WEBVTT 00:00:00.992 --> 00:00:02.740 This year, Germany is celebrating 00:00:02.740 --> 00:00:05.556 the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution 00:00:05.556 --> 00:00:07.412 in East Germany. 00:00:07.412 --> 00:00:11.858 In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away, 00:00:11.858 --> 00:00:15.000 the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later, 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:19.485 the German Democratic Republic, the GDR, 00:00:19.485 --> 00:00:21.454 and the East, was unified 00:00:21.454 --> 00:00:24.244 with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West 00:00:24.244 --> 00:00:27.597 to found today's Germany. 00:00:27.597 --> 00:00:30.511 Among many other things, Germany inherited 00:00:30.511 --> 00:00:35.664 the archives of the East German secret police, 00:00:35.664 --> 00:00:38.420 known as the Stasi. 00:00:38.420 --> 00:00:40.960 Only two years after its dissolution, 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:45.302 its documents were opened to the public, 00:00:45.302 --> 00:00:47.677 and historians such as me started 00:00:47.677 --> 00:00:49.105 to study these documents 00:00:49.105 --> 00:00:53.797 to learn all about how the GDR surveillance state 00:00:53.797 --> 00:00:55.507 functioned. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:55.507 --> 00:00:58.533 Perhaps you have watched the movie 00:00:58.533 --> 00:01:00.681 "The Lives Of Others." 00:01:00.681 --> 00:01:05.642 This movie made the Stasi known worldwide, 00:01:05.642 --> 00:01:07.892 and as we live in an age where words 00:01:07.892 --> 00:01:11.369 such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping" 00:01:11.369 --> 00:01:13.979 are on the front pages of newspapers, 00:01:13.979 --> 00:01:16.802 I would like to speak about how the Stasi 00:01:16.802 --> 00:01:19.581 really worked. NOTE Paragraph 00:01:19.581 --> 00:01:22.012 At the beginning, let's have a short look 00:01:22.012 --> 00:01:24.228 at the history of the Stasi, 00:01:24.228 --> 00:01:26.219 because it's really important for understanding 00:01:26.219 --> 00:01:29.706 its self-conception. 00:01:29.706 --> 00:01:32.418 Its origins are located in Russia. 00:01:32.418 --> 00:01:34.736 In 1917, the Russian Communists founded 00:01:34.736 --> 00:01:37.031 the Emergency Commission for Combating 00:01:37.031 --> 00:01:39.731 Counter-Revolution and Sabotage, 00:01:39.731 --> 00:01:42.049 shortly Cheka. 00:01:42.049 --> 00:01:45.390 It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky. 00:01:45.390 --> 00:01:48.203 The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists 00:01:48.203 --> 00:01:51.960 to establish their regime by terrorizing the population 00:01:51.960 --> 00:01:54.885 and executing the enemies. 00:01:54.885 --> 00:02:00.634 It evolved later into the well-known KGB. 00:02:00.634 --> 00:02:03.750 The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers. 00:02:03.750 --> 00:02:06.822 They called themselves Chekists, 00:02:06.822 --> 00:02:10.006 and even the emblem was very similar, 00:02:10.006 --> 00:02:12.661 as you can see here. 00:02:12.661 --> 00:02:16.227 In fact, the secret police of Russia 00:02:16.227 --> 00:02:19.758 was the creator and instructor of the Stasi. 00:02:19.758 --> 00:02:23.369 When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945, 00:02:23.369 --> 00:02:25.867 it immediately expanded there, 00:02:25.867 --> 00:02:29.118 and soon it started to train the German Communists 00:02:29.118 --> 00:02:32.696 to build up their own secret police. 00:02:32.696 --> 00:02:36.206 By the way, in this hall where we are now, 00:02:36.206 --> 00:02:41.786 the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:41.786 --> 00:02:45.082 Five years later, the Stasi was established, 00:02:45.082 --> 00:02:47.929 and step by step, the dirty job of oppression 00:02:47.929 --> 00:02:50.561 was handed over to it. 00:02:50.561 --> 00:02:52.542 For instance, the central jail 00:02:52.542 --> 00:02:54.206 for political prisoners, 00:02:54.206 --> 00:02:56.794 which was established by the Russians, 00:02:56.794 --> 00:02:58.864 was taken over by the Stasi 00:02:58.864 --> 00:03:02.318 and used until the end of the Communism. 00:03:02.318 --> 00:03:04.006 You see it here. 00:03:04.006 --> 00:03:06.875 At the beginning, every important step 00:03:06.875 --> 00:03:11.150 took place under the attendance of the Russians. 00:03:11.150 --> 00:03:14.401 But the Germans are known to be very effective, 00:03:14.401 --> 00:03:17.709 so the Stasi grew very quickly, 00:03:17.709 --> 00:03:21.207 and already in 1953, it had more employees 00:03:21.207 --> 00:03:23.145 than the Gestapo had, 00:03:23.145 --> 00:03:25.865 the secret police of Nazi Germany. 00:03:25.865 --> 00:03:28.363 The number doubled in each decade. 00:03:28.363 --> 00:03:31.558 In 1989, more than 90,000 employees 00:03:31.558 --> 00:03:33.663 worked for the Stasi. 00:03:33.663 --> 00:03:35.597 This meant that one employee 00:03:35.597 --> 00:03:39.006 was responsible for 180 inhabitants, 00:03:39.006 --> 00:03:42.989 which was really unique in the world. NOTE Paragraph 00:03:42.989 --> 00:03:45.655 At the top of this tremendous apparatus, 00:03:45.655 --> 00:03:49.469 there was one man, Erich Mielke. 00:03:49.469 --> 00:03:52.067 He ruled the Ministry of State Security 00:03:52.067 --> 00:03:54.239 for more than 30 years. 00:03:54.239 --> 00:03:56.400 He was a scrupulous functionary 00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:59.122 — In his past, he killed two policemen 00:03:59.122 --> 00:04:01.068 not far away from here — 00:04:01.068 --> 00:04:05.647 who in fact personalized the Stasi. NOTE Paragraph 00:04:05.647 --> 00:04:10.012 But what was so exceptional about the Stasi? 00:04:10.012 --> 00:04:12.780 Foremost, it was its enormous power, 00:04:12.780 --> 00:04:16.009 because it united different functions 00:04:16.009 --> 00:04:18.945 in one organization. 00:04:18.945 --> 00:04:20.846 First of all, the Stasi 00:04:20.846 --> 00:04:23.571 was an intelligence service. 00:04:23.571 --> 00:04:26.073 It used all the imaginable instruments 00:04:26.073 --> 00:04:28.333 for getting information secretly, 00:04:28.333 --> 00:04:31.934 such as informers, or tapping phones, 00:04:31.934 --> 00:04:35.152 as you can see it on the picture here. 00:04:35.152 --> 00:04:37.806 And it was not only active in East Germany, 00:04:37.806 --> 00:04:40.653 but all over the world. 00:04:40.653 --> 00:04:44.826 Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police. 00:04:44.826 --> 00:04:47.110 It could stop people on the street 00:04:47.110 --> 00:04:51.318 and arrest them in its own prisons. 00:04:51.318 --> 00:04:53.031 Thirdly, the Stasi worked 00:04:53.031 --> 00:04:55.635 as a kind of public prosecutor. 00:04:55.635 --> 00:04:58.745 It had the right to open preliminary investigations 00:04:58.745 --> 00:05:02.672 and to interrogate people officially. 00:05:02.672 --> 00:05:04.483 Last but not least, 00:05:04.483 --> 00:05:08.308 the Stasi had its own armed forces. 00:05:08.308 --> 00:05:10.502 More than 11,000 soldiers were serving 00:05:10.502 --> 00:05:13.922 in its so-called Guards Regiment. 00:05:13.922 --> 00:05:18.468 It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings. 00:05:18.468 --> 00:05:21.135 Due to this concentration of power, 00:05:21.135 --> 00:05:26.093 the Stasi was called a state in the state. NOTE Paragraph 00:05:26.093 --> 00:05:28.409 But let's look more and more details 00:05:28.409 --> 00:05:30.816 at the tools of the Stasi. 00:05:30.816 --> 00:05:32.459 Please keep in mind that at that time 00:05:32.459 --> 00:05:36.284 the web and smartphones were not yet invented. 00:05:36.284 --> 00:05:39.525 Of course, the Stasi used all kinds 00:05:39.525 --> 00:05:42.888 of technical instruments to survey people. 00:05:42.888 --> 00:05:44.711 Telephones were wiretapped, 00:05:44.711 --> 00:05:49.077 including the phone of the German chancellor in the West, 00:05:49.077 --> 00:05:52.272 and often also the apartments. 00:05:52.272 --> 00:05:55.355 Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened 00:05:55.355 --> 00:05:58.841 by these machines. 00:05:58.841 --> 00:06:02.239 The Stasi also shadowed tens of thousands of people 00:06:02.239 --> 00:06:05.581 using specially trained agents and secret cameras 00:06:05.581 --> 00:06:09.326 to document every step one took. 00:06:09.326 --> 00:06:11.994 In this picture, you can see me 00:06:11.994 --> 00:06:15.514 as a young man just in front of this building 00:06:15.514 --> 00:06:19.148 where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent. 00:06:19.148 --> 00:06:23.424 The Stasi even collected the smell of people. 00:06:23.424 --> 00:06:26.563 It stored samples of it in closed jars 00:06:26.563 --> 00:06:31.262 which were found after the peaceful revolution. 00:06:31.262 --> 00:06:35.258 For all these tasks, highly specialized departments 00:06:35.258 --> 00:06:37.626 were responsible. 00:06:37.626 --> 00:06:39.806 The one which was tapping phone calls 00:06:39.806 --> 00:06:41.696 was completely separated 00:06:41.696 --> 00:06:44.442 from the one which controlled the letters, 00:06:44.442 --> 00:06:46.072 for good reasons, 00:06:46.072 --> 00:06:50.217 because if one agent had quit the Stasi, 00:06:50.217 --> 00:06:52.401 his knowledge was very small. 00:06:52.401 --> 00:06:56.539 Contrast that with Snowden, for example. 00:06:56.539 --> 00:06:59.296 But the vertical specialization was also important 00:06:59.296 --> 00:07:01.501 to prevent all kinds of empathy 00:07:01.501 --> 00:07:04.786 with the object of observation. 00:07:04.786 --> 00:07:06.800 The agent who shadowed me 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:08.657 didn't know who I was 00:07:08.657 --> 00:07:10.782 or why I was surveyed. 00:07:10.782 --> 00:07:12.346 In fact, I smuggled forbidden books 00:07:12.346 --> 00:07:15.418 from West to East Germany. NOTE Paragraph 00:07:15.418 --> 00:07:18.220 But what was even more typical for the Stasi 00:07:18.220 --> 00:07:21.384 was the use of human intelligence, 00:07:21.384 --> 00:07:25.577 people who reported secretly to the Stasi. 00:07:25.577 --> 00:07:27.669 For the Minister of State Security, 00:07:27.669 --> 00:07:30.291 these so-called unofficial employees 00:07:30.291 --> 00:07:33.486 were the most important tools. 00:07:33.486 --> 00:07:38.509 From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people 00:07:38.509 --> 00:07:41.536 collaborated constantly with the Stasi, 00:07:41.536 --> 00:07:46.362 more than one percent of the population. 00:07:46.362 --> 00:07:48.950 And in a way, the minister was right, 00:07:48.950 --> 00:07:50.891 because technical instruments 00:07:50.891 --> 00:07:54.463 can only register what people are doing, 00:07:54.463 --> 00:07:57.771 but agents and spies can also report 00:07:57.771 --> 00:07:59.654 what people are planning to do 00:07:59.654 --> 00:08:02.264 and what they are thinking. 00:08:02.264 --> 00:08:06.955 Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants. 00:08:06.955 --> 00:08:09.459 The system of how to get them 00:08:09.459 --> 00:08:12.671 and how to educate them, as it was called, 00:08:12.671 --> 00:08:15.491 was very sophisticated. 00:08:15.491 --> 00:08:18.338 The Stasi had its own university, 00:08:18.338 --> 00:08:19.968 not far away from here, 00:08:19.968 --> 00:08:21.655 where the methods were explored 00:08:21.655 --> 00:08:24.344 and taught to the officers. 00:08:24.344 --> 00:08:28.215 This guideline gave a detailed description 00:08:28.215 --> 00:08:30.578 of every step you have to take 00:08:30.578 --> 00:08:33.086 if you want to convince human beings 00:08:33.086 --> 00:08:37.047 to betray their fellow citizens. 00:08:37.047 --> 00:08:40.264 Sometimes, it's said that informants were pressured 00:08:40.264 --> 00:08:42.064 to becoming one, 00:08:42.064 --> 00:08:44.314 but that's mostly not true, 00:08:44.314 --> 00:08:48.455 because a forced informant is a bad informant. 00:08:48.455 --> 00:08:51.312 Only someone who wants to give you the information you need 00:08:51.312 --> 00:08:54.643 is an effective whistleblower. 00:08:54.643 --> 00:08:59.066 The main reasons why people cooperated with the Stasi 00:08:59.066 --> 00:09:04.093 were political conviction and material benefits. 00:09:04.093 --> 00:09:07.770 The officers also tried to create a personal bond 00:09:07.770 --> 00:09:11.428 between themselves and the informant, 00:09:11.428 --> 00:09:16.074 and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows 00:09:16.074 --> 00:09:18.932 that it's not so difficult to win someone 00:09:18.932 --> 00:09:23.195 in order to betray others. 00:09:23.195 --> 00:09:26.586 Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany 00:09:26.586 --> 00:09:28.421 collaborated with the Stasi, 00:09:28.421 --> 00:09:32.166 as for instance Ibrahim Böhme. 00:09:32.166 --> 00:09:34.956 In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution 00:09:34.956 --> 00:09:39.480 and he nearly became the first freely elected Prime Minister of the GDR 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:44.575 until it came out that he was an informant. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:44.575 --> 00:09:48.614 The net of spies was really broad. 00:09:48.614 --> 00:09:50.350 In nearly every institution, 00:09:50.350 --> 00:09:53.355 even in the churches or in West Germany, 00:09:53.355 --> 00:09:55.763 there were many of them. 00:09:55.763 --> 00:09:59.352 I remember telling a leading Stasi officer, 00:09:59.352 --> 00:10:02.671 "If you had sent an informant to me, 00:10:02.671 --> 00:10:05.461 I would surely have recognized him." 00:10:05.461 --> 00:10:07.070 His answer was, 00:10:07.070 --> 00:10:08.623 "We didn't send anyone. 00:10:08.623 --> 00:10:11.705 We took those who were around you." 00:10:11.705 --> 00:10:14.056 And in fact, two of my best friends 00:10:14.056 --> 00:10:18.691 reported about me to the Stasi. 00:10:18.691 --> 00:10:21.470 Not only in my case, informers were very close. 00:10:21.470 --> 00:10:24.823 For example, Vera Lengsfeld, another leading dissident, 00:10:24.823 --> 00:10:28.906 in her case it was her husband who spied on her. 00:10:28.906 --> 00:10:32.549 The famous writer was betrayed by his brother. 00:10:32.549 --> 00:10:36.251 This reminds of the novel "1984" by George Orwell, 00:10:36.251 --> 00:10:39.300 where the only apparently trustable person 00:10:39.300 --> 00:10:42.393 was an informer. NOTE Paragraph 00:10:42.393 --> 00:10:46.068 But why did the Stasi collect all this information 00:10:46.068 --> 00:10:47.991 in its archives? 00:10:47.991 --> 00:10:52.015 The main purpose was to control the society. 00:10:52.015 --> 00:10:54.303 In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister 00:10:54.303 --> 00:10:57.465 gave the order to find out who is who, 00:10:57.465 --> 00:11:00.339 what meant who thinks what. 00:11:00.339 --> 00:11:02.094 He didn't want to wait until somebody 00:11:02.094 --> 00:11:04.670 tried to act against the regime. 00:11:04.670 --> 00:11:06.280 He wanted to know in advance 00:11:06.280 --> 00:11:09.535 what people were thinking and planning. 00:11:09.535 --> 00:11:12.197 The East Germans knew, of course, 00:11:12.197 --> 00:11:15.627 that they were surrounded by informers, 00:11:15.627 --> 00:11:19.140 and the totalitarian regime that creates mistrust 00:11:19.140 --> 00:11:22.584 and the state of widespread fear, 00:11:22.584 --> 00:11:25.910 the most important tools to oppress people 00:11:25.910 --> 00:11:28.309 in any dictatorship. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:28.309 --> 00:11:30.512 That's why not many East Germans tried 00:11:30.512 --> 00:11:35.506 to fight against the Communist regime. 00:11:35.506 --> 00:11:39.378 If yes, the Stasi often used a method 00:11:39.378 --> 00:11:42.045 which was really diabolic. 00:11:42.045 --> 00:11:44.576 It was called "Zersetzung," 00:11:44.576 --> 00:11:48.377 and it's described in another guideline. 00:11:48.377 --> 00:11:50.707 The word is difficult to translate because it means 00:11:50.707 --> 00:11:54.605 originally "biodegradation." 00:11:54.605 --> 00:11:58.199 But actually, it's a quite accurate description. 00:11:58.199 --> 00:12:01.518 The goal was to destroy secretly 00:12:01.518 --> 00:12:04.578 the self-confidence of people, 00:12:04.578 --> 00:12:07.701 for example by damaging their reputation, 00:12:07.701 --> 00:12:10.990 by organizing failures in their work, 00:12:10.990 --> 00:12:16.019 and by destroying their personal relationships. 00:12:16.019 --> 00:12:21.375 Considering this, East Germany was a very modern dictatorship. 00:12:21.375 --> 00:12:25.596 The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident. 00:12:25.596 --> 00:12:28.777 It preferred to paralyze them, 00:12:28.777 --> 00:12:30.960 and it could do so because 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:34.099 it had access to so much personal information 00:12:34.099 --> 00:12:38.410 and to so many institutions. 00:12:38.410 --> 00:12:40.512 Detaining someone was used only 00:12:40.512 --> 00:12:43.392 as a last resort. 00:12:43.392 --> 00:12:46.607 For this, the Stasi owned 17 remote prisons, 00:12:46.607 --> 00:12:49.214 one in every district. 00:12:49.214 --> 00:12:51.538 Here, the Stasi also developed 00:12:51.538 --> 00:12:56.290 quite modern methods of detention. 00:12:56.290 --> 00:12:58.143 Normally, the interrogation officer 00:12:58.143 --> 00:13:01.226 didn't torture the prisoner. 00:13:01.226 --> 00:13:03.802 Instead, he used a sophisticated system 00:13:03.802 --> 00:13:06.097 of psychological pressure 00:13:06.097 --> 00:13:10.204 in which strict isolation was central. 00:13:10.204 --> 00:13:12.408 Nearly no prisoner resisted 00:13:12.408 --> 00:13:15.877 without giving a testimony. 00:13:15.877 --> 00:13:17.719 If you have the occasion, 00:13:17.719 --> 00:13:21.039 do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:24.649 and attend a guided tour with a former political prisoner 00:13:24.649 --> 00:13:27.565 who will explain to you how this worked. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:27.565 --> 00:13:30.904 One more question needs to be answered: 00:13:30.904 --> 00:13:33.256 if the Stasi was so well-organized, 00:13:33.256 --> 00:13:37.879 why did the Communist regime collapse? 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:41.570 First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany 00:13:41.570 --> 00:13:43.831 was uncertain what to do against 00:13:43.831 --> 00:13:46.768 the growing protest of people. 00:13:46.768 --> 00:13:49.119 It was especially confused 00:13:49.119 --> 00:13:52.078 because, in the mother country of socialism, 00:13:52.078 --> 00:13:53.810 the Soviet Union, 00:13:53.810 --> 00:13:57.253 a more liberal policy took place. 00:13:57.253 --> 00:13:59.210 In addition, the regime was dependent 00:13:59.210 --> 00:14:02.602 on the loans from the West. 00:14:02.602 --> 00:14:05.550 Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising 00:14:05.550 --> 00:14:08.687 was given to the Stasi. 00:14:08.687 --> 00:14:12.073 Secondly, in the Communist ideology, 00:14:12.073 --> 00:14:14.863 there's no place for criticism. 00:14:14.863 --> 00:14:16.820 Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief 00:14:16.820 --> 00:14:19.894 that socialism is a perfect system, 00:14:19.894 --> 00:14:24.335 and the Stasi had to conform that, of course. 00:14:24.335 --> 00:14:26.406 The consequence was 00:14:26.406 --> 00:14:28.972 that despite all the information, 00:14:28.972 --> 00:14:32.886 the regime couldn't analyze its real problems, 00:14:32.886 --> 00:14:35.791 and therefore it couldn't solve them. 00:14:35.791 --> 00:14:38.275 In the end, the Stasi died 00:14:38.275 --> 00:14:40.278 because of the structures 00:14:40.278 --> 00:14:43.788 that it was charged with protecting. NOTE Paragraph 00:14:43.788 --> 00:14:45.858 The ending of the Stasi 00:14:45.858 --> 00:14:47.905 was something tragic, 00:14:47.905 --> 00:14:49.964 because these officers 00:14:49.964 --> 00:14:53.272 were kept busy during the peaceful revolution 00:14:53.272 --> 00:14:55.387 with only one thing: 00:14:55.387 --> 00:14:57.660 to destroy the documents 00:14:57.660 --> 00:15:01.631 they had produced during decades. 00:15:01.631 --> 00:15:03.409 Fortunately, 00:15:03.409 --> 00:15:06.806 they had been stopped by human rights activists. 00:15:06.806 --> 00:15:09.732 That's why today, we can use the files 00:15:09.732 --> 00:15:11.576 to get a better understanding 00:15:11.576 --> 00:15:14.266 of how a surveillance state functions. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:14.266 --> 00:15:16.133 Thank you. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:16.133 --> 00:15:20.439 (Applause) NOTE Paragraph 00:15:24.518 --> 00:15:26.788 Moderator: Thank you. Thank you very much. 00:15:26.788 --> 00:15:31.513 Thanks. 00:15:31.513 --> 00:15:33.302 So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions 00:15:33.302 --> 00:15:36.025 because I have here "Der Spiegel" from last week, 00:15:36.025 --> 00:15:41.234 "Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA. 00:15:41.234 --> 00:15:43.315 And you just told us about my neighbor, 00:15:43.315 --> 00:15:46.713 the spies and the informant from Eastern Germany. 00:15:46.713 --> 00:15:49.413 So there is a direct link between these two stories 00:15:49.413 --> 00:15:51.161 or there isn't? 00:15:51.161 --> 00:15:53.543 What's your reaction as a historian when you see this? NOTE Paragraph 00:15:53.543 --> 00:15:55.128 Hubertus Knabe: I think there are 00:15:55.128 --> 00:15:56.861 several aspects to mention. 00:15:56.861 --> 00:15:59.877 At first, I think there's a difference 00:15:59.877 --> 00:16:03.965 for why you are collecting this data. 00:16:03.965 --> 00:16:06.283 Are you doing that for protecting your people 00:16:06.283 --> 00:16:08.050 against terrorist attacks, 00:16:08.050 --> 00:16:11.008 or are you doing that for oppressing your people? 00:16:11.008 --> 00:16:12.812 So that makes a fundamental difference. 00:16:12.812 --> 00:16:14.721 But on the other hand side, 00:16:14.721 --> 00:16:19.210 also in a democracy, these instruments can be abused, 00:16:19.210 --> 00:16:21.246 and that is something where we really have 00:16:21.246 --> 00:16:23.191 to be aware to stop that, 00:16:23.191 --> 00:16:25.144 and also the intelligence services 00:16:25.144 --> 00:16:28.895 are respecting the rules we have. 00:16:28.895 --> 00:16:30.565 The third point, probably, 00:16:30.565 --> 00:16:33.543 we really can be happy that we live in a democracy, 00:16:33.543 --> 00:16:37.223 because you can be sure that Russia and China 00:16:37.223 --> 00:16:38.955 are doing the same, 00:16:38.955 --> 00:16:40.701 but nobody speaks about that 00:16:40.701 --> 00:16:42.612 because nobody could do that. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:42.612 --> 00:16:47.576 (Applause) NOTE Paragraph 00:16:49.818 --> 00:16:51.731 Moderator: When the story came out first, 00:16:51.731 --> 00:16:53.896 last July, last year, 00:16:53.896 --> 00:16:56.664 you filed a criminal complaint 00:16:56.664 --> 00:16:59.944 with a German tribunal. Why? 00:16:59.944 --> 00:17:02.667 HK: Yeah, I did so because of the second point I mentioned, 00:17:02.667 --> 00:17:05.884 that I think especially in a democracy, 00:17:05.884 --> 00:17:09.372 the rules are for everybody. 00:17:09.372 --> 00:17:11.386 They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed 00:17:11.386 --> 00:17:15.177 that any institution doesn't respect the rules. 00:17:15.177 --> 00:17:17.135 In the criminal code of Germany, it's written 00:17:17.135 --> 00:17:19.047 that it's not allowed to tap somebody 00:17:19.047 --> 00:17:21.578 without a permission of the judge. 00:17:21.578 --> 00:17:24.899 Fortunately, it's written in the criminal code of Germany, 00:17:24.899 --> 00:17:29.039 so if it's not respected, than I think 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:31.306 an investigation is necessary, 00:17:31.306 --> 00:17:33.155 and it took a very long time that 00:17:33.155 --> 00:17:35.281 the public prosecutor of Germany started this, 00:17:35.281 --> 00:17:38.702 and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel, 00:17:38.702 --> 00:17:41.908 and not in the case of all the other people living in Germany. NOTE Paragraph 00:17:41.908 --> 00:17:44.451 Moderator: That doesn't surprise me because, 00:17:44.451 --> 00:17:47.264 — Yeah? (Applause) — 00:17:47.264 --> 00:17:49.997 because of the story you told. 00:17:49.997 --> 00:17:52.180 Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany, 00:17:52.180 --> 00:17:53.957 and I expected the Germans to react 00:17:53.957 --> 00:17:57.357 much more strongly, immediately. 00:17:57.357 --> 00:17:59.719 And instead, the reaction really came only 00:17:59.719 --> 00:18:02.186 when Chancellor Merkel was revealed 00:18:02.186 --> 00:18:05.581 as being wiretapped. Why so? NOTE Paragraph 00:18:05.581 --> 00:18:07.384 HK: I take it as a good sign, 00:18:07.384 --> 00:18:11.394 because people feel secure in this democracy. 00:18:11.394 --> 00:18:13.838 They aren't afraid that they will be arrested, 00:18:13.838 --> 00:18:16.771 and if you leave this hall after the conference, 00:18:16.771 --> 00:18:19.335 nobody has to be afraid that the secret police 00:18:19.335 --> 00:18:21.773 is standing out and is arresting you. 00:18:21.773 --> 00:18:23.497 So that's a good sign, I think. 00:18:23.497 --> 00:18:26.422 People are not really scared, as they could be. 00:18:26.422 --> 00:18:30.306 But of course, I think, the institutions 00:18:30.306 --> 00:18:33.353 are responsible to stop illegal actions 00:18:33.353 --> 00:18:36.711 in Germany or wherever they happen. NOTE Paragraph 00:18:36.711 --> 00:18:39.474 Moderator: A personal question, and this is the last one. 00:18:39.474 --> 00:18:41.960 There has been a debate in Germany about 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:43.771 granting asylum to Edward Snowden. 00:18:43.771 --> 00:18:46.576 Would you be in favor or against? NOTE Paragraph 00:18:46.576 --> 00:18:48.114 HK: Oh, that's a difficult question, 00:18:48.114 --> 00:18:49.690 but if you ask me, 00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:51.545 and if I answer honestly, 00:18:51.545 --> 00:18:53.301 I would give him the asylum, 00:18:53.301 --> 00:18:55.260 because I think it was really brave what he did, 00:18:55.260 --> 00:18:57.532 and he destroyed his whole life 00:18:57.532 --> 00:18:59.581 and his family and everything. 00:18:59.581 --> 00:19:02.640 So I think, for these people, we should do something, 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:06.724 and especially if you see the German history, 00:19:06.724 --> 00:19:09.241 where so many people had to escape 00:19:09.241 --> 00:19:11.427 and they asked for asylum in other countries 00:19:11.427 --> 00:19:13.024 and they didn't get it, 00:19:13.024 --> 00:19:15.567 so it would be a good sign to give him asylum. NOTE Paragraph 00:19:15.567 --> 00:19:17.378 (Applause) NOTE Paragraph 00:19:17.378 --> 00:19:23.680 Moderator: Hubertus, thank you very much.