0:00:00.992,0:00:02.470 This year, Germany is celebrating 0:00:02.470,0:00:05.556 the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution 0:00:05.556,0:00:07.092 in East Germany. 0:00:07.092,0:00:11.858 In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away, 0:00:11.858,0:00:15.320 the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later, 0:00:15.320,0:00:19.485 the German Democratic Republic, the GDR, 0:00:19.485,0:00:21.154 and the East, was unified 0:00:21.154,0:00:23.844 with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West 0:00:23.844,0:00:27.117 to found today's Germany. 0:00:27.117,0:00:30.511 Among many other things, Germany inherited 0:00:30.511,0:00:35.104 the archives of the East German secret police, 0:00:35.104,0:00:38.420 known as the Stasi. 0:00:38.420,0:00:40.960 Only two years after its dissolution, 0:00:40.960,0:00:44.602 its documents were opened to the public, 0:00:44.602,0:00:47.677 and historians such as me started 0:00:47.677,0:00:49.105 to study these documents 0:00:49.105,0:00:53.797 to learn all about how the GDR surveillance state 0:00:53.797,0:00:55.507 functioned. 0:00:55.507,0:00:58.303 Perhaps you have watched the movie 0:00:58.303,0:01:00.341 "The Lives Of Others." 0:01:00.341,0:01:05.082 This movie made the Stasi known worldwide, 0:01:05.092,0:01:07.942 and as we live in an age where words 0:01:07.942,0:01:11.229 such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping" 0:01:11.229,0:01:13.979 are on the front pages of newspapers, 0:01:13.979,0:01:16.802 I would like to speak about how the Stasi 0:01:16.802,0:01:19.201 really worked. 0:01:19.201,0:01:21.970 At the beginning, let's have a short look 0:01:21.970,0:01:23.928 at the history of the Stasi, 0:01:23.928,0:01:26.219 because it's really important for understanding 0:01:26.219,0:01:29.706 its self-conception. 0:01:29.706,0:01:32.418 Its origins are located in Russia. 0:01:32.418,0:01:34.736 In 1917, the Russian Communists founded 0:01:34.736,0:01:36.930 the Emergency Commission for Combating 0:01:36.930,0:01:39.731 Counter-Revolution and Sabotage, 0:01:39.731,0:01:41.950 shortly Cheka. 0:01:41.950,0:01:44.960 It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky. 0:01:44.960,0:01:48.203 The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists 0:01:48.203,0:01:51.960 to establish their regime by terrorizing the population 0:01:51.960,0:01:54.435 and executing the enemies. 0:01:54.435,0:02:00.244 It evolved later into the well-known KGB. 0:02:00.244,0:02:03.750 The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers. 0:02:03.750,0:02:06.822 They called themselves Chekists, 0:02:06.822,0:02:09.680 and even the emblem was very similar, 0:02:09.680,0:02:12.661 as you can see here. 0:02:12.661,0:02:16.227 In fact, the secret police of Russia 0:02:16.227,0:02:19.518 was the creator and instructor of the Stasi. 0:02:19.518,0:02:23.109 When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945, 0:02:23.109,0:02:25.497 it immediately expanded there, 0:02:25.497,0:02:29.118 and soon it started to train the German Communists 0:02:29.118,0:02:32.366 to build up their own secret police. 0:02:32.366,0:02:35.886 By the way, in this hall where we are now, 0:02:35.886,0:02:41.566 the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946. 0:02:41.566,0:02:44.950 Five years later, the Stasi was established, 0:02:44.950,0:02:47.569 and step by step, the dirty job of oppression 0:02:47.569,0:02:50.111 was handed over to it. 0:02:50.111,0:02:52.542 For instance, the central jail 0:02:52.542,0:02:53.856 for political prisoners, 0:02:53.856,0:02:56.604 which was established by the Russians, 0:02:56.604,0:02:58.864 was taken over by the Stasi 0:02:58.864,0:03:02.048 and used until the end of the Communism. 0:03:02.048,0:03:03.850 You see it here. 0:03:03.850,0:03:07.485 At the beginning, every important step 0:03:07.485,0:03:11.040 took place under the attendance of the Russians. 0:03:11.040,0:03:14.141 But the Germans are known to be very effective, 0:03:14.141,0:03:17.519 so the Stasi grew very quickly, 0:03:17.519,0:03:21.207 and already in 1953, it had more employees 0:03:21.207,0:03:22.905 than the Gestapo had, 0:03:22.905,0:03:25.695 the secret police of Nazi Germany. 0:03:25.695,0:03:28.133 The number doubled in each decade. 0:03:28.133,0:03:31.558 In 1989, more than 90,000 employees 0:03:31.558,0:03:33.223 worked for the Stasi. 0:03:33.223,0:03:35.597 This meant that one employee 0:03:35.597,0:03:38.810 was responsible for 180 inhabitants, 0:03:38.810,0:03:42.809 which was really unique in the world. 0:03:42.809,0:03:45.405 At the top of this tremendous apparatus, 0:03:45.405,0:03:49.189 there was one man, Erich Mielke. 0:03:49.189,0:03:51.450 He ruled the Ministry of State Security 0:03:51.450,0:03:53.769 for more than 30 years. 0:03:53.769,0:03:56.400 He was a scrupulous functionary 0:03:56.400,0:03:59.122 — In his past, he killed two policemen 0:03:59.122,0:04:01.130 not far away from here — 0:04:01.130,0:04:05.197 who in fact personalized the Stasi. 0:04:05.197,0:04:09.690 But what was so exceptional about the Stasi? 0:04:09.690,0:04:12.600 Foremost, it was its enormous power, 0:04:12.600,0:04:16.090 because it united different functions 0:04:16.090,0:04:18.365 in one organization. 0:04:18.365,0:04:20.476 First of all, the Stasi 0:04:20.476,0:04:23.571 was an intelligence service. 0:04:23.571,0:04:26.050 It used all the imaginable instruments 0:04:26.050,0:04:28.333 for getting information secretly, 0:04:28.333,0:04:31.934 such as informers, or tapping phones, 0:04:31.934,0:04:34.802 as you can see it on the picture here. 0:04:34.802,0:04:37.806 And it was not only active in East Germany, 0:04:37.806,0:04:40.543 but all over the world. 0:04:40.543,0:04:44.506 Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police. 0:04:44.506,0:04:46.650 It could stop people on the street 0:04:46.650,0:04:51.078 and arrest them in its own prisons. 0:04:51.078,0:04:52.580 Thirdly, the Stasi worked 0:04:52.580,0:04:55.435 as a kind of public prosecutor. 0:04:55.435,0:04:58.565 It had the right to open preliminary investigations 0:04:58.565,0:05:02.262 and to interrogate people officially. 0:05:02.262,0:05:04.353 Last but not least, 0:05:04.353,0:05:08.218 the Stasi had its own armed forces. 0:05:08.218,0:05:10.062 More than 11,000 soldiers were serving 0:05:10.062,0:05:13.732 in its so-called Guards Regiment. 0:05:13.732,0:05:18.148 It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings. 0:05:18.148,0:05:20.875 Due to this concentration of power, 0:05:20.875,0:05:25.940 the Stasi was called a state in the state. 0:05:25.940,0:05:28.199 But let's look more and more details 0:05:28.199,0:05:30.816 at the tools of the Stasi. 0:05:30.816,0:05:32.459 Please keep in mind that at that time 0:05:32.459,0:05:36.284 the web and smartphones were not yet invented. 0:05:36.284,0:05:39.525 Of course, the Stasi used all kinds 0:05:39.525,0:05:42.598 of technical instruments to survey people. 0:05:42.598,0:05:44.711 Telephones were wiretapped, 0:05:44.711,0:05:48.850 including the phone of the[br]German chancellor in the West, 0:05:48.850,0:05:51.802 and often also the apartments. 0:05:51.802,0:05:55.195 Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened 0:05:55.195,0:05:58.541 by these machines. 0:05:58.541,0:06:02.239 The Stasi also shadowed[br]tens of thousands of people 0:06:02.239,0:06:05.471 using specially trained agents and secret cameras 0:06:05.471,0:06:09.006 to document every step one took. 0:06:09.006,0:06:11.674 In this picture, you can see me 0:06:11.674,0:06:15.154 as a young man just in front of this building 0:06:15.154,0:06:18.908 where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent. 0:06:18.908,0:06:23.304 The Stasi even collected the smell of people. 0:06:23.304,0:06:26.563 It stored samples of it in closed jars 0:06:26.563,0:06:31.022 which were found after the peaceful revolution. 0:06:31.022,0:06:35.258 For all these tasks, highly specialized departments 0:06:35.258,0:06:37.626 were responsible. 0:06:37.626,0:06:39.806 The one which was tapping phone calls 0:06:39.806,0:06:41.696 was completely separated 0:06:41.696,0:06:44.242 from the one which controlled the letters, 0:06:44.242,0:06:45.540 for good reasons, 0:06:45.540,0:06:50.217 because if one agent had quit the Stasi, 0:06:50.217,0:06:52.131 his knowledge was very small. 0:06:52.131,0:06:56.119 Contrast that with Snowden, for example. 0:06:56.119,0:06:59.196 But the vertical specialization was also important 0:06:59.196,0:07:01.501 to prevent all kinds of empathy 0:07:01.501,0:07:04.496 with the object of observation. 0:07:04.496,0:07:06.800 The agent who shadowed me 0:07:06.800,0:07:08.657 didn't know who I was 0:07:08.657,0:07:10.522 or why I was surveyed. 0:07:10.522,0:07:12.136 In fact, I smuggled forbidden books 0:07:12.136,0:07:15.028 from West to East Germany. 0:07:15.028,0:07:18.220 But what was even more typical for the Stasi 0:07:18.220,0:07:21.384 was the use of human intelligence, 0:07:21.384,0:07:25.577 people who reported secretly to the Stasi. 0:07:25.577,0:07:27.379 For the Minister of State Security, 0:07:27.379,0:07:30.291 these so-called unofficial employees 0:07:30.291,0:07:33.186 were the most important tools. 0:07:33.186,0:07:38.509 From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people 0:07:38.509,0:07:41.346 collaborated constantly with the Stasi, 0:07:41.346,0:07:46.222 more than one percent of the population. 0:07:46.222,0:07:48.950 And in a way, the minister was right, 0:07:48.950,0:07:50.891 because technical instruments 0:07:50.891,0:07:54.463 can only register what people are doing, 0:07:54.463,0:07:57.771 but agents and spies can also report 0:07:57.771,0:07:59.474 what people are planning to do 0:07:59.474,0:08:01.834 and what they are thinking. 0:08:01.834,0:08:06.615 Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants. 0:08:06.615,0:08:09.459 The system of how to get them 0:08:09.459,0:08:12.491 and how to educate them, as it was called, 0:08:12.491,0:08:15.181 was very sophisticated. 0:08:15.181,0:08:18.088 The Stasi had its own university, 0:08:18.088,0:08:19.608 not far away from here, 0:08:19.608,0:08:21.535 where the methods were explored 0:08:21.535,0:08:24.204 and taught to the officers. 0:08:24.204,0:08:27.955 This guideline gave a detailed description 0:08:27.955,0:08:30.578 of every step you have to take 0:08:30.578,0:08:32.940 if you want to convince human beings 0:08:32.940,0:08:36.920 to betray their fellow citizens. 0:08:36.920,0:08:40.264 Sometimes, it's said that informants were pressured 0:08:40.264,0:08:41.720 to becoming one, 0:08:41.720,0:08:44.314 but that's mostly not true, 0:08:44.314,0:08:48.225 because a forced informant is a bad informant. 0:08:48.225,0:08:51.312 Only someone who wants to give[br]you the information you need 0:08:51.312,0:08:53.973 is an effective whistleblower. 0:08:53.973,0:08:58.830 The main reasons why people[br]cooperated with the Stasi 0:08:58.830,0:09:04.330 were political conviction and material benefits. 0:09:04.330,0:09:07.440 The officers also tried to create a personal bond 0:09:07.440,0:09:10.848 between themselves and the informant, 0:09:10.848,0:09:16.000 and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows 0:09:16.000,0:09:19.392 that it's not so difficult to win someone 0:09:19.392,0:09:22.835 in order to betray others. 0:09:22.835,0:09:26.586 Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany 0:09:26.586,0:09:28.421 collaborated with the Stasi, 0:09:28.421,0:09:32.166 as for instance Ibrahim Böhme. 0:09:32.166,0:09:34.956 In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution 0:09:34.956,0:09:39.330 and he nearly became the first freely[br]elected Prime Minister of the GDR 0:09:39.330,0:09:44.475 until it came out that he was an informant. 0:09:44.475,0:09:48.404 The net of spies was really broad. 0:09:48.404,0:09:50.110 In nearly every institution, 0:09:50.110,0:09:53.355 even in the churches or in West Germany, 0:09:53.355,0:09:55.543 there were many of them. 0:09:55.543,0:09:59.032 I remember telling a leading Stasi officer, 0:09:59.032,0:10:02.461 "If you had sent an informant to me, 0:10:02.461,0:10:05.091 I would surely have recognized him." 0:10:05.091,0:10:06.950 His answer was, 0:10:06.950,0:10:08.393 "We didn't send anyone. 0:10:08.393,0:10:11.415 We took those who were around you." 0:10:11.415,0:10:14.070 And in fact, two of my best friends 0:10:14.070,0:10:18.401 reported about me to the Stasi. 0:10:18.401,0:10:20.940 Not only in my case, informers were very close. 0:10:20.940,0:10:24.693 For example, Vera Lengsfeld,[br]another leading dissident, 0:10:24.693,0:10:28.906 in her case it was her husband who spied on her. 0:10:28.906,0:10:32.259 The famous writer was betrayed by his brother. 0:10:32.259,0:10:36.151 This reminds of the novel "1984" by George Orwell, 0:10:36.151,0:10:39.230 where the only apparently trustable person 0:10:39.230,0:10:42.043 was an informer. 0:10:42.043,0:10:45.740 But why did the Stasi collect all this information 0:10:45.740,0:10:47.661 in its archives? 0:10:47.661,0:10:51.720 The main purpose was to control the society. 0:10:51.720,0:10:54.303 In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister 0:10:54.303,0:10:57.025 gave the order to find out who is who, 0:10:57.025,0:11:00.119 what meant who thinks what. 0:11:00.119,0:11:01.870 He didn't want to wait until somebody 0:11:01.870,0:11:04.390 tried to act against the regime. 0:11:04.390,0:11:06.280 He wanted to know in advance 0:11:06.280,0:11:09.175 what people were thinking and planning. 0:11:09.175,0:11:11.997 The East Germans knew, of course, 0:11:11.997,0:11:15.167 that they were surrounded by informers, 0:11:15.167,0:11:19.140 and the totalitarian regime that creates mistrust 0:11:19.140,0:11:22.234 and the state of widespread fear, 0:11:22.234,0:11:25.750 the most important tools to oppress people 0:11:25.750,0:11:27.909 in any dictatorship. 0:11:27.909,0:11:30.512 That's why not many East Germans tried 0:11:30.512,0:11:34.796 to fight against the Communist regime. 0:11:34.796,0:11:39.378 If yes, the Stasi often used a method 0:11:39.378,0:11:42.050 which was really diabolic. 0:11:42.050,0:11:44.236 It was called "Zersetzung," 0:11:44.236,0:11:47.907 and it's described in another guideline. 0:11:47.907,0:11:50.707 The word is difficult to translate because it means 0:11:50.707,0:11:54.605 originally "biodegradation." 0:11:54.605,0:11:57.959 But actually, it's a quite accurate description. 0:11:57.959,0:12:01.518 The goal was to destroy secretly 0:12:01.518,0:12:04.408 the self-confidence of people, 0:12:04.408,0:12:07.521 for example by damaging their reputation, 0:12:07.521,0:12:10.990 by organizing failures in their work, 0:12:10.990,0:12:15.620 and by destroying their personal relationships. 0:12:15.620,0:12:20.995 Considering this, East Germany[br]was a very modern dictatorship. 0:12:20.995,0:12:25.366 The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident. 0:12:25.366,0:12:28.457 It preferred to paralyze them, 0:12:28.457,0:12:30.960 and it could do so because 0:12:30.960,0:12:34.310 it had access to so much personal information 0:12:34.310,0:12:38.240 and to so many institutions. 0:12:38.240,0:12:40.512 Detaining someone was used only 0:12:40.512,0:12:43.042 as a last resort. 0:12:43.042,0:12:46.347 For this, the Stasi owned 17 remote prisons, 0:12:46.347,0:12:48.864 one in every district. 0:12:48.864,0:12:51.538 Here, the Stasi also developed 0:12:51.538,0:12:55.980 quite modern methods of detention. 0:12:55.980,0:12:57.763 Normally, the interrogation officer 0:12:57.763,0:13:01.226 didn't torture the prisoner. 0:13:01.226,0:13:03.802 Instead, he used a sophisticated system 0:13:03.802,0:13:05.940 of psychological pressure 0:13:05.940,0:13:10.034 in which strict isolation was central. 0:13:10.034,0:13:12.318 Nearly no prisoner resisted 0:13:12.318,0:13:15.547 without giving a testimony. 0:13:15.547,0:13:17.609 If you have the occasion, 0:13:17.609,0:13:21.060 do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin 0:13:21.060,0:13:24.649 and attend a guided tour[br]with a former political prisoner 0:13:24.649,0:13:27.505 who will explain to you how this worked. 0:13:27.505,0:13:30.664 One more question needs to be answered: 0:13:30.664,0:13:33.106 if the Stasi was so well-organized, 0:13:33.106,0:13:37.439 why did the Communist regime collapse? 0:13:37.439,0:13:41.570 First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany 0:13:41.570,0:13:43.831 was uncertain what to do against 0:13:43.831,0:13:46.768 the growing protest of people. 0:13:46.768,0:13:49.119 It was especially confused 0:13:49.119,0:13:51.890 because, in the mother country of socialism, 0:13:51.890,0:13:53.410 the Soviet Union, 0:13:53.410,0:13:56.793 a more liberal policy took place. 0:13:56.793,0:13:59.210 In addition, the regime was dependent 0:13:59.210,0:14:02.602 on the loans from the West. 0:14:02.602,0:14:05.150 Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising 0:14:05.150,0:14:08.227 was given to the Stasi. 0:14:08.227,0:14:11.860 Secondly, in the Communist ideology, 0:14:11.860,0:14:14.513 there's no place for criticism. 0:14:14.513,0:14:16.820 Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief 0:14:16.820,0:14:19.614 that socialism is a perfect system, 0:14:19.614,0:14:23.865 and the Stasi had to conform that, of course. 0:14:23.865,0:14:26.226 The consequence was 0:14:26.226,0:14:28.722 that despite all the information, 0:14:28.722,0:14:32.886 the regime couldn't analyze its real problems, 0:14:32.886,0:14:35.571 and therefore it couldn't solve them. 0:14:35.571,0:14:38.275 In the end, the Stasi died 0:14:38.275,0:14:40.068 because of the structures 0:14:40.068,0:14:43.788 that it was charged with protecting. 0:14:43.788,0:14:45.858 The ending of the Stasi 0:14:45.858,0:14:47.905 was something tragic, 0:14:47.905,0:14:49.964 because these officers 0:14:49.964,0:14:53.032 were kept busy during the peaceful revolution 0:14:53.032,0:14:55.007 with only one thing: 0:14:55.007,0:14:57.660 to destroy the documents 0:14:57.660,0:15:01.351 they had produced during decades. 0:15:01.351,0:15:03.269 Fortunately, 0:15:03.269,0:15:06.806 they had been stopped by human rights activists. 0:15:06.806,0:15:09.732 That's why today, we can use the files 0:15:09.732,0:15:11.356 to get a better understanding 0:15:11.356,0:15:14.136 of how a surveillance state functions. 0:15:14.136,0:15:16.133 Thank you. 0:15:16.133,0:15:20.439 (Applause) 0:15:24.518,0:15:26.788 Moderator: Thank you. Thank you very much. 0:15:26.788,0:15:31.513 Thanks. 0:15:31.513,0:15:33.302 So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions 0:15:33.302,0:15:36.090 because I have here "Der Spiegel" from last week, 0:15:36.090,0:15:40.964 "Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA. 0:15:40.964,0:15:43.595 And you just told us about my neighbor, 0:15:43.595,0:15:46.583 the spies and the informant from Eastern Germany. 0:15:46.583,0:15:49.283 So there is a direct link between these two stories 0:15:49.283,0:15:51.161 or there isn't? 0:15:51.161,0:15:53.183 What's your reaction as a[br]historian when you see this? 0:15:53.183,0:15:54.908 Hubertus Knabe: I think there are 0:15:54.908,0:15:56.671 several aspects to mention. 0:15:56.671,0:15:59.877 At first, I think there's a difference 0:15:59.877,0:16:03.965 for why you are collecting this data. 0:16:03.965,0:16:06.283 Are you doing that for protecting your people 0:16:06.283,0:16:07.830 against terrorist attacks, 0:16:07.830,0:16:10.600 or are you doing that for oppressing your people? 0:16:10.600,0:16:12.542 So that makes a fundamental difference. 0:16:12.542,0:16:14.891 But on the other hand side, 0:16:14.891,0:16:19.210 also in a democracy, these[br]instruments can be abused, 0:16:19.210,0:16:21.376 and that is something where we really have 0:16:21.376,0:16:22.761 to be aware to stop that, 0:16:22.761,0:16:25.634 and also the intelligence services 0:16:25.634,0:16:28.755 are respecting the rules we have. 0:16:28.755,0:16:30.255 The third point, probably, 0:16:30.255,0:16:33.543 we really can be happy that we live in a democracy, 0:16:33.543,0:16:37.223 because you can be sure that Russia and China 0:16:37.223,0:16:38.755 are doing the same, 0:16:38.755,0:16:40.321 but nobody speaks about that 0:16:40.321,0:16:42.612 because nobody could do that. 0:16:42.612,0:16:47.576 (Applause) 0:16:49.398,0:16:51.451 Moderator: When the story came out first, 0:16:51.451,0:16:53.646 last July, last year, 0:16:53.646,0:16:56.474 you filed a criminal complaint 0:16:56.474,0:16:59.454 with a German tribunal. Why? 0:16:59.454,0:17:02.667 HK: Yeah, I did so because of[br]the second point I mentioned, 0:17:02.667,0:17:05.564 that I think especially in a democracy, 0:17:05.564,0:17:09.022 the rules are for everybody. 0:17:09.022,0:17:11.386 They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed 0:17:11.386,0:17:15.177 that any institution doesn't respect the rules. 0:17:15.177,0:17:17.155 In the criminal code of Germany, it's written 0:17:17.155,0:17:19.010 that it's not allowed to tap somebody 0:17:19.010,0:17:21.398 without a permission of the judge. 0:17:21.398,0:17:25.219 Fortunately, it's written in[br]the criminal code of Germany, 0:17:25.219,0:17:29.150 so if it's not respected, than I think 0:17:29.150,0:17:31.046 an investigation is necessary, 0:17:31.046,0:17:33.025 and it took a very long time that 0:17:33.025,0:17:35.131 the public prosecutor of Germany started this, 0:17:35.131,0:17:38.702 and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel, 0:17:38.702,0:17:41.658 and not in the case of all the[br]other people living in Germany. 0:17:41.658,0:17:44.131 Moderator: That doesn't surprise me because, 0:17:44.131,0:17:46.254 — Yeah? (Applause) — 0:17:46.254,0:17:49.697 because of the story you told. 0:17:49.697,0:17:52.180 Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany, 0:17:52.180,0:17:53.957 and I expected the Germans to react 0:17:53.957,0:17:57.177 much more strongly, immediately. 0:17:57.177,0:17:59.789 And instead, the reaction really came only 0:17:59.789,0:18:01.646 when Chancellor Merkel was revealed 0:18:01.646,0:18:05.201 as being wiretapped. Why so? 0:18:05.201,0:18:07.064 HK: I take it as a good sign, 0:18:07.064,0:18:11.394 because people feel secure in this democracy. 0:18:11.394,0:18:13.608 They aren't afraid that they will be arrested, 0:18:13.608,0:18:16.771 and if you leave this hall after the conference, 0:18:16.771,0:18:19.335 nobody has to be afraid that the secret police 0:18:19.335,0:18:21.773 is standing out and is arresting you. 0:18:21.773,0:18:23.367 So that's a good sign, I think. 0:18:23.367,0:18:26.242 People are not really scared, as they could be. 0:18:26.242,0:18:30.596 But of course, I think, the institutions 0:18:30.596,0:18:33.163 are responsible to stop illegal actions 0:18:33.163,0:18:36.281 in Germany or wherever they happen. 0:18:36.281,0:18:39.474 Moderator: A personal question,[br]and this is the last one. 0:18:39.474,0:18:41.740 There has been a debate in Germany about 0:18:41.740,0:18:43.281 granting asylum to Edward Snowden. 0:18:43.281,0:18:46.046 Would you be in favor or against? 0:18:46.046,0:18:47.734 HK: Oh, that's a difficult question, 0:18:47.734,0:18:49.420 but if you ask me, 0:18:49.420,0:18:51.075 and if I answer honestly, 0:18:51.075,0:18:52.841 I would give him the asylum, 0:18:52.841,0:18:54.890 because I think it was really brave what he did, 0:18:54.890,0:18:57.502 and he destroyed his whole life 0:18:57.502,0:18:59.171 and his family and everything. 0:18:59.171,0:19:02.380 So I think, for these people,[br]we should do something, 0:19:02.380,0:19:06.534 and especially if you see the German history, 0:19:06.534,0:19:09.031 where so many people had to escape 0:19:09.031,0:19:11.347 and they asked for asylum in other countries 0:19:11.347,0:19:12.730 and they didn't get it, 0:19:12.730,0:19:15.567 so it would be a good sign to give him asylum. 0:19:15.567,0:19:17.378 (Applause) 0:19:17.378,0:19:23.680 Moderator: Hubertus, thank you very much.