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*RC3 preroll music*[br][Filler please remove in amara]

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Herald: Welcome back on the channel, of[br]Chaos zone TV. Now we have an English

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speaking contribution. And for that, I[br]welcome pandemonium, who is a historian

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and documentary film maker, and therefore[br]we will also not have a normal talk, but

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we will see the documentary information.[br]What are they looking at? A documentary on

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privacy. And afterwards, we can all talk[br]about the film, so feel free to post your

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questions and we can discuss them. Let's[br]enjoy the film.

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*film started*[br][Filler please remove in amara]

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---Because the great promise of the[br]internet is freedom. Freedom of

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expression, freedom of organization,[br]freedom of assembly. These are really seen

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as underpinning rights of what we see as[br]democratic values.

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---Just because you have safety does not[br]mean that you cannot have freedom. Just

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because you have freedom does not mean you[br]cannot have safety.

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---Why is the reaction to doubt it rather[br]than to assume that it's true and act

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accordingly?[br]---We need to be able to break those laws

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that are unjust.[br]---Privacy is an essence, becoming a de

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facto crime. That is somehow you are[br]hiding something.

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---So just to be sure let's have no[br]privacy.

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"Information, what are they looking at? A[br]film by Theresia Reinhold.

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"The Internet is [...] everywhere, but we[br]only see it in the glimpses. The internet

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is like the wholy ghost: it makes itself[br]knowable to us by taking possession of the

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pixels on our screens to manifest sites[br]and apps and email, but its essence is

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always elsewhere.[br]---Before the Internet came about,

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communication was generally one editor to[br]many, many readers. But now it's peer to

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peer. So, you know, at a touch of a button[br]people have an opportunity to reach

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millions of people. That's revolutionizing[br]the way we communicate.

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---One of the things that Facebook and to[br]a lesser degree Twitter allowed people to

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do is be able to see that they weren't[br]alone. And it was able to create a

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critical mass. And I think that's a very[br]important role that social media took on.

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It was able to show people a very easy way[br]in people's Facebook feeds: "Oh, wow. Look

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at Tahrir Square, there's people out there[br]in Bahrain, in Pearl Square." What people

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could feel before walking out their door[br]into real life action, that they could see

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that they are not isolated in their desire[br]for some sort of change.

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---The great promise of the internet is[br]freedom where the minds without fear and

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the head is held high.  And the knowledge[br]is free. Because the promise was: This

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will be the great equalizer.[br]---Before the social web, before the Web

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2.0, anything you were doing was kind of[br]anonymous. By the very concept of

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anonymity you were able to discuss things[br]that would probably be not according to

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dominance themes or the dominant trends of[br]values of your own society.

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---I don't find this discussion about how[br]to deal with the assertion "I have nothing

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to hide" boring, even after many years.[br]Because this sentence is very short, but

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very perfidious. The speaker, who hurls[br]the sentence "I have nothing to hide" at

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me, not only says something about[br]themselves, but also something about me.

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Because this sentence "I have nothing to[br]hide" also has the unspoken component of

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"You don't either, do you?" In this[br]respect, I think this sentence lacks

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solidarity, because at the same time one[br]does not want to work to ensure that the

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other, who perhaps has something to hide,[br]is able to do so.

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---One of the things about privacy is that[br]it's not always about you. It's about the

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people in our networks. And so, for[br]example, I have a lot of friends who are

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from Syria. People that I have met in[br]other places in the world, not necessary

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refugees. People who lived abroad for a[br]while, but those people are at risk all

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the time. Both in their home country and[br]often in their host countries as well. And

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so, I might say that I have nothing to[br]hide. I might say that there's no reason

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that I need to keep myself safe. But if[br]you've got any more like that in a

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network, any activists, any people from[br]countries like that, it's thinking about

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privacy and thinking about security means[br]thinking about keeping those people safe,

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too.[br]Privacy is important, because if think of

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the alternative, if everything is public,[br]if the norm is public, then anything that

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you want to keep to yourself has an[br]association or guild attached. And that

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should not be the world that we create.[br]That's a chilling effect. It's a chilling

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effect on our freedoms. It's a chilling[br]effect on democracy.

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"No one shall be subjected to arbitrary[br]interference with this privacy, family,

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home or correspondence, for the attacks[br]upon his honor and reputation. Everyone

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has the right to the protection of the law[br]against such interference or attacks.

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---To me, human rights are something which[br]has been put to place to guarantee the

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freedoms of every single person in the[br]world. They're supposed to be universal,

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indivisible. Having in the eyes of this[br]systems.

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---They're collecting data and metadata[br]about hundreds of thousands, millions of

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people. And some of that data will never[br]be looked at. That's a fact. We know that.

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But at the same time, assuming that just[br]because you're not involved in activism or

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you're not well known that you're not[br]going to be a target at some point, I

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think, that is what can be really harmful[br]to us. Right now you may not be under any

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threat at all, but your friends might be,[br]your family might be or you might be in

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the future. And so that's why we need to[br]think about it this way, not because we're

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going to be snatched out of our homes in[br]the middle of the night now.  But because

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this data and this metadata lasts for a[br]long time.

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---My observation is what we are[br]experiencing right now is that the private

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space that should be and remain private in[br]the digital world is slowly beginning to

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erode. It is becoming permeable, and not[br]just factual. Factually, of course, but

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not only factually, but also in[br]perception. I imagine the digital world as

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a panoptical. This is the ring-shaped[br]building designed by Jeremy Benthem. In

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the ring the prisoners are accommodated in[br]the individual cell, and in the middle

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there is a watchtower. And there is a[br]guard sitting there. And this guard, who

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can observe and supervise the prisoners in[br]the cells around him all the time. The

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trick is that the prisoners cannot know if[br]they are being watched. They only see the

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tower, but they don't see the warden. But[br]they know very well that they could be

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watched permanently at any time. And this[br]fact exerts a changing decisive effect.

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---I think surveillance is a technology of[br]governmentality. It's a bio political

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technology. It's there to control and[br]manage populations. It's really propelled

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by state power and the power of entities[br]that are glued in that cohere around the

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state, right? So it is there as a form of[br]population management and control. So you

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have to convince people that it's in their[br]interest and its like: Every man for

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himself and everyone is out to get[br]everyone.

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*relaying music is plays*[br][Filler please remove in amara]

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---I take my cue from a former general[br]counsel of the NSA, Suart Baker, who said

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on this question: Meta-Data absolutely[br]tells you everything about somebodies

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life. If you have enough Meta-Data you[br]don't really need content. It is sort of

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embarrassing, how predictable we are as[br]human beings.

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---So let's say that you make a phone one[br]night, you call up a suicide hotline, for

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example, you're feeling down, you call[br]that hotline and then a few hours later

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maybe you call a friend. A few hours later[br]you call a doctor, you send an email and

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so on so forth. Now, the contents of that[br]of those calls and those e-mails are not

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necessarily collected. What's being[br]collected is the time of the call and the

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place that you called. And so sometimes in[br]events like that, those different pieces

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of metadata can be linked together to[br]profile someone.

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---David's description of what you can do[br]with metadata, and quoting a mutual friend

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Stewart Baker, is absolutely correct. We[br]kill people based on Meta-Data. But that

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is not what we do with this Meta-Data.[br]Mayor Denett: Thankfully. Wow, I was

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working up a sweat there *Mayor laughs*[br]for a second.

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---You know, the impetus for governments[br]for conducting this kind of surveillance

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is often at least in rhetoric go to after[br]terrorists. And obviously, we don't want

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terrorism. And so that justification[br]resonates with most of the public. But I

0:10:48.430,0:10:52.019
think that there's a couple problems with[br]it. The first is that they haven't

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demonstrated to us that surveillance[br]actually works in stopping terrorist

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attacks. We haven't seen it work yet. It[br]didn't work in Paris. It didn't work in

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Boston. t didn't work elsewhere. So that's[br]one part of it. But then I think the other

0:11:05.170,0:11:10.389
part of it is that we spend billions of[br]dollars on surveillance and on war, but

0:11:10.389,0:11:13.280
spend very little money on addressing the[br]root causes of terrorism.

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---I consider this debate security versus[br]freedom to be a bugaboo. Because these

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values are not mutually exclusive. I'm not[br]buying into this propaganda anymore. Many

0:11:22.209,0:11:28.740
of the measures we have endured in the[br]last ten years have not led to more

0:11:28.740,0:11:34.180
security, in terms of state-imposed[br]surveillance. And this is one reason why I

0:11:34.180,0:11:42.480
don't want to continue this debate about[br]whether we should sacrifice freedom for

0:11:42.480,0:11:47.381
more security.[br]---I think power is concealed in the whole

0:11:47.381,0:11:53.130
discourse around surveillance, and the way[br]its concealed is through this

0:11:53.130,0:12:00.710
legitimization that it's in your interest[br]that it keeps you safe. But there have

0:12:00.710,0:12:07.470
been many instances where citizens groups[br]have actually fought against that kind of

0:12:07.470,0:12:11.450
surveillance. And I think there is also[br]sort of a mystique around *music starts*

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the technology of surveillance. There is[br]the whole sort of like this notion that,

0:12:15.690,0:12:20.280
ah, because it's a technology and it's[br]designed to do this. It's actually

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working. But all of this is a concealment[br]of power relations because who can surveil

0:12:25.589,0:12:31.720
who? Is the issue, right?[br]---But it isn't the majority of the

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English population here to get stopped and[br]searched. It's non-white people. It is not

0:12:38.190,0:12:42.519
the majority of non-white people who get[br]approached to inform on the community.

0:12:42.519,0:12:47.649
It's Muslim communities.[br]---The surveillance that one does on the

0:12:47.649,0:12:55.540
other. So as airport, it's the other[br]passengers that say, oh, so-and-so is

0:12:55.540,0:13:03.240
speaking in Arabic. And therefore, that[br]person becomes the subject, the target

0:13:03.240,0:13:08.380
that hyper-surveillance. So it's the kind[br]of surveillances that are being exercised

0:13:08.380,0:13:15.810
by each of us on the other. Because of[br]this culture of fear that has been

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nourished on a way and that's mushrooming[br]all around us. And these are fears, I

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think, go anywhere from the most concrete[br]to the most vague.

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---In this way, I think this is another[br]way of creating a semblance of control

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where this identity is very easily[br]visible. It's very easily targeted and

0:13:38.200,0:13:41.620
it's very easily defined.[br]---For me, this political discussion is

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purely based on fear in which the fear of[br]people, which is justified, are exploited.

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And where racist stereotypes are being[br]repeated. I think it extremely dangerous

0:13:58.750,0:14:08.089
to give in to this more and more, also[br]because I believe that it reinforces

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negative instincts in people. Exclusion,[br]but also racial profiling.

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Kurz: It's inherently disentranchising,[br]it's disempowering and it's isolating.

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When you feel you're being treated as a[br]different person to the rest of the

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population, that's when measures like[br]surveillance, things that are enabled by

0:14:27.220,0:14:37.710
technology really hit home. And cause you[br]to sort of change that way you feel as a

0:14:37.710,0:14:40.160
subject. Because at the end of the day,[br]you are subjective of a government.

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---How is it that these mass surveillance[br]programs have been kept secret for years

0:14:46.730,0:14:52.220
when they are supposed to be so meaningful[br]and effective? Why didn't anyone publicly

0:14:52.220,0:14:57.710
justify it? Then why was it all secretly[br]justified by secret courts with secret

0:14:57.710,0:15:02.410
court rulings? Why, after the Snowden[br]publications began, did the Commission of

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intelligent Agents, which specifically[br]appointed Obama com to the conclusion that

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not a single --zero --- of this cases of[br]terror or attempted terrorist attacks has

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been partially resolved by these giant[br]telecommunications metadata? In trying to

0:15:20.010,0:15:26.029
stop something from happening before it[br]happens, they can put in a measure and

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that thing might not happen. But they[br]don't know it that measure stopped that

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thing from happening, because that thing[br]never happened. It's hard to measure. You

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can't measure it. And you can't say with[br]certainty thst because of this measure

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that that didn't happen. But after 9/11,[br]after the catastrophic level of attack, it

0:15:47.240,0:15:54.620
put decision makers into this impossible[br]position where citizens where scared. They

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needed to do something. One part of that[br]is trying to screen everybody objectively

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and have that sort of panoptical[br]surveillance. Saying that: "No, no. We can

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see everything. Don't worry. We have the[br]haystack. We just need to find the needle.

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But then obviously, they need ways to[br]target that. You can see it most clearly

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over here. You got leaflets through your[br]door a few years ago, basically saying

0:16:22.930,0:16:29.069
that if you've seen anything suspicious,[br]call this hotline. It listed things like

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the neighbor who goes away on holiday many[br]times a year or, another neighbor whose

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curtains are always drawn. It just changes[br]the way you look at society and you look

0:16:44.459,0:16:51.430
at yourself. And it shifts the presumption[br]of Innocence to a presumption of guilt

0:16:51.430,0:16:55.769
already.[br]---When is someone a potential suicide

0:16:55.769,0:17:07.910
bomber? This is where the problem begins.[br]When they wear an explosive belt and holds

0:17:07.910,0:17:17.309
the tiger in their hands? Or when they[br]order the building blocks for an explosive

0:17:17.309,0:17:29.360
belt online? Or when they informed[br]themselves about how to build an explosive

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vest? When can the state legally[br]intervene? For me it is about the central

0:17:38.250,0:17:45.600
very problematic question whether someone[br]who very problematic question whether

0:17:45.600,0:17:55.150
someone who has been identified as a[br]potential danger or a potential terrorist,

0:17:55.150,0:18:04.250
without being a terrorist, if someone like[br]that can then be legally surveilled or

0:18:04.250,0:18:14.520
even arrested? That means if certain[br]people by potentially posing a concrete

0:18:14.520,0:18:20.429
danger ot society can be stripped of,[br]their fundamental human rights?

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---We face am unprecedented threat which[br]will last

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Two days after the attacks in Brüssel on[br]the 22.03.2016 Jean Claude Juncker and the

0:18:25.740,0:18:33.299
french prime minister held a join pres[br]conference. But we also believe that we

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need to be a union of security. In it[br]Juncker called to the ministers to accept

0:18:37.070,0:18:41.690
a proposal by the commision for the[br]propection of the EU.

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---For over 15 years now  we have observed[br]a big populist push to adopt even more

0:18:48.010,0:18:52.200
surveillance measures. With the attacks of[br]the past years, there was the opportunity

0:18:52.200,0:18:57.940
to pass even more. We have this proposal[br]for a new directive whose contents a

0:18:57.940,0:19:03.030
purely based on ideology.[br]The Text of the law passed in summary

0:19:03.030,0:19:07.140
proceedings was adopteed as an anti-[br]terrorism directive. Green Member of

0:19:07.140,0:19:15.210
Parlament Jan Phillipp Albrecht wrote in[br]an Statement to Netzpolitik.org: "What the

0:19:15.210,0:19:17.980
Directive defines as Terrorism could be[br]used by governments to criminalize

0:19:17.980,0:19:23.570
political action or political protest".[br]---These type of laws actually are neutral

0:19:23.570,0:19:26.400
in principle. In praxis, they are very[br]discrimantory. If you talk to any

0:19:26.400,0:19:30.950
politician right now of the EU level or at[br]the national or local level they will tell

0:19:30.950,0:19:33.940
you that most likely this people are[br]Muslims.

0:19:33.940,0:19:37.860
---Historically and Philosophically this[br]problem is well known to us. We always

0:19:37.860,0:19:46.110
tend to put everithing which is unpleasant[br]or eene to us, to the horizon. "This is

0:19:46.110,0:19:59.169
strange ti us. It is done by others, not[br]by us." And when one of us does it thent

0:19:59.169,0:20:05.102
they have to be distributed.[br]---And this is Edward Said's point of view

0:20:05.102,0:20:12.690
that the western seit comes to define[br]itself in relation to  this eastern other.

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So everything that the West was, the East[br]was'nt and everything that the East was,

0:20:18.230,0:20:22.030
the West wasn't. Ans so the East became[br]this province of emotionality,

0:20:22.030,0:20:28.080
irrationality. And the West became the[br]source of reason, everything controlled

0:20:28.080,0:20:33.210
and contained and so forth. And it is this[br]dichotomy that continues to play itself

0:20:33.210,0:20:36.640
out.[br]---Terrorism emerged as a term for the

0:20:36.640,0:20:43.620
first time in context of the French[br]Revolution. The Jacobins who under

0:20:43.620,0:20:49.080
Rebesprierre were the reign of terror,[br]those where the first Terrorists, that's

0:20:49.080,0:20:54.620
what they called. The first terrorism was[br]the terrorism of the state and of course

0:20:54.620,0:20:58.970
this also included the systematic[br]monitoring of Conterrevoliners.

0:20:58.970,0:21:07.370
---Where the proposal of the directive[br]says that it complies with human rights.

0:21:07.370,0:21:10.320
It actually does not because they want to[br]increase surveillance measures in order

0:21:10.320,0:21:14.830
for the population to feel safer. However,[br]we've seen that more repressive measure do

0:21:14.830,0:21:18.440
not necessarily mean that you would have[br]more security.

0:21:18.440,0:21:25.179
---The way you sell it to people is to[br]appease their sense of anxieties around

0:21:25.179,0:21:32.020
"Oh, this is an insecure world. Anything[br]could happen at any time. And so if

0:21:32.020,0:21:36.030
anything could happen at any time, what[br]can we do about it?

0:21:36.030,0:21:40.610
---You gut the feeling that the text is[br]trying to make sure that few enforecment

0:21:40.610,0:21:44.270
will be able to get access to[br]communications by any means that they

0:21:44.270,0:21:46.710
wish.[br]---To be able to stop something from

0:21:46.710,0:21:50.260
happening before it happens, you have to[br]know everything. You have to look at the

0:21:50.260,0:21:55.159
past, look at what happened, but also[br]predict the future by looking at the past

0:21:55.159,0:22:00.670
and then getting as much information as[br]you can on everything all the time. So

0:22:00.670,0:22:03.760
it's about zero risk.[br]Kurz: All developed democraties have a

0:22:03.760,0:22:08.870
concept of like proporionality, that's[br]what the call it in Germany. that

0:22:08.870,0:22:12.020
surveillance measures are weighed up[br]against the repeat for fundamental rights.

0:22:12.020,0:22:16.071
This undoubtly includes privacy. Privacy[br]is very highly viewed in Germany and

0:22:16.071,0:22:23.370
directly derived from human dignity. And[br]human dignity is only negotiable to very

0:22:23.370,0:22:28.919
tiny degree.[br]---When we are afraid to speak either

0:22:28.919,0:22:32.780
because of our government coming after us[br]because of a partner or a boss or

0:22:32.780,0:22:37.400
whomever. All sorts of surveillance causes[br]self censorship. But I think that mass

0:22:37.400,0:22:41.059
surveillance. The idea that everything we[br]are doing is being collected can cause a

0:22:41.059,0:22:43.730
lot of people to think twice before they[br]open their mouths.

0:22:43.730,0:22:51.630
---When all your likes can be traced back[br]to you of course it affects your

0:22:51.630,0:22:56.320
behaviour. Of couse it's usually the case[br]that sometimes you think: If you like this

0:22:56.320,0:23:01.600
thing or if you don't, it would have some[br]social repressions.

0:23:01.600,0:23:07.610
---But if you look throughout history, the[br]Reformation, the gay rights movements all

0:23:07.610,0:23:13.480
these movements where illegal in some way.[br]If not by law, stricktly, then by culture.

0:23:13.480,0:23:18.710
And if we'd this kind of mass surveillance[br]would we have had this movements?

0:23:18.710,0:23:23.279
---If all laws were absolutes, then we[br]would never have progressed to the point

0:23:23.279,0:23:27.820
where women had equal rights because women[br]had to break the laws. That said: "You

0:23:27.820,0:23:32.750
can't have equal rights". Black people in[br]America had to break the laws that said

0:23:32.750,0:23:40.690
they could not have equal rights. And[br]there's common thread here. You know a lot

0:23:40.690,0:23:47.950
of our laws historically have had the[br]harshest effect on the most vulnerable in

0:23:47.950,0:23:51.280
society.[br]Kurz: The components of whomever has

0:23:51.280,0:23:56.510
something to hide has to blame only[br]themselves only emerged in recent years.

0:23:56.510,0:24:03.600
In particular, the former CEO of Google[br]Eric Smith is known for that of course, he

0:24:03.600,0:24:05.480
certyinly said that.[br]"If you have something that you don't want

0:24:05.480,0:24:09.930
anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be[br]dooing it on the first place. " But this

0:24:09.930,0:24:16.420
is so hostile to humans that is almost[br]funny. You could think it is satire. A lot

0:24:16.420,0:24:19.320
of people can't help that they have[br]something to hide in a society, that is

0:24:19.320,0:24:24.190
unjust. *wieder Eric Shmid" "But if you[br]really need that kind of privacy, the

0:24:24.190,0:24:36.470
reallity is that search changes including[br]google to retain that information for some

0:24:36.470,0:24:46.460
time. "[br]---Big corporations that have this

0:24:46.460,0:24:51.220
business model of people farming are[br]interested in you becaurse you are the row

0:24:51.220,0:24:55.000
materials. Right. Your Infromation is row[br]materials. What they do is they process

0:24:55.000,0:25:00.450
that to build a profile of you. And that's[br]where the real value is. Because if I know

0:25:00.450,0:25:06.030
enough about you, if I as much information[br]about you that I can build a very

0:25:06.030,0:25:14.020
lifelike, constantly evolving picture of[br]you, a s simpulation of you. That's very

0:25:14.020,0:25:16.980
vulnerable.[br]---The economy of the net is predicting

0:25:16.980,0:25:23.159
human behaviour, so that eyeballls can be[br]delivered to advertising and that's

0:25:23.159,0:25:26.610
targeting advertising.[br]---The system in ways is set up for them

0:25:26.610,0:25:32.169
to make money and sell our lettle bits of[br]data, our interests, our demographics for

0:25:32.169,0:25:36.559
other people and for advertisers to be[br]able to sell things. These companies know

0:25:36.559,0:25:40.220
more about us than we know about[br]ourselves. Right now we're feeding the

0:25:40.220,0:25:43.490
beast. And right now, there's very little[br]oversight.

0:25:43.490,0:25:49.190
---It has to reach one person, the same ad[br]at particular time, if at 3:00 p.m. you

0:25:49.190,0:25:55.169
buy the soda you get your lunch. How about[br]2:55pm you'll get an ad about a discount

0:25:55.169,0:26:01.640
about a pizza place next door or a salad[br]place. Where had exactly the soda comes.

0:26:01.640,0:26:04.370
So that's what targeted advertising is.[br]---It is true, it is convinient. You know,

0:26:04.370,0:26:08.610
I always laugh every time I'm on a site.[br]I'm looking at, let's say,  a sweater I

0:26:08.610,0:26:12.080
want to buy. And then I move over to[br]another site and it advertising for that

0:26:12.080,0:26:16.350
same sweater. It pops up and reminds me[br]how much I want it. It's both convinient

0:26:16.350,0:26:19.950
and annoying.[br]---It's a pity that some of the greatest

0:26:19.950,0:26:25.440
minds in our century are only wondering[br]how to make you look advertising. And

0:26:25.440,0:26:30.590
that's where the surveillance economy[br]beginns, I will say, and not just ends.

0:26:30.590,0:26:36.370
---To a lot of people that may seem much[br]less harmful. Bur the fact that they're

0:26:36.370,0:26:41.130
capturing this date means that data exists[br]and we don't who they might share it with.

0:26:41.130,0:26:45.409
---There is whole new business now, you[br]know, data brokers who drew upon, you

0:26:45.409,0:26:50.180
know, thousands of data points and create[br]client profiles to sell to companies. Now,

0:26:50.180,0:26:53.929
you don't really know what happens with[br]this kind of things. So it is hard to

0:26:53.929,0:26:59.870
tell, what the implications are until it[br]is too late. Until it happens.

0:26:59.870,0:27:03.850
---The Stasi compared to Google or[br]Facebook, where amateurs, the Stasi

0:27:03.850,0:27:10.570
actually had to use people to surcail you[br]to spy on you. That was expensive. It was

0:27:10.570,0:27:16.250
time consuming. They had to pick targets.[br]It was very expensive for them to have all

0:27:16.250,0:27:21.320
of these people spying on you. Facebook[br]and Google don't have to do that. They use

0:27:21.320,0:27:26.169
Algorithms, that's the mass in mass[br]surveillance. The fact that it is so

0:27:26.169,0:27:32.200
cheap, so convenient to spy on so many[br]people. And it's not a conspiracy theory.

0:27:32.200,0:27:36.179
You don't need conspiracies when you have[br]the simplicity of business models.

0:27:36.179,0:27:42.570
---When we talk about algorithms, we[br]actually talk about logic. When you want,

0:27:42.570,0:27:48.669
for example, buy a book on Amazon. You[br]have always seen a few other suggestions.

0:27:48.669,0:27:54.910
These suggestions are produced for you[br]based on the history of your preferences,

0:27:54.910,0:28:00.280
the history of your searches.[br]---They learn by making mistakes. And the

0:28:00.280,0:28:07.080
thing is, that's fine if it's like selling[br]dog feed. But it's about predictive

0:28:07.080,0:28:12.480
pollicing and about creating a matrix[br]where you see which individuals are

0:28:12.480,0:28:17.130
threatening, that's not ok for me. You[br]know, that has to be limits. There has to

0:28:17.130,0:28:22.360
be lines. And these are all the dynamics[br]that are coming from the bottom up. These

0:28:22.360,0:28:26.100
are the discussions that need to be had,[br]but they need to be had with all actors.

0:28:26.100,0:28:31.190
It's can't just be a an echo chamber. You[br]don't talk to the some people who agree

0:28:31.190,0:28:36.240
with you.[br]---So one consequence of this would be

0:28:36.240,0:28:42.690
many minorities or many people who have[br]minority views would be silenced. And we

0:28:42.690,0:28:47.400
always know that when a minority view is[br]silenced, it would empower them in a way

0:28:47.400,0:28:57.250
and it would radicalize them in the long[br]run. This is one aspect. The other is that

0:28:57.250,0:29:00.640
you would never be challenged by anyone,[br]who disagrees with you.

0:29:00.640,0:29:07.409
---We have to understand that our data is[br]not exhaust. Our data is not oil. Data is

0:29:07.409,0:29:13.460
people. You maybe not doing anything wrong[br]today, but maybe three governments from

0:29:13.460,0:29:19.151
now when they pass a certain law, what you[br]have done today might be illegal, for

0:29:19.151,0:29:24.530
example, and governments that keep that[br]data can look back over 10, 20 years and

0:29:24.530,0:29:33.289
maybe start prosecuting.[br]---When everything we buy, everything we

0:29:33.289,0:29:43.679
read, even the people we meet and date is[br]determined by this algorithms, I think the

0:29:43.679,0:29:49.581
amount of power that they exert on the[br]society and individuals in this society is

0:29:49.581,0:29:56.510
more than the state to the some degree.[br]And so there I think representatives

0:29:56.510,0:30:03.679
democracy have the duty to push the[br]government to open up these private

0:30:03.679,0:30:12.850
entities, to at least expose to some[br]degree how much control they exert.

0:30:12.850,0:30:14.510
---If you adopt the technological[br]perspective and realize that technology

0:30:14.510,0:30:19.059
will slip into our lives much more than is[br]already the case: Technically into our

0:30:19.059,0:30:22.620
bodies, our clothes, into devices that we[br]sit in an we're wearing, in all sorts of

0:30:22.620,0:30:32.220
areas of our coexistence and working life,[br]then that's definitely the wrong way to

0:30:32.220,0:30:35.360
go. Because it leads to a total[br]surveillance. And if you think about it

0:30:35.360,0:31:30.570
for a few minutes, you will realize that[br]the dichotomy is between control &

0:31:30.570,0:31:42.130
freedom. And a fully controlled society[br]cannot be free.

0:31:42.130,0:31:43.130
*post film music*[br][Filler please remove in amara]

0:31:43.130,0:31:52.630
Herald: Hello and welcome back from the[br]movie and know I welcome also our

0:31:52.630,0:32:09.110
producer. And. It was very. Oh, yeah,[br]showing very good. What information can do

0:32:09.110,0:32:16.190
and what could be done with information, I[br]give some people a bit more time to ask

0:32:16.190,0:32:27.779
more questions. And in the meantime, I[br]could ask, Oh, well, this is moving. Those

0:32:27.779,0:32:37.539
of these remote to your home was not shown[br]today for the first time. So what would

0:32:37.539,0:32:46.120
you do different or what you think has[br]maybe changed in the meanwhile since you

0:32:46.120,0:32:50.840
made it?[br]pandemonium: What I would change is I

0:32:50.840,0:32:59.890
would definitely try much harder to secure[br]funding to just simply make a better movie

0:32:59.890,0:33:05.440
and have more time and edited faster[br]because the editing process, because I had

0:33:05.440,0:33:12.429
to work on the side was quite long. And[br]this film, and the way it stands now, was

0:33:12.429,0:33:20.320
essentially only funded by a few very[br]great people who supported me on Patreon

0:33:20.320,0:33:26.539
and helped me with some of their private[br]money, essentially so that it was

0:33:26.539,0:33:30.280
essentially an almost no budget[br]production. So I would definitely change

0:33:30.280,0:33:36.730
that. But documentary seen in Germany[br]being what it is, it's very hard to secure

0:33:36.730,0:33:41.960
money if you're not attached to a TV[br]station or if you don't have a name yet.

0:33:41.960,0:33:47.100
And since I didn't have a name, but I[br]still want to make the movie, I made the

0:33:47.100,0:33:52.730
movie. I am still very happy with the[br]general direction of it. But of course,

0:33:52.730,0:34:00.860
since that was mainly shot in 2015 and[br]2016, some of the newer developments in

0:34:00.860,0:34:10.800
terms of especially biometric mass[br]surveillance and police. Especially in the

0:34:10.800,0:34:18.020
U.S., the way police uses body cams, etc.[br]is not really reflected. But I still think

0:34:18.020,0:34:25.370
that the I would still go with the whole[br]angle on colonialism and racism that is

0:34:25.370,0:34:30.889
deeply entrenched in the discussions[br]around surveillance and privacy. And we

0:34:30.889,0:34:36.220
can see that in discussions about shutting[br]down Telegram in Germany at the moment

0:34:36.220,0:34:42.050
because right wing groups the there we see[br]it in discussions about how to deal with

0:34:42.050,0:34:48.560
hate speech online on Facebook or the[br]Metaverse. And it's going to be called

0:34:48.560,0:34:53.900
Zoom. And all of these things are already[br]kind of in the movie, but I would have

0:34:53.900,0:35:00.880
probably focused a bit more on them if I'd[br]known. Six years ago what would happen and

0:35:00.880,0:35:06.920
if I would make it now? But generally, the[br]direction I would choose the same.

0:35:06.920,0:35:18.990
Herald: Yeah, it's quite fascinating. So[br]it was nearly no budget was so low, and it

0:35:18.990,0:35:28.890
was also an interesting point to entertain[br]now, because in principle, I understood

0:35:28.890,0:35:35.840
the ideas that body cams should create[br]actually a means of protecting people

0:35:35.840,0:35:42.190
against police and not the other way[br]around as it happens sometimes.

0:35:42.190,0:35:47.930
pandemonium: So there are definitely and[br]the problem with especially body cams or

0:35:47.930,0:35:55.200
also other of other means of surveillance[br]is that a video is always thought to be an

0:35:55.200,0:36:01.930
objective recording of the reality. But of[br]course, it always depends on the angle and

0:36:01.930,0:36:08.010
cases of body cams, quite literally the[br]angle, but also data interpretation. And

0:36:08.010,0:36:14.630
since humans are always full of biases and[br]always full of presumptions about who

0:36:14.630,0:36:21.380
might be in the right and who might be in[br]the wrong, these imagery, images or videos

0:36:21.380,0:36:25.180
tend to never, even if they would be[br]showing the objective truth, they're

0:36:25.180,0:36:31.990
barely ever interpret it that way. And[br]it's exactly the same with any sort of

0:36:31.990,0:36:38.890
film or photography that we're doing. I[br]mean, for this movie, I assembled a ton of

0:36:38.890,0:36:42.550
interviews and there were very long there[br]were several hours long in many cases, and

0:36:42.550,0:36:49.160
I could added probably 100 different[br]versions of this movie going essentially

0:36:49.160,0:36:58.569
almost opposite directions, exactly the[br]same material. It shows very strongly how

0:36:58.569,0:37:05.869
important it is, that at the end of the[br]day we overcome our biosies as judges, as

0:37:05.869,0:37:12.220
police people, as people walking on the[br]street an trying to overcome any sort of

0:37:12.220,0:37:22.480
surveillance on this impossible on the[br]technical level, is always connected with

0:37:22.480,0:37:32.160
the way, we understand world.[br]Herald: Yeah, this is, I also remember a

0:37:32.160,0:37:45.110
talk several years ago , it was about one[br]of "freiheit  statt Angst" Demonstrations

0:37:45.110,0:37:54.160
in Berlin. And there was also a case,[br]where the term was established, the guy

0:37:54.160,0:38:02.849
with a t-shirt got beaten by police and it[br]was very hard to assemble different videos

0:38:02.849,0:38:11.410
and to tell the whole story, what had[br]happened. You should be able to find that,

0:38:11.410,0:38:18.290
there was a talk , where this was[br]constructed somehow.

0:38:18.290,0:38:23.079
Producer: I will definitely looked that[br]up.

0:38:23.079,0:38:31.250
Herald. But I'm not sure about the year[br]anymore but you will find it. Now we have

0:38:31.250,0:38:38.040
a real question from the audience. The[br]first is, can I find the movie anywhere

0:38:38.040,0:38:42.790
and show it to somebody else?[br]Producer: Yes. It is on YouTube. *laugh*

0:38:42.790,0:38:46.099
Herald: Ok.[br]Producer: You can literally find it by

0:38:46.099,0:38:54.540
typing my name, which is Theresia[br]Reinhold. And you can find it.

0:38:54.540,0:39:07.590
Herald. ok. So, its very good. So, I hope[br]they are happy. Is the 21. Century

0:39:07.590,0:39:12.980
attention span for non-technical  friend[br]with biggest claim. I don't get the

0:39:12.980,0:39:35.650
questions. The Idea is: Is there a way of[br]explaining the non technical people, what

0:39:35.650,0:39:40.690
is the problem with "I do not have nothing[br]to hide".

0:39:40.690,0:39:48.070
Producer: If there is anything in your[br]life, where you are happy, no one is

0:39:48.070,0:39:52.760
watching you doing, whether it is  a[br]Century video, that a lot of people don't

0:39:52.760,0:40:01.050
know, that you are watching. Or singing in[br]the shower or anything, then that is your

0:40:01.050,0:40:13.109
absolute right that you are not. No one is[br]judging you on them, and that's the same

0:40:13.109,0:40:19.290
with mass surveillance and surfing online[br]or walking down the street. We have a very

0:40:19.290,0:40:26.630
basic comfort zone, should be protected.[br]Know we have a human right to privacy and

0:40:26.630,0:40:31.130
whether it's in a technical room or in an[br]analog room, like being in a shopping mall

0:40:31.130,0:40:34.660
and picking up, I don't know whatever you[br]don't want other people to know that

0:40:34.660,0:40:40.390
you're buying. You should have the right[br]to do that in private and not have it be

0:40:40.390,0:40:45.500
known to other people. And when we are[br]surfing the internet, everything we do is

0:40:45.500,0:40:54.280
constantly analyzed and watched in real[br]time and you notice our movements online

0:40:54.280,0:41:00.119
are sold to the highest bidder and as a[br]whole, massive advertising industry behind

0:41:00.119,0:41:08.609
it. And that's just immoral because humans[br]should have always the ability to share

0:41:08.609,0:41:15.532
only what they want to share. That's how I[br]try to explain it to non tech people. And

0:41:15.532,0:41:17.550
if they're not tech, people from the[br]former east, is just here to move to Stasi

0:41:17.550,0:41:20.620
and they know exactly what you're talking[br]about.

0:41:20.620,0:41:27.109
Herald: Yes, thanks for this explanation[br]again. And I think also what is important,

0:41:27.109,0:41:34.220
what was also mentioned in the movie is[br]the thing with that is and speak, since it

0:41:34.220,0:41:41.420
can be stored now that it's so that future[br]can haunt your history. Kind of.

0:41:41.420,0:41:47.510
pandemonium. Yeah.[br]Herald:  And actually, the question was

0:41:47.510,0:41:58.400
now be more precise. And actually, it was[br]not what I asked you *Laughs*. Actually is

0:41:58.400,0:42:06.880
the question of whether there is or there[br]could be a short teaser that people could

0:42:06.880,0:42:12.260
send to your friends to two of their[br]friends to to watch the whole movie?

0:42:12.260,0:42:15.630
*laughs*[br]Reinhold: Oh yes, there is. And that is

0:42:15.630,0:42:20.119
also on YouTube and on Vimeo. OK, sorry.[br]Yes. *Laugh*

0:42:20.119,0:42:27.320
Herald: Well, I also didn't get it from[br]the question. So OK, so people will find

0:42:27.320,0:42:34.410
it very good. So then I guess we are[br]through with the questions, and I thank

0:42:34.410,0:42:46.760
you again for your nice movie and for[br]being here. Yeah, and. Then this talk is

0:42:46.760,0:42:57.010
over here. Chaos zone a TV comes back to[br]you at four p.m. with the talk "tales from

0:42:57.010,0:43:05.170
the quantum industry" until then? Oh yeah.[br]Which some other streams go to the world

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or. Have some lunch. See you.[br][Filler please remove in amara]

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*post roll music*[br][Filler please remove in amara]

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