:14.399
learned concerning creation, if our origins

0:37:14.399,0:37:17.999
or historical science based on the bible, the bible's account

0:37:17.999,0:37:21.451
of origins is true, then there should be predictions

0:37:21.451,0:37:24.443
from this that we can test, using observational science.

0:37:24.443,0:37:27.176
And there are. For instance, based on the bible,

0:37:27.176,0:37:30.100
we'd expect to find evidence concerning an intelligence,

0:37:30.100,0:37:32.534
confirming an intelligence produced life.

0:37:32.534,0:37:35.137
We'd expect to find evidence confirming after their kind.

0:37:35.137,0:37:38.139
The bible says God made kinds of animals and plants

0:37:38.139,0:37:41.201
after their kind, implying each kind produces it's own,

0:37:41.201,0:37:43.500
not that one kind changes into another.

0:37:43.500,0:37:47.533
You'd expect to find evidence confirming a global flood of Noah's day.

0:37:47.533,0:37:50.830
Evidence confirming one race of humans because we

0:37:50.830,0:37:53.833
all go back to Adam and Eve, biologically, that would mean there's one race.

0:37:53.833,0:37:58.078
Evidence confirming the Tower of Babel, that God gave different languages.

0:37:58.078,0:38:00.433
Evidence confirming a young universe.

0:38:00.433,0:38:04.074
Now, I can't go through all of those, but a couple of them we'll look at briefly.

0:38:05.194,0:38:07.668
After their kind, evidence confirming that--

0:38:07.668,0:38:12.865
in the Creation Museum, we have a display featuring replicas,

0:38:12.865,0:38:15.931
actually, of Darwin's finches. They're called Darwin's finches.

0:38:15.931,0:38:18.833
Darwin collected finches from the Galapagos

0:38:18.833,0:38:21.863
and took them back to England and we see the different species,

0:38:21.863,0:38:24.133
the different beak sizes here. And, you know,

0:38:24.133,0:38:27.171
from the specimens Darwin obtained in the Galapagos,

0:38:27.171,0:38:31.295
he actually pondered these things and how do you explain this.

0:38:31.295,0:38:36.698
And in his notes, actually, he came up with this diagram here, a tree.

0:38:36.698,0:38:42.298
And he actually said, "I think." So he was talking about

0:38:42.298,0:38:46.566
different species and maybe those species came from some common ancestor,

0:38:46.566,0:38:49.434
but, actually, when it comes to finches, we actually would agree,

0:38:49.434,0:38:54.332
as Creationists, that different finch species came from a common ancestor, but a finch.

0:38:54.332,0:38:57.331
That's what they would have to come from.

0:38:57.331,0:39:01.131
And see, Darwin wasn't just thinking about species.

0:39:01.131,0:39:04.126
Darwin had a much bigger picture in mind.

0:39:04.126,0:39:07.586
When you look at the Origins of Species and read that book,

0:39:07.586,0:39:10.904
you'll find he made this statement: from such low and intermediate form,

0:39:10.904,0:39:13.065
both animals and plants may have been developed;

0:39:13.065,0:39:15.965
and, if we admit this, we must likewise admit that

0:39:15.965,0:39:18.965
all organic beings which have ever lived on this Earth

0:39:18.965,0:39:22.285
may be descended from some one primordial form.

0:39:22.285,0:39:27.927
So he had in mind what we today know as an evolutionary tree of life,

0:39:27.927,0:39:31.852
that all life has arisen from some primordial form.

0:39:31.852,0:39:35.287
Now, when you consider the classifications system,

0:39:35.287,0:39:37.867
kingdom phylum class or the family genus species,

0:39:37.867,0:39:41.698
we would say, as Creationists, we have many creation scientists

0:39:41.698,0:39:43.598
that research this and, for lots of reasons,

0:39:43.598,0:39:47.103
I would say, the kind in Genesis 1 is really more at

0:39:47.103,0:39:50.767
the family level of classification. For instance, there's one dog kind.

0:39:50.767,0:39:53.402
There's one cat kind. Even though you have different

0:39:53.402,0:39:55.686
generative species, that would mean, by the way,

0:39:55.686,0:39:57.800
you didn't need anywhere near the number of animals

0:39:57.800,0:39:59.218
on the ark as people think.

0:39:59.218,0:40:01.033
You wouldn't need all the species of dogs, just two.

0:40:01.033,0:40:02.898
Not all the species of cats--just two.

0:40:02.898,0:40:06.599
And, you see, based on the biblical account there in Genesis One,

0:40:06.599,0:40:10.352
Creationists have drawn up what they believe is a creation origin.

0:40:10.352,0:40:13.218
In other words, they're saying, "Look. There's great variation

0:40:13.218,0:40:16.252
in the genetics of dogs and finches and so on."

0:40:16.252,0:40:19.367
And so, over time, particularly after Noah's flood,

0:40:19.367,0:40:21.598
you'd expect if there were two dogs, for instance,

0:40:21.598,0:40:23.766
you could end up with different species of dogs because

0:40:23.766,0:40:28.949
there's an incredible amount of variability in the genes of any creature.

0:40:28.949,0:40:33.499
And so you'd expect these different species up here, but there's limits.

0:40:33.499,0:40:36.433
Dogs will always be dogs, finches will always be finches.

0:40:36.433,0:40:42.067
Now, as a Creationist, I maintain that observational science

0:40:42.067,0:40:45.983
actually confirms this model, based on the bible.

0:40:45.983,0:40:49.530
For instance, take dogs. Okay?

0:40:49.530,0:40:53.833
In a scientific paper dated January 2014--that's this year--

0:40:53.833,0:40:58.067
scientists working at the University of California stated this:

0:40:58.067,0:41:00.564
We provide several lines of evidence supporting

0:41:00.564,0:41:04.503
a single origin for dogs, and disfavoring alternative models

0:41:04.503,0:41:06.833
in which dog lineages arise separately

0:41:06.833,0:41:09.598
from geographically distinct wolf populations.

0:41:09.598,0:41:11.883
And they put this diagram in the paper.

0:41:11.883,0:41:14.300
By the way, that diagram is very, very similar

0:41:14.300,0:41:17.598
to this diagram that Creationists proposed based upon

0:41:17.598,0:41:20.832
the creation account in Genesis. In other words,

0:41:20.832,0:41:22.465
you have a common dog ancestor that gives rise

0:41:22.465,0:41:25.364
to the different species of dogs, and that's exactly

0:41:25.364,0:41:28.129
what we're saying here. Now, in the Creation Museum,

0:41:28.129,0:41:31.300
we actually show the finches here and you see the finches

0:41:31.300,0:41:34.767
with their different beaks, beside dogs skulls, different species of dogs.

0:41:34.767,0:41:37.884
By the way, there's more variation in the dog skeleton

0:41:37.884,0:41:41.063
here than there are in these finches. Yet, the dogs,

0:41:41.063,0:41:42.931
wow, that's never used as an example of evolution,

0:41:42.931,0:41:45.800
but the finches are, particularly in the public school textbooks.

0:41:45.800,0:41:49.099
Students are taught, "Ah! See the changes that are occurring here?"

0:41:49.099,0:41:51.299
And here's another problem that we've got.

0:41:51.299,0:41:55.906
Not only has the word "science" been hijacked by secularists,

0:41:55.906,0:41:59.851
I believe the word "evolution" has been hijacked by secularists.

0:41:59.851,0:42:03.963
The word "evolution" has been hijacked using what I call a bait and switch.

0:42:03.963,0:42:05.950
Let me explain to you.

0:42:05.950,0:42:09.830
The word "evolution" is being used in public school textbooks,

0:42:09.830,0:42:11.833
and we often see it in documentaries and so on,

0:42:11.833,0:42:15.100
is used for observable changes that we would agree with,

0:42:15.100,0:42:19.791
and then used for unobservable changes, such as molecules-to-man.

0:42:19.791,0:42:21.757
Let me explain to you what's really going on because

0:42:21.757,0:42:23.565
I was a science teacher in the public schools

0:42:23.565,0:42:25.965
and I know what the students were taught and I checked

0:42:25.965,0:42:28.600
the public school textbooks anyway to know what they're taught.

0:42:28.600,0:42:31.030
See, students are taught today, look, there's all

0:42:31.030,0:42:34.032
these different animals, plants, but they're all part

0:42:34.032,0:42:37.297
of this great, big tree of life that goes back to some primordial form.

0:42:37.297,0:42:39.470
And, look, we see changes. Changes in finches,

0:42:39.470,0:42:42.655
changes in dogs and so on. Now, we don't deny the changes.

0:42:42.655,0:42:45.499
You see that. You see different species of finches, different species of dogs.

0:42:45.499,0:42:48.200
But then they put it all together in this evolutionary tree--

0:42:48.200,0:42:50.387
but that's what you don't observe. You don't observe that.

0:42:50.387,0:42:53.653
That's belief there. That's the historical science

0:42:53.653,0:42:57.833
that I would say is wrong. But, you know, what you do observe,

0:42:57.833,0:43:03.033
you do observe different species of dogs, different species of finches,

0:43:03.033,0:43:06.563
but then there are limits. You don't see one kind changing into another.

0:43:06.563,0:43:12.050
Actually, we're told that if you teach creation

0:43:12.050,0:43:14.367
in the public schools as teaching religion,

0:43:14.367,0:43:17.281
if you teach evolution as science, I'm gonna say, "Wait a minute!"

0:43:17.281,0:43:21.332
Actually, the creation model here, based upon the Bible,

0:43:21.332,0:43:24.277
observational science confirms this. This is what you're observe!

0:43:24.277,0:43:25.982
You don't observe this tree.

0:43:25.982,0:43:29.430
Actually, it's the public school textbooks that are teaching a belief,

0:43:29.430,0:43:32.284
imposing it on students, and they need to be teaching them

0:43:32.284,0:43:36.466
observational science to understand the reality of what's happening.

0:43:36.466,0:43:40.559
Now, what we found is that public school textbooks present

0:43:40.559,0:43:44.630
the evolutionary tree as science, but reject the creation orchard as religion.

0:43:44.928,0:43:47.760
But observational science confirms the creation orchard--

0:43:47.760,0:43:50.996
so public school textbooks are rejecting observational science

0:43:50.996,0:43:53.893
and imposing a naturalistic religion on students.

0:43:53.893,0:43:57.289
The word "evolution" has been hijacked using a bait and switch

0:43:57.289,0:44:00.496
to indoctrinate students to accept evolutionary belief

0:44:00.496,0:44:01.937
as observational science.

0:44:02.373,0:44:05.968
Let me introduce you to another scientist, Richard Lenski,

0:44:05.968,0:44:08.831
from Michigan State University. He's a great scientist,

0:44:08.831,0:44:11.723
he's known for culturing e-coli in the lab...

0:44:11.723,0:44:15.585
and he found there was some e-coli that actually seemed

0:44:15.585,0:44:19.033
to develop the ability to grow on cistrate on substrate.

0:44:23.382,0:44:27.909
But Richard Lenski is here, mentioned in this book,

0:44:28.259,0:44:31.027
and it's called "Evolution in the Lab".

0:44:31.411,0:44:35.787
So the ability to grow on citrate is said to be evolution.

0:44:35.787,0:44:39.802
And there are those that say, "Hey! This is against the Creationist."

0:44:39.802,0:44:42.988
For instance, Jerry Coin from University of Chicago says,

0:44:42.988,0:44:45.750
"Lenski's experiment is also yet another poke in the eye

0:44:45.750,0:44:47.312
for anti-evolutionists."

0:44:47.312,0:44:50.823
He says, "The thing I like most is it says you can get

0:44:50.823,0:44:54.475
these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events."

0:44:54.475,0:44:57.940
But is it a poke in the eye for anti-evolutionists?

0:44:57.940,0:45:01.366
Is it really seeing complex traits evolving?

0:45:01.599,0:45:06.412
What does it mean that some of these bacteria are able to grow on citrate?

0:45:06.412,0:45:10.566
Let me introduce you to another biblical Creationist, who is a scientist.

0:45:10.566,0:45:12.785
Hi, my name's Dr. Andrew Fabich.

0:45:12.785,0:45:16.246
I got my PhD from University of Oklahoma in Microbiology.

0:45:16.246,0:45:20.133
I teach at Liberty University and I do research on e-coli in the intestine.

0:45:20.563,0:45:25.565
I've published it in secular journals from the American Society for Microbiology,

0:45:26.163,0:45:30.808
including infection and immunity and applied environmental microbiology

0:45:30.808,0:45:32.019
as well as several others.

0:45:32.019,0:45:35.400
My work has been cited even in the past year in the journals Nature,

0:45:35.410,0:45:38.044
Science Translational Medicine, Public Library of Science,

0:45:38.044,0:45:41.677
Public Library of Science Genetics. It's cited regularly

0:45:41.677,0:45:46.462
in those journals and while I was taught nothing but evolution,

0:45:46.462,0:45:48.089
I don't accept that position.

0:45:48.089,0:45:50.333
I do my research from a creation perspective.

0:45:50.797,0:45:54.267
When I look at the evidence that people cite as e-coli,

0:45:54.267,0:46:01.030
supposedly, evolving over 30 years, over 30,000 generations in the lab,

0:46:01.032,0:46:04.066
and people say that it is now able to grow on citrate,

0:46:04.066,0:46:06.080
I don't deny that it grows on citrate,

0:46:06.080,0:46:08.511
but it's not any kind of new information.

0:46:08.511,0:46:11.920
The information's already there and it's just a switch

0:46:11.920,0:46:15.762
that gets turned on and off and that's what they reported in there.

0:46:15.762,0:46:17.377
There's nothing new.

0:46:17.377,0:46:20.170
See, students need to be told what's really going on here.

0:46:20.170,0:46:24.831
Certainly there's change, but it's not change necessary for molecules-to-man.

0:46:25.105,0:46:26.954
Now, we could look at other predictions.

0:46:26.954,0:46:29.209
What about evidence confirming one race?

0:46:29.209,0:46:32.865
Well, when we look at the human population we see lots of differences.

0:46:32.865,0:46:35.170
But based on Darwin's ideas of human evolution,

0:46:35.170,0:46:37.457
as presented in The Descent of Man, I mean,

0:46:37.457,0:46:39.340
Darwin did teach in The Descent of Man there were

0:46:39.340,0:46:41.072
lower races and higher races.

0:46:41.072,0:46:44.419
Would you believe, that back in the 1900s, one of the most

0:46:44.419,0:46:49.555
popular biology textbooks used in the public schools in America taught this:

0:46:49.555,0:46:51.966
At the present time there exists upon Earth

0:46:51.966,0:46:54.897
five races or varieties of man...and finally,

0:46:54.899,0:46:58.299
the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented

0:46:58.299,0:47:00.863
by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.

0:47:00.863,0:47:03.277
Can you imagine if that was in the public schools today?

0:47:03.277,0:47:06.380
And, yet, that's what was taught, but it was based on

0:47:06.380,0:47:10.963
Darwin's ideas that are wrong. You have a wrong foundation.

0:47:10.963,0:47:12.440
You're gonna have a wrong worldview.

0:47:12.440,0:47:15.712
Now, had they started from the Bible, and from

0:47:15.712,0:47:18.329
the creation account in the Bible, what does it teach?

0:47:18.330,0:47:20.528
Well, we're all descendants of Adam and Eve.

0:47:20.528,0:47:22.753
We go through the Tower of Babel, different languages,

0:47:22.753,0:47:25.366
so different people groups formed distinct characteristics.

0:47:25.366,0:47:27.520
But we'd expect, we'd say, you know what,

0:47:27.520,0:47:30.484
that means there's biologically only one race of humans.

0:47:30.484,0:47:33.030
Well, I mentioned Dr. Venter before.

0:47:33.030,0:47:36.105
And he was a researcher with the human genome project.

0:47:36.105,0:47:39.245
And you'll remember, in the year 2000, this was headline news,

0:47:39.245,0:47:41.924
and what we read was this: they had put together

0:47:41.924,0:47:44.502
a draft of the entire sequence of the human genome

0:47:44.502,0:47:48.423
and unanimously declared, there is only one race - the human race.

0:47:48.423,0:47:49.929
Wow! Who would have guessed?

0:47:49.929,0:47:52.414
But you see there we have observational science

0:47:52.414,0:47:54.737
confirming the Creation account,

0:47:54.737,0:47:58.362
not confirming at all Darwin's ideas.

0:47:58.362,0:48:00.096
Now, there's much more that can be said

0:48:00.096,0:48:01.499
on each of these topics.

0:48:01.499,0:48:04.690
Obviously, you can't do that in a short time like this.

0:48:04.690,0:48:06.369
And you could do a lot more research.

0:48:06.369,0:48:09.458
I suggest you visit our website at Answers in Genesis

0:48:09.458,0:48:11.183
for a lot more information.

0:48:11.183,0:48:14.612
So, the debate topic: Is creation a viable model

0:48:14.612,0:48:17.226
of origins in today's scientific era?

0:48:17.226,0:48:19.713
I said, we need to define the terms,

0:48:19.713,0:48:21.294
and particularly, the term science

0:48:21.294,0:48:23.766
and the term evolution. And I believe we need

0:48:23.770,0:48:25.585
to understand how they are being used to impose

0:48:25.585,0:48:29.376
an anti-God religion on generations of unsuspecting students.

0:48:29.856,0:48:32.041
You see, I keep emphasizing we do need to

0:48:32.041,0:48:33.980
understand the difference between experimental or

0:48:33.980,0:48:37.047
observational science and historical science.

0:48:37.047,0:48:38.663
And you know what?

0:48:38.663,0:48:40.070
The secularists don't like me doing this

0:48:40.070,0:48:41.746
because they don't want to admit

0:48:41.746,0:48:43.943
that there's a belief aspect to what they're saying.

0:48:43.943,0:48:46.137
And there is. And they can't get away from it.

0:48:46.276,0:48:48.958
Let me illustrate this with a statement from Bill Nye.

0:48:48.958,0:48:50.892
"You can show the Earth is not flat.

0:48:50.892,0:48:53.265
You can show the Earth is not 10,000 years old."

0:48:53.269,0:48:55.647
By the way, I agree. You can show the Earth is not flat.

0:48:55.647,0:48:58.503
There's a video from the Galileo spacecraft showing

0:48:58.503,0:49:00.907
the Earth, and speeded up of course, but spinning.

0:49:00.907,0:49:03.394
You can see it's a sphere. You can observe that.

0:49:03.398,0:49:05.895
You can't observe the age of the Earth.

0:49:05.900,0:49:08.208
You don't see that. You see again, I emphasize,

0:49:08.208,0:49:10.433
there's a big difference between historical science,

0:49:10.433,0:49:13.523
talking about the past, and observational science,

0:49:13.523,0:49:15.299
talking about the present.

0:49:15.565,0:49:18.323
And I believe what's happening is this, that students are being

0:49:18.323,0:49:20.849
indoctrinated by the confusion of terms:

0:49:20.849,0:49:22.833
the hijacking of the word science and the hijacking

0:49:22.833,0:49:26.267
of the word evolution in a bait-and-switch.

0:49:26.404,0:49:28.667
Let me illustrate further with this video clip.

0:49:29.152,0:49:31.893
Because here I assert that Bill Nye is equating

0:49:31.893,0:49:34.534
observational science with historical science.

0:49:34.800,0:49:38.500
And I also say it's not a mystery when you understand the difference.

0:49:38.515,0:49:42.185
Howie, people with these deeply held religious beliefs,

0:49:42.185,0:49:45.744
they embrace that whole literal interpretation

0:49:45.744,0:49:49.732
of the Bible as written in English, as a worldview.

0:49:50.032,0:49:54.234
And, at the same time, they accept aspirin,

0:49:54.533,0:49:58.838
antibiotic drugs, airplanes, but they're able

0:49:58.838,0:50:01.567
to hold these two worldviews. And this is a mystery.

0:50:02.384,0:50:04.564
Actually, I suggest to you it's not a mystery.

0:50:04.838,0:50:06.617
You see, when I'm talking about antibiotics,

0:50:06.617,0:50:09.376
aspirin, smoke detectors, jet planes,

0:50:09.376,0:50:12.560
that's Ken Ham the Observational Science Bloke.

0:50:12.560,0:50:15.497
I'm an Australian. We call guy's "blokes", okay?

0:50:15.967,0:50:18.237
But when you're talking about creation and thousands of years

0:50:18.237,0:50:19.265
of the age of the Earth,

0:50:19.265,0:50:20.808
that's Ken Ham the Historical Science Bloke.

0:50:20.808,0:50:22.224
I'm willing to admit that.

0:50:22.224,0:50:24.260
Now, when Bill Nye's talking about aspirin,

0:50:24.260,0:50:26.320
antibiotics, jet planes, smoke detectors,

0:50:26.320,0:50:27.668
he does a great job at that.

0:50:27.668,0:50:29.798
I used to enjoy watching him on TV too.

0:50:30.645,0:50:32.777
That's Bill Nye the Observational Science Guy.

0:50:32.789,0:50:35.071
But when he's talking about evolution and millions of years,

0:50:35.071,0:50:38.898
I'm challenging him that that's Bill Nye the Historical Science Guy.

0:50:39.294,0:50:42.439
And I challenge the evolutionist to admit the belief

0:50:42.439,0:50:46.075
aspects of their particular worldview.

0:50:46.706,0:50:49.330
Now, at the Creation Museum, we're only too willing

0:50:49.330,0:50:51.510
to admit our beliefs based upon the Bible,

0:50:51.510,0:50:53.554
but we also teach people the difference between

0:50:53.554,0:50:55.746
beliefs and what one can actually observe

0:50:55.746,0:50:57.070
and experiment with in the present.

0:50:57.070,0:50:59.595
I believe we're teaching people to think critically

0:50:59.595,0:51:02.695
and to think in the right terms about science.

0:51:03.157,0:51:04.889
I believe it's the creationists that should be

0:51:04.889,0:51:08.204
educating the kids out there because we're teaching

0:51:08.204,0:51:10.915
them the right way to think. You know, we admit it.

0:51:10.915,0:51:13.809
Our origins of historical science is based upon the Bible,

0:51:13.809,0:51:15.896
but I'm just challenging evolutionists to admit

0:51:15.896,0:51:17.529
the belief aspects of evolution

0:51:17.529,0:51:19.931
and be upfront about the difference here.

0:51:20.209,0:51:22.119
As I said, I'm only too willing to admit

0:51:22.119,0:51:24.530
my historical science based on the Bible.

0:51:25.192,0:51:30.047
And let me further go on to define the term "creation" as we use it.

0:51:30.937,0:51:34.012
By creation, we mean, here at Answers in Genesis

0:51:34.012,0:51:37.634
and the Creation Museum, we mean the account based on the Bible.

0:51:37.634,0:51:41.299
Yes, I take Genesis as literal history, as Jesus did.

0:51:41.299,0:51:44.951
And, here at the Creation Museum, we walk people through that history.

0:51:44.963,0:51:47.595
We walk them through creation, the perfect creation.

0:51:47.595,0:51:51.961
That God made Adam and Eve, land animal kinds, sea-creatures and so on.

0:51:51.961,0:51:54.342
And then sin and death entered the world.

0:51:54.342,0:51:56.667
There was no death before sin.

0:51:56.983,0:52:01.013
That means how can you have billions of dead things before man sinned?

0:52:01.013,0:52:05.651
And then, the catastrophe of Noah's flood. If there was a global flood,

0:52:05.651,0:52:09.795
you'd expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.

0:52:09.795,0:52:13.487
Had to say that because a lot of our supporters would want me to.

0:52:13.487,0:52:18.001
And what do you find?--Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.

0:52:18.002,0:52:22.695
Confusion, the tower of Babel. God gave different languages so you get different people groups.

0:52:22.695,0:52:28.417
So this is the geological, astronomical, anthropological, biological history as recorded in the Bible.

0:52:28.417,0:52:31.829
So this is concerning what happened in the past that explains the present.

0:52:31.829,0:52:36.485
And then, of course, that God's Son stepped into history to be Jesus Christ, the God-Man

0:52:36.485,0:52:39.389
to die on the cross, be raised from the dead. And one day there's going to be

0:52:39.389,0:52:43.132
a new heavens and a new earth to come. And, you know, not only

0:52:44.046,0:52:47.606
is this an understanding of history to explain the

0:52:47.606,0:52:51.712
geology, biology, astronomy, and so on to connect the present to the past.

0:52:51.712,0:52:54.293
But it's also a foundation for our whole world view.

0:52:54.293,0:52:58.524
For instance, in Matthew 19, when Jesus was asked about marriage, he said,

0:52:58.524,0:53:02.434
"Have you not read He who made them at the beginning made them male and female?"

0:53:02.436,0:53:06.856
And said, "For this cause shall a man leave his mother and father and be joined to his wife. And they'll be one flesh"

0:53:06.856,0:53:12.388
He quoted from Genesis as literal history--Genesis 1 and 2. God invented marriage, by the way.

0:53:12.388,0:53:15.600
That's where marriage comes from. And it's to be a man and a woman.

0:53:15.600,0:53:20.140
And not only marriage. Ultimately, every single Biblical doctrine of theology

0:53:20.140,0:53:22.517
directly or indirectly, is founded in Genesis.

0:53:22.517,0:53:24.665
Why is there sin in the world? Genesis.

0:53:24.998,0:53:26.533
Why is there death? Genesis.

0:53:26.837,0:53:28.334
Why do we wear clothes? Genesis.

0:53:28.334,0:53:29.556
Why did Jesus die on the cross? Genesis.

0:53:29.556,0:53:33.124
It's a very important book. It's foundational to all Christian doctrine.

0:53:33.126,0:53:36.700
And you see, when we look at that, what I call the seven C's of History

0:53:36.704,0:53:38.666
that we walk people through here at the museum,

0:53:38.666,0:53:41.476
think about how it all connects together--a perfect creation.

0:53:41.476,0:53:43.713
It'll be perfect again in the future.

0:53:43.722,0:53:47.293
Sin and death--end of the world. That's why God's son died on the cross

0:53:47.599,0:53:50.194
to conquer death and offer a free gift of salvation.

0:53:50.465,0:53:53.672
The flood of Noah's day, a reminder that the flood was a

0:53:53.672,0:53:56.316
judgement because of man's wickedness but at the same time

0:53:56.316,0:53:58.564
a message of God's grace and salvation.

0:53:58.564,0:54:01.119
As Noah and his family had to go through a door to be saved,

0:54:01.119,0:54:03.268
so we need to go through a door to be saved.

0:54:03.276,0:54:05.460
Jesus Christ said, "I am the door. By me, if any man

0:54:05.460,0:54:08.820
enter in, he'll be saved. And we make no apology

0:54:08.820,0:54:11.302
about the fact that what we're on about is this:

0:54:11.302,0:54:13.534
"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and

0:54:13.534,0:54:15.446
believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead,

0:54:15.446,0:54:17.835
you'll be saved. Now, as soon as I said that,

0:54:17.835,0:54:20.324
see if people say, "See, if you allow creation in schools,

0:54:20.324,0:54:22.519
for instance, if you'll ask students to even hear about it,

0:54:22.519,0:54:24.298
ah, this is religion."

0:54:24.652,0:54:26.382
You know, let me illustrate this,

0:54:26.382,0:54:30.945
talking about a recent battle in Texas over textbooks

0:54:30.945,0:54:35.232
in the public school. A newspaper report said this:

0:54:35.237,0:54:37.251
"Textbook and classroom curriculum battles have long

0:54:37.251,0:54:39.910
raged in Texas pitting creationists - those who see

0:54:39.910,0:54:41.506
God's hand in the creation of the universe-

0:54:41.506,0:54:42.881
against academics..."

0:54:42.881,0:54:45.792
Stop right there. Notice creationists... academics.

0:54:45.792,0:54:48.764
Creationists can't be academics. Creationists can't be scientists.

0:54:48.998,0:54:51.633
See, it's the way things are worded out there.

0:54:52.030,0:54:53.880
It's an indoctrination that's going on.

0:54:53.880,0:54:56.130
We worry about religious and political ideology

0:54:56.133,0:54:57.864
trumping scientific fact. Wait a minute.

0:54:57.864,0:54:59.130
What do I mean by science? You're talking about

0:54:59.130,0:55:02.167
what you observe, or are you talking about your beliefs about the past?

0:55:03.124,0:55:07.055
Now, Kathy Miller is the president of the Texas Freedom Network and

0:55:07.055,0:55:16.677
she has vocally spoken out. She's spoken out about this textbook battle there in Texas.

0:55:17.261,0:55:21.662
And the mission statement of the organization she's president of says, "The Texas Freedom Network

0:55:21.662,0:55:24.865
advances a mainstream agenda of religious freedom and individual liberties

0:55:24.865,0:55:29.969
to counter the religious right." Religious freedom... individual liberties. Hmm.

0:55:29.969,0:55:34.292
And then she makes this statement: "Science education..." What does she mean by science?

0:55:34.292,0:55:38.560
"should be based on mainstream science education, not on personal idealogical beliefs

0:55:38.560,0:55:43.263
of unqualified reviewers." Wait a minute. They want religious liberty and not personal

0:55:43.263,0:55:48.834
ideological beliefs? I assert this: public school textbooks are using the same word "science"

0:55:48.834,0:55:53.366
for observational and historical science. They arbitrarily define science as naturalism

0:55:53.369,0:55:57.042
and outlaw the supernatural. They present molecules-to-man evolution as as fact.

0:55:57.042,0:56:00.353
And they are imposing the religion of naturalism on generations of students.

0:56:00.353,0:56:02.830
They're imposing their ideology on the students

0:56:02.830,0:56:04.853
and everything's explained by natural processes.

0:56:04.853,0:56:07.592
That is a religion. What do you mean by religious liberty?

0:56:07.592,0:56:09.597
They tolerate their religion.

0:56:10.399,0:56:12.553
See, the battle is really about authority.

0:56:12.553,0:56:14.983
It's more than just science or evolution or creation.

0:56:14.983,0:56:18.363
It's about who is the authority in this world, man or God?

0:56:18.667,0:56:22.726
If you start with naturalism, then what about morals?

0:56:22.726,0:56:24.814
Who decides right and wrong? Well, it's subjective.

0:56:24.814,0:56:27.289
Marriage? Well, whatever you want it to be.

0:56:27.289,0:56:29.636
Get rid of old people. I mean, why not?

0:56:29.636,0:56:31.757
They're just animals, they're costing us a lot of money.

0:56:31.757,0:56:35.189
Abortion. Get rid of spare cats, get rid of spare kids. We're all animals.

0:56:35.189,0:56:38.282
But if you start from God's word, there are moral absolutes.

0:56:38.282,0:56:40.970
God decides right and wrong. Marriage--one man and one woman.

0:56:40.970,0:56:44.224
Sanctity of life--we care for old people. They're made in the image of God.

0:56:44.228,0:56:47.898
Life begins at fertilization, so abortion is killing a human being.

0:56:48.260,0:56:50.471
We do see the collapse of Christian morality

0:56:50.471,0:56:53.163
in our culture and increasing moral relativism

0:56:53.163,0:56:56.068
because generations of kids are being taught the religion

0:56:56.068,0:56:59.242
of naturalism and that the Bible can't be trusted.

0:56:59.251,0:57:03.067
And so, again, I say creation is the only viable model

0:57:03.067,0:57:05.849
of historical science confirmed by observational science

0:57:05.849,0:57:08.275
in today's modern scientific era. You know what?

0:57:08.283,0:57:10.897
I'm a science teacher. I want to see kids taught science.

0:57:10.903,0:57:14.299
I love science. I want to see more (inaudible) in the world.

0:57:14.467,0:57:16.317
You know, if we teach them the whole universe

0:57:16.317,0:57:19.390
is a result of natural processes and not designed

0:57:19.390,0:57:22.389
by a creative God, they might be looking in the wrong places

0:57:22.389,0:57:24.329
or have the wrong idea when they're looking

0:57:24.339,0:57:27.593
at the creation in regard to how you develop technology

0:57:27.593,0:57:30.698
because if they look at it as just random processes,

0:57:30.698,0:57:33.433
that could totally influence the way they think.

0:57:33.440,0:57:36.106
If they understand it was a perfect world marred by sin,

0:57:36.106,0:57:38.957
that could have a great affect on how they then look

0:57:38.957,0:57:41.966
for overcoming diseases and problems in the world.

0:57:42.200,0:57:45.622
I want children to be taught the right foundation,

0:57:45.622,0:57:47.863
that there's a God who created them, who loves them,

0:57:47.863,0:57:52.130
who died on the cross for them and that they're special.

0:57:52.130,0:57:53.798
They're made in the image of God.

0:57:55.069,0:57:56.581
(moderator) There you go. Thank you, Mr. Ham.

0:57:56.581,0:58:11.823
-We can applaud Mr. Ham's presentation.[br]-(audience applauds)

0:58:11.823,0:58:14.076
And, you know, it did occur to me when you had

0:58:14.076,0:58:16.875
my old friend Larry King up there, you could've just asked him.

0:58:17.276,0:58:20.499
He's been around a long time. And he's a smart guy!

0:58:20.499,0:58:25.086
He could probably answer for all of us. Now, let's all be

0:58:25.086,0:58:28.434
attentive to Mr. Nye as he gives us his 30 minute presentation.

0:58:28.668,0:58:31.872
Thank you very much and, Mr. Ham, I learned something.

0:58:31.875,0:58:37.266
Thank you. But let's take it back around to question at hand:

0:58:37.477,0:58:41.462
does Ken Ham's creation model hold up? Is it viable?

0:58:42.590,0:58:46.699
So, for me, of course...well...take a look.

0:58:46.899,0:58:53.366
We're here in Kentucky on layer upon layer upon layer of limestone.

0:58:53.493,0:58:56.401
I stopped at the side of the road today and picked up

0:58:56.401,0:59:00.267
just a piece of limestone. It has a fossil right there.

0:59:00.513,0:59:05.133
Now, in these many, many layers, in this vicinity of Kentucky,

0:59:05.467,0:59:10.263
there are coral animal--fossils, Zooxanthella--

0:59:10.263,0:59:11.913
and when you look at it closely,

0:59:11.913,0:59:14.450
you can see that they lived their entire lives.

0:59:14.450,0:59:18.199
They lived typically 20 years, sometimes more than that

0:59:18.567,0:59:20.500
when the water conditions are correct.

0:59:20.820,0:59:26.034
And so we are standing on millions of layers of ancient life.

0:59:27.225,0:59:30.172
How could those animals have lived their entire life,

0:59:30.519,0:59:33.833
and formed these layers, in just 4,000 years?

0:59:34.220,0:59:38.567
There isn't enough time since Mr. Ham's flood

0:59:38.735,0:59:43.466
for this limestone that we're standing on to come into existence.

0:59:46.097,0:59:49.103
My scientific colleagues go to places like Greenland,

0:59:49.103,0:59:52.307
the Arctic, they go to Antarctica, and they drill

0:59:52.307,0:59:57.211
into the ice with hollow drill bits. It's not that extraordinary.

0:59:57.211,0:59:59.816
Many of you have probably done it yourselves, drilling other things.

0:59:59.816,1:00:02.999
Hole saws to put locks in doors, for example.

1:00:03.421,1:00:09.433
And we pull out long cylinders of ice, long ice rods.

1:00:09.570,1:00:14.298
And these are made of snow and it's called "snow ice".

1:00:14.875,1:00:19.695
And snow ice forms over the winter as snowflakes fall

1:00:19.695,1:00:23.024
and are crushed down by subsequent layers. They're crushed together,

1:00:23.024,1:00:26.513
entrapping the little bubbles and the little bubbles must

1:00:26.513,1:00:30.288
needs be ancient atmosphere. There's nobody running around

1:00:30.288,1:00:34.196
with a hypodermic needle, squirting ancient atmosphere into the bubbles.

1:00:34.599,1:00:41.187
And we find certain of these cylinders to have 680,000 layers.

1:00:41.187,1:00:46.533
680,000 snow/winter/summer cycles.

1:00:47.329,1:00:53.433
How could it be that just 4,000 years ago all of this ice formed?

1:00:53.801,1:00:56.332
Let's just run some numbers.

1:00:57.184,1:01:00.899
This is some scenes from the lovely Antarctic.

1:01:01.518,1:01:05.399
Let's say we have 680,000 layers of snow ice

1:01:05.488,1:01:08.033
and 4,000 years since the Great Flood.

1:01:08.452,1:01:13.610
That would mean we'd need 170 winter-summer cycles

1:01:13.610,1:01:17.173
every year, for the last 4,000 years.

1:01:17.173,1:01:21.113
I mean, wouldn't someone have noticed that? Wow!

1:01:21.113,1:01:22.909
Wouldn't someone have noticed that there's been

1:01:22.909,1:01:25.832
winter-summer-winter-summer 170 times one year?

1:01:26.694,1:01:33.889
If we go to California, we find enormous stands of bristlecone pines.

1:01:33.889,1:01:38.348
Some of them are over 6,000 years old. 6,800 years old.

1:01:38.348,1:01:45.009
There's a famous tree in Sweden, Old Tjikko, is 9,550 years old.

1:01:45.380,1:01:53.200
How could these trees be there if there was an enormous flood just 4,000 years ago?

1:01:53.380,1:01:55.915
You can try this yourself, everybody.

1:01:55.915,1:01:58.453
Get, I mean, I don't mean to be mean to trees,

1:01:58.453,1:02:02.863
but get a sapling and put it under water for a year.

1:02:02.871,1:02:06.832
It will not survive in general. Nor will its seeds.

1:02:06.832,1:02:10.646
They just won't make it. So how could these trees

1:02:10.646,1:02:15.201
be that old if the Earth is only 4,000 years old?

1:02:15.283,1:02:18.407
Now, when we go to the Grand Canyon--which is an astonishing place

1:02:18.407,1:02:22.623
and I recommend to everybody in the world to someday visit the Grand Canyon--

1:02:22.623,1:02:25.965
you find layer upon layer of ancient rocks.

1:02:26.446,1:02:31.200
And if there was this enormous flood that you speak of,

1:02:31.663,1:02:35.299
wouldn't there have been churning and bubbling and roiling?

1:02:35.553,1:02:38.186
How would these things have settled out?

1:02:38.186,1:02:42.700
Your claim that they settled out in an extraordinary short amount of time

1:02:43.200,1:02:47.818
is for me, not satisfactory. You can look at these rocks. You can look at rocks that are younger.

1:02:47.818,1:02:53.564
You can go to seashores where there's sand. This is what geologists on the outside do,

1:02:53.725,1:02:58.598
study the rate at which soil is deposited at the end of rivers and deltas.

1:02:58.866,1:03:06.066
And we can see that it takes a long, long time for sediments to turn to stone.

1:03:06.211,1:03:11.881
Also, in this picture you can see where one type of sediment has intruded on another type.

1:03:11.881,1:03:18.113
Now, if that was uniform, wouldn't we expect it all to be even, without intrusion?

1:03:18.113,1:03:23.223
Furthermore, you can find places in the Grand Canyon where you see an ancient riverbed on that side

1:03:23.223,1:03:28.146
going to an ancient riverbed on that side and the Colorado River has cut through it.

1:03:28.146,1:03:34.656
And by the way, if this great flood drained through the Grand Canyon,

1:03:34.656,1:03:38.065
wouldn't there have been a Grand Canyon on every continent?

1:03:38.065,1:03:43.313
How could we not have Grand Canyons everywhere if this water drained away in this extraordinary

1:03:43.313,1:03:49.667
short amount of time? Four thousand years? Now when you look at these layers carefully,

1:03:50.250,1:03:56.668
you find these beautiful fossils. And when I say beautiful, I am inspired by them. They are remarkable

1:03:56.668,1:04:03.389
because we are looking at the past. You find down low. You'll find what you might consider

1:04:03.389,1:04:09.296
is, uh, rudimentary sea animals. Up above you'll find the famous trilobytes.

1:04:09.358,1:04:15.030
Above that you might find some clams, some oysters. And above that you find some mammals.

1:04:15.324,1:04:22.518
You never, ever find a higher animal mixed in with a lower one. You never find a lower one

1:04:22.518,1:04:28.371
trying to swim its way to a higher one. If it all happened in such an extraordinary short amount of time,

1:04:28.373,1:04:33.668
if this water drained away just like that, wouldn't we expect to see some turbulence?

1:04:33.668,1:04:41.395
And by the way, anyone here, really, if you can find one example of that, one example of that

1:04:41.395,1:04:47.726
anywhere in the world, the scientists of the world challenge you. They would embrace you. You would be a hero.

1:04:47.726,1:04:52.066
You would change the world if you could find one example of that anywhere.

1:04:52.066,1:04:57.100
People have looked, and looked and looked. They have not found a single one.

1:04:58.804,1:05:07.005
Now here's an interesting thing. These are fossil skulls that people have found all around the world.

1:05:07.005,1:05:13.468
It's by no means representative of all the fossil skulls that have been found, but these are all over the place.

1:05:14.011,1:05:24.331
Now, if you were to look at these, I can assure you, not any of them is a gorilla. Right?

1:05:24.847,1:05:33.513
If as Mr. Ham and his associates claim, there was just man and then everybody else, there were just

1:05:33.513,1:05:39.633
humans and all other species, where would you put modern humans among these skulls?

1:05:40.404,1:05:46.757
How did all these skulls get all over the earth in these extraordinary fashion? Where would you put us?

1:05:47.457,1:05:52.566
I can tell you we are on there and I encourage you, when you go home, to look it up.

1:05:54.478,1:06:04.529
Now, one of the extraordinary claims associated with Mr. Ham's worldview is that this giant boat

1:06:04.837,1:06:11.850
a very large wooden ship, went aground safely on a mountain in the Middle, what we now call the Middle East.

1:06:11.850,1:06:19.930
And so places like Australia are populated then by animals who somehow managed to get

1:06:20.460,1:06:25.420
from the Middle East all the way to Australia in the last 4,000 years.

1:06:26.147,1:06:32.324
Now that, to me, is an extraordinary claim. We would expect then, somewhere between the Middle East

1:06:32.324,1:06:37.382
and Australia, we would expect to find evidence of kangaroos. We would expect to find

1:06:37.992,1:06:43.134
some fossils, some bones in the last 4,000 years. Somebody would have been hopping along there

1:06:43.134,1:06:46.627
and died along the way, and we'd find them. And furthermore, there's a claim

1:06:46.627,1:06:52.258
that there was a land bridge that allowed these animals to get from Asia all the way

1:06:52.258,1:06:57.860
to the continent of Australia. And that land bridge has disappeared, has disappeared in the last

1:06:57.860,1:07:05.690
4,000 years. No navigator, no diver, no U.S. Navy submarine, no one has ever detected any evidence

1:07:05.690,1:07:12.144
of this, let alone any evidence of fossils of kangaroos. So, your expectation is not met.

1:07:12.144,1:07:20.910
It doesn't seem to hold up. So, let's see. If there are 4,000 years since Ken Ham's flood

1:07:20.910,1:07:27.532
and let's say, as he said many times, there are 7,000 kinds,

1:07:27.953,1:07:35.313
today the very, very lowest estimate is that there are about 8.7 million species.

1:07:35.313,1:07:39.829
But a much more reasonable estimate is it's 50 million, or even 100 million,

1:07:39.829,1:07:45.283
when you start counting the viruses and the bacteria and all the beetles that must be extant

1:07:45.283,1:07:51.740
in the tropical rain forests that we haven't found. So we'll take a number which I think is pretty reasonable,

1:07:51.740,1:07:59.859
16 million species today. If these came from 7,000 kinds,

1:07:59.859,1:08:03.502
let's say we have 7,000 subtracted from 15 million,

1:08:03.502,1:08:09.895
that's 15,993. If 4,000 years, we have 365.25 days a year,

1:08:10.305,1:08:16.024
we would expect to find 11 new species every day.

1:08:16.024,1:08:22.265
So you'd go out into your yard, you wouldn't just find a different bird, a new bird

1:08:22.291,1:08:26.760
you'd find a different kind of bird, a whole new species, a bird!

1:08:26.760,1:08:31.727
Every day, a new species of fish, a new species of organisms you can't see, and so on.

1:08:31.727,1:08:38.633
I mean, this would be enormous news. The last 4,000 years people would have seen these changes among us.

1:08:38.633,1:08:43.509
So the Cincinnati Enquirer, I imagine, would carry a column right next to the weather report:

1:08:43.509,1:08:50.251
Today's New Species, and it would list these 11 every day, but we see no evidence of that.

1:08:50.251,1:08:54.265
There's no evidence of these species. There simply isn't enough time.

1:08:54.332,1:08:58.731
Now as you may know, I was graduated from engineering school and I was,

1:08:58.733,1:09:07.298
I got a job at Boeing. I worked on 747s. I, okay everybody relax, I was very well supervised.

1:09:08.000,1:09:12.916
Everything's fine. There's a tube in the 747 I kind of think of that's my tube.

1:09:12.916,1:09:17.926
But that aside, I travelled the highways of Washington state quite a bit.

1:09:17.926,1:09:23.631
I was a young guy. I had a motorcycle. I used to go mountain climbing in Washington state... Oregon.

1:09:24.071,1:09:32.265
And you can drive along and find these enormous boulders on top of the ground, enormous rocks,

1:09:32.314,1:09:40.965
huge, sitting on top of the ground. Now, out there, in regular academic pursuits, regular geology,

1:09:41.573,1:09:46.892
people have discovered that there was, used to be a lake in what is now Montana

1:09:46.892,1:09:50.475
which we charmingly refer to as Lake Missoula.

1:09:50.475,1:09:54.698
It's not there now but the evidence for it, of course, if I may, overwhelming.

1:09:54.992,1:10:01.309
And so, an ice dam would form at Lake Missoula and once in a while it would break.

1:10:01.309,1:10:06.514
It would build up and break. And there were multiple floods in my old state of Washington state.

1:10:06.514,1:10:12.869
And, just, before we go on, let me just say, go Seahawks! That was very gratifying, very gratifying for me.

1:10:13.367,1:10:20.728
Anyway you drive along the road and there are these rocks. So, if as is asserted here at this facility,

1:10:20.728,1:10:25.233
that the heavier rocks would sink to the bottom during a flood event,

1:10:25.246,1:10:29.246
the big rocks, and especially their shape, instead of aerodynamic,

1:10:29.246,1:10:34.240
the hydrodynamic, the water changing shape, as water flows past,

1:10:34.240,1:10:38.919
you'd expect them to sink to the bottom. But here are these enormous rocks right on the surface.

1:10:38.919,1:10:42.857
And there's no shortage of them. If you go driving in Washington state or Oregon

1:10:42.857,1:10:49.803
they're readily available. So how could those be there if the Earth is just 4,000 years old.

1:10:49.803,1:10:53.432
How could they be there if this one flood caused that?

1:10:53.973,1:11:01.620
Another remarkable thing I'd like everybody to consider, alone inherent in this worldview,

1:11:01.620,1:11:11.056
is that somehow Noah and his family were able to build a wooden ship that would house

1:11:11.056,1:11:17.967
14,000 individuals. There were 7,000 kinds and then, there's a boy and a girl for each one of those,

1:11:17.967,1:11:22.893
so there's about 14,000... 8 people. And these people were unskilled.

1:11:23.205,1:11:27.246
As far as anybody knows they had never built a wooden ship before.

1:11:27.246,1:11:31.366
Furthermore, they had to get all these animals on there. And they had to feed them.

1:11:31.366,1:11:37.703
And I understand that Mr. Ham has some explanations for that, which I frankly find extraordinary but

1:11:38.873,1:11:45.966
this is the premise of the bit. And we can then run a test, a scientific test.

1:11:46.075,1:11:52.423
People in the early 1900s built an extraordinary, large wooden ship, the Wyoming.

1:11:52.423,1:12:00.056
It was a six-masted schooner, the largest one ever built. It had a motor on it for winching cables and stuff.

1:12:00.056,1:12:07.781
But this boat had a great difficulty. It was not as big as the Titanic, but it was a very long ship.

1:12:07.781,1:12:16.186
It would twist in the sea. It would twist this way, this way, and this way.

1:12:16.186,1:12:22.784
And in all that twisting, it leaked. It leaked like crazy. The crew could not keep the ship dry.

1:12:22.784,1:12:30.767
And indeed, it eventually foundered and sank, a loss of all 14 hands. So there were 14 crewmen

1:12:31.366,1:12:35.503
aboard a ship built by very, very skilled shipwrights in New England.

1:12:35.503,1:12:39.903
These guys were the best in the world at wooden shipbuilding. And they couldn't build

1:12:39.903,1:12:45.079
a boat as big as the Ark is claimed to have been.

1:12:45.079,1:12:51.186
Is that reasonable? Is that possible that the best shipbuilders in the world couldn't do

1:12:51.186,1:12:57.863
what eight unskilled people, men and their wives, were able to do?

1:12:57.863,1:13:06.377
If you visit the National Zoo, in Washington D.C., it's 163 acres. And they have 400 species.

1:13:06.377,1:13:12.336
By the way, this picture that you're seeing was taken by spacecraft in space, orbiting the Earth.

1:13:12.336,1:13:17.344
If you told my grandfather, let alone my father, that we had that capability,

1:13:17.344,1:13:21.941
they would have been amazed. That capability comes from our fundamental understanding

1:13:21.941,1:13:29.380
of gravity, of material science, of physics, and life science, where you go looking.

1:13:29.380,1:13:35.657
This place is often, as any zoo, is often deeply concerned and criticized for how it treats its animals.

1:13:36.330,1:13:44.791
They have 400 species on 163 acres, 66 hectares. Is it reasonable that Noah and his colleagues,

1:13:44.791,1:13:51.240
his family, were able to maintain 14,000 animals and themselves, and feed them, aboard a ship

1:13:51.240,1:13:54.366
that was bigger than anyone's ever been able to build?

1:13:54.805,1:14:02.479
Now, here's the thing, what we want in science, science as practiced on the outside,

1:14:03.260,1:14:11.010
is an ability to predict. We want to have a natural law that is so obvious and clear,

1:14:11.010,1:14:15.072
so well understood that we can make predictions about what will happen.

1:14:15.072,1:14:20.367
We can predict that we can put a spacecraft in orbit and take a picture of Washington D.C.

1:14:20.729,1:14:25.312
We can predict that if we provide this much room for an elephant, it will live healthily

1:14:25.312,1:14:30.743
for a certain amount of time. I'll give you an example.

1:14:32.808,1:14:38.765
In the explanation provided by traditional science, of how we came to be,

1:14:38.875,1:14:44.284
we find as Mr. Ham alluded to many times in his recent remarks,

1:14:44.284,1:14:49.369
we find a sequence of animals in what, generally, is called "the fossil record."

1:14:49.369,1:14:53.268
This would be to say when we look at the layers, that you would find in Kentucky,

1:14:53.268,1:14:58.267
you look at them carefully, you find a sequence of animals, a succession.

1:14:58.568,1:15:01.710
And as one might expect, when you are looking at old records

1:15:01.710,1:15:05.198
there's some pieces seem to be missing, a gap.

1:15:05.776,1:15:09.150
So scientists got to thinking about this.

1:15:09.150,1:15:13.976
There are lungfish that jump from pond to pond in Florida

1:15:13.976,1:15:15.958
and end up in people's swimming pools.

1:15:15.958,1:15:19.957
And there are amphibians, frogs and toads, croaking and carrying on.

1:15:19.957,1:15:25.668
And so people wondered if there wasn't a fossil or an organism,

1:15:25.668,1:15:29.165
an animal, that had lived, that had characteristics of both.

1:15:29.718,1:15:33.690
People over the years had found that in Canada,

1:15:33.690,1:15:36.716
there was clearly a fossil marsh--

1:15:36.716,1:15:39.685
a place that used to be a swamp that had dried out.

1:15:40.122,1:15:44.213
And they found all kinds of happy swamp fossils there:

1:15:44.213,1:15:49.316
ferns, organisms, animals, fish that were recognized.

1:15:49.316,1:15:52.889
And people realized that if this, with the age of the rocks there,

1:15:52.889,1:15:58.261
as computed by traditional scientists, with the age of the rocks there,

1:15:58.261,1:16:01.860
this would be a reasonable place to look for an animal,

1:16:01.860,1:16:07.672
a fossil of an animal that lived there. And, indeed, scientists found it.

1:16:07.672,1:16:10.864
Tiktaalik, this fish-lizard guy.

1:16:11.478,1:16:16.618
And they found several specimens, it wasn't one individual.

1:16:16.618,1:16:19.248
In other words, they made a prediction, that this animal

1:16:19.248,1:16:26.037
would be found and it was found. So far, Mr. Ham and his worldview,

1:16:26.037,1:16:30.006
the Ken Ham creation model, does not have this capability.

1:16:30.006,1:16:34.000
It cannot make predictions and show results.

1:16:34.094,1:16:38.497
Here's an extraordinary one that I find remarkable.

1:16:39.695,1:16:45.685
There are certain fish, the Topminnows, that have

1:16:45.685,1:16:51.328
the remarkable ability to have sex with other fish,

1:16:51.678,1:16:55.873
traditional fish sex, and they can have sex with themselves.

1:16:55.873,1:16:59.913
Now, one of the old questions in life science, everybody,

1:16:59.913,1:17:04.601
one of the old chin strokers is why does any organism,

1:17:04.800,1:17:12.691
whether you're an ash tree, a sea jelly, a squid, a marmot,

1:17:12.691,1:17:17.909
why does anybody have sex? I mean, there are more bacteria

1:17:17.909,1:17:21.735
in your tummy right now then there are humans on Earth.

1:17:21.735,1:17:23.444
And bacteria, they don't bother with that, man.

1:17:23.444,1:17:26.141
They split themselves in half, they get new bacteria!

1:17:26.141,1:17:29.816
Like, let's get her done! Let's go. But why does any--

1:17:29.816,1:17:34.528
think of all the trouble a rose bush goes to make a flower and the thorns

1:17:34.528,1:17:41.199
and the bees flying around, interacting--why does anybody bother with all that?

1:17:41.520,1:17:45.707
And the answer seems to be...your enemies.

1:17:45.707,1:17:51.764
And your enemies are not lions and tigers and bears...oh my!

1:17:51.764,1:17:55.909
No, your enemies are germs and parasites.

1:17:55.909,1:17:59.630
That's what's gonna get you. Germs and parasites.

1:17:59.630,1:18:05.723
My first cousin's son died tragically from essentially the flu.

1:18:05.723,1:18:09.039
This is not some story I heard about. This is my first cousin, once removed.

1:18:09.039,1:18:13.219
Because, apparently, the virus had the right genes to attack his genes.

1:18:13.219,1:18:16.476
So when you have sex you have a new set of genes.

1:18:16.476,1:18:20.904
You have a new mixture. So people studied these Topminnows.

1:18:20.904,1:18:24.830
And they found that the ones who reproduced sexually

1:18:25.097,1:18:29.981
had fewer parasites that the ones who reproduced on their own.

1:18:29.981,1:18:33.583
This Black Spot disease--wait, wait, there's more.

1:18:33.583,1:18:37.921
In these populations, with flooding and so on, when river ponds get isolated,

1:18:37.921,1:18:40.532
then they dry up, then the river flows again.

1:18:41.135,1:18:44.995
In between, some of the fish will have sex with other fish,

1:18:44.995,1:18:49.299
sometimes, and they'll have sex on their own, what's called asexually.

1:18:50.070,1:18:52.825
And those fish, the ones that are in between, sometimes this,

1:18:52.825,1:18:57.196
sometimes that, they have an intermediate number of infections.

1:18:57.683,1:19:02.799
In other words, the explanation provided by evolution made a prediction.

1:19:03.425,1:19:06.629
And the prediction's extraordinary and subtle, but there it is.

1:19:07.017,1:19:09.255
How else would you explain it?

1:19:09.255,1:19:14.412
And to Mr. Ham and his followers I say this is something we in science want.

1:19:14.412,1:19:18.190
We want the ability to predict. And your assertion

1:19:18.190,1:19:21.491
that there's some difference between the natural laws

1:19:21.491,1:19:24.746
that I use to observe the world today and the natural laws

1:19:24.746,1:19:30.062
that existed 4,000 years ago is extraordinary and unsettling.

1:19:31.433,1:19:35.056
I travel around. I have a great many family members

1:19:35.056,1:19:39.516
in Danville, Virginia, one of the U.S's most livable cities.

1:19:39.516,1:19:46.768
It's lovely. And I was driving along and there was a sign in front of a church:

1:19:46.768,1:19:50.415
"Big Bang theory? You got to be kidding me. God."

1:19:51.037,1:19:56.073
Now, everybody, why would someone at the church, a pastor for example,

1:19:56.353,1:20:03.179
put that sign up unless he or she didn't believe

1:20:03.179,1:20:06.963
that the big bang was a real thing? I just want to review,

1:20:06.963,1:20:09.860
briefly, with everybody why we accept,

1:20:10.286,1:20:13.931
in the outside world, why we accept the Big Bang.

1:20:16.127,1:20:23.169
Edwin Hubble, sorry, there you go, you gotta be kidding me God.

1:20:23.250,1:20:28.499
Edwin Hubble was sitting at Mount Wilson, which is up from Pasadena, California.

1:20:28.850,1:20:32.864
On a clear day you can look down and see where the Rose Parade goes.

1:20:32.864,1:20:35.020
It's that close to civilization.

1:20:35.020,1:20:40.329
But even in the early 1900's, the people who selected this site for astronomy

1:20:40.329,1:20:45.493
picked an excellent site. The clouds and smog are below you.

1:20:45.493,1:20:51.349
And Edwin Hubble sat there at this very big telescope night after night studying the heavens.

1:20:51.819,1:20:58.365
And he found that the stars are moving apart. The stars are moving apart.

1:20:58.790,1:21:07.210
And he wasn't sure why. But it was clear that the stars are moving farther and farther apart all the time.

1:21:07.661,1:21:11.166
So people talked about it for a couple decades.

1:21:11.166,1:21:15.562
And then eventually another astronomer, almost a couple decades, another astronomer

1:21:15.562,1:21:20.595
Fred Hoyle just remarked, "Well, it was like there was a big bang.

1:21:20.595,1:21:24.774
There was an explosion. This is to say; since everything's moving apart,

1:21:24.774,1:21:28.363
it's very reasonable that at one time they were all together.

1:21:28.363,1:21:32.691
And there's a place from whence, or rather whence, these things expanded."

1:21:32.691,1:21:35.063
And it was a remarkable insight.

1:21:35.063,1:21:38.433
But people went still questioning it for decades.

1:21:38.433,1:21:43.429
Scientists, conventional scientists, questioning it for decades.

1:21:44.736,1:21:51.294
These two researchers wanted to listen for radio signals from space--radio astronomy.

1:21:51.294,1:21:57.596
And this is while we have visible light for our eyes, there is a whole other bunch of waves of light

1:21:57.596,1:22:01.614
that are much longer. The microwaves in your oven are about that long.

1:22:01.614,1:22:07.761
The radar at the airport is about that long. Your FM radio signals about like this.

1:22:08.411,1:22:13.776
AM radio signals are a kilometer--they're a couple, several soccer fields.

1:22:14.136,1:22:21.201
They went out listening. And there was this hiss, this hisssssss, all the time

1:22:21.201,1:22:24.993
that wouldn't go away. And they thought "Oh! Doggone it. There's some loose

1:22:24.993,1:22:29.782
connector." They plugged in the connector. They rescrewed it. They made it tight.

1:22:29.782,1:22:31.957
They turned it this way. The hiss was still there.

1:22:31.957,1:22:33.539
They turned it that way. It was still there.

1:22:33.539,1:22:38.659
They thought it was pigeon droppings that had affected the reception of this "horn" it's called.

1:22:38.659,1:22:42.427
This thing is still there. It's in Basking Ridge, New Jersey.

1:22:42.427,1:22:49.419
It's a national historic site. And Arno Pinzius and Robert Wilson had found

1:22:49.419,1:22:55.283
this cosmic background sound that was predicted by astronomers.

1:22:55.283,1:22:58.873
Astronomers running the numbers, doing math, predicted

1:22:58.873,1:23:02.315
that in the cosmos would be left over this echo,

1:23:02.315,1:23:06.539
this energy, from the Big Bang that would be detectable.

1:23:06.539,1:23:13.629
And they detected it. We built the Cosmic Observatory for Background Emissions, the COBE spacecraft,

1:23:13.629,1:23:17.984
and it matched exactly, exactly the astronomers predictions.

1:23:18.572,1:23:22.011
You gotta respect that. It's a wonderful thing.

1:23:22.426,1:23:29.383
Now, along that line is some interest in the age of the earth.

1:23:29.383,1:23:34.650
Right now, it's generally agreed that the Big Bang happened 13.7 billion years ago.

1:23:35.540,1:23:41.026
What we can do on earth. These elements that we all know on the Periodic Table of Chemicals,

1:23:41.026,1:23:46.270
even ones we don't know, were created when stars explode.

1:23:46.270,1:23:51.202
And I look like nobody. But I attended a lecture by Hans Betta who won a Nobel

1:23:51.202,1:23:55.732
Prize for discovering the process by which stars create all these elements.

1:23:56.073,1:24:02.333
The one that interests me especially is our good friends Rubidium and Strontium.

1:24:02.333,1:24:06.383
Rubidium becomes Strontium spontaneously. It's an interesting thing to me.

1:24:06.383,1:24:11.513
A neutron becomes a proton. And it goes up the Periodic Table.

1:24:11.757,1:24:14.847
When lava comes out of the ground, molten lava,

1:24:14.847,1:24:18.521
and it freezes, turns to rock, when the melt solidifies,

1:24:18.521,1:24:23.041
or crystalizes, it locks the Rubidium and Strontium in place.

1:24:23.564,1:24:30.527
And so by careful assay, by careful, by being diligent, you can tell when the rock froze.

1:24:30.527,1:24:36.036
You can tell how old the Rubidium and Strontium are. And you can get an age for the earth.

1:24:36.036,1:24:41.993
When that stuff falls on fossils, you can get a very good idea of how old the fossils are.

1:24:41.993,1:24:46.661
I encourage you all to go to Nebraska, go to Ashfall State Park

1:24:46.661,1:24:51.332
and see the astonishing fossils. It looks like a Hollywood movie.

1:24:51.332,1:24:56.586
There are rhinoceroses. There are three-toed horses in Nebraska.

1:24:56.586,1:25:01.865
None of those animals are extant today. And they are buried, catastrophically, by a

1:25:01.865,1:25:05.307
volcano in what is now Idaho. Is now Yellowstone National Park.

1:25:05.307,1:25:08.490
What is called the hot spot. People call it the super-volcano.

1:25:08.490,1:25:12.500
And it's the remarkable thing. Apparently, as I can tell you, as a Northwesterner around

1:25:12.500,1:25:16.976
for Mount St. Helen's. For full disclosure I'm on the Mount St. Helen's Board.

1:25:16.976,1:25:20.302
When it (explosive sound), when it goes off it gives out a great deal of gas

1:25:20.302,1:25:24.686
that's toxic and knock these animals out. Looking for relief, they go to a watering

1:25:24.686,1:25:29.396
hole. And then when the ash comes they were all buried. It's an extraordinary place.

1:25:29.591,1:25:36.196
Now if in the bad old days, you had heart problems, they would right away cut you open.

1:25:36.779,1:25:43.167
Now, we use a drug based on Rubidium to look at the inside of your heart without cutting you open.

1:25:43.977,1:25:51.963
Now, my Kentucky friends, I want you to consider this. Right now, there is no place

1:25:51.963,1:25:57.093
in the Commonwealth of Kentucky to get a degree in this kind of nuclear medicine--

1:25:57.093,1:25:59.553
this kind of drugs associated with that.

1:25:59.799,1:26:04.333
I hope you find that troubling. I hope you're concerned about that.

1:26:04.333,1:26:11.078
You want scientifically literate students in your commonwealth for a better tomorrow for everybody.

1:26:11.186,1:26:15.465
You can, you can't get this here. You have to go out of state.

1:26:16.120,1:26:22.060
Now as far as the distance to stars. Understand this is very well understood.

1:26:22.060,1:26:26.811
We, it's February. We look at a star in February. We measure an angle to it.

1:26:26.811,1:26:31.301
We wait six months. We look at that same star again and we measure that angle.

1:26:31.301,1:26:37.117
It's the same way carpenters built this building. It's the same way surveyors surveyed the land that we're standing on.

1:26:37.117,1:26:42.042
And so by measuring the distance to a star, you can figure out how far away it is, that star,

1:26:42.042,1:26:46.290
and the stars beyond it, and the stars beyond that. There are billions of stars.

1:26:46.290,1:26:50.397
Billions of stars more than six thousand light years from here.

1:26:50.397,1:26:54.713
A light year is a unit of distance, not a unit of time.

1:26:54.713,1:27:00.804
There are billions of stars. Mr. Ham, how could there be billions of stars more distant

1:27:00.804,1:27:05.033
than six thousand years, if the world's only six thousand years old?

1:27:05.033,1:27:12.239
It's an extraordinary claim. There's another astronomer, Adolphe Quetele, who remarked first

1:27:13.709,1:27:23.723
about the reasonable man. Is it reasonable that we have ice older by a factor of a hundred than you claim the earth is?

1:27:23.723,1:27:26.990
We have trees that have more tree rings than the earth is old.

1:27:26.990,1:27:32.910
We have rocks with Rubidium and Strontium, and Uranium-Uranium, and Potassium-Argon dating

1:27:32.910,1:27:36.713
that are far, far, far older than you claim the earth is.

1:27:36.713,1:27:44.082
Could anybody have built an ark that would sustain the better than any ark anybody was able to build on the earth?

1:27:44.082,1:27:48.960
So, if you're asking me, and I got the impression you were,

1:27:48.960,1:27:55.622
is Ken Ham's creation model viable? I say "No! Absolutely not!"

1:27:55.622,1:28:01.961
Now, one last thing. You may not know that in the US Constitution, from the founding fathers,

1:28:02.311,1:28:06.383
is the sentence "to promote the progress of science and useful arts..."

1:28:08.162,1:28:11.939
Kentucky voters, voters who might be watching online,

1:28:11.939,1:28:16.733
in places like Texas, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kansas, please

1:28:16.733,1:28:19.914
you don't want to raise a generation of science students

1:28:19.914,1:28:23.494
who don't understand how we know our place in the cosmos,

1:28:23.494,1:28:26.487
our place in space, who don't understand natural law.

1:28:26.487,1:28:30.560
We need to innovate to keep the United States where it is in the world.

1:28:30.560,1:28:32.007
Thank you very much.

1:28:32.007,1:28:47.807
(applause)

1:28:48.297,1:28:51.467
Moderator: That's a lot to take in. I hope everybody's holding up well.

1:28:51.467,1:28:55.240
That's a lot of information. What we're going to have now is a five minute

1:28:55.240,1:28:58.962
rebuttal time for each gentleman to address the other one's comments.

1:28:58.962,1:29:03.929
And then there will be a five minute counter rebuttal after that.

1:29:03.929,1:29:06.192
Things are going to start moving a little more quickly now.

1:29:06.192,1:29:10.967
So at this point in particular, I want to make sure we don't have applauding or anything else going on that slows it down.

1:29:10.967,1:29:15.497
So, Mr. Hamm, if you'd like to begin with your five minute rebuttal first.

1:29:24.860,1:29:30.090
Mr. Hamm: First of all, Bill, if I was to answer all the points that you brought up,

1:29:30.090,1:29:33.898
the moderator would think that I was going on for millions of years. (laughter)

1:29:33.898,1:29:35.735
So I can only deal with some of them.

1:29:35.735,1:29:39.696
And you mentioned the age of the earth a couple of times, so let me deal with that.

1:29:39.696,1:29:44.702
As I said in my presentation, you can't observe the age of the earth.

1:29:44.702,1:29:48.882
I would say that comes under what we call historical origin science.

1:29:48.882,1:29:52.230
Now, just so you understand where I'm coming from.

1:29:52.230,1:29:57.098
Yes, we admit we build our origins from historical science on the Bible.

1:29:57.098,1:30:02.140
The Bible says God created in six days. A Hebrew word "yon" as it's used in Genesis 1

1:30:02.140,1:30:06.123
with evening/morning number means an ordinary day. Adam was made on day six.

1:30:06.123,1:30:09.969
And so, when you add up all those geneologies specifically given in the Bible

1:30:09.969,1:30:19.720
from Adam to Abraham you've got 2,000 years; from Abraham to Christ 2,000 years; from Christ to the present 2,000 years.

1:30:19.720,1:30:23.954
That's how we get 6,000 years. So that's where it comes from. Just so you know.

1:30:23.954,1:30:29.997
Now a lot of people say. Now, by the way, the earth's age is 4.5 billion years old.

1:30:29.997,1:30:35.227
And we have radioactive decay dating methods that found that.

1:30:35.227,1:30:38.391
But you see, we certainly observe radioactive decay

1:30:38.391,1:30:42.549
whether it's rubidium-strontium, whether it's uranium-lead, potassium-argon

1:30:42.549,1:30:46.199
But when you're talking about the past, we have a problem.

1:30:46.199,1:30:49.584
I'll give you a practical example. In Australia, there were engineers

1:30:49.584,1:30:53.165
that were trying to search out about a coal mine.

1:30:53.165,1:30:57.758
And so they drilled down and they found a basalt layer, a lava flow that had woody material in it--

1:30:57.758,1:31:04.272
branches and twigs and so on. And when Dr. Andrew Snelling, our PhD geologist,

1:31:04.272,1:31:08.346
sent that to a lab in Massachusetts in 1994, they used potassium-argon

1:31:08.346,1:31:10.990
dating and dated it at 45 million years old.

1:31:10.990,1:31:15.539
Well, he also sent the wood to the radio-carbon section of the same lab

1:31:15.539,1:31:20.172
and that dated at 45,000 years old. 45,000 year old wood in 45 million year old rock.

1:31:20.172,1:31:22.296
The point is there's a problem.

1:31:22.296,1:31:25.190
Let me give you another example of a problem.

1:31:25.190,1:31:30.302
There was a lava dome that started to form in the 80's after Mt. St. Helen's erupted.

1:31:30.302,1:31:36.883
And in 1994 Dr. Steve Austin, another PhD geologist, actually sampled the rock there.

1:31:36.883,1:31:45.076
He took whole rock, crushed it, sent it to the same lab actually, I believe, and got a date of .35 million years.

1:31:45.076,1:31:50.256
When he separated out the minerals amphibole and pyroxene and used potassium-argon dating,

1:31:50.256,1:31:56.594
he got .9 million and 2.8 million. My point is all these dating methods actually give all sorts of different dates.

1:31:56.594,1:32:01.962
In fact, different dating methods on the same rock, we can show, give all sorts of different dates.

1:32:01.962,1:32:04.769
See there's lots of assumptions in regard to radioactive dating.

1:32:04.769,1:32:09.426
Number one, for instance, the amounts of the parent and daughter isotopes at the beginning when the rock formed.

1:32:09.426,1:32:12.695
You have to know them. But you weren't there. See that's historical science.

1:32:12.695,1:32:15.716
Assumption 2: that all daughter atoms measured today

1:32:15.716,1:32:20.376
must have only been derived in situ radioactive decay of parent atoms.

1:32:20.376,1:32:21.643
In other words it's a closed system.

1:32:21.643,1:32:25.533
But you don't know that. And there's a lot of evidence that that's not so.

1:32:25.533,1:32:28.807
Assumption Number 3: that the decay rates have remained a constant.

1:32:28.807,1:32:30.713
Now they're just some of them. There's others as well.

1:32:30.713,1:32:33.616
The point is there's lots of assumptions in regard to the dating methods.

1:32:33.616,1:32:38.990
So there's no dating method you can use that you can absolutely age date a rock.

1:32:38.990,1:32:42.142
There's all sorts of differences out there.

1:32:42.142,1:32:45.902
And I do want to address the bit you brought up about Christians believing in millions of years.

1:32:45.902,1:32:48.340
Yeah, there's a lot of Christians out there that believe in millions of years,

1:32:48.340,1:32:52.100
but I'd say they have a problem. I'm not saying they're not Christians, but

1:32:52.100,1:32:55.768
because salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ, not the age of the earth.

1:32:55.768,1:32:58.639
But there's an inconsistency with what the Bible teaches.

1:32:58.639,1:33:04.043
If you believe in millions of years, you've got death and bloodshed, suffering, and disease

1:33:04.043,1:33:07.934
over millions of years leading to man, because that's what you see in the fossil record.

1:33:07.934,1:33:11.263
The Bible makes it very clear death is a result of man's sin.

1:33:11.263,1:33:15.999
In fact, the first death was in the garden when God killed an animal, clothed Adam and Eve,

1:33:15.999,1:33:20.366
first blood sacrifice pointing towards what would happen with Jesus Christ.

1:33:20.366,1:33:23.772
He would be the one who would die once and for all.

1:33:23.772,1:33:27.246
Now if you believe in millions of years as a Christian, in the fossil record

1:33:27.246,1:33:30.863
there's evidence of animals eating each other, Bible says originally all the animals

1:33:30.863,1:33:35.366
and man were vegetarian. We weren't told we could eat meat until after the flood.

1:33:35.366,1:33:40.067
There's diseases represented in the fossil record like brain tumors, but the Bible

1:33:40.067,1:33:42.300
says when God made everything it was very good.

1:33:42.300,1:33:44.234
God doesn't call brain tumors very good.

1:33:44.234,1:33:48.143
There's fossilized thorns in the fossil record said to be hundreds of millions of years old,

1:33:48.143,1:33:50.972
the Bible says thorns came after the curse.

1:33:50.972,1:33:53.763
So these two things can't be true at the same time.

1:33:53.763,1:33:57.231
You know what? There's hundreds of dating methods out there, hundreds of them.

1:33:57.231,1:34:03.695
Actually, 90% of them contradict billions of years. And the point is, all such dating methods are fallible.

1:34:03.695,1:34:08.177
And I claim, there's only one infallible dating method, it's a witness who was there,

1:34:08.177,1:34:11.533
who knows everything, who told us. And that's from the word of God.

1:34:11.533,1:34:16.500
And that's why I would say that the earth is only 6,000 years. And, as Dr. Faulkner said,

1:34:16.500,1:34:20.429
there's nothing in astronomy, and certainly Dr. Snelling would say, there's nothing in geology

1:34:20.429,1:34:25.264
to contradict a belief in a young age for the earth and the universe.

1:34:25.873,1:34:29.065
Moderator: Thank you Mr. Ham. Mr. Nye, your five-minute rebuttal please.

1:34:29.366,1:34:32.200
Mr. Nye: Thank you very much. Let me start with the beginning.

1:34:32.663,1:34:37.233
If you find 45 million year old rock on top of 45 thousand year old trees,

1:34:37.233,1:34:42.467
maybe the rock slid on top. Maybe that's it. That seems much more reasonable explanation

1:34:42.467,1:34:49.332
than, "It's impossible." Then as far as dating goes, actually the methods are

1:34:49.332,1:34:55.033
very reliable. One of the mysteries, or interesting things that people in my business,

1:34:55.033,1:35:00.363
especially at the Planetary Society, are interested in is why all the asteroids seem to be

1:35:00.363,1:35:06.900
so close to the same date in age. It's 4.5, 4.6 billion years.

1:35:06.900,1:35:11.367
It's a remarkable thing. People at first expected a little more of a spread.

1:35:11.367,1:35:19.618
So, I understand that you take the Bible as written in English, translated countless,

1:35:19.618,1:35:26.100
not countless, but many, many times over the last three millenia as to be a more accurate,

1:35:26.100,1:35:29.033
more reasonable assessment of the natural laws we see around us

1:35:29.033,1:35:37.732
than what I and everybody in here can observe. That to me is unsettling, troubling.

1:35:37.732,1:35:47.535
And then about the disease thing, are the fish sinners? Have they done something wrong to get diseases?

1:35:47.535,1:35:55.133
That's sort of an extraordinary claim that takes me just a little past what I'm comfortable with.

1:35:55.133,1:36:00.863
And then, as far as you can't observe the past, I have to stop you right there.

1:36:00.863,1:36:02.702
That's what we do in astronomy.

1:36:02.702,1:36:06.131
All we can do in astronomy is look at the past.

1:36:06.131,1:36:13.600
By the way, you're looking at the past right now. Because the speed of light bounces off of me

1:36:13.600,1:36:18.764
and then gets to your eyes. And I'm delighted to see that the people in the back of the room

1:36:18.764,1:36:23.532
appear just that much younger than the people in the front.

1:36:23.532,1:36:32.099
So this idea that you can separate the natural laws of the past from the natural laws that we have now,

1:36:32.099,1:36:37.732
I think is at the heart of our disagreement. [br]I don't see how we're ever going to agree with that

1:36:37.732,1:36:44.167
if you insist that natural laws have changed. It's, for lack of a better word, it's magical.

1:36:45.063,1:36:50.500
And I have appreciated magic since I was a kid, but it's not really what we want

1:36:50.500,1:37:02.266
in conventional, mainstream science. So, your assertion that all the animals were vegetarians

1:37:03.100,1:37:10.568
before they got on the ark. That's really remarkable. I have not spent a lot of time with lions,

1:37:10.568,1:37:14.733
but I can tell they've got teeth that really aren't set up for broccoli.

1:37:14.733,1:37:22.194
That these animals were vegetarians til this flood is something that I would ask you

1:37:22.194,1:37:28.961
to provide a little more proof for. I give you the lion's teeth, you give me verses

1:37:28.961,1:37:34.499
as translated into English over, what, 30 centuries?

1:37:34.499,1:37:39.722
So, that's not enough evidence for me. If you've ever played telephone, I did, I remember very well

1:37:39.722,1:37:43.163
in kindergarten where you have a secret and you whisper it to the next person, to the next person,

1:37:43.163,1:37:51.300
to the next person. Things often go wrong. So it's very reasonable to me that instead of lions being vegetarians on the ark,

1:37:51.300,1:38:01.797
lions are lions, and the information that you used to create your world view is not consistent with

1:38:01.797,1:38:11.399
what I, as a reasonable man, would expect. So, I want everybody to consider the implications of this.

1:38:12.441,1:38:23.667
If we accept Mr. Ham's point of view, that the Bible as translated into American English,

1:38:23.667,1:38:32.200
serves as a science text, and that he and his followers will interpret that for you,

1:38:32.200,1:38:39.635
Just, I want you to consider what that means. It means that Mr. Ham's word or his interpretation

1:38:39.635,1:38:46.407
of these other words, is somehow to be more respected than what you can observe in nature.

1:38:46.407,1:38:50.600
Than what you can find literally in your backyard, in Kentucky.

1:38:50.937,1:38:58.497
It's a troubling and unsettling point of view, and it's one I very much like you to address when you come back.

1:38:59.002,1:39:04.262
As far as the five races that you mentioned, it's kind of the same thing.

1:39:04.262,1:39:08.174
The five races were claimed by people who were of European descent,

1:39:08.174,1:39:12.301
and said, "Hey, we're the best! Check us out!" And that turns out to be,

1:39:12.301,1:39:17.130
if you've ever traveled anywhere or done anything, not to be that way.

1:39:17.130,1:39:20.297
People are much more alike than they are different.

1:39:20.297,1:39:26.067
So, are we supposed to take your word for English words translated over the last 30 centuries,

1:39:26.067,1:39:29.897
instead of what we can observe in the universe around us?

1:39:30.999,1:39:33.735
Moderator: Very good. And Mr. Ham, would you like to offer your five minute counter rebuttal?

1:39:37.968,1:39:41.534
Ken Ham: Uh, first of all, Bill, just so, I just don't want a misunderstanding here,

1:39:41.534,1:39:47.767
and that is, the 45,000-year-old wood, or supposedly 45,000 was inside the basalt.

1:39:47.767,1:39:54.300
Um, so, it was encased in the basalt. Uh, and that's why I was making that particular point.

1:39:54.300,1:39:59.367
And I would also say that natural law hasn't changed. As I talked about, you know,

1:39:59.367,1:40:03.728
I said we had the laws of logic, the uniformity of nature. And that only makes sense

1:40:03.728,1:40:07.668
within a biblical worldview anyway, of a creator God, who set up those laws,

1:40:07.668,1:40:11.200
and that's why we can do good experimental science, because we assume those laws are true,

1:40:11.200,1:40:20.764
and they'll be true tomorrow. I do want to say this, that you said a few times, you know,

1:40:20.764,1:40:26.034
Ken Ham's view or model. It's not just Ken Ham's model. We have a number of PhD scientists

1:40:26.034,1:40:31.433
on our own staff. I quoted, had video quotes, from some scientists.

1:40:31.433,1:40:40.301
It's Dr. Damadian's model. It's Dr. Fabich's model. It's Dr. Faulkner's model. It's Dr. Snelling's model.

1:40:40.301,1:40:44.658
It's Dr. Purdom's model. And so it goes on, in other words. And you go on our website,

1:40:44.658,1:40:50.861
and there are lots of creation scientists who agree with exactly what we're saying concerning

1:40:50.861,1:40:57.201
the Bible's account of creation. So it's not just "my model" in that sense.

1:40:57.201,1:41:05.168
There is so much that I can say, but, as I listen to you, I believe you're confusing terms

1:41:05.168,1:41:11.134
in regard to species and kinds. Because we're not saying that God created all those species.

1:41:11.134,1:41:16.100
We're saying God created kinds. And we're not saying species got on the ark, we're saying kinds.

1:41:16.100,1:41:19.799
In fact, we've had researchers working on what is a kind. For instance, there's a number of papers,

1:41:19.799,1:41:24.066
published on our website, where, for instance, they look at dogs. And they say, well, this one

1:41:24.066,1:41:28.600
breeds with this one, with this one, with this one. And you can look at all the papers around the world

1:41:28.600,1:41:31.835
and you can connect them all together and say that obviously represents one kind.

1:41:31.835,1:41:36.433
In fact, as they have been doing that research, they have predicted probably less than actually a thousand

1:41:36.433,1:41:41.966
kinds were on Noah's ark, which means just over 2,000 animals. And the average size of a land animal

1:41:41.966,1:41:48.367
is not that big so, you know, there was plenty of room on the ark. I also believe that

1:41:48.367,1:41:52.932
a lot of what you were saying was really illustrating my point. Uh, you were talking about tree rings

1:41:52.932,1:41:58.333
and ice layers and, just talking about kangaroos getting to Australia, and all sorts of things like that.

1:41:58.333,1:42:03.497
But see, we're talking about the past, when we weren't there. We didn't see those tree rings actually forming.

1:42:03.497,1:42:10.156
We didn't see those layers being laid down. You know, in 1942, for instance, there were some planes

1:42:10.156,1:42:15.033
that landed on the ice in Greenland. They found them, what, 46 years later, I think it was,

1:42:15.033,1:42:20.233
three miles away from the original location with 250 feet of ice buried on top of them.

1:42:20.233,1:42:24.496
So, ice can build up catastrophically. If you assume one layer a year, or something like that,

1:42:24.496,1:42:30.000
it's like the dating methods. You are assuming things in regard to the past that aren't necessarily true.

1:42:30.000,1:42:39.100
In regard to lions and teeth, bears, most bears have teeth very much like a lion or tiger, and yet, most bears

1:42:39.100,1:42:42.967
are primarily vegetarian. The panda, if you look at its teeth, you'd say, maybe it should be a

1:42:42.967,1:42:48.468
savage carnivore. It eats mainly bamboo. The little fruit bat in Australia has really sharp teeth,

1:42:48.468,1:42:51.900
looks like a savage little creature, and it rips into fruit.

1:42:51.900,1:42:56.600
Uh, so, just cause an animal has sharp teeth doesn't mean it's a meat eater. It means it has sharp teeth.

1:42:56.600,1:43:03.333
Uh, so again, it really comes down to our interpretation of these things.

1:43:03.333,1:43:07.443
I think too, in regard to the Missoula, uh, example that you gave, you know,

1:43:07.443,1:43:10.505
creationists do believe there's been post-flood catastrophism.

1:43:10.505,1:43:17.772
Noah's flood, certainly, was a catastrophic event. But then there's been post-flood catastrophism since that time as well.

1:43:17.772,1:43:22.134
And again, in regard to historical science, why would you say Noah was unskilled?

1:43:22.134,1:43:28.833
I mean, I didn't meet Noah, and neither did you. And you know, really, it's an evolutionary view of origins I believe

1:43:28.833,1:43:32.200
cause you're thinking in terms people before us aren't as good as us.

1:43:32.200,1:43:36.867
Hey, there are civilizations that existed in the past, and we look at their technology,

1:43:36.867,1:43:41.400
and we can't even understand today how they did some of the things that they did.

1:43:41.400,1:43:44.936
Who says Noah couldn't build a big boat? By the way, the Chinese and the Egyptians built boats.

1:43:44.936,1:43:49.134
In fact, some of our research indicates that some of the wooden boats that were built

1:43:49.134,1:43:52.739
had three layers interlocking so they wouldn't twist like that and leak, which is why,

1:43:52.739,1:43:58.866
here at the Creation Museum, we have an exhibit on the ark, where we've rebuilt 1% of the ark to scale

1:43:58.866,1:44:03.868
and shown three interlocking layers like that. And one last thing, concerning the speed of light,

1:44:03.868,1:44:09.667
and that is, I'm sure you're aware of the horizon problem. And that is, from a Big Bang perspective,

1:44:09.667,1:44:15.532
even the secularists have a problem of getting light and radiation out to the universe

1:44:15.532,1:44:20.700
to be able to exchange with the rest of the universe, to get that even microwave background radiation.

1:44:20.700,1:44:27.133
On their model, 15 billion years or so, they can only get it about halfway.

1:44:27.133,1:44:32.134
And that's why they have inflation theories, which means, everyone has a problem concerning the light issue.

1:44:32.134,1:44:35.770
There's things people don't understand. And we have some models on our website

1:44:35.770,1:44:38.923
by some of our scientists to help explain those sorts of things.

1:44:40.463,1:44:42.037
Moderator: Mr. Nye, your counter rebuttal.

1:44:42.967,1:44:46.010
Bill Nye: Thank you Mr. Ham, but I'm completely unsatisfied.

1:44:46.010,1:44:53.600
You did not, in my view, address this fundamental question. 680,000 years of snow ice layers

1:44:53.600,1:44:59.748
which require winter summer cycle. Let's say you have 2,000 kinds instead of seven.

1:44:59.748,1:45:05.734
That makes the problem even more extraordinary, multiplying eleven by what's, three and a half?

1:45:05.734,1:45:14.265
We get to 35... 40 species every day that we don't see, they're not extant.

1:45:14.265,1:45:20.166
In fact, you probably know we're losing species due to mostly human activity and the loss of habitat.

1:45:20.366,1:45:25.263
Then, as far as Noah being an extraordinary shipwright, I'm very skeptical.

1:45:25.697,1:45:33.165
The shipwrights, my ancestors, the Nye family in New England, took, spent their whole life learning to make ships.

1:45:33.632,1:45:38.399
I mean, it's very reasonable, perhaps, to you that Noah had superpowers

1:45:38.604,1:45:45.667
and was able to build this extraordinary craft with seven family members, but to me, it's just not reasonable.

1:45:45.867,1:45:53.100
Then, uh, by the way, the fundamental thing we disagree on, Mr. Ham,

1:45:53.304,1:46:00.431
is this nature of what you can prove to yourself. This is to say, when people make assumptions

1:46:01.633,1:46:06.631
based on radiometric data, when they make assumptions about the expanding universe,

1:46:06.765,1:46:12.762
when they make assumptions about the rate at which genes change in populations of bacteria

1:46:12.963,1:46:20.100
in laboratory growth media, they are making assumptions based on previous experience.

1:46:20.288,1:46:25.863
They're not coming out of whole cloth. So, next time you have a chance to speak,

1:46:25.997,1:46:34.532
I encourage you to explain to us why... why we should accept your word for it that natural law changed

1:46:36.718,1:46:43.467
just 4,000 years ago, completely. And there's no record of it. You know, there are pyramids that are older than that.

1:46:43.866,1:46:51.231
There are human populations that are far older than that, with traditions that go back farther than that.

1:46:51.563,1:46:56.264
And it's just not reasonable to me that everything changed 4,000 years ago.

1:46:56.432,1:47:01.962
By everything, I mean the species, the surface of the Earth, the stars in the sky,

1:47:02.464,1:47:07.067
and the relationship of all the other living things on Earth to humans.

1:47:07.263,1:47:10.300
It's just not reasonable to me that everything changed like that. (Snaps fingers.)

1:47:11.697,1:47:15.598
And another thing I would very much appreciate you addressing:

1:47:15.699,1:47:21.233
there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious. And I respect that.

1:47:22.167,1:47:27.698
People get tremendous community and comfort and nurture and support from their religious fellows

1:47:27.900,1:47:31.633
in their communities, in their faiths, in their churches.

1:47:32.465,1:47:34.965
And yet, they don't accept your point of view.

1:47:35.832,1:47:42.262
There are Christians who don't accept that the Earth could somehow be this extraordinary young age

1:47:42.732,1:47:48.565
because of all the evidence around them. And so, what is to become of them, in your view?

1:47:48.930,1:47:56.232
And by the way, this thing started, as I understand it, Ken Ham's creation model is based on the Old Testament.

1:47:56.832,1:48:01.528
So when you bring in, I'm not a theologian, when you bring in the New Testament,

1:48:01.697,1:48:08.597
isn't that little, uh, out of the box? I'm looking for explanations of the creation of the world

1:48:08.999,1:48:17.166
as we know it, uh, based on what I'm gonna call science. Not historical science, not observational science.

1:48:17.166,1:48:22.966
Science: things that each of us can do akin to what we do, we're trying to outguess the characters

1:48:23.363,1:48:30.400
on murder mystery shows, on crime scene investigation, especially.

1:48:30.933,1:48:35.200
What is to become of all those people, who don't see it your way?

1:48:35.702,1:48:41.697
For us, in the scientific community, I remind you, that when we find an idea that's not tenable,

1:48:42.032,1:48:49.658
that doesn't work, that doesn't fly, doesn't hold water, whatever idiom you'd like to embrace, we throw it away.

1:48:49.658,1:48:54.896
We are delighted. That's why I say, if you can find a fossil that has swum between the layers, bring it on!

1:48:55.364,1:49:00.364
You would change the world. If you could show that somehow the microwave background radiation

1:49:00.709,1:49:06.200
is not a result of the Big Bang, come on! Write your paper. Tear it up!

1:49:06.661,1:49:14.163
So, your view, that we're supposed to take your word for this book written centuries ago,

1:49:14.468,1:49:20.798
translated into American English, is somehow more important that what I can see with my own eyes,

1:49:21.030,1:49:27.464
is an extraordinary claim. And, for those watching online, especially, I want to remind you

1:49:27.600,1:49:31.252
that we need scientists, and especially engineers for the future.

1:49:31.900,1:49:36.733
Engineers use science to solve problems and make things. We need these people

1:49:36.897,1:49:40.632
so that the United States can continue to innovate and continue to be a world leader.

1:49:41.267,1:49:45.534
We need innovation, and that needs science education. Thank you.

1:49:46.100,1:49:51.265
Moderator: All right. Thank you both. Uh, now we're going to get to the things moving a little bit faster.

1:49:51.432,1:49:55.263
I think they might be quite interesting here. It's 40 to 45 minutes, maybe a little bit more, actually.

1:49:55.531,1:50:00.330
We'll have a little more. For questions and answers submitted by our audience here in the Creation Museum.

1:50:00.500,1:50:04.993
Beforehand, we handed out these cards to everyone. I shuffled them here in the back,

1:50:04.993,1:50:07.732
and in fact, I dropped a lot of them, and then I scooped them up again.

1:50:07.967,1:50:13.864
And if you saw me sorting through them here, it was to get a pile for Mr. Nye and a pile for Mr. Ham,

1:50:14.200,1:50:18.866
so that we can alternate reasonably between them. Other than that, the only reason I will skip over one

1:50:19.066,1:50:23.631
is if I can't read it, or if it's a question that I don't know how to read because it doesn't seem to make any sense,

1:50:23.833,1:50:27.333
which sometimes happens just because of the way people write. (Audience laughs.)

1:50:27.497,1:50:31.493
What's going to happen is we're gonna go back and forth between Mr. Nye and Mr. Ham.

1:50:31.704,1:50:36.600
Each debater will have two minutes to answer the question addressed to him,

1:50:36.729,1:50:41.895
and then the other will have one minute to also answer the question, even though it was addressed to the other man.

1:50:41.981,1:50:44.725
And I did pull one card aside here, because I noticed it was to both men.

1:50:44.725,1:50:49.567
So we may be able to get to that at some point. Mr. Ham, you've been up first, if you'll hop up first this time.

1:50:49.634,1:50:52.733
And Mr. Nye, you can stand by for your responses. Two minutes.

1:50:52.834,1:51:00.297
How does creationism account for the celestial bodies: planets, stars, moons moving further and further apart?

1:51:00.399,1:51:03.632
And what function does that serve in the grand design?

1:51:04.265,1:51:09.966
Ken Ham: Well, when it comes to looking at the universe, of course, we believe, that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

1:51:10.164,1:51:15.235
And I believe our creationist astronomers would say, "Yeah, you can observe the universe expanding."

1:51:15.700,1:51:20.430
Why God is doing that? In fact, in Bible it even says He stretches out the heavens.

1:51:20.996,1:51:24.630
And seems to indicate that there is an expansion of the universe.

1:51:25.030,1:51:30.801
And so, we would say, yeah, you can observe that. That fits with what we call observational science.

1:51:30.965,1:51:34.833
Exactly why God did it that way? I can't answer that question, of course,

1:51:35.097,1:51:40.143
because, you know, the Bible says that God made the heavens for his glory.

1:51:40.397,1:51:47.302
And that's why he made the stars that we see out there. And it's to tell us how great He is and how big He is.

1:51:47.467,1:51:53.453
And in fact, I think that's the thing about the universe. The universe is so large, so big out there.

1:51:53.453,1:51:58.832
One of our planetarium programs looks at this. We go in and show you how large the universe is.

1:51:58.965,1:52:05.365
And I think it shows us how great God is, how big He is, that He's an all-powerful God,

1:52:05.365,1:52:11.931
He's an infinite God, an infinite, all-knowing God who created the universe to show us his power.

1:52:12.021,1:52:16.031
I mean, can you imagine that, and the thing that's really remarkable in the Bible.

1:52:16.102,1:52:21.332
For instance, it says on the fourth day of creation, and oh, he made the stars also.

1:52:21.427,1:52:26.864
It's almost like, "Oh, by the way, I made the stars." Um, and just to show us He's an all-powerful God.

1:52:26.938,1:52:31.398
He's an infinite God. So, "I made the stars." And he made them to show us how great He is.

1:52:31.500,1:52:35.566
And He is. He's an infinite creator God. And the more that you understand what that means,

1:52:35.671,1:52:41.304
that God is all-powerful, infinite, you stand back in awe. You realize how small we are.

1:52:41.371,1:52:48.200
You realize, wow, that God would consider this planet, is so significant that he created human beings here,

1:52:48.238,1:52:52.899
knowing they would sin, and yet stepped into history to die for us and be raised from the dead.

1:52:53.023,1:52:57.400
Our verse, the free gift of salvation. Wow! What a God!

1:52:57.464,1:53:00.699
And that's what I would say when I see the universe as it is.

1:53:00.768,1:53:04.028
Moderator: Mr. Nye, one minute. And your response?

1:53:04.100,1:53:10.865
Bill Nye: There's a question that troubles us all from the time when we are absolutely youngest and first able to think.

1:53:10.865,1:53:15.033
And that is, where did we come from? Where did I come from?

1:53:15.033,1:53:21.098
And this question is so compelling that we've invented the science of astronomy.

1:53:21.180,1:53:24.598
We've invented life science. We've invented physics.

1:53:24.731,1:53:31.066
We've discovered these natural laws so that we can learn more about our origin and where we came from.

1:53:31.182,1:53:38.267
To you, when it says, He invented the stars also, that's satisfying. You're done.

1:53:38.631,1:53:43.477
Oh, good. Okay. To me, when I look at the night sky, I want to know what's out there.

1:53:43.477,1:53:49.598
I'm driven. I want to know if what's out there is any part of me, and indeed, it is.

1:53:50.737,1:53:55.180
The "oh, by the way" I find compelling you are satisfied.

1:53:55.180,1:54:00.401
And the big thing I want from you, Mr. Ham, is can you come up with something that you can predict?

1:54:00.451,1:54:04.863
Do you have a creation model that predicts something that will happen in nature?

1:54:04.863,1:54:08.063
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Nye, the next question is for you.

1:54:08.143,1:54:11.566
How did the atoms that created the Big Bang get there?

1:54:11.601,1:54:20.232
Bill Nye: This is the great mystery. You've hit the nail on the head. No, this is so, where did, what was before the Big Bang?

1:54:20.335,1:54:25.767
This is what drives us. This is what we want to know. Let's keep looking. Let's keep searching.

1:54:25.767,1:54:31.699
Uh, when I was young, it was presumed that the universe was slowing down.

1:54:31.699,1:54:37.431
It's a big bang, phrooo! Except it's in outer space, there's no air, so (quietly) it goes out like that.

1:54:37.431,1:54:44.786
And so people presumed that it would slow down, that the universe, the gravity, especially,

1:54:44.786,1:54:48.814
would hold everything together and maybe it's going to come back and explode again.

1:54:48.814,1:54:52.400
And people went out. And the mathematical expression is: is the universe flat?

1:54:52.449,1:54:58.431
It's a mathematical expression. Will the universe slow down, slow down, slow down asymptotically without ever stopping?

1:54:58.431,1:55:06.465
Well, in 2004, Saul Perlmutter and his colleagues went looking for the rate at which the universe was slowing down.

1:55:07.844,1:55:11.965
Let's go out and measure it. And we're doing it with this extraordinary system of telescopes around the world,

1:55:12.062,1:55:19.235
looking at the night sky, looking for supernovae. These are a standard brightness that you can infer distances with.

1:55:19.313,1:55:25.400
And the universe isn't slowing down. It's accelerating! The universe is accelerating in its expansion.

1:55:25.400,1:55:31.166
And do you know why? Nobody knows why! (audience laughs) Nobody knows why.

1:55:31.214,1:55:37.962
And you'll hear the expression nowadays, dark energy, dark matter, which are mathematical ideas that seem

1:55:37.962,1:55:45.235
to reckon well with what seems to be the gravitational attraction of clusters of stars, galaxies, and their expansion.

1:55:45.335,1:55:52.196
And then, isn't it reasonable that whatever's out there, causing the universe to expand, is here also?

1:55:52.281,1:55:55.030
And we just haven't figured out how to detect it.

1:55:55.102,1:56:01.396
My friends, suppose a science student from the commonwealth of Kentucky pursues a career in science

1:56:01.396,1:56:08.860
and finds out the answer to that deep question? Where did we come from? What was before the Big Bang?

1:56:08.860,1:56:14.096
To us, this is wonderful and charming and compelling. This is what makes us get up and go to work everyday,

1:56:14.147,1:56:16.334
is to try to solve the mysteries of the universe.

1:56:16.334,1:56:18.933
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham, a response?

1:56:19.013,1:56:22.463
Ken Ham: Uh, Bill, I just want to let you know that there actually is

1:56:22.476,1:56:27.831
a book out there that actually tells us where matter came from. (Audience laughs.)

1:56:27.831,1:56:33.531
And, the very first sentence in that book says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

1:56:33.649,1:56:39.199
And really, that's the only thing that makes sense. That's the only thing that makes sense of why, not just matter is here,

1:56:39.246,1:56:49.002
where it came from, but why matter, when you look at it, we have information and language systems that build life.

1:56:49.033,1:56:53.833
We're not just matter. And where did that come from? Because matter can never produce information.

1:56:53.901,1:56:57.761
Matter can never produce a language system. Languages only come from intelligence.

1:56:57.842,1:57:03.768
Information only comes from information. The Bible tells us that the things we see, like in the book of Hebrews,

1:57:03.768,1:57:09.733
are made from things that are unseen. An infinite creator God who created the universe,

1:57:09.733,1:57:14.596
created matter, the energy, space, mass, time universe, and created the information for life.

1:57:14.642,1:57:16.933
It's the only thing that makes logical sense.

1:57:16.984,1:57:21.123
Moderator: Alright, Mr. Ham, a new question here. The overwhelming majority of people in the

1:57:21.123,1:57:25.657
scientific community have presented valid, physical evidence, such as carbon dating and fossils,

1:57:25.657,1:57:32.965
to support evolutionary theory. What evidence besides the literal word of the Bible supports creationism?

1:57:33.050,1:57:37.199
Ken Ham: Well, first of all, you know, I often hear people talking about "the majority".

1:57:37.199,1:57:41.967
I would agree that the majority of scientists would believe

1:57:41.967,1:57:45.215
in millions of years and the majority would believe in evolution,

1:57:45.215,1:57:48.533
but there's a large group out there that certainly don't.

1:57:48.666,1:57:56.934
But, first thing I want to say is, it's not the majority that's the judge of truth.

1:57:57.003,1:58:01.032
There have been many times in the past when the majority have got it wrong.

1:58:01.126,1:58:04.497
The majority of doctors in England once thought after you cut up bodies,

1:58:04.497,1:58:06.005
you could go and deliver babies and wondered why

1:58:06.005,1:58:08.063
the death rate was high in hospitals,

1:58:08.063,1:58:13.300
till they found out about diseases caused by bacteria and so on.

1:58:13.362,1:58:17.651
The majority once thought the appendix was a leftover organ

1:58:17.651,1:58:20.531
from evolutionary ancestry, so, you know, when it's okay,

1:58:20.531,1:58:23.731
rip it out. When it's diseased, rip it out. Rip it out anyway.

1:58:23.781,1:58:28.268
But these days we know that it's for the immune system

1:58:28.355,1:58:29.733
and it's very, very important.

1:58:29.733,1:58:33.633
So, you know, it's important to understand that just because

1:58:33.650,1:58:36.630
the majority believe something doesn't mean that it's true.

1:58:36.710,1:58:40.162
And then, I'm sorry, I missed the last part of the question there.

1:58:40.199,1:58:43.766
Moderator: What was the--let me make sure I have the right question here--

1:58:43.814,1:58:47.329
So what evidence besides the literal word of the bible--

1:58:47.405,1:58:50.872
Ken Ham: Okay, one of the things I was doing was making predictions.

1:58:50.872,1:58:53.166
I made some predictions. There's a whole list of predictions.

1:58:53.166,1:58:56.536
And I was saying, if the Bible's right and we're all descendants

1:58:56.536,1:58:59.652
of Adam and Eve, there's one race. And I went through and talked about that.

1:58:59.652,1:59:02.386
If the Bible's right and God made kinds, I went through

1:59:02.386,1:59:06.492
and talked about that. And, so, really that question comes down

1:59:06.492,1:59:09.483
to the fact that we're again dealing with the fact that there's aspects

1:59:09.483,1:59:12.197
about the past that you can't scientifically prove because

1:59:12.201,1:59:14.695
you weren't there, but observational science in the present.

1:59:14.695,1:59:18.230
Bill and I all have the same observational science. We're here in the present.

1:59:18.230,1:59:21.765
We can see radioactivity, but when it comes to then talking about the past,

1:59:21.765,1:59:24.067
you're not going to be scientifically able to prove that.

1:59:24.067,1:59:28.127
And that's what we need to admit. We can be great scientists in the present,

1:59:28.127,1:59:32.700
as the examples I gave you of Dr. Damadian or Dr. Stuart Burgess

1:59:32.700,1:59:36.193
or Dr. Fabich and we can be investigating the present.

1:59:36.193,1:59:38.855
Understanding the past is a whole different matter.

1:59:39.225,1:59:40.698
Moderator: Mr. Nye, one minute response.

1:59:40.698,1:59:45.700
Thank you, Mr. Ham. I have to disabuse you of a fundamental idea.

1:59:46.682,1:59:51.390
If a scientist, if anybody, makes a discovery that changes

1:59:51.390,1:59:56.374
the way people view natural law, scientists embrace him or her!

1:59:56.374,2:00:00.823
This person's fantastic. Louis Pasteur--you made reference to germs.

2:00:00.823,2:00:06.832
Now, if you find something that changes, that disagrees with common thought,

2:00:06.832,2:00:08.900
that's the greatest thing going in science.

2:00:08.900,2:00:11.982
We look forward to that change. We challenge you--

2:00:11.982,2:00:14.957
tell us why the universe is accelerating.

2:00:14.957,2:00:18.243
Tell us why these mothers were getting sick.

2:00:18.243,2:00:24.114
And we found an explanation for it. And the idea that the majority

2:00:24.114,2:00:28.274
has sway in science is true only up a point.

2:00:28.274,2:00:30.511
And then, the other thing I just want to point out, what you may

2:00:30.511,2:00:34.316
have missed in evolutionary explanations of life

2:00:34.316,2:00:38.032
is it's the mechanism by which we add complexity.

2:00:38.040,2:00:41.165
The earth is getting energy from the sun all the time.

2:00:41.165,2:00:44.780
And that energy is used to make lifeforms somewhat more complex.

2:00:44.780,2:00:46.127
Moderator: And that's time.

2:00:46.588,2:00:48.081
New question for you, Mr. Nye.

2:00:48.081,2:00:51.011
How did consciousness come from matter?

2:00:51.300,2:00:55.300
Bill Nye: Don't know. This is a great mystery.

2:00:55.426,2:01:02.565
A dear friend of mine is a neurologist. She studies the nature of consciousness.

2:01:02.661,2:01:09.366
Now I will say I used to embrace a joke about dogs.

2:01:09.480,2:01:11.600
I love dogs. I mean, who doesn't?

2:01:11.603,2:01:15.117
And you can say, this guy remarked,

2:01:15.117,2:01:20.371
"I've never seen a dog paralyzed by self-doubt." Actually, I have.

2:01:20.371,2:01:27.527
Furthermore, the thing that we celebrate, there are three sundials

2:01:27.527,2:01:30.450
on the planet Mars that bare an inscription to the future:

2:01:30.450,2:01:34.925
"To those who visit here, we wish you a safe journey and the joy of discovery."

2:01:34.925,2:01:38.300
It's inherently optimistic about the future of humankind,

2:01:38.300,2:01:41.807
that we will one day walk on Mars. But the joy of discovery...

2:01:41.807,2:01:46.392
that's what drives us. The joy of finding out what's going on.

2:01:46.392,2:01:50.030
So we don't know where consciousness comes from. But we want to find out.

2:01:50.030,2:01:54.431
Furthermore, I'll tell you it's deep within us. I claim that I

2:01:54.431,2:01:58.433
have spent time with dogs that have had the joy of discovery!

2:01:58.433,2:02:03.022
It's way inside us! We have one ancestor, as near as we can figure.

2:02:03.022,2:02:07.994
And, by the way, if you can find what we in science call "a second genesis",

2:02:07.994,2:02:11.654
this is to say, "Did life start another way on the earth?"

2:02:11.654,2:02:15.266
There are researchers at Astrobiology Institute,

2:02:15.266,2:02:17.174
researchers supported by NASA, your tax dollars,

2:02:17.174,2:02:19.707
that are looking for answers to that very question.

2:02:19.707,2:02:21.536
Is it possible that life could start another way?

2:02:22.359,2:02:25.878
Is there some sort of life form akin to science fiction

2:02:25.878,2:02:29.603
that's crystal instead of membranous. This would be a fantastic

2:02:29.613,2:02:32.320
discovery that would change the world!

2:02:32.320,2:02:34.951
The nature of consciousness is a mystery.

2:02:34.951,2:02:39.727
I challenge the young people here to investigate that very question.

2:02:39.729,2:02:43.655
And I remind you--taxpayers and voters that might be watching--

2:02:43.655,2:02:46.991
if we do not embrace the process of science,

2:02:46.991,2:02:50.375
and I mean in the mainstream, we will fall behind economically.

2:02:50.375,2:02:52.366
This is a point I can't say enough.

2:02:52.484,2:02:54.565
Moderator: Mr. Ham, a one minute response.

2:02:54.766,2:03:00.769
Ken Ham: Bill, I do want to say that there is a book out there... (audience laughs)

2:03:00.769,2:03:03.676
that does document where consciousness came from.

2:03:03.676,2:03:09.297
And in that book, the one who created us said that he made man in His image,

2:03:09.297,2:03:12.792
and He breathed into man, and he became a living being.

2:03:12.792,2:03:18.443
And so, the Bible does document that. That's where consciousness came from,

2:03:18.443,2:03:21.578
that God gave it to us. And, you know, the other thing I want to say is,

2:03:21.578,2:03:27.596
I'm sorta of a little, I have a mystery. That is, you talk about the joy of discovery

2:03:27.596,2:03:31.567
but you also say that when you die, it's over, and that's the end of you.

2:03:31.567,2:03:37.169
And if when you die, it's over, and you don't even remember you were here, what's the point of the joy of discovery anyway?

2:03:37.169,2:03:42.591
I mean, in an ultimate sense? I mean, you know, you won't ever know you were ever here,

2:03:42.591,2:03:47.191
and no one who knew you will know they were ever here, ultimately, so what's the point anyway?

2:03:47.191,2:03:52.100
I love the joy of discovery because this is God's creation,

2:03:52.100,2:03:58.306
and I'm finding more out about that to take dominion for man's good and for God's glory.

2:03:58.306,2:04:00.296
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham, a new question.

2:04:00.367,2:04:06.299
This is a simple question, I suppose, but one that actually is fairly profound for all of us, in our lives.

2:04:06.374,2:04:10.674
What, if anything, would ever change your mind?

2:04:11.256,2:04:18.995
Ken Ham: Hmm. Well, the answer to that question is,

2:04:19.892,2:04:26.465
I'm a Christian, and as a Christian, I can't prove it to you,

2:04:26.925,2:04:32.781
but God has definitely, shown me very clearly

2:04:32.781,2:04:39.351
through His Word, and shown Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.

2:04:39.731,2:04:43.501
The Bible is the Word of God. I admit that that's where I start from.

2:04:43.914,2:04:46.834
I can challenge people that you can go and test that.

2:04:47.145,2:04:51.155
You can make predictions based on that. You can check the prophecies in the Bible.

2:04:51.155,2:04:55.303
You can check the statements in Genesis. You can check that.

2:04:55.303,2:05:00.130
I did a little bit of that tonight. And I can't ultimately prove that to you.

2:05:00.130,2:05:05.331
All I can do is to say to someone, "Look, if the Bible really is what it claims to be,

2:05:05.333,2:05:09.632
if it really is the Word of God, and that's what it claims, then check it out."

2:05:09.632,2:05:13.498
And the Bible says, "If you come to God believing that He is, He'll reveal Himself to you."

2:05:13.498,2:05:17.192
And you will know. As Christians, we can say we know.

2:05:17.192,2:05:23.102
And so, as far as the Word of God is concerned, no, no one's ever going to convince me

2:05:23.102,2:05:29.564
that the Word of God is not true. But I do want to make a distinction here.

2:05:29.564,2:05:33.080
And for Bill's sake. We build models based upon the Bible.

2:05:33.080,2:05:35.091
And those models are always subject to change.

2:05:35.091,2:05:38.046
The fact of Noah's flood is not subject to change.

2:05:38.046,2:05:41.192
The model of how the flood occurred is subject to change

2:05:41.192,2:05:45.193
because we observe in the current world,

2:05:45.193,2:05:50.206
and we're able to come up with different ways this could have happened or that could have happened.

2:05:50.206,2:05:53.900
And that's part of that scientific discovery. That's part of what it's all about.

2:05:54.489,2:06:00.006
So, the bottom line is that as a Christian, I have a foundation.

2:06:00.006,2:06:04.400
That as a Christian, I would ask Bill a question. What would change your mind?

2:06:04.400,2:06:09.054
I mean, you said, even if you came to faith, you'd never give up believing in billions of years.

2:06:09.054,2:06:13.301
I think I quoted you correctly. You said something like that recently.

2:06:13.301,2:06:15.865
So that would be also my question to Bill.

2:06:16.042,2:06:17.866
Moderator: Time. Mr. Nye?

2:06:18.032,2:06:20.365
Bill Nye: We would just need one piece of evidence.

2:06:20.507,2:06:23.766
We would need the fossil that swam from one layer to another.

2:06:23.934,2:06:26.165
We would need evidence that the universe is not expanding.

2:06:26.334,2:06:30.188
We would need evidence that the stars appear to be far away, but in fact, they're not.

2:06:30.188,2:06:34.827
We would need evidence that rock layers can somehow form

2:06:34.827,2:06:37.953
in just 4,000 years instead of the extraordinary amount.

2:06:37.953,2:06:43.496
We would need evidence that somehow you can reset atomic clocks and keep neutrons from becoming protons.

2:06:43.496,2:06:49.266
You bring on any of those things and you would change me immediately.

2:06:49.266,2:06:51.431
The question I have for you though, fundamentally,

2:06:51.598,2:06:55.833
and for everybody watching. Mr. Ham, what can you prove?

2:06:56.465,2:07:00.367
What you have done tonight is spent most of the, all of the time

2:07:00.666,2:07:05.857
coming up with explanations about the past. What can you really predict?

2:07:05.857,2:07:09.913
What can you really prove in a conventional scientific,

2:07:09.913,2:07:15.131
or a conventional, "I have an idea that makes a prediction and it comes out the way I see it?"

2:07:15.566,2:07:17.912
This is very troubling to me.

2:07:18.881,2:07:22.736
Moderator: Mr. Nye, a new question. Outside of radiometric methods,

2:07:22.897,2:07:26.866
what scientific evidence supports your view of the age of the Earth?

2:07:27.466,2:07:31.633
Bill Nye: The age of the earth.. Well, the age of stars.

2:07:32.062,2:07:37.164
The... let's see... radiometric evidence is pretty compelling.

2:07:37.533,2:07:45.969
Also, the deposition rates. It was, it was, Lillel, a geologist,

2:07:46.264,2:07:52.347
who realized, my recollection, he came up with the first use of the term "deep time,"

2:07:52.347,2:07:57.184
when people realized that the Earth had to be much, much older.

2:07:57.184,2:08:05.621
In a related story, there was a mystery as to how the Earth could be old enough to allow evolution to have taken place.

2:08:05.621,2:08:09.052
How could the Earth possibly be three billion years old?

2:08:09.052,2:08:12.168
Lord Kelvin did a calculation, if the sun were made of coal, and burning,

2:08:12.168,2:08:15.793
it couldn't be more than 100,000 or so years old.

2:08:15.793,2:08:23.086
But radioactivity was discovered. Radioactivity is why the Earth is still as warm as it is.

2:08:23.086,2:08:28.877
It's why the Earth has been able to sustain its internal heat all these millenia.

2:08:28.877,2:08:34.298
And this discovery, it's something like, this question, without radiometric dating,

2:08:34.298,2:08:35.769
how would you view the age of the Earth,

2:08:35.770,2:08:42.147
to me, it's akin to the expression, "Well, if things were any other way, things would be different."

2:08:42.147,2:08:51.866
This is to say, that's not how the world is. Radiometric dating DOES exist. Neutrons DO become protons.

2:08:52.099,2:08:56.200
And that's our level of understanding today. The universe is accelerating.

2:08:56.200,2:09:02.853
These are all provable facts. That there was a flood 4.000 years ago, is not provable.

2:09:02.853,2:09:09.166
In fact, the evidence for me, at least, as a reasonable man, is overwhelming that it couldn't possibly have happened.

2:09:09.497,2:09:17.598
There's no evidence for it. Furthermore, Mr. Ham, you never quite addressed this issue of the skulls.

2:09:18.426,2:09:27.866
There are many, many steps in what appears to be the creation, or the coming into being of you and me.

2:09:28.535,2:09:32.037
And those steps, are consistent with evolutionary theory.

2:09:32.037,2:09:34.865
Moderator: And that is time. Mr. Ham, your response.

2:09:35.065,2:09:38.326
Ken Ham: By the way, I just want people to understand, too,

2:09:38.326,2:09:40.739
in regard to the age of the Earth being about four and a half billion years,

2:09:40.739,2:09:45.392
no Earth rock was dated to get that date. They dated meteorites,

2:09:45.392,2:09:48.701
and because they assumed meteorites were the same age as the Earth,

2:09:48.701,2:09:51.653
leftover from the formation of the solar system, that's where that comes from.

2:09:51.653,2:09:54.893
People think they dated rocks on the Earth to get the four and a half billion years. That's just not true.

2:09:54.893,2:09:59.011
And the other point that I was making, and I just put this slide back up,

2:09:59.011,2:10:01.559
cause I happened to just have it here. And that is,

2:10:01.559,2:10:05.991
I said at the end of my first rebuttal time, that there are hundreds of physical processes

2:10:05.991,2:10:08.033
that set limits on the age of the Earth. Here's the point.

2:10:08.199,2:10:12.466
Every dating method involves a change with time. And there are hundreds of them.

2:10:12.648,2:10:17.800
And, if you assume what was there to start with, and you assume something about the rate,

2:10:17.802,2:10:22.464
and you know about the rate, you make lots of those assumptions. Every dating method has those assumptions.

2:10:22.464,2:10:26.906
Most of the dating methods, 90% of them, contradict the billions of years.

2:10:26.906,2:10:35.793
There's no absolute age dating method from scientific method because you can't prove scientifically, young or old.

2:10:36.883,2:10:38.283
Moderator: And, here is a new question.

2:10:38.283,2:10:45.613
It starts with you, Mr. Ham. Can you reconcile the change in the rate continents are now drifting,

2:10:45.613,2:10:49.792
versus how quickly they must have traveled at creation, 6,000 years ago?

2:10:49.997,2:10:52.559
Ken Ham: Uh, the rate. Sorry I missed that word.

2:10:52.562,2:10:58.624
Moderator: Can you reconcile the speed at which continents are now drifting, today, to the rate

2:10:58.624,2:11:04.129
they would have had to have travelled 6,000 years ago, to reach where we are now? I think that's the question.

2:11:04.129,2:11:08.440
Ken Ham: Okay, I think I understand the question. Um, actually, this again,

2:11:08.440,2:11:13.501
illustrates exactly what I'm talking about in regard to historical science and observational science.

2:11:13.675,2:11:20.433
We can look at continents today. And we have scientists who have written papers about this on our website.

2:11:20.603,2:11:23.833
I am definitely not an expert in this area and don't claim to be.

2:11:23.987,2:11:29.065
Uh, but there are scientists, even Dr. Andrew Snelling, our Ph.D. geologist,

2:11:29.233,2:11:35.934
has done a lot of research here, too, as well. There are others out there into plate tectonics and continental drift.

2:11:36.133,2:11:41.265
And certainly, we can see movements of plates today. And if you look at those movements,

2:11:41.466,2:11:47.964
and if you assume the way it's moving today, the rate it's moving, that it's always been that way in the past,

2:11:48.134,2:11:53.199
see that's an assumption. That's the problem when it comes to understanding these things.

2:11:53.202,2:11:57.302
You can observe movement, but then to assume that it's always been like that in the past,

2:11:57.303,2:12:03.537
that's historical science. And in fact, we would believe basically in catastrophic plate tectonics,

2:12:03.546,2:12:10.065
that as a result of the flood, at the time of the flood, there was catastrophic breakup of the Earth's surface.

2:12:10.248,2:12:15.264
And what we're seeing now is sort of, if you like, a remnant of that movement.

2:12:15.398,2:12:19.933
And so, we do not deny the movement. We do not deny the plates.

2:12:20.084,2:12:26.701
What we would deny is that you can use what you see today as a basis for just extrapolating into the past.

2:12:26.867,2:12:31.997
It's the same with the flood. You can say layers today only get laid down slowly in places,

2:12:32.199,2:12:35.198
but if there was a global flood, that would have changed all of that.

2:12:35.400,2:12:39.232
Again, it's this emphasis on historical science and observational science.

2:12:39.599,2:12:42.932
And I would encourage people to go to our website at Answers in Genesis

2:12:43.107,2:12:46.465
because we do have a number of papers, in fact, very technical papers.

2:12:46.696,2:12:52.467
Dr. John Baumgardner is one who's written some very extensive work dealing with this very issue.

2:12:52.673,2:12:56.552
On the basis of the Bible, of course, we believe there's one continent to start with,

2:12:56.716,2:13:01.534
cause the waters were gathered here there into one place. So we do believe that the continent has split up.

2:13:01.736,2:13:04.932
But particularly, the flood had a lot to do with that.

2:13:05.099,2:13:07.633
Moderator: And time on that. Mr. Nye, a response.

2:13:07.797,2:13:13.033
Bill Nye: It must have been easier for you to explain this a century ago

2:13:13.907,2:13:17.033
before the existence of tectonic plates was proven.

2:13:18.106,2:13:23.233
If you go into a clock store and there's a bunch of clocks, they're not all gonna say exactly the same thing.

2:13:23.904,2:13:26.589
Do you think that they're all wrong?

2:13:26.589,2:13:30.840
The reason that we acknowledge the rate at which continents are drifting apart,

2:13:30.840,2:13:35.438
one of the reasons, is we see what's called sea floor spreading in the Mid-Atlantic.

2:13:35.438,2:13:39.367
The earth's magnetic field has reversed over the millennia

2:13:40.158,2:13:44.053
and as it does it leaves a signature in the rocks

2:13:44.053,2:13:46.966
as the continental plates drift apart.

2:13:47.198,2:13:52.501
So you can measure how fast the continents were spreading.

2:13:52.501,2:13:54.623
That's how we do it on the outside.

2:13:55.333,2:13:59.470
As I said, I lived in Washington state when Mount St. Helen's exploded.

2:13:59.470,2:14:03.458
That's a result of a continental plate going under another continental plate

2:14:03.458,2:14:07.853
and cracking. And this water-laden rock led to a steam explosion.

2:14:07.853,2:14:10.265
That's how we do it on the outside.

2:14:10.434,2:14:14.254
Moderator: Time. And this is a question for you Mr. Nye. But I guess I could put it to both of you.

2:14:14.254,2:14:17.636
One word answer, please. Favorite color? (laughter)

2:14:18.603,2:14:26.330
Mr. Nye: I will go along with most people and say green. And it's an irony that green plants reflect green light.

2:14:26.499,2:14:28.883
Moderator: Did I not say one word answer? (laughter) I said one word answer.

2:14:28.883,2:14:34.065
Mr. Nye: Most of the light from the sun is green. Yet they reflect it. It's a mystery.

2:14:34.199,2:14:37.474
Mr. Hamm: Well, can I have three words seeing as he had three hundred?

2:14:37.474,2:14:39.459
Moderator: You can have three.

2:14:39.459,2:14:42.233
Mr. Hamm: OK. Observational science. Blue. (laughter)

2:14:42.359,2:14:48.699
Moderator: All right. We're back to you, Mr. Nye.

2:14:49.690,2:14:55.109
How do you balance the theory of evolution with the second law of thermodynamics? And I'd like to add a question here.

2:14:55.109,2:14:57.780
What is the second law of thermodynamics?

2:14:57.780,2:15:04.066
Mr. Nye: Oh, the second law of thermodynamics is fantastic. And I call the words of Eddington who said,

2:15:04.073,2:15:07.517
"If you have a theory that disagrees with Isaac Newton, that's a great theory.

2:15:07.517,2:15:11.073
If you have a theory that disagrees with relativity, wow, you've changed the world. That's great.

2:15:11.073,2:15:17.334
But if your theory disagrees with the second law of thermodynamics, I can offer you no hope. I can't help you."

2:15:18.293,2:15:23.868
The second law of thermodynamics basically is where you lose energy to heat.

2:15:24.694,2:15:33.064
This is why car engines are about 30% efficient. That's it, thermodynamically. That's why you want the hottest explosion

2:15:33.064,2:15:37.800
you can get in the coldest outside environment. You have to have a difference between hot and cold.

2:15:37.800,2:15:45.041
And that difference can be assessed scientifically or mathematically with this word entropy, this disorder of molecules.

2:15:46.011,2:15:50.664
But the fundamental thing that this questioner has missed is the earth is not a closed system.

2:15:51.468,2:15:57.165
So there's energy pouring in here from the sun. If I may, day and night. Ha, Ha.

2:15:57.399,2:16:00.432
'Cause the night, it's pouring in on the other side.

2:16:00.432,2:16:06.689
And so that energy is what drives living things on earth especially for, in our case, plants.

2:16:06.689,2:16:16.403
By the way, if you're here in Kentucky, about a third and maybe a half of the oxygen you breathe is made in the ocean by phytoplankton.

2:16:16.403,2:16:22.131
And they get their energy from the sun. So the second law of thermodynamics is a wonderful thing.

2:16:22.141,2:16:30.998
It has allowed us to have every thing you see in this room because our power generation depends on the

2:16:31.133,2:16:37.197
robust and extremely precise computation of how much energy is in burning fuel,

2:16:38.602,2:16:45.198
whether it's nuclear fuel, or fossil fuel, or some extraordinary fuel to be discovered in the future.

2:16:46.112,2:16:50.864
The second law of thermodynamics will govern any turbine that makes electricity

2:16:50.877,2:16:54.367
that we all depend on; and allowed all these shapes to exist.

2:16:55.754,2:16:56.932
Moderator: Any response, Mr. Hamm?

2:16:57.066,2:17:02.965
Mr. Hamm: Let me just say two things if I can. If a minute goes that fast along.

2:17:04.309,2:17:08.393
One is, you know what, here's a point we need to understand.

2:17:08.393,2:17:13.133
You can have all the energy that you want, but energy or matter will never produce life.

2:17:14.521,2:17:21.690
God imposed information, language system. And that's how we have life.

2:17:21.690,2:17:25.886
Matter by itself could never produce life, no matter what energy you have.

2:17:25.886,2:17:30.080
And, you know, even if you've got a dead stick, you can have all the energy in the world in that dead stick,

2:17:30.080,2:17:34.556
it's going to decay, and it's not going to produce life.

2:17:34.556,2:17:40.384
From a creationist perspective, we certainly agree. I mean, before man sinned, you know,

2:17:40.384,2:17:44.120
there was digestion, and so on, but because of the Fall, now things are running down.

2:17:44.120,2:17:48.233
God doesn't hold everything together as He did back then.

2:17:48.248,2:17:52.675
So now we see, in regard to the second law of thermodynamics, we would say it's sort of,

2:17:52.675,2:17:58.633
in a sense, a bit out-of-control now, compared to what it was originally, which is why we have a running-down universe.

2:17:58.814,2:18:01.916
Moderator: And that's time. A new question for you, Mr. Ham.

2:18:01.918,2:18:08.985
Hypothetically, if evidence existed that caused you to have to admit that the Earth was older than 10,000 years,

2:18:08.985,2:18:15.440
and creation did not occur over six days, would you still believe in God and the historical Jesus of Nazareth

2:18:15.440,2:18:17.562
and that Jesus was the Son of God?

2:18:17.698,2:18:26.873
Ken Ham: Well, I've been emphasizing all night. You cannot ever prove using, you know,

2:18:26.873,2:18:30.032
the scientific method in the present, you can't prove the age of the Earth.

2:18:30.032,2:18:33.500
So you can never prove it's old. So there is no hypothetical. (Mr. Nye quietly chuckles.)

2:18:33.699,2:18:40.333
Because you can't do that. Now, we can certainly use methods in the present and making assumptions,

2:18:40.553,2:18:45.927
I mean, creationists use methods that change over time. As I said, there's hundreds of

2:18:45.927,2:18:50.353
physical processes that you can use, but they set limits on the age of the universe,

2:18:50.353,2:18:55.833
but you can't ultimately prove the age of the Earth, not using the scientific method.

2:18:55.933,2:18:58.509
You can't ultimately prove the age of the universe.

2:18:58.509,2:19:04.557
Now, you can look at methods, and you can see that there are many methods that contradict billions of years,

2:19:04.557,2:19:07.496
many methods that seem to support thousands of years.

2:19:07.633,2:19:12.567
As Dr. Faulkner said in the little video clip I showed, there is nothing in observational astronomy

2:19:12.764,2:19:18.668
that contradicts a young universe. Now, I've said to you before, and I admit again,

2:19:18.833,2:19:23.400
that the reason I believe in a young universe is because of the Bible's account of origins.

2:19:23.618,2:19:29.600
I believe that God, who has always been there, the infinite creator God, revealed in His Word what He did for us.

2:19:29.744,2:19:32.499
And, when we add up those dates, we get thousands of years.

2:19:32.683,2:19:35.898
But there's nothing in observational science that contradicts that.

2:19:36.924,2:19:42.861
As far as the age of the Earth, the age of the universe, even when it comes to the fossil record.

2:19:42.861,2:19:46.859
That's why I really challenge Christians, if you're gonna believe in millions of years for the fossil record,

2:19:46.867,2:19:53.432
you've got a problem with the Bible. And that is, then, that you've got to have death and disease and suffering before sin.

2:19:53.599,2:20:01.795
So, there is no hypothetical in regard to that. You can't prove scientifically, the age of the Earth or the universe, bottom line.

2:20:01.912,2:20:03.468
Moderator: Mr. Nye.

2:20:03.468,2:20:05.690
Mr. Nye: Well, of course this is where we disagree.

2:20:05.690,2:20:11.589
You can prove the age of the earth with great robustness by observing the universe around us.

2:20:11.589,2:20:17.096
And I get the feeling, Mr. Hamm, that you want us to take your word for it.

2:20:17.096,2:20:22.901
This is to say your interpretation of a book written thousands of years ago,

2:20:22.901,2:20:31.064
as translated into American English, is more compelling for you than everything that I can observe in the world around me.

2:20:31.064,2:20:34.465
This is where you and I, I think, are not going to see eye to eye.

2:20:34.465,2:20:40.964
You said you asserted that life cannot come from something that's not alive. Are you sure?

2:20:40.964,2:20:46.363
Are you sure enough to say that we should not continue to look for signs of water and life on Mars?

2:20:46.363,2:20:49.564
That that's a waste. You're sure enough to claim that.

2:20:51.624,2:20:55.333
That is an extraordinary claim that we want to investigate.

2:20:55.333,2:21:06.833
Once again, what is it you can predict? What do you provide us that can tell us something about the future; not just about your vision of the past?

2:21:06.833,2:21:08.672
Moderator: A new question, Mr. Nye.

2:21:08.672,2:21:11.098
Is there room for God in science?

2:21:11.299,2:21:20.032
Mr. Nye: Well, we remind us. There are billions of people around the world who are religious and who accept science

2:21:20.032,2:21:24.496
and embrace it, and especially all the technology that it brings us.

2:21:24.496,2:21:29.864
Is there anyone here who doesn't have a mobile phone that has a camera?

2:21:29.864,2:21:34.196
Is there anyone here whose family members have not benefited from modern medicine?

2:21:34.196,2:21:43.031
Is there anyone here who doesn't use e-mail? Is there anybody here who doesn't eat?

2:21:43.031,2:21:48.629
Because we use information sent from satellites in space to plant seeds on our farms.

2:21:48.629,2:21:54.498
That's how we're able to feed 7.1 billion people where we used to be barely able to feed a billion.

2:21:54.498,2:22:01.701
So that's what I see. That's what we have used science for the process.

2:22:01.701,2:22:06.510
Science for me is two things. It's the body of knowledge--the atomic number of rubidium.

2:22:06.510,2:22:10.894
And it's the process--the means by which we make these discoveries.

2:22:10.897,2:22:18.585
So for me that's not really that connected with your belief in a spiritual being or a higher power.

2:22:18.585,2:22:28.632
If you reconcile those two. Scientists, the head of the National Institutes of Health is a devout Christian.

2:22:28.632,2:22:32.900
There are billions of people in the world who are devoutly religious.

2:22:32.900,2:22:36.261
They have to be compatible because those same people embrace science.

2:22:36.261,2:22:41.133
The exception is you, Mr. Ham. That's the problem for me.

2:22:41.133,2:22:50.299
You want us to take your word for what's written in this ancient text to be more compelling than what we see around us.

2:22:50.299,2:22:55.632
The evidence for a higher power and spirituality is, for me, separate.

2:22:55.632,2:23:01.300
I encourage you to take the next minute and address this problem of the fossils, this problem of the ice layers,

2:23:01.300,2:23:06.567
this problem of the ancient trees, this problem of the ark. I mean really address it.

2:23:06.567,2:23:13.865
And so then we could move forward. But right now, I see no incompatibility between religions and science.

2:23:13.865,2:23:15.599
Moderator: That's time. Mr. Ham, response?

2:23:15.599,2:23:18.633
Mr. Ham: Yeah, I actually want to take a minute to address the question.

2:23:18.633,2:23:23.300
Let me just say this, my answer would be God is necessary for science.

2:23:23.300,2:23:27.333
In fact, you know you talked about cell phones. Yeah, I have a cell phone. I love technology.

2:23:27.333,2:23:32.896
We love technology here at Answers in Genesis. And, I have e-mail, probably had millions of them

2:23:32.896,2:23:38.600
while I've been speaking up here. And, satellites and what you said about the information we get,

2:23:38.600,2:23:43.331
I agree with all that. See, they're the things that can be done in the present.

2:23:43.331,2:23:51.243
And that's just like I showed you. Dr. Stuart Burgess who invented that gear set for the satellite, creationists can be great scientists.

2:23:51.257,2:23:55.666
But, see, I say God is necessary because you have to assume the laws of logic. You have to assume the laws of nature.

2:23:55.666,2:24:00.002
You have to assume the uniformity in nature. And that is the question I had for you.

2:24:00.002,2:24:04.733
Where does that come from if the universe is here by natural processes.

2:24:04.733,2:24:09.496
And, Christianity and science, the Bible and science, go hand in hand.

2:24:09.496,2:24:14.031
We love science. But again, you've got to understand. Inventing things, that's very different

2:24:14.031,2:24:17.334
than talking about our origins. Two very different things.

2:24:17.334,2:24:22.031
Moderator: Mr. Ham, a new question. Do you believe the entire Bible is to be taken literally?

2:24:22.031,2:24:26.330
For example, should people who touch pigs' skin, I think it says here, be stoned?

2:24:26.330,2:24:30.231
Can men marry multiple women?

2:24:30.231,2:24:36.132
Mr. Ham: Do I believe the entire Bible should be taken literally? Remember in my opening address

2:24:36.132,2:24:41.330
I said we have to define our terms. So, when people ask that question, say literally, I have to know

2:24:41.330,2:24:44.733
what that person meant by literally. Now, I would say this.

2:24:44.733,2:24:51.197
If you say "naturally" and that's what you mean by "literally", I would say, yes, I take the Bible "naturally".

2:24:51.197,2:24:55.066
What do I mean by that? Well, if it's history, as Genesis is,

2:24:55.066,2:24:57.965
it's written as typical historical narrative, you take it as history.

2:24:57.965,2:25:03.433
If it's poetry, as we find in the Psalms, then you take it as poetry.

2:25:03.433,2:25:09.766
It doesn't mean it doesn't teach truth, but it's not a cosmological account in the sense that Genesis is.

2:25:09.766,2:25:17.065
There's prophecy in the Bible and there's literature in the Bible concerning future events and so on.

2:25:17.065,2:25:22.600
So, if you take it as written, naturally, according to typal literature, and you let it speak to you

2:25:22.600,2:25:27.833
in that way, that's how I take the Bible. It's God's revelation to man. He used different people.

2:25:27.833,2:25:32.066
The Bible says that all scripture's inspired by God. So God moved people by his spirit

2:25:32.066,2:25:36.664
to write his words. And, also, there's a lot of misunderstanding in regard to scripture

2:25:36.664,2:25:42.066
and in regard to the Israelites. I mean we have laws in our civil government here in America

2:25:42.066,2:25:45.469
that the government sets. Well there were certain laws for Israel. And, you know, some people

2:25:45.469,2:25:49.068
take all that out of context. And then they try to impose it on us today as Christians

2:25:49.068,2:25:53.567
and say, you should be obeying those laws. It's a misunderstanding of the Old Testament.

2:25:53.567,2:25:56.632
It's a misunderstanding of the New Testament.

2:25:56.632,2:26:01.833
And, you know, again, it's important to take the Bible as a whole. Interpreting scripture as scripture.

2:26:01.833,2:26:06.500
If it really is the word of God, there's not going to be any contradiction. Which there's not.

2:26:06.500,2:26:10.498
And by the way, when men were married to multiple women, there were lots of problems.

2:26:10.498,2:26:15.096
(Laughter) ...and the Bible condemns that for what it is, and the Bible is very clear.

2:26:15.096,2:26:19.167
You know the Bible is a real book. There were people who did things that were not in accord with scripture,

2:26:19.167,2:26:23.198
and it records this for us. It helps you understand it's a real book. But marriage was one man for

2:26:23.198,2:26:27.599
one woman. Jesus reiterated that in Matthew 19, as I had in my talk.

2:26:27.599,2:26:31.304
And so those that did marry multiple women were wrong.

2:26:31.304,2:26:34.101
Moderator: Time there. Mr. Nye, a response?

2:26:34.101,2:26:37.266
Mr. Nye: So it sounds to me, just listening to you over the last two minutes,

2:26:37.266,2:26:42.134
that there's certain parts of this document of the Bible that you embrace literally

2:26:42.134,2:26:46.829
and other parts you consider poetry. So it sounds to me, in those last two minutes,

2:26:46.829,2:26:59.799
like you're going to take what you like, interpret literally, and other passages you're gonna interpret as poetic or descriptions of human events.

2:26:59.799,2:27:08.999
All that aside, I'll just say scientifically, or as a reasonable man, it doesn't seem possible that

2:27:08.999,2:27:15.600
all these things that contradict your literal interpretation of those first few passages,

2:27:15.600,2:27:22.333
all those things that contradict that, I find unsettling, when you want me to embrace the rest of it

2:27:22.333,2:27:27.432
as literal. Now, I, as I say, am not a theologian. But we started this debate,

2:27:27.432,2:27:33.400
Is Ken Ham's creation model viable? Does it hold water? Can it fly? Does it describe anything?

2:27:33.400,2:27:36.300
And I'm still looking for an answer.

2:27:36.300,2:27:38.696
Moderator: And time on that. Mr. Nye, here's a new question.

2:27:38.696,2:27:44.593
I believe this was miswritten here because they've repeated a word. But I think I know what they were

2:27:44.593,2:27:54.353
trying to ask. Have you ever believed that evolution was accomplished through way of a higher power?

2:27:54.365,2:27:58.298
I think that's what they're trying to ask here. This is the intelligent design question, I think.

2:27:58.298,2:28:03.685
If so, why or why not? Why could not the evolutionary process be accomplished in this way?

2:28:03.685,2:28:08.706
Mr. Nye: I think you may have changed the question just a little but, no, it's all good.

2:28:08.706,2:28:13.399
Moderator: The word for word question is, have you ever believed that evolution partook through way of evolution?

2:28:13.399,2:28:18.567
(talking at the same time) Mr. Nye: Let me introduce these ideas for Mr. Ham to comment.

2:28:18.567,2:28:27.733
The idea that there's a higher power that has driven the course of the events in the universe

2:28:27.733,2:28:35.031
and our own existence, is one that you can not prove or disprove. And this gets into this expression, "agnostic."

2:28:35.031,2:28:38.966
You can't know. I'll grant you that.

2:28:38.966,2:28:45.232
When it comes to intelligent design, which is, if I understand your interpretation of the question,

2:28:45.232,2:28:52.666
intelligent design has a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of nature.

2:28:52.666,2:28:58.200
This is to say, the old expression is if you were to find a watch in the field,

2:28:58.200,2:29:03.800
and you pick it up, you would realize that it was created by somebody who was thinking ahead,

2:29:03.800,2:29:08.666
somebody with an organization chart, somebody at the top. And you'd order screws from screw manufacturers

2:29:08.666,2:29:12.567
and springs from spring manufacturers and glass crystals from crystal manufacturers.

2:29:12.567,2:29:15.462
But that's not how nature works.

2:29:15.462,2:29:22.163
This is the fundamental insight in the explanation for living things that is provided by evolution.

2:29:22.163,2:29:28.302
Evolution is a process that adds complexity through natural selection, this is to say,

2:29:28.302,2:29:33.198
nature has its mediocre designs eaten by its good designs.

2:29:33.198,2:29:41.566
And so, the perception that there is a designer that created all this, is not necessarily true,

2:29:41.566,2:29:48.167
because we have an explanation that is far more compelling and provides predictions, and things are repeatable.

2:29:48.167,2:29:53.864
I'm sure, Mr. Ham here, at the facility, you have an organization chart.

2:29:53.864,2:29:58.464
I imagine you're at the top, and it's a top-down structure.

2:29:58.464,2:30:03.333
Nature is not that way. Nature is bottom-up.

2:30:03.333,2:30:10.233
This is the discovery. Things merge up. Whatever makes it, keeps going. Whatever doesn't make it, falls away.

2:30:10.233,2:30:17.199
And this is compelling and wonderful and fills me with joy and is inconsistent with a top-down view.

2:30:17.199,2:30:18.933
Moderator: And that's time. Mr. Ham.

2:30:18.933,2:30:27.733
Ken Ham: What Bill Nye needs to do for me is to show me an example of something, some new function

2:30:27.733,2:30:32.533
that arose that was not previously possible from the genetic information that was there.

2:30:32.533,2:30:36.368
And I would claim, and challenge you, that there is no such example that you can give.

2:30:36.368,2:30:42.821
That's why I brought up the example in my presentation of Lensky's experiments in regard to e coli.

2:30:42.821,2:30:47.632
And there were some that seemed to develop the ability to exist on citrate,

2:30:47.632,2:30:51.197
but as Dr. Fabich said, from looking at his research,

2:30:51.197,2:30:53.400
he's found that that information was already there.

2:30:53.400,2:31:01.262
It's just a gene that switched on and off. And so, there is no example, because information that's there,

2:31:01.262,2:31:09.101
and the genetic information of different animals, plants and so on, there's no new function that can be added.

2:31:09.101,2:31:12.101
Certainly, great variation within a kind, and that's what we look at.

2:31:12.101,2:31:16.264
But you'd have to show an example of brand-new function that never previously was possible.

2:31:16.264,2:31:20.465
There is no such example that you can give anywhere in the world.

2:31:20.465,2:31:24.898
Moderator: Uh, fresh question here. Mr. Ham, name one institution, business, or organization,

2:31:24.898,2:31:28.099
other than a church, amusement park, or the Creation Museum

2:31:28.099,2:31:31.950
that is using any aspect of creationism to produce its product.

2:31:31.950,2:31:40.167
Ken Ham: Any scientist out there, Christian or non-Christian, that is involved in

2:31:40.167,2:31:46.213
inventing things, involved in scientific method, is using creation.

2:31:46.433,2:31:50.565
They are, because they are borrowing from a Christian worldview.

2:31:50.565,2:31:52.866
They are using the laws of logic. I keep emphasizing that.

2:31:52.866,2:31:58.634
I want Bill to tell me, in a view of the universe, as a result of natural processes,

2:31:58.634,2:32:03.799
explain where the laws of logic came from. Why should we trust the laws of nature?

2:32:03.799,2:32:07.365
I mean, are they going to be the same tomorrow as they were yesterday?

2:32:07.365,2:32:14.577
In fact, some of the greatest scientists that ever lived: Isaac Newton, James Clerk Maxwell, Michael Faraday were creationists.

2:32:14.577,2:32:18.154
And as one of them said, you know, he's thinking God's thoughts after Him.

2:32:18.266,2:32:24.268
And that's really, modern science came out of that thinking, that we can do experiments today,

2:32:24.268,2:32:29.033
and we can do the same tomorrow. And we can trust the laws of logic. We can trust the laws of nature.

2:32:29.033,2:32:34.432
And if we don't teach our children correctly about this, they're NOT going to be innovative.

2:32:34.432,2:32:42.300
And they're not going to be able to come up with inventions to advance in our culture.

2:32:42.300,2:32:47.830
And so, I think the person was trying to get out that, see, you know,

2:32:47.830,2:32:52.300
there are lots of secularists out there doing work. And they don't believe in creation.

2:32:52.300,2:32:57.600
And they come up with great inventions, yeah. But my point is, they are borrowing from the Christian worldview to do so.

2:32:57.600,2:33:01.899
And as you saw from the video quotes I gave, people like Andrew Fabich

2:33:01.899,2:33:04.799
and also Dr. Faulkner have published in the secular journals.

2:33:04.799,2:33:07.798
There's lots of creationists out there who publish.

2:33:07.798,2:33:15.200
People mightn't know that they're creationists because the topic doesn't specifically pertain to creation vs. evolution.

2:33:15.200,2:33:17.932
But there's lots of them out there. In fact, go to our website.

2:33:17.932,2:33:21.399
There's a whole list there of scientists who are creationists,

2:33:21.399,2:33:26.530
who are out there doing great work in this world and helping to advance technology.

2:33:26.530,2:33:28.700
Moderator: Mr. Nye

2:33:28.700,2:33:35.000
Bill Nye: There's a reason that I don't accept your Ken Ham model of creation.

2:33:35.000,2:33:39.733
Is that it has no predictive quality as you had touched on,

2:33:39.733,2:33:42.064
and something that I've always found troubling.

2:33:42.064,2:33:47.767
It sounds as though and next time around you can correct me.

2:33:47.767,2:33:56.067
It sounds as though you believe your world view, which is a literal interpretation of most parts of the Bible, is correct.

2:33:56.067,2:34:00.333
Well, what became of all those people who never heard of it?

2:34:00.333,2:34:04.567
Never heard of you? What became of all those people in Asia?

2:34:04.567,2:34:08.634
What became of all those first nations people in North America?

2:34:08.634,2:34:14.266
Were they condemned and doomed? I mean, I don't know how much time you've spent talking to strangers,

2:34:14.266,2:34:23.357
but they're not sanguine about that. To have you tell them that they are inherently lost or misguided.

2:34:23.357,2:34:27.927
It's very troubling. And you say there are no examples in nature.

2:34:27.931,2:34:32.934
There are countless examples of how the process of science makes predictions.

2:34:32.934,2:34:37.533
Moderator: Mr. Nye, since evolution teaches that man is evolving and growing smarter over time,

2:34:37.533,2:34:42.780
how can you explain the numerous evidences of man's high intelligence in the past?

2:34:42.780,2:34:47.730
Bill Nye: Hang on, there's no evidence that man or humans are getting smarter.

2:34:47.730,2:34:56.456
No, especially if you ever met my old boss. Heh, heh, heh. (laughter)

2:34:56.456,2:35:05.633
No, it's that what happens in evolution. And there's, it's a British word that was used in the middle 1800's.

2:35:05.633,2:35:13.764
It's survival of the fittest. And this usage, it doesn't mean the most push-ups or the highest scores on standardized tests.

2:35:13.764,2:35:22.328
It means that those that "fit in" the best. Our intellect, such as it is, has enabled us to dominate the world.

2:35:22.328,2:35:26.091
I mean, the evidence of humans is everywhere.

2:35:26.092,2:35:30.375
James Cameron just made another trip to the bottom of the ocean, in the deepest part of the ocean,

2:35:30.375,2:35:35.004
the first time since 1960. And when they made the first trip, they found a beer can.

2:35:35.004,2:35:43.003
Humans are everywhere. And so, it is our capacity to reason that has taken us to where we are now.

2:35:43.003,2:35:49.867
If a germ shows up, as it did, for example, in World War I, where more people were killed by the flu

2:35:49.867,2:35:52.247
than were killed by the combatants in World War I.

2:35:52.247,2:35:58.764
That is a troubling and remarkable fact. If the right germ shows up, we'll be taken out.

2:35:58.767,2:36:04.240
We'll be eliminated. Being smarter is not a necessary consequence of evolution.

2:36:04.240,2:36:10.667
So far, it seems to be the way things are going because of the remarkable advantage it gives to us.

2:36:10.667,2:36:15.030
We can control our environment and even change it, as we are doing today, apparently by accident.

2:36:15.030,2:36:21.662
So, everybody, just take a little while and grasp this fundamental idea.

2:36:21.664,2:36:28.827
It's how you "fit in" with nature around you. So, as the world changed, as it did, for example, the ancient dinosaurs,

2:36:28.827,2:36:34.832
they were "taken out" by a worldwide fireball, apparently caused by an impacter.

2:36:34.832,2:36:41.567
That's the best theory we have. And we are the result of people, of organisms that lived through that catastrophe.

2:36:41.567,2:36:46.930
It's not necessarily smarter. It's how you "fit in" with your environment.

2:36:46.930,2:36:48.938
Moderator: Mr. Ham, a response?

2:36:48.938,2:36:53.933
Ken Ham: I remember at university, one of my professors was very excited to give us some evidence for evolution.

2:36:53.933,2:36:59.698
He said, "Look at this. Here's an example. These fish have evolved the ability not to see."

2:36:59.698,2:37:02.506
And, he was going to give an example of blind cave fish.

2:37:02.506,2:37:08.680
And he said, "See, in this cave, they're evolving, because now the ones that are living there, their ancestors had eyes.

2:37:08.680,2:37:12.673
Now these ones are blind." And I remember, I was talking to my professor, "But wait a minute!

2:37:12.673,2:37:17.718
Now they can't do something that they could do before." Yeah, they might have an advantage in this sense.

2:37:17.718,2:37:22.300
In a situation that's dark like that, those with eyes might have got diseases and died out.

2:37:22.300,2:37:25.435
Those that had mutations for no eyes are the ones that survived.

2:37:25.435,2:37:28.866
It's not survival of the fittest. It's survival of those who survive.

2:37:28.866,2:37:33.767
And it's survival of those that have the information in their circumstance to survive,

2:37:33.767,2:37:37.764
but you're not getting new information. You're not getting new function.

2:37:37.764,2:37:44.033
There's no example of that at all. So, we need to correctly understand these things.

2:37:44.033,2:37:48.617
Moderator: Alright. Um, we're down to our final question here, which I'll give to both of you.

2:37:48.617,2:37:51.999
And in the interest of fairness here, because it is a question to the both of you,

2:37:51.999,2:37:55.072
let's give each man two minutes on this if we can, please.

2:37:55.072,2:37:59.883
And also, in the interest of you having started first, Mr. Ham, I will have you start first here.

2:37:59.883,2:38:02.299
You'll have the first word. Mr. Nye will have the last word.

2:38:02.299,2:38:10.127
The question is: what is the one thing, more than anything else, upon which you base your belief?

2:38:10.127,2:38:14.332
Mr. Ham: What is the one thing upon anything else which I base my belief?

2:38:14.332,2:38:21.466
Well, again, to summarize the things that I've been saying, there is a book called the Bible.

2:38:21.466,2:38:24.590
It's a very unique book. It's very different to any other book out there.

2:38:24.590,2:38:29.596
In fact, I don't know of any other religion that has a book that starts off by

2:38:29.596,2:38:33.998
telling you that there's an infinite God, and talks about the origin of the universe,

2:38:33.998,2:38:36.598
and the origin of matter, and the origin of light, and the origin of darkness,

2:38:36.598,2:38:41.591
and the origin of day and night, and the origin of the earth, and the origin of dry land,

2:38:41.591,2:38:45.400
and the origin of plants, and the origin of the sun, moon and stars, the origin of sea creatures,

2:38:45.400,2:38:48.831
the origin of flying creatures, the origin of land creatures, the origin of man,

2:38:48.831,2:38:52.699
the origin of woman, the origin of death, the origin of sin, the origin of marriage,

2:38:52.699,2:38:58.196
the origin of different languages, the origin of clothing, the origin of nations,

2:38:58.196,2:39:01.000
I mean it's a very, very specific book.

2:39:01.000,2:39:06.508
And it gives us an account of a global flood and the history and the tower of Babel,

2:39:06.508,2:39:10.534
and if that history is true, then what about the rest of the book?

2:39:10.534,2:39:15.597
Well, that history also says man is a sinner and it says that man is separated from God.

2:39:15.597,2:39:20.756
And it gives us a message, that we call the gospel, the message of salvation, that God's

2:39:20.756,2:39:23.832
son stepped in history to die on the cross, to be raised from the dead,

2:39:23.832,2:39:25.499
and offers a free gift of salvation.

2:39:25.499,2:39:29.266
Because the history is true, that's why the message based on history is true.

2:39:29.266,2:39:33.729
I actually went through some predictions and listed others, and there's a lot more that you can look at,

2:39:33.729,2:39:37.067
and you can go and test it for yourself. If this book really is true,

2:39:37.067,2:39:41.667
it is so specific, it should explain the world, it should make sense of what we see.

2:39:41.667,2:39:43.667
The flood. Yeah, we have fossils all over the world.

2:39:43.667,2:39:46.431
The tower of Babel, yeah, different people groups, different languages,

2:39:46.431,2:39:50.634
they have flood legends very similar to the Bible. Creation legends similar to the Bible.

2:39:50.634,2:39:53.600
There's so much you can look at, and prophesy and so on.

2:39:53.600,2:39:57.252
Most of all, as I said to you, the Bible says, if you come to God, believing that he is,

2:39:57.252,2:40:00.053
he'll reveal himself to you. You will know. If you search after truth,

2:40:00.053,2:40:03.793
you really want God to show you, as you would search after silver and gold,

2:40:03.793,2:40:07.467
he will show you. He will reveal himself to you.

2:40:07.467,2:40:08.913
Moderator: Mr. Nye?

2:40:08.913,2:40:10.526
Mr. Nye: Would you repeat the question?

2:40:10.526,2:40:17.618
Moderator: The question is: What is the one thing, more than anything else, upon which you base your belief?

2:40:17.618,2:40:21.046
Mr. Nye: As my old professor Carl Sagan said so often,

2:40:21.046,2:40:30.104
when you're in love, you want to tell the world. And I base my beliefs on the information

2:40:30.104,2:40:33.763
and the process that we call science.

2:40:33.763,2:40:39.369
It fills me with joy to make discoveries every day of things I'd never seen before.

2:40:39.369,2:40:44.700
It fills me with joy to know that we can pursue these answers.

2:40:44.700,2:40:51.253
It is a wonderful and astonishing thing to me, that we are, you and I,

2:40:51.253,2:40:58.302
are somehow, at least one of the ways that the universe knows itself.

2:40:58.302,2:41:03.234
You and I are a product of the universe. It's astonishing. I admit, I see your faces.

2:41:03.234,2:41:08.867
That we have come to be because of the universe's existence.

2:41:08.867,2:41:13.733
And we are driven to pursue that. To find out where we came from.

2:41:13.733,2:41:16.233
And the second question we all want to know:

2:41:16.233,2:41:22.051
Are we alone? Are we alone in the universe? And these questions are deep within us,

2:41:22.051,2:41:30.714
and they drive us. So the process of science, the way we know nature is the most compelling thing to me.

2:41:30.714,2:41:37.000
And I just want to close by reminding everybody what's at stake here.

2:41:37.000,2:41:44.334
If we abandon all that we've learned, our ancestors, what they've learned about nature and our place in it,

2:41:44.334,2:41:48.231
if we abandon the process by which we know it,

2:41:48.231,2:41:52.866
if we eschew, if we let go of everything that people have learned before us,

2:41:52.866,2:41:57.700
if we stop driving forward, stop looking for the next answer to the next question,

2:41:57.700,2:42:03.764
we, in the United States, will be outcompeted by other countries, other economies.

2:42:03.764,2:42:08.134
Now, that would be okay, I guess, but I was born here. I'm a patriot.

2:42:08.134,2:42:12.719
So we have to embrace science education. To the voters and taxpayers that are watching,

2:42:12.719,2:42:19.956
please keep that in mind. We have to keep science education in science and science classes. Thank you.

2:42:19.956,2:42:26.300
Moderator: One tiny bit of important housekeeping for everyone here, the county is now under a level two snow emergency.

2:42:26.300,2:42:31.332
Drive home carefully. You'll have a lot to talk about, but drive carefully.

2:42:31.332,2:42:37.767
This debate will be archived at debatelive.org. That's debatelive.org, one word.

2:42:37.767,2:42:43.436
It will be found at that site for several days. You can encourage friends and family to watch and take it over.

2:42:43.436,2:42:54.160
Thanks so much to Mr. Nye and to Mr. Ham (Loud applause) for an excellent discussion.

2:42:54.160,2:42:58.997
I'm Tom Foreman, thank you, good night from Petersburg, Kentucky and the Creation Museum.

2:42:58.997,2:43:15.531
(applause)

2:43:15.531,2:43:50.667
(orchestral music)

2:43:50.667,2:44:18.294
ORDER TONIGHT! Here or online

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