0:00:00.992,0:00:02.740 This year, Germany is celebrating 0:00:02.740,0:00:05.556 the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution 0:00:05.556,0:00:07.412 in East Germany. 0:00:07.412,0:00:11.858 In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away, 0:00:11.858,0:00:15.000 the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later, 0:00:15.000,0:00:19.485 the German Democratic Republic, the GDR, 0:00:19.485,0:00:21.454 and the East, was unified 0:00:21.454,0:00:24.244 with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West 0:00:24.244,0:00:27.597 to found today's Germany. 0:00:27.597,0:00:30.511 Among many other things, Germany inherited 0:00:30.511,0:00:35.664 the archives of the East German secret police, 0:00:35.664,0:00:38.420 known as the Stasi. 0:00:38.420,0:00:40.960 Only two years after its dissolution, 0:00:40.960,0:00:45.302 its documents were opened to the public, 0:00:45.302,0:00:47.677 and historians such as me started 0:00:47.677,0:00:49.105 to study these documents 0:00:49.105,0:00:53.797 to learn all about how the GDR surveillance state 0:00:53.797,0:00:55.507 functioned. 0:00:55.507,0:00:58.533 Perhaps you have watched the movie 0:00:58.533,0:01:00.681 "The Lives Of Others." 0:01:00.681,0:01:05.642 This movie made the Stasi known worldwide, 0:01:05.642,0:01:07.892 and as we live in an age where words 0:01:07.892,0:01:11.369 such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping" 0:01:11.369,0:01:13.979 are on the front pages of newspapers, 0:01:13.979,0:01:16.802 I would like to speak about how the Stasi 0:01:16.802,0:01:19.581 really worked. 0:01:19.581,0:01:22.012 At the beginning, let's have a short look 0:01:22.012,0:01:24.228 at the history of the Stasi, 0:01:24.228,0:01:26.219 because it's really important for understanding 0:01:26.219,0:01:29.706 its self-conception. 0:01:29.706,0:01:32.418 Its origins are located in Russia. 0:01:32.418,0:01:34.736 In 1917, the Russian Communists founded 0:01:34.736,0:01:37.031 the Emergency Commission for Combating 0:01:37.031,0:01:39.731 Counter-Revolution and Sabotage, 0:01:39.731,0:01:42.049 shortly Cheka. 0:01:42.049,0:01:45.390 It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky. 0:01:45.390,0:01:48.203 The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists 0:01:48.203,0:01:51.960 to establish their regime by terrorizing the population 0:01:51.960,0:01:54.885 and executing the enemies. 0:01:54.885,0:02:00.634 It evolved later into the well-known KGB. 0:02:00.634,0:02:03.750 The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers. 0:02:03.750,0:02:06.822 They called themselves Chekists, 0:02:06.822,0:02:10.006 and even the emblem was very similar, 0:02:10.006,0:02:12.661 as you can see here. 0:02:12.661,0:02:16.227 In fact, the secret police of Russia 0:02:16.227,0:02:19.758 was the creator and instructor of the Stasi. 0:02:19.758,0:02:23.369 When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945, 0:02:23.369,0:02:25.867 it immediately expanded there, 0:02:25.867,0:02:29.118 and soon it started to train the German Communists 0:02:29.118,0:02:32.696 to build up their own secret police. 0:02:32.696,0:02:36.206 By the way, in this hall where we are now, 0:02:36.206,0:02:41.786 the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946. 0:02:41.786,0:02:45.082 Five years later, the Stasi was established, 0:02:45.082,0:02:47.929 and step by step, the dirty job of oppression 0:02:47.929,0:02:50.561 was handed over to it. 0:02:50.561,0:02:52.542 For instance, the central jail 0:02:52.542,0:02:54.206 for political prisoners, 0:02:54.206,0:02:56.794 which was established by the Russians, 0:02:56.794,0:02:58.864 was taken over by the Stasi 0:02:58.864,0:03:02.318 and used until the end of the Communism. 0:03:02.318,0:03:04.006 You see it here. 0:03:04.006,0:03:06.875 At the beginning, every important step 0:03:06.875,0:03:11.150 took place under the attendance of the Russians. 0:03:11.150,0:03:14.401 But the Germans are known to be very effective, 0:03:14.401,0:03:17.709 so the Stasi grew very quickly, 0:03:17.709,0:03:21.207 and already in 1953, it had more employees 0:03:21.207,0:03:23.145 than the Gestapo had, 0:03:23.145,0:03:25.865 the secret police of Nazi Germany. 0:03:25.865,0:03:28.363 The number doubled in each decade. 0:03:28.363,0:03:31.558 In 1989, more than 90,000 employees 0:03:31.558,0:03:33.663 worked for the Stasi. 0:03:33.663,0:03:35.597 This meant that one employee 0:03:35.597,0:03:39.006 was responsible for 180 inhabitants, 0:03:39.006,0:03:42.989 which was really unique in the world. 0:03:42.989,0:03:45.655 At the top of this tremendous apparatus, 0:03:45.655,0:03:49.469 there was one man, Erich Mielke. 0:03:49.469,0:03:52.067 He ruled the Ministry of State Security 0:03:52.067,0:03:54.239 for more than 30 years. 0:03:54.239,0:03:56.400 He was a scrupulous functionary 0:03:56.400,0:03:59.122 — In his past, he killed two policemen 0:03:59.122,0:04:01.068 not far away from here — 0:04:01.068,0:04:05.647 who in fact personalized the Stasi. 0:04:05.647,0:04:10.012 But what was so exceptional about the Stasi? 0:04:10.012,0:04:12.780 Foremost, it was its enormous power, 0:04:12.780,0:04:16.009 because it united different functions 0:04:16.009,0:04:18.945 in one organization. 0:04:18.945,0:04:20.846 First of all, the Stasi 0:04:20.846,0:04:23.571 was an intelligence service. 0:04:23.571,0:04:26.073 It used all the imaginable instruments 0:04:26.073,0:04:28.333 for getting information secretly, 0:04:28.333,0:04:31.934 such as informers, or tapping phones, 0:04:31.934,0:04:35.152 as you can see it on the picture here. 0:04:35.152,0:04:37.806 And it was not only active in East Germany, 0:04:37.806,0:04:40.653 but all over the world. 0:04:40.653,0:04:44.826 Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police. 0:04:44.826,0:04:47.110 It could stop people on the street 0:04:47.110,0:04:51.318 and arrest them in its own prisons. 0:04:51.318,0:04:53.031 Thirdly, the Stasi worked 0:04:53.031,0:04:55.635 as a kind of public prosecutor. 0:04:55.635,0:04:58.745 It had the right to open preliminary investigations 0:04:58.745,0:05:02.672 and to interrogate people officially. 0:05:02.672,0:05:04.483 Last but not least, 0:05:04.483,0:05:08.308 the Stasi had its own armed forces. 0:05:08.308,0:05:10.502 More than 11,000 soldiers were serving 0:05:10.502,0:05:13.922 in its so-called Guards Regiment. 0:05:13.922,0:05:18.468 It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings. 0:05:18.468,0:05:21.135 Due to this concentration of power, 0:05:21.135,0:05:26.093 the Stasi was called a state in the state. 0:05:26.093,0:05:28.409 But let's look more and more details 0:05:28.409,0:05:30.816 at the tools of the Stasi. 0:05:30.816,0:05:32.459 Please keep in mind that at that time 0:05:32.459,0:05:36.284 the web and smartphones were not yet invented. 0:05:36.284,0:05:39.525 Of course, the Stasi used all kinds 0:05:39.525,0:05:42.888 of technical instruments to survey people. 0:05:42.888,0:05:44.711 Telephones were wiretapped, 0:05:44.711,0:05:49.077 including the phone of the[br]German chancellor in the West, 0:05:49.077,0:05:52.272 and often also the apartments. 0:05:52.272,0:05:55.355 Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened 0:05:55.355,0:05:58.841 by these machines. 0:05:58.841,0:06:02.239 The Stasi also shadowed[br]tens of thousands of people 0:06:02.239,0:06:05.581 using specially trained agents and secret cameras 0:06:05.581,0:06:09.326 to document every step one took. 0:06:09.326,0:06:11.994 In this picture, you can see me 0:06:11.994,0:06:15.514 as a young man just in front of this building 0:06:15.514,0:06:19.148 where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent. 0:06:19.148,0:06:23.424 The Stasi even collected the smell of people. 0:06:23.424,0:06:26.563 It stored samples of it in closed jars 0:06:26.563,0:06:31.262 which were found after the peaceful revolution. 0:06:31.262,0:06:35.258 For all these tasks, highly specialized departments 0:06:35.258,0:06:37.626 were responsible. 0:06:37.626,0:06:39.806 The one which was tapping phone calls 0:06:39.806,0:06:41.696 was completely separated 0:06:41.696,0:06:44.442 from the one which controlled the letters, 0:06:44.442,0:06:46.072 for good reasons, 0:06:46.072,0:06:50.217 because if one agent had quit the Stasi, 0:06:50.217,0:06:52.401 his knowledge was very small. 0:06:52.401,0:06:56.539 Contrast that with Snowden, for example. 0:06:56.539,0:06:59.296 But the vertical specialization was also important 0:06:59.296,0:07:01.501 to prevent all kinds of empathy 0:07:01.501,0:07:04.786 with the object of observation. 0:07:04.786,0:07:06.800 The agent who shadowed me 0:07:06.800,0:07:08.657 didn't know who I was 0:07:08.657,0:07:10.782 or why I was surveyed. 0:07:10.782,0:07:12.346 In fact, I smuggled forbidden books 0:07:12.346,0:07:15.418 from West to East Germany. 0:07:15.418,0:07:18.220 But what was even more typical for the Stasi 0:07:18.220,0:07:21.384 was the use of human intelligence, 0:07:21.384,0:07:25.577 people who reported secretly to the Stasi. 0:07:25.577,0:07:27.669 For the Minister of State Security, 0:07:27.669,0:07:30.291 these so-called unofficial employees 0:07:30.291,0:07:33.486 were the most important tools. 0:07:33.486,0:07:38.509 From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people 0:07:38.509,0:07:41.536 collaborated constantly with the Stasi, 0:07:41.536,0:07:46.362 more than one percent of the population. 0:07:46.362,0:07:48.950 And in a way, the minister was right, 0:07:48.950,0:07:50.891 because technical instruments 0:07:50.891,0:07:54.463 can only register what people are doing, 0:07:54.463,0:07:57.771 but agents and spies can also report 0:07:57.771,0:07:59.654 what people are planning to do 0:07:59.654,0:08:02.264 and what they are thinking. 0:08:02.264,0:08:06.955 Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants. 0:08:06.955,0:08:09.459 The system of how to get them 0:08:09.459,0:08:12.671 and how to educate them, as it was called, 0:08:12.671,0:08:15.491 was very sophisticated. 0:08:15.491,0:08:18.338 The Stasi had its own university, 0:08:18.338,0:08:19.968 not far away from here, 0:08:19.968,0:08:21.655 where the methods were explored 0:08:21.655,0:08:24.344 and taught to the officers. 0:08:24.344,0:08:28.215 This guideline gave a detailed description 0:08:28.215,0:08:30.578 of every step you have to take 0:08:30.578,0:08:33.086 if you want to convince human beings 0:08:33.086,0:08:37.047 to betray their fellow citizens. 0:08:37.047,0:08:40.264 Sometimes, it's said that informants were pressured 0:08:40.264,0:08:42.064 to becoming one, 0:08:42.064,0:08:44.314 but that's mostly not true, 0:08:44.314,0:08:48.455 because a forced informant is a bad informant. 0:08:48.455,0:08:51.312 Only someone who wants to give[br]you the information you need 0:08:51.312,0:08:54.643 is an effective whistleblower. 0:08:54.643,0:08:59.066 The main reasons why people[br]cooperated with the Stasi 0:08:59.066,0:09:04.093 were political conviction and material benefits. 0:09:04.093,0:09:07.770 The officers also tried to create a personal bond 0:09:07.770,0:09:11.428 between themselves and the informant, 0:09:11.428,0:09:16.074 and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows 0:09:16.074,0:09:18.932 that it's not so difficult to win someone 0:09:18.932,0:09:23.195 in order to betray others. 0:09:23.195,0:09:26.586 Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany 0:09:26.586,0:09:28.421 collaborated with the Stasi, 0:09:28.421,0:09:32.166 as for instance Ibrahim Böhme. 0:09:32.166,0:09:34.956 In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution 0:09:34.956,0:09:39.480 and he nearly became the first freely[br]elected Prime Minister of the GDR 0:09:39.480,0:09:44.575 until it came out that he was an informant. 0:09:44.575,0:09:48.614 The net of spies was really broad. 0:09:48.614,0:09:50.350 In nearly every institution, 0:09:50.350,0:09:53.355 even in the churches or in West Germany, 0:09:53.355,0:09:55.763 there were many of them. 0:09:55.763,0:09:59.352 I remember telling a leading Stasi officer, 0:09:59.352,0:10:02.671 "If you had sent an informant to me, 0:10:02.671,0:10:05.461 I would surely have recognized him." 0:10:05.461,0:10:07.070 His answer was, 0:10:07.070,0:10:08.623 "We didn't send anyone. 0:10:08.623,0:10:11.705 We took those who were around you." 0:10:11.705,0:10:14.056 And in fact, two of my best friends 0:10:14.056,0:10:18.691 reported about me to the Stasi. 0:10:18.691,0:10:21.470 Not only in my case, informers were very close. 0:10:21.470,0:10:24.823 For example, Vera Lengsfeld,[br]another leading dissident, 0:10:24.823,0:10:28.906 in her case it was her husband who spied on her. 0:10:28.906,0:10:32.549 The famous writer was betrayed by his brother. 0:10:32.549,0:10:36.251 This reminds of the novel "1984" by George Orwell, 0:10:36.251,0:10:39.300 where the only apparently trustable person 0:10:39.300,0:10:42.393 was an informer. 0:10:42.393,0:10:46.068 But why did the Stasi collect all this information 0:10:46.068,0:10:47.991 in its archives? 0:10:47.991,0:10:52.015 The main purpose was to control the society. 0:10:52.015,0:10:54.303 In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister 0:10:54.303,0:10:57.465 gave the order to find out who is who, 0:10:57.465,0:11:00.339 what meant who thinks what. 0:11:00.339,0:11:02.094 He didn't want to wait until somebody 0:11:02.094,0:11:04.670 tried to act against the regime. 0:11:04.670,0:11:06.280 He wanted to know in advance 0:11:06.280,0:11:09.535 what people were thinking and planning. 0:11:09.535,0:11:12.197 The East Germans knew, of course, 0:11:12.197,0:11:15.627 that they were surrounded by informers, 0:11:15.627,0:11:19.140 and the totalitarian regime that creates mistrust 0:11:19.140,0:11:22.584 and the state of widespread fear, 0:11:22.584,0:11:25.910 the most important tools to oppress people 0:11:25.910,0:11:28.309 in any dictatorship. 0:11:28.309,0:11:30.512 That's why not many East Germans tried 0:11:30.512,0:11:35.506 to fight against the Communist regime. 0:11:35.506,0:11:39.378 If yes, the Stasi often used a method 0:11:39.378,0:11:42.045 which was really diabolic. 0:11:42.045,0:11:44.576 It was called "Zersetzung," 0:11:44.576,0:11:48.377 and it's described in another guideline. 0:11:48.377,0:11:50.707 The word is difficult to translate because it means 0:11:50.707,0:11:54.605 originally "biodegradation." 0:11:54.605,0:11:58.199 But actually, it's a quite accurate description. 0:11:58.199,0:12:01.518 The goal was to destroy secretly 0:12:01.518,0:12:04.578 the self-confidence of people, 0:12:04.578,0:12:07.701 for example by damaging their reputation, 0:12:07.701,0:12:10.990 by organizing failures in their work, 0:12:10.990,0:12:16.019 and by destroying their personal relationships. 0:12:16.019,0:12:21.375 Considering this, East Germany[br]was a very modern dictatorship. 0:12:21.375,0:12:25.596 The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident. 0:12:25.596,0:12:28.777 It preferred to paralyze them, 0:12:28.777,0:12:30.960 and it could do so because 0:12:30.960,0:12:34.099 it had access to so much personal information 0:12:34.099,0:12:38.410 and to so many institutions. 0:12:38.410,0:12:40.512 Detaining someone was used only 0:12:40.512,0:12:43.392 as a last resort. 0:12:43.392,0:12:46.607 For this, the Stasi owned 17 remote prisons, 0:12:46.607,0:12:49.214 one in every district. 0:12:49.214,0:12:51.538 Here, the Stasi also developed 0:12:51.538,0:12:56.290 quite modern methods of detention. 0:12:56.290,0:12:58.143 Normally, the interrogation officer 0:12:58.143,0:13:01.226 didn't torture the prisoner. 0:13:01.226,0:13:03.802 Instead, he used a sophisticated system 0:13:03.802,0:13:06.097 of psychological pressure 0:13:06.097,0:13:10.204 in which strict isolation was central. 0:13:10.204,0:13:12.408 Nearly no prisoner resisted 0:13:12.408,0:13:15.877 without giving a testimony. 0:13:15.877,0:13:17.719 If you have the occasion, 0:13:17.719,0:13:21.039 do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin 0:13:21.039,0:13:24.649 and attend a guided tour[br]with a former political prisoner 0:13:24.649,0:13:27.565 who will explain to you how this worked. 0:13:27.565,0:13:30.904 One more question needs to be answered: 0:13:30.904,0:13:33.256 if the Stasi was so well-organized, 0:13:33.256,0:13:37.879 why did the Communist regime collapse? 0:13:37.879,0:13:41.570 First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany 0:13:41.570,0:13:43.831 was uncertain what to do against 0:13:43.831,0:13:46.768 the growing protest of people. 0:13:46.768,0:13:49.119 It was especially confused 0:13:49.119,0:13:52.078 because, in the mother country of socialism, 0:13:52.078,0:13:53.810 the Soviet Union, 0:13:53.810,0:13:57.253 a more liberal policy took place. 0:13:57.253,0:13:59.210 In addition, the regime was dependent 0:13:59.210,0:14:02.602 on the loans from the West. 0:14:02.602,0:14:05.550 Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising 0:14:05.550,0:14:08.687 was given to the Stasi. 0:14:08.687,0:14:12.073 Secondly, in the Communist ideology, 0:14:12.073,0:14:14.863 there's no place for criticism. 0:14:14.863,0:14:16.820 Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief 0:14:16.820,0:14:19.894 that socialism is a perfect system, 0:14:19.894,0:14:24.335 and the Stasi had to conform that, of course. 0:14:24.335,0:14:26.406 The consequence was 0:14:26.406,0:14:28.972 that despite all the information, 0:14:28.972,0:14:32.886 the regime couldn't analyze its real problems, 0:14:32.886,0:14:35.791 and therefore it couldn't solve them. 0:14:35.791,0:14:38.275 In the end, the Stasi died 0:14:38.275,0:14:40.278 because of the structures 0:14:40.278,0:14:43.788 that it was charged with protecting. 0:14:43.788,0:14:45.858 The ending of the Stasi 0:14:45.858,0:14:47.905 was something tragic, 0:14:47.905,0:14:49.964 because these officers 0:14:49.964,0:14:53.272 were kept busy during the peaceful revolution 0:14:53.272,0:14:55.387 with only one thing: 0:14:55.387,0:14:57.660 to destroy the documents 0:14:57.660,0:15:01.631 they had produced during decades. 0:15:01.631,0:15:03.409 Fortunately, 0:15:03.409,0:15:06.806 they had been stopped by human rights activists. 0:15:06.806,0:15:09.732 That's why today, we can use the files 0:15:09.732,0:15:11.576 to get a better understanding 0:15:11.576,0:15:14.266 of how a surveillance state functions. 0:15:14.266,0:15:16.133 Thank you. 0:15:16.133,0:15:20.439 (Applause) 0:15:24.518,0:15:26.788 Moderator: Thank you. Thank you very much. 0:15:26.788,0:15:31.513 Thanks. 0:15:31.513,0:15:33.302 So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions 0:15:33.302,0:15:36.025 because I have here "Der Spiegel" from last week, 0:15:36.025,0:15:41.234 "Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA. 0:15:41.234,0:15:43.315 And you just told us about my neighbor, 0:15:43.315,0:15:46.713 the spies and the informant from Eastern Germany. 0:15:46.713,0:15:49.413 So there is a direct link between these two stories 0:15:49.413,0:15:51.161 or there isn't? 0:15:51.161,0:15:53.543 What's your reaction as a[br]historian when you see this? 0:15:53.543,0:15:55.128 Hubertus Knabe: I think there are 0:15:55.128,0:15:56.861 several aspects to mention. 0:15:56.861,0:15:59.877 At first, I think there's a difference 0:15:59.877,0:16:03.965 for why you are collecting this data. 0:16:03.965,0:16:06.283 Are you doing that for protecting your people 0:16:06.283,0:16:08.050 against terrorist attacks, 0:16:08.050,0:16:11.008 or are you doing that for oppressing your people? 0:16:11.008,0:16:12.812 So that makes a fundamental difference. 0:16:12.812,0:16:14.721 But on the other hand side, 0:16:14.721,0:16:19.210 also in a democracy, these[br]instruments can be abused, 0:16:19.210,0:16:21.246 and that is something where we really have 0:16:21.246,0:16:23.191 to be aware to stop that, 0:16:23.191,0:16:25.144 and also the intelligence services 0:16:25.144,0:16:28.895 are respecting the rules we have. 0:16:28.895,0:16:30.565 The third point, probably, 0:16:30.565,0:16:33.543 we really can be happy that we live in a democracy, 0:16:33.543,0:16:37.223 because you can be sure that Russia and China 0:16:37.223,0:16:38.955 are doing the same, 0:16:38.955,0:16:40.701 but nobody speaks about that 0:16:40.701,0:16:42.612 because nobody could do that. 0:16:42.612,0:16:47.576 (Applause) 0:16:49.818,0:16:51.731 Moderator: When the story came out first, 0:16:51.731,0:16:53.896 last July, last year, 0:16:53.896,0:16:56.664 you filed a criminal complaint 0:16:56.664,0:16:59.944 with a German tribunal. Why? 0:16:59.944,0:17:02.667 HK: Yeah, I did so because of[br]the second point I mentioned, 0:17:02.667,0:17:05.884 that I think especially in a democracy, 0:17:05.884,0:17:09.372 the rules are for everybody. 0:17:09.372,0:17:11.386 They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed 0:17:11.386,0:17:15.177 that any institution doesn't respect the rules. 0:17:15.177,0:17:17.135 In the criminal code of Germany, it's written 0:17:17.135,0:17:19.047 that it's not allowed to tap somebody 0:17:19.047,0:17:21.578 without a permission of the judge. 0:17:21.578,0:17:24.899 Fortunately, it's written in[br]the criminal code of Germany, 0:17:24.899,0:17:29.039 so if it's not respected, than I think 0:17:29.039,0:17:31.306 an investigation is necessary, 0:17:31.306,0:17:33.155 and it took a very long time that 0:17:33.155,0:17:35.281 the public prosecutor of Germany started this, 0:17:35.281,0:17:38.702 and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel, 0:17:38.702,0:17:41.908 and not in the case of all the[br]other people living in Germany. 0:17:41.908,0:17:44.451 Moderator: That doesn't surprise me because, 0:17:44.451,0:17:47.264 — Yeah? (Applause) — 0:17:47.264,0:17:49.997 because of the story you told. 0:17:49.997,0:17:52.180 Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany, 0:17:52.180,0:17:53.957 and I expected the Germans to react 0:17:53.957,0:17:57.357 much more strongly, immediately. 0:17:57.357,0:17:59.719 And instead, the reaction really came only 0:17:59.719,0:18:02.186 when Chancellor Merkel was revealed 0:18:02.186,0:18:05.581 as being wiretapped. Why so? 0:18:05.581,0:18:07.384 HK: I take it as a good sign, 0:18:07.384,0:18:11.394 because people feel secure in this democracy. 0:18:11.394,0:18:13.838 They aren't afraid that they will be arrested, 0:18:13.838,0:18:16.771 and if you leave this hall after the conference, 0:18:16.771,0:18:19.335 nobody has to be afraid that the secret police 0:18:19.335,0:18:21.773 is standing out and is arresting you. 0:18:21.773,0:18:23.497 So that's a good sign, I think. 0:18:23.497,0:18:26.422 People are not really scared, as they could be. 0:18:26.422,0:18:30.306 But of course, I think, the institutions 0:18:30.306,0:18:33.353 are responsible to stop illegal actions 0:18:33.353,0:18:36.711 in Germany or wherever they happen. 0:18:36.711,0:18:39.474 Moderator: A personal question,[br]and this is the last one. 0:18:39.474,0:18:41.960 There has been a debate in Germany about 0:18:41.960,0:18:43.771 granting asylum to Edward Snowden. 0:18:43.771,0:18:46.576 Would you be in favor or against? 0:18:46.576,0:18:48.114 HK: Oh, that's a difficult question, 0:18:48.114,0:18:49.690 but if you ask me, 0:18:49.690,0:18:51.545 and if I answer honestly, 0:18:51.545,0:18:53.301 I would give him the asylum, 0:18:53.301,0:18:55.260 because I think it was really brave what he did, 0:18:55.260,0:18:57.532 and he destroyed his whole life 0:18:57.532,0:18:59.581 and his family and everything. 0:18:59.581,0:19:02.640 So I think, for these people,[br]we should do something, 0:19:02.640,0:19:06.724 and especially if you see the German history, 0:19:06.724,0:19:09.241 where so many people had to escape 0:19:09.241,0:19:11.427 and they asked for asylum in other countries 0:19:11.427,0:19:13.024 and they didn't get it, 0:19:13.024,0:19:15.567 so it would be a good sign to give him asylum. 0:19:15.567,0:19:17.378 (Applause) 0:19:17.378,0:19:23.680 Moderator: Hubertus, thank you very much.