1 00:00:08,670 --> 00:00:09,670 *RC3 preroll music* [Filler please remove in amara] 2 00:00:09,670 --> 00:00:15,599 Herald: Welcome back on the channel, of Chaos zone TV. Now we have an English 3 00:00:15,599 --> 00:00:23,930 speaking contribution. And for that, I welcome pandemonium, who is a historian 4 00:00:23,930 --> 00:00:33,290 and documentary film maker, and therefore we will also not have a normal talk, but 5 00:00:33,290 --> 00:00:40,899 we will see the documentary information. What are they looking at? A documentary on 6 00:00:40,899 --> 00:00:49,500 privacy. And afterwards, we can all talk about the film, so feel free to post your 7 00:00:49,500 --> 00:00:56,739 questions and we can discuss them. Let's enjoy the film. 8 00:00:56,739 --> 00:01:01,150 *film started* [Filler please remove in amara] 9 00:01:01,150 --> 00:01:03,060 ---Because the great promise of the internet is freedom. Freedom of 10 00:01:03,060 --> 00:01:07,780 expression, freedom of organization, freedom of assembly. These are really seen 11 00:01:07,780 --> 00:01:10,350 as underpinning rights of what we see as democratic values. 12 00:01:10,350 --> 00:01:12,330 ---Just because you have safety does not mean that you cannot have freedom. Just 13 00:01:12,330 --> 00:01:15,330 because you have freedom does not mean you cannot have safety. 14 00:01:15,330 --> 00:01:24,100 ---Why is the reaction to doubt it rather than to assume that it's true and act 15 00:01:24,100 --> 00:01:27,890 accordingly? ---We need to be able to break those laws 16 00:01:27,890 --> 00:01:29,610 that are unjust. ---Privacy is an essence, becoming a de 17 00:01:29,610 --> 00:01:30,610 facto crime. That is somehow you are hiding something. 18 00:01:30,610 --> 00:01:31,610 ---So just to be sure let's have no privacy. 19 00:01:31,610 --> 00:01:32,610 "Information, what are they looking at? A film by Theresia Reinhold. 20 00:01:32,610 --> 00:01:34,619 "The Internet is [...] everywhere, but we only see it in the glimpses. The internet 21 00:01:34,619 --> 00:02:16,510 is like the wholy ghost: it makes itself knowable to us by taking possession of the 22 00:02:16,510 --> 00:02:17,510 pixels on our screens to manifest sites and apps and email, but its essence is 23 00:02:17,510 --> 00:02:18,510 always elsewhere. ---Before the Internet came about, 24 00:02:18,510 --> 00:02:25,190 communication was generally one editor to many, many readers. But now it's peer to 25 00:02:25,190 --> 00:02:30,900 peer. So, you know, at a touch of a button people have an opportunity to reach 26 00:02:30,900 --> 00:02:34,000 millions of people. That's revolutionizing the way we communicate. 27 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,280 ---One of the things that Facebook and to a lesser degree Twitter allowed people to 28 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:43,800 do is be able to see that they weren't alone. And it was able to create a 29 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:49,530 critical mass. And I think that's a very important role that social media took on. 30 00:02:49,530 --> 00:02:53,239 It was able to show people a very easy way in people's Facebook feeds: "Oh, wow. Look 31 00:02:53,239 --> 00:02:57,210 at Tahrir Square, there's people out there in Bahrain, in Pearl Square." What people 32 00:02:57,210 --> 00:03:02,099 could feel before walking out their door into real life action, that they could see 33 00:03:02,099 --> 00:03:07,220 that they are not isolated in their desire for some sort of change. 34 00:03:07,220 --> 00:03:12,440 ---The great promise of the internet is freedom where the minds without fear and 35 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:18,340 the head is held high. And the knowledge is free. Because the promise was: This 36 00:03:18,340 --> 00:03:22,400 will be the great equalizer. ---Before the social web, before the Web 37 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:29,280 2.0, anything you were doing was kind of anonymous. By the very concept of 38 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:36,720 anonymity you were able to discuss things that would probably be not according to 39 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:42,030 dominance themes or the dominant trends of values of your own society. 40 00:03:42,030 --> 00:03:50,550 ---I don't find this discussion about how to deal with the assertion "I have nothing 41 00:03:50,550 --> 00:03:59,849 to hide" boring, even after many years. Because this sentence is very short, but 42 00:03:59,849 --> 00:04:07,099 very perfidious. The speaker, who hurls the sentence "I have nothing to hide" at 43 00:04:07,099 --> 00:04:13,140 me, not only says something about themselves, but also something about me. 44 00:04:13,140 --> 00:04:17,640 Because this sentence "I have nothing to hide" also has the unspoken component of 45 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:26,930 "You don't either, do you?" In this respect, I think this sentence lacks 46 00:04:26,930 --> 00:04:30,160 solidarity, because at the same time one does not want to work to ensure that the 47 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,699 other, who perhaps has something to hide, is able to do so. 48 00:04:32,699 --> 00:04:37,741 ---One of the things about privacy is that it's not always about you. It's about the 49 00:04:37,741 --> 00:04:41,620 people in our networks. And so, for example, I have a lot of friends who are 50 00:04:41,620 --> 00:04:46,180 from Syria. People that I have met in other places in the world, not necessary 51 00:04:46,180 --> 00:04:51,360 refugees. People who lived abroad for a while, but those people are at risk all 52 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:56,020 the time. Both in their home country and often in their host countries as well. And 53 00:04:56,020 --> 00:05:00,680 so, I might say that I have nothing to hide. I might say that there's no reason 54 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,979 that I need to keep myself safe. But if you've got any more like that in a 55 00:05:04,979 --> 00:05:10,780 network, any activists, any people from countries like that, it's thinking about 56 00:05:10,780 --> 00:05:14,970 privacy and thinking about security means thinking about keeping those people safe, 57 00:05:14,970 --> 00:05:17,760 too. Privacy is important, because if think of 58 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:23,690 the alternative, if everything is public, if the norm is public, then anything that 59 00:05:23,690 --> 00:05:29,471 you want to keep to yourself has an association or guild attached. And that 60 00:05:29,471 --> 00:05:33,804 should not be the world that we create. That's a chilling effect. It's a chilling 61 00:05:33,804 --> 00:05:37,980 effect on our freedoms. It's a chilling effect on democracy. 62 00:05:37,980 --> 00:05:41,450 "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with this privacy, family, 63 00:05:41,450 --> 00:05:44,920 home or correspondence, for the attacks upon his honor and reputation. Everyone 64 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,970 has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks. 65 00:05:48,970 --> 00:05:55,610 ---To me, human rights are something which has been put to place to guarantee the 66 00:05:55,610 --> 00:06:00,370 freedoms of every single person in the world. They're supposed to be universal, 67 00:06:00,370 --> 00:06:05,710 indivisible. Having in the eyes of this systems. 68 00:06:05,710 --> 00:06:09,940 ---They're collecting data and metadata about hundreds of thousands, millions of 69 00:06:09,940 --> 00:06:14,669 people. And some of that data will never be looked at. That's a fact. We know that. 70 00:06:14,669 --> 00:06:19,710 But at the same time, assuming that just because you're not involved in activism or 71 00:06:19,710 --> 00:06:24,139 you're not well known that you're not going to be a target at some point, I 72 00:06:24,139 --> 00:06:28,680 think, that is what can be really harmful to us. Right now you may not be under any 73 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:33,580 threat at all, but your friends might be, your family might be or you might be in 74 00:06:33,580 --> 00:06:37,080 the future. And so that's why we need to think about it this way, not because we're 75 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:41,400 going to be snatched out of our homes in the middle of the night now. But because 76 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,509 this data and this metadata lasts for a long time. 77 00:06:45,509 --> 00:06:53,930 ---My observation is what we are experiencing right now is that the private 78 00:06:53,930 --> 00:07:05,781 space that should be and remain private in the digital world is slowly beginning to 79 00:07:05,781 --> 00:07:13,250 erode. It is becoming permeable, and not just factual. Factually, of course, but 80 00:07:13,250 --> 00:07:21,700 not only factually, but also in perception. I imagine the digital world as 81 00:07:21,700 --> 00:07:31,500 a panoptical. This is the ring-shaped building designed by Jeremy Benthem. In 82 00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:38,120 the ring the prisoners are accommodated in the individual cell, and in the middle 83 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:47,960 there is a watchtower. And there is a guard sitting there. And this guard, who 84 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:57,860 can observe and supervise the prisoners in the cells around him all the time. The 85 00:07:57,860 --> 00:08:04,790 trick is that the prisoners cannot know if they are being watched. They only see the 86 00:08:04,790 --> 00:08:10,620 tower, but they don't see the warden. But they know very well that they could be 87 00:08:10,620 --> 00:08:16,360 watched permanently at any time. And this fact exerts a changing decisive effect. 88 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:24,229 ---I think surveillance is a technology of governmentality. It's a bio political 89 00:08:24,229 --> 00:08:30,789 technology. It's there to control and manage populations. It's really propelled 90 00:08:30,789 --> 00:08:38,280 by state power and the power of entities that are glued in that cohere around the 91 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:45,780 state, right? So it is there as a form of population management and control. So you 92 00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:51,279 have to convince people that it's in their interest and its like: Every man for 93 00:08:51,279 --> 00:08:55,950 himself and everyone is out to get everyone. 94 00:08:55,950 --> 00:09:12,870 *relaying music is plays* [Filler please remove in amara] 95 00:09:12,870 --> 00:09:21,430 ---I take my cue from a former general counsel of the NSA, Suart Baker, who said 96 00:09:21,430 --> 00:09:27,240 on this question: Meta-Data absolutely tells you everything about somebodies 97 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,990 life. If you have enough Meta-Data you don't really need content. It is sort of 98 00:09:31,990 --> 00:09:35,370 embarrassing, how predictable we are as human beings. 99 00:09:35,370 --> 00:09:41,301 ---So let's say that you make a phone one night, you call up a suicide hotline, for 100 00:09:41,301 --> 00:09:46,490 example, you're feeling down, you call that hotline and then a few hours later 101 00:09:46,490 --> 00:09:52,380 maybe you call a friend. A few hours later you call a doctor, you send an email and 102 00:09:52,380 --> 00:09:57,690 so on so forth. Now, the contents of that of those calls and those e-mails are not 103 00:09:57,690 --> 00:10:02,150 necessarily collected. What's being collected is the time of the call and the 104 00:10:02,150 --> 00:10:06,800 place that you called. And so sometimes in events like that, those different pieces 105 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,160 of metadata can be linked together to profile someone. 106 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,920 ---David's description of what you can do with metadata, and quoting a mutual friend 107 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:21,430 Stewart Baker, is absolutely correct. We kill people based on Meta-Data. But that 108 00:10:21,430 --> 00:10:30,560 is not what we do with this Meta-Data. Mayor Denett: Thankfully. Wow, I was 109 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:32,760 working up a sweat there *Mayor laughs* for a second. 110 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,839 ---You know, the impetus for governments for conducting this kind of surveillance 111 00:10:37,839 --> 00:10:42,950 is often at least in rhetoric go to after terrorists. And obviously, we don't want 112 00:10:42,950 --> 00:10:48,430 terrorism. And so that justification resonates with most of the public. But I 113 00:10:48,430 --> 00:10:52,019 think that there's a couple problems with it. The first is that they haven't 114 00:10:52,019 --> 00:10:55,930 demonstrated to us that surveillance actually works in stopping terrorist 115 00:10:55,930 --> 00:11:00,830 attacks. We haven't seen it work yet. It didn't work in Paris. It didn't work in 116 00:11:00,830 --> 00:11:05,170 Boston. t didn't work elsewhere. So that's one part of it. But then I think the other 117 00:11:05,170 --> 00:11:10,389 part of it is that we spend billions of dollars on surveillance and on war, but 118 00:11:10,389 --> 00:11:13,280 spend very little money on addressing the root causes of terrorism. 119 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,740 ---I consider this debate security versus freedom to be a bugaboo. Because these 120 00:11:17,740 --> 00:11:22,209 values are not mutually exclusive. I'm not buying into this propaganda anymore. Many 121 00:11:22,209 --> 00:11:28,740 of the measures we have endured in the last ten years have not led to more 122 00:11:28,740 --> 00:11:34,180 security, in terms of state-imposed surveillance. And this is one reason why I 123 00:11:34,180 --> 00:11:42,480 don't want to continue this debate about whether we should sacrifice freedom for 124 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:47,381 more security. ---I think power is concealed in the whole 125 00:11:47,381 --> 00:11:53,130 discourse around surveillance, and the way its concealed is through this 126 00:11:53,130 --> 00:12:00,710 legitimization that it's in your interest that it keeps you safe. But there have 127 00:12:00,710 --> 00:12:07,470 been many instances where citizens groups have actually fought against that kind of 128 00:12:07,470 --> 00:12:11,450 surveillance. And I think there is also sort of a mystique around *music starts* 129 00:12:11,450 --> 00:12:15,690 the technology of surveillance. There is the whole sort of like this notion that, 130 00:12:15,690 --> 00:12:20,280 ah, because it's a technology and it's designed to do this. It's actually 131 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:25,589 working. But all of this is a concealment of power relations because who can surveil 132 00:12:25,589 --> 00:12:31,720 who? Is the issue, right? ---But it isn't the majority of the 133 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:38,190 English population here to get stopped and searched. It's non-white people. It is not 134 00:12:38,190 --> 00:12:42,519 the majority of non-white people who get approached to inform on the community. 135 00:12:42,519 --> 00:12:47,649 It's Muslim communities. ---The surveillance that one does on the 136 00:12:47,649 --> 00:12:55,540 other. So as airport, it's the other passengers that say, oh, so-and-so is 137 00:12:55,540 --> 00:13:03,240 speaking in Arabic. And therefore, that person becomes the subject, the target 138 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,380 that hyper-surveillance. So it's the kind of surveillances that are being exercised 139 00:13:08,380 --> 00:13:15,810 by each of us on the other. Because of this culture of fear that has been 140 00:13:15,810 --> 00:13:23,430 nourished on a way and that's mushrooming all around us. And these are fears, I 141 00:13:23,430 --> 00:13:27,600 think, go anywhere from the most concrete to the most vague. 142 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:32,680 ---In this way, I think this is another way of creating a semblance of control 143 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:38,200 where this identity is very easily visible. It's very easily targeted and 144 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,620 it's very easily defined. ---For me, this political discussion is 145 00:13:41,620 --> 00:13:51,639 purely based on fear in which the fear of people, which is justified, are exploited. 146 00:13:51,639 --> 00:13:58,750 And where racist stereotypes are being repeated. I think it extremely dangerous 147 00:13:58,750 --> 00:14:08,089 to give in to this more and more, also because I believe that it reinforces 148 00:14:08,089 --> 00:14:13,269 negative instincts in people. Exclusion, but also racial profiling. 149 00:14:13,269 --> 00:14:17,529 Kurz: It's inherently disentranchising, it's disempowering and it's isolating. 150 00:14:17,529 --> 00:14:22,990 When you feel you're being treated as a different person to the rest of the 151 00:14:22,990 --> 00:14:27,220 population, that's when measures like surveillance, things that are enabled by 152 00:14:27,220 --> 00:14:37,710 technology really hit home. And cause you to sort of change that way you feel as a 153 00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:40,160 subject. Because at the end of the day, you are subjective of a government. 154 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:46,730 ---How is it that these mass surveillance programs have been kept secret for years 155 00:14:46,730 --> 00:14:52,220 when they are supposed to be so meaningful and effective? Why didn't anyone publicly 156 00:14:52,220 --> 00:14:57,710 justify it? Then why was it all secretly justified by secret courts with secret 157 00:14:57,710 --> 00:15:02,410 court rulings? Why, after the Snowden publications began, did the Commission of 158 00:15:02,410 --> 00:15:06,530 intelligent Agents, which specifically appointed Obama com to the conclusion that 159 00:15:06,530 --> 00:15:14,550 not a single --zero --- of this cases of terror or attempted terrorist attacks has 160 00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:20,010 been partially resolved by these giant telecommunications metadata? In trying to 161 00:15:20,010 --> 00:15:26,029 stop something from happening before it happens, they can put in a measure and 162 00:15:26,029 --> 00:15:30,630 that thing might not happen. But they don't know it that measure stopped that 163 00:15:30,630 --> 00:15:34,959 thing from happening, because that thing never happened. It's hard to measure. You 164 00:15:34,959 --> 00:15:38,690 can't measure it. And you can't say with certainty thst because of this measure 165 00:15:38,690 --> 00:15:47,240 that that didn't happen. But after 9/11, after the catastrophic level of attack, it 166 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:54,620 put decision makers into this impossible position where citizens where scared. They 167 00:15:54,620 --> 00:16:01,209 needed to do something. One part of that is trying to screen everybody objectively 168 00:16:01,209 --> 00:16:07,220 and have that sort of panoptical surveillance. Saying that: "No, no. We can 169 00:16:07,220 --> 00:16:13,709 see everything. Don't worry. We have the haystack. We just need to find the needle. 170 00:16:13,709 --> 00:16:17,670 But then obviously, they need ways to target that. You can see it most clearly 171 00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:22,930 over here. You got leaflets through your door a few years ago, basically saying 172 00:16:22,930 --> 00:16:29,069 that if you've seen anything suspicious, call this hotline. It listed things like 173 00:16:29,069 --> 00:16:38,220 the neighbor who goes away on holiday many times a year or, another neighbor whose 174 00:16:38,220 --> 00:16:44,459 curtains are always drawn. It just changes the way you look at society and you look 175 00:16:44,459 --> 00:16:51,430 at yourself. And it shifts the presumption of Innocence to a presumption of guilt 176 00:16:51,430 --> 00:16:55,769 already. ---When is someone a potential suicide 177 00:16:55,769 --> 00:17:07,910 bomber? This is where the problem begins. When they wear an explosive belt and holds 178 00:17:07,910 --> 00:17:17,309 the tiger in their hands? Or when they order the building blocks for an explosive 179 00:17:17,309 --> 00:17:29,360 belt online? Or when they informed themselves about how to build an explosive 180 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:38,250 vest? When can the state legally intervene? For me it is about the central 181 00:17:38,250 --> 00:17:45,600 very problematic question whether someone who very problematic question whether 182 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:55,150 someone who has been identified as a potential danger or a potential terrorist, 183 00:17:55,150 --> 00:18:04,250 without being a terrorist, if someone like that can then be legally surveilled or 184 00:18:04,250 --> 00:18:14,520 even arrested? That means if certain people by potentially posing a concrete 185 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:20,429 danger ot society can be stripped of, their fundamental human rights? 186 00:18:20,429 --> 00:18:22,990 ---We face am unprecedented threat which will last 187 00:18:22,990 --> 00:18:25,740 Two days after the attacks in Brüssel on the 22.03.2016 Jean Claude Juncker and the 188 00:18:25,740 --> 00:18:33,299 french prime minister held a join pres conference. But we also believe that we 189 00:18:33,299 --> 00:18:37,070 need to be a union of security. In it Juncker called to the ministers to accept 190 00:18:37,070 --> 00:18:41,690 a proposal by the commision for the propection of the EU. 191 00:18:41,690 --> 00:18:48,010 ---For over 15 years now we have observed a big populist push to adopt even more 192 00:18:48,010 --> 00:18:52,200 surveillance measures. With the attacks of the past years, there was the opportunity 193 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:57,940 to pass even more. We have this proposal for a new directive whose contents a 194 00:18:57,940 --> 00:19:03,030 purely based on ideology. The Text of the law passed in summary 195 00:19:03,030 --> 00:19:07,140 proceedings was adopteed as an anti- terrorism directive. Green Member of 196 00:19:07,140 --> 00:19:15,210 Parlament Jan Phillipp Albrecht wrote in an Statement to Netzpolitik.org: "What the 197 00:19:15,210 --> 00:19:17,980 Directive defines as Terrorism could be used by governments to criminalize 198 00:19:17,980 --> 00:19:23,570 political action or political protest". ---These type of laws actually are neutral 199 00:19:23,570 --> 00:19:26,400 in principle. In praxis, they are very discrimantory. If you talk to any 200 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,950 politician right now of the EU level or at the national or local level they will tell 201 00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:33,940 you that most likely this people are Muslims. 202 00:19:33,940 --> 00:19:37,860 ---Historically and Philosophically this problem is well known to us. We always 203 00:19:37,860 --> 00:19:46,110 tend to put everithing which is unpleasant or eene to us, to the horizon. "This is 204 00:19:46,110 --> 00:19:59,169 strange ti us. It is done by others, not by us." And when one of us does it thent 205 00:19:59,169 --> 00:20:05,102 they have to be distributed. ---And this is Edward Said's point of view 206 00:20:05,102 --> 00:20:12,690 that the western seit comes to define itself in relation to this eastern other. 207 00:20:12,690 --> 00:20:18,230 So everything that the West was, the East was'nt and everything that the East was, 208 00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:22,030 the West wasn't. Ans so the East became this province of emotionality, 209 00:20:22,030 --> 00:20:28,080 irrationality. And the West became the source of reason, everything controlled 210 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:33,210 and contained and so forth. And it is this dichotomy that continues to play itself 211 00:20:33,210 --> 00:20:36,640 out. ---Terrorism emerged as a term for the 212 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:43,620 first time in context of the French Revolution. The Jacobins who under 213 00:20:43,620 --> 00:20:49,080 Rebesprierre were the reign of terror, those where the first Terrorists, that's 214 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:54,620 what they called. The first terrorism was the terrorism of the state and of course 215 00:20:54,620 --> 00:20:58,970 this also included the systematic monitoring of Conterrevoliners. 216 00:20:58,970 --> 00:21:07,370 ---Where the proposal of the directive says that it complies with human rights. 217 00:21:07,370 --> 00:21:10,320 It actually does not because they want to increase surveillance measures in order 218 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,830 for the population to feel safer. However, we've seen that more repressive measure do 219 00:21:14,830 --> 00:21:18,440 not necessarily mean that you would have more security. 220 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:25,179 ---The way you sell it to people is to appease their sense of anxieties around 221 00:21:25,179 --> 00:21:32,020 "Oh, this is an insecure world. Anything could happen at any time. And so if 222 00:21:32,020 --> 00:21:36,030 anything could happen at any time, what can we do about it? 223 00:21:36,030 --> 00:21:40,610 ---You gut the feeling that the text is trying to make sure that few enforecment 224 00:21:40,610 --> 00:21:44,270 will be able to get access to communications by any means that they 225 00:21:44,270 --> 00:21:46,710 wish. ---To be able to stop something from 226 00:21:46,710 --> 00:21:50,260 happening before it happens, you have to know everything. You have to look at the 227 00:21:50,260 --> 00:21:55,159 past, look at what happened, but also predict the future by looking at the past 228 00:21:55,159 --> 00:22:00,670 and then getting as much information as you can on everything all the time. So 229 00:22:00,670 --> 00:22:03,760 it's about zero risk. Kurz: All developed democraties have a 230 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,870 concept of like proporionality, that's what the call it in Germany. that 231 00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:12,020 surveillance measures are weighed up against the repeat for fundamental rights. 232 00:22:12,020 --> 00:22:16,071 This undoubtly includes privacy. Privacy is very highly viewed in Germany and 233 00:22:16,071 --> 00:22:23,370 directly derived from human dignity. And human dignity is only negotiable to very 234 00:22:23,370 --> 00:22:28,919 tiny degree. ---When we are afraid to speak either 235 00:22:28,919 --> 00:22:32,780 because of our government coming after us because of a partner or a boss or 236 00:22:32,780 --> 00:22:37,400 whomever. All sorts of surveillance causes self censorship. But I think that mass 237 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,059 surveillance. The idea that everything we are doing is being collected can cause a 238 00:22:41,059 --> 00:22:43,730 lot of people to think twice before they open their mouths. 239 00:22:43,730 --> 00:22:51,630 ---When all your likes can be traced back to you of course it affects your 240 00:22:51,630 --> 00:22:56,320 behaviour. Of couse it's usually the case that sometimes you think: If you like this 241 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:01,600 thing or if you don't, it would have some social repressions. 242 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:07,610 ---But if you look throughout history, the Reformation, the gay rights movements all 243 00:23:07,610 --> 00:23:13,480 these movements where illegal in some way. If not by law, stricktly, then by culture. 244 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,710 And if we'd this kind of mass surveillance would we have had this movements? 245 00:23:18,710 --> 00:23:23,279 ---If all laws were absolutes, then we would never have progressed to the point 246 00:23:23,279 --> 00:23:27,820 where women had equal rights because women had to break the laws. That said: "You 247 00:23:27,820 --> 00:23:32,750 can't have equal rights". Black people in America had to break the laws that said 248 00:23:32,750 --> 00:23:40,690 they could not have equal rights. And there's common thread here. You know a lot 249 00:23:40,690 --> 00:23:47,950 of our laws historically have had the harshest effect on the most vulnerable in 250 00:23:47,950 --> 00:23:51,280 society. Kurz: The components of whomever has 251 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,510 something to hide has to blame only themselves only emerged in recent years. 252 00:23:56,510 --> 00:24:03,600 In particular, the former CEO of Google Eric Smith is known for that of course, he 253 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,480 certyinly said that. "If you have something that you don't want 254 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,930 anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be dooing it on the first place. " But this 255 00:24:09,930 --> 00:24:16,420 is so hostile to humans that is almost funny. You could think it is satire. A lot 256 00:24:16,420 --> 00:24:19,320 of people can't help that they have something to hide in a society, that is 257 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:24,190 unjust. *wieder Eric Shmid" "But if you really need that kind of privacy, the 258 00:24:24,190 --> 00:24:36,470 reallity is that search changes including google to retain that information for some 259 00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:46,460 time. " ---Big corporations that have this 260 00:24:46,460 --> 00:24:51,220 business model of people farming are interested in you becaurse you are the row 261 00:24:51,220 --> 00:24:55,000 materials. Right. Your Infromation is row materials. What they do is they process 262 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:00,450 that to build a profile of you. And that's where the real value is. Because if I know 263 00:25:00,450 --> 00:25:06,030 enough about you, if I as much information about you that I can build a very 264 00:25:06,030 --> 00:25:14,020 lifelike, constantly evolving picture of you, a s simpulation of you. That's very 265 00:25:14,020 --> 00:25:16,980 vulnerable. ---The economy of the net is predicting 266 00:25:16,980 --> 00:25:23,159 human behaviour, so that eyeballls can be delivered to advertising and that's 267 00:25:23,159 --> 00:25:26,610 targeting advertising. ---The system in ways is set up for them 268 00:25:26,610 --> 00:25:32,169 to make money and sell our lettle bits of data, our interests, our demographics for 269 00:25:32,169 --> 00:25:36,559 other people and for advertisers to be able to sell things. These companies know 270 00:25:36,559 --> 00:25:40,220 more about us than we know about ourselves. Right now we're feeding the 271 00:25:40,220 --> 00:25:43,490 beast. And right now, there's very little oversight. 272 00:25:43,490 --> 00:25:49,190 ---It has to reach one person, the same ad at particular time, if at 3:00 p.m. you 273 00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:55,169 buy the soda you get your lunch. How about 2:55pm you'll get an ad about a discount 274 00:25:55,169 --> 00:26:01,640 about a pizza place next door or a salad place. Where had exactly the soda comes. 275 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,370 So that's what targeted advertising is. ---It is true, it is convinient. You know, 276 00:26:04,370 --> 00:26:08,610 I always laugh every time I'm on a site. I'm looking at, let's say, a sweater I 277 00:26:08,610 --> 00:26:12,080 want to buy. And then I move over to another site and it advertising for that 278 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,350 same sweater. It pops up and reminds me how much I want it. It's both convinient 279 00:26:16,350 --> 00:26:19,950 and annoying. ---It's a pity that some of the greatest 280 00:26:19,950 --> 00:26:25,440 minds in our century are only wondering how to make you look advertising. And 281 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,590 that's where the surveillance economy beginns, I will say, and not just ends. 282 00:26:30,590 --> 00:26:36,370 ---To a lot of people that may seem much less harmful. Bur the fact that they're 283 00:26:36,370 --> 00:26:41,130 capturing this date means that data exists and we don't who they might share it with. 284 00:26:41,130 --> 00:26:45,409 ---There is whole new business now, you know, data brokers who drew upon, you 285 00:26:45,409 --> 00:26:50,180 know, thousands of data points and create client profiles to sell to companies. Now, 286 00:26:50,180 --> 00:26:53,929 you don't really know what happens with this kind of things. So it is hard to 287 00:26:53,929 --> 00:26:59,870 tell, what the implications are until it is too late. Until it happens. 288 00:26:59,870 --> 00:27:03,850 ---The Stasi compared to Google or Facebook, where amateurs, the Stasi 289 00:27:03,850 --> 00:27:10,570 actually had to use people to surcail you to spy on you. That was expensive. It was 290 00:27:10,570 --> 00:27:16,250 time consuming. They had to pick targets. It was very expensive for them to have all 291 00:27:16,250 --> 00:27:21,320 of these people spying on you. Facebook and Google don't have to do that. They use 292 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:26,169 Algorithms, that's the mass in mass surveillance. The fact that it is so 293 00:27:26,169 --> 00:27:32,200 cheap, so convenient to spy on so many people. And it's not a conspiracy theory. 294 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,179 You don't need conspiracies when you have the simplicity of business models. 295 00:27:36,179 --> 00:27:42,570 ---When we talk about algorithms, we actually talk about logic. When you want, 296 00:27:42,570 --> 00:27:48,669 for example, buy a book on Amazon. You have always seen a few other suggestions. 297 00:27:48,669 --> 00:27:54,910 These suggestions are produced for you based on the history of your preferences, 298 00:27:54,910 --> 00:28:00,280 the history of your searches. ---They learn by making mistakes. And the 299 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:07,080 thing is, that's fine if it's like selling dog feed. But it's about predictive 300 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:12,480 pollicing and about creating a matrix where you see which individuals are 301 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,130 threatening, that's not ok for me. You know, that has to be limits. There has to 302 00:28:17,130 --> 00:28:22,360 be lines. And these are all the dynamics that are coming from the bottom up. These 303 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:26,100 are the discussions that need to be had, but they need to be had with all actors. 304 00:28:26,100 --> 00:28:31,190 It's can't just be a an echo chamber. You don't talk to the some people who agree 305 00:28:31,190 --> 00:28:36,240 with you. ---So one consequence of this would be 306 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:42,690 many minorities or many people who have minority views would be silenced. And we 307 00:28:42,690 --> 00:28:47,400 always know that when a minority view is silenced, it would empower them in a way 308 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:57,250 and it would radicalize them in the long run. This is one aspect. The other is that 309 00:28:57,250 --> 00:29:00,640 you would never be challenged by anyone, who disagrees with you. 310 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:07,409 ---We have to understand that our data is not exhaust. Our data is not oil. Data is 311 00:29:07,409 --> 00:29:13,460 people. You maybe not doing anything wrong today, but maybe three governments from 312 00:29:13,460 --> 00:29:19,151 now when they pass a certain law, what you have done today might be illegal, for 313 00:29:19,151 --> 00:29:24,530 example, and governments that keep that data can look back over 10, 20 years and 314 00:29:24,530 --> 00:29:33,289 maybe start prosecuting. ---When everything we buy, everything we 315 00:29:33,289 --> 00:29:43,679 read, even the people we meet and date is determined by this algorithms, I think the 316 00:29:43,679 --> 00:29:49,581 amount of power that they exert on the society and individuals in this society is 317 00:29:49,581 --> 00:29:56,510 more than the state to the some degree. And so there I think representatives 318 00:29:56,510 --> 00:30:03,679 democracy have the duty to push the government to open up these private 319 00:30:03,679 --> 00:30:12,850 entities, to at least expose to some degree how much control they exert. 320 00:30:12,850 --> 00:30:14,510 ---If you adopt the technological perspective and realize that technology 321 00:30:14,510 --> 00:30:19,059 will slip into our lives much more than is already the case: Technically into our 322 00:30:19,059 --> 00:30:22,620 bodies, our clothes, into devices that we sit in an we're wearing, in all sorts of 323 00:30:22,620 --> 00:30:32,220 areas of our coexistence and working life, then that's definitely the wrong way to 324 00:30:32,220 --> 00:30:35,360 go. Because it leads to a total surveillance. And if you think about it 325 00:30:35,360 --> 00:31:30,570 for a few minutes, you will realize that the dichotomy is between control & 326 00:31:30,570 --> 00:31:42,130 freedom. And a fully controlled society cannot be free. 327 00:31:42,130 --> 00:31:43,130 *post film music* [Filler please remove in amara] 328 00:31:43,130 --> 00:31:52,630 Herald: Hello and welcome back from the movie and know I welcome also our 329 00:31:52,630 --> 00:32:09,110 producer. And. It was very. Oh, yeah, showing very good. What information can do 330 00:32:09,110 --> 00:32:16,190 and what could be done with information, I give some people a bit more time to ask 331 00:32:16,190 --> 00:32:27,779 more questions. And in the meantime, I could ask, Oh, well, this is moving. Those 332 00:32:27,779 --> 00:32:37,539 of these remote to your home was not shown today for the first time. So what would 333 00:32:37,539 --> 00:32:46,120 you do different or what you think has maybe changed in the meanwhile since you 334 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,840 made it? pandemonium: What I would change is I 335 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:59,890 would definitely try much harder to secure funding to just simply make a better movie 336 00:32:59,890 --> 00:33:05,440 and have more time and edited faster because the editing process, because I had 337 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:12,429 to work on the side was quite long. And this film, and the way it stands now, was 338 00:33:12,429 --> 00:33:20,320 essentially only funded by a few very great people who supported me on Patreon 339 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:26,539 and helped me with some of their private money, essentially so that it was 340 00:33:26,539 --> 00:33:30,280 essentially an almost no budget production. So I would definitely change 341 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:36,730 that. But documentary seen in Germany being what it is, it's very hard to secure 342 00:33:36,730 --> 00:33:41,960 money if you're not attached to a TV station or if you don't have a name yet. 343 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:47,100 And since I didn't have a name, but I still want to make the movie, I made the 344 00:33:47,100 --> 00:33:52,730 movie. I am still very happy with the general direction of it. But of course, 345 00:33:52,730 --> 00:34:00,860 since that was mainly shot in 2015 and 2016, some of the newer developments in 346 00:34:00,860 --> 00:34:10,800 terms of especially biometric mass surveillance and police. Especially in the 347 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:18,020 U.S., the way police uses body cams, etc. is not really reflected. But I still think 348 00:34:18,020 --> 00:34:25,370 that the I would still go with the whole angle on colonialism and racism that is 349 00:34:25,370 --> 00:34:30,889 deeply entrenched in the discussions around surveillance and privacy. And we 350 00:34:30,889 --> 00:34:36,220 can see that in discussions about shutting down Telegram in Germany at the moment 351 00:34:36,220 --> 00:34:42,050 because right wing groups the there we see it in discussions about how to deal with 352 00:34:42,050 --> 00:34:48,560 hate speech online on Facebook or the Metaverse. And it's going to be called 353 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:53,900 Zoom. And all of these things are already kind of in the movie, but I would have 354 00:34:53,900 --> 00:35:00,880 probably focused a bit more on them if I'd known. Six years ago what would happen and 355 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:06,920 if I would make it now? But generally, the direction I would choose the same. 356 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:18,990 Herald: Yeah, it's quite fascinating. So it was nearly no budget was so low, and it 357 00:35:18,990 --> 00:35:28,890 was also an interesting point to entertain now, because in principle, I understood 358 00:35:28,890 --> 00:35:35,840 the ideas that body cams should create actually a means of protecting people 359 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:42,190 against police and not the other way around as it happens sometimes. 360 00:35:42,190 --> 00:35:47,930 pandemonium: So there are definitely and the problem with especially body cams or 361 00:35:47,930 --> 00:35:55,200 also other of other means of surveillance is that a video is always thought to be an 362 00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:01,930 objective recording of the reality. But of course, it always depends on the angle and 363 00:36:01,930 --> 00:36:08,010 cases of body cams, quite literally the angle, but also data interpretation. And 364 00:36:08,010 --> 00:36:14,630 since humans are always full of biases and always full of presumptions about who 365 00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:21,380 might be in the right and who might be in the wrong, these imagery, images or videos 366 00:36:21,380 --> 00:36:25,180 tend to never, even if they would be showing the objective truth, they're 367 00:36:25,180 --> 00:36:31,990 barely ever interpret it that way. And it's exactly the same with any sort of 368 00:36:31,990 --> 00:36:38,890 film or photography that we're doing. I mean, for this movie, I assembled a ton of 369 00:36:38,890 --> 00:36:42,550 interviews and there were very long there were several hours long in many cases, and 370 00:36:42,550 --> 00:36:49,160 I could added probably 100 different versions of this movie going essentially 371 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:58,569 almost opposite directions, exactly the same material. It shows very strongly how 372 00:36:58,569 --> 00:37:05,869 important it is, that at the end of the day we overcome our biosies as judges, as 373 00:37:05,869 --> 00:37:12,220 police people, as people walking on the street an trying to overcome any sort of 374 00:37:12,220 --> 00:37:22,480 surveillance on this impossible on the technical level, is always connected with 375 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:32,160 the way, we understand world. Herald: Yeah, this is, I also remember a 376 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:45,110 talk several years ago , it was about one of "freiheit statt Angst" Demonstrations 377 00:37:45,110 --> 00:37:54,160 in Berlin. And there was also a case, where the term was established, the guy 378 00:37:54,160 --> 00:38:02,849 with a t-shirt got beaten by police and it was very hard to assemble different videos 379 00:38:02,849 --> 00:38:11,410 and to tell the whole story, what had happened. You should be able to find that, 380 00:38:11,410 --> 00:38:18,290 there was a talk , where this was constructed somehow. 381 00:38:18,290 --> 00:38:23,079 Producer: I will definitely looked that up. 382 00:38:23,079 --> 00:38:31,250 Herald. But I'm not sure about the year anymore but you will find it. Now we have 383 00:38:31,250 --> 00:38:38,040 a real question from the audience. The first is, can I find the movie anywhere 384 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,790 and show it to somebody else? Producer: Yes. It is on YouTube. *laugh* 385 00:38:42,790 --> 00:38:46,099 Herald: Ok. Producer: You can literally find it by 386 00:38:46,099 --> 00:38:54,540 typing my name, which is Theresia Reinhold. And you can find it. 387 00:38:54,540 --> 00:39:07,590 Herald. ok. So, its very good. So, I hope they are happy. Is the 21. Century 388 00:39:07,590 --> 00:39:12,980 attention span for non-technical friend with biggest claim. I don't get the 389 00:39:12,980 --> 00:39:35,650 questions. The Idea is: Is there a way of explaining the non technical people, what 390 00:39:35,650 --> 00:39:40,690 is the problem with "I do not have nothing to hide". 391 00:39:40,690 --> 00:39:48,070 Producer: If there is anything in your life, where you are happy, no one is 392 00:39:48,070 --> 00:39:52,760 watching you doing, whether it is a Century video, that a lot of people don't 393 00:39:52,760 --> 00:40:01,050 know, that you are watching. Or singing in the shower or anything, then that is your 394 00:40:01,050 --> 00:40:13,109 absolute right that you are not. No one is judging you on them, and that's the same 395 00:40:13,109 --> 00:40:19,290 with mass surveillance and surfing online or walking down the street. We have a very 396 00:40:19,290 --> 00:40:26,630 basic comfort zone, should be protected. Know we have a human right to privacy and 397 00:40:26,630 --> 00:40:31,130 whether it's in a technical room or in an analog room, like being in a shopping mall 398 00:40:31,130 --> 00:40:34,660 and picking up, I don't know whatever you don't want other people to know that 399 00:40:34,660 --> 00:40:40,390 you're buying. You should have the right to do that in private and not have it be 400 00:40:40,390 --> 00:40:45,500 known to other people. And when we are surfing the internet, everything we do is 401 00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:54,280 constantly analyzed and watched in real time and you notice our movements online 402 00:40:54,280 --> 00:41:00,119 are sold to the highest bidder and as a whole, massive advertising industry behind 403 00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:08,609 it. And that's just immoral because humans should have always the ability to share 404 00:41:08,609 --> 00:41:15,532 only what they want to share. That's how I try to explain it to non tech people. And 405 00:41:15,532 --> 00:41:17,550 if they're not tech, people from the former east, is just here to move to Stasi 406 00:41:17,550 --> 00:41:20,620 and they know exactly what you're talking about. 407 00:41:20,620 --> 00:41:27,109 Herald: Yes, thanks for this explanation again. And I think also what is important, 408 00:41:27,109 --> 00:41:34,220 what was also mentioned in the movie is the thing with that is and speak, since it 409 00:41:34,220 --> 00:41:41,420 can be stored now that it's so that future can haunt your history. Kind of. 410 00:41:41,420 --> 00:41:47,510 pandemonium. Yeah. Herald: And actually, the question was 411 00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:58,400 now be more precise. And actually, it was not what I asked you *Laughs*. Actually is 412 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:06,880 the question of whether there is or there could be a short teaser that people could 413 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:12,260 send to your friends to two of their friends to to watch the whole movie? 414 00:42:12,260 --> 00:42:15,630 *laughs* Reinhold: Oh yes, there is. And that is 415 00:42:15,630 --> 00:42:20,119 also on YouTube and on Vimeo. OK, sorry. Yes. *Laugh* 416 00:42:20,119 --> 00:42:27,320 Herald: Well, I also didn't get it from the question. So OK, so people will find 417 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:34,410 it very good. So then I guess we are through with the questions, and I thank 418 00:42:34,410 --> 00:42:46,760 you again for your nice movie and for being here. Yeah, and. Then this talk is 419 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:57,010 over here. Chaos zone a TV comes back to you at four p.m. with the talk "tales from 420 00:42:57,010 --> 00:43:05,170 the quantum industry" until then? Oh yeah. Which some other streams go to the world 421 00:43:05,170 --> 00:43:08,329 or. Have some lunch. See you. [Filler please remove in amara] 422 00:43:08,329 --> 00:43:09,329 *post roll music* [Filler please remove in amara] 423 00:43:09,329 --> 00:43:10,829 Subtitles created by many many volunteers and the c3subtitles.de team. Join us, and help us!