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RC3 preroll music
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Herald: Welcome back on the channel, of
Chaos zone TV. Now we have an English
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speaking contribution. And for that, I
welcome pandemonium, who is a historian
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and documentary film maker, and therefore
we will also not have a normal talk, but
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we will see the documentary information.
What are they looking at? A documentary on
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privacy. And afterwards, we can all talk
about the film, so feel free to post your
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questions and we can discuss them. Let's
enjoy the film.
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film started
[Filler please remove in amara]
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---Because the great promise of the
internet is freedom. Freedom of
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expression, freedom of organization,
freedom of assembly. These are really seen
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as underpinning rights of what we see as
democratic values.
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---Just because you have safety does not
mean that you cannot have freedom. Just
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because you have freedom does not mean you
cannot have safety.
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---Why is the reaction to doubt it rather
than to assume that it's true and act
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accordingly?
---We need to be able to break those laws
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that are unjust.
---Privacy is an essence, becoming a de
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facto crime. That is somehow you are
hiding something.
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---So just to be sure let's have no
privacy.
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"Information, what are they looking at? A
film by Theresia Reinhold.
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"The Internet is [...] everywhere, but we
only see it in the glimpses. The internet
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is like the wholy ghost: it makes itself
knowable to us by taking possession of the
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pixels on our screens to manifest sites
and apps and email, but its essence is
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always elsewhere.
---Before the Internet came about,
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communication was generally one editor to
many, many readers. But now it's peer to
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peer. So, you know, at a touch of a button
people have an opportunity to reach
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millions of people. That's revolutionizing
the way we communicate.
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---One of the things that Facebook and to
a lesser degree Twitter allowed people to
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do is be able to see that they weren't
alone. And it was able to create a
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critical mass. And I think that's a very
important role that social media took on.
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It was able to show people a very easy way
in people's Facebook feeds: "Oh, wow. Look
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at Tahrir Square, there's people out there
in Bahrain, in Pearl Square." What people
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could feel before walking out their door
into real life action, that they could see
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that they are not isolated in their desire
for some sort of change.
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---The great promise of the internet is
freedom where the minds without fear and
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the head is held high. And the knowledge
is free. Because the promise was: This
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will be the great equalizer.
---Before the social web, before the Web
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2.0, anything you were doing was kind of
anonymous. By the very concept of
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anonymity you were able to discuss things
that would probably be not according to
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dominance themes or the dominant trends of
values of your own society.
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---I don't find this discussion about how
to deal with the assertion "I have nothing
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to hide" boring, even after many years.
Because this sentence is very short, but
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very perfidious. The speaker, who hurls
the sentence "I have nothing to hide" at
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me, not only says something about
themselves, but also something about me.
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Because this sentence "I have nothing to
hide" also has the unspoken component of
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"You don't either, do you?" In this
respect, I think this sentence lacks
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solidarity, because at the same time one
does not want to work to ensure that the
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other, who perhaps has something to hide,
is able to do so.
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---One of the things about privacy is that
it's not always about you. It's about the
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people in our networks. And so, for
example, I have a lot of friends who are
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from Syria. People that I have met in
other places in the world, not necessary
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refugees. People who lived abroad for a
while, but those people are at risk all
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the time. Both in their home country and
often in their host countries as well. And
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so, I might say that I have nothing to
hide. I might say that there's no reason
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that I need to keep myself safe. But if
you've got any more like that in a
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network, any activists, any people from
countries like that, it's thinking about
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privacy and thinking about security means
thinking about keeping those people safe,
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too.
Privacy is important, because if think of
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the alternative, if everything is public,
if the norm is public, then anything that
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you want to keep to yourself has an
association or guild attached. And that
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should not be the world that we create.
That's a chilling effect. It's a chilling
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effect on our freedoms. It's a chilling
effect on democracy.
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"No one shall be subjected to arbitrary
interference with this privacy, family,
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home or correspondence, for the attacks
upon his honor and reputation. Everyone
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has the right to the protection of the law
against such interference or attacks.
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---To me, human rights are something which
has been put to place to guarantee the
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freedoms of every single person in the
world. They're supposed to be universal,
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indivisible. Having in the eyes of this
systems.
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---They're collecting data and metadata
about hundreds of thousands, millions of
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people. And some of that data will never
be looked at. That's a fact. We know that.
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But at the same time, assuming that just
because you're not involved in activism or
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you're not well known that you're not
going to be a target at some point, I
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think, that is what can be really harmful
to us. Right now you may not be under any
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threat at all, but your friends might be,
your family might be or you might be in
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the future. And so that's why we need to
think about it this way, not because we're
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going to be snatched out of our homes in
the middle of the night now. But because
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this data and this metadata lasts for a
long time.
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---My observation is what we are
experiencing right now is that the private
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space that should be and remain private in
the digital world is slowly beginning to
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erode. It is becoming permeable, and not
just factual. Factually, of course, but
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not only factually, but also in
perception. I imagine the digital world as
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a panoptical. This is the ring-shaped
building designed by Jeremy Benthem. In
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the ring the prisoners are accommodated in
the individual cell, and in the middle
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there is a watchtower. And there is a
guard sitting there. And this guard, who
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can observe and supervise the prisoners in
the cells around him all the time. The
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trick is that the prisoners cannot know if
they are being watched. They only see the
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tower, but they don't see the warden. But
they know very well that they could be
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watched permanently at any time. And this
fact exerts a changing decisive effect.
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---I think surveillance is a technology of
governmentality. It's a bio political
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technology. It's there to control and
manage populations. It's really propelled
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by state power and the power of entities
that are glued in that cohere around the
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state, right? So it is there as a form of
population management and control. So you
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have to convince people that it's in their
interest and its like: Every man for
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himself and everyone is out to get
everyone.
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relaying music is plays
[Filler please remove in amara]
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---I take my cue from a former general
counsel of the NSA, Suart Baker, who said
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on this question: Meta-Data absolutely
tells you everything about somebodies
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life. If you have enough Meta-Data you
don't really need content. It is sort of
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embarrassing, how predictable we are as
human beings.
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---So let's say that you make a phone one
night, you call up a suicide hotline, for
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example, you're feeling down, you call
that hotline and then a few hours later
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maybe you call a friend. A few hours later
you call a doctor, you send an email and
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so on so forth. Now, the contents of that
of those calls and those e-mails are not
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necessarily collected. What's being
collected is the time of the call and the
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place that you called. And so sometimes in
events like that, those different pieces
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of metadata can be linked together to
profile someone.
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---David's description of what you can do
with metadata, and quoting a mutual friend
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Stewart Baker, is absolutely correct. We
kill people based on Meta-Data. But that
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is not what we do with this Meta-Data.
Mayor Denett: Thankfully. Wow, I was
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working up a sweat there Mayor laughs
for a second.
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---You know, the impetus for governments
for conducting this kind of surveillance
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is often at least in rhetoric go to after
terrorists. And obviously, we don't want
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terrorism. And so that justification
resonates with most of the public. But I
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think that there's a couple problems with
it. The first is that they haven't
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demonstrated to us that surveillance
actually works in stopping terrorist
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attacks. We haven't seen it work yet. It
didn't work in Paris. It didn't work in
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Boston. t didn't work elsewhere. So that's
one part of it. But then I think the other
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part of it is that we spend billions of
dollars on surveillance and on war, but
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spend very little money on addressing the
root causes of terrorism.
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---I consider this debate security versus
freedom to be a bugaboo. Because these
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values are not mutually exclusive. I'm not
buying into this propaganda anymore. Many
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of the measures we have endured in the
last ten years have not led to more
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security, in terms of state-imposed
surveillance. And this is one reason why I
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don't want to continue this debate about
whether we should sacrifice freedom for
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more security.
---I think power is concealed in the whole
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discourse around surveillance, and the way
its concealed is through this
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legitimization that it's in your interest
that it keeps you safe. But there have
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been many instances where citizens groups
have actually fought against that kind of
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surveillance. And I think there is also
sort of a mystique around music starts
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the technology of surveillance. There is
the whole sort of like this notion that,
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ah, because it's a technology and it's
designed to do this. It's actually
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working. But all of this is a concealment
of power relations because who can surveil
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who? Is the issue, right?
---But it isn't the majority of the
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English population here to get stopped and
searched. It's non-white people. It is not
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the majority of non-white people who get
approached to inform on the community.
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It's Muslim communities.
---The surveillance that one does on the
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other. So as airport, it's the other
passengers that say, oh, so-and-so is
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speaking in Arabic. And therefore, that
person becomes the subject, the target
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that hyper-surveillance. So it's the kind
of surveillances that are being exercised
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by each of us on the other. Because of
this culture of fear that has been
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nourished on a way and that's mushrooming
all around us. And these are fears, I
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think, go anywhere from the most concrete
to the most vague.
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---In this way, I think this is another
way of creating a semblance of control
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where this identity is very easily
visible. It's very easily targeted and
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it's very easily defined.
---For me, this political discussion is
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purely based on fear in which the fear of
people, which is justified, are exploited.
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And where racist stereotypes are being
repeated. I think it extremely dangerous
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to give in to this more and more, also
because I believe that it reinforces
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negative instincts in people. Exclusion,
but also racial profiling.
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Kurz: It's inherently disentranchising,
it's disempowering and it's isolating.
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When you feel you're being treated as a
different person to the rest of the
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population, that's when measures like
surveillance, things that are enabled by
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technology really hit home. And cause you
to sort of change that way you feel as a
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subject. Because at the end of the day,
you are subjective of a government.
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---How is it that these mass surveillance
programs have been kept secret for years
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when they are supposed to be so meaningful
and effective? Why didn't anyone publicly
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justify it? Then why was it all secretly
justified by secret courts with secret
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court rulings? Why, after the Snowden
publications began, did the Commission of
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intelligent Agents, which specifically
appointed Obama com to the conclusion that
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not a single --zero --- of this cases of
terror or attempted terrorist attacks has
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been partially resolved by these giant
telecommunications metadata? In trying to
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stop something from happening before it
happens, they can put in a measure and
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that thing might not happen. But they
don't know it that measure stopped that
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thing from happening, because that thing
never happened. It's hard to measure. You
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can't measure it. And you can't say with
certainty thst because of this measure
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that that didn't happen. But after 9/11,
after the catastrophic level of attack, it
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put decision makers into this impossible
position where citizens where scared. They
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needed to do something. One part of that
is trying to screen everybody objectively
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and have that sort of panoptical
surveillance. Saying that: "No, no. We can
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see everything. Don't worry. We have the
haystack. We just need to find the needle.
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But then obviously, they need ways to
target that. You can see it most clearly
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over here. You got leaflets through your
door a few years ago, basically saying
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that if you've seen anything suspicious,
call this hotline. It listed things like
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the neighbor who goes away on holiday many
times a year or, another neighbor whose
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curtains are always drawn. It just changes
the way you look at society and you look
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at yourself. And it shifts the presumption
of Innocence to a presumption of guilt
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already.
---When is someone a potential suicide
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bomber? This is where the problem begins.
When they wear an explosive belt and holds
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the tiger in their hands? Or when they
order the building blocks for an explosive
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belt online? Or when they informed
themselves about how to build an explosive
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vest? When can the state legally
intervene? For me it is about the central
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very problematic question whether someone
who very problematic question whether
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someone who has been identified as a
potential danger or a potential terrorist,
00:17:55.150 --> 00:18:04.250
without being a terrorist, if someone like
that can then be legally surveilled or
00:18:04.250 --> 00:18:14.520
even arrested? That means if certain
people by potentially posing a concrete
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danger ot society can be stripped of,
their fundamental human rights?
00:18:20.429 --> 00:18:22.990
---We face am unprecedented threat which
will last
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Two days after the attacks in Brüssel on
the 22.03.2016 Jean Claude Juncker and the
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french prime minister held a join pres
conference. But we also believe that we
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need to be a union of security. In it
Juncker called to the ministers to accept
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a proposal by the commision for the
propection of the EU.
00:18:41.690 --> 00:18:48.010
---For over 15 years now we have observed
a big populist push to adopt even more
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surveillance measures. With the attacks of
the past years, there was the opportunity
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to pass even more. We have this proposal
for a new directive whose contents a
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purely based on ideology.
The Text of the law passed in summary
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proceedings was adopteed as an anti-
terrorism directive. Green Member of
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Parlament Jan Phillipp Albrecht wrote in
an Statement to Netzpolitik.org: "What the
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Directive defines as Terrorism could be
used by governments to criminalize
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political action or political protest".
---These type of laws actually are neutral
00:19:23.570 --> 00:19:26.400
in principle. In praxis, they are very
discrimantory. If you talk to any
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.950
politician right now of the EU level or at
the national or local level they will tell
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you that most likely this people are
Muslims.
00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:37.860
---Historically and Philosophically this
problem is well known to us. We always
00:19:37.860 --> 00:19:46.110
tend to put everithing which is unpleasant
or eene to us, to the horizon. "This is
00:19:46.110 --> 00:19:59.169
strange ti us. It is done by others, not
by us." And when one of us does it thent
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they have to be distributed.
---And this is Edward Said's point of view
00:20:05.102 --> 00:20:12.690
that the western seit comes to define
itself in relation to this eastern other.
00:20:12.690 --> 00:20:18.230
So everything that the West was, the East
was'nt and everything that the East was,
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the West wasn't. Ans so the East became
this province of emotionality,
00:20:22.030 --> 00:20:28.080
irrationality. And the West became the
source of reason, everything controlled
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and contained and so forth. And it is this
dichotomy that continues to play itself
00:20:33.210 --> 00:20:36.640
out.
---Terrorism emerged as a term for the
00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:43.620
first time in context of the French
Revolution. The Jacobins who under
00:20:43.620 --> 00:20:49.080
Rebesprierre were the reign of terror,
those where the first Terrorists, that's
00:20:49.080 --> 00:20:54.620
what they called. The first terrorism was
the terrorism of the state and of course
00:20:54.620 --> 00:20:58.970
this also included the systematic
monitoring of Conterrevoliners.
00:20:58.970 --> 00:21:07.370
---Where the proposal of the directive
says that it complies with human rights.
00:21:07.370 --> 00:21:10.320
It actually does not because they want to
increase surveillance measures in order
00:21:10.320 --> 00:21:14.830
for the population to feel safer. However,
we've seen that more repressive measure do
00:21:14.830 --> 00:21:18.440
not necessarily mean that you would have
more security.
00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:25.179
---The way you sell it to people is to
appease their sense of anxieties around
00:21:25.179 --> 00:21:32.020
"Oh, this is an insecure world. Anything
could happen at any time. And so if
00:21:32.020 --> 00:21:36.030
anything could happen at any time, what
can we do about it?
00:21:36.030 --> 00:21:40.610
---You gut the feeling that the text is
trying to make sure that few enforecment
00:21:40.610 --> 00:21:44.270
will be able to get access to
communications by any means that they
00:21:44.270 --> 00:21:46.710
wish.
---To be able to stop something from
00:21:46.710 --> 00:21:50.260
happening before it happens, you have to
know everything. You have to look at the
00:21:50.260 --> 00:21:55.159
past, look at what happened, but also
predict the future by looking at the past
00:21:55.159 --> 00:22:00.670
and then getting as much information as
you can on everything all the time. So
00:22:00.670 --> 00:22:03.760
it's about zero risk.
Kurz: All developed democraties have a
00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:08.870
concept of like proporionality, that's
what the call it in Germany. that
00:22:08.870 --> 00:22:12.020
surveillance measures are weighed up
against the repeat for fundamental rights.
00:22:12.020 --> 00:22:16.071
This undoubtly includes privacy. Privacy
is very highly viewed in Germany and
00:22:16.071 --> 00:22:23.370
directly derived from human dignity. And
human dignity is only negotiable to very
00:22:23.370 --> 00:22:28.919
tiny degree.
---When we are afraid to speak either
00:22:28.919 --> 00:22:32.780
because of our government coming after us
because of a partner or a boss or
00:22:32.780 --> 00:22:37.400
whomever. All sorts of surveillance causes
self censorship. But I think that mass
00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:41.059
surveillance. The idea that everything we
are doing is being collected can cause a
00:22:41.059 --> 00:22:43.730
lot of people to think twice before they
open their mouths.
00:22:43.730 --> 00:22:51.630
---When all your likes can be traced back
to you of course it affects your
00:22:51.630 --> 00:22:56.320
behaviour. Of couse it's usually the case
that sometimes you think: If you like this
00:22:56.320 --> 00:23:01.600
thing or if you don't, it would have some
social repressions.
00:23:01.600 --> 00:23:07.610
---But if you look throughout history, the
Reformation, the gay rights movements all
00:23:07.610 --> 00:23:13.480
these movements where illegal in some way.
If not by law, stricktly, then by culture.
00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:18.710
And if we'd this kind of mass surveillance
would we have had this movements?
00:23:18.710 --> 00:23:23.279
---If all laws were absolutes, then we
would never have progressed to the point
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:27.820
where women had equal rights because women
had to break the laws. That said: "You
00:23:27.820 --> 00:23:32.750
can't have equal rights". Black people in
America had to break the laws that said
00:23:32.750 --> 00:23:40.690
they could not have equal rights. And
there's common thread here. You know a lot
00:23:40.690 --> 00:23:47.950
of our laws historically have had the
harshest effect on the most vulnerable in
00:23:47.950 --> 00:23:51.280
society.
Kurz: The components of whomever has
00:23:51.280 --> 00:23:56.510
something to hide has to blame only
themselves only emerged in recent years.
00:23:56.510 --> 00:24:03.600
In particular, the former CEO of Google
Eric Smith is known for that of course, he
00:24:03.600 --> 00:24:05.480
certyinly said that.
"If you have something that you don't want
00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:09.930
anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be
dooing it on the first place. " But this
00:24:09.930 --> 00:24:16.420
is so hostile to humans that is almost
funny. You could think it is satire. A lot
00:24:16.420 --> 00:24:19.320
of people can't help that they have
something to hide in a society, that is
00:24:19.320 --> 00:24:24.190
unjust. *wieder Eric Shmid" "But if you
really need that kind of privacy, the
00:24:24.190 --> 00:24:36.470
reallity is that search changes including
google to retain that information for some
00:24:36.470 --> 00:24:46.460
time. "
---Big corporations that have this
00:24:46.460 --> 00:24:51.220
business model of people farming are
interested in you becaurse you are the row
00:24:51.220 --> 00:24:55.000
materials. Right. Your Infromation is row
materials. What they do is they process
00:24:55.000 --> 00:25:00.450
that to build a profile of you. And that's
where the real value is. Because if I know
00:25:00.450 --> 00:25:06.030
enough about you, if I as much information
about you that I can build a very
00:25:06.030 --> 00:25:14.020
lifelike, constantly evolving picture of
you, a s simpulation of you. That's very
00:25:14.020 --> 00:25:16.980
vulnerable.
---The economy of the net is predicting
00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:23.159
human behaviour, so that eyeballls can be
delivered to advertising and that's
00:25:23.159 --> 00:25:26.610
targeting advertising.
---The system in ways is set up for them
00:25:26.610 --> 00:25:32.169
to make money and sell our lettle bits of
data, our interests, our demographics for
00:25:32.169 --> 00:25:36.559
other people and for advertisers to be
able to sell things. These companies know
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:40.220
more about us than we know about
ourselves. Right now we're feeding the
00:25:40.220 --> 00:25:43.490
beast. And right now, there's very little
oversight.
00:25:43.490 --> 00:25:49.190
---It has to reach one person, the same ad
at particular time, if at 3:00 p.m. you
00:25:49.190 --> 00:25:55.169
buy the soda you get your lunch. How about
2:55pm you'll get an ad about a discount
00:25:55.169 --> 00:26:01.640
about a pizza place next door or a salad
place. Where had exactly the soda comes.
00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:04.370
So that's what targeted advertising is.
---It is true, it is convinient. You know,
00:26:04.370 --> 00:26:08.610
I always laugh every time I'm on a site.
I'm looking at, let's say, a sweater I
00:26:08.610 --> 00:26:12.080
want to buy. And then I move over to
another site and it advertising for that
00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:16.350
same sweater. It pops up and reminds me
how much I want it. It's both convinient
00:26:16.350 --> 00:26:19.950
and annoying.
---It's a pity that some of the greatest
00:26:19.950 --> 00:26:25.440
minds in our century are only wondering
how to make you look advertising. And
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:30.590
that's where the surveillance economy
beginns, I will say, and not just ends.
00:26:30.590 --> 00:26:36.370
---To a lot of people that may seem much
less harmful. Bur the fact that they're
00:26:36.370 --> 00:26:41.130
capturing this date means that data exists
and we don't who they might share it with.
00:26:41.130 --> 00:26:45.409
---There is whole new business now, you
know, data brokers who drew upon, you
00:26:45.409 --> 00:26:50.180
know, thousands of data points and create
client profiles to sell to companies. Now,
00:26:50.180 --> 00:26:53.929
you don't really know what happens with
this kind of things. So it is hard to
00:26:53.929 --> 00:26:59.870
tell, what the implications are until it
is too late. Until it happens.
00:26:59.870 --> 00:27:03.850
---The Stasi compared to Google or
Facebook, where amateurs, the Stasi
00:27:03.850 --> 00:27:10.570
actually had to use people to surcail you
to spy on you. That was expensive. It was
00:27:10.570 --> 00:27:16.250
time consuming. They had to pick targets.
It was very expensive for them to have all
00:27:16.250 --> 00:27:21.320
of these people spying on you. Facebook
and Google don't have to do that. They use
00:27:21.320 --> 00:27:26.169
Algorithms, that's the mass in mass
surveillance. The fact that it is so
00:27:26.169 --> 00:27:32.200
cheap, so convenient to spy on so many
people. And it's not a conspiracy theory.
00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:36.179
You don't need conspiracies when you have
the simplicity of business models.
00:27:36.179 --> 00:27:42.570
---When we talk about algorithms, we
actually talk about logic. When you want,
00:27:42.570 --> 00:27:48.669
for example, buy a book on Amazon. You
have always seen a few other suggestions.
00:27:48.669 --> 00:27:54.910
These suggestions are produced for you
based on the history of your preferences,
00:27:54.910 --> 00:28:00.280
the history of your searches.
---They learn by making mistakes. And the
00:28:00.280 --> 00:28:07.080
thing is, that's fine if it's like selling
dog feed. But it's about predictive
00:28:07.080 --> 00:28:12.480
pollicing and about creating a matrix
where you see which individuals are
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:17.130
threatening, that's not ok for me. You
know, that has to be limits. There has to
00:28:17.130 --> 00:28:22.360
be lines. And these are all the dynamics
that are coming from the bottom up. These
00:28:22.360 --> 00:28:26.100
are the discussions that need to be had,
but they need to be had with all actors.
00:28:26.100 --> 00:28:31.190
It's can't just be a an echo chamber. You
don't talk to the some people who agree
00:28:31.190 --> 00:28:36.240
with you.
---So one consequence of this would be
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:42.690
many minorities or many people who have
minority views would be silenced. And we
00:28:42.690 --> 00:28:47.400
always know that when a minority view is
silenced, it would empower them in a way
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:57.250
and it would radicalize them in the long
run. This is one aspect. The other is that
00:28:57.250 --> 00:29:00.640
you would never be challenged by anyone,
who disagrees with you.
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:07.409
---We have to understand that our data is
not exhaust. Our data is not oil. Data is
00:29:07.409 --> 00:29:13.460
people. You maybe not doing anything wrong
today, but maybe three governments from
00:29:13.460 --> 00:29:19.151
now when they pass a certain law, what you
have done today might be illegal, for
00:29:19.151 --> 00:29:24.530
example, and governments that keep that
data can look back over 10, 20 years and
00:29:24.530 --> 00:29:33.289
maybe start prosecuting.
---When everything we buy, everything we
00:29:33.289 --> 00:29:43.679
read, even the people we meet and date is
determined by this algorithms, I think the
00:29:43.679 --> 00:29:49.581
amount of power that they exert on the
society and individuals in this society is
00:29:49.581 --> 00:29:56.510
more than the state to the some degree.
And so there I think representatives
00:29:56.510 --> 00:30:03.679
democracy have the duty to push the
government to open up these private
00:30:03.679 --> 00:30:12.850
entities, to at least expose to some
degree how much control they exert.
00:30:12.850 --> 00:30:14.510
---If you adopt the technological
perspective and realize that technology
00:30:14.510 --> 00:30:19.059
will slip into our lives much more than is
already the case: Technically into our
00:30:19.059 --> 00:30:22.620
bodies, our clothes, into devices that we
sit in an we're wearing, in all sorts of
00:30:22.620 --> 00:30:32.220
areas of our coexistence and working life,
then that's definitely the wrong way to
00:30:32.220 --> 00:30:35.360
go. Because it leads to a total
surveillance. And if you think about it
00:30:35.360 --> 00:31:30.570
for a few minutes, you will realize that
the dichotomy is between control &
00:31:30.570 --> 00:31:42.130
freedom. And a fully controlled society
cannot be free.
00:31:42.130 --> 00:31:43.130
post film music
[Filler please remove in amara]
00:31:43.130 --> 00:31:52.630
Herald: Hello and welcome back from the
movie and know I welcome also our
00:31:52.630 --> 00:32:09.110
producer. And. It was very. Oh, yeah,
showing very good. What information can do
00:32:09.110 --> 00:32:16.190
and what could be done with information, I
give some people a bit more time to ask
00:32:16.190 --> 00:32:27.779
more questions. And in the meantime, I
could ask, Oh, well, this is moving. Those
00:32:27.779 --> 00:32:37.539
of these remote to your home was not shown
today for the first time. So what would
00:32:37.539 --> 00:32:46.120
you do different or what you think has
maybe changed in the meanwhile since you
00:32:46.120 --> 00:32:50.840
made it?
pandemonium: What I would change is I
00:32:50.840 --> 00:32:59.890
would definitely try much harder to secure
funding to just simply make a better movie
00:32:59.890 --> 00:33:05.440
and have more time and edited faster
because the editing process, because I had
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:12.429
to work on the side was quite long. And
this film, and the way it stands now, was
00:33:12.429 --> 00:33:20.320
essentially only funded by a few very
great people who supported me on Patreon
00:33:20.320 --> 00:33:26.539
and helped me with some of their private
money, essentially so that it was
00:33:26.539 --> 00:33:30.280
essentially an almost no budget
production. So I would definitely change
00:33:30.280 --> 00:33:36.730
that. But documentary seen in Germany
being what it is, it's very hard to secure
00:33:36.730 --> 00:33:41.960
money if you're not attached to a TV
station or if you don't have a name yet.
00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:47.100
And since I didn't have a name, but I
still want to make the movie, I made the
00:33:47.100 --> 00:33:52.730
movie. I am still very happy with the
general direction of it. But of course,
00:33:52.730 --> 00:34:00.860
since that was mainly shot in 2015 and
2016, some of the newer developments in
00:34:00.860 --> 00:34:10.800
terms of especially biometric mass
surveillance and police. Especially in the
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:18.020
U.S., the way police uses body cams, etc.
is not really reflected. But I still think
00:34:18.020 --> 00:34:25.370
that the I would still go with the whole
angle on colonialism and racism that is
00:34:25.370 --> 00:34:30.889
deeply entrenched in the discussions
around surveillance and privacy. And we
00:34:30.889 --> 00:34:36.220
can see that in discussions about shutting
down Telegram in Germany at the moment
00:34:36.220 --> 00:34:42.050
because right wing groups the there we see
it in discussions about how to deal with
00:34:42.050 --> 00:34:48.560
hate speech online on Facebook or the
Metaverse. And it's going to be called
00:34:48.560 --> 00:34:53.900
Zoom. And all of these things are already
kind of in the movie, but I would have
00:34:53.900 --> 00:35:00.880
probably focused a bit more on them if I'd
known. Six years ago what would happen and
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:06.920
if I would make it now? But generally, the
direction I would choose the same.
00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:18.990
Herald: Yeah, it's quite fascinating. So
it was nearly no budget was so low, and it
00:35:18.990 --> 00:35:28.890
was also an interesting point to entertain
now, because in principle, I understood
00:35:28.890 --> 00:35:35.840
the ideas that body cams should create
actually a means of protecting people
00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:42.190
against police and not the other way
around as it happens sometimes.
00:35:42.190 --> 00:35:47.930
pandemonium: So there are definitely and
the problem with especially body cams or
00:35:47.930 --> 00:35:55.200
also other of other means of surveillance
is that a video is always thought to be an
00:35:55.200 --> 00:36:01.930
objective recording of the reality. But of
course, it always depends on the angle and
00:36:01.930 --> 00:36:08.010
cases of body cams, quite literally the
angle, but also data interpretation. And
00:36:08.010 --> 00:36:14.630
since humans are always full of biases and
always full of presumptions about who
00:36:14.630 --> 00:36:21.380
might be in the right and who might be in
the wrong, these imagery, images or videos
00:36:21.380 --> 00:36:25.180
tend to never, even if they would be
showing the objective truth, they're
00:36:25.180 --> 00:36:31.990
barely ever interpret it that way. And
it's exactly the same with any sort of
00:36:31.990 --> 00:36:38.890
film or photography that we're doing. I
mean, for this movie, I assembled a ton of
00:36:38.890 --> 00:36:42.550
interviews and there were very long there
were several hours long in many cases, and
00:36:42.550 --> 00:36:49.160
I could added probably 100 different
versions of this movie going essentially
00:36:49.160 --> 00:36:58.569
almost opposite directions, exactly the
same material. It shows very strongly how
00:36:58.569 --> 00:37:05.869
important it is, that at the end of the
day we overcome our biosies as judges, as
00:37:05.869 --> 00:37:12.220
police people, as people walking on the
street an trying to overcome any sort of
00:37:12.220 --> 00:37:22.480
surveillance on this impossible on the
technical level, is always connected with
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:32.160
the way, we understand world.
Herald: Yeah, this is, I also remember a
00:37:32.160 --> 00:37:45.110
talk several years ago , it was about one
of "freiheit statt Angst" Demonstrations
00:37:45.110 --> 00:37:54.160
in Berlin. And there was also a case,
where the term was established, the guy
00:37:54.160 --> 00:38:02.849
with a t-shirt got beaten by police and it
was very hard to assemble different videos
00:38:02.849 --> 00:38:11.410
and to tell the whole story, what had
happened. You should be able to find that,
00:38:11.410 --> 00:38:18.290
there was a talk , where this was
constructed somehow.
00:38:18.290 --> 00:38:23.079
Producer: I will definitely looked that
up.
00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:31.250
Herald. But I'm not sure about the year
anymore but you will find it. Now we have
00:38:31.250 --> 00:38:38.040
a real question from the audience. The
first is, can I find the movie anywhere
00:38:38.040 --> 00:38:42.790
and show it to somebody else?
Producer: Yes. It is on YouTube. laugh
00:38:42.790 --> 00:38:46.099
Herald: Ok.
Producer: You can literally find it by
00:38:46.099 --> 00:38:54.540
typing my name, which is Theresia
Reinhold. And you can find it.
00:38:54.540 --> 00:39:07.590
Herald. ok. So, its very good. So, I hope
they are happy. Is the 21. Century
00:39:07.590 --> 00:39:12.980
attention span for non-technical friend
with biggest claim. I don't get the
00:39:12.980 --> 00:39:35.650
questions. The Idea is: Is there a way of
explaining the non technical people, what
00:39:35.650 --> 00:39:40.690
is the problem with "I do not have nothing
to hide".
00:39:40.690 --> 00:39:48.070
Producer: If there is anything in your
life, where you are happy, no one is
00:39:48.070 --> 00:39:52.760
watching you doing, whether it is a
Century video, that a lot of people don't
00:39:52.760 --> 00:40:01.050
know, that you are watching. Or singing in
the shower or anything, then that is your
00:40:01.050 --> 00:40:13.109
absolute right that you are not. No one is
judging you on them, and that's the same
00:40:13.109 --> 00:40:19.290
with mass surveillance and surfing online
or walking down the street. We have a very
00:40:19.290 --> 00:40:26.630
basic comfort zone, should be protected.
Know we have a human right to privacy and
00:40:26.630 --> 00:40:31.130
whether it's in a technical room or in an
analog room, like being in a shopping mall
00:40:31.130 --> 00:40:34.660
and picking up, I don't know whatever you
don't want other people to know that
00:40:34.660 --> 00:40:40.390
you're buying. You should have the right
to do that in private and not have it be
00:40:40.390 --> 00:40:45.500
known to other people. And when we are
surfing the internet, everything we do is
00:40:45.500 --> 00:40:54.280
constantly analyzed and watched in real
time and you notice our movements online
00:40:54.280 --> 00:41:00.119
are sold to the highest bidder and as a
whole, massive advertising industry behind
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:08.609
it. And that's just immoral because humans
should have always the ability to share
00:41:08.609 --> 00:41:15.532
only what they want to share. That's how I
try to explain it to non tech people. And
00:41:15.532 --> 00:41:17.550
if they're not tech, people from the
former east, is just here to move to Stasi
00:41:17.550 --> 00:41:20.620
and they know exactly what you're talking
about.
00:41:20.620 --> 00:41:27.109
Herald: Yes, thanks for this explanation
again. And I think also what is important,
00:41:27.109 --> 00:41:34.220
what was also mentioned in the movie is
the thing with that is and speak, since it
00:41:34.220 --> 00:41:41.420
can be stored now that it's so that future
can haunt your history. Kind of.
00:41:41.420 --> 00:41:47.510
pandemonium. Yeah.
Herald: And actually, the question was
00:41:47.510 --> 00:41:58.400
now be more precise. And actually, it was
not what I asked you Laughs. Actually is
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:06.880
the question of whether there is or there
could be a short teaser that people could
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:12.260
send to your friends to two of their
friends to to watch the whole movie?
00:42:12.260 --> 00:42:15.630
laughs
Reinhold: Oh yes, there is. And that is
00:42:15.630 --> 00:42:20.119
also on YouTube and on Vimeo. OK, sorry.
Yes. Laugh
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:27.320
Herald: Well, I also didn't get it from
the question. So OK, so people will find
00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:34.410
it very good. So then I guess we are
through with the questions, and I thank
00:42:34.410 --> 00:42:46.760
you again for your nice movie and for
being here. Yeah, and. Then this talk is
00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:57.010
over here. Chaos zone a TV comes back to
you at four p.m. with the talk "tales from
00:42:57.010 --> 00:43:05.170
the quantum industry" until then? Oh yeah.
Which some other streams go to the world
00:43:05.170 --> 00:43:08.329
or. Have some lunch. See you.
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00:43:08.329 --> 00:43:09.329
post roll music
[Filler please remove in amara]
00:43:09.329 --> 00:43:10.829
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