WEBVTT 00:00:16.840 --> 00:00:18.050 NOEL RAPPIN: Hey everybody. 00:00:18.050 --> 00:00:18.940 I think we'll get started. 00:00:18.940 --> 00:00:20.200 We've got a lot of people on here who 00:00:20.200 --> 00:00:22.260 are all gonna wanna talk and we don't have 00:00:22.260 --> 00:00:25.610 that much time. So, I'm gonna quickly introduce, 00:00:25.610 --> 00:00:27.110 this is, we're doing a panel here on teaching 00:00:27.110 --> 00:00:29.900 the next great developers. I have a panel of 00:00:29.900 --> 00:00:32.009 experts here. We'll let them briefly introduce 00:00:32.009 --> 00:00:34.360 themselves, and then we will get on with it. 00:00:34.360 --> 00:00:37.900 So, I'm Noel Rappin. I'm a Table XI senior 00:00:37.900 --> 00:00:40.860 developer, and to some extent I'll be representing traditional 00:00:40.860 --> 00:00:43.080 CS education, if that ever comes up at any 00:00:43.080 --> 00:00:46.480 point over the next forty minutes, which I'm sure 00:00:46.480 --> 00:00:50.190 nobody would ever bash traditional CS education in, in 00:00:50.190 --> 00:00:55.350 this forum. So, OK. First up, we got Jeff. 00:00:55.350 --> 00:00:56.400 We also only have two microphones so you guys 00:00:56.410 --> 00:00:58.980 are gonna pass them around. 00:00:58.980 --> 00:01:00.800 JEFF CASIMIR: Hi. My name is Jeff Casimir. I 00:01:00.800 --> 00:01:03.680 run a company called JumpstartLab, and most recently started 00:01:03.680 --> 00:01:06.610 up a training program called Turing, Turing School of 00:01:06.610 --> 00:01:07.380 Software and Design. 00:01:07.380 --> 00:01:09.680 N.R.: I put 'labs' up there. I got it 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:10.900 wrong. 00:01:10.900 --> 00:01:11.980 J.C.: It's all right. I'll just call it Table 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:12.800 X. 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:16.300 BREE THOMAS: Hi. I'm Bree Thomas, and I'm a 00:01:16.310 --> 00:01:19.899 developer with a company named, called iTriage. And a 00:01:19.899 --> 00:01:23.899 recent grad of this guy's school. 00:01:24.080 --> 00:01:25.940 JEN MEYERS: Hi. My name is Jen Meyers, and 00:01:25.950 --> 00:01:27.789 I am part of the team at Dev BootCamp 00:01:27.789 --> 00:01:29.369 here in Chicago. 00:01:30.220 --> 00:01:31.780 N.R.: Jen is filling in at the last minute 00:01:31.789 --> 00:01:33.649 for Dave Hoover, who couldn't make it due to 00:01:33.649 --> 00:01:35.209 a family emergency. 00:01:36.940 --> 00:01:39.380 LIZ ABENANTE: I'm Liz Abenante. I am a developer 00:01:39.390 --> 00:01:42.509 at Instructure and I also co-lead the Girl Develop 00:01:42.509 --> 00:01:45.030 It chapter here in Chicago with this gal. 00:01:46.100 --> 00:01:49.100 KATHRIN EXLINE: Hi, my name is. Is. Just kidding. 00:01:49.110 --> 00:01:52.780 Is it ready? My name is Katie Exline. You 00:01:52.780 --> 00:01:57.509 can call me Katie. I am the co-leader of 00:01:57.509 --> 00:02:00.580 Girl Develop It, Chicago. Started in Girl Develop It 00:02:00.580 --> 00:02:03.580 with Girl Develop It, Columbus with that girl. And 00:02:03.580 --> 00:02:06.770 I'm currently a software engineer at a company called 00:02:06.770 --> 00:02:07.910 Fooda. 600 West. 00:02:08.880 --> 00:02:10.820 BEN ORENSTEIN: Hi. I'm Ben. I work at ThoughtBot 00:02:10.830 --> 00:02:13.420 in Boston. I run our program for training developers 00:02:13.420 --> 00:02:15.950 there called Learn. And I write code and talk 00:02:15.950 --> 00:02:17.750 to people and do things like this. 00:02:17.750 --> 00:02:21.410 N.R.: So, I'm gonna. So, I want to start 00:02:21.410 --> 00:02:23.650 this off by, so, we have a couple of 00:02:23.650 --> 00:02:27.319 different kinds of programs here represented. We have two 00:02:27.319 --> 00:02:29.760 different boot camps that are sim- somewhat similar in 00:02:29.760 --> 00:02:31.579 structure, but different in length. We have the Girl 00:02:31.579 --> 00:02:35.019 Develop It, which is more shorter interventions aimed at 00:02:35.019 --> 00:02:37.989 bringing novices into the, into the field, and we 00:02:37.989 --> 00:02:42.730 have online, online inter- somewhat more in-depth online interventions. 00:02:42.730 --> 00:02:45.170 And, I guess, maybe, what I want to start 00:02:45.170 --> 00:02:49.069 with is, what is, what do you think is 00:02:49.069 --> 00:02:53.239 the most important part that you, in your program, 00:02:53.239 --> 00:02:55.349 bring to teaching a novice developer, and how do 00:02:55.349 --> 00:02:59.709 you think that that fits towards bringing in the 00:02:59.709 --> 00:03:04.920 next generation of developers? To start with. Anybody can 00:03:04.920 --> 00:03:05.239 feel free. Jen's got the mic. 00:03:05.239 --> 00:03:05.340 J.M.: I've got the mic. OK. I'll go for 00:03:05.340 --> 00:03:05.760 that. 00:03:05.760 --> 00:03:08.549 N.R.: So what's the most, what's the most important 00:03:08.549 --> 00:03:10.760 thing at Dev BootCamp. If, if you were to 00:03:10.760 --> 00:03:13.530 say that a Dev BootCamp boot came out of 00:03:13.530 --> 00:03:17.159 there knowing one or two things, like what, what's 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:19.120 the most important thing that you try to impart? 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:21.060 J.M.: Honestly, I think the most important thing that 00:03:21.060 --> 00:03:23.819 we try to foster is just being able to 00:03:23.819 --> 00:03:27.629 love and learning how to learn. And really being 00:03:27.629 --> 00:03:30.879 able to carry themselves on and our, our goal 00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:34.930 is to really produce people who know enough about 00:03:34.930 --> 00:03:36.599 Ruby on Rails to get a job where they 00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:38.719 can continue to learn, and that they have the 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:41.920 tools and the, the muscles built up, that they 00:03:41.920 --> 00:03:43.769 know how to keep learning on their own, and 00:03:43.769 --> 00:03:45.859 keep exploring and finding out new things. 00:03:45.859 --> 00:03:47.469 So, it's a little bit meta, but I really 00:03:47.469 --> 00:03:49.189 do feel like that's one of the things that 00:03:49.189 --> 00:03:50.689 is our main goal, to make sure that people 00:03:50.689 --> 00:03:52.510 can continue learning for the rest of their careers 00:03:52.510 --> 00:03:53.680 and lives. 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:58.780 J.C.: Kind of a similar vein, I would say 00:03:58.780 --> 00:04:02.530 the most important outcome for students is understanding really 00:04:02.530 --> 00:04:06.310 how to take difficult technical problems and turn them 00:04:06.310 --> 00:04:09.529 into sets of small, still difficult but more manageable 00:04:09.529 --> 00:04:12.510 technical problems. And we happen to do that with 00:04:12.510 --> 00:04:16.310 Ruby on Rails, but I'm, it's really validating when 00:04:16.310 --> 00:04:18.290 we see students go into jobs where they do 00:04:18.290 --> 00:04:20.750 JavaScript full time, or iOS full time, and they're 00:04:20.750 --> 00:04:23.710 still able to apply all those same patterns to 00:04:23.710 --> 00:04:26.360 a different language and framework and so forth. 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:28.170 L.A.: And Girl Develop It comes from a slightly 00:04:28.170 --> 00:04:31.070 different perspective, because we work with complete novices in 00:04:31.070 --> 00:04:32.949 a wide range of classes, and we're just now 00:04:32.949 --> 00:04:35.349 starting to get into programming here in Chicago with 00:04:35.349 --> 00:04:37.970 our gals. But, I think the most important thing 00:04:37.970 --> 00:04:40.889 that I've found teaching these students is how to 00:04:40.889 --> 00:04:42.960 ask questions and where to ask them. Who to 00:04:42.960 --> 00:04:45.639 ask, what kind of responses are good responses, and 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:47.380 what kind of responses are terrible and you should 00:04:47.380 --> 00:04:50.620 ignore them because they're from terrible people. 00:04:50.620 --> 00:04:55.440 B.O.: So, this is actually something that I think 00:04:55.440 --> 00:04:58.110 that it's important for all levels that I'm working 00:04:58.110 --> 00:05:01.289 on myself, honestly, is a willingness to admit you 00:05:01.289 --> 00:05:04.030 don't understand something. There's, I, there's this phenomenon I've 00:05:04.030 --> 00:05:06.340 seen in developing, in particular, where, because it's an 00:05:06.340 --> 00:05:09.960 intellectual-based activity, we have this really strong impulse to 00:05:09.960 --> 00:05:11.669 always act like we know what's going on and 00:05:11.669 --> 00:05:13.400 we understand what people are saying. 00:05:13.400 --> 00:05:15.639 And I've tried really hard to develop in myself 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:17.120 the ability to be like, I did not follow 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:19.210 that. I don't understand what's going on. And I 00:05:19.210 --> 00:05:21.539 think more of that is really good for the 00:05:21.539 --> 00:05:23.979 world. I think, I've seen people, I've seen myself 00:05:23.979 --> 00:05:25.669 do it, too, where you sort of fake it. 00:05:25.669 --> 00:05:27.220 Where it's like, oh, are you familiar with this? 00:05:27.220 --> 00:05:29.150 Yeah. I mean, I know I should be, so 00:05:29.150 --> 00:05:33.090 therefore I'm gonna say yes. And that definitely, that 00:05:33.090 --> 00:05:34.680 hurts you. Like, you cheat yourself out of that 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:37.180 immediate learning, and you cheat, you know, your, your 00:05:37.180 --> 00:05:38.610 colleague or the person you're talking to out of 00:05:38.610 --> 00:05:39.789 being able to trust you when they find out 00:05:39.789 --> 00:05:41.580 you weren't telling the truth. And there's just all 00:05:41.580 --> 00:05:43.729 this negative impacts from that. 00:05:43.729 --> 00:05:48.289 N.R.: So, actually. Let's. I have a, I have 00:05:48.289 --> 00:05:49.900 a sort of jumble. Do you guys have questions 00:05:49.900 --> 00:05:51.860 in the audience? Like, I have a couple of 00:05:51.860 --> 00:05:54.220 prepared questions that are gonna be kind of vague, 00:05:54.220 --> 00:05:56.030 but if you guys have questions in the audience, 00:05:56.030 --> 00:06:00.550 yes, no, maybe? Then we, this would be, this 00:06:00.550 --> 00:06:02.720 would be, I think, more fruitful if you guys 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:05.479 com- if we come from there. 00:06:05.479 --> 00:06:10.050 AUDIENCE: I think everyone thinks they're terrible at programming 00:06:10.050 --> 00:06:11.669 when they start, so how do you help people 00:06:11.669 --> 00:06:12.639 N.R.: So the question is, how do you help 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:15.050 people build confidence, given that everybody thinks they're terrible 00:06:15.050 --> 00:06:17.680 when they start, or possibly for several years after 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:19.490 they've started? 00:06:19.490 --> 00:06:23.220 B.O.: I love that question. Did, you repeated it, 00:06:23.220 --> 00:06:23.669 right? Yeah. 00:06:23.669 --> 00:06:24.110 N.R.: Yes. 00:06:24.110 --> 00:06:26.669 B.O.: Because I still struggle with believing that I 00:06:26.669 --> 00:06:28.539 am a good programmer, and I think this happens 00:06:28.539 --> 00:06:31.060 to everybody, is, there's this impostor syndrome, and I 00:06:31.060 --> 00:06:31.789 think everybody has. Wow. 00:06:31.789 --> 00:06:33.520 N.R.: Sorry. I'm just going back in the slides. 00:06:33.520 --> 00:06:39.169 B.O.: There we go. That's OK. Shwoo. It still 00:06:39.169 --> 00:06:41.310 kind of blows my mind when people think nice 00:06:41.310 --> 00:06:43.550 things about me. And I think that impostor syndrome 00:06:43.550 --> 00:06:45.620 is, like, is very prevalent. And, again, we're in 00:06:45.620 --> 00:06:50.550 a intellectual based field, again, so I try to 00:06:50.550 --> 00:06:53.090 be, like, humility, I think, is my answer to 00:06:53.090 --> 00:06:55.229 that. Like, I try to be humble myself, because 00:06:55.229 --> 00:06:57.710 I've had those own feelings of impostor syndrome, of 00:06:57.710 --> 00:06:59.180 like, not even believing that I know what I'm 00:06:59.180 --> 00:07:01.240 doing. And so, I know that's just amplified a 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:03.539 thousand fold when you're brand new and everything's super 00:07:03.539 --> 00:07:06.060 confusing. So when I've done stuff, particularly with like, 00:07:06.060 --> 00:07:09.349 really new people, like a RailsBridge type workshop, I 00:07:09.349 --> 00:07:11.759 like to like, open by saying, like. Don't worry. 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:14.830 The state of being confused and like, this should 00:07:14.830 --> 00:07:17.180 work but it doesn't work. That is the normal 00:07:17.180 --> 00:07:19.659 state of the working programmer. 00:07:19.659 --> 00:07:21.460 That's like, how it is. And so, it's not 00:07:21.460 --> 00:07:23.939 you. It's never you. It's that this is hard 00:07:23.939 --> 00:07:25.550 and it's always gonna be like that. So, hopefully 00:07:25.550 --> 00:07:27.150 you like it. 00:07:27.150 --> 00:07:31.389 R.N.: Despair is what we teach. Long term despair. 00:07:31.389 --> 00:07:34.360 J.M.: Yeah, I was gonna, to back-track a little 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:36.780 bit on what you were saying, you know, we, 00:07:36.780 --> 00:07:38.180 as Liz mentioned, we deal with a lot of 00:07:38.180 --> 00:07:40.229 people who are just starting out. So, actually, a 00:07:40.229 --> 00:07:44.569 lot of them aren't, they're not faking it, and 00:07:44.569 --> 00:07:47.240 what we're working with, they think they're totally incapable 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:48.919 of learning it. You know, on the, on the 00:07:48.919 --> 00:07:52.189 reverse side. So, there's a few things that we 00:07:52.189 --> 00:07:53.930 do in order to make sure that they feel 00:07:53.930 --> 00:07:58.319 comfortable is, for one, we make sure to encourage 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.370 them to ask questions and do not scoff when 00:08:01.370 --> 00:08:04.969 they ask any sort of question, because then we're 00:08:04.969 --> 00:08:07.889 validating them and saying, that is a totally valid 00:08:07.889 --> 00:08:10.069 question, and it's OK if you don't know that. 00:08:10.069 --> 00:08:11.889 And we may not even have the answer. So, 00:08:11.889 --> 00:08:14.000 that type of, like, open discussion, being able to 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:15.610 ask questions is great. 00:08:15.610 --> 00:08:18.729 And then also, just providing positive feedback. Actually, constructive 00:08:18.729 --> 00:08:22.650 feedback. Both positive and even if it's constructive, providing 00:08:22.650 --> 00:08:24.689 it in a positive way, I think really helps 00:08:24.689 --> 00:08:25.710 build peoples' confidence. 00:08:25.710 --> 00:08:29.550 J.C.: Smart. Cause that's what I was thinking. Giving 00:08:29.550 --> 00:08:31.330 a set up where you can give somebody a 00:08:31.330 --> 00:08:34.200 small, a small, quick win, that they've done something 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:36.299 that they could point to, I think is helpful 00:08:36.299 --> 00:08:38.340 in my experience as a teacher. 00:08:38.340 --> 00:08:40.780 B.T.: So I'll just add to that. As one 00:08:40.780 --> 00:08:43.780 who spent six months in a course, I wasn't 00:08:43.780 --> 00:08:46.880 getting it at all, for like, the first three 00:08:46.880 --> 00:08:50.520 months. And it was brutal. And I consider myself 00:08:50.520 --> 00:08:53.830 someone who's actually, I never had any question about 00:08:53.830 --> 00:08:58.590 my ability to learn something new. And so, I 00:08:58.590 --> 00:09:01.390 think, I think in terms of what's important, from 00:09:01.390 --> 00:09:04.070 a student perspective, when you're, when you're in a 00:09:04.070 --> 00:09:10.020 course, is having instructors in an environment where they 00:09:10.020 --> 00:09:13.570 can adapt to your learning style, so they can 00:09:13.570 --> 00:09:15.010 understand, they can look at you and they can 00:09:15.010 --> 00:09:17.350 understand, OK, here's where you're having problems. 00:09:17.350 --> 00:09:20.300 And, change course if that's what's required. Because I 00:09:20.300 --> 00:09:21.960 can say that that was my experience. I kind 00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:24.080 of went, oh my gosh. I still have no 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:25.900 idea what's going on and we're halfway through the 00:09:25.900 --> 00:09:28.590 course and it's not clicking. And I kept getting 00:09:28.590 --> 00:09:30.520 the, it's gonna be OK. It's gonna be OK. 00:09:30.520 --> 00:09:33.120 No. It's not OK. I'm half way through, and 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:34.830 I spent all this money and there's only three 00:09:34.830 --> 00:09:39.240 months left. And essentially, the instructors, you know, at 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:42.830 least with, with Jeff's group, they took a step 00:09:42.830 --> 00:09:45.320 back and said, OK, let's focus on the fundamentals. 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:48.270 And, let's do some smaller steps, and let's do 00:09:48.270 --> 00:09:51.480 that work with you, and that was extraordinarily helpful 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:55.350 for me. And, by the time I graduated, I 00:09:55.350 --> 00:09:58.560 can honestly say I finally felt like, oh, I'm 00:09:58.560 --> 00:10:00.870 a developer now. I may not be, you know, 00:10:00.870 --> 00:10:03.900 a great one, but I like, feel comfortable calling 00:10:03.900 --> 00:10:05.530 myself a developer now. 00:10:05.530 --> 00:10:07.790 L.A.: And in terms of not seeing yourself as 00:10:07.790 --> 00:10:10.250 terrible, you're not terrible if you do one thing 00:10:10.250 --> 00:10:14.190 right. Like, in programming. If you get that image 00:10:14.190 --> 00:10:17.190 to render on your ht- your very first html 00:10:17.190 --> 00:10:20.490 page, but you cannot figure out freaking CSS for 00:10:20.490 --> 00:10:22.870 the life of you, it doesn't matter because you 00:10:22.870 --> 00:10:25.960 got that one thing, that tiny victory, reinforcing those 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:29.240 tiny victories, celebrating those tiny victories, and using those 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:32.580 as moments to break away from the frustrations really 00:10:32.580 --> 00:10:34.800 helps break students out of that pattern of, I'm 00:10:34.800 --> 00:10:37.090 terrible. I don't get this. It's really hard. 00:10:37.090 --> 00:10:41.980 J.C.: I think the, the whole conversation around, like, 00:10:41.980 --> 00:10:44.670 impostor syndrome, I found really interesting. I kind of 00:10:44.670 --> 00:10:47.390 want to ban that phrase. Like, I will probably 00:10:47.390 --> 00:10:50.130 stop saying it, because I, I think it's just 00:10:50.130 --> 00:10:53.890 a part of programming. Thinking, or perhaps knowing that 00:10:53.890 --> 00:10:56.510 you're not good at programmer. And, for me, when 00:10:56.510 --> 00:10:59.370 I first started, our first program as Hungry Academy 00:10:59.370 --> 00:11:01.230 in D.C., and I, when I laid out the 00:11:01.230 --> 00:11:03.620 course plan, there were pieces in there that I 00:11:03.620 --> 00:11:05.140 did not know how to do and had never 00:11:05.140 --> 00:11:07.410 done in a project. And I was so nervous 00:11:07.410 --> 00:11:08.900 and I was like, oh, we're gonna. I'm gonna 00:11:08.900 --> 00:11:09.770 be exposed. 00:11:09.770 --> 00:11:12.010 Right? But I had this co-teacher and I was 00:11:12.010 --> 00:11:14.450 like, he'll know. He's a real consultant and, like, 00:11:14.450 --> 00:11:16.680 he knows how to do these things. It'll be 00:11:16.680 --> 00:11:18.910 OK. And, I think what's happened to me over 00:11:18.910 --> 00:11:21.720 that time is just realizing that, like, I don't 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:24.160 give a shit. Like, if I'm not the best 00:11:24.160 --> 00:11:26.590 programmer - I'm sure Ben's a much better programmer 00:11:26.590 --> 00:11:30.900 than I. So what? Like, it, it, it, probably, 00:11:30.900 --> 00:11:33.140 you know. And so, I'm fortunate, you know, through 00:11:33.140 --> 00:11:35.610 things like RailsConf to talk with amazing people and 00:11:35.610 --> 00:11:38.100 people are like, oh, you know, Jose Valim, like, 00:11:38.100 --> 00:11:40.670 building Elixir. Poof. Like, no idea. I can't even 00:11:40.670 --> 00:11:42.980 understand Elixir, much less how to build it. 00:11:42.980 --> 00:11:44.880 And, he's a much better developer, or, much better 00:11:44.880 --> 00:11:48.980 programmer than I am. But, who cares? Is really, 00:11:48.980 --> 00:11:51.400 I think, something that's valuable to your career. 00:11:51.400 --> 00:11:52.470 N.R.: One thing I feel- sorry. 00:11:52.470 --> 00:11:54.050 J.C.: Like, you're not, you're not measured on some, 00:11:54.050 --> 00:11:56.870 like, benchmark against other, there's no like, programming test, 00:11:56.870 --> 00:11:58.880 like, program this thing in thirty-seven minutes. It's like, 00:11:58.880 --> 00:12:00.550 oh, Jen can do it in thirty-six minutes. She's 00:12:00.550 --> 00:12:02.690 smarter than you. Like, it, it doesn't matter to 00:12:02.690 --> 00:12:03.040 me. 00:12:03.040 --> 00:12:05.490 N.R.: I did it in thirty-five, but. 00:12:05.490 --> 00:12:08.640 J.C.: It's that CD degree. You can do it 00:12:08.640 --> 00:12:09.000 in one minute. 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:09.810 N.R.: I, one thing that I think is really 00:12:09.810 --> 00:12:13.510 important, is try to keep- I saw. Is to 00:12:13.510 --> 00:12:17.300 try to keep novices from comparing themselves against, like, 00:12:17.300 --> 00:12:19.410 the quote on quote heroes. Like, it's really easy 00:12:19.410 --> 00:12:23.100 for somebody to say, like, oh, I see Steve 00:12:23.100 --> 00:12:25.130 Clapnick submit, you know, I see these people who 00:12:25.130 --> 00:12:26.700 submit to open source all day long, and a 00:12:26.700 --> 00:12:28.200 lot of the people who do that, that's actually 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:30.820 one way or another their job. And to compare 00:12:30.820 --> 00:12:34.960 their output, their very public, very voluminous output to 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:37.450 yours, when it's not really your job to do 00:12:37.450 --> 00:12:40.200 that, is unfair to yourself, and a little bit 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:42.140 unfair to them. But mostly unfair to yourself. And 00:12:42.140 --> 00:12:45.820 to try, I've seen, like, novice developers get kind 00:12:45.820 --> 00:12:48.310 of locked in that, that idea that they're not 00:12:48.310 --> 00:12:51.670 doing everything they could be doing. And that's dangerous 00:12:51.670 --> 00:12:54.480 for them. Like, you want them to be celebrating 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:56.440 the victories that they are doing and not comparing 00:12:56.440 --> 00:12:59.100 themselves with the things that they're not. Sorry, what's? 00:12:59.100 --> 00:13:02.500 AUDIENCE: Yes. So, what that brings to mind, for 00:13:02.500 --> 00:13:05.520 me, is [indecipherable - 00:13:04], one of the concerns 00:13:05.520 --> 00:13:08.910 that was brought up was this idea that we 00:13:08.910 --> 00:13:12.310 were missing a lot of developers who are perhaps 00:13:12.310 --> 00:13:15.700 gonna even do some harm in their first, you 00:13:15.700 --> 00:13:17.590 know, first few gigs, perhaps. 00:13:17.590 --> 00:13:19.100 N.R.: All of us do a lot of harm 00:13:19.100 --> 00:13:25.500 in our first few gigs, right. Like. Yes. 00:13:25.500 --> 00:13:31.660 AUDIENCE: So this question's for all of you. I 00:13:31.660 --> 00:13:32.300 wonder if, if teaching the next 'great' developers is 00:13:32.300 --> 00:13:32.630 even the right question to be asking. And if 00:13:32.630 --> 00:13:33.480 N.R.: So, OK. So, the question is whether teaching 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:35.210 the next great developers is the right question, and 00:13:35.210 --> 00:13:38.000 if so what is? Great developers was my fault. 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:40.300 Don't blame them for calling this great developers. 00:13:40.300 --> 00:13:41.540 J.C.: That's link bait. 00:13:41.540 --> 00:13:42.610 N.R.: Yeah. 00:13:42.610 --> 00:13:43.680 B.O.: And you're here. 00:13:43.680 --> 00:13:46.450 N.R.: If I had only said, if I had 00:13:46.450 --> 00:13:48.560 only said good developers, half of you would be 00:13:48.560 --> 00:13:50.860 off learning- teaching the next half-assed developers. 00:13:50.860 --> 00:13:54.450 J.C.: Yeah. I, I think one of the privileges 00:13:54.450 --> 00:13:58.170 of working with these programs and people that come 00:13:58.170 --> 00:14:01.190 into our program and, and programs like all these 00:14:01.190 --> 00:14:04.750 people participate in is that they might not be 00:14:04.750 --> 00:14:08.350 great developers. And, like, Bree wants to be a 00:14:08.350 --> 00:14:10.950 full-time developer. In ten years, will Bree be a 00:14:10.950 --> 00:14:13.070 full time developer? I'm not so sure. But will 00:14:13.070 --> 00:14:16.070 she be doing something amazing in technology, and like 00:14:16.070 --> 00:14:18.020 probably be running a company? Will I be working 00:14:18.020 --> 00:14:20.720 for her? Like, above zero change, you know. 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:25.150 Like, and so the people that, mostly, I guess 00:14:25.150 --> 00:14:26.540 one of the things that surprises people about our 00:14:26.540 --> 00:14:28.350 program, and I think it's probably similar for Dev 00:14:28.350 --> 00:14:31.830 BootCamp, is most of our students are career changers. 00:14:31.830 --> 00:14:34.190 It's not their first career. And so they've got 00:14:34.190 --> 00:14:36.150 these years of experience about how to be a 00:14:36.150 --> 00:14:38.870 professional. They've got years of experience in some domain, 00:14:38.870 --> 00:14:42.300 whether it's finance or health or restaurants or whatever 00:14:42.300 --> 00:14:46.420 it is. And that experience is gonna be amazing 00:14:46.420 --> 00:14:49.010 for what they do next, after their first couple 00:14:49.010 --> 00:14:49.810 jobs, right. 00:14:49.810 --> 00:14:51.990 Noel and I, we have these CS degrees. We're 00:14:51.990 --> 00:14:53.190 like, one day gonna get thrown out of a 00:14:53.190 --> 00:14:56.880 Ruby Conference. Like, marked and thrown out. 00:14:56.880 --> 00:14:57.900 N.R.: Re-education. 00:14:57.900 --> 00:15:00.180 J.C.: But those people, I'm excited to see, like, 00:15:00.180 --> 00:15:02.350 yes, they're gonna really mess up some projects in 00:15:02.350 --> 00:15:04.250 the short term. But what they do when they 00:15:04.250 --> 00:15:06.440 get to the point of leading teams and starting 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:08.000 companies I think is, well, it's gonna be really 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:08.340 cool. 00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:10.860 J.M.: Yeah. I think that the question really is, 00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:13.690 what does great mean? And my, my definition of 00:15:13.690 --> 00:15:15.760 it is similar to what Jeff is describing, is 00:15:15.760 --> 00:15:18.650 that people who bring a really great diversity of 00:15:18.650 --> 00:15:22.090 experience and backgrounds and to, to kind of enrich 00:15:22.090 --> 00:15:25.350 the products that we're making. That's exciting. And he's 00:15:25.350 --> 00:15:26.700 right. In Dev BootCamp, we do have a lot 00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:29.920 of people who have really unique backgrounds, and have 00:15:29.920 --> 00:15:32.670 some really cool perspectives that they bring into things, 00:15:32.670 --> 00:15:35.610 and are just, like, great people. 00:15:35.610 --> 00:15:37.180 And those are people you want to work with 00:15:37.180 --> 00:15:40.010 on teams, and they, you know, they just help 00:15:40.010 --> 00:15:42.490 you make better things together. So that, I'd like 00:15:42.490 --> 00:15:45.700 to have that definition of great, and kind of 00:15:45.700 --> 00:15:47.870 tease out the, the potential in those people who 00:15:47.870 --> 00:15:49.960 have other things that they can bring to it, 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:52.630 and help them contribute that for making the developers 00:15:52.630 --> 00:15:52.940 they are. 00:15:52.940 --> 00:15:55.250 B.O.: I really like both those answers, because I 00:15:55.250 --> 00:15:57.070 think one of the, the best things about programming 00:15:57.070 --> 00:15:59.580 is that it's an awesome force multiplier on something 00:15:59.580 --> 00:16:01.790 else that you want to do. So rather than 00:16:01.790 --> 00:16:03.160 being like, I want to be really amazing at 00:16:03.160 --> 00:16:05.020 writing code, if you can say, I want to 00:16:05.020 --> 00:16:06.670 do, I want to change lives in this way 00:16:06.670 --> 00:16:08.770 or make this sort of thing, and programming is 00:16:08.770 --> 00:16:10.660 the super power that lets you do it harder 00:16:10.660 --> 00:16:12.610 and faster, I think that's like, the best way 00:16:12.610 --> 00:16:13.530 to think about that. 00:16:13.530 --> 00:16:15.180 I have a friend who has just enough programming 00:16:15.180 --> 00:16:17.320 background, that at, he works at a bank with 00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:20.220 a bunch of finance people, and everyone he works 00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:23.730 with, basically they massage Excel spreadsheets all day. And 00:16:23.730 --> 00:16:27.470 he has just enough programming background to write VB 00:16:27.470 --> 00:16:30.070 to do some of this massaging automatically. And he 00:16:30.070 --> 00:16:32.530 is, you know, the one-eyed man in the land 00:16:32.530 --> 00:16:34.510 of the blind. Like, he is, there is, he 00:16:34.510 --> 00:16:36.770 is revered, and people are blown away, because he 00:16:36.770 --> 00:16:37.550 can do these things. 00:16:37.550 --> 00:16:39.110 And I think that's the perfect way to say, 00:16:39.110 --> 00:16:41.430 rather than saying I'm gonna be amazing at code 00:16:41.430 --> 00:16:43.180 for code's sake, if you think, you know, I'm 00:16:43.180 --> 00:16:46.290 gonna get good at using code as this amplifier, 00:16:46.290 --> 00:16:47.880 as a tool for the other things I want 00:16:47.880 --> 00:16:48.120 to do. 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:49.930 N.R.: What they used to say about journalism school 00:16:49.930 --> 00:16:51.920 is don't do journalism school as an undergraduate. Learn 00:16:51.920 --> 00:16:54.490 something, and then learn how to apply journalism to 00:16:54.490 --> 00:16:56.530 it. I think programming is very similar. Like, learn 00:16:56.530 --> 00:16:58.680 how to do something and then learn how to 00:16:58.680 --> 00:16:59.720 apply programming to it. 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:01.800 One thing I have seen from both the, I've 00:17:01.800 --> 00:17:04.780 met a number of Dev BootCamp and GSchool, Jumpstart 00:17:04.780 --> 00:17:08.709 graduates, and they do seem very enthusiastic as a 00:17:08.709 --> 00:17:11.439 group, as people who have, like, chosen something and 00:17:11.439 --> 00:17:14.289 gone through and succeeded in this challenging program. They 00:17:14.289 --> 00:17:16.970 tend to come out being, being very enthusiastic. 00:17:16.970 --> 00:17:18.079 K.E.: You have to. 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:18.500 N.R.: Yeah. 00:17:18.500 --> 00:17:20.400 K.E.: I mean, you spend eighty to ninety hours 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:22.159 a week. 00:17:22.159 --> 00:17:23.939 N.R.: So the question is, how do we make 00:17:23.939 --> 00:17:25.929 sure that the next generation of developers has the 00:17:25.929 --> 00:17:30.860 interpersonal skills to be leaders and, and mentors within 00:17:30.860 --> 00:17:31.710 the community. 00:17:31.710 --> 00:17:33.440 L.A.: I don't know if you've noticed this about 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.250 me. I'm kind of a perky person. I'm kind 00:17:35.250 --> 00:17:38.210 of, you know, friendly, I hug a lot. When 00:17:38.210 --> 00:17:40.429 I introduce myself at Girl Develop It classes, I 00:17:40.429 --> 00:17:43.259 always say, I wasn't doing this a year ago. 00:17:43.259 --> 00:17:45.039 I don't get to say that anymore because it's 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:48.200 now been a year. I'm so proud of myself. 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:50.570 But, I tell them, when I tell them my 00:17:50.570 --> 00:17:52.700 story, I say, I made this career transition. I 00:17:52.700 --> 00:17:55.049 went to Dev BootCamp. I made this choice. And 00:17:55.049 --> 00:17:56.799 I would not have been able to do this 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:00.429 without the assistance of my mentors, of my friends, 00:18:00.429 --> 00:18:03.279 of the teachers at Dev BootCamp who, Jen talked 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:05.330 me down from a ledge a couple times. It 00:18:05.330 --> 00:18:08.750 was not easy. It was really difficult. And I 00:18:08.750 --> 00:18:10.769 preach that to them, and I tell them, I'm 00:18:10.769 --> 00:18:12.820 here for you. Katie's here for you. We have 00:18:12.820 --> 00:18:15.370 meet ups. We're your friends. We're your mentors. We 00:18:15.370 --> 00:18:17.580 are here. You should be here for the people 00:18:17.580 --> 00:18:19.850 that you need help with. And we encourage them 00:18:19.850 --> 00:18:22.639 to help each other during class. So it's not 00:18:22.639 --> 00:18:25.080 just something we say, do this, maybe, you know, 00:18:25.080 --> 00:18:27.419 in a year or a month or however long, 00:18:27.419 --> 00:18:30.029 x days, until you become a developer. 00:18:30.029 --> 00:18:32.460 It's do this right now. Do this in class. 00:18:32.460 --> 00:18:34.629 Help this person next to you when they're struggling. 00:18:34.629 --> 00:18:37.840 J.M.: And, and, at Dev BootCamp, we actually kind 00:18:37.840 --> 00:18:39.779 of take it a bit further and formalize it. 00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:41.419 So we actually have a portion of our curriculum 00:18:41.419 --> 00:18:45.460 that's called Engineering Empathy. The students all go through 00:18:45.460 --> 00:18:51.159 guided sessions in feedback and communication and, you know, 00:18:51.159 --> 00:18:54.230 understanding themselves as, as kind of touchy-feely as that 00:18:54.230 --> 00:18:57.490 sounds. The goal is exactly what you described, is 00:18:57.490 --> 00:19:00.659 to get people to know how to communicate better, 00:19:00.659 --> 00:19:03.750 know themselves better, have better team dynamics, and just 00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:07.309 be well-rounded individuals that know how to connect with 00:19:07.309 --> 00:19:10.679 other people. Whether it's on their teams or clients 00:19:10.679 --> 00:19:12.919 or customers, any of those sort of things that 00:19:12.919 --> 00:19:14.789 you need to be able to, to build really 00:19:14.789 --> 00:19:16.049 good software. 00:19:16.049 --> 00:19:18.149 We formalize that, we have sessions for it, and 00:19:18.149 --> 00:19:20.720 then we try to support structure around it. Like 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:23.629 Liz describes, of all of us being on board 00:19:23.629 --> 00:19:25.950 and all the instructors are there to kind of, 00:19:25.950 --> 00:19:27.690 to reinforce it as they go all the way 00:19:27.690 --> 00:19:28.460 through the program. 00:19:28.460 --> 00:19:31.440 B.T.: I would just add to that, specifically to 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.429 your question about how do we foster this? I 00:19:33.429 --> 00:19:37.850 would say that, in, I am a very extroverted 00:19:37.850 --> 00:19:41.509 person, and aside from that, I think it's really 00:19:41.509 --> 00:19:45.169 important when you, when you work with new developers, 00:19:45.169 --> 00:19:48.980 be in their business. Like, don't let them, you 00:19:48.980 --> 00:19:51.480 know, OK, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got this. I'm 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:53.039 just gonna go work over here on this thing, 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:54.950 or I'm gonna do a couple hours of code 00:19:54.950 --> 00:19:57.950 school till you give me a task to do. 00:19:57.950 --> 00:20:00.570 Because I think as new developers, no matter how 00:20:00.570 --> 00:20:03.840 extroverted we are or, there, there is still a 00:20:03.840 --> 00:20:06.049 little bit, that fear of, oh gosh. We're gonna 00:20:06.049 --> 00:20:08.820 break production. Oh shit. 00:20:08.820 --> 00:20:11.149 Or whatever it is. Or you know, maybe we're 00:20:11.149 --> 00:20:13.860 just, we're too nervous to ask questions because you 00:20:13.860 --> 00:20:16.870 guys look really busy doing the real work. So, 00:20:16.870 --> 00:20:19.559 I would, I just think it's important, at least 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:22.499 for me, I mean, I like it when mentors 00:20:22.499 --> 00:20:25.159 and people that I look up to are, they're 00:20:25.159 --> 00:20:26.909 like in my business. They're like, OK, what are 00:20:26.909 --> 00:20:30.059 you doing? Let's talk about that. Let me shoulder 00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:32.080 hawk you for a few. Let's pair program. I 00:20:32.080 --> 00:20:34.789 think all of that is really important in fostering 00:20:34.789 --> 00:20:37.049 new developers. 00:20:37.049 --> 00:20:41.679 J.C.: Anybody in the room been a mentor for 00:20:41.679 --> 00:20:44.820 a program like one of ours? So, number one, 00:20:44.820 --> 00:20:47.490 want to give you tremendous shout outs, that those 00:20:47.490 --> 00:20:52.279 relationships are incredibly valuable for our students. People like 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:54.919 Shawn had a mentor, a mentee in our program, 00:20:54.919 --> 00:20:58.340 and like, Shawn changed that young man's life. Like, 00:20:58.340 --> 00:21:03.090 without a doubt. So, tremendous shout outs. 00:21:03.090 --> 00:21:05.379 Fostering the interpersonal communication I think is the most 00:21:05.379 --> 00:21:08.240 valuable piece we can add, right. Like, the code 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:10.350 you can get from a book. And how to 00:21:10.350 --> 00:21:12.419 work with a team and how a team goes 00:21:12.419 --> 00:21:15.249 wrong and right, you only get through experience. And 00:21:15.249 --> 00:21:18.450 so, that's like, with our program, we're fortunate to 00:21:18.450 --> 00:21:21.059 have a very long time. And so, they work 00:21:21.059 --> 00:21:23.870 primarily in three week projects with groups of four 00:21:23.870 --> 00:21:27.799 people. And you learn all the hard lessons of, 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:29.360 hopefully, some of those first projects that you would 00:21:29.360 --> 00:21:31.889 otherwise screw up for money, you screw up on 00:21:31.889 --> 00:21:34.210 your own time and your own money. 00:21:34.210 --> 00:21:36.559 You see the team that has all the all-stars 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:38.860 and they go in with all the confidence, and 00:21:38.860 --> 00:21:40.710 they're like, yeah, we've been doing this Rails thing 00:21:40.710 --> 00:21:42.769 for six weeks, we're gonna build a Backbone frontend. 00:21:42.769 --> 00:21:44.620 And we're like, yeah, don't do it. And they're 00:21:44.620 --> 00:21:46.399 like, no, we're gonna do it. OK. And then 00:21:46.399 --> 00:21:47.629 it all burns down, right. 00:21:47.629 --> 00:21:49.970 Or, you see the team that is honestly kind 00:21:49.970 --> 00:21:52.370 of mediocre with their skills, but they get along 00:21:52.370 --> 00:21:55.120 and they pair well together, and they communicate well, 00:21:55.120 --> 00:21:56.820 and then they end up delivering better software than 00:21:56.820 --> 00:21:58.169 the all-star team, and the all-star team is like, 00:21:58.169 --> 00:22:00.539 hey, wait a second. Like, we should talk to 00:22:00.539 --> 00:22:02.779 each other and, like, figure stuff out. Hmm. This 00:22:02.779 --> 00:22:03.960 works better. 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:07.539 And, just getting to iterate on those problems and 00:22:07.539 --> 00:22:09.519 learn them yourself, not just, like, hear it in 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:11.659 a conference talk and try to follow through. We 00:22:11.659 --> 00:22:14.399 do little things like lightning talks. I know you 00:22:14.399 --> 00:22:17.379 guys do lightning talks also. So, I, I like 00:22:17.379 --> 00:22:18.960 to think that that has like, lead to like, 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:20.590 Bree's giving a talk tomorrow and a couple of 00:22:20.590 --> 00:22:23.990 your grads are giving talks and so forth. 00:22:23.990 --> 00:22:28.730 R.N.: Sorry, next. Yeah. Go ahead. 00:22:28.730 --> 00:22:30.809 So, so the question is, is does it scare 00:22:30.809 --> 00:22:32.370 us that we're bringing in a bunch of people 00:22:32.370 --> 00:22:34.870 into an industry that's horrible at onboarding people. 00:22:34.870 --> 00:22:36.929 J.C.: I heard there's a talk about crafting your 00:22:36.929 --> 00:22:39.519 own onboarding experience that's really phenomenal. 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:44.490 J.M.: I mean, it's a little scary, especially as 00:22:44.490 --> 00:22:46.999 somebody who has been an instructor, you really care 00:22:46.999 --> 00:22:48.509 a lot about those students, and they go out 00:22:48.509 --> 00:22:50.460 into the world and it's a little bit like, 00:22:50.460 --> 00:22:52.210 yeah, you're, you're sending your kid off to school 00:22:52.210 --> 00:22:56.269 or something like that. You don't know what's gonna 00:22:56.269 --> 00:22:56.840 happen. 00:22:56.840 --> 00:22:58.429 But, you know, I'm not really sure how to 00:22:58.429 --> 00:23:01.090 solve that problem other than just attack it. And 00:23:01.090 --> 00:23:03.799 so I think that if we can bring people, 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:06.289 or produce people that do know how to own 00:23:06.289 --> 00:23:10.120 their own learning and know how to communicate well, 00:23:10.120 --> 00:23:11.659 then those are some of the best weapons we 00:23:11.659 --> 00:23:13.809 have to improve the overall process for other people 00:23:13.809 --> 00:23:16.999 coming in. And hopefully we can also, for those 00:23:16.999 --> 00:23:19.940 of us who know some these challenges, can provide 00:23:19.940 --> 00:23:22.330 more structure and, and, you know, we, we have 00:23:22.330 --> 00:23:24.559 a placements team who works with companies to hire 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:27.220 our grads and things like that. So, we, we 00:23:27.220 --> 00:23:29.539 can build a structure that maybe can help provide 00:23:29.539 --> 00:23:32.389 more resources or help for the companies that are, 00:23:32.389 --> 00:23:34.259 are taking our grads, and just make it smoother 00:23:34.259 --> 00:23:36.480 for everybody. And hopefully the more we do that, 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:37.720 the better it gets. 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:39.889 B.O.: I'm sort of the opposite of scared of 00:23:39.889 --> 00:23:42.110 bringing more people in. I think we desperately need 00:23:42.110 --> 00:23:44.779 to do it. Right now, at, at least what 00:23:44.779 --> 00:23:47.409 I see, demand is so much higher than supply, 00:23:47.409 --> 00:23:49.029 and that works out pretty well for us as 00:23:49.029 --> 00:23:50.850 developers that already know what we're doing, right, because 00:23:50.850 --> 00:23:53.330 we're, we're very much in demand. The power is 00:23:53.330 --> 00:23:56.149 on our side right now. But if that demand 00:23:56.149 --> 00:23:58.259 are supply are mismatched for too long, the demand 00:23:58.259 --> 00:24:00.460 will drop. It'll have to drop. And I, I 00:24:00.460 --> 00:24:02.240 know someone who is a CTO for hire. And 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:03.450 so he works a lot of companies. And so 00:24:03.450 --> 00:24:05.059 he had a start up that just got funded 00:24:05.059 --> 00:24:06.769 and was like, OK. Now we're ready. Let's go 00:24:06.769 --> 00:24:08.999 hire a Rails developer. And they couldn't. They couldn't 00:24:08.999 --> 00:24:10.960 find someone. They said, OK, let's not write it 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:12.749 in Rails. We're gonna go somewhere else. 00:24:12.749 --> 00:24:14.450 So, if we have this mismatch for too long, 00:24:14.450 --> 00:24:15.999 I think it will be bad for us. And 00:24:15.999 --> 00:24:18.399 so I think, if we've got this crazy giant 00:24:18.399 --> 00:24:20.179 demand up top, we've got to, got to satisfy 00:24:20.179 --> 00:24:20.289 it. 00:24:20.289 --> 00:24:20.619 N.R.: Speaking of- 00:24:20.619 --> 00:24:21.559 B.O.: And it'll be better in the long run. 00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:22.749 N.R.: Speaking from the side of this of somebody 00:24:22.749 --> 00:24:27.960 who onboards novices, I think that, I mean, this 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:29.570 is a problem that, to some extent, is outside 00:24:29.570 --> 00:24:31.299 of all of their control, right, as Jen was 00:24:31.299 --> 00:24:33.350 alluding to. What we need to do on that, 00:24:33.350 --> 00:24:36.690 on the, on the incoming, on the incoming side, 00:24:36.690 --> 00:24:40.529 is understand that in some cases, the, where, understand 00:24:40.529 --> 00:24:43.460 where these students are coming from, that the experiences 00:24:43.460 --> 00:24:45.269 that they have had and the experiences they haven't 00:24:45.269 --> 00:24:47.700 had, and ideally put them in a situation where 00:24:47.700 --> 00:24:49.759 they can be successful, and where we're matching them 00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:51.190 to expectations that are reasonable. 00:24:51.190 --> 00:24:52.909 You know, I think a lot of the students, 00:24:52.909 --> 00:24:54.169 I think that you guys would agree that, that 00:24:54.169 --> 00:24:56.600 there are better situations for your students to go 00:24:56.600 --> 00:24:58.669 to, and worse situations for your students to go 00:24:58.669 --> 00:24:59.889 to, and you want them to go to a 00:24:59.889 --> 00:25:02.399 place where there are going to be other p- 00:25:02.399 --> 00:25:03.570 you don't want them to go to a place 00:25:03.570 --> 00:25:05.470 where they're going to be the entire straw holding 00:25:05.470 --> 00:25:07.159 up, you know, the one straw holding up this 00:25:07.159 --> 00:25:09.059 huge weight of stuff. You want them to go 00:25:09.059 --> 00:25:12.129 to a place where they're going to be more 00:25:12.129 --> 00:25:13.799 senior people who can put them in a situation 00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:14.679 where they're gonna be successful. 00:25:14.679 --> 00:25:16.619 And I do think we have to get better 00:25:16.619 --> 00:25:20.610 at doing that, generally. 00:25:20.610 --> 00:25:22.759 Creating senior developers is a whole different ball. Jeff, 00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:25.720 did you have a point you wanted to make? 00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.409 J.C.: As far as companies that do and do 00:25:28.409 --> 00:25:32.710 not have apprenticeships, I think of it really as 00:25:32.710 --> 00:25:35.559 evolution. Like, there are so many companies that sit 00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:38.629 around waiting to hire a senior engineer and look 00:25:38.629 --> 00:25:40.669 for six months and don't find any and all 00:25:40.669 --> 00:25:43.899 that. And meanwhile, the company who brought in apprentices, 00:25:43.899 --> 00:25:46.619 they now have six months experience, and they're delivering 00:25:46.619 --> 00:25:48.710 probably, like, somebody with two years of experience, if 00:25:48.710 --> 00:25:50.690 they're doing it well. And the reality is, if 00:25:50.690 --> 00:25:54.169 your company does, in my opinion, does not work 00:25:54.169 --> 00:25:57.200 on bringing in young people, young in their career, 00:25:57.200 --> 00:26:00.220 you're gonna die. Like, you're just gonna lose. Because 00:26:00.220 --> 00:26:02.980 the teams that build up their own people keep 00:26:02.980 --> 00:26:06.389 those people. Those people are tremendously valuable six months, 00:26:06.389 --> 00:26:08.519 a year, eighteen months in. And they'll just beat 00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:08.779 you. 00:26:08.779 --> 00:26:10.299 N.R.: Dave, Dave Hoover had a theory at Optiva 00:26:10.299 --> 00:26:12.669 that the goal of a, a small company was 00:26:12.669 --> 00:26:14.869 to have people at every level. You have the 00:26:14.869 --> 00:26:17.429 best novices, you have the best intermediate juniors, you 00:26:17.429 --> 00:26:19.350 have the best people right after that. You don't 00:26:19.350 --> 00:26:20.700 just have a bunch of seniors and a bunch 00:26:20.700 --> 00:26:23.080 of novices. You have people, to the extent that 00:26:23.080 --> 00:26:25.720 you can have people at every step in between. 00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:28.190 What's great about that is, everybody has somebody who's 00:26:28.190 --> 00:26:31.009 about six months ahead of them to point what 00:26:31.009 --> 00:26:32.830 their next six months are gonna be like, and 00:26:32.830 --> 00:26:35.330 everybody has somebody who's six months behind them, that 00:26:35.330 --> 00:26:38.690 they are an obvious and immediate, like, partner for. 00:26:38.690 --> 00:26:40.350 So if you can build up a business like 00:26:40.350 --> 00:26:42.179 that, if you can build up a team like 00:26:42.179 --> 00:26:43.539 that, that's, that's fantastic. 00:26:43.539 --> 00:26:45.970 B.O.: We've embraced that like crazy. Like, bringing in 00:26:45.970 --> 00:26:47.850 apprentice level people. We have an apprentice program. And 00:26:47.850 --> 00:26:49.379 it's been huge for us. We've been able to 00:26:49.379 --> 00:26:51.749 hire so many more awesome people than we would 00:26:51.749 --> 00:26:53.110 have if we had just said, we're looking for 00:26:53.110 --> 00:26:56.730 senior only. We're not willing to invest in these 00:26:56.730 --> 00:26:59.960 people and train them. 00:26:59.960 --> 00:27:02.080 N.R.: So the question is, how do we get, 00:27:02.080 --> 00:27:03.399 how do we get the people coming in to 00:27:03.399 --> 00:27:07.309 set reasonable goals for what they can accomplish, technically? 00:27:07.309 --> 00:27:11.980 B.T.: I'll start. Well, after being a student of 00:27:11.980 --> 00:27:16.360 this gentleman, he's actually, I would say, over the, 00:27:16.360 --> 00:27:18.929 over the six months that I was school, to 00:27:18.929 --> 00:27:21.629 that point, he was actually really good in that 00:27:21.629 --> 00:27:23.809 learning time about, like, oh. You think you can 00:27:23.809 --> 00:27:27.669 do this thing? Go ahead. Knock yourself out. Right? 00:27:27.669 --> 00:27:29.529 So, much like with children, I have a seven 00:27:29.529 --> 00:27:30.590 year old, it's kind of like, you're in charge 00:27:30.590 --> 00:27:33.080 of your own fun. You learn a lot by 00:27:33.080 --> 00:27:35.749 being crushed by some of those, oh, this was 00:27:35.749 --> 00:27:37.649 a lot harder than I thought it was gonna 00:27:37.649 --> 00:27:41.539 be. So I think there's something important about that. 00:27:41.539 --> 00:27:44.980 In terms of at the work place, I'd, at 00:27:44.980 --> 00:27:47.749 least where I work, you know, they're very good 00:27:47.749 --> 00:27:51.529 about, and, and they have a, a focus on 00:27:51.529 --> 00:27:54.119 kind of onboarding, right. And so they're very good 00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:56.980 about, hey, we're going to help define these goals 00:27:56.980 --> 00:27:59.840 with you. We're gonna help ease you into the 00:27:59.840 --> 00:28:03.659 code base. And we're gonna do that with smaller 00:28:03.659 --> 00:28:06.889 sets of problems to solve. And we're not going 00:28:06.889 --> 00:28:10.090 to place this burden on you for, get this 00:28:10.090 --> 00:28:13.129 feature done by this exact time. 00:28:13.129 --> 00:28:15.019 And so I think all of that is, is 00:28:15.019 --> 00:28:17.940 really, really helpful. And the other thing that I 00:28:17.940 --> 00:28:19.580 think's really helpful and goes a little bit back 00:28:19.580 --> 00:28:21.049 to what we were talking about just a second 00:28:21.049 --> 00:28:26.139 ago is, in terms of students, you know, even 00:28:26.139 --> 00:28:29.480 in being novices, there's different levels of that. And, 00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:31.960 and people are different. And so I think that 00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:34.480 the programs that do exist right now, Dev BootCamp 00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:35.700 and the other ones, I think one thing that's 00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:39.210 really important and that was beneficial for me especially, 00:28:39.210 --> 00:28:43.489 was as I went through the interview process, my 00:28:43.489 --> 00:28:46.710 instructors were there with me through the whole thing. 00:28:46.710 --> 00:28:49.720 And they were really, really honest with me, as 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:53.909 well as having conversations with employers, about my ability. 00:28:53.909 --> 00:28:58.200 And so, that helped, that honesty about, you know, 00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:00.220 where I'm at in my learning and the type 00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:02.200 of learner that I am and the things that 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:05.059 I'm interested in, is beneficial so that I don't 00:29:05.059 --> 00:29:08.610 find myself in a work place where, you know, 00:29:08.610 --> 00:29:11.090 that's all I'm gonna be is, sort of buried 00:29:11.090 --> 00:29:13.600 under these goals or things that I can't, you 00:29:13.600 --> 00:29:15.570 know, where I can't really prosper. 00:29:15.570 --> 00:29:18.840 L.A.: On that note, it's also important to teach 00:29:18.840 --> 00:29:22.220 people to reassess their goals and to be able 00:29:22.220 --> 00:29:24.929 to take note of where they are and where 00:29:24.929 --> 00:29:26.580 they expected to be, and maybe think about why 00:29:26.580 --> 00:29:28.629 they're not. I think that's also a very important 00:29:28.629 --> 00:29:29.149 piece. 00:29:29.149 --> 00:29:31.059 J.M.: Yeah. I just want to kind of, I 00:29:31.059 --> 00:29:32.379 like, really both of those, and I like what 00:29:32.379 --> 00:29:34.519 you're saying, too. Maybe it's a parent thing. I 00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:36.730 have an eight-year-old. And I feel the same way, 00:29:36.730 --> 00:29:39.529 where, I feel very strongly it's important for people 00:29:39.529 --> 00:29:42.470 to make mistakes and be able to learn from 00:29:42.470 --> 00:29:43.820 them. And I don't think it's so much about 00:29:43.820 --> 00:29:45.950 preventing them from, you know, trying to scale back 00:29:45.950 --> 00:29:48.350 the goals to prevent them from making any mistakes, 00:29:48.350 --> 00:29:50.619 but, creating an environment where it's safe to do 00:29:50.619 --> 00:29:52.600 that, and them helping them in figuring out what 00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:54.980 they can learn from it when they do that. 00:29:54.980 --> 00:29:56.909 So that's kind of, in general, the philosophy that 00:29:56.909 --> 00:29:59.139 I like to ascribe to, and I think, Dev 00:29:59.139 --> 00:30:01.759 BootCamp is in a little bit of a different 00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:03.690 situation, where we don't have people as long as 00:30:03.690 --> 00:30:05.159 some of the other schools. We only have people 00:30:05.159 --> 00:30:07.539 for nine weeks. So we don't have as much 00:30:07.539 --> 00:30:09.330 time to do that, but I think we do 00:30:09.330 --> 00:30:10.950 that in general, and then also the way we 00:30:10.950 --> 00:30:14.049 structure the program starts with the basic building blocks, 00:30:14.049 --> 00:30:15.669 and then builds on top of them. 00:30:15.669 --> 00:30:18.239 We're a Ruby on Rails training program, but you 00:30:18.239 --> 00:30:20.559 don't even get to Rails until your seventh week 00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:23.850 of the program. So, we're teaching the fundamentals before 00:30:23.850 --> 00:30:25.210 then. So I think if you start out with 00:30:25.210 --> 00:30:27.549 the, the basic blocks and build up from there, 00:30:27.549 --> 00:30:29.039 and also at the same time kind of create 00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:31.590 this environment where it's OK to screw things up, 00:30:31.590 --> 00:30:33.539 and somebody's gonna help you figure out, you know, 00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:35.720 how to learn from that, or, as the two 00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:38.059 things together make it a lot easier to understand 00:30:38.059 --> 00:30:39.629 what you can achieve and how to do it. 00:30:39.629 --> 00:30:43.009 J.C.: No, hold on man. I'm going. Hold on. 00:30:43.009 --> 00:30:45.940 N.R.: I'm sorry. You can have your question after 00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:47.029 Jeff says something. 00:30:47.029 --> 00:30:49.989 J.C.: So, TDD I heard is over. 00:30:49.989 --> 00:30:50.409 N.R.: Dead. 00:30:50.409 --> 00:30:51.669 J.C.: But, we teach it anyway. 00:30:51.669 --> 00:30:53.549 N.R.: Not, not, not, not just over. Dead. Dead. 00:30:53.549 --> 00:30:55.869 J.C.: So we're old fashion. It's dead. Well, we're 00:30:55.869 --> 00:30:59.279 old fashioned. And so we, we teach TDD, and 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:03.179 it starts on day two, and I think that 00:31:03.179 --> 00:31:05.600 the approach behind TDD is the same approach behind 00:31:05.600 --> 00:31:09.090 lean start up. And, like, breaking off incredibly small 00:31:09.090 --> 00:31:11.840 problems, getting feedback right away and iterating on that. 00:31:11.840 --> 00:31:15.239 And so by starting with TDD, as the means 00:31:15.239 --> 00:31:17.440 to build software, and then we try, through these 00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:20.369 three week projects they work on in their teams, 00:31:20.369 --> 00:31:23.190 really take, like, a lean approach to delivering it 00:31:23.190 --> 00:31:25.509 early, adding on incremental features. 00:31:25.509 --> 00:31:26.549 Well, first we let them try and build all 00:31:26.549 --> 00:31:28.409 the features and deliver it day of, and it 00:31:28.409 --> 00:31:30.730 all burns down and we're like, see. That sucks. 00:31:30.730 --> 00:31:31.799 Don't do that again. 00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:36.239 And, but, like, by, by starting with the tests, 00:31:36.239 --> 00:31:38.710 and then applying that to the product, I think 00:31:38.710 --> 00:31:41.129 it teaches you how to take an idea and 00:31:41.129 --> 00:31:44.049 figure out, what is the essential component here? Like, 00:31:44.049 --> 00:31:46.269 whether, whether it's an aspiration for a company I'm 00:31:46.269 --> 00:31:48.720 gonna build, or just the goal for, I'm gonna 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.590 learn something. Like, it's critically important to figure out, 00:31:51.590 --> 00:31:53.460 like, what's the first step. And I think that's 00:31:53.460 --> 00:31:55.149 the hardest part of any good idea. 00:31:55.149 --> 00:31:58.529 N.R.: OK. Now you can ask your question. 00:31:58.529 --> 00:32:01.989 J.C.: So I'm very involved in the interview process 00:32:01.989 --> 00:32:03.749 and do a lot of like, coaching with the 00:32:03.749 --> 00:32:07.859 students and so forth. And, your technical interviews are 00:32:07.859 --> 00:32:11.799 a hot mess. Like, people have cargo culted their 00:32:11.799 --> 00:32:15.600 process from, like, two companies ago, and you'll see, 00:32:15.600 --> 00:32:19.179 sometimes, it, it makes absolutely no sense. There is 00:32:19.179 --> 00:32:21.659 a company that'll put, like, students through six rounds 00:32:21.659 --> 00:32:23.940 of interviews, and then say no. And I'm like, 00:32:23.940 --> 00:32:25.840 do you understand how much of your own time 00:32:25.840 --> 00:32:29.039 you've wasted here? Like, it's insane. 00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:32.179 Specifically with the technical questions, you'll see such a 00:32:32.179 --> 00:32:34.580 broad range. People will be like, I have an 00:32:34.580 --> 00:32:35.629 array. How do I pull out an element? And 00:32:35.629 --> 00:32:39.619 it's like, really? Come on. And then there's others, 00:32:39.619 --> 00:32:41.440 we, we did have a student get asked, like, 00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:43.509 are you familiar with binary trees? And he said, 00:32:43.509 --> 00:32:45.090 like, yeah. I've built a binary tree. And they're 00:32:45.090 --> 00:32:48.779 like, do you know, like the, the lookup efficiency 00:32:48.779 --> 00:32:51.350 of something? And he's like, oh, you mean like, 00:32:51.350 --> 00:32:52.619 n log(n)? And it's like boom. Bomb dropped on 00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:53.869 you. Like, you didn't see that coming from somebody 00:32:53.869 --> 00:32:57.179 who's been doing it for six months, right. 00:32:57.179 --> 00:33:00.499 The reality is that, code, like, everyone, I guess 00:33:00.499 --> 00:33:03.970 not everyone. You should agree that coding on a 00:33:03.970 --> 00:33:06.409 white board is dumb, right. I tell students that 00:33:06.409 --> 00:33:07.700 if somebody asks you to code on a white 00:33:07.700 --> 00:33:10.789 board, tell them how do I run the tests? 00:33:10.789 --> 00:33:13.879 And, like, question over. 00:33:13.879 --> 00:33:19.710 But the, the piece about, like, how do they 00:33:19.710 --> 00:33:21.570 learn? How do they solve problems? That is incredibly 00:33:21.570 --> 00:33:24.850 valuable. So, yeah. I, I think we need to 00:33:24.850 --> 00:33:29.320 have a lot more conversation around how, as teams 00:33:29.320 --> 00:33:31.039 and companies, do we want to build up interview 00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:34.210 processes that actually achieve the goals and, and like 00:33:34.210 --> 00:33:35.999 find the people that we want? 00:33:35.999 --> 00:33:38.859 Because, from what I've seen, there's like. There's no 00:33:38.859 --> 00:33:40.629 understanding. There's kind of like, fear and uncertainty about 00:33:40.629 --> 00:33:42.879 it. We had a student this time ask, get 00:33:42.879 --> 00:33:45.980 asked to sign an MVA about the interview process. 00:33:45.980 --> 00:33:48.980 There's, it's not that interesting, bros. Like, whatever it 00:33:48.980 --> 00:33:51.220 is, it's not that interesting. So, I think there's 00:33:51.220 --> 00:33:52.940 a lot of work to be done there. 00:33:52.940 --> 00:33:55.519 K.E.: I can just talk on a personal level 00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:57.759 of, I had a really, well, I don't want 00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:00.330 to say I had a bad technical interview. But 00:34:00.330 --> 00:34:02.450 I want to speak to the good technical interview 00:34:02.450 --> 00:34:04.529 that I had at the current company that I'm 00:34:04.529 --> 00:34:05.669 with, and part of the reason why I chose 00:34:05.669 --> 00:34:07.269 to go to that company is because of the 00:34:07.269 --> 00:34:08.859 technical interview. 00:34:08.859 --> 00:34:11.270 And, the interview I had was a take home 00:34:11.270 --> 00:34:13.290 assignment. And this is one of the different formats 00:34:13.290 --> 00:34:15.290 you can do. I had a take home assignment 00:34:15.290 --> 00:34:17.820 for three days to build an API. It was 00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:21.100 my first API, and it was just an amazing 00:34:21.100 --> 00:34:23.429 experience, in that, not only did I get to 00:34:23.429 --> 00:34:26.080 learn something, as part of the interview, I got 00:34:26.080 --> 00:34:30.449 to see how accessible my manager would be, and 00:34:30.449 --> 00:34:32.480 then he was also able to judge, how did 00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:35.409 I attack something that I didn't know? And also, 00:34:35.409 --> 00:34:37.780 what kind of questions that, did I ask? And 00:34:37.780 --> 00:34:41.489 I think we each got a really good understanding 00:34:41.489 --> 00:34:44.960 of what this type of relationship would be like. 00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:46.570 So that's just personal experience. 00:34:46.570 --> 00:34:49.010 B.O.: So the, the process that we do I 00:34:49.010 --> 00:34:50.330 think is actually pretty good. So we do have 00:34:50.330 --> 00:34:52.800 a, a technical screen, which is sort of a 00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:54.449 discussion of, how might you build this? How might 00:34:54.449 --> 00:34:56.300 you build that? But the real meat of the 00:34:56.300 --> 00:34:59.230 interview is, in person pairing in the office. A 00:34:59.230 --> 00:35:01.970 full day. And you work on real stuff. Real 00:35:01.970 --> 00:35:04.850 client work. Real open source work. Whatever people would 00:35:04.850 --> 00:35:06.770 actually normally be doing. And you sit next to 00:35:06.770 --> 00:35:07.980 somebody. And I like that a lot. 00:35:07.980 --> 00:35:10.050 You know, you can run the tests. It's not 00:35:10.050 --> 00:35:12.900 a, a fake, contrived problem. You can see, also, 00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:14.380 what it's like to sit next to somebody, and 00:35:14.380 --> 00:35:16.060 it's cause there's, there's that social fit, which is 00:35:16.060 --> 00:35:18.240 so important, too. And so that, the white boarding 00:35:18.240 --> 00:35:20.480 thing, I agree. That needs to die, for sure. 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:22.250 And, you know, let's move more towards pairing and 00:35:22.250 --> 00:35:23.890 seeing what people are actually like on real stuff 00:35:23.890 --> 00:35:25.600 that you're working on. 00:35:25.600 --> 00:35:29.520 J.C.: I forgot to mention one of my favorite 00:35:29.520 --> 00:35:31.830 interviews that I ever saw, that you reminded me 00:35:31.830 --> 00:35:34.930 of, was ThoughtWorks asks you to create a code 00:35:34.930 --> 00:35:37.800 sample, or, like, solve a sample assignment and submit 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:39.330 it. You have, like, a week, or something along 00:35:39.330 --> 00:35:40.770 those lines. And then when you get into the 00:35:40.770 --> 00:35:42.490 in person interview, what you do is sit down 00:35:42.490 --> 00:35:46.160 with an engineer and pair on refactoring your submission 00:35:46.160 --> 00:35:47.110 to the assignment. 00:35:47.110 --> 00:35:48.730 And so they get to see a lot of 00:35:48.730 --> 00:35:50.510 great things that way. Like, how do you understand 00:35:50.510 --> 00:35:53.090 that you, that you wrote? Did you actually write 00:35:53.090 --> 00:35:55.690 it? You know. Like, and how do you think 00:35:55.690 --> 00:35:57.990 about refactoring. Do you go, like, what it works? 00:35:57.990 --> 00:35:59.350 Why would I change it? You know. Or, do 00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:03.890 you understand how to restructure, abstract objects, abstract methods. 00:36:03.910 --> 00:36:04.690 I thought it was awesome. 00:36:04.700 --> 00:36:05.360 N.R.: We do something like that too, while we're 00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:06.360 sharing, we've done that before. I think we have 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:07.530 time for one more question. 00:36:07.530 --> 00:36:08.330 B.O.: That guy's had his hand up like the 00:36:08.330 --> 00:36:08.880 whole time. 00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:09.700 N.R.: OK. So I will, I will go with 00:36:09.700 --> 00:36:12.880 you. I hope it's a good question. We actually, 00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:15.000 we're last. I have no place to go, I 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:16.340 have no place to go after this. But they 00:36:16.340 --> 00:36:21.400 may stop recording us. 00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:22.370 After dark. 00:36:22.370 --> 00:36:24.070 AUDIENCE: [indecipherable] 00:36:24.070 --> 00:36:26.470 L.A.: We spent a lot of time getting women 00:36:26.470 --> 00:36:29.810 familiar with technical concepts and comfortable talking about technical 00:36:29.810 --> 00:36:32.850 concepts so they can take on more technical roles. 00:36:32.850 --> 00:36:34.700 Not necessarily as an engineer, but perhaps as a 00:36:34.700 --> 00:36:38.050 product manager, instead of doing project management. And, that's 00:36:38.050 --> 00:36:39.830 a subtle difference to us, but it's a huge 00:36:39.830 --> 00:36:41.460 difference to them. It's a world of difference. It's 00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:44.950 more technical responsibility. They're more comfortable with their knowledge. 00:36:44.950 --> 00:36:49.040 And so, my goal, teaching people, is not to 00:36:49.040 --> 00:36:51.380 get them to be x, it's to get them 00:36:51.380 --> 00:36:54.580 to whatever their x happiness will be. I love 00:36:54.580 --> 00:36:56.370 what I do, but that may not be right 00:36:56.370 --> 00:36:58.590 for them. I want to help them in any 00:36:58.590 --> 00:37:00.690 way that I can to get to the technical 00:37:00.690 --> 00:37:02.750 career that they want to have, that will work 00:37:02.750 --> 00:37:05.330 for them. And whatever resources I have, I will 00:37:05.330 --> 00:37:10.810 just like waterfall at their face. So. 00:37:10.810 --> 00:37:14.320 J.C.: It's one of the questions I really try 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:17.160 and watch out for in students, or applicants, at 00:37:17.160 --> 00:37:19.970 that stage, is do you want to be a 00:37:19.970 --> 00:37:23.070 professional developer? And if the answer is no, please 00:37:23.070 --> 00:37:25.910 don't come. Because it's a tremendous waste of time. 00:37:25.910 --> 00:37:28.810 Like, spending twenty-seven weeks to prepare for a job 00:37:28.810 --> 00:37:31.730 you don't want makes no sense. And I redirect 00:37:31.730 --> 00:37:33.940 them, like, you're a lot better off, like, going 00:37:33.940 --> 00:37:36.540 to Dev BootCamp, and you can come out and 00:37:36.540 --> 00:37:39.870 like, you have some programming skills and you can 00:37:39.870 --> 00:37:42.630 reappropriate those into a management position, in a project 00:37:42.630 --> 00:37:44.430 position if you want to. It makes a lot 00:37:44.430 --> 00:37:45.540 more sense. 00:37:45.540 --> 00:37:48.120 J.M.: Yeah. I'll, I'll just add to that. That, 00:37:48.120 --> 00:37:50.110 I think that, sometimes even Dev BootCamp is a 00:37:50.110 --> 00:37:52.870 little too intense for that, just because most of 00:37:52.870 --> 00:37:54.350 the people, like, it's still hard to like quit 00:37:54.350 --> 00:37:55.920 your job for nine weeks if you're just kind 00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:59.220 of doing it to, to pivot. But it is, 00:37:59.220 --> 00:38:01.030 it's less intense, or it might be a little 00:38:01.030 --> 00:38:03.290 bit easier. And we do have people who go 00:38:03.290 --> 00:38:05.480 through who want to apply it to, maybe, a, 00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:07.840 a certain area that isn't just being a straight 00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:10.260 up developer. But I think, like, Liz was talking 00:38:10.260 --> 00:38:12.940 about, things like Girl Develop It and other organizations 00:38:12.940 --> 00:38:16.430 that are working on really reaching out to people, 00:38:16.430 --> 00:38:17.770 and there's lots of them. And they have lots 00:38:17.770 --> 00:38:19.700 of different focuses. But I think that's where they 00:38:19.700 --> 00:38:21.960 really come into play, is that just opening these 00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:24.230 doors, and you get to choose where you go 00:38:24.230 --> 00:38:25.330 after that. 00:38:25.330 --> 00:38:26.330 You know, you kind of just go, maybe a 00:38:26.330 --> 00:38:28.490 door is the wrong word, but more of a 00:38:28.490 --> 00:38:30.310 gateway. And, so then you can go in many 00:38:30.310 --> 00:38:33.460 directions after that. So, I think that these are 00:38:33.460 --> 00:38:35.620 compliments, not nec- they're not all necessarily the same 00:38:35.620 --> 00:38:37.930 thing. We kind of have a spectrum of different 00:38:37.930 --> 00:38:40.370 organizations, and they compliment each other really well. 00:38:40.370 --> 00:38:42.760 The really nice thing about just being, reaching out 00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:45.160 and letting people choose where they want to go, 00:38:45.160 --> 00:38:46.870 maybe they don't know what they want and they 00:38:46.870 --> 00:38:49.570 don't know what's out there. I know, you know, 00:38:49.570 --> 00:38:51.390 as I was growing up, I didn't even have 00:38:51.390 --> 00:38:54.220 the internet, you know. Web, being a web application 00:38:54.220 --> 00:38:56.780 developer didn't even exist. So I had no idea 00:38:56.780 --> 00:38:58.760 until I was probably like in my early twenties 00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:01.070 that maybe this might exist and maybe I can 00:39:01.070 --> 00:39:02.530 start working towards it. 00:39:02.530 --> 00:39:04.530 And there are still, and that was kind of 00:39:04.530 --> 00:39:06.430 a time thing for me. But there are many 00:39:06.430 --> 00:39:08.530 people who don't have access to the opp- to 00:39:08.530 --> 00:39:10.220 the kind of opportunities that we do, and so 00:39:10.220 --> 00:39:13.390 just being able to give them more accessible ways 00:39:13.390 --> 00:39:15.330 to see what is out there, might be able 00:39:15.330 --> 00:39:16.900 to say, oh, well maybe I actually do want 00:39:16.900 --> 00:39:18.040 to do that. And then they can take one 00:39:18.040 --> 00:39:18.990 of these other programs. 00:39:18.990 --> 00:39:21.060 N.R.: Yeah. Things like CodeSchool and Rails for Zombies 00:39:21.060 --> 00:39:22.890 and stuff also have a place in that, too. 00:39:22.890 --> 00:39:25.600 You get, you get a certain amount, enough knowledge 00:39:25.600 --> 00:39:27.930 to understand. You have to have enough. There are 00:39:27.930 --> 00:39:29.200 some positions where all you need to know is 00:39:29.200 --> 00:39:30.580 you need to know when your technical person is 00:39:30.580 --> 00:39:34.720 totally bull shitting you. And that, that's, those kinds 00:39:34.720 --> 00:39:37.260 of things move to that, go to speak to 00:39:37.260 --> 00:39:37.510 that. 00:39:37.510 --> 00:39:39.200 I am obligated to tell you that we're at 00:39:39.200 --> 00:39:40.900 time. I, I don't have any place to go. 00:39:40.900 --> 00:39:43.620 I don't know about you guys. So, if people 00:39:43.620 --> 00:39:46.340 have questions, I'm willing to, with whoever wants, continue 00:39:46.340 --> 00:39:48.850 to answer questions. If you have some place, if 00:39:48.850 --> 00:39:51.400 you guys have places to go, that's fine. But 00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:54.270 first, just a round of applause for the panel. 00:39:54.270 --> 00:39:56.850 Thank you guys all for showing up. And, thank 00:39:56.850 --> 00:39:57.700 you for coming.