NOEL RAPPIN: Hey everybody.

I think we'll get started.

We've got a lot of people on here who

are all gonna wanna talk and we don't have

that much time. So, I'm gonna quickly introduce,

this is, we're doing a panel here on teaching

the next great developers. I have a panel
of

experts here. We'll let them briefly introduce

themselves, and then we will get on with it.

So, I'm Noel Rappin. I'm a Table XI senior

developer, and to some extent I'll be representing
traditional

CS education, if that ever comes up at any

point over the next forty minutes, which I'm
sure

nobody would ever bash traditional CS education
in, in

this forum. So, OK. First up, we got Jeff.

We also only have two microphones so you guys

are gonna pass them around.

JEFF CASIMIR: Hi. My name is Jeff Casimir.
I

run a company called JumpstartLab, and most
recently started

up a training program called Turing, Turing
School of

Software and Design.

N.R.: I put 'labs' up there. I got it

wrong.

J.C.: It's all right. I'll just call it Table

X.

BREE THOMAS: Hi. I'm Bree Thomas, and I'm
a

developer with a company named, called iTriage.
And a

recent grad of this guy's school.

JEN MEYERS: Hi. My name is Jen Meyers, and

I am part of the team at Dev BootCamp

here in Chicago.

N.R.: Jen is filling in at the last minute

for Dave Hoover, who couldn't make it due
to

a family emergency.

LIZ ABENANTE: I'm Liz Abenante. I am a developer

at Instructure and I also co-lead the Girl
Develop

It chapter here in Chicago with this gal.

KATHRIN EXLINE: Hi, my name is. Is. Just kidding.

Is it ready? My name is Katie Exline. You

can call me Katie. I am the co-leader of

Girl Develop It, Chicago. Started in Girl
Develop It

with Girl Develop It, Columbus with that girl.
And

I'm currently a software engineer at a company
called

Fooda. 600 West.

BEN ORENSTEIN: Hi. I'm Ben. I work at ThoughtBot

in Boston. I run our program for training
developers

there called Learn. And I write code and talk

to people and do things like this.

N.R.: So, I'm gonna. So, I want to start

this off by, so, we have a couple of

different kinds of programs here represented.
We have two

different boot camps that are sim- somewhat
similar in

structure, but different in length. We have
the Girl

Develop It, which is more shorter interventions
aimed at

bringing novices into the, into the field,
and we

have online, online inter- somewhat more in-depth
online interventions.

And, I guess, maybe, what I want to start

with is, what is, what do you think is

the most important part that you, in your
program,

bring to teaching a novice developer, and
how do

you think that that fits towards bringing
in the

next generation of developers? To start with.
Anybody can

feel free. Jen's got the mic.

J.M.: I've got the mic. OK. I'll go for

that.

N.R.: So what's the most, what's the most
important

thing at Dev BootCamp. If, if you were to

say that a Dev BootCamp boot came out of

there knowing one or two things, like what,
what's

the most important thing that you try to impart?

J.M.: Honestly, I think the most important
thing that

we try to foster is just being able to

love and learning how to learn. And really
being

able to carry themselves on and our, our goal

is to really produce people who know enough
about

Ruby on Rails to get a job where they

can continue to learn, and that they have
the

tools and the, the muscles built up, that
they

know how to keep learning on their own, and

keep exploring and finding out new things.

So, it's a little bit meta, but I really

do feel like that's one of the things that

is our main goal, to make sure that people

can continue learning for the rest of their
careers

and lives.

J.C.: Kind of a similar vein, I would say

the most important outcome for students is
understanding really

how to take difficult technical problems and
turn them

into sets of small, still difficult but more
manageable

technical problems. And we happen to do that
with

Ruby on Rails, but I'm, it's really validating
when

we see students go into jobs where they do

JavaScript full time, or iOS full time, and
they're

still able to apply all those same patterns
to

a different language and framework and so
forth.

L.A.: And Girl Develop It comes from a slightly

different perspective, because we work with
complete novices in

a wide range of classes, and we're just now

starting to get into programming here in Chicago
with

our gals. But, I think the most important
thing

that I've found teaching these students is
how to

ask questions and where to ask them. Who to

ask, what kind of responses are good responses,
and

what kind of responses are terrible and you
should

ignore them because they're from terrible
people.

B.O.: So, this is actually something that
I think

that it's important for all levels that I'm
working

on myself, honestly, is a willingness to admit
you

don't understand something. There's, I, there's
this phenomenon I've

seen in developing, in particular, where,
because it's an

intellectual-based activity, we have this
really strong impulse to

always act like we know what's going on and

we understand what people are saying.

And I've tried really hard to develop in myself

the ability to be like, I did not follow

that. I don't understand what's going on.
And I

think more of that is really good for the

world. I think, I've seen people, I've seen
myself

do it, too, where you sort of fake it.

Where it's like, oh, are you familiar with
this?

Yeah. I mean, I know I should be, so

therefore I'm gonna say yes. And that definitely,
that

hurts you. Like, you cheat yourself out of
that

immediate learning, and you cheat, you know,
your, your

colleague or the person you're talking to
out of

being able to trust you when they find out

you weren't telling the truth. And there's
just all

this negative impacts from that.

N.R.: So, actually. Let's. I have a, I have

a sort of jumble. Do you guys have questions

in the audience? Like, I have a couple of

prepared questions that are gonna be kind
of vague,

but if you guys have questions in the audience,

yes, no, maybe? Then we, this would be, this

would be, I think, more fruitful if you guys

com- if we come from there.

AUDIENCE: I think everyone thinks they're
terrible at programming

when they start, so how do you help people

N.R.: So the question is, how do you help

people build confidence, given that everybody
thinks they're terrible

when they start, or possibly for several years
after

they've started?

B.O.: I love that question. Did, you repeated
it,

right? Yeah.

N.R.: Yes.

B.O.: Because I still struggle with believing
that I

am a good programmer, and I think this happens

to everybody, is, there's this impostor syndrome,
and I

think everybody has. Wow.

N.R.: Sorry. I'm just going back in the slides.

B.O.: There we go. That's OK. Shwoo. It still

kind of blows my mind when people think nice

things about me. And I think that impostor
syndrome

is, like, is very prevalent. And, again, we're
in

a intellectual based field, again, so I try
to

be, like, humility, I think, is my answer
to

that. Like, I try to be humble myself, because

I've had those own feelings of impostor syndrome,
of

like, not even believing that I know what
I'm

doing. And so, I know that's just amplified
a

thousand fold when you're brand new and everything's
super

confusing. So when I've done stuff, particularly
with like,

really new people, like a RailsBridge type
workshop, I

like to like, open by saying, like. Don't
worry.

The state of being confused and like, this
should

work but it doesn't work. That is the normal

state of the working programmer.

That's like, how it is. And so, it's not

you. It's never you. It's that this is hard

and it's always gonna be like that. So, hopefully

you like it.

R.N.: Despair is what we teach. Long term
despair.

J.M.: Yeah, I was gonna, to back-track a little

bit on what you were saying, you know, we,

as Liz mentioned, we deal with a lot of

people who are just starting out. So, actually,
a

lot of them aren't, they're not faking it,
and

what we're working with, they think they're
totally incapable

of learning it. You know, on the, on the

reverse side. So, there's a few things that
we

do in order to make sure that they feel

comfortable is, for one, we make sure to encourage

them to ask questions and do not scoff when

they ask any sort of question, because then
we're

validating them and saying, that is a totally
valid

question, and it's OK if you don't know that.

And we may not even have the answer. So,

that type of, like, open discussion, being
able to

ask questions is great.

And then also, just providing positive feedback.
Actually, constructive

feedback. Both positive and even if it's constructive,
providing

it in a positive way, I think really helps

build peoples' confidence.

J.C.: Smart. Cause that's what I was thinking.
Giving

a set up where you can give somebody a

small, a small, quick win, that they've done
something

that they could point to, I think is helpful

in my experience as a teacher.

B.T.: So I'll just add to that. As one

who spent six months in a course, I wasn't

getting it at all, for like, the first three

months. And it was brutal. And I consider
myself

someone who's actually, I never had any question
about

my ability to learn something new. And so,
I

think, I think in terms of what's important,
from

a student perspective, when you're, when you're
in a

course, is having instructors in an environment
where they

can adapt to your learning style, so they
can

understand, they can look at you and they
can

understand, OK, here's where you're having
problems.

And, change course if that's what's required.
Because I

can say that that was my experience. I kind

of went, oh my gosh. I still have no

idea what's going on and we're halfway through
the

course and it's not clicking. And I kept getting

the, it's gonna be OK. It's gonna be OK.

No. It's not OK. I'm half way through, and

I spent all this money and there's only three

months left. And essentially, the instructors,
you know, at

least with, with Jeff's group, they took a
step

back and said, OK, let's focus on the fundamentals.

And, let's do some smaller steps, and let's
do

that work with you, and that was extraordinarily
helpful

for me. And, by the time I graduated, I

can honestly say I finally felt like, oh,
I'm

a developer now. I may not be, you know,

a great one, but I like, feel comfortable
calling

myself a developer now.

L.A.: And in terms of not seeing yourself
as

terrible, you're not terrible if you do one
thing

right. Like, in programming. If you get that
image

to render on your ht- your very first html

page, but you cannot figure out freaking CSS
for

the life of you, it doesn't matter because
you

got that one thing, that tiny victory, reinforcing
those

tiny victories, celebrating those tiny victories,
and using those

as moments to break away from the frustrations
really

helps break students out of that pattern of,
I'm

terrible. I don't get this. It's really hard.

J.C.: I think the, the whole conversation
around, like,

impostor syndrome, I found really interesting.
I kind of

want to ban that phrase. Like, I will probably

stop saying it, because I, I think it's just

a part of programming. Thinking, or perhaps
knowing that

you're not good at programmer. And, for me,
when

I first started, our first program as Hungry
Academy

in D.C., and I, when I laid out the

course plan, there were pieces in there that
I

did not know how to do and had never

done in a project. And I was so nervous

and I was like, oh, we're gonna. I'm gonna

be exposed.

Right? But I had this co-teacher and I was

like, he'll know. He's a real consultant and,
like,

he knows how to do these things. It'll be

OK. And, I think what's happened to me over

that time is just realizing that, like, I
don't

give a shit. Like, if I'm not the best

programmer - I'm sure Ben's a much better
programmer

than I. So what? Like, it, it, it, probably,

you know. And so, I'm fortunate, you know,
through

things like RailsConf to talk with amazing
people and

people are like, oh, you know, Jose Valim,
like,

building Elixir. Poof. Like, no idea. I can't
even

understand Elixir, much less how to build
it.

And, he's a much better developer, or, much
better

programmer than I am. But, who cares? Is really,

I think, something that's valuable to your
career.

N.R.: One thing I feel- sorry.

J.C.: Like, you're not, you're not measured
on some,

like, benchmark against other, there's no
like, programming test,

like, program this thing in thirty-seven minutes.
It's like,

oh, Jen can do it in thirty-six minutes. She's

smarter than you. Like, it, it doesn't matter
to

me.

N.R.: I did it in thirty-five, but.

J.C.: It's that CD degree. You can do it

in one minute.

N.R.: I, one thing that I think is really

important, is try to keep- I saw. Is to

try to keep novices from comparing themselves
against, like,

the quote on quote heroes. Like, it's really
easy

for somebody to say, like, oh, I see Steve

Clapnick submit, you know, I see these people
who

submit to open source all day long, and a

lot of the people who do that, that's actually

one way or another their job. And to compare

their output, their very public, very voluminous
output to

yours, when it's not really your job to do

that, is unfair to yourself, and a little
bit

unfair to them. But mostly unfair to yourself.
And

to try, I've seen, like, novice developers
get kind

of locked in that, that idea that they're
not

doing everything they could be doing. And
that's dangerous

for them. Like, you want them to be celebrating

the victories that they are doing and not
comparing

themselves with the things that they're not.
Sorry, what's?

AUDIENCE: Yes. So, what that brings to mind,
for

me, is [indecipherable - 00:13:04], one of
the concerns

that was brought up was this idea that we

were missing a lot of developers who are perhaps

gonna even do some harm in their first, you

know, first few gigs, perhaps.

N.R.: All of us do a lot of harm

in our first few gigs, right. Like. Yes.

AUDIENCE: So this question's for all of you.
I

wonder if, if teaching the next 'great' developers
is

even the right question to be asking. And
if

N.R.: So, OK. So, the question is whether
teaching

the next great developers is the right question,
and

if so what is? Great developers was my fault.

Don't blame them for calling this great developers.

J.C.: That's link bait.

N.R.: Yeah.

B.O.: And you're here.

N.R.: If I had only said, if I had

only said good developers, half of you would
be

off learning- teaching the next half-assed
developers.

J.C.: Yeah. I, I think one of the privileges

of working with these programs and people
that come

into our program and, and programs like all
these

people participate in is that they might not
be

great developers. And, like, Bree wants to
be a

full-time developer. In ten years, will Bree
be a

full time developer? I'm not so sure. But
will

she be doing something amazing in technology,
and like

probably be running a company? Will I be working

for her? Like, above zero change, you know.

Like, and so the people that, mostly, I guess

one of the things that surprises people about
our

program, and I think it's probably similar
for Dev

BootCamp, is most of our students are career
changers.

It's not their first career. And so they've
got

these years of experience about how to be
a

professional. They've got years of experience
in some domain,

whether it's finance or health or restaurants
or whatever

it is. And that experience is gonna be amazing

for what they do next, after their first couple

jobs, right.

Noel and I, we have these CS degrees. We're

like, one day gonna get thrown out of a

Ruby Conference. Like, marked and thrown out.

N.R.: Re-education.

J.C.: But those people, I'm excited to see,
like,

yes, they're gonna really mess up some projects
in

the short term. But what they do when they

get to the point of leading teams and starting

companies I think is, well, it's gonna be
really

cool.

J.M.: Yeah. I think that the question really
is,

what does great mean? And my, my definition
of

it is similar to what Jeff is describing,
is

that people who bring a really great diversity
of

experience and backgrounds and to, to kind
of enrich

the products that we're making. That's exciting.
And he's

right. In Dev BootCamp, we do have a lot

of people who have really unique backgrounds,
and have

some really cool perspectives that they bring
into things,

and are just, like, great people.

And those are people you want to work with

on teams, and they, you know, they just help

you make better things together. So that,
I'd like

to have that definition of great, and kind
of

tease out the, the potential in those people
who

have other things that they can bring to it,

and help them contribute that for making the
developers

they are.

B.O.: I really like both those answers, because
I

think one of the, the best things about programming

is that it's an awesome force multiplier on
something

else that you want to do. So rather than

being like, I want to be really amazing at

writing code, if you can say, I want to

do, I want to change lives in this way

or make this sort of thing, and programming
is

the super power that lets you do it harder

and faster, I think that's like, the best
way

to think about that.

I have a friend who has just enough programming

background, that at, he works at a bank with

a bunch of finance people, and everyone he
works

with, basically they massage Excel spreadsheets
all day. And

he has just enough programming background
to write VB

to do some of this massaging automatically.
And he

is, you know, the one-eyed man in the land

of the blind. Like, he is, there is, he

is revered, and people are blown away, because
he

can do these things.

And I think that's the perfect way to say,

rather than saying I'm gonna be amazing at
code

for code's sake, if you think, you know, I'm

gonna get good at using code as this amplifier,

as a tool for the other things I want

to do.

N.R.: What they used to say about journalism
school

is don't do journalism school as an undergraduate.
Learn

something, and then learn how to apply journalism
to

it. I think programming is very similar. Like,
learn

how to do something and then learn how to

apply programming to it.

One thing I have seen from both the, I've

met a number of Dev BootCamp and GSchool,
Jumpstart

graduates, and they do seem very enthusiastic
as a

group, as people who have, like, chosen something
and

gone through and succeeded in this challenging
program. They

tend to come out being, being very enthusiastic.

K.E.: You have to.

N.R.: Yeah.

K.E.: I mean, you spend eighty to ninety hours

a week.

N.R.: So the question is, how do we make

sure that the next generation of developers
has the

interpersonal skills to be leaders and, and
mentors within

the community.

L.A.: I don't know if you've noticed this
about

me. I'm kind of a perky person. I'm kind

of, you know, friendly, I hug a lot. When

I introduce myself at Girl Develop It classes,
I

always say, I wasn't doing this a year ago.

I don't get to say that anymore because it's

now been a year. I'm so proud of myself.

But, I tell them, when I tell them my

story, I say, I made this career transition.
I

went to Dev BootCamp. I made this choice.
And

I would not have been able to do this

without the assistance of my mentors, of my
friends,

of the teachers at Dev BootCamp who, Jen talked

me down from a ledge a couple times. It

was not easy. It was really difficult. And
I

preach that to them, and I tell them, I'm

here for you. Katie's here for you. We have

meet ups. We're your friends. We're your mentors.
We

are here. You should be here for the people

that you need help with. And we encourage
them

to help each other during class. So it's not

just something we say, do this, maybe, you
know,

in a year or a month or however long,

x days, until you become a developer.

It's do this right now. Do this in class.

Help this person next to you when they're
struggling.

J.M.: And, and, at Dev BootCamp, we actually
kind

of take it a bit further and formalize it.

So we actually have a portion of our curriculum

that's called Engineering Empathy. The students
all go through

guided sessions in feedback and communication
and, you know,

understanding themselves as, as kind of touchy-feely
as that

sounds. The goal is exactly what you described,
is

to get people to know how to communicate better,

know themselves better, have better team dynamics,
and just

be well-rounded individuals that know how
to connect with

other people. Whether it's on their teams
or clients

or customers, any of those sort of things
that

you need to be able to, to build really

good software.

We formalize that, we have sessions for it,
and

then we try to support structure around it.
Like

Liz describes, of all of us being on board

and all the instructors are there to kind
of,

to reinforce it as they go all the way

through the program.

B.T.: I would just add to that, specifically
to

your question about how do we foster this?
I

would say that, in, I am a very extroverted

person, and aside from that, I think it's
really

important when you, when you work with new
developers,

be in their business. Like, don't let them,
you

know, OK, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got this. I'm

just gonna go work over here on this thing,

or I'm gonna do a couple hours of code

school till you give me a task to do.

Because I think as new developers, no matter
how

extroverted we are or, there, there is still
a

little bit, that fear of, oh gosh. We're gonna

break production. Oh shit.

Or whatever it is. Or you know, maybe we're

just, we're too nervous to ask questions because
you

guys look really busy doing the real work.
So,

I would, I just think it's important, at least

for me, I mean, I like it when mentors

and people that I look up to are, they're

like in my business. They're like, OK, what
are

you doing? Let's talk about that. Let me shoulder

hawk you for a few. Let's pair program. I

think all of that is really important in fostering

new developers.

J.C.: Anybody in the room been a mentor for

a program like one of ours? So, number one,

want to give you tremendous shout outs, that
those

relationships are incredibly valuable for
our students. People like

Shawn had a mentor, a mentee in our program,

and like, Shawn changed that young man's life.
Like,

without a doubt. So, tremendous shout outs.

Fostering the interpersonal communication
I think is the most

valuable piece we can add, right. Like, the
code

you can get from a book. And how to

work with a team and how a team goes

wrong and right, you only get through experience.
And

so, that's like, with our program, we're fortunate
to

have a very long time. And so, they work

primarily in three week projects with groups
of four

people. And you learn all the hard lessons
of,

hopefully, some of those first projects that
you would

otherwise screw up for money, you screw up
on

your own time and your own money.

You see the team that has all the all-stars

and they go in with all the confidence, and

they're like, yeah, we've been doing this
Rails thing

for six weeks, we're gonna build a Backbone
frontend.

And we're like, yeah, don't do it. And they're

like, no, we're gonna do it. OK. And then

it all burns down, right.

Or, you see the team that is honestly kind

of mediocre with their skills, but they get
along

and they pair well together, and they communicate
well,

and then they end up delivering better software
than

the all-star team, and the all-star team is
like,

hey, wait a second. Like, we should talk to

each other and, like, figure stuff out. Hmm.
This

works better.

And, just getting to iterate on those problems
and

learn them yourself, not just, like, hear
it in

a conference talk and try to follow through.
We

do little things like lightning talks. I know
you

guys do lightning talks also. So, I, I like

to think that that has like, lead to like,

Bree's giving a talk tomorrow and a couple
of

your grads are giving talks and so forth.

R.N.: Sorry, next. Yeah. Go ahead.

So, so the question is, is does it scare

us that we're bringing in a bunch of people

into an industry that's horrible at onboarding
people.

J.C.: I heard there's a talk about crafting
your

own onboarding experience that's really phenomenal.

J.M.: I mean, it's a little scary, especially
as

somebody who has been an instructor, you really
care

a lot about those students, and they go out

into the world and it's a little bit like,

yeah, you're, you're sending your kid off
to school

or something like that. You don't know what's
gonna

happen.

But, you know, I'm not really sure how to

solve that problem other than just attack
it. And

so I think that if we can bring people,

or produce people that do know how to own

their own learning and know how to communicate
well,

then those are some of the best weapons we

have to improve the overall process for other
people

coming in. And hopefully we can also, for
those

of us who know some these challenges, can
provide

more structure and, and, you know, we, we
have

a placements team who works with companies
to hire

our grads and things like that. So, we, we

can build a structure that maybe can help
provide

more resources or help for the companies that
are,

are taking our grads, and just make it smoother

for everybody. And hopefully the more we do
that,

the better it gets.

B.O.: I'm sort of the opposite of scared of

bringing more people in. I think we desperately
need

to do it. Right now, at, at least what

I see, demand is so much higher than supply,

and that works out pretty well for us as

developers that already know what we're doing,
right, because

we're, we're very much in demand. The power
is

on our side right now. But if that demand

are supply are mismatched for too long, the
demand

will drop. It'll have to drop. And I, I

know someone who is a CTO for hire. And

so he works a lot of companies. And so

he had a start up that just got funded

and was like, OK. Now we're ready. Let's go

hire a Rails developer. And they couldn't.
They couldn't

find someone. They said, OK, let's not write
it

in Rails. We're gonna go somewhere else.

So, if we have this mismatch for too long,

I think it will be bad for us. And

so I think, if we've got this crazy giant

demand up top, we've got to, got to satisfy

it.

N.R.: Speaking of-

B.O.: And it'll be better in the long run.

N.R.: Speaking from the side of this of somebody

who onboards novices, I think that, I mean,
this

is a problem that, to some extent, is outside

of all of their control, right, as Jen was

alluding to. What we need to do on that,

on the, on the incoming, on the incoming side,

is understand that in some cases, the, where,
understand

where these students are coming from, that
the experiences

that they have had and the experiences they
haven't

had, and ideally put them in a situation where

they can be successful, and where we're matching
them

to expectations that are reasonable.

You know, I think a lot of the students,

I think that you guys would agree that, that

there are better situations for your students
to go

to, and worse situations for your students
to go

to, and you want them to go to a

place where there are going to be other p-

you don't want them to go to a place

where they're going to be the entire straw
holding

up, you know, the one straw holding up this

huge weight of stuff. You want them to go

to a place where they're going to be more

senior people who can put them in a situation

where they're gonna be successful.

And I do think we have to get better

at doing that, generally.

Creating senior developers is a whole different
ball. Jeff,

did you have a point you wanted to make?

J.C.: As far as companies that do and do

not have apprenticeships, I think of it really
as

evolution. Like, there are so many companies
that sit

around waiting to hire a senior engineer and
look

for six months and don't find any and all

that. And meanwhile, the company who brought
in apprentices,

they now have six months experience, and they're
delivering

probably, like, somebody with two years of
experience, if

they're doing it well. And the reality is,
if

your company does, in my opinion, does not
work

on bringing in young people, young in their
career,

you're gonna die. Like, you're just gonna
lose. Because

the teams that build up their own people keep

those people. Those people are tremendously
valuable six months,

a year, eighteen months in. And they'll just
beat

you.

N.R.: Dave, Dave Hoover had a theory at Optiva

that the goal of a, a small company was

to have people at every level. You have the

best novices, you have the best intermediate
juniors, you

have the best people right after that. You
don't

just have a bunch of seniors and a bunch

of novices. You have people, to the extent
that

you can have people at every step in between.

What's great about that is, everybody has
somebody who's

about six months ahead of them to point what

their next six months are gonna be like, and

everybody has somebody who's six months behind
them, that

they are an obvious and immediate, like, partner
for.

So if you can build up a business like

that, if you can build up a team like

that, that's, that's fantastic.

B.O.: We've embraced that like crazy. Like,
bringing in

apprentice level people. We have an apprentice
program. And

it's been huge for us. We've been able to

hire so many more awesome people than we would

have if we had just said, we're looking for

senior only. We're not willing to invest in
these

people and train them.

N.R.: So the question is, how do we get,

how do we get the people coming in to

set reasonable goals for what they can accomplish,
technically?

B.T.: I'll start. Well, after being a student
of

this gentleman, he's actually, I would say,
over the,

over the six months that I was school, to

that point, he was actually really good in
that

learning time about, like, oh. You think you
can

do this thing? Go ahead. Knock yourself out.
Right?

So, much like with children, I have a seven

year old, it's kind of like, you're in charge

of your own fun. You learn a lot by

being crushed by some of those, oh, this was

a lot harder than I thought it was gonna

be. So I think there's something important
about that.

In terms of at the work place, I'd, at

least where I work, you know, they're very
good

about, and, and they have a, a focus on

kind of onboarding, right. And so they're
very good

about, hey, we're going to help define these
goals

with you. We're gonna help ease you into the

code base. And we're gonna do that with smaller

sets of problems to solve. And we're not going

to place this burden on you for, get this

feature done by this exact time.

And so I think all of that is, is

really, really helpful. And the other thing
that I

think's really helpful and goes a little bit
back

to what we were talking about just a second

ago is, in terms of students, you know, even

in being novices, there's different levels
of that. And,

and people are different. And so I think that

the programs that do exist right now, Dev
BootCamp

and the other ones, I think one thing that's

really important and that was beneficial for
me especially,

was as I went through the interview process,
my

instructors were there with me through the
whole thing.

And they were really, really honest with me,
as

well as having conversations with employers,
about my ability.

And so, that helped, that honesty about, you
know,

where I'm at in my learning and the type

of learner that I am and the things that

I'm interested in, is beneficial so that I
don't

find myself in a work place where, you know,

that's all I'm gonna be is, sort of buried

under these goals or things that I can't,
you

know, where I can't really prosper.

L.A.: On that note, it's also important to
teach

people to reassess their goals and to be able

to take note of where they are and where

they expected to be, and maybe think about
why

they're not. I think that's also a very important

piece.

J.M.: Yeah. I just want to kind of, I

like, really both of those, and I like what

you're saying, too. Maybe it's a parent thing.
I

have an eight-year-old. And I feel the same
way,

where, I feel very strongly it's important
for people

to make mistakes and be able to learn from

them. And I don't think it's so much about

preventing them from, you know, trying to
scale back

the goals to prevent them from making any
mistakes,

but, creating an environment where it's safe
to do

that, and them helping them in figuring out
what

they can learn from it when they do that.

So that's kind of, in general, the philosophy
that

I like to ascribe to, and I think, Dev

BootCamp is in a little bit of a different

situation, where we don't have people as long
as

some of the other schools. We only have people

for nine weeks. So we don't have as much

time to do that, but I think we do

that in general, and then also the way we

structure the program starts with the basic
building blocks,

and then builds on top of them.

We're a Ruby on Rails training program, but
you

don't even get to Rails until your seventh
week

of the program. So, we're teaching the fundamentals
before

then. So I think if you start out with

the, the basic blocks and build up from there,

and also at the same time kind of create

this environment where it's OK to screw things
up,

and somebody's gonna help you figure out,
you know,

how to learn from that, or, as the two

things together make it a lot easier to understand

what you can achieve and how to do it.

J.C.: No, hold on man. I'm going. Hold on.

N.R.: I'm sorry. You can have your question
after

Jeff says something.

J.C.: So, TDD I heard is over.

N.R.: Dead.

J.C.: But, we teach it anyway.

N.R.: Not, not, not, not just over. Dead.
Dead.

J.C.: So we're old fashion. It's dead. Well,
we're

old fashioned. And so we, we teach TDD, and

it starts on day two, and I think that

the approach behind TDD is the same approach
behind

lean start up. And, like, breaking off incredibly
small

problems, getting feedback right away and
iterating on that.

And so by starting with TDD, as the means

to build software, and then we try, through
these

three week projects they work on in their
teams,

really take, like, a lean approach to delivering
it

early, adding on incremental features.

Well, first we let them try and build all

the features and deliver it day of, and it

all burns down and we're like, see. That sucks.

Don't do that again.

And, but, like, by, by starting with the tests,

and then applying that to the product, I think

it teaches you how to take an idea and

figure out, what is the essential component
here? Like,

whether, whether it's an aspiration for a
company I'm

gonna build, or just the goal for, I'm gonna

learn something. Like, it's critically important
to figure out,

like, what's the first step. And I think that's

the hardest part of any good idea.

N.R.: OK. Now you can ask your question.

J.C.: So I'm very involved in the interview
process

and do a lot of like, coaching with the

students and so forth. And, your technical
interviews are

a hot mess. Like, people have cargo culted
their

process from, like, two companies ago, and
you'll see,

sometimes, it, it makes absolutely no sense.
There is

a company that'll put, like, students through
six rounds

of interviews, and then say no. And I'm like,

do you understand how much of your own time

you've wasted here? Like, it's insane.

Specifically with the technical questions,
you'll see such a

broad range. People will be like, I have an

array. How do I pull out an element? And

it's like, really? Come on. And then there's
others,

we, we did have a student get asked, like,

are you familiar with binary trees? And he
said,

like, yeah. I've built a binary tree. And
they're

like, do you know, like the, the lookup efficiency

of something? And he's like, oh, you mean
like,

n log(n)? And it's like boom. Bomb dropped
on

you. Like, you didn't see that coming from
somebody

who's been doing it for six months, right.

The reality is that, code, like, everyone,
I guess

not everyone. You should agree that coding
on a

white board is dumb, right. I tell students
that

if somebody asks you to code on a white

board, tell them how do I run the tests?

And, like, question over.

But the, the piece about, like, how do they

learn? How do they solve problems? That is
incredibly

valuable. So, yeah. I, I think we need to

have a lot more conversation around how, as
teams

and companies, do we want to build up interview

processes that actually achieve the goals
and, and like

find the people that we want?

Because, from what I've seen, there's like.
There's no

understanding. There's kind of like, fear
and uncertainty about

it. We had a student this time ask, get

asked to sign an MVA about the interview process.

There's, it's not that interesting, bros.
Like, whatever it

is, it's not that interesting. So, I think
there's

a lot of work to be done there.

K.E.: I can just talk on a personal level

of, I had a really, well, I don't want

to say I had a bad technical interview. But

I want to speak to the good technical interview

that I had at the current company that I'm

with, and part of the reason why I chose

to go to that company is because of the

technical interview.

And, the interview I had was a take home

assignment. And this is one of the different
formats

you can do. I had a take home assignment

for three days to build an API. It was

my first API, and it was just an amazing

experience, in that, not only did I get to

learn something, as part of the interview,
I got

to see how accessible my manager would be,
and

then he was also able to judge, how did

I attack something that I didn't know? And
also,

what kind of questions that, did I ask? And

I think we each got a really good understanding

of what this type of relationship would be
like.

So that's just personal experience.

B.O.: So the, the process that we do I

think is actually pretty good. So we do have

a, a technical screen, which is sort of a

discussion of, how might you build this? How
might

you build that? But the real meat of the

interview is, in person pairing in the office.
A

full day. And you work on real stuff. Real

client work. Real open source work. Whatever
people would

actually normally be doing. And you sit next
to

somebody. And I like that a lot.

You know, you can run the tests. It's not

a, a fake, contrived problem. You can see,
also,

what it's like to sit next to somebody, and

it's cause there's, there's that social fit,
which is

so important, too. And so that, the white
boarding

thing, I agree. That needs to die, for sure.

And, you know, let's move more towards pairing
and

seeing what people are actually like on real
stuff

that you're working on.

J.C.: I forgot to mention one of my favorite

interviews that I ever saw, that you reminded
me

of, was ThoughtWorks asks you to create a
code

sample, or, like, solve a sample assignment
and submit

it. You have, like, a week, or something along

those lines. And then when you get into the

in person interview, what you do is sit down

with an engineer and pair on refactoring your
submission

to the assignment.

And so they get to see a lot of

great things that way. Like, how do you understand

that you, that you wrote? Did you actually
write

it? You know. Like, and how do you think

about refactoring. Do you go, like, what it
works?

Why would I change it? You know. Or, do

you understand how to restructure, abstract
objects, abstract methods.

I thought it was awesome.

N.R.: We do something like that too, while
we're

sharing, we've done that before. I think we
have

time for one more question.

B.O.: That guy's had his hand up like the

whole time.

N.R.: OK. So I will, I will go with

you. I hope it's a good question. We actually,

we're last. I have no place to go, I

have no place to go after this. But they

may stop recording us.

After dark.

AUDIENCE: [indecipherable]

L.A.: We spent a lot of time getting women

familiar with technical concepts and comfortable
talking about technical

concepts so they can take on more technical
roles.

Not necessarily as an engineer, but perhaps
as a

product manager, instead of doing project
management. And, that's

a subtle difference to us, but it's a huge

difference to them. It's a world of difference.
It's

more technical responsibility. They're more
comfortable with their knowledge.

And so, my goal, teaching people, is not to

get them to be x, it's to get them

to whatever their x happiness will be. I love

what I do, but that may not be right

for them. I want to help them in any

way that I can to get to the technical

career that they want to have, that will work

for them. And whatever resources I have, I
will

just like waterfall at their face. So.

J.C.: It's one of the questions I really try

and watch out for in students, or applicants,
at

that stage, is do you want to be a

professional developer? And if the answer
is no, please

don't come. Because it's a tremendous waste
of time.

Like, spending twenty-seven weeks to prepare
for a job

you don't want makes no sense. And I redirect

them, like, you're a lot better off, like,
going

to Dev BootCamp, and you can come out and

like, you have some programming skills and
you can

reappropriate those into a management position,
in a project

position if you want to. It makes a lot

more sense.

J.M.: Yeah. I'll, I'll just add to that. That,

I think that, sometimes even Dev BootCamp
is a

little too intense for that, just because
most of

the people, like, it's still hard to like
quit

your job for nine weeks if you're just kind

of doing it to, to pivot. But it is,

it's less intense, or it might be a little

bit easier. And we do have people who go

through who want to apply it to, maybe, a,

a certain area that isn't just being a straight

up developer. But I think, like, Liz was talking

about, things like Girl Develop It and other
organizations

that are working on really reaching out to
people,

and there's lots of them. And they have lots

of different focuses. But I think that's where
they

really come into play, is that just opening
these

doors, and you get to choose where you go

after that.

You know, you kind of just go, maybe a

door is the wrong word, but more of a

gateway. And, so then you can go in many

directions after that. So, I think that these
are

compliments, not nec- they're not all necessarily
the same

thing. We kind of have a spectrum of different

organizations, and they compliment each other
really well.

The really nice thing about just being, reaching
out

and letting people choose where they want
to go,

maybe they don't know what they want and they

don't know what's out there. I know, you know,

as I was growing up, I didn't even have

the internet, you know. Web, being a web application

developer didn't even exist. So I had no idea

until I was probably like in my early twenties

that maybe this might exist and maybe I can

start working towards it.

And there are still, and that was kind of

a time thing for me. But there are many

people who don't have access to the opp- to

the kind of opportunities that we do, and
so

just being able to give them more accessible
ways

to see what is out there, might be able

to say, oh, well maybe I actually do want

to do that. And then they can take one

of these other programs.

N.R.: Yeah. Things like CodeSchool and Rails
for Zombies

and stuff also have a place in that, too.

You get, you get a certain amount, enough
knowledge

to understand. You have to have enough. There
are

some positions where all you need to know
is

you need to know when your technical person
is

totally bull shitting you. And that, that's,
those kinds

of things move to that, go to speak to

that.

I am obligated to tell you that we're at

time. I, I don't have any place to go.

I don't know about you guys. So, if people

have questions, I'm willing to, with whoever
wants, continue

to answer questions. If you have some place,
if

you guys have places to go, that's fine. But

first, just a round of applause for the panel.

Thank you guys all for showing up. And, thank

you for coming.