WEBVTT 00:00:08.670 --> 00:00:09.670 *RC3 preroll music* [Filler please remove in amara] 00:00:09.670 --> 00:00:15.599 Herald: Welcome back on the channel, of Chaos zone TV. Now we have an English 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:23.930 speaking contribution. And for that, I welcome pandemonium, who is a historian 00:00:23.930 --> 00:00:33.290 and documentary film maker, and therefore we will also not have a normal talk, but 00:00:33.290 --> 00:00:40.899 we will see the documentary information. What are they looking at? A documentary on 00:00:40.899 --> 00:00:49.500 privacy. And afterwards, we can all talk about the film, so feel free to post your 00:00:49.500 --> 00:00:56.739 questions and we can discuss them. Let's enjoy the film. 00:00:56.739 --> 00:01:01.150 *film started* [Filler please remove in amara] 00:01:01.150 --> 00:01:03.060 ---Because the great promise of the internet is freedom. Freedom of 00:01:03.060 --> 00:01:07.780 expression, freedom of organization, freedom of assembly. These are really seen 00:01:07.780 --> 00:01:10.350 as underpinning rights of what we see as democratic values. 00:01:10.350 --> 00:01:12.330 ---Just because you have safety does not mean that you cannot have freedom. Just 00:01:12.330 --> 00:01:15.330 because you have freedom does not mean you cannot have safety. 00:01:15.330 --> 00:01:24.100 ---Why is the reaction to doubt it rather than to assume that it's true and act 00:01:24.100 --> 00:01:27.890 accordingly? ---We need to be able to break those laws 00:01:27.890 --> 00:01:29.610 that are unjust. ---Privacy is an essence, becoming a de 00:01:29.610 --> 00:01:30.610 facto crime. That is somehow you are hiding something. 00:01:30.610 --> 00:01:31.610 ---So just to be sure let's have no privacy. 00:01:31.610 --> 00:01:32.610 "Information, what are they looking at? A film by Theresia Reinhold. 00:01:32.610 --> 00:01:34.619 "The Internet is [...] everywhere, but we only see it in the glimpses. The internet 00:01:34.619 --> 00:02:16.510 is like the wholy ghost: it makes itself knowable to us by taking possession of the 00:02:16.510 --> 00:02:17.510 pixels on our screens to manifest sites and apps and email, but its essence is 00:02:17.510 --> 00:02:18.510 always elsewhere. ---Before the Internet came about, 00:02:18.510 --> 00:02:25.190 communication was generally one editor to many, many readers. But now it's peer to 00:02:25.190 --> 00:02:30.900 peer. So, you know, at a touch of a button people have an opportunity to reach 00:02:30.900 --> 00:02:34.000 millions of people. That's revolutionizing the way we communicate. 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:38.280 ---One of the things that Facebook and to a lesser degree Twitter allowed people to 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:43.800 do is be able to see that they weren't alone. And it was able to create a 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:49.530 critical mass. And I think that's a very important role that social media took on. 00:02:49.530 --> 00:02:53.239 It was able to show people a very easy way in people's Facebook feeds: "Oh, wow. Look 00:02:53.239 --> 00:02:57.210 at Tahrir Square, there's people out there in Bahrain, in Pearl Square." What people 00:02:57.210 --> 00:03:02.099 could feel before walking out their door into real life action, that they could see 00:03:02.099 --> 00:03:07.220 that they are not isolated in their desire for some sort of change. 00:03:07.220 --> 00:03:12.440 ---The great promise of the internet is freedom where the minds without fear and 00:03:12.440 --> 00:03:18.340 the head is held high. And the knowledge is free. Because the promise was: This 00:03:18.340 --> 00:03:22.400 will be the great equalizer. ---Before the social web, before the Web 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:29.280 2.0, anything you were doing was kind of anonymous. By the very concept of 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:36.720 anonymity you were able to discuss things that would probably be not according to 00:03:36.720 --> 00:03:42.030 dominance themes or the dominant trends of values of your own society. 00:03:42.030 --> 00:03:50.550 ---I don't find this discussion about how to deal with the assertion "I have nothing 00:03:50.550 --> 00:03:59.849 to hide" boring, even after many years. Because this sentence is very short, but 00:03:59.849 --> 00:04:07.099 very perfidious. The speaker, who hurls the sentence "I have nothing to hide" at 00:04:07.099 --> 00:04:13.140 me, not only says something about themselves, but also something about me. 00:04:13.140 --> 00:04:17.640 Because this sentence "I have nothing to hide" also has the unspoken component of 00:04:17.640 --> 00:04:26.930 "You don't either, do you?" In this respect, I think this sentence lacks 00:04:26.930 --> 00:04:30.160 solidarity, because at the same time one does not want to work to ensure that the 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:32.699 other, who perhaps has something to hide, is able to do so. 00:04:32.699 --> 00:04:37.741 ---One of the things about privacy is that it's not always about you. It's about the 00:04:37.741 --> 00:04:41.620 people in our networks. And so, for example, I have a lot of friends who are 00:04:41.620 --> 00:04:46.180 from Syria. People that I have met in other places in the world, not necessary 00:04:46.180 --> 00:04:51.360 refugees. People who lived abroad for a while, but those people are at risk all 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:56.020 the time. Both in their home country and often in their host countries as well. And 00:04:56.020 --> 00:05:00.680 so, I might say that I have nothing to hide. I might say that there's no reason 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:04.979 that I need to keep myself safe. But if you've got any more like that in a 00:05:04.979 --> 00:05:10.780 network, any activists, any people from countries like that, it's thinking about 00:05:10.780 --> 00:05:14.970 privacy and thinking about security means thinking about keeping those people safe, 00:05:14.970 --> 00:05:17.760 too. Privacy is important, because if think of 00:05:17.760 --> 00:05:23.690 the alternative, if everything is public, if the norm is public, then anything that 00:05:23.690 --> 00:05:29.471 you want to keep to yourself has an association or guild attached. And that 00:05:29.471 --> 00:05:33.804 should not be the world that we create. That's a chilling effect. It's a chilling 00:05:33.804 --> 00:05:37.980 effect on our freedoms. It's a chilling effect on democracy. 00:05:37.980 --> 00:05:41.450 "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with this privacy, family, 00:05:41.450 --> 00:05:44.920 home or correspondence, for the attacks upon his honor and reputation. Everyone 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:48.970 has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks. 00:05:48.970 --> 00:05:55.610 ---To me, human rights are something which has been put to place to guarantee the 00:05:55.610 --> 00:06:00.370 freedoms of every single person in the world. They're supposed to be universal, 00:06:00.370 --> 00:06:05.710 indivisible. Having in the eyes of this systems. 00:06:05.710 --> 00:06:09.940 ---They're collecting data and metadata about hundreds of thousands, millions of 00:06:09.940 --> 00:06:14.669 people. And some of that data will never be looked at. That's a fact. We know that. 00:06:14.669 --> 00:06:19.710 But at the same time, assuming that just because you're not involved in activism or 00:06:19.710 --> 00:06:24.139 you're not well known that you're not going to be a target at some point, I 00:06:24.139 --> 00:06:28.680 think, that is what can be really harmful to us. Right now you may not be under any 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:33.580 threat at all, but your friends might be, your family might be or you might be in 00:06:33.580 --> 00:06:37.080 the future. And so that's why we need to think about it this way, not because we're 00:06:37.080 --> 00:06:41.400 going to be snatched out of our homes in the middle of the night now. But because 00:06:41.400 --> 00:06:45.509 this data and this metadata lasts for a long time. 00:06:45.509 --> 00:06:53.930 ---My observation is what we are experiencing right now is that the private 00:06:53.930 --> 00:07:05.781 space that should be and remain private in the digital world is slowly beginning to 00:07:05.781 --> 00:07:13.250 erode. It is becoming permeable, and not just factual. Factually, of course, but 00:07:13.250 --> 00:07:21.700 not only factually, but also in perception. I imagine the digital world as 00:07:21.700 --> 00:07:31.500 a panoptical. This is the ring-shaped building designed by Jeremy Benthem. In 00:07:31.500 --> 00:07:38.120 the ring the prisoners are accommodated in the individual cell, and in the middle 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:47.960 there is a watchtower. And there is a guard sitting there. And this guard, who 00:07:47.960 --> 00:07:57.860 can observe and supervise the prisoners in the cells around him all the time. The 00:07:57.860 --> 00:08:04.790 trick is that the prisoners cannot know if they are being watched. They only see the 00:08:04.790 --> 00:08:10.620 tower, but they don't see the warden. But they know very well that they could be 00:08:10.620 --> 00:08:16.360 watched permanently at any time. And this fact exerts a changing decisive effect. 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:24.229 ---I think surveillance is a technology of governmentality. It's a bio political 00:08:24.229 --> 00:08:30.789 technology. It's there to control and manage populations. It's really propelled 00:08:30.789 --> 00:08:38.280 by state power and the power of entities that are glued in that cohere around the 00:08:38.280 --> 00:08:45.780 state, right? So it is there as a form of population management and control. So you 00:08:45.780 --> 00:08:51.279 have to convince people that it's in their interest and its like: Every man for 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:55.950 himself and everyone is out to get everyone. 00:08:55.950 --> 00:09:12.870 *relaying music is plays* [Filler please remove in amara] 00:09:12.870 --> 00:09:21.430 ---I take my cue from a former general counsel of the NSA, Suart Baker, who said 00:09:21.430 --> 00:09:27.240 on this question: Meta-Data absolutely tells you everything about somebodies 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:31.990 life. If you have enough Meta-Data you don't really need content. It is sort of 00:09:31.990 --> 00:09:35.370 embarrassing, how predictable we are as human beings. 00:09:35.370 --> 00:09:41.301 ---So let's say that you make a phone one night, you call up a suicide hotline, for 00:09:41.301 --> 00:09:46.490 example, you're feeling down, you call that hotline and then a few hours later 00:09:46.490 --> 00:09:52.380 maybe you call a friend. A few hours later you call a doctor, you send an email and 00:09:52.380 --> 00:09:57.690 so on so forth. Now, the contents of that of those calls and those e-mails are not 00:09:57.690 --> 00:10:02.150 necessarily collected. What's being collected is the time of the call and the 00:10:02.150 --> 00:10:06.800 place that you called. And so sometimes in events like that, those different pieces 00:10:06.800 --> 00:10:10.160 of metadata can be linked together to profile someone. 00:10:10.160 --> 00:10:14.920 ---David's description of what you can do with metadata, and quoting a mutual friend 00:10:14.920 --> 00:10:21.430 Stewart Baker, is absolutely correct. We kill people based on Meta-Data. But that 00:10:21.430 --> 00:10:30.560 is not what we do with this Meta-Data. Mayor Denett: Thankfully. Wow, I was 00:10:30.560 --> 00:10:32.760 working up a sweat there *Mayor laughs* for a second. 00:10:32.760 --> 00:10:37.839 ---You know, the impetus for governments for conducting this kind of surveillance 00:10:37.839 --> 00:10:42.950 is often at least in rhetoric go to after terrorists. And obviously, we don't want 00:10:42.950 --> 00:10:48.430 terrorism. And so that justification resonates with most of the public. But I 00:10:48.430 --> 00:10:52.019 think that there's a couple problems with it. The first is that they haven't 00:10:52.019 --> 00:10:55.930 demonstrated to us that surveillance actually works in stopping terrorist 00:10:55.930 --> 00:11:00.830 attacks. We haven't seen it work yet. It didn't work in Paris. It didn't work in 00:11:00.830 --> 00:11:05.170 Boston. t didn't work elsewhere. So that's one part of it. But then I think the other 00:11:05.170 --> 00:11:10.389 part of it is that we spend billions of dollars on surveillance and on war, but 00:11:10.389 --> 00:11:13.280 spend very little money on addressing the root causes of terrorism. 00:11:13.280 --> 00:11:17.740 ---I consider this debate security versus freedom to be a bugaboo. Because these 00:11:17.740 --> 00:11:22.209 values are not mutually exclusive. I'm not buying into this propaganda anymore. Many 00:11:22.209 --> 00:11:28.740 of the measures we have endured in the last ten years have not led to more 00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:34.180 security, in terms of state-imposed surveillance. And this is one reason why I 00:11:34.180 --> 00:11:42.480 don't want to continue this debate about whether we should sacrifice freedom for 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:47.381 more security. ---I think power is concealed in the whole 00:11:47.381 --> 00:11:53.130 discourse around surveillance, and the way its concealed is through this 00:11:53.130 --> 00:12:00.710 legitimization that it's in your interest that it keeps you safe. But there have 00:12:00.710 --> 00:12:07.470 been many instances where citizens groups have actually fought against that kind of 00:12:07.470 --> 00:12:11.450 surveillance. And I think there is also sort of a mystique around *music starts* 00:12:11.450 --> 00:12:15.690 the technology of surveillance. There is the whole sort of like this notion that, 00:12:15.690 --> 00:12:20.280 ah, because it's a technology and it's designed to do this. It's actually 00:12:20.280 --> 00:12:25.589 working. But all of this is a concealment of power relations because who can surveil 00:12:25.589 --> 00:12:31.720 who? Is the issue, right? ---But it isn't the majority of the 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:38.190 English population here to get stopped and searched. It's non-white people. It is not 00:12:38.190 --> 00:12:42.519 the majority of non-white people who get approached to inform on the community. 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:47.649 It's Muslim communities. ---The surveillance that one does on the 00:12:47.649 --> 00:12:55.540 other. So as airport, it's the other passengers that say, oh, so-and-so is 00:12:55.540 --> 00:13:03.240 speaking in Arabic. And therefore, that person becomes the subject, the target 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:08.380 that hyper-surveillance. So it's the kind of surveillances that are being exercised 00:13:08.380 --> 00:13:15.810 by each of us on the other. Because of this culture of fear that has been 00:13:15.810 --> 00:13:23.430 nourished on a way and that's mushrooming all around us. And these are fears, I 00:13:23.430 --> 00:13:27.600 think, go anywhere from the most concrete to the most vague. 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:32.680 ---In this way, I think this is another way of creating a semblance of control 00:13:32.680 --> 00:13:38.200 where this identity is very easily visible. It's very easily targeted and 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:41.620 it's very easily defined. ---For me, this political discussion is 00:13:41.620 --> 00:13:51.639 purely based on fear in which the fear of people, which is justified, are exploited. 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:58.750 And where racist stereotypes are being repeated. I think it extremely dangerous 00:13:58.750 --> 00:14:08.089 to give in to this more and more, also because I believe that it reinforces 00:14:08.089 --> 00:14:13.269 negative instincts in people. Exclusion, but also racial profiling. 00:14:13.269 --> 00:14:17.529 Kurz: It's inherently disentranchising, it's disempowering and it's isolating. 00:14:17.529 --> 00:14:22.990 When you feel you're being treated as a different person to the rest of the 00:14:22.990 --> 00:14:27.220 population, that's when measures like surveillance, things that are enabled by 00:14:27.220 --> 00:14:37.710 technology really hit home. And cause you to sort of change that way you feel as a 00:14:37.710 --> 00:14:40.160 subject. Because at the end of the day, you are subjective of a government. 00:14:40.160 --> 00:14:46.730 ---How is it that these mass surveillance programs have been kept secret for years 00:14:46.730 --> 00:14:52.220 when they are supposed to be so meaningful and effective? Why didn't anyone publicly 00:14:52.220 --> 00:14:57.710 justify it? Then why was it all secretly justified by secret courts with secret 00:14:57.710 --> 00:15:02.410 court rulings? Why, after the Snowden publications began, did the Commission of 00:15:02.410 --> 00:15:06.530 intelligent Agents, which specifically appointed Obama com to the conclusion that 00:15:06.530 --> 00:15:14.550 not a single --zero --- of this cases of terror or attempted terrorist attacks has 00:15:14.550 --> 00:15:20.010 been partially resolved by these giant telecommunications metadata? In trying to 00:15:20.010 --> 00:15:26.029 stop something from happening before it happens, they can put in a measure and 00:15:26.029 --> 00:15:30.630 that thing might not happen. But they don't know it that measure stopped that 00:15:30.630 --> 00:15:34.959 thing from happening, because that thing never happened. It's hard to measure. You 00:15:34.959 --> 00:15:38.690 can't measure it. And you can't say with certainty thst because of this measure 00:15:38.690 --> 00:15:47.240 that that didn't happen. But after 9/11, after the catastrophic level of attack, it 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:54.620 put decision makers into this impossible position where citizens where scared. They 00:15:54.620 --> 00:16:01.209 needed to do something. One part of that is trying to screen everybody objectively 00:16:01.209 --> 00:16:07.220 and have that sort of panoptical surveillance. Saying that: "No, no. We can 00:16:07.220 --> 00:16:13.709 see everything. Don't worry. We have the haystack. We just need to find the needle. 00:16:13.709 --> 00:16:17.670 But then obviously, they need ways to target that. You can see it most clearly 00:16:17.670 --> 00:16:22.930 over here. You got leaflets through your door a few years ago, basically saying 00:16:22.930 --> 00:16:29.069 that if you've seen anything suspicious, call this hotline. It listed things like 00:16:29.069 --> 00:16:38.220 the neighbor who goes away on holiday many times a year or, another neighbor whose 00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:44.459 curtains are always drawn. It just changes the way you look at society and you look 00:16:44.459 --> 00:16:51.430 at yourself. And it shifts the presumption of Innocence to a presumption of guilt 00:16:51.430 --> 00:16:55.769 already. ---When is someone a potential suicide 00:16:55.769 --> 00:17:07.910 bomber? This is where the problem begins. When they wear an explosive belt and holds 00:17:07.910 --> 00:17:17.309 the tiger in their hands? Or when they order the building blocks for an explosive 00:17:17.309 --> 00:17:29.360 belt online? Or when they informed themselves about how to build an explosive 00:17:29.360 --> 00:17:38.250 vest? When can the state legally intervene? For me it is about the central 00:17:38.250 --> 00:17:45.600 very problematic question whether someone who very problematic question whether 00:17:45.600 --> 00:17:55.150 someone who has been identified as a potential danger or a potential terrorist, 00:17:55.150 --> 00:18:04.250 without being a terrorist, if someone like that can then be legally surveilled or 00:18:04.250 --> 00:18:14.520 even arrested? That means if certain people by potentially posing a concrete 00:18:14.520 --> 00:18:20.429 danger ot society can be stripped of, their fundamental human rights? 00:18:20.429 --> 00:18:22.990 ---We face am unprecedented threat which will last 00:18:22.990 --> 00:18:25.740 Two days after the attacks in Brüssel on the 22.03.2016 Jean Claude Juncker and the 00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:33.299 french prime minister held a join pres conference. But we also believe that we 00:18:33.299 --> 00:18:37.070 need to be a union of security. In it Juncker called to the ministers to accept 00:18:37.070 --> 00:18:41.690 a proposal by the commision for the propection of the EU. 00:18:41.690 --> 00:18:48.010 ---For over 15 years now we have observed a big populist push to adopt even more 00:18:48.010 --> 00:18:52.200 surveillance measures. With the attacks of the past years, there was the opportunity 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:57.940 to pass even more. We have this proposal for a new directive whose contents a 00:18:57.940 --> 00:19:03.030 purely based on ideology. The Text of the law passed in summary 00:19:03.030 --> 00:19:07.140 proceedings was adopteed as an anti- terrorism directive. Green Member of 00:19:07.140 --> 00:19:15.210 Parlament Jan Phillipp Albrecht wrote in an Statement to Netzpolitik.org: "What the 00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:17.980 Directive defines as Terrorism could be used by governments to criminalize 00:19:17.980 --> 00:19:23.570 political action or political protest". ---These type of laws actually are neutral 00:19:23.570 --> 00:19:26.400 in principle. In praxis, they are very discrimantory. If you talk to any 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.950 politician right now of the EU level or at the national or local level they will tell 00:19:30.950 --> 00:19:33.940 you that most likely this people are Muslims. 00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:37.860 ---Historically and Philosophically this problem is well known to us. We always 00:19:37.860 --> 00:19:46.110 tend to put everithing which is unpleasant or eene to us, to the horizon. "This is 00:19:46.110 --> 00:19:59.169 strange ti us. It is done by others, not by us." And when one of us does it thent 00:19:59.169 --> 00:20:05.102 they have to be distributed. ---And this is Edward Said's point of view 00:20:05.102 --> 00:20:12.690 that the western seit comes to define itself in relation to this eastern other. 00:20:12.690 --> 00:20:18.230 So everything that the West was, the East was'nt and everything that the East was, 00:20:18.230 --> 00:20:22.030 the West wasn't. Ans so the East became this province of emotionality, 00:20:22.030 --> 00:20:28.080 irrationality. And the West became the source of reason, everything controlled 00:20:28.080 --> 00:20:33.210 and contained and so forth. And it is this dichotomy that continues to play itself 00:20:33.210 --> 00:20:36.640 out. ---Terrorism emerged as a term for the 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:43.620 first time in context of the French Revolution. The Jacobins who under 00:20:43.620 --> 00:20:49.080 Rebesprierre were the reign of terror, those where the first Terrorists, that's 00:20:49.080 --> 00:20:54.620 what they called. The first terrorism was the terrorism of the state and of course 00:20:54.620 --> 00:20:58.970 this also included the systematic monitoring of Conterrevoliners. 00:20:58.970 --> 00:21:07.370 ---Where the proposal of the directive says that it complies with human rights. 00:21:07.370 --> 00:21:10.320 It actually does not because they want to increase surveillance measures in order 00:21:10.320 --> 00:21:14.830 for the population to feel safer. However, we've seen that more repressive measure do 00:21:14.830 --> 00:21:18.440 not necessarily mean that you would have more security. 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:25.179 ---The way you sell it to people is to appease their sense of anxieties around 00:21:25.179 --> 00:21:32.020 "Oh, this is an insecure world. Anything could happen at any time. And so if 00:21:32.020 --> 00:21:36.030 anything could happen at any time, what can we do about it? 00:21:36.030 --> 00:21:40.610 ---You gut the feeling that the text is trying to make sure that few enforecment 00:21:40.610 --> 00:21:44.270 will be able to get access to communications by any means that they 00:21:44.270 --> 00:21:46.710 wish. ---To be able to stop something from 00:21:46.710 --> 00:21:50.260 happening before it happens, you have to know everything. You have to look at the 00:21:50.260 --> 00:21:55.159 past, look at what happened, but also predict the future by looking at the past 00:21:55.159 --> 00:22:00.670 and then getting as much information as you can on everything all the time. So 00:22:00.670 --> 00:22:03.760 it's about zero risk. Kurz: All developed democraties have a 00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:08.870 concept of like proporionality, that's what the call it in Germany. that 00:22:08.870 --> 00:22:12.020 surveillance measures are weighed up against the repeat for fundamental rights. 00:22:12.020 --> 00:22:16.071 This undoubtly includes privacy. Privacy is very highly viewed in Germany and 00:22:16.071 --> 00:22:23.370 directly derived from human dignity. And human dignity is only negotiable to very 00:22:23.370 --> 00:22:28.919 tiny degree. ---When we are afraid to speak either 00:22:28.919 --> 00:22:32.780 because of our government coming after us because of a partner or a boss or 00:22:32.780 --> 00:22:37.400 whomever. All sorts of surveillance causes self censorship. But I think that mass 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:41.059 surveillance. The idea that everything we are doing is being collected can cause a 00:22:41.059 --> 00:22:43.730 lot of people to think twice before they open their mouths. 00:22:43.730 --> 00:22:51.630 ---When all your likes can be traced back to you of course it affects your 00:22:51.630 --> 00:22:56.320 behaviour. Of couse it's usually the case that sometimes you think: If you like this 00:22:56.320 --> 00:23:01.600 thing or if you don't, it would have some social repressions. 00:23:01.600 --> 00:23:07.610 ---But if you look throughout history, the Reformation, the gay rights movements all 00:23:07.610 --> 00:23:13.480 these movements where illegal in some way. If not by law, stricktly, then by culture. 00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:18.710 And if we'd this kind of mass surveillance would we have had this movements? 00:23:18.710 --> 00:23:23.279 ---If all laws were absolutes, then we would never have progressed to the point 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:27.820 where women had equal rights because women had to break the laws. That said: "You 00:23:27.820 --> 00:23:32.750 can't have equal rights". Black people in America had to break the laws that said 00:23:32.750 --> 00:23:40.690 they could not have equal rights. And there's common thread here. You know a lot 00:23:40.690 --> 00:23:47.950 of our laws historically have had the harshest effect on the most vulnerable in 00:23:47.950 --> 00:23:51.280 society. Kurz: The components of whomever has 00:23:51.280 --> 00:23:56.510 something to hide has to blame only themselves only emerged in recent years. 00:23:56.510 --> 00:24:03.600 In particular, the former CEO of Google Eric Smith is known for that of course, he 00:24:03.600 --> 00:24:05.480 certyinly said that. "If you have something that you don't want 00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:09.930 anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be dooing it on the first place. " But this 00:24:09.930 --> 00:24:16.420 is so hostile to humans that is almost funny. You could think it is satire. A lot 00:24:16.420 --> 00:24:19.320 of people can't help that they have something to hide in a society, that is 00:24:19.320 --> 00:24:24.190 unjust. *wieder Eric Shmid" "But if you really need that kind of privacy, the 00:24:24.190 --> 00:24:36.470 reallity is that search changes including google to retain that information for some 00:24:36.470 --> 00:24:46.460 time. " ---Big corporations that have this 00:24:46.460 --> 00:24:51.220 business model of people farming are interested in you becaurse you are the row 00:24:51.220 --> 00:24:55.000 materials. Right. Your Infromation is row materials. What they do is they process 00:24:55.000 --> 00:25:00.450 that to build a profile of you. And that's where the real value is. Because if I know 00:25:00.450 --> 00:25:06.030 enough about you, if I as much information about you that I can build a very 00:25:06.030 --> 00:25:14.020 lifelike, constantly evolving picture of you, a s simpulation of you. That's very 00:25:14.020 --> 00:25:16.980 vulnerable. ---The economy of the net is predicting 00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:23.159 human behaviour, so that eyeballls can be delivered to advertising and that's 00:25:23.159 --> 00:25:26.610 targeting advertising. ---The system in ways is set up for them 00:25:26.610 --> 00:25:32.169 to make money and sell our lettle bits of data, our interests, our demographics for 00:25:32.169 --> 00:25:36.559 other people and for advertisers to be able to sell things. These companies know 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:40.220 more about us than we know about ourselves. Right now we're feeding the 00:25:40.220 --> 00:25:43.490 beast. And right now, there's very little oversight. 00:25:43.490 --> 00:25:49.190 ---It has to reach one person, the same ad at particular time, if at 3:00 p.m. you 00:25:49.190 --> 00:25:55.169 buy the soda you get your lunch. How about 2:55pm you'll get an ad about a discount 00:25:55.169 --> 00:26:01.640 about a pizza place next door or a salad place. Where had exactly the soda comes. 00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:04.370 So that's what targeted advertising is. ---It is true, it is convinient. You know, 00:26:04.370 --> 00:26:08.610 I always laugh every time I'm on a site. I'm looking at, let's say, a sweater I 00:26:08.610 --> 00:26:12.080 want to buy. And then I move over to another site and it advertising for that 00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:16.350 same sweater. It pops up and reminds me how much I want it. It's both convinient 00:26:16.350 --> 00:26:19.950 and annoying. ---It's a pity that some of the greatest 00:26:19.950 --> 00:26:25.440 minds in our century are only wondering how to make you look advertising. And 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:30.590 that's where the surveillance economy beginns, I will say, and not just ends. 00:26:30.590 --> 00:26:36.370 ---To a lot of people that may seem much less harmful. Bur the fact that they're 00:26:36.370 --> 00:26:41.130 capturing this date means that data exists and we don't who they might share it with. 00:26:41.130 --> 00:26:45.409 ---There is whole new business now, you know, data brokers who drew upon, you 00:26:45.409 --> 00:26:50.180 know, thousands of data points and create client profiles to sell to companies. Now, 00:26:50.180 --> 00:26:53.929 you don't really know what happens with this kind of things. So it is hard to 00:26:53.929 --> 00:26:59.870 tell, what the implications are until it is too late. Until it happens. 00:26:59.870 --> 00:27:03.850 ---The Stasi compared to Google or Facebook, where amateurs, the Stasi 00:27:03.850 --> 00:27:10.570 actually had to use people to surcail you to spy on you. That was expensive. It was 00:27:10.570 --> 00:27:16.250 time consuming. They had to pick targets. It was very expensive for them to have all 00:27:16.250 --> 00:27:21.320 of these people spying on you. Facebook and Google don't have to do that. They use 00:27:21.320 --> 00:27:26.169 Algorithms, that's the mass in mass surveillance. The fact that it is so 00:27:26.169 --> 00:27:32.200 cheap, so convenient to spy on so many people. And it's not a conspiracy theory. 00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:36.179 You don't need conspiracies when you have the simplicity of business models. 00:27:36.179 --> 00:27:42.570 ---When we talk about algorithms, we actually talk about logic. When you want, 00:27:42.570 --> 00:27:48.669 for example, buy a book on Amazon. You have always seen a few other suggestions. 00:27:48.669 --> 00:27:54.910 These suggestions are produced for you based on the history of your preferences, 00:27:54.910 --> 00:28:00.280 the history of your searches. ---They learn by making mistakes. And the 00:28:00.280 --> 00:28:07.080 thing is, that's fine if it's like selling dog feed. But it's about predictive 00:28:07.080 --> 00:28:12.480 pollicing and about creating a matrix where you see which individuals are 00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:17.130 threatening, that's not ok for me. You know, that has to be limits. There has to 00:28:17.130 --> 00:28:22.360 be lines. And these are all the dynamics that are coming from the bottom up. These 00:28:22.360 --> 00:28:26.100 are the discussions that need to be had, but they need to be had with all actors. 00:28:26.100 --> 00:28:31.190 It's can't just be a an echo chamber. You don't talk to the some people who agree 00:28:31.190 --> 00:28:36.240 with you. ---So one consequence of this would be 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:42.690 many minorities or many people who have minority views would be silenced. And we 00:28:42.690 --> 00:28:47.400 always know that when a minority view is silenced, it would empower them in a way 00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:57.250 and it would radicalize them in the long run. This is one aspect. The other is that 00:28:57.250 --> 00:29:00.640 you would never be challenged by anyone, who disagrees with you. 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:07.409 ---We have to understand that our data is not exhaust. Our data is not oil. Data is 00:29:07.409 --> 00:29:13.460 people. You maybe not doing anything wrong today, but maybe three governments from 00:29:13.460 --> 00:29:19.151 now when they pass a certain law, what you have done today might be illegal, for 00:29:19.151 --> 00:29:24.530 example, and governments that keep that data can look back over 10, 20 years and 00:29:24.530 --> 00:29:33.289 maybe start prosecuting. ---When everything we buy, everything we 00:29:33.289 --> 00:29:43.679 read, even the people we meet and date is determined by this algorithms, I think the 00:29:43.679 --> 00:29:49.581 amount of power that they exert on the society and individuals in this society is 00:29:49.581 --> 00:29:56.510 more than the state to the some degree. And so there I think representatives 00:29:56.510 --> 00:30:03.679 democracy have the duty to push the government to open up these private 00:30:03.679 --> 00:30:12.850 entities, to at least expose to some degree how much control they exert. 00:30:12.850 --> 00:30:14.510 ---If you adopt the technological perspective and realize that technology 00:30:14.510 --> 00:30:19.059 will slip into our lives much more than is already the case: Technically into our 00:30:19.059 --> 00:30:22.620 bodies, our clothes, into devices that we sit in an we're wearing, in all sorts of 00:30:22.620 --> 00:30:32.220 areas of our coexistence and working life, then that's definitely the wrong way to 00:30:32.220 --> 00:30:35.360 go. Because it leads to a total surveillance. And if you think about it 00:30:35.360 --> 00:31:30.570 for a few minutes, you will realize that the dichotomy is between control & 00:31:30.570 --> 00:31:42.130 freedom. And a fully controlled society cannot be free. 00:31:42.130 --> 00:31:43.130 *post film music* [Filler please remove in amara] 00:31:43.130 --> 00:31:52.630 Herald: Hello and welcome back from the movie and know I welcome also our 00:31:52.630 --> 00:32:09.110 producer. And. It was very. Oh, yeah, showing very good. What information can do 00:32:09.110 --> 00:32:16.190 and what could be done with information, I give some people a bit more time to ask 00:32:16.190 --> 00:32:27.779 more questions. And in the meantime, I could ask, Oh, well, this is moving. Those 00:32:27.779 --> 00:32:37.539 of these remote to your home was not shown today for the first time. So what would 00:32:37.539 --> 00:32:46.120 you do different or what you think has maybe changed in the meanwhile since you 00:32:46.120 --> 00:32:50.840 made it? pandemonium: What I would change is I 00:32:50.840 --> 00:32:59.890 would definitely try much harder to secure funding to just simply make a better movie 00:32:59.890 --> 00:33:05.440 and have more time and edited faster because the editing process, because I had 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:12.429 to work on the side was quite long. And this film, and the way it stands now, was 00:33:12.429 --> 00:33:20.320 essentially only funded by a few very great people who supported me on Patreon 00:33:20.320 --> 00:33:26.539 and helped me with some of their private money, essentially so that it was 00:33:26.539 --> 00:33:30.280 essentially an almost no budget production. So I would definitely change 00:33:30.280 --> 00:33:36.730 that. But documentary seen in Germany being what it is, it's very hard to secure 00:33:36.730 --> 00:33:41.960 money if you're not attached to a TV station or if you don't have a name yet. 00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:47.100 And since I didn't have a name, but I still want to make the movie, I made the 00:33:47.100 --> 00:33:52.730 movie. I am still very happy with the general direction of it. But of course, 00:33:52.730 --> 00:34:00.860 since that was mainly shot in 2015 and 2016, some of the newer developments in 00:34:00.860 --> 00:34:10.800 terms of especially biometric mass surveillance and police. Especially in the 00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:18.020 U.S., the way police uses body cams, etc. is not really reflected. But I still think 00:34:18.020 --> 00:34:25.370 that the I would still go with the whole angle on colonialism and racism that is 00:34:25.370 --> 00:34:30.889 deeply entrenched in the discussions around surveillance and privacy. And we 00:34:30.889 --> 00:34:36.220 can see that in discussions about shutting down Telegram in Germany at the moment 00:34:36.220 --> 00:34:42.050 because right wing groups the there we see it in discussions about how to deal with 00:34:42.050 --> 00:34:48.560 hate speech online on Facebook or the Metaverse. And it's going to be called 00:34:48.560 --> 00:34:53.900 Zoom. And all of these things are already kind of in the movie, but I would have 00:34:53.900 --> 00:35:00.880 probably focused a bit more on them if I'd known. Six years ago what would happen and 00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:06.920 if I would make it now? But generally, the direction I would choose the same. 00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:18.990 Herald: Yeah, it's quite fascinating. So it was nearly no budget was so low, and it 00:35:18.990 --> 00:35:28.890 was also an interesting point to entertain now, because in principle, I understood 00:35:28.890 --> 00:35:35.840 the ideas that body cams should create actually a means of protecting people 00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:42.190 against police and not the other way around as it happens sometimes. 00:35:42.190 --> 00:35:47.930 pandemonium: So there are definitely and the problem with especially body cams or 00:35:47.930 --> 00:35:55.200 also other of other means of surveillance is that a video is always thought to be an 00:35:55.200 --> 00:36:01.930 objective recording of the reality. But of course, it always depends on the angle and 00:36:01.930 --> 00:36:08.010 cases of body cams, quite literally the angle, but also data interpretation. And 00:36:08.010 --> 00:36:14.630 since humans are always full of biases and always full of presumptions about who 00:36:14.630 --> 00:36:21.380 might be in the right and who might be in the wrong, these imagery, images or videos 00:36:21.380 --> 00:36:25.180 tend to never, even if they would be showing the objective truth, they're 00:36:25.180 --> 00:36:31.990 barely ever interpret it that way. And it's exactly the same with any sort of 00:36:31.990 --> 00:36:38.890 film or photography that we're doing. I mean, for this movie, I assembled a ton of 00:36:38.890 --> 00:36:42.550 interviews and there were very long there were several hours long in many cases, and 00:36:42.550 --> 00:36:49.160 I could added probably 100 different versions of this movie going essentially 00:36:49.160 --> 00:36:58.569 almost opposite directions, exactly the same material. It shows very strongly how 00:36:58.569 --> 00:37:05.869 important it is, that at the end of the day we overcome our biosies as judges, as 00:37:05.869 --> 00:37:12.220 police people, as people walking on the street an trying to overcome any sort of 00:37:12.220 --> 00:37:22.480 surveillance on this impossible on the technical level, is always connected with 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:32.160 the way, we understand world. Herald: Yeah, this is, I also remember a 00:37:32.160 --> 00:37:45.110 talk several years ago , it was about one of "freiheit statt Angst" Demonstrations 00:37:45.110 --> 00:37:54.160 in Berlin. And there was also a case, where the term was established, the guy 00:37:54.160 --> 00:38:02.849 with a t-shirt got beaten by police and it was very hard to assemble different videos 00:38:02.849 --> 00:38:11.410 and to tell the whole story, what had happened. You should be able to find that, 00:38:11.410 --> 00:38:18.290 there was a talk , where this was constructed somehow. 00:38:18.290 --> 00:38:23.079 Producer: I will definitely looked that up. 00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:31.250 Herald. But I'm not sure about the year anymore but you will find it. Now we have 00:38:31.250 --> 00:38:38.040 a real question from the audience. The first is, can I find the movie anywhere 00:38:38.040 --> 00:38:42.790 and show it to somebody else? Producer: Yes. It is on YouTube. *laugh* 00:38:42.790 --> 00:38:46.099 Herald: Ok. Producer: You can literally find it by 00:38:46.099 --> 00:38:54.540 typing my name, which is Theresia Reinhold. And you can find it. 00:38:54.540 --> 00:39:07.590 Herald. ok. So, its very good. So, I hope they are happy. Is the 21. Century 00:39:07.590 --> 00:39:12.980 attention span for non-technical friend with biggest claim. I don't get the 00:39:12.980 --> 00:39:35.650 questions. The Idea is: Is there a way of explaining the non technical people, what 00:39:35.650 --> 00:39:40.690 is the problem with "I do not have nothing to hide". 00:39:40.690 --> 00:39:48.070 Producer: If there is anything in your life, where you are happy, no one is 00:39:48.070 --> 00:39:52.760 watching you doing, whether it is a Century video, that a lot of people don't 00:39:52.760 --> 00:40:01.050 know, that you are watching. Or singing in the shower or anything, then that is your 00:40:01.050 --> 00:40:13.109 absolute right that you are not. No one is judging you on them, and that's the same 00:40:13.109 --> 00:40:19.290 with mass surveillance and surfing online or walking down the street. We have a very 00:40:19.290 --> 00:40:26.630 basic comfort zone, should be protected. Know we have a human right to privacy and 00:40:26.630 --> 00:40:31.130 whether it's in a technical room or in an analog room, like being in a shopping mall 00:40:31.130 --> 00:40:34.660 and picking up, I don't know whatever you don't want other people to know that 00:40:34.660 --> 00:40:40.390 you're buying. You should have the right to do that in private and not have it be 00:40:40.390 --> 00:40:45.500 known to other people. And when we are surfing the internet, everything we do is 00:40:45.500 --> 00:40:54.280 constantly analyzed and watched in real time and you notice our movements online 00:40:54.280 --> 00:41:00.119 are sold to the highest bidder and as a whole, massive advertising industry behind 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:08.609 it. And that's just immoral because humans should have always the ability to share 00:41:08.609 --> 00:41:15.532 only what they want to share. That's how I try to explain it to non tech people. And 00:41:15.532 --> 00:41:17.550 if they're not tech, people from the former east, is just here to move to Stasi 00:41:17.550 --> 00:41:20.620 and they know exactly what you're talking about. 00:41:20.620 --> 00:41:27.109 Herald: Yes, thanks for this explanation again. And I think also what is important, 00:41:27.109 --> 00:41:34.220 what was also mentioned in the movie is the thing with that is and speak, since it 00:41:34.220 --> 00:41:41.420 can be stored now that it's so that future can haunt your history. Kind of. 00:41:41.420 --> 00:41:47.510 pandemonium. Yeah. Herald: And actually, the question was 00:41:47.510 --> 00:41:58.400 now be more precise. And actually, it was not what I asked you *Laughs*. Actually is 00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:06.880 the question of whether there is or there could be a short teaser that people could 00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:12.260 send to your friends to two of their friends to to watch the whole movie? 00:42:12.260 --> 00:42:15.630 *laughs* Reinhold: Oh yes, there is. And that is 00:42:15.630 --> 00:42:20.119 also on YouTube and on Vimeo. OK, sorry. Yes. *Laugh* 00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:27.320 Herald: Well, I also didn't get it from the question. So OK, so people will find 00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:34.410 it very good. So then I guess we are through with the questions, and I thank 00:42:34.410 --> 00:42:46.760 you again for your nice movie and for being here. Yeah, and. Then this talk is 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:57.010 over here. Chaos zone a TV comes back to you at four p.m. with the talk "tales from 00:42:57.010 --> 00:43:05.170 the quantum industry" until then? Oh yeah. Which some other streams go to the world 00:43:05.170 --> 00:43:08.329 or. Have some lunch. 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