36C3 preroll music
Herald: Next is Bijan. Bijan. Bijan, I
pronounce this. Pretty persian. Yeah. He's
an attorney, ein Rechtsanwalt it is called in
deutsch, and he works for the Gesellschaft
für Freiheitsrechte in Berlin. If I'm
right. Good. Give them a welcome.
applause, please. It's early in the
morning. We're going to kick back here.
applause
Bijan: Early in the morning, only at the
Congress you can call 12:30 early in the
morning, but it is. And, um, well, if
you've ever sat on a plane and wondered
what the person three rows behind you is
eating, whether they flying alone, whether
they have checked in their luggage or only
hand luggage and what visa they were using
when they were buying their plane ticket,
then you're probably a police officer or
should join the national police of any EU
member state, because that is exactly what
the national polices in Germany and
Austria and other Europeans member states,
Europe, member states of the European
Union, can do. Thanks to the PNR
directive, which is the topic of today's
talk. And we are going to talk and explain
to you what the PNR directive and the laws
transposing it into national law are all
about, why this is problematic and what we
can do and what we are actually doing
against it in order to stop it. And Walter
will start off with a few infos.
Walter: Yeah. Hello. So firstly, I would
like to introduce into Epicenter Works,
because we have already a history on
bringing down data retention laws. So
probably you know us from our fight
against data retention in Europe when we
still were called "AKA Vorrat Österreich".
I am working for Epicenter Works on a
voluntary basis. And I would like to
mention my colleague Angelika Adensamer
who did the main work on this for
Epicenter Works. But she cannot be at
Congress this year. So, flight data. It is
said, I've heard that at any given point
in time, one million people are on a plane
in the skies flying around the globe. As
you can see here. And today, although in
times of resource exhaustion, we should
talk about that anyway. I am convinced
today we are talking about the data
protection issue about it. A big one. And
we are talking about passenger name
records. So what is a passenger name
record, anyway? A passenger name record,
as you can see here, is a data set
compiled of 19 different data fields. So
you can get about up to 60 different data
points on one single passenger on one
single flight. So, for instance, you have
data in there like the first and second
name, address, but also other things,
metadata. More important things, like the
means of payment you made, the point in
time when you booked the flight and things
like that. And as a specific problem about
it is that there is also a free text field
so airline employees can enter data there
and which we cannot control. And
altogether we have a quite big data set of
each passenger on each flight. So this is
common in the airline industry. But in
2016, the PNR directive came about. So
what is the PNR directive? It is a piece
of European legislation , which was
enacted in April 2016. And when we have
European legislation, it's important to
mention that it doesn't come out of the
blue out of Brussels, but it is enacted
together with from the commission, the
European Parliament and the council. And
the council are the governments of our
member states. So we have to keep in mind
that member states governments, have a
big say when things like this are enacted.
And it is a directive. And that means that
every single member state has to transpose
the content of the directive into its
national law. And this had to be done
until the 25th May of 2018. This was the
the tenth transposition deadline. And for
instance, Austria and Germany made laws to
transpose that into their national law. So
what had they to enact? They had to enact
laws prescribing that all airlines have to
transfer data of all passengers, all
passenger name records of every flight,
and they have to be pushed to a national
police database. So unlike the telecom
data retention I already mentioned, the
data is not kept where it where where it
is created. But it has to be pushed from
the private sector, from the airlines, to
police database, databases. And the data
retention directive prescribes that every
flight leaving or entering the European
Union must be covered by that. But in
addition, every single member state also
covered flights within the EU. So you have
we have the full take now. Flights within
the EU as well as flights leaving or
entering the EU. And every single record
of every single passenger of every single
flight is in a police database and will be
compared with existing databases, for
instance, of known criminals or of stolen
passports and the like. And they try to
find matches there. And what they are also
going to do is matching with predetermined
criteria. So they will come up with flight
patterns of known perpetrators, for
instance, when they booked a flight and so
on. They will algorithmically try to find
patterns there, and then they will compare
your flight passenger name records with
that data. And if you have a similar
behavior, than a previous perpetrator,
previous criminal, for instance, then
you're already under suspicion. And this
data in these databases are stored for
five years and can be further used by
different law enforcement agencies. So
that data is not only compared and then
deleted again. The storage time is five
years and they do something called
depersonalization about six months after
the data was created. But this is not in
any way an anonymisation, but they just
remove some data and it can easily be
identified again. So the person the data
belongs to can easily be identified for
the whole period of five years. So you
probably asked yourself already: First, is
this effective? Well, this runs already
since last year, so we have some data.
First, I will present to you the data from
Austria. In Austria, we found out that
already until the 30th of September, 2019,
almost 24 passenger name records where
forwarded to the passenger name unit at
the Bundeskriminalamt and
11 900 000 thousand different people
were subject to that. And of these, almost
24 000 000 passenger name records, the
algorithms that checking against databases
already brought up 190 000
matches. So every single match,
every single output the algorithm has,
must be checked by a human employee. So we
have sitting there people who have to
check. Even this is not even the data of a
year. And they have to check
190 000 matches and only 280
of them are actual hits. So if a person
checks what the algorithm outputs there,
then only in 0.15% of the cases
the policewoman or policeman
come to their conclusion: This is actually
relevant for us. And if you do the math,
this means that only 0.001% percent of all
that 24 million passenger name data, your
data which is checked, actually leads to a
hit. And we don't even know how many
actual false positives remain in these
220. This is only what the police will
inspect afterwards. So we have no numbers
or results if they had actual
investigative results on that. But what we
can say is that there are 21 employees,
qualified employees, working in the
passenger name, Passenger Information Unit,
and this costs almost 2 million euros per
year and only for checking that data in
the small country of Austria. And Bijan
now will present to you the data in German.
Bijan: The number, the data of the big
neighbor, because you said small country
Austria. In Germany the numbers are
surprisingly similar. We also had - have
numbers up until mid of August 2019, and
we have had almost 32 million passenger
name records checked, which generated
automatic results of matches of about
240 000, which then were checked by 40
police officers and there remained only
910 actual hits. So the fail rate was
99.6% and 0.003% all PNRs checked led to
actual hits. And even of that number, just
as in Austria, we are not sure how many
false positives remain. We know that there
were considerably a considerable amount of
false positives. We estimate them to be in
the hundreds. But the law enforcement did
not specify what actually, how many
supposed positives remained, even among
the 910. And one of the results we know is
that it led to 57 arrests. We don't know
for which crimes. We don't know whether
these people actually committed a crime,
whether they were suspected for crime,
whether they were just on a watch list.
But 57 arrests, assuming this is these
were legitimate, this means that 0.0002%
of all PNRs checked led to an arrest. And
if you try to to transpose this to other
situations in life, you could go to a to a
market, to to some, uh, to some festival
or what not, and just ask randomly people,
and you would probably have with a similar
probability, an arrest in the end at the
end of the day. So if this holds that this
whole PNR processing holds is this
effectiveness is the standard that we are
happy with, then you can easily take this
to all other sorts of walks of life. And
this is true, in our opinion, a big
problem, because it will lead to a digital
surveillance state, which is has come
quite near with these new tools that the
PNR directive provide. What we've now just
shown are the the automatic is the checks
against databases. That was the one thing
that the PNR directive provides for. The
other one is the checking against
predetermined criteria. And this is where
the voodoo kind of starts, because the
idea that you can merely from the data
that is in the PNR, in your passenger name
record, derive whether you are suspicious,
or dangerous even is, at least in our
opinion, pretty much voodoo, and it has
serious consequences. And it might lead to
automatic profiling affecting hundreds of
millions of people, possibly, because
everybody is checked when they and when
they use a plane. Everybody PNR record is
checked against these automatic , against
these predetermined criteria, and not just
for crimes such as terrorism or organized
crime, where you could maybe make a case
that there exists such a thing as a
pattern of movements where you can
identify a terrorist suspect, but it is
also used for crimes such as fraud or
forgery or cyber crime where I would argue
you cannot find the typical cyber
criminals flight pattern, flight patterns.
It's just not possible. And so but but the
PNR directive itself is only the one
thing. We are fighting this for reasons
that go way beyond the PNR processing so
the processing of PNR flight data, because
it may set a dangerous precedent for other
mass surveillance. Already now PNR
processing is being discussed for buses
that cross borders, for ships and trains.
And there are some countries such as
Belgium that have already enacted the very
much. And why stop there, might a police
officer argue. Why not include rental cars
that cross borders? Why not at some point
include private cars that cross borders?
Why not get away with that requirement of
crossing borders? Why not have everybody
checked all the time, maybe via their
mobile phones? So when we give way to this
sort of data processing with such a low
threshold of effectiveness, we open the
door for all sorts of, um, of activity
that at least from our point of view, is
illegal. And the question you were maybe
asking yourself or maybe not. Is this
legal? We are convinced it is not. And
luckily, we could rely on a legal opinion
that the European Court of Justice ECJ has
rendered a two and a half years ago. There
is one PNR agreement in place between the
EU and the USA, which has not been
challenged yet. And another agreement was
supposed to be known or was negotiated
between the EU Commission and Canada, and
the EU Parliament then presented the
question to the ECJ whether this agreement
would be violating fundamental rights of
the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the
European Union. And the ECJ concluded that
it would, in the form that it was proposed
to it, breach Article 7 and 8 of that
charter's. Article 7 as the right to
privacy in Article 8 is the right to have
your data protected, your personal data
protected. And we are, of course, relying
heavily on that, on the arguments that the
court developed and developing them even
further, because; as you can imagine, the
PNR, the agreement with Canada and the PNR
directive are quite similar. So what are
these arguments that we are bringing up?
And we've shown already that the
effectiveness is highly doubtful. And this
leads us to concluding that the PNR
directive is disproportionate. So it
violates human fundamental rights. For
several reasons. One being a point that
we've both raised already that PNR
processing indiscriminately affects all
passengers. And this is a very important
point, because it makes it shows the
difference between PNR processing under
the PNR directive and what was formerly
the the data retention of
telecommunications data. Because the
latter would require a specific case,
something must have had happened in order
for the law enforcement to ask for the
telecommunications data of the
telecommunications provider. But our
PNR data on flights is checked all the
time, always, against databases, and even
more importantly, the predetermined
criteria, which we, of course, do not know
nothing about. And this brings with it
especially the last point, the
predetermined criteria, are high risk of
false accusations. We've already seen that
99.6% of data base matching, automatic
data is matching is wrongful. And imagine
how much higher the number would be with
checking against predetermined criteria.
And that the reason why we expect many
false accusations, false positives, is the
so-called base rate fallacy, which
basically says that when you're looking
for a very small amount of people in a
large dataset and you have a significant
fail rate, you're very likely to produce
more false positives, maybe many more
false positives than true positives. So
actual suspects, or not suspects, but
actual terrorists. So, for instance, when
you if you're checking 100 million flight
passengers. And you're looking for 100
terrorists, and you have even a fail rate
of 0.1%, not the 99.6 that we're talking
about now, but even just 0.1%, this would
render this would this would render
100 000 flight passengers subject to to
to being suspected terrorists. So you
would have 100 000 false positives, 100
terrorists that let's assume all of them
so that they had a positive success rate
of 100 percent identifying positively as a
terrorist suspect. Then you will have
100 000 false positives, 100 people that
are correctly suspected. But everybody, of
course, will be treated the same. And what
I've listed here are just the obvious
things, stigmatization at the airport by
interrogation, searches of luggage of
people and arrests, missing flights.
And depending on the country
you're in you may be in much more trouble
after that. The second point is that the
data is being stored way too long. As
Walter has already mentioned 5 years. Why
do you need 5 years worth of data to check
a database entry or against a
predetermined criteria? Of course, you
don't needed it for that. Because you
could do that immediately after a person
has boarded. You can perform the check and
then you could get rid of the data, delete
it after it's being used. The reason why
they're storing it so long as that law
enforcement and intelligence agencies have
an interest that goes beyond that checking
after boarding, they want to keep the data
and check it in future, criminal
investigations in future, looking into a
person, what where they've traveled and so
on and so forth. But that has nothing to
do with the original purpose of PNR, the
PNR directive. And what at least everybody
here will know in all data storing, so
data storing is in itself a problem. It's
in itself a violation of fundamental
rights when there is no legitimate reason
to do so. But also all data storage puts
the data stored at risk. And as we've
mentioned already, there's the payment
data, especially there's other other
sensitive data with whom you've traveled,
whether you've traveled with light luggage
or not, where you have gone to, via which
place and so on and so forth. Another
point, which is a bit more complicated is
that the director does not sufficiently
differentiate between crimes where
automatic profiling could make sense and
others. So as I have said, there may be a
point in saying that the typical
terrorists would fly from A to B via C
without checking in luggage using this or
that tourist office and so on and so
forth. So maybe just assume that this is
the case. This, no one can can tell me
that there is a typical flight pattern of
a fraudster where you could ask someone
define which way a fraudster typically
flies and identify such a person. So what
the directive would have needed to do if
they wanted had wanted to check against
predetermined criteria would have been to
identify for which crimes - exactly, and
only for these - you can use such a voodoo
miracle weapon. And finally, these are not
the only arguments, but the more most
important ones. We expect that the false
positives especially will lead to
discrimination against minorities. And one
example that the German National Police,
the Bundeskriminalamt has given us for a
predetermined criteria are young men
flying from airports from the south of
Turkey to a major European city. So
they're thinking about former IS fighters,
IS terrorists. And as you can easily
imagine what kind of people will be
sitting in in in a on a plane that's
coming from the south of Turkey to Germany
or to any other European country. Of
course, this will affect them
disproportionately, affect minorities. And
it is already now highly intransparent
what how these these predetermined
criteria are developed. And imagine a near
future where law enforcement will
naturally try to involve artificial
intelligence and finding patterns in the
raw data of flight movements of PNR data,
of the treasure they're now hoarding with
a five year worth of data. And at the
latest, at that point in time, it will be
impossible for us to understand why a
certain criterion was defined and how how
to challenge it when you're in the
position to be arrested at the airport,
for instance. So what can we do? And
that's where we come in. The two
organizations that we are. We are no
typical advocacy organizations, but we do
strategic litigation. Because
unfortunately no advocacy worked on the
PNR directive. It came into force pretty
much as the, um, as national law
enforcement wanted it to be. And so there
is one instance, one authority at the time
that in Europe, in Germany, in Europe, the
European Union, the courts, which can
which can ideally, um, dismiss of the
reasons of the motivations of law
enforcement to have such a directive
enforced and can try to objectively assess
whether this is actually legal and should
remain in force, stay in force or not. And
we did this through litigation both in
Germany and in Austria, and both are
having the same goal, which is to present
to the European Court of Justice the
question whether the PNR directive and any
national law that is transposing the PNR
directive is in violation of the Charter
of Fundamental Rights. Why do we have to
go? Why is the ECJ important? Because when
you have a national law that directly
transposes a European law, a directive,
then then only the ECJ can declare such a
law void. There is no way for, for
instance, in Germany, the federal
constitutional court, the
Bundesverfassungsgericht, to say that this
law should not be applied any longer. This
question must be presented to the ECJ. So
how could we get to the ECJ? This actually
was a process that took us quite a bit of
time. It's been two years in the making. A
year ago, we launched six different
complaints of six different plaintiffs
that are flying all over Europe, that we
booked flights for them that led them to a
European member states, a European Union
member states and two states outside of
the European Union. And we sent the
complaints to three different courts. The
one, two complaints were directed against
the German national police and went to the
administrative court in Wiesbaden, and
four others were directed against the
airplane airlines. So we tried to
diversify as much as possible in order to
find a judge that would agree with us that
this is problematic and this needs
checking. And we are optimistic that
either the court in Wiesbaden or the court
in Cologne will soon present these very
questions to the court, whether the German
transposition law and the PNR directive
itself are violating fundamental rights
after European of the Charter of the
European Union.
Walter: So as Bijan already mentioned, our
aim is to bring our case as quick as
possible to the European Court of Justice.
So we had different options. And in Austria,
we went a third way. We brought a case
before the Austrian Data Protection Authority
against the Fluggastdatenzentralstelle
im Bundeskriminalamt, a passenger
named unit. And we we brought several
different cases and we also found out that
different, smaller things which we are on.
But the main thing is that this case
already went as planned to the
Bundesverwaltungsgericht, so the federal
administrative court in Austria. And from
there, we hope that is also soon forwarded
to the European Court of Justice. And
theoretically, it would be enough if one
case hits the European Court of Justice.
But practically, it is, of course, very
important to have different strategies
because there are different speeds and so
on. So that's why we also should mention
another case, the the Belgian case. So
this Belgian human rights organization,
they also brought the case before a
Belgian court. In this case, it was
directly the Belgian constitutional court.
So they had a direct way to the
constitutional court, unlike our cases in
Austria, where this or in Germany where
this was not possible. And therefore, the
Belgian constitutional court already
referred this case to the European Court
of Justice. And we are hoping that our
case will be soon or cases, or at least
some of them will soon be joined with this
case at the European Court of Justice, and
then decided together. So to sum up, we
have actually a very infringing piece of
legislation the PNR directive, PNR
processing, as Bijan explained to us in
more detail, is extremely intrusive in all
flight passengers' fundamental rights. It
violates fundamental rights, especially
because it is already... is also
ineffective and disproportionate. So we
heard about these different things. The
base rate fallacy that it is ineffective
and disproportionate because it is not
really possible to find specific suspects
in such amount of data with without having
a lot, a real lot of false positives. So
other arguments are that it is data
retention in the first place. So also
already the retention of the data of
people like you and me is a big problem
and unlawful. And this general suspicion
it leads to. So everybody becomes a
suspect and can become practically a
suspect, can get problems practically from
that legislation without being a criminal.
And yeah, we have strong arguments as we
showed you already, the case of the Canada
PNR directive, the PNR agreement with
Canada is very similar in practice to the
PNR directive. So the arguments already
held before the European Court of Justice.
So actually, it's a shame that this was
not stopped earlier. And civil rights
organizations as we are have to do that.
And that's what we do. And that's also why
we depend on donations. So that's also
important to stress that our work people
having people fully employed to do things
like that cost some money. And that's
where you can find us. So we have a
campaign website, nopnr.eu in German
and English. And you can find us, of
course, on our website and both websites
and find ways how to join us, how to
support us. And also still today, you can
meet us at our assembly in the CCL
building the about freedom assembly, where
both the Gesellschaft für Freiheitsrechte
and Epicentre Works have their desk and
you can ask all the question. But first,
ask all your questions now. Thank you.
Applause
Herald: Thank you, Walter and Bijan, for
this very clarifying statements. I suppose
there are quite some questions here in the
audience. Only I'm looking at someone
who's grabbing a microphone now. I see the
signal angel. Yes. The mic is not on. Can
someone help him? Signal Angel needs a mic.
Yes, it's almost there. Brains are
working.
Signal Angel: Thank you. Is there a cheap
method to spam for some trees, for
example, by booking flight under a false
name and then canceling the flight?
Bijan: Well, I think it's it's difficult
to say. I didn't get the very first words.
Sorry.
Signal Angel: Yes, the very first one was:
is there a cheap method to spam, to spam
for some trees?
Bijan: Yeah. Theoretically, I don't think
that anything could speak against that.
Yeah, but the problem is that you would
need to cancel very late because, um, I
think the first time they push the data,
the airlines are pushing the data to the
national police is, 48 hours before the
before boarding. So that might come to
become a bit expensive.
Laughter
Walter: I would want to make a general
remark also on that. Of course, here,
especially here, thoughts like that, how
to hack the system are very important and
can help. But our general approach is to
take legal action to protect all people at
the same way, and not only those who who
are able to protect themselves or hack the
system or whatever. So that's the reason
why we both go this general way to bring
that down. Completely.
Herald: And other question here. Yes.
Sorry, sir. Please.
Q: What do you expect as a result of your
litigation if you are successful in court?
Will ... do you expect the courts to
strike down the directive entirely, or do
you expect another legislative process to
do the same thing again or to fix, quote
unquote, the directive in very small ways
just to to drag out this battle and
continue the practice. What do you think
the effects will be?
Bijan: Well, we think that the European
Court of Justice, if it follows our
argument, our reasoning, it should it will
strike down the PNR directive entirely,
because the way it is set up is
fundamentally not in in accordance with
what it earlier ruled so far. Unless it
will change its its entire history of
ruling on data retention and so on and so
forth. But of course, we will expect the
member states to push for another
legislation that may be similar, but not
the exact same thing. So I can imagine
something of a of the sort of data
retention of telecommunications, as it
were, and with airlines retaining the data
and keeping it for a shorter period of
time and only giving it out when there is
a specific request with, where there is a
specific reason for law enforcement to ask
for the data. I could imagine such a thing
coming up again and then we would need to
check whether this is illegal or not. And
maybe go through the whole procedure as
well. But it is it would be an immense
success if the PNR directive as it stands
would be void. Declared void.
Herald: Thank you. Someone else has a
question. I see the person here.
Microphone one, please.
Q: Hel-lo, yeah. Okay, so you had the
agreement that, uh, there are a lot of
false positives when they checked up PNR
data. Um, do we have any information how
long it takes for them to react on the PNR
data if they get a positive hit? So maybe
they won't react after the person has
landed and already, uh, is in the country?
Bijan: They claim that they can act
immediately, but we can't know that for
sure. So the fact that they had 57 arrests
at the airports signals that at least that
in some respects this is true. But we
cannot know for sure how much, how quickly
they they they kind of react. And keep in
mind, this is only the start. So, so far
in Germany, right up until the point where
this the data that I presented for Germany
came about, there were only 9 airlines, I
think, that were linked to the system. So
expect there to be much more data coming
in. And once they start with a
predetermined criteria thing, this will
multiply probably. Um, even so, I cannot
imagine unless they they ... have this
new, um, thing with hundreds of people
involved that they can act immediately in
each and every case.
Herald: Thank you. There is a question
again on the Internet. Yes.
Signal Angel: Yes. How come, you haven't
tried voiding the local at one provisions
that this PNR there for intra EU flights? (???)
That seems most likely against Schengen
provisions.
Bijan: We have addressed that as well. We
have picked intra-EU flights also. We have
not just picked flights that go extra EU,
but, we've also made the point about the
the violation of Schengen criteria. But
that is not so much that is not the focus
of our argument because they are, in our
opinion, much stronger ones. Because with
Schengen you would need to argue that it's
practically impossible to enter the
country without being held up and you're
not being held up in a physical form, at
least not in general, generally. And so
this argument is a bit more difficult than
having an actual border checking of
people. But we're making this point, of
course. And but we rely on other points
that we think are stronger.
Herald: Okay. Please. Microphone number
one, please.
Q: Is there also data being collected on
flights inside a country. So, for example,
from Munich to Berlin.
Bijan: Not yet. Not under the directive.
And theoretically, of course, that the
German legislator or any other legislator
could decide to include that as well, but
not so far.
Herald: Number two, please. Microphone.
Yeah.
Q: I was wondering how much, uh, false
negatives are in there. You know, that,
like, uh, these big databases. If I don't
act like a normal terrorist or something
than I am?
Bijan: We don't we don't know,
unfortunately, not yet. Um, I did. I think
it would be very interesting, especially
for the predetermined criteria , to see
how many they miss. Um, but yeah. No, not
nothing at.
Herald: Yeah, and there is no undo button,
I think. No. No. No undo. That's always
the thing that I that I'm worried about,
you know. Then you have an announcement
about France's data that go out and then
you can't have an undo. So what do we do
then? It's always new. Yeah, you can keep
this for five years now. But who says it's
there for five years and what kind of
interpretation to get out of it for five
years? After five years?
Bijan: You can't know in
which database you will be transferred in
the meantime, because law enforcement can
access the data of that very data set and
forth for that data and the PNR data set
and put it in another data set because
they have whatever reason to do so. And
then these are again enlarged and
enlarged. And then you will find another
reason why they should remain in there for
a longer time. So, yeah. That's why we're
fighting this now and hoping to change the
future.
Herald: How do you see your chances?
Actually, uh, a long term or short term
chances to get to that point is that?
Bijan: We are very convinced that we will
be successful, because otherwise we
wouldn't have started this. This is one of
our principles. We only do things that we
are convinced of being able to win and we
think that we will win this. And what will
come out of it? Referring to the I think
the second and the second question
earlier. And what will be happening in the
future with other legislation? I can't
know. But one argument the police is
always making or in private, at least to
me, are is that they're saying, well,
people will get used to it and it won't be
in in five or 10 years. Nobody's gonna be
wondering about things like this. And this
is exactly what we are working against,
that this never becomes normal, because if
this becomes normal, as I've argued
before,
applause
Herald: needs an applause Yes.
Bijan: If it becomes normal, as I've
argued before, it is easy to extend it to
all sorts of life and ways of life and
walks of life. And this then would be in a
surveillance state par excellence.
Herald: We were very close there. So we
need to support them really hard. There is
one last question I suggest. No. There is
two questions. Number two. Yes.
Q: Does the PNR directive apply only for
regular scheduled flights? So does it also
apply for private flights? The general
aviation business flights, etc.?
Bijan: Good question. I don't know.
Actually, I look into that and. Write me!
Come, come here later and I'll check and
I'll give you an answer.
Herald: Then there is one at number one.
Q: I just wanted to ask a question in
response to the idea that this is becoming
very normal, because one thing that I
think has become very normal that hasn't
been mentioned explicitly is the idea that
people can be essentially put on a watch
list as being a potential criminal in the
absence of a crime. And we have these
terrorist watch lists all over the world
now. That is now the new normal. And I
think that's very problematic. And can you
just maybe talk about: Do we, do you see a
future where we can actually get back to,
you know, only arresting or investigating
people because of probable cause, for
example?
Bijan: Oh, I hope that this will be our
future. But, uh, about that point, that
very point, I'm not too optimistic, to be
honest. I am optimistic about one other
one. Another thing that is that these
instruments that are now being created
will prove to be highly ineffective, as
we've so now see now already with checking
against databases, that is already a lot
of work and very tedious work. But with
the idea that you can define criteria for
people that that are legitimately to be
suspected of committing a crime in the
future, I think it will prove, at least
for the next few decades, to be quite
impossible. And this is I don't know if
this came across correctly sufficiently,
but this is really the core issue that we
have with the PNR directive. They are
claiming that they can find suspects of
crimes or future crimes. Imagine! Not not
someone that has committed a crime or that
will definitely commit a crime, but that
can reasonably be suspected of committing
a crime in the future, and then act upon
that. And that is really a huge step into
what I called voodoo, about the
expectation that you can take data and
prevent crime. Minority Report times.
Yeah. To the power five. I don't know.
Herald: Sit back and relax. Thank you
Bijan and thank you, Walter, for this
fantastic lecture. Please support them at
noPNR dot EU, go to their booth as well.
And thank you all.
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