[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.00,0:00:18.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1} 36C3 preroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:18.88,0:00:25.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Next is Bijan. Bijan. Bijan, I \Npronounce this. Pretty persian. Yeah. He's
Dialogue: 0,0:00:25.80,0:00:32.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an attorney, ein Rechtsanwalt it is called in\Ndeutsch, and he works for the Gesellschaft
Dialogue: 0,0:00:32.73,0:00:37.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,für Freiheitsrechte in Berlin. If I'm\Nright. Good. Give them a welcome.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:37.97,0:00:42.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,applause, please. It's early in the\Nmorning. We're going to kick back here.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:42.37,0:00:46.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:46.46,0:00:51.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bijan: Early in the morning, only at the\NCongress you can call 12:30 early in the
Dialogue: 0,0:00:51.39,0:00:57.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,morning, but it is. And, um, well, if\Nyou've ever sat on a plane and wondered
Dialogue: 0,0:00:57.46,0:01:02.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what the person three rows behind you is\Neating, whether they flying alone, whether
Dialogue: 0,0:01:02.35,0:01:07.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they have checked in their luggage or only\Nhand luggage and what visa they were using
Dialogue: 0,0:01:07.05,0:01:12.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when they were buying their plane ticket,\Nthen you're probably a police officer or
Dialogue: 0,0:01:12.51,0:01:16.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,should join the national police of any EU\Nmember state, because that is exactly what
Dialogue: 0,0:01:16.91,0:01:21.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the national polices in Germany and\NAustria and other Europeans member states,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:21.67,0:01:25.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Europe, member states of the European\NUnion, can do. Thanks to the PNR
Dialogue: 0,0:01:25.69,0:01:30.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,directive, which is the topic of today's\Ntalk. And we are going to talk and explain
Dialogue: 0,0:01:30.48,0:01:35.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to you what the PNR directive and the laws\Ntransposing it into national law are all
Dialogue: 0,0:01:35.72,0:01:40.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about, why this is problematic and what we\Ncan do and what we are actually doing
Dialogue: 0,0:01:40.89,0:01:46.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against it in order to stop it. And Walter\Nwill start off with a few infos.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:46.78,0:01:53.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Walter: Yeah. Hello. So firstly, I would\Nlike to introduce into Epicenter Works,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:53.30,0:01:58.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we have already a history on\Nbringing down data retention laws. So
Dialogue: 0,0:01:58.92,0:02:03.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably you know us from our fight\Nagainst data retention in Europe when we
Dialogue: 0,0:02:03.96,0:02:08.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,still were called "AKA Vorrat Österreich".\NI am working for Epicenter Works on a
Dialogue: 0,0:02:08.43,0:02:14.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,voluntary basis. And I would like to\Nmention my colleague Angelika Adensamer
Dialogue: 0,0:02:14.61,0:02:19.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who did the main work on this for\NEpicenter Works. But she cannot be at
Dialogue: 0,0:02:19.80,0:02:31.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Congress this year. So, flight data. It is\Nsaid, I've heard that at any given point
Dialogue: 0,0:02:31.13,0:02:38.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in time, one million people are on a plane\Nin the skies flying around the globe. As
Dialogue: 0,0:02:38.55,0:02:47.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can see here. And today, although in\Ntimes of resource exhaustion, we should
Dialogue: 0,0:02:47.38,0:02:52.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talk about that anyway. I am convinced\Ntoday we are talking about the data
Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.96,0:03:00.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,protection issue about it. A big one. And\Nwe are talking about passenger name
Dialogue: 0,0:03:00.37,0:03:07.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,records. So what is a passenger name\Nrecord, anyway? A passenger name record,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:07.56,0:03:19.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as you can see here, is a data set\Ncompiled of 19 different data fields. So
Dialogue: 0,0:03:19.36,0:03:26.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can get about up to 60 different data\Npoints on one single passenger on one
Dialogue: 0,0:03:26.00,0:03:31.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,single flight. So, for instance, you have\Ndata in there like the first and second
Dialogue: 0,0:03:31.55,0:03:40.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,name, address, but also other things,\Nmetadata. More important things, like the
Dialogue: 0,0:03:40.11,0:03:47.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,means of payment you made, the point in\Ntime when you booked the flight and things
Dialogue: 0,0:03:47.34,0:03:54.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like that. And as a specific problem about\Nit is that there is also a free text field
Dialogue: 0,0:03:54.28,0:04:02.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so airline employees can enter data there\Nand which we cannot control. And
Dialogue: 0,0:04:02.17,0:04:11.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,altogether we have a quite big data set of\Neach passenger on each flight. So this is
Dialogue: 0,0:04:11.74,0:04:19.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,common in the airline industry. But in\N2016, the PNR directive came about. So
Dialogue: 0,0:04:19.92,0:04:26.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what is the PNR directive? It is a piece\Nof European legislation , which was
Dialogue: 0,0:04:26.38,0:04:35.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enacted in April 2016. And when we have\NEuropean legislation, it's important to
Dialogue: 0,0:04:35.08,0:04:41.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mention that it doesn't come out of the\Nblue out of Brussels, but it is enacted
Dialogue: 0,0:04:41.98,0:04:49.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,together with from the commission, the\NEuropean Parliament and the council. And
Dialogue: 0,0:04:49.56,0:04:56.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the council are the governments of our\Nmember states. So we have to keep in mind
Dialogue: 0,0:04:56.07,0:05:03.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that member states governments, have a\Nbig say when things like this are enacted.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:03.02,0:05:10.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it is a directive. And that means that\Nevery single member state has to transpose
Dialogue: 0,0:05:10.76,0:05:16.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the content of the directive into its\Nnational law. And this had to be done
Dialogue: 0,0:05:16.98,0:05:24.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,until the 25th May of 2018. This was the\Nthe tenth transposition deadline. And for
Dialogue: 0,0:05:24.82,0:05:32.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,instance, Austria and Germany made laws to\Ntranspose that into their national law. So
Dialogue: 0,0:05:32.66,0:05:43.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what had they to enact? They had to enact\Nlaws prescribing that all airlines have to
Dialogue: 0,0:05:43.59,0:05:51.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transfer data of all passengers, all\Npassenger name records of every flight,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:51.99,0:05:59.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they have to be pushed to a national\Npolice database. So unlike the telecom
Dialogue: 0,0:05:59.10,0:06:06.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data retention I already mentioned, the\Ndata is not kept where it where where it
Dialogue: 0,0:06:06.29,0:06:11.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is created. But it has to be pushed from\Nthe private sector, from the airlines, to
Dialogue: 0,0:06:11.38,0:06:21.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,police database, databases. And the data\Nretention directive prescribes that every
Dialogue: 0,0:06:21.06,0:06:26.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,flight leaving or entering the European\NUnion must be covered by that. But in
Dialogue: 0,0:06:26.79,0:06:32.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,addition, every single member state also\Ncovered flights within the EU. So you have
Dialogue: 0,0:06:32.65,0:06:37.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have the full take now. Flights within\Nthe EU as well as flights leaving or
Dialogue: 0,0:06:37.88,0:06:46.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,entering the EU. And every single record\Nof every single passenger of every single
Dialogue: 0,0:06:46.06,0:06:55.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,flight is in a police database and will be\Ncompared with existing databases, for
Dialogue: 0,0:06:55.41,0:07:02.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,instance, of known criminals or of stolen\Npassports and the like. And they try to
Dialogue: 0,0:07:02.57,0:07:10.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,find matches there. And what they are also\Ngoing to do is matching with predetermined
Dialogue: 0,0:07:10.56,0:07:16.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,criteria. So they will come up with flight\Npatterns of known perpetrators, for
Dialogue: 0,0:07:16.24,0:07:22.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,instance, when they booked a flight and so\Non. They will algorithmically try to find
Dialogue: 0,0:07:22.35,0:07:29.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,patterns there, and then they will compare\Nyour flight passenger name records with
Dialogue: 0,0:07:29.55,0:07:34.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that data. And if you have a similar\Nbehavior, than a previous perpetrator,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:34.47,0:07:42.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,previous criminal, for instance, then\Nyou're already under suspicion. And this
Dialogue: 0,0:07:42.35,0:07:47.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data in these databases are stored for\Nfive years and can be further used by
Dialogue: 0,0:07:47.88,0:07:54.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different law enforcement agencies. So\Nthat data is not only compared and then
Dialogue: 0,0:07:54.46,0:08:00.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,deleted again. The storage time is five\Nyears and they do something called
Dialogue: 0,0:08:00.56,0:08:08.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,depersonalization about six months after\Nthe data was created. But this is not in
Dialogue: 0,0:08:08.04,0:08:13.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any way an anonymisation, but they just\Nremove some data and it can easily be
Dialogue: 0,0:08:13.48,0:08:20.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,identified again. So the person the data\Nbelongs to can easily be identified for
Dialogue: 0,0:08:20.53,0:08:27.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the whole period of five years. So you\Nprobably asked yourself already: First, is
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.50,0:08:33.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this effective? Well, this runs already\Nsince last year, so we have some data.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:33.96,0:08:43.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First, I will present to you the data from\NAustria. In Austria, we found out that
Dialogue: 0,0:08:43.71,0:08:52.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,already until the 30th of September, 2019,\Nalmost 24 passenger name records where
Dialogue: 0,0:08:52.22,0:08:59.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forwarded to the passenger name unit at\Nthe Bundeskriminalamt and
Dialogue: 0,0:08:59.45,0:09:06.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,11 900 000 thousand different people\Nwere subject to that. And of these, almost
Dialogue: 0,0:09:06.64,0:09:13.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,24 000 000 passenger name records, the\Nalgorithms that checking against databases
Dialogue: 0,0:09:13.00,0:09:21.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,already brought up 190 000\Nmatches. So every single match,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:21.21,0:09:27.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,every single output the algorithm has,\Nmust be checked by a human employee. So we
Dialogue: 0,0:09:27.64,0:09:34.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have sitting there people who have to\Ncheck. Even this is not even the data of a
Dialogue: 0,0:09:34.43,0:09:41.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,year. And they have to check\N190 000 matches and only 280
Dialogue: 0,0:09:41.58,0:09:47.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of them are actual hits. So if a person\Nchecks what the algorithm outputs there,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:47.34,0:09:55.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then only in 0.15% of the cases\Nthe policewoman or policeman
Dialogue: 0,0:09:55.54,0:10:01.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,come to their conclusion: This is actually\Nrelevant for us. And if you do the math,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:01.61,0:10:09.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this means that only 0.001% percent of all\Nthat 24 million passenger name data, your
Dialogue: 0,0:10:09.73,0:10:15.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data which is checked, actually leads to a\Nhit. And we don't even know how many
Dialogue: 0,0:10:15.81,0:10:23.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actual false positives remain in these\N220. This is only what the police will
Dialogue: 0,0:10:23.12,0:10:29.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inspect afterwards. So we have no numbers\Nor results if they had actual
Dialogue: 0,0:10:29.98,0:10:36.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,investigative results on that. But what we\Ncan say is that there are 21 employees,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:36.84,0:10:42.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,qualified employees, working in the\Npassenger name, Passenger Information Unit,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:42.07,0:10:48.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this costs almost 2 million euros per\Nyear and only for checking that data in
Dialogue: 0,0:10:48.88,0:10:55.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the small country of Austria. And Bijan\Nnow will present to you the data in German.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:55.05,0:10:59.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bijan: The number, the data of the big\Nneighbor, because you said small country
Dialogue: 0,0:10:59.28,0:11:05.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Austria. In Germany the numbers are\Nsurprisingly similar. We also had - have
Dialogue: 0,0:11:05.61,0:11:11.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,numbers up until mid of August 2019, and\Nwe have had almost 32 million passenger
Dialogue: 0,0:11:11.34,0:11:16.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,name records checked, which generated\Nautomatic results of matches of about
Dialogue: 0,0:11:16.98,0:11:24.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,240 000, which then were checked by 40\Npolice officers and there remained only
Dialogue: 0,0:11:24.29,0:11:32.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,910 actual hits. So the fail rate was\N99.6% and 0.003% all PNRs checked led to
Dialogue: 0,0:11:32.91,0:11:38.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actual hits. And even of that number, just\Nas in Austria, we are not sure how many
Dialogue: 0,0:11:38.09,0:11:43.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,false positives remain. We know that there\Nwere considerably a considerable amount of
Dialogue: 0,0:11:43.17,0:11:47.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,false positives. We estimate them to be in\Nthe hundreds. But the law enforcement did
Dialogue: 0,0:11:47.67,0:11:52.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not specify what actually, how many\Nsupposed positives remained, even among
Dialogue: 0,0:11:52.65,0:11:59.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the 910. And one of the results we know is\Nthat it led to 57 arrests. We don't know
Dialogue: 0,0:11:59.20,0:12:03.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for which crimes. We don't know whether\Nthese people actually committed a crime,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:03.00,0:12:08.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether they were suspected for crime,\Nwhether they were just on a watch list.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:08.19,0:12:15.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But 57 arrests, assuming this is these\Nwere legitimate, this means that 0.0002%
Dialogue: 0,0:12:15.22,0:12:21.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of all PNRs checked led to an arrest. And\Nif you try to to transpose this to other
Dialogue: 0,0:12:21.43,0:12:28.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,situations in life, you could go to a to a\Nmarket, to to some, uh, to some festival
Dialogue: 0,0:12:28.15,0:12:32.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or what not, and just ask randomly people,\Nand you would probably have with a similar
Dialogue: 0,0:12:32.49,0:12:36.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probability, an arrest in the end at the\Nend of the day. So if this holds that this
Dialogue: 0,0:12:36.99,0:12:41.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whole PNR processing holds is this\Neffectiveness is the standard that we are
Dialogue: 0,0:12:41.74,0:12:49.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,happy with, then you can easily take this\Nto all other sorts of walks of life. And
Dialogue: 0,0:12:49.61,0:12:55.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is true, in our opinion, a big\Nproblem, because it will lead to a digital
Dialogue: 0,0:12:55.65,0:13:00.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surveillance state, which is has come\Nquite near with these new tools that the
Dialogue: 0,0:13:00.77,0:13:07.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,PNR directive provide. What we've now just\Nshown are the the automatic is the checks
Dialogue: 0,0:13:07.51,0:13:12.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against databases. That was the one thing\Nthat the PNR directive provides for. The
Dialogue: 0,0:13:12.25,0:13:17.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other one is the checking against\Npredetermined criteria. And this is where
Dialogue: 0,0:13:17.07,0:13:23.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the voodoo kind of starts, because the\Nidea that you can merely from the data
Dialogue: 0,0:13:23.01,0:13:29.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is in the PNR, in your passenger name\Nrecord, derive whether you are suspicious,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:29.14,0:13:36.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or dangerous even is, at least in our\Nopinion, pretty much voodoo, and it has
Dialogue: 0,0:13:36.29,0:13:43.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,serious consequences. And it might lead to\Nautomatic profiling affecting hundreds of
Dialogue: 0,0:13:43.09,0:13:47.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,millions of people, possibly, because\Neverybody is checked when they and when
Dialogue: 0,0:13:47.27,0:13:51.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they use a plane. Everybody PNR record is\Nchecked against these automatic , against
Dialogue: 0,0:13:51.83,0:13:56.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these predetermined criteria, and not just\Nfor crimes such as terrorism or organized
Dialogue: 0,0:13:56.74,0:14:01.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,crime, where you could maybe make a case\Nthat there exists such a thing as a
Dialogue: 0,0:14:01.67,0:14:06.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pattern of movements where you can\Nidentify a terrorist suspect, but it is
Dialogue: 0,0:14:06.89,0:14:13.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also used for crimes such as fraud or\Nforgery or cyber crime where I would argue
Dialogue: 0,0:14:13.85,0:14:18.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you cannot find the typical cyber\Ncriminals flight pattern, flight patterns.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:18.50,0:14:24.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's just not possible. And so but but the\NPNR directive itself is only the one
Dialogue: 0,0:14:24.34,0:14:29.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thing. We are fighting this for reasons\Nthat go way beyond the PNR processing so
Dialogue: 0,0:14:29.12,0:14:35.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the processing of PNR flight data, because\Nit may set a dangerous precedent for other
Dialogue: 0,0:14:35.98,0:14:40.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mass surveillance. Already now PNR\Nprocessing is being discussed for buses
Dialogue: 0,0:14:40.87,0:14:44.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that cross borders, for ships and trains.\NAnd there are some countries such as
Dialogue: 0,0:14:44.85,0:14:50.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Belgium that have already enacted the very\Nmuch. And why stop there, might a police
Dialogue: 0,0:14:50.87,0:14:56.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,officer argue. Why not include rental cars\Nthat cross borders? Why not at some point
Dialogue: 0,0:14:56.22,0:15:00.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,include private cars that cross borders?\NWhy not get away with that requirement of
Dialogue: 0,0:15:00.41,0:15:04.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,crossing borders? Why not have everybody\Nchecked all the time, maybe via their
Dialogue: 0,0:15:04.46,0:15:09.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mobile phones? So when we give way to this\Nsort of data processing with such a low
Dialogue: 0,0:15:09.90,0:15:16.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,threshold of effectiveness, we open the\Ndoor for all sorts of, um, of activity
Dialogue: 0,0:15:16.04,0:15:21.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that at least from our point of view, is\Nillegal. And the question you were maybe
Dialogue: 0,0:15:21.31,0:15:27.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,asking yourself or maybe not. Is this\Nlegal? We are convinced it is not. And
Dialogue: 0,0:15:27.31,0:15:35.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,luckily, we could rely on a legal opinion\Nthat the European Court of Justice ECJ has
Dialogue: 0,0:15:35.07,0:15:40.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rendered a two and a half years ago. There\Nis one PNR agreement in place between the
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.80,0:15:46.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,EU and the USA, which has not been\Nchallenged yet. And another agreement was
Dialogue: 0,0:15:46.20,0:15:51.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,supposed to be known or was negotiated\Nbetween the EU Commission and Canada, and
Dialogue: 0,0:15:51.33,0:15:56.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the EU Parliament then presented the\Nquestion to the ECJ whether this agreement
Dialogue: 0,0:15:56.60,0:16:01.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would be violating fundamental rights of\Nthe Charter of Fundamental Rights of the
Dialogue: 0,0:16:01.83,0:16:09.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European Union. And the ECJ concluded that\Nit would, in the form that it was proposed
Dialogue: 0,0:16:09.36,0:16:13.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to it, breach Article 7 and 8 of that\Ncharter's. Article 7 as the right to
Dialogue: 0,0:16:13.80,0:16:17.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,privacy in Article 8 is the right to have\Nyour data protected, your personal data
Dialogue: 0,0:16:17.97,0:16:23.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,protected. And we are, of course, relying\Nheavily on that, on the arguments that the
Dialogue: 0,0:16:23.75,0:16:29.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,court developed and developing them even\Nfurther, because; as you can imagine, the
Dialogue: 0,0:16:29.15,0:16:34.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,PNR, the agreement with Canada and the PNR\Ndirective are quite similar. So what are
Dialogue: 0,0:16:34.56,0:16:40.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these arguments that we are bringing up?\NAnd we've shown already that the
Dialogue: 0,0:16:40.82,0:16:45.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,effectiveness is highly doubtful. And this\Nleads us to concluding that the PNR
Dialogue: 0,0:16:45.88,0:16:50.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,directive is disproportionate. So it\Nviolates human fundamental rights. For
Dialogue: 0,0:16:50.43,0:16:55.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,several reasons. One being a point that\Nwe've both raised already that PNR
Dialogue: 0,0:16:55.94,0:17:00.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,processing indiscriminately affects all\Npassengers. And this is a very important
Dialogue: 0,0:17:00.41,0:17:05.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,point, because it makes it shows the\Ndifference between PNR processing under
Dialogue: 0,0:17:05.07,0:17:08.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the PNR directive and what was formerly\Nthe the data retention of
Dialogue: 0,0:17:08.92,0:17:14.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,telecommunications data. Because the\Nlatter would require a specific case,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:14.72,0:17:20.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something must have had happened in order\Nfor the law enforcement to ask for the
Dialogue: 0,0:17:20.03,0:17:26.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,telecommunications data of the\Ntelecommunications provider. But our
Dialogue: 0,0:17:26.01,0:17:32.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,PNR data on flights is checked all the\Ntime, always, against databases, and even
Dialogue: 0,0:17:32.21,0:17:36.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more importantly, the predetermined\Ncriteria, which we, of course, do not know
Dialogue: 0,0:17:36.67,0:17:41.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nothing about. And this brings with it\Nespecially the last point, the
Dialogue: 0,0:17:41.60,0:17:46.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,predetermined criteria, are high risk of\Nfalse accusations. We've already seen that
Dialogue: 0,0:17:46.20,0:17:52.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,99.6% of data base matching, automatic\Ndata is matching is wrongful. And imagine
Dialogue: 0,0:17:52.73,0:17:59.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how much higher the number would be with\Nchecking against predetermined criteria.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:59.64,0:18:05.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that the reason why we expect many\Nfalse accusations, false positives, is the
Dialogue: 0,0:18:05.81,0:18:09.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so-called base rate fallacy, which\Nbasically says that when you're looking
Dialogue: 0,0:18:09.38,0:18:13.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for a very small amount of people in a\Nlarge dataset and you have a significant
Dialogue: 0,0:18:13.98,0:18:18.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fail rate, you're very likely to produce\Nmore false positives, maybe many more
Dialogue: 0,0:18:18.77,0:18:23.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,false positives than true positives. So\Nactual suspects, or not suspects, but
Dialogue: 0,0:18:23.66,0:18:28.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actual terrorists. So, for instance, when\Nyou if you're checking 100 million flight
Dialogue: 0,0:18:28.10,0:18:32.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,passengers. And you're looking for 100\Nterrorists, and you have even a fail rate
Dialogue: 0,0:18:32.70,0:18:39.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of 0.1%, not the 99.6 that we're talking\Nabout now, but even just 0.1%, this would
Dialogue: 0,0:18:39.66,0:18:45.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,render this would this would render\N100 000 flight passengers subject to to
Dialogue: 0,0:18:45.27,0:18:50.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to being suspected terrorists. So you\Nwould have 100 000 false positives, 100
Dialogue: 0,0:18:50.76,0:18:55.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terrorists that let's assume all of them\Nso that they had a positive success rate
Dialogue: 0,0:18:55.28,0:19:00.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of 100 percent identifying positively as a\Nterrorist suspect. Then you will have
Dialogue: 0,0:19:00.31,0:19:07.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,100 000 false positives, 100 people that\Nare correctly suspected. But everybody, of
Dialogue: 0,0:19:07.29,0:19:11.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,course, will be treated the same. And what\NI've listed here are just the obvious
Dialogue: 0,0:19:11.40,0:19:16.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,things, stigmatization at the airport by\Ninterrogation, searches of luggage of
Dialogue: 0,0:19:16.53,0:19:21.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people and arrests, missing flights.\NAnd depending on the country
Dialogue: 0,0:19:21.46,0:19:27.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you're in you may be in much more trouble\Nafter that. The second point is that the
Dialogue: 0,0:19:27.02,0:19:33.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data is being stored way too long. As\NWalter has already mentioned 5 years. Why
Dialogue: 0,0:19:33.08,0:19:38.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do you need 5 years worth of data to check\Na database entry or against a
Dialogue: 0,0:19:38.55,0:19:42.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,predetermined criteria? Of course, you\Ndon't needed it for that. Because you
Dialogue: 0,0:19:42.80,0:19:47.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could do that immediately after a person\Nhas boarded. You can perform the check and
Dialogue: 0,0:19:47.97,0:19:52.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then you could get rid of the data, delete\Nit after it's being used. The reason why
Dialogue: 0,0:19:52.58,0:19:56.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they're storing it so long as that law\Nenforcement and intelligence agencies have
Dialogue: 0,0:19:56.51,0:20:01.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an interest that goes beyond that checking\Nafter boarding, they want to keep the data
Dialogue: 0,0:20:01.49,0:20:06.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and check it in future, criminal\Ninvestigations in future, looking into a
Dialogue: 0,0:20:06.65,0:20:10.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,person, what where they've traveled and so\Non and so forth. But that has nothing to
Dialogue: 0,0:20:10.64,0:20:15.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do with the original purpose of PNR, the\NPNR directive. And what at least everybody
Dialogue: 0,0:20:15.98,0:20:21.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here will know in all data storing, so\Ndata storing is in itself a problem. It's
Dialogue: 0,0:20:21.24,0:20:25.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in itself a violation of fundamental\Nrights when there is no legitimate reason
Dialogue: 0,0:20:25.17,0:20:30.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do so. But also all data storage puts\Nthe data stored at risk. And as we've
Dialogue: 0,0:20:30.32,0:20:34.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mentioned already, there's the payment\Ndata, especially there's other other
Dialogue: 0,0:20:34.98,0:20:39.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sensitive data with whom you've traveled,\Nwhether you've traveled with light luggage
Dialogue: 0,0:20:39.32,0:20:45.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or not, where you have gone to, via which\Nplace and so on and so forth. Another
Dialogue: 0,0:20:45.79,0:20:49.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,point, which is a bit more complicated is\Nthat the director does not sufficiently
Dialogue: 0,0:20:49.37,0:20:54.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,differentiate between crimes where\Nautomatic profiling could make sense and
Dialogue: 0,0:20:54.04,0:20:59.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,others. So as I have said, there may be a\Npoint in saying that the typical
Dialogue: 0,0:20:59.90,0:21:06.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terrorists would fly from A to B via C\Nwithout checking in luggage using this or
Dialogue: 0,0:21:06.04,0:21:11.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that tourist office and so on and so\Nforth. So maybe just assume that this is
Dialogue: 0,0:21:11.22,0:21:17.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the case. This, no one can can tell me\Nthat there is a typical flight pattern of
Dialogue: 0,0:21:17.20,0:21:23.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a fraudster where you could ask someone\Ndefine which way a fraudster typically
Dialogue: 0,0:21:23.20,0:21:27.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,flies and identify such a person. So what\Nthe directive would have needed to do if
Dialogue: 0,0:21:27.99,0:21:32.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they wanted had wanted to check against\Npredetermined criteria would have been to
Dialogue: 0,0:21:32.27,0:21:38.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,identify for which crimes - exactly, and\Nonly for these - you can use such a voodoo
Dialogue: 0,0:21:38.94,0:21:44.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,miracle weapon. And finally, these are not\Nthe only arguments, but the more most
Dialogue: 0,0:21:44.39,0:21:49.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,important ones. We expect that the false\Npositives especially will lead to
Dialogue: 0,0:21:49.27,0:21:55.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discrimination against minorities. And one\Nexample that the German National Police,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:55.25,0:22:01.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Bundeskriminalamt has given us for a\Npredetermined criteria are young men
Dialogue: 0,0:22:01.25,0:22:06.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,flying from airports from the south of\NTurkey to a major European city. So
Dialogue: 0,0:22:06.73,0:22:10.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they're thinking about former IS fighters,\NIS terrorists. And as you can easily
Dialogue: 0,0:22:10.70,0:22:15.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,imagine what kind of people will be\Nsitting in in in a on a plane that's
Dialogue: 0,0:22:15.69,0:22:20.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coming from the south of Turkey to Germany\Nor to any other European country. Of
Dialogue: 0,0:22:20.31,0:22:25.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,course, this will affect them\Ndisproportionately, affect minorities. And
Dialogue: 0,0:22:25.99,0:22:32.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it is already now highly intransparent\Nwhat how these these predetermined
Dialogue: 0,0:22:32.03,0:22:38.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,criteria are developed. And imagine a near\Nfuture where law enforcement will
Dialogue: 0,0:22:38.22,0:22:42.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,naturally try to involve artificial\Nintelligence and finding patterns in the
Dialogue: 0,0:22:42.64,0:22:48.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,raw data of flight movements of PNR data,\Nof the treasure they're now hoarding with
Dialogue: 0,0:22:48.18,0:22:54.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a five year worth of data. And at the\Nlatest, at that point in time, it will be
Dialogue: 0,0:22:54.56,0:23:00.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,impossible for us to understand why a\Ncertain criterion was defined and how how
Dialogue: 0,0:23:00.71,0:23:04.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to challenge it when you're in the\Nposition to be arrested at the airport,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:04.37,0:23:10.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for instance. So what can we do? And\Nthat's where we come in. The two
Dialogue: 0,0:23:10.19,0:23:15.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,organizations that we are. We are no\Ntypical advocacy organizations, but we do
Dialogue: 0,0:23:15.92,0:23:21.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strategic litigation. Because\Nunfortunately no advocacy worked on the
Dialogue: 0,0:23:21.04,0:23:26.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,PNR directive. It came into force pretty\Nmuch as the, um, as national law
Dialogue: 0,0:23:26.22,0:23:34.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enforcement wanted it to be. And so there\Nis one instance, one authority at the time
Dialogue: 0,0:23:34.14,0:23:39.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that in Europe, in Germany, in Europe, the\NEuropean Union, the courts, which can
Dialogue: 0,0:23:39.02,0:23:44.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which can ideally, um, dismiss of the\Nreasons of the motivations of law
Dialogue: 0,0:23:44.92,0:23:51.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enforcement to have such a directive\Nenforced and can try to objectively assess
Dialogue: 0,0:23:51.34,0:23:57.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether this is actually legal and should\Nremain in force, stay in force or not. And
Dialogue: 0,0:23:57.18,0:24:01.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we did this through litigation both in\NGermany and in Austria, and both are
Dialogue: 0,0:24:01.64,0:24:06.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having the same goal, which is to present\Nto the European Court of Justice the
Dialogue: 0,0:24:06.49,0:24:11.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,question whether the PNR directive and any\Nnational law that is transposing the PNR
Dialogue: 0,0:24:11.77,0:24:17.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,directive is in violation of the Charter\Nof Fundamental Rights. Why do we have to
Dialogue: 0,0:24:17.98,0:24:23.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,go? Why is the ECJ important? Because when\Nyou have a national law that directly
Dialogue: 0,0:24:23.47,0:24:31.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transposes a European law, a directive,\Nthen then only the ECJ can declare such a
Dialogue: 0,0:24:31.33,0:24:35.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,law void. There is no way for, for\Ninstance, in Germany, the federal
Dialogue: 0,0:24:35.42,0:24:39.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,constitutional court, the\NBundesverfassungsgericht, to say that this
Dialogue: 0,0:24:39.67,0:24:46.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,law should not be applied any longer. This\Nquestion must be presented to the ECJ. So
Dialogue: 0,0:24:46.02,0:24:50.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how could we get to the ECJ? This actually\Nwas a process that took us quite a bit of
Dialogue: 0,0:24:50.94,0:24:56.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,time. It's been two years in the making. A\Nyear ago, we launched six different
Dialogue: 0,0:24:56.49,0:25:01.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,complaints of six different plaintiffs\Nthat are flying all over Europe, that we
Dialogue: 0,0:25:01.27,0:25:05.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,booked flights for them that led them to a\NEuropean member states, a European Union
Dialogue: 0,0:25:05.79,0:25:10.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,member states and two states outside of\Nthe European Union. And we sent the
Dialogue: 0,0:25:10.93,0:25:16.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,complaints to three different courts. The\None, two complaints were directed against
Dialogue: 0,0:25:16.03,0:25:20.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the German national police and went to the\Nadministrative court in Wiesbaden, and
Dialogue: 0,0:25:20.32,0:25:24.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,four others were directed against the\Nairplane airlines. So we tried to
Dialogue: 0,0:25:24.56,0:25:30.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,diversify as much as possible in order to\Nfind a judge that would agree with us that
Dialogue: 0,0:25:30.95,0:25:36.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is problematic and this needs\Nchecking. And we are optimistic that
Dialogue: 0,0:25:36.78,0:25:43.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,either the court in Wiesbaden or the court\Nin Cologne will soon present these very
Dialogue: 0,0:25:43.50,0:25:48.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,questions to the court, whether the German\Ntransposition law and the PNR directive
Dialogue: 0,0:25:48.29,0:25:53.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,itself are violating fundamental rights\Nafter European of the Charter of the
Dialogue: 0,0:25:53.12,0:25:58.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European Union.\NWalter: So as Bijan already mentioned, our
Dialogue: 0,0:25:58.98,0:26:05.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,aim is to bring our case as quick as\Npossible to the European Court of Justice.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:05.39,0:26:11.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we had different options. And in Austria,\Nwe went a third way. We brought a case
Dialogue: 0,0:26:11.47,0:26:18.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before the Austrian Data Protection Authority\Nagainst the Fluggastdatenzentralstelle
Dialogue: 0,0:26:18.98,0:26:24.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,im Bundeskriminalamt, a passenger\Nnamed unit. And we we brought several
Dialogue: 0,0:26:24.60,0:26:31.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different cases and we also found out that\Ndifferent, smaller things which we are on.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:31.06,0:26:38.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the main thing is that this case\Nalready went as planned to the
Dialogue: 0,0:26:38.01,0:26:46.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bundesverwaltungsgericht, so the federal\Nadministrative court in Austria. And from
Dialogue: 0,0:26:46.58,0:26:54.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there, we hope that is also soon forwarded\Nto the European Court of Justice. And
Dialogue: 0,0:26:54.85,0:27:02.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,theoretically, it would be enough if one\Ncase hits the European Court of Justice.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:02.24,0:27:07.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But practically, it is, of course, very\Nimportant to have different strategies
Dialogue: 0,0:27:07.59,0:27:15.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because there are different speeds and so\Non. So that's why we also should mention
Dialogue: 0,0:27:15.75,0:27:22.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,another case, the the Belgian case. So\Nthis Belgian human rights organization,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:22.93,0:27:28.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they also brought the case before a\NBelgian court. In this case, it was
Dialogue: 0,0:27:28.65,0:27:34.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,directly the Belgian constitutional court.\NSo they had a direct way to the
Dialogue: 0,0:27:34.72,0:27:40.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,constitutional court, unlike our cases in\NAustria, where this or in Germany where
Dialogue: 0,0:27:40.34,0:27:47.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this was not possible. And therefore, the\NBelgian constitutional court already
Dialogue: 0,0:27:47.37,0:27:55.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,referred this case to the European Court\Nof Justice. And we are hoping that our
Dialogue: 0,0:27:55.04,0:28:01.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,case will be soon or cases, or at least\Nsome of them will soon be joined with this
Dialogue: 0,0:28:01.21,0:28:11.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,case at the European Court of Justice, and\Nthen decided together. So to sum up, we
Dialogue: 0,0:28:11.22,0:28:20.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have actually a very infringing piece of\Nlegislation the PNR directive, PNR
Dialogue: 0,0:28:20.43,0:28:28.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,processing, as Bijan explained to us in\Nmore detail, is extremely intrusive in all
Dialogue: 0,0:28:28.53,0:28:34.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,flight passengers' fundamental rights. It\Nviolates fundamental rights, especially
Dialogue: 0,0:28:34.55,0:28:41.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it is already... is also\Nineffective and disproportionate. So we
Dialogue: 0,0:28:41.46,0:28:47.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,heard about these different things. The\Nbase rate fallacy that it is ineffective
Dialogue: 0,0:28:47.65,0:28:54.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and disproportionate because it is not\Nreally possible to find specific suspects
Dialogue: 0,0:28:54.10,0:29:02.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in such amount of data with without having\Na lot, a real lot of false positives. So
Dialogue: 0,0:29:02.57,0:29:08.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other arguments are that it is data\Nretention in the first place. So also
Dialogue: 0,0:29:08.19,0:29:14.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,already the retention of the data of\Npeople like you and me is a big problem
Dialogue: 0,0:29:14.99,0:29:22.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and unlawful. And this general suspicion\Nit leads to. So everybody becomes a
Dialogue: 0,0:29:22.60,0:29:30.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,suspect and can become practically a\Nsuspect, can get problems practically from
Dialogue: 0,0:29:30.20,0:29:38.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that legislation without being a criminal.\NAnd yeah, we have strong arguments as we
Dialogue: 0,0:29:38.90,0:29:48.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,showed you already, the case of the Canada\NPNR directive, the PNR agreement with
Dialogue: 0,0:29:48.60,0:29:55.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Canada is very similar in practice to the\NPNR directive. So the arguments already
Dialogue: 0,0:29:55.26,0:30:01.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,held before the European Court of Justice.\NSo actually, it's a shame that this was
Dialogue: 0,0:30:01.48,0:30:07.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not stopped earlier. And civil rights\Norganizations as we are have to do that.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:07.97,0:30:16.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's what we do. And that's also why\Nwe depend on donations. So that's also
Dialogue: 0,0:30:16.59,0:30:21.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,important to stress that our work people\Nhaving people fully employed to do things
Dialogue: 0,0:30:21.79,0:30:28.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like that cost some money. And that's\Nwhere you can find us. So we have a
Dialogue: 0,0:30:28.70,0:30:35.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,campaign website, nopnr.eu in German\Nand English. And you can find us, of
Dialogue: 0,0:30:35.80,0:30:40.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,course, on our website and both websites\Nand find ways how to join us, how to
Dialogue: 0,0:30:40.58,0:30:46.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,support us. And also still today, you can\Nmeet us at our assembly in the CCL
Dialogue: 0,0:30:46.73,0:30:52.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,building the about freedom assembly, where\Nboth the Gesellschaft für Freiheitsrechte
Dialogue: 0,0:30:52.59,0:31:00.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Epicentre Works have their desk and\Nyou can ask all the question. But first,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:00.66,0:31:03.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ask all your questions now. Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:03.38,0:31:06.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:31:06.87,0:31:14.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Thank you, Walter and Bijan, for\Nthis very clarifying statements. I suppose
Dialogue: 0,0:31:14.76,0:31:19.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are quite some questions here in the\Naudience. Only I'm looking at someone
Dialogue: 0,0:31:19.38,0:31:32.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who's grabbing a microphone now. I see the\Nsignal angel. Yes. The mic is not on. Can
Dialogue: 0,0:31:32.25,0:31:47.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,someone help him? Signal Angel needs a mic.\NYes, it's almost there. Brains are
Dialogue: 0,0:31:47.59,0:31:51.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,working.\NSignal Angel: Thank you. Is there a cheap
Dialogue: 0,0:31:51.41,0:31:55.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,method to spam for some trees, for\Nexample, by booking flight under a false
Dialogue: 0,0:31:55.47,0:32:02.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,name and then canceling the flight?\NBijan: Well, I think it's it's difficult
Dialogue: 0,0:32:02.100,0:32:06.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to say. I didn't get the very first words.\NSorry.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:06.89,0:32:11.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Signal Angel: Yes, the very first one was:\Nis there a cheap method to spam, to spam
Dialogue: 0,0:32:11.16,0:32:14.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for some trees?\NBijan: Yeah. Theoretically, I don't think
Dialogue: 0,0:32:14.81,0:32:19.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that anything could speak against that.\NYeah, but the problem is that you would
Dialogue: 0,0:32:19.13,0:32:23.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,need to cancel very late because, um, I\Nthink the first time they push the data,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:23.75,0:32:28.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the airlines are pushing the data to the\Nnational police is, 48 hours before the
Dialogue: 0,0:32:28.14,0:32:32.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before boarding. So that might come to\Nbecome a bit expensive.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:32.80,0:32:34.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:32:34.44,0:32:38.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Walter: I would want to make a general\Nremark also on that. Of course, here,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:38.92,0:32:44.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,especially here, thoughts like that, how\Nto hack the system are very important and
Dialogue: 0,0:32:44.11,0:32:50.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can help. But our general approach is to\Ntake legal action to protect all people at
Dialogue: 0,0:32:50.76,0:32:56.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the same way, and not only those who who\Nare able to protect themselves or hack the
Dialogue: 0,0:32:56.02,0:33:04.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,system or whatever. So that's the reason\Nwhy we both go this general way to bring
Dialogue: 0,0:33:04.14,0:33:11.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that down. Completely.\NHerald: And other question here. Yes.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:11.45,0:33:20.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sorry, sir. Please.\NQ: What do you expect as a result of your
Dialogue: 0,0:33:20.88,0:33:26.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,litigation if you are successful in court?\NWill ... do you expect the courts to
Dialogue: 0,0:33:26.55,0:33:34.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strike down the directive entirely, or do\Nyou expect another legislative process to
Dialogue: 0,0:33:34.31,0:33:42.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do the same thing again or to fix, quote\Nunquote, the directive in very small ways
Dialogue: 0,0:33:42.26,0:33:47.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just to to drag out this battle and\Ncontinue the practice. What do you think
Dialogue: 0,0:33:47.57,0:33:52.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the effects will be?\NBijan: Well, we think that the European
Dialogue: 0,0:33:52.21,0:33:56.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Court of Justice, if it follows our\Nargument, our reasoning, it should it will
Dialogue: 0,0:33:56.07,0:33:59.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strike down the PNR directive entirely,\Nbecause the way it is set up is
Dialogue: 0,0:33:59.69,0:34:06.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fundamentally not in in accordance with\Nwhat it earlier ruled so far. Unless it
Dialogue: 0,0:34:06.56,0:34:10.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will change its its entire history of\Nruling on data retention and so on and so
Dialogue: 0,0:34:10.55,0:34:15.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forth. But of course, we will expect the\Nmember states to push for another
Dialogue: 0,0:34:15.68,0:34:21.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legislation that may be similar, but not\Nthe exact same thing. So I can imagine
Dialogue: 0,0:34:21.35,0:34:25.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something of a of the sort of data\Nretention of telecommunications, as it
Dialogue: 0,0:34:25.89,0:34:31.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were, and with airlines retaining the data\Nand keeping it for a shorter period of
Dialogue: 0,0:34:31.06,0:34:36.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,time and only giving it out when there is\Na specific request with, where there is a
Dialogue: 0,0:34:36.29,0:34:41.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,specific reason for law enforcement to ask\Nfor the data. I could imagine such a thing
Dialogue: 0,0:34:41.03,0:34:45.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coming up again and then we would need to\Ncheck whether this is illegal or not. And
Dialogue: 0,0:34:45.84,0:34:50.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe go through the whole procedure as\Nwell. But it is it would be an immense
Dialogue: 0,0:34:50.25,0:34:56.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,success if the PNR directive as it stands\Nwould be void. Declared void.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:56.19,0:35:02.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Thank you. Someone else has a\Nquestion. I see the person here.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:02.29,0:35:10.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Microphone one, please.\NQ: Hel-lo, yeah. Okay, so you had the
Dialogue: 0,0:35:10.79,0:35:15.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,agreement that, uh, there are a lot of\Nfalse positives when they checked up PNR
Dialogue: 0,0:35:15.48,0:35:20.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data. Um, do we have any information how\Nlong it takes for them to react on the PNR
Dialogue: 0,0:35:20.64,0:35:25.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data if they get a positive hit? So maybe\Nthey won't react after the person has
Dialogue: 0,0:35:25.57,0:35:31.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,landed and already, uh, is in the country?\NBijan: They claim that they can act
Dialogue: 0,0:35:31.11,0:35:36.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,immediately, but we can't know that for\Nsure. So the fact that they had 57 arrests
Dialogue: 0,0:35:36.93,0:35:42.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at the airports signals that at least that\Nin some respects this is true. But we
Dialogue: 0,0:35:42.37,0:35:47.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cannot know for sure how much, how quickly\Nthey they they kind of react. And keep in
Dialogue: 0,0:35:47.48,0:35:52.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mind, this is only the start. So, so far\Nin Germany, right up until the point where
Dialogue: 0,0:35:52.47,0:35:57.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this the data that I presented for Germany\Ncame about, there were only 9 airlines, I
Dialogue: 0,0:35:57.22,0:36:01.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think, that were linked to the system. So\Nexpect there to be much more data coming
Dialogue: 0,0:36:01.44,0:36:05.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in. And once they start with a\Npredetermined criteria thing, this will
Dialogue: 0,0:36:05.83,0:36:13.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,multiply probably. Um, even so, I cannot\Nimagine unless they they ... have this
Dialogue: 0,0:36:13.44,0:36:20.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,new, um, thing with hundreds of people\Ninvolved that they can act immediately in
Dialogue: 0,0:36:20.28,0:36:26.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,each and every case.\NHerald: Thank you. There is a question
Dialogue: 0,0:36:26.24,0:36:30.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,again on the Internet. Yes.\NSignal Angel: Yes. How come, you haven't
Dialogue: 0,0:36:30.10,0:36:35.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tried voiding the local at one provisions\Nthat this PNR there for intra EU flights? {\i1}(???){\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:36:35.35,0:36:39.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That seems most likely against Schengen\Nprovisions.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:39.18,0:36:44.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bijan: We have addressed that as well. We\Nhave picked intra-EU flights also. We have
Dialogue: 0,0:36:44.84,0:36:52.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not just picked flights that go extra EU,\Nbut, we've also made the point about the
Dialogue: 0,0:36:52.29,0:36:57.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the violation of Schengen criteria. But\Nthat is not so much that is not the focus
Dialogue: 0,0:36:57.84,0:37:02.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of our argument because they are, in our\Nopinion, much stronger ones. Because with
Dialogue: 0,0:37:02.89,0:37:06.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Schengen you would need to argue that it's\Npractically impossible to enter the
Dialogue: 0,0:37:06.99,0:37:13.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,country without being held up and you're\Nnot being held up in a physical form, at
Dialogue: 0,0:37:13.26,0:37:18.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,least not in general, generally. And so\Nthis argument is a bit more difficult than
Dialogue: 0,0:37:18.91,0:37:25.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having an actual border checking of\Npeople. But we're making this point, of
Dialogue: 0,0:37:25.02,0:37:30.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,course. And but we rely on other points\Nthat we think are stronger.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:30.46,0:37:35.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Okay. Please. Microphone number\None, please.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:35.54,0:37:40.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: Is there also data being collected on\Nflights inside a country. So, for example,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:40.09,0:37:43.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from Munich to Berlin.\NBijan: Not yet. Not under the directive.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:43.53,0:37:48.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And theoretically, of course, that the\NGerman legislator or any other legislator
Dialogue: 0,0:37:48.10,0:37:51.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could decide to include that as well, but\Nnot so far.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:51.82,0:37:56.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Number two, please. Microphone.\NYeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:56.33,0:38:01.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: I was wondering how much, uh, false\Nnegatives are in there. You know, that,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:01.92,0:38:07.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like, uh, these big databases. If I don't\Nact like a normal terrorist or something
Dialogue: 0,0:38:07.94,0:38:10.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than I am?\NBijan: We don't we don't know,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:10.57,0:38:15.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unfortunately, not yet. Um, I did. I think\Nit would be very interesting, especially
Dialogue: 0,0:38:15.13,0:38:21.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the predetermined criteria , to see\Nhow many they miss. Um, but yeah. No, not
Dialogue: 0,0:38:21.75,0:38:28.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nothing at.\NHerald: Yeah, and there is no undo button,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:28.58,0:38:33.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think. No. No. No undo. That's always\Nthe thing that I that I'm worried about,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:33.58,0:38:38.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know. Then you have an announcement\Nabout France's data that go out and then
Dialogue: 0,0:38:38.14,0:38:44.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can't have an undo. So what do we do\Nthen? It's always new. Yeah, you can keep
Dialogue: 0,0:38:44.04,0:38:48.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this for five years now. But who says it's\Nthere for five years and what kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:38:48.64,0:38:51.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interpretation to get out of it for five\Nyears? After five years?
Dialogue: 0,0:38:51.97,0:38:55.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bijan: You can't know in\Nwhich database you will be transferred in
Dialogue: 0,0:38:55.09,0:38:59.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the meantime, because law enforcement can\Naccess the data of that very data set and
Dialogue: 0,0:38:59.94,0:39:03.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forth for that data and the PNR data set\Nand put it in another data set because
Dialogue: 0,0:39:03.70,0:39:08.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they have whatever reason to do so. And\Nthen these are again enlarged and
Dialogue: 0,0:39:08.48,0:39:12.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enlarged. And then you will find another\Nreason why they should remain in there for
Dialogue: 0,0:39:12.67,0:39:17.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a longer time. So, yeah. That's why we're\Nfighting this now and hoping to change the
Dialogue: 0,0:39:17.23,0:39:19.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,future.\NHerald: How do you see your chances?
Dialogue: 0,0:39:19.48,0:39:27.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Actually, uh, a long term or short term\Nchances to get to that point is that?
Dialogue: 0,0:39:27.07,0:39:30.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bijan: We are very convinced that we will\Nbe successful, because otherwise we
Dialogue: 0,0:39:30.50,0:39:33.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wouldn't have started this. This is one of\Nour principles. We only do things that we
Dialogue: 0,0:39:33.53,0:39:38.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are convinced of being able to win and we\Nthink that we will win this. And what will
Dialogue: 0,0:39:38.32,0:39:42.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,come out of it? Referring to the I think\Nthe second and the second question
Dialogue: 0,0:39:42.24,0:39:47.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,earlier. And what will be happening in the\Nfuture with other legislation? I can't
Dialogue: 0,0:39:47.48,0:39:51.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know. But one argument the police is\Nalways making or in private, at least to
Dialogue: 0,0:39:51.43,0:39:55.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,me, are is that they're saying, well,\Npeople will get used to it and it won't be
Dialogue: 0,0:39:55.82,0:40:00.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in in five or 10 years. Nobody's gonna be\Nwondering about things like this. And this
Dialogue: 0,0:40:00.78,0:40:05.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is exactly what we are working against,\Nthat this never becomes normal, because if
Dialogue: 0,0:40:05.30,0:40:07.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this becomes normal, as I've argued\Nbefore,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:07.47,0:40:11.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}\NHerald: needs an applause Yes.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:11.13,0:40:14.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bijan: If it becomes normal, as I've\Nargued before, it is easy to extend it to
Dialogue: 0,0:40:14.88,0:40:20.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all sorts of life and ways of life and\Nwalks of life. And this then would be in a
Dialogue: 0,0:40:20.53,0:40:25.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surveillance state par excellence.\NHerald: We were very close there. So we
Dialogue: 0,0:40:25.86,0:40:30.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,need to support them really hard. There is\None last question I suggest. No. There is
Dialogue: 0,0:40:30.09,0:40:35.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,two questions. Number two. Yes.\NQ: Does the PNR directive apply only for
Dialogue: 0,0:40:35.62,0:40:39.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,regular scheduled flights? So does it also\Napply for private flights? The general
Dialogue: 0,0:40:39.49,0:40:42.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,aviation business flights, etc.?\NBijan: Good question. I don't know.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:42.82,0:40:48.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Actually, I look into that and. Write me!\NCome, come here later and I'll check and
Dialogue: 0,0:40:48.51,0:40:52.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'll give you an answer.\NHerald: Then there is one at number one.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:52.31,0:40:56.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: I just wanted to ask a question in\Nresponse to the idea that this is becoming
Dialogue: 0,0:40:56.71,0:41:01.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very normal, because one thing that I\Nthink has become very normal that hasn't
Dialogue: 0,0:41:01.81,0:41:07.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been mentioned explicitly is the idea that\Npeople can be essentially put on a watch
Dialogue: 0,0:41:07.92,0:41:12.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,list as being a potential criminal in the\Nabsence of a crime. And we have these
Dialogue: 0,0:41:12.78,0:41:19.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terrorist watch lists all over the world\Nnow. That is now the new normal. And I
Dialogue: 0,0:41:19.60,0:41:24.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think that's very problematic. And can you\Njust maybe talk about: Do we, do you see a
Dialogue: 0,0:41:24.75,0:41:30.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,future where we can actually get back to,\Nyou know, only arresting or investigating
Dialogue: 0,0:41:30.83,0:41:33.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people because of probable cause, for\Nexample?
Dialogue: 0,0:41:33.89,0:41:39.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bijan: Oh, I hope that this will be our\Nfuture. But, uh, about that point, that
Dialogue: 0,0:41:39.42,0:41:43.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very point, I'm not too optimistic, to be\Nhonest. I am optimistic about one other
Dialogue: 0,0:41:43.75,0:41:48.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one. Another thing that is that these\Ninstruments that are now being created
Dialogue: 0,0:41:48.86,0:41:52.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will prove to be highly ineffective, as\Nwe've so now see now already with checking
Dialogue: 0,0:41:52.91,0:41:58.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against databases, that is already a lot\Nof work and very tedious work. But with
Dialogue: 0,0:41:58.29,0:42:04.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the idea that you can define criteria for\Npeople that that are legitimately to be
Dialogue: 0,0:42:04.08,0:42:08.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,suspected of committing a crime in the\Nfuture, I think it will prove, at least
Dialogue: 0,0:42:08.71,0:42:12.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the next few decades, to be quite\Nimpossible. And this is I don't know if
Dialogue: 0,0:42:12.99,0:42:19.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this came across correctly sufficiently,\Nbut this is really the core issue that we
Dialogue: 0,0:42:19.88,0:42:25.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have with the PNR directive. They are\Nclaiming that they can find suspects of
Dialogue: 0,0:42:25.62,0:42:31.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,crimes or future crimes. Imagine! Not not\Nsomeone that has committed a crime or that
Dialogue: 0,0:42:31.69,0:42:36.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will definitely commit a crime, but that\Ncan reasonably be suspected of committing
Dialogue: 0,0:42:36.89,0:42:43.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a crime in the future, and then act upon\Nthat. And that is really a huge step into
Dialogue: 0,0:42:43.96,0:42:49.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what I called voodoo, about the\Nexpectation that you can take data and
Dialogue: 0,0:42:49.22,0:42:55.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,prevent crime. Minority Report times.\NYeah. To the power five. I don't know.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:55.40,0:43:00.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Sit back and relax. Thank you\NBijan and thank you, Walter, for this
Dialogue: 0,0:43:00.53,0:43:08.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fantastic lecture. Please support them at\NnoPNR dot EU, go to their booth as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:08.52,0:43:10.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And thank you all.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:10.52,0:43:22.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}36C3 postroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:43:22.01,0:43:38.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de\Nin the year 2021. Join, and help us!