1 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:18,050 NOEL RAPPIN: Hey everybody. 2 00:00:18,050 --> 00:00:18,940 I think we'll get started. 3 00:00:18,940 --> 00:00:20,200 We've got a lot of people on here who 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,260 are all gonna wanna talk and we don't have 5 00:00:22,260 --> 00:00:25,610 that much time. So, I'm gonna quickly introduce, 6 00:00:25,610 --> 00:00:27,110 this is, we're doing a panel here on teaching 7 00:00:27,110 --> 00:00:29,900 the next great developers. I have a panel of 8 00:00:29,900 --> 00:00:32,009 experts here. We'll let them briefly introduce 9 00:00:32,009 --> 00:00:34,360 themselves, and then we will get on with it. 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,900 So, I'm Noel Rappin. I'm a Table XI senior 11 00:00:37,900 --> 00:00:40,860 developer, and to some extent I'll be representing traditional 12 00:00:40,860 --> 00:00:43,080 CS education, if that ever comes up at any 13 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,480 point over the next forty minutes, which I'm sure 14 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:50,190 nobody would ever bash traditional CS education in, in 15 00:00:50,190 --> 00:00:55,350 this forum. So, OK. First up, we got Jeff. 16 00:00:55,350 --> 00:00:56,400 We also only have two microphones so you guys 17 00:00:56,410 --> 00:00:58,980 are gonna pass them around. 18 00:00:58,980 --> 00:01:00,800 JEFF CASIMIR: Hi. My name is Jeff Casimir. I 19 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,680 run a company called JumpstartLab, and most recently started 20 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,610 up a training program called Turing, Turing School of 21 00:01:06,610 --> 00:01:07,380 Software and Design. 22 00:01:07,380 --> 00:01:09,680 N.R.: I put 'labs' up there. I got it 23 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:10,900 wrong. 24 00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:11,980 J.C.: It's all right. I'll just call it Table 25 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:12,800 X. 26 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,300 BREE THOMAS: Hi. I'm Bree Thomas, and I'm a 27 00:01:16,310 --> 00:01:19,899 developer with a company named, called iTriage. And a 28 00:01:19,899 --> 00:01:23,899 recent grad of this guy's school. 29 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:25,940 JEN MEYERS: Hi. My name is Jen Meyers, and 30 00:01:25,950 --> 00:01:27,789 I am part of the team at Dev BootCamp 31 00:01:27,789 --> 00:01:29,369 here in Chicago. 32 00:01:30,220 --> 00:01:31,780 N.R.: Jen is filling in at the last minute 33 00:01:31,789 --> 00:01:33,649 for Dave Hoover, who couldn't make it due to 34 00:01:33,649 --> 00:01:35,209 a family emergency. 35 00:01:36,940 --> 00:01:39,380 LIZ ABENANTE: I'm Liz Abenante. I am a developer 36 00:01:39,390 --> 00:01:42,509 at Instructure and I also co-lead the Girl Develop 37 00:01:42,509 --> 00:01:45,030 It chapter here in Chicago with this gal. 38 00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:49,100 KATHRIN EXLINE: Hi, my name is. Is. Just kidding. 39 00:01:49,110 --> 00:01:52,780 Is it ready? My name is Katie Exline. You 40 00:01:52,780 --> 00:01:57,509 can call me Katie. I am the co-leader of 41 00:01:57,509 --> 00:02:00,580 Girl Develop It, Chicago. Started in Girl Develop It 42 00:02:00,580 --> 00:02:03,580 with Girl Develop It, Columbus with that girl. And 43 00:02:03,580 --> 00:02:06,770 I'm currently a software engineer at a company called 44 00:02:06,770 --> 00:02:07,910 Fooda. 600 West. 45 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:10,820 BEN ORENSTEIN: Hi. I'm Ben. I work at ThoughtBot 46 00:02:10,830 --> 00:02:13,420 in Boston. I run our program for training developers 47 00:02:13,420 --> 00:02:15,950 there called Learn. And I write code and talk 48 00:02:15,950 --> 00:02:17,750 to people and do things like this. 49 00:02:17,750 --> 00:02:21,410 N.R.: So, I'm gonna. So, I want to start 50 00:02:21,410 --> 00:02:23,650 this off by, so, we have a couple of 51 00:02:23,650 --> 00:02:27,319 different kinds of programs here represented. We have two 52 00:02:27,319 --> 00:02:29,760 different boot camps that are sim- somewhat similar in 53 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:31,579 structure, but different in length. We have the Girl 54 00:02:31,579 --> 00:02:35,019 Develop It, which is more shorter interventions aimed at 55 00:02:35,019 --> 00:02:37,989 bringing novices into the, into the field, and we 56 00:02:37,989 --> 00:02:42,730 have online, online inter- somewhat more in-depth online interventions. 57 00:02:42,730 --> 00:02:45,170 And, I guess, maybe, what I want to start 58 00:02:45,170 --> 00:02:49,069 with is, what is, what do you think is 59 00:02:49,069 --> 00:02:53,239 the most important part that you, in your program, 60 00:02:53,239 --> 00:02:55,349 bring to teaching a novice developer, and how do 61 00:02:55,349 --> 00:02:59,709 you think that that fits towards bringing in the 62 00:02:59,709 --> 00:03:04,920 next generation of developers? To start with. Anybody can 63 00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:05,239 feel free. Jen's got the mic. 64 00:03:05,239 --> 00:03:05,340 J.M.: I've got the mic. OK. I'll go for 65 00:03:05,340 --> 00:03:05,760 that. 66 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,549 N.R.: So what's the most, what's the most important 67 00:03:08,549 --> 00:03:10,760 thing at Dev BootCamp. If, if you were to 68 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,530 say that a Dev BootCamp boot came out of 69 00:03:13,530 --> 00:03:17,159 there knowing one or two things, like what, what's 70 00:03:17,159 --> 00:03:19,120 the most important thing that you try to impart? 71 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,060 J.M.: Honestly, I think the most important thing that 72 00:03:21,060 --> 00:03:23,819 we try to foster is just being able to 73 00:03:23,819 --> 00:03:27,629 love and learning how to learn. And really being 74 00:03:27,629 --> 00:03:30,879 able to carry themselves on and our, our goal 75 00:03:30,879 --> 00:03:34,930 is to really produce people who know enough about 76 00:03:34,930 --> 00:03:36,599 Ruby on Rails to get a job where they 77 00:03:36,599 --> 00:03:38,719 can continue to learn, and that they have the 78 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:41,920 tools and the, the muscles built up, that they 79 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:43,769 know how to keep learning on their own, and 80 00:03:43,769 --> 00:03:45,859 keep exploring and finding out new things. 81 00:03:45,859 --> 00:03:47,469 So, it's a little bit meta, but I really 82 00:03:47,469 --> 00:03:49,189 do feel like that's one of the things that 83 00:03:49,189 --> 00:03:50,689 is our main goal, to make sure that people 84 00:03:50,689 --> 00:03:52,510 can continue learning for the rest of their careers 85 00:03:52,510 --> 00:03:53,680 and lives. 86 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,780 J.C.: Kind of a similar vein, I would say 87 00:03:58,780 --> 00:04:02,530 the most important outcome for students is understanding really 88 00:04:02,530 --> 00:04:06,310 how to take difficult technical problems and turn them 89 00:04:06,310 --> 00:04:09,529 into sets of small, still difficult but more manageable 90 00:04:09,529 --> 00:04:12,510 technical problems. And we happen to do that with 91 00:04:12,510 --> 00:04:16,310 Ruby on Rails, but I'm, it's really validating when 92 00:04:16,310 --> 00:04:18,290 we see students go into jobs where they do 93 00:04:18,290 --> 00:04:20,750 JavaScript full time, or iOS full time, and they're 94 00:04:20,750 --> 00:04:23,710 still able to apply all those same patterns to 95 00:04:23,710 --> 00:04:26,360 a different language and framework and so forth. 96 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,170 L.A.: And Girl Develop It comes from a slightly 97 00:04:28,170 --> 00:04:31,070 different perspective, because we work with complete novices in 98 00:04:31,070 --> 00:04:32,949 a wide range of classes, and we're just now 99 00:04:32,949 --> 00:04:35,349 starting to get into programming here in Chicago with 100 00:04:35,349 --> 00:04:37,970 our gals. But, I think the most important thing 101 00:04:37,970 --> 00:04:40,889 that I've found teaching these students is how to 102 00:04:40,889 --> 00:04:42,960 ask questions and where to ask them. Who to 103 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,639 ask, what kind of responses are good responses, and 104 00:04:45,639 --> 00:04:47,380 what kind of responses are terrible and you should 105 00:04:47,380 --> 00:04:50,620 ignore them because they're from terrible people. 106 00:04:50,620 --> 00:04:55,440 B.O.: So, this is actually something that I think 107 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,110 that it's important for all levels that I'm working 108 00:04:58,110 --> 00:05:01,289 on myself, honestly, is a willingness to admit you 109 00:05:01,289 --> 00:05:04,030 don't understand something. There's, I, there's this phenomenon I've 110 00:05:04,030 --> 00:05:06,340 seen in developing, in particular, where, because it's an 111 00:05:06,340 --> 00:05:09,960 intellectual-based activity, we have this really strong impulse to 112 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:11,669 always act like we know what's going on and 113 00:05:11,669 --> 00:05:13,400 we understand what people are saying. 114 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,639 And I've tried really hard to develop in myself 115 00:05:15,639 --> 00:05:17,120 the ability to be like, I did not follow 116 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,210 that. I don't understand what's going on. And I 117 00:05:19,210 --> 00:05:21,539 think more of that is really good for the 118 00:05:21,539 --> 00:05:23,979 world. I think, I've seen people, I've seen myself 119 00:05:23,979 --> 00:05:25,669 do it, too, where you sort of fake it. 120 00:05:25,669 --> 00:05:27,220 Where it's like, oh, are you familiar with this? 121 00:05:27,220 --> 00:05:29,150 Yeah. I mean, I know I should be, so 122 00:05:29,150 --> 00:05:33,090 therefore I'm gonna say yes. And that definitely, that 123 00:05:33,090 --> 00:05:34,680 hurts you. Like, you cheat yourself out of that 124 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,180 immediate learning, and you cheat, you know, your, your 125 00:05:37,180 --> 00:05:38,610 colleague or the person you're talking to out of 126 00:05:38,610 --> 00:05:39,789 being able to trust you when they find out 127 00:05:39,789 --> 00:05:41,580 you weren't telling the truth. And there's just all 128 00:05:41,580 --> 00:05:43,729 this negative impacts from that. 129 00:05:43,729 --> 00:05:48,289 N.R.: So, actually. Let's. I have a, I have 130 00:05:48,289 --> 00:05:49,900 a sort of jumble. Do you guys have questions 131 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:51,860 in the audience? Like, I have a couple of 132 00:05:51,860 --> 00:05:54,220 prepared questions that are gonna be kind of vague, 133 00:05:54,220 --> 00:05:56,030 but if you guys have questions in the audience, 134 00:05:56,030 --> 00:06:00,550 yes, no, maybe? Then we, this would be, this 135 00:06:00,550 --> 00:06:02,720 would be, I think, more fruitful if you guys 136 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,479 com- if we come from there. 137 00:06:05,479 --> 00:06:10,050 AUDIENCE: I think everyone thinks they're terrible at programming 138 00:06:10,050 --> 00:06:11,669 when they start, so how do you help people 139 00:06:11,669 --> 00:06:12,639 N.R.: So the question is, how do you help 140 00:06:12,639 --> 00:06:15,050 people build confidence, given that everybody thinks they're terrible 141 00:06:15,050 --> 00:06:17,680 when they start, or possibly for several years after 142 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,490 they've started? 143 00:06:19,490 --> 00:06:23,220 B.O.: I love that question. Did, you repeated it, 144 00:06:23,220 --> 00:06:23,669 right? Yeah. 145 00:06:23,669 --> 00:06:24,110 N.R.: Yes. 146 00:06:24,110 --> 00:06:26,669 B.O.: Because I still struggle with believing that I 147 00:06:26,669 --> 00:06:28,539 am a good programmer, and I think this happens 148 00:06:28,539 --> 00:06:31,060 to everybody, is, there's this impostor syndrome, and I 149 00:06:31,060 --> 00:06:31,789 think everybody has. Wow. 150 00:06:31,789 --> 00:06:33,520 N.R.: Sorry. I'm just going back in the slides. 151 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:39,169 B.O.: There we go. That's OK. Shwoo. It still 152 00:06:39,169 --> 00:06:41,310 kind of blows my mind when people think nice 153 00:06:41,310 --> 00:06:43,550 things about me. And I think that impostor syndrome 154 00:06:43,550 --> 00:06:45,620 is, like, is very prevalent. And, again, we're in 155 00:06:45,620 --> 00:06:50,550 a intellectual based field, again, so I try to 156 00:06:50,550 --> 00:06:53,090 be, like, humility, I think, is my answer to 157 00:06:53,090 --> 00:06:55,229 that. Like, I try to be humble myself, because 158 00:06:55,229 --> 00:06:57,710 I've had those own feelings of impostor syndrome, of 159 00:06:57,710 --> 00:06:59,180 like, not even believing that I know what I'm 160 00:06:59,180 --> 00:07:01,240 doing. And so, I know that's just amplified a 161 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,539 thousand fold when you're brand new and everything's super 162 00:07:03,539 --> 00:07:06,060 confusing. So when I've done stuff, particularly with like, 163 00:07:06,060 --> 00:07:09,349 really new people, like a RailsBridge type workshop, I 164 00:07:09,349 --> 00:07:11,759 like to like, open by saying, like. Don't worry. 165 00:07:11,759 --> 00:07:14,830 The state of being confused and like, this should 166 00:07:14,830 --> 00:07:17,180 work but it doesn't work. That is the normal 167 00:07:17,180 --> 00:07:19,659 state of the working programmer. 168 00:07:19,659 --> 00:07:21,460 That's like, how it is. And so, it's not 169 00:07:21,460 --> 00:07:23,939 you. It's never you. It's that this is hard 170 00:07:23,939 --> 00:07:25,550 and it's always gonna be like that. So, hopefully 171 00:07:25,550 --> 00:07:27,150 you like it. 172 00:07:27,150 --> 00:07:31,389 R.N.: Despair is what we teach. Long term despair. 173 00:07:31,389 --> 00:07:34,360 J.M.: Yeah, I was gonna, to back-track a little 174 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,780 bit on what you were saying, you know, we, 175 00:07:36,780 --> 00:07:38,180 as Liz mentioned, we deal with a lot of 176 00:07:38,180 --> 00:07:40,229 people who are just starting out. So, actually, a 177 00:07:40,229 --> 00:07:44,569 lot of them aren't, they're not faking it, and 178 00:07:44,569 --> 00:07:47,240 what we're working with, they think they're totally incapable 179 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:48,919 of learning it. You know, on the, on the 180 00:07:48,919 --> 00:07:52,189 reverse side. So, there's a few things that we 181 00:07:52,189 --> 00:07:53,930 do in order to make sure that they feel 182 00:07:53,930 --> 00:07:58,319 comfortable is, for one, we make sure to encourage 183 00:07:58,319 --> 00:08:01,370 them to ask questions and do not scoff when 184 00:08:01,370 --> 00:08:04,969 they ask any sort of question, because then we're 185 00:08:04,969 --> 00:08:07,889 validating them and saying, that is a totally valid 186 00:08:07,889 --> 00:08:10,069 question, and it's OK if you don't know that. 187 00:08:10,069 --> 00:08:11,889 And we may not even have the answer. So, 188 00:08:11,889 --> 00:08:14,000 that type of, like, open discussion, being able to 189 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:15,610 ask questions is great. 190 00:08:15,610 --> 00:08:18,729 And then also, just providing positive feedback. Actually, constructive 191 00:08:18,729 --> 00:08:22,650 feedback. Both positive and even if it's constructive, providing 192 00:08:22,650 --> 00:08:24,689 it in a positive way, I think really helps 193 00:08:24,689 --> 00:08:25,710 build peoples' confidence. 194 00:08:25,710 --> 00:08:29,550 J.C.: Smart. Cause that's what I was thinking. Giving 195 00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:31,330 a set up where you can give somebody a 196 00:08:31,330 --> 00:08:34,200 small, a small, quick win, that they've done something 197 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,299 that they could point to, I think is helpful 198 00:08:36,299 --> 00:08:38,340 in my experience as a teacher. 199 00:08:38,340 --> 00:08:40,780 B.T.: So I'll just add to that. As one 200 00:08:40,780 --> 00:08:43,780 who spent six months in a course, I wasn't 201 00:08:43,780 --> 00:08:46,880 getting it at all, for like, the first three 202 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,520 months. And it was brutal. And I consider myself 203 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,830 someone who's actually, I never had any question about 204 00:08:53,830 --> 00:08:58,590 my ability to learn something new. And so, I 205 00:08:58,590 --> 00:09:01,390 think, I think in terms of what's important, from 206 00:09:01,390 --> 00:09:04,070 a student perspective, when you're, when you're in a 207 00:09:04,070 --> 00:09:10,020 course, is having instructors in an environment where they 208 00:09:10,020 --> 00:09:13,570 can adapt to your learning style, so they can 209 00:09:13,570 --> 00:09:15,010 understand, they can look at you and they can 210 00:09:15,010 --> 00:09:17,350 understand, OK, here's where you're having problems. 211 00:09:17,350 --> 00:09:20,300 And, change course if that's what's required. Because I 212 00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:21,960 can say that that was my experience. I kind 213 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,080 of went, oh my gosh. I still have no 214 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:25,900 idea what's going on and we're halfway through the 215 00:09:25,900 --> 00:09:28,590 course and it's not clicking. And I kept getting 216 00:09:28,590 --> 00:09:30,520 the, it's gonna be OK. It's gonna be OK. 217 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,120 No. It's not OK. I'm half way through, and 218 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:34,830 I spent all this money and there's only three 219 00:09:34,830 --> 00:09:39,240 months left. And essentially, the instructors, you know, at 220 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,830 least with, with Jeff's group, they took a step 221 00:09:42,830 --> 00:09:45,320 back and said, OK, let's focus on the fundamentals. 222 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,270 And, let's do some smaller steps, and let's do 223 00:09:48,270 --> 00:09:51,480 that work with you, and that was extraordinarily helpful 224 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,350 for me. And, by the time I graduated, I 225 00:09:55,350 --> 00:09:58,560 can honestly say I finally felt like, oh, I'm 226 00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:00,870 a developer now. I may not be, you know, 227 00:10:00,870 --> 00:10:03,900 a great one, but I like, feel comfortable calling 228 00:10:03,900 --> 00:10:05,530 myself a developer now. 229 00:10:05,530 --> 00:10:07,790 L.A.: And in terms of not seeing yourself as 230 00:10:07,790 --> 00:10:10,250 terrible, you're not terrible if you do one thing 231 00:10:10,250 --> 00:10:14,190 right. Like, in programming. If you get that image 232 00:10:14,190 --> 00:10:17,190 to render on your ht- your very first html 233 00:10:17,190 --> 00:10:20,490 page, but you cannot figure out freaking CSS for 234 00:10:20,490 --> 00:10:22,870 the life of you, it doesn't matter because you 235 00:10:22,870 --> 00:10:25,960 got that one thing, that tiny victory, reinforcing those 236 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,240 tiny victories, celebrating those tiny victories, and using those 237 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,580 as moments to break away from the frustrations really 238 00:10:32,580 --> 00:10:34,800 helps break students out of that pattern of, I'm 239 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,090 terrible. I don't get this. It's really hard. 240 00:10:37,090 --> 00:10:41,980 J.C.: I think the, the whole conversation around, like, 241 00:10:41,980 --> 00:10:44,670 impostor syndrome, I found really interesting. I kind of 242 00:10:44,670 --> 00:10:47,390 want to ban that phrase. Like, I will probably 243 00:10:47,390 --> 00:10:50,130 stop saying it, because I, I think it's just 244 00:10:50,130 --> 00:10:53,890 a part of programming. Thinking, or perhaps knowing that 245 00:10:53,890 --> 00:10:56,510 you're not good at programmer. And, for me, when 246 00:10:56,510 --> 00:10:59,370 I first started, our first program as Hungry Academy 247 00:10:59,370 --> 00:11:01,230 in D.C., and I, when I laid out the 248 00:11:01,230 --> 00:11:03,620 course plan, there were pieces in there that I 249 00:11:03,620 --> 00:11:05,140 did not know how to do and had never 250 00:11:05,140 --> 00:11:07,410 done in a project. And I was so nervous 251 00:11:07,410 --> 00:11:08,900 and I was like, oh, we're gonna. I'm gonna 252 00:11:08,900 --> 00:11:09,770 be exposed. 253 00:11:09,770 --> 00:11:12,010 Right? But I had this co-teacher and I was 254 00:11:12,010 --> 00:11:14,450 like, he'll know. He's a real consultant and, like, 255 00:11:14,450 --> 00:11:16,680 he knows how to do these things. It'll be 256 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:18,910 OK. And, I think what's happened to me over 257 00:11:18,910 --> 00:11:21,720 that time is just realizing that, like, I don't 258 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,160 give a shit. Like, if I'm not the best 259 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,590 programmer - I'm sure Ben's a much better programmer 260 00:11:26,590 --> 00:11:30,900 than I. So what? Like, it, it, it, probably, 261 00:11:30,900 --> 00:11:33,140 you know. And so, I'm fortunate, you know, through 262 00:11:33,140 --> 00:11:35,610 things like RailsConf to talk with amazing people and 263 00:11:35,610 --> 00:11:38,100 people are like, oh, you know, Jose Valim, like, 264 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:40,670 building Elixir. Poof. Like, no idea. I can't even 265 00:11:40,670 --> 00:11:42,980 understand Elixir, much less how to build it. 266 00:11:42,980 --> 00:11:44,880 And, he's a much better developer, or, much better 267 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,980 programmer than I am. But, who cares? Is really, 268 00:11:48,980 --> 00:11:51,400 I think, something that's valuable to your career. 269 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:52,470 N.R.: One thing I feel- sorry. 270 00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:54,050 J.C.: Like, you're not, you're not measured on some, 271 00:11:54,050 --> 00:11:56,870 like, benchmark against other, there's no like, programming test, 272 00:11:56,870 --> 00:11:58,880 like, program this thing in thirty-seven minutes. It's like, 273 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:00,550 oh, Jen can do it in thirty-six minutes. She's 274 00:12:00,550 --> 00:12:02,690 smarter than you. Like, it, it doesn't matter to 275 00:12:02,690 --> 00:12:03,040 me. 276 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,490 N.R.: I did it in thirty-five, but. 277 00:12:05,490 --> 00:12:08,640 J.C.: It's that CD degree. You can do it 278 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:09,000 in one minute. 279 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:09,810 N.R.: I, one thing that I think is really 280 00:12:09,810 --> 00:12:13,510 important, is try to keep- I saw. Is to 281 00:12:13,510 --> 00:12:17,300 try to keep novices from comparing themselves against, like, 282 00:12:17,300 --> 00:12:19,410 the quote on quote heroes. Like, it's really easy 283 00:12:19,410 --> 00:12:23,100 for somebody to say, like, oh, I see Steve 284 00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:25,130 Clapnick submit, you know, I see these people who 285 00:12:25,130 --> 00:12:26,700 submit to open source all day long, and a 286 00:12:26,700 --> 00:12:28,200 lot of the people who do that, that's actually 287 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,820 one way or another their job. And to compare 288 00:12:30,820 --> 00:12:34,960 their output, their very public, very voluminous output to 289 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,450 yours, when it's not really your job to do 290 00:12:37,450 --> 00:12:40,200 that, is unfair to yourself, and a little bit 291 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,140 unfair to them. But mostly unfair to yourself. And 292 00:12:42,140 --> 00:12:45,820 to try, I've seen, like, novice developers get kind 293 00:12:45,820 --> 00:12:48,310 of locked in that, that idea that they're not 294 00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:51,670 doing everything they could be doing. And that's dangerous 295 00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:54,480 for them. Like, you want them to be celebrating 296 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,440 the victories that they are doing and not comparing 297 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,100 themselves with the things that they're not. Sorry, what's? 298 00:12:59,100 --> 00:13:02,500 AUDIENCE: Yes. So, what that brings to mind, for 299 00:13:02,500 --> 00:13:05,520 me, is [indecipherable - 00:13:04], one of the concerns 300 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,910 that was brought up was this idea that we 301 00:13:08,910 --> 00:13:12,310 were missing a lot of developers who are perhaps 302 00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:15,700 gonna even do some harm in their first, you 303 00:13:15,700 --> 00:13:17,590 know, first few gigs, perhaps. 304 00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:19,100 N.R.: All of us do a lot of harm 305 00:13:19,100 --> 00:13:25,500 in our first few gigs, right. Like. Yes. 306 00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:31,660 AUDIENCE: So this question's for all of you. I 307 00:13:31,660 --> 00:13:32,300 wonder if, if teaching the next 'great' developers is 308 00:13:32,300 --> 00:13:32,630 even the right question to be asking. And if 309 00:13:32,630 --> 00:13:33,480 N.R.: So, OK. So, the question is whether teaching 310 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,210 the next great developers is the right question, and 311 00:13:35,210 --> 00:13:38,000 if so what is? Great developers was my fault. 312 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,300 Don't blame them for calling this great developers. 313 00:13:40,300 --> 00:13:41,540 J.C.: That's link bait. 314 00:13:41,540 --> 00:13:42,610 N.R.: Yeah. 315 00:13:42,610 --> 00:13:43,680 B.O.: And you're here. 316 00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:46,450 N.R.: If I had only said, if I had 317 00:13:46,450 --> 00:13:48,560 only said good developers, half of you would be 318 00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:50,860 off learning- teaching the next half-assed developers. 319 00:13:50,860 --> 00:13:54,450 J.C.: Yeah. I, I think one of the privileges 320 00:13:54,450 --> 00:13:58,170 of working with these programs and people that come 321 00:13:58,170 --> 00:14:01,190 into our program and, and programs like all these 322 00:14:01,190 --> 00:14:04,750 people participate in is that they might not be 323 00:14:04,750 --> 00:14:08,350 great developers. And, like, Bree wants to be a 324 00:14:08,350 --> 00:14:10,950 full-time developer. In ten years, will Bree be a 325 00:14:10,950 --> 00:14:13,070 full time developer? I'm not so sure. But will 326 00:14:13,070 --> 00:14:16,070 she be doing something amazing in technology, and like 327 00:14:16,070 --> 00:14:18,020 probably be running a company? Will I be working 328 00:14:18,020 --> 00:14:20,720 for her? Like, above zero change, you know. 329 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,150 Like, and so the people that, mostly, I guess 330 00:14:25,150 --> 00:14:26,540 one of the things that surprises people about our 331 00:14:26,540 --> 00:14:28,350 program, and I think it's probably similar for Dev 332 00:14:28,350 --> 00:14:31,830 BootCamp, is most of our students are career changers. 333 00:14:31,830 --> 00:14:34,190 It's not their first career. And so they've got 334 00:14:34,190 --> 00:14:36,150 these years of experience about how to be a 335 00:14:36,150 --> 00:14:38,870 professional. They've got years of experience in some domain, 336 00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:42,300 whether it's finance or health or restaurants or whatever 337 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:46,420 it is. And that experience is gonna be amazing 338 00:14:46,420 --> 00:14:49,010 for what they do next, after their first couple 339 00:14:49,010 --> 00:14:49,810 jobs, right. 340 00:14:49,810 --> 00:14:51,990 Noel and I, we have these CS degrees. We're 341 00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:53,190 like, one day gonna get thrown out of a 342 00:14:53,190 --> 00:14:56,880 Ruby Conference. Like, marked and thrown out. 343 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:57,900 N.R.: Re-education. 344 00:14:57,900 --> 00:15:00,180 J.C.: But those people, I'm excited to see, like, 345 00:15:00,180 --> 00:15:02,350 yes, they're gonna really mess up some projects in 346 00:15:02,350 --> 00:15:04,250 the short term. But what they do when they 347 00:15:04,250 --> 00:15:06,440 get to the point of leading teams and starting 348 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,000 companies I think is, well, it's gonna be really 349 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:08,340 cool. 350 00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:10,860 J.M.: Yeah. I think that the question really is, 351 00:15:10,860 --> 00:15:13,690 what does great mean? And my, my definition of 352 00:15:13,690 --> 00:15:15,760 it is similar to what Jeff is describing, is 353 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,650 that people who bring a really great diversity of 354 00:15:18,650 --> 00:15:22,090 experience and backgrounds and to, to kind of enrich 355 00:15:22,090 --> 00:15:25,350 the products that we're making. That's exciting. And he's 356 00:15:25,350 --> 00:15:26,700 right. In Dev BootCamp, we do have a lot 357 00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:29,920 of people who have really unique backgrounds, and have 358 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,670 some really cool perspectives that they bring into things, 359 00:15:32,670 --> 00:15:35,610 and are just, like, great people. 360 00:15:35,610 --> 00:15:37,180 And those are people you want to work with 361 00:15:37,180 --> 00:15:40,010 on teams, and they, you know, they just help 362 00:15:40,010 --> 00:15:42,490 you make better things together. So that, I'd like 363 00:15:42,490 --> 00:15:45,700 to have that definition of great, and kind of 364 00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:47,870 tease out the, the potential in those people who 365 00:15:47,870 --> 00:15:49,960 have other things that they can bring to it, 366 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,630 and help them contribute that for making the developers 367 00:15:52,630 --> 00:15:52,940 they are. 368 00:15:52,940 --> 00:15:55,250 B.O.: I really like both those answers, because I 369 00:15:55,250 --> 00:15:57,070 think one of the, the best things about programming 370 00:15:57,070 --> 00:15:59,580 is that it's an awesome force multiplier on something 371 00:15:59,580 --> 00:16:01,790 else that you want to do. So rather than 372 00:16:01,790 --> 00:16:03,160 being like, I want to be really amazing at 373 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,020 writing code, if you can say, I want to 374 00:16:05,020 --> 00:16:06,670 do, I want to change lives in this way 375 00:16:06,670 --> 00:16:08,770 or make this sort of thing, and programming is 376 00:16:08,770 --> 00:16:10,660 the super power that lets you do it harder 377 00:16:10,660 --> 00:16:12,610 and faster, I think that's like, the best way 378 00:16:12,610 --> 00:16:13,530 to think about that. 379 00:16:13,530 --> 00:16:15,180 I have a friend who has just enough programming 380 00:16:15,180 --> 00:16:17,320 background, that at, he works at a bank with 381 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,220 a bunch of finance people, and everyone he works 382 00:16:20,220 --> 00:16:23,730 with, basically they massage Excel spreadsheets all day. And 383 00:16:23,730 --> 00:16:27,470 he has just enough programming background to write VB 384 00:16:27,470 --> 00:16:30,070 to do some of this massaging automatically. And he 385 00:16:30,070 --> 00:16:32,530 is, you know, the one-eyed man in the land 386 00:16:32,530 --> 00:16:34,510 of the blind. Like, he is, there is, he 387 00:16:34,510 --> 00:16:36,770 is revered, and people are blown away, because he 388 00:16:36,770 --> 00:16:37,550 can do these things. 389 00:16:37,550 --> 00:16:39,110 And I think that's the perfect way to say, 390 00:16:39,110 --> 00:16:41,430 rather than saying I'm gonna be amazing at code 391 00:16:41,430 --> 00:16:43,180 for code's sake, if you think, you know, I'm 392 00:16:43,180 --> 00:16:46,290 gonna get good at using code as this amplifier, 393 00:16:46,290 --> 00:16:47,880 as a tool for the other things I want 394 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:48,120 to do. 395 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,930 N.R.: What they used to say about journalism school 396 00:16:49,930 --> 00:16:51,920 is don't do journalism school as an undergraduate. Learn 397 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,490 something, and then learn how to apply journalism to 398 00:16:54,490 --> 00:16:56,530 it. I think programming is very similar. Like, learn 399 00:16:56,530 --> 00:16:58,680 how to do something and then learn how to 400 00:16:58,680 --> 00:16:59,720 apply programming to it. 401 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,800 One thing I have seen from both the, I've 402 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,780 met a number of Dev BootCamp and GSchool, Jumpstart 403 00:17:04,780 --> 00:17:08,709 graduates, and they do seem very enthusiastic as a 404 00:17:08,709 --> 00:17:11,439 group, as people who have, like, chosen something and 405 00:17:11,439 --> 00:17:14,289 gone through and succeeded in this challenging program. They 406 00:17:14,289 --> 00:17:16,970 tend to come out being, being very enthusiastic. 407 00:17:16,970 --> 00:17:18,079 K.E.: You have to. 408 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:18,500 N.R.: Yeah. 409 00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:20,400 K.E.: I mean, you spend eighty to ninety hours 410 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,159 a week. 411 00:17:22,159 --> 00:17:23,939 N.R.: So the question is, how do we make 412 00:17:23,939 --> 00:17:25,929 sure that the next generation of developers has the 413 00:17:25,929 --> 00:17:30,860 interpersonal skills to be leaders and, and mentors within 414 00:17:30,860 --> 00:17:31,710 the community. 415 00:17:31,710 --> 00:17:33,440 L.A.: I don't know if you've noticed this about 416 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,250 me. I'm kind of a perky person. I'm kind 417 00:17:35,250 --> 00:17:38,210 of, you know, friendly, I hug a lot. When 418 00:17:38,210 --> 00:17:40,429 I introduce myself at Girl Develop It classes, I 419 00:17:40,429 --> 00:17:43,259 always say, I wasn't doing this a year ago. 420 00:17:43,259 --> 00:17:45,039 I don't get to say that anymore because it's 421 00:17:45,039 --> 00:17:48,200 now been a year. I'm so proud of myself. 422 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,570 But, I tell them, when I tell them my 423 00:17:50,570 --> 00:17:52,700 story, I say, I made this career transition. I 424 00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:55,049 went to Dev BootCamp. I made this choice. And 425 00:17:55,049 --> 00:17:56,799 I would not have been able to do this 426 00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:00,429 without the assistance of my mentors, of my friends, 427 00:18:00,429 --> 00:18:03,279 of the teachers at Dev BootCamp who, Jen talked 428 00:18:03,279 --> 00:18:05,330 me down from a ledge a couple times. It 429 00:18:05,330 --> 00:18:08,750 was not easy. It was really difficult. And I 430 00:18:08,750 --> 00:18:10,769 preach that to them, and I tell them, I'm 431 00:18:10,769 --> 00:18:12,820 here for you. Katie's here for you. We have 432 00:18:12,820 --> 00:18:15,370 meet ups. We're your friends. We're your mentors. We 433 00:18:15,370 --> 00:18:17,580 are here. You should be here for the people 434 00:18:17,580 --> 00:18:19,850 that you need help with. And we encourage them 435 00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:22,639 to help each other during class. So it's not 436 00:18:22,639 --> 00:18:25,080 just something we say, do this, maybe, you know, 437 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,419 in a year or a month or however long, 438 00:18:27,419 --> 00:18:30,029 x days, until you become a developer. 439 00:18:30,029 --> 00:18:32,460 It's do this right now. Do this in class. 440 00:18:32,460 --> 00:18:34,629 Help this person next to you when they're struggling. 441 00:18:34,629 --> 00:18:37,840 J.M.: And, and, at Dev BootCamp, we actually kind 442 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,779 of take it a bit further and formalize it. 443 00:18:39,779 --> 00:18:41,419 So we actually have a portion of our curriculum 444 00:18:41,419 --> 00:18:45,460 that's called Engineering Empathy. The students all go through 445 00:18:45,460 --> 00:18:51,159 guided sessions in feedback and communication and, you know, 446 00:18:51,159 --> 00:18:54,230 understanding themselves as, as kind of touchy-feely as that 447 00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:57,490 sounds. The goal is exactly what you described, is 448 00:18:57,490 --> 00:19:00,659 to get people to know how to communicate better, 449 00:19:00,659 --> 00:19:03,750 know themselves better, have better team dynamics, and just 450 00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:07,309 be well-rounded individuals that know how to connect with 451 00:19:07,309 --> 00:19:10,679 other people. Whether it's on their teams or clients 452 00:19:10,679 --> 00:19:12,919 or customers, any of those sort of things that 453 00:19:12,919 --> 00:19:14,789 you need to be able to, to build really 454 00:19:14,789 --> 00:19:16,049 good software. 455 00:19:16,049 --> 00:19:18,149 We formalize that, we have sessions for it, and 456 00:19:18,149 --> 00:19:20,720 then we try to support structure around it. Like 457 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,629 Liz describes, of all of us being on board 458 00:19:23,629 --> 00:19:25,950 and all the instructors are there to kind of, 459 00:19:25,950 --> 00:19:27,690 to reinforce it as they go all the way 460 00:19:27,690 --> 00:19:28,460 through the program. 461 00:19:28,460 --> 00:19:31,440 B.T.: I would just add to that, specifically to 462 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,429 your question about how do we foster this? I 463 00:19:33,429 --> 00:19:37,850 would say that, in, I am a very extroverted 464 00:19:37,850 --> 00:19:41,509 person, and aside from that, I think it's really 465 00:19:41,509 --> 00:19:45,169 important when you, when you work with new developers, 466 00:19:45,169 --> 00:19:48,980 be in their business. Like, don't let them, you 467 00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:51,480 know, OK, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got this. I'm 468 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,039 just gonna go work over here on this thing, 469 00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:54,950 or I'm gonna do a couple hours of code 470 00:19:54,950 --> 00:19:57,950 school till you give me a task to do. 471 00:19:57,950 --> 00:20:00,570 Because I think as new developers, no matter how 472 00:20:00,570 --> 00:20:03,840 extroverted we are or, there, there is still a 473 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,049 little bit, that fear of, oh gosh. We're gonna 474 00:20:06,049 --> 00:20:08,820 break production. Oh shit. 475 00:20:08,820 --> 00:20:11,149 Or whatever it is. Or you know, maybe we're 476 00:20:11,149 --> 00:20:13,860 just, we're too nervous to ask questions because you 477 00:20:13,860 --> 00:20:16,870 guys look really busy doing the real work. So, 478 00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:19,559 I would, I just think it's important, at least 479 00:20:19,559 --> 00:20:22,499 for me, I mean, I like it when mentors 480 00:20:22,499 --> 00:20:25,159 and people that I look up to are, they're 481 00:20:25,159 --> 00:20:26,909 like in my business. They're like, OK, what are 482 00:20:26,909 --> 00:20:30,059 you doing? Let's talk about that. Let me shoulder 483 00:20:30,059 --> 00:20:32,080 hawk you for a few. Let's pair program. I 484 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,789 think all of that is really important in fostering 485 00:20:34,789 --> 00:20:37,049 new developers. 486 00:20:37,049 --> 00:20:41,679 J.C.: Anybody in the room been a mentor for 487 00:20:41,679 --> 00:20:44,820 a program like one of ours? So, number one, 488 00:20:44,820 --> 00:20:47,490 want to give you tremendous shout outs, that those 489 00:20:47,490 --> 00:20:52,279 relationships are incredibly valuable for our students. People like 490 00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:54,919 Shawn had a mentor, a mentee in our program, 491 00:20:54,919 --> 00:20:58,340 and like, Shawn changed that young man's life. Like, 492 00:20:58,340 --> 00:21:03,090 without a doubt. So, tremendous shout outs. 493 00:21:03,090 --> 00:21:05,379 Fostering the interpersonal communication I think is the most 494 00:21:05,379 --> 00:21:08,240 valuable piece we can add, right. Like, the code 495 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,350 you can get from a book. And how to 496 00:21:10,350 --> 00:21:12,419 work with a team and how a team goes 497 00:21:12,419 --> 00:21:15,249 wrong and right, you only get through experience. And 498 00:21:15,249 --> 00:21:18,450 so, that's like, with our program, we're fortunate to 499 00:21:18,450 --> 00:21:21,059 have a very long time. And so, they work 500 00:21:21,059 --> 00:21:23,870 primarily in three week projects with groups of four 501 00:21:23,870 --> 00:21:27,799 people. And you learn all the hard lessons of, 502 00:21:27,799 --> 00:21:29,360 hopefully, some of those first projects that you would 503 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:31,889 otherwise screw up for money, you screw up on 504 00:21:31,889 --> 00:21:34,210 your own time and your own money. 505 00:21:34,210 --> 00:21:36,559 You see the team that has all the all-stars 506 00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:38,860 and they go in with all the confidence, and 507 00:21:38,860 --> 00:21:40,710 they're like, yeah, we've been doing this Rails thing 508 00:21:40,710 --> 00:21:42,769 for six weeks, we're gonna build a Backbone frontend. 509 00:21:42,769 --> 00:21:44,620 And we're like, yeah, don't do it. And they're 510 00:21:44,620 --> 00:21:46,399 like, no, we're gonna do it. OK. And then 511 00:21:46,399 --> 00:21:47,629 it all burns down, right. 512 00:21:47,629 --> 00:21:49,970 Or, you see the team that is honestly kind 513 00:21:49,970 --> 00:21:52,370 of mediocre with their skills, but they get along 514 00:21:52,370 --> 00:21:55,120 and they pair well together, and they communicate well, 515 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:56,820 and then they end up delivering better software than 516 00:21:56,820 --> 00:21:58,169 the all-star team, and the all-star team is like, 517 00:21:58,169 --> 00:22:00,539 hey, wait a second. Like, we should talk to 518 00:22:00,539 --> 00:22:02,779 each other and, like, figure stuff out. Hmm. This 519 00:22:02,779 --> 00:22:03,960 works better. 520 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,539 And, just getting to iterate on those problems and 521 00:22:07,539 --> 00:22:09,519 learn them yourself, not just, like, hear it in 522 00:22:09,519 --> 00:22:11,659 a conference talk and try to follow through. We 523 00:22:11,659 --> 00:22:14,399 do little things like lightning talks. I know you 524 00:22:14,399 --> 00:22:17,379 guys do lightning talks also. So, I, I like 525 00:22:17,379 --> 00:22:18,960 to think that that has like, lead to like, 526 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:20,590 Bree's giving a talk tomorrow and a couple of 527 00:22:20,590 --> 00:22:23,990 your grads are giving talks and so forth. 528 00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:28,730 R.N.: Sorry, next. Yeah. Go ahead. 529 00:22:28,730 --> 00:22:30,809 So, so the question is, is does it scare 530 00:22:30,809 --> 00:22:32,370 us that we're bringing in a bunch of people 531 00:22:32,370 --> 00:22:34,870 into an industry that's horrible at onboarding people. 532 00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:36,929 J.C.: I heard there's a talk about crafting your 533 00:22:36,929 --> 00:22:39,519 own onboarding experience that's really phenomenal. 534 00:22:39,519 --> 00:22:44,490 J.M.: I mean, it's a little scary, especially as 535 00:22:44,490 --> 00:22:46,999 somebody who has been an instructor, you really care 536 00:22:46,999 --> 00:22:48,509 a lot about those students, and they go out 537 00:22:48,509 --> 00:22:50,460 into the world and it's a little bit like, 538 00:22:50,460 --> 00:22:52,210 yeah, you're, you're sending your kid off to school 539 00:22:52,210 --> 00:22:56,269 or something like that. You don't know what's gonna 540 00:22:56,269 --> 00:22:56,840 happen. 541 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,429 But, you know, I'm not really sure how to 542 00:22:58,429 --> 00:23:01,090 solve that problem other than just attack it. And 543 00:23:01,090 --> 00:23:03,799 so I think that if we can bring people, 544 00:23:03,799 --> 00:23:06,289 or produce people that do know how to own 545 00:23:06,289 --> 00:23:10,120 their own learning and know how to communicate well, 546 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:11,659 then those are some of the best weapons we 547 00:23:11,659 --> 00:23:13,809 have to improve the overall process for other people 548 00:23:13,809 --> 00:23:16,999 coming in. And hopefully we can also, for those 549 00:23:16,999 --> 00:23:19,940 of us who know some these challenges, can provide 550 00:23:19,940 --> 00:23:22,330 more structure and, and, you know, we, we have 551 00:23:22,330 --> 00:23:24,559 a placements team who works with companies to hire 552 00:23:24,559 --> 00:23:27,220 our grads and things like that. So, we, we 553 00:23:27,220 --> 00:23:29,539 can build a structure that maybe can help provide 554 00:23:29,539 --> 00:23:32,389 more resources or help for the companies that are, 555 00:23:32,389 --> 00:23:34,259 are taking our grads, and just make it smoother 556 00:23:34,259 --> 00:23:36,480 for everybody. And hopefully the more we do that, 557 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:37,720 the better it gets. 558 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,889 B.O.: I'm sort of the opposite of scared of 559 00:23:39,889 --> 00:23:42,110 bringing more people in. I think we desperately need 560 00:23:42,110 --> 00:23:44,779 to do it. Right now, at, at least what 561 00:23:44,779 --> 00:23:47,409 I see, demand is so much higher than supply, 562 00:23:47,409 --> 00:23:49,029 and that works out pretty well for us as 563 00:23:49,029 --> 00:23:50,850 developers that already know what we're doing, right, because 564 00:23:50,850 --> 00:23:53,330 we're, we're very much in demand. The power is 565 00:23:53,330 --> 00:23:56,149 on our side right now. But if that demand 566 00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:58,259 are supply are mismatched for too long, the demand 567 00:23:58,259 --> 00:24:00,460 will drop. It'll have to drop. And I, I 568 00:24:00,460 --> 00:24:02,240 know someone who is a CTO for hire. And 569 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:03,450 so he works a lot of companies. And so 570 00:24:03,450 --> 00:24:05,059 he had a start up that just got funded 571 00:24:05,059 --> 00:24:06,769 and was like, OK. Now we're ready. Let's go 572 00:24:06,769 --> 00:24:08,999 hire a Rails developer. And they couldn't. They couldn't 573 00:24:08,999 --> 00:24:10,960 find someone. They said, OK, let's not write it 574 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,749 in Rails. We're gonna go somewhere else. 575 00:24:12,749 --> 00:24:14,450 So, if we have this mismatch for too long, 576 00:24:14,450 --> 00:24:15,999 I think it will be bad for us. And 577 00:24:15,999 --> 00:24:18,399 so I think, if we've got this crazy giant 578 00:24:18,399 --> 00:24:20,179 demand up top, we've got to, got to satisfy 579 00:24:20,179 --> 00:24:20,289 it. 580 00:24:20,289 --> 00:24:20,619 N.R.: Speaking of- 581 00:24:20,619 --> 00:24:21,559 B.O.: And it'll be better in the long run. 582 00:24:21,559 --> 00:24:22,749 N.R.: Speaking from the side of this of somebody 583 00:24:22,749 --> 00:24:27,960 who onboards novices, I think that, I mean, this 584 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,570 is a problem that, to some extent, is outside 585 00:24:29,570 --> 00:24:31,299 of all of their control, right, as Jen was 586 00:24:31,299 --> 00:24:33,350 alluding to. What we need to do on that, 587 00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:36,690 on the, on the incoming, on the incoming side, 588 00:24:36,690 --> 00:24:40,529 is understand that in some cases, the, where, understand 589 00:24:40,529 --> 00:24:43,460 where these students are coming from, that the experiences 590 00:24:43,460 --> 00:24:45,269 that they have had and the experiences they haven't 591 00:24:45,269 --> 00:24:47,700 had, and ideally put them in a situation where 592 00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:49,759 they can be successful, and where we're matching them 593 00:24:49,759 --> 00:24:51,190 to expectations that are reasonable. 594 00:24:51,190 --> 00:24:52,909 You know, I think a lot of the students, 595 00:24:52,909 --> 00:24:54,169 I think that you guys would agree that, that 596 00:24:54,169 --> 00:24:56,600 there are better situations for your students to go 597 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,669 to, and worse situations for your students to go 598 00:24:58,669 --> 00:24:59,889 to, and you want them to go to a 599 00:24:59,889 --> 00:25:02,399 place where there are going to be other p- 600 00:25:02,399 --> 00:25:03,570 you don't want them to go to a place 601 00:25:03,570 --> 00:25:05,470 where they're going to be the entire straw holding 602 00:25:05,470 --> 00:25:07,159 up, you know, the one straw holding up this 603 00:25:07,159 --> 00:25:09,059 huge weight of stuff. You want them to go 604 00:25:09,059 --> 00:25:12,129 to a place where they're going to be more 605 00:25:12,129 --> 00:25:13,799 senior people who can put them in a situation 606 00:25:13,799 --> 00:25:14,679 where they're gonna be successful. 607 00:25:14,679 --> 00:25:16,619 And I do think we have to get better 608 00:25:16,619 --> 00:25:20,610 at doing that, generally. 609 00:25:20,610 --> 00:25:22,759 Creating senior developers is a whole different ball. Jeff, 610 00:25:22,759 --> 00:25:25,720 did you have a point you wanted to make? 611 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,409 J.C.: As far as companies that do and do 612 00:25:28,409 --> 00:25:32,710 not have apprenticeships, I think of it really as 613 00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:35,559 evolution. Like, there are so many companies that sit 614 00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:38,629 around waiting to hire a senior engineer and look 615 00:25:38,629 --> 00:25:40,669 for six months and don't find any and all 616 00:25:40,669 --> 00:25:43,899 that. And meanwhile, the company who brought in apprentices, 617 00:25:43,899 --> 00:25:46,619 they now have six months experience, and they're delivering 618 00:25:46,619 --> 00:25:48,710 probably, like, somebody with two years of experience, if 619 00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:50,690 they're doing it well. And the reality is, if 620 00:25:50,690 --> 00:25:54,169 your company does, in my opinion, does not work 621 00:25:54,169 --> 00:25:57,200 on bringing in young people, young in their career, 622 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,220 you're gonna die. Like, you're just gonna lose. Because 623 00:26:00,220 --> 00:26:02,980 the teams that build up their own people keep 624 00:26:02,980 --> 00:26:06,389 those people. Those people are tremendously valuable six months, 625 00:26:06,389 --> 00:26:08,519 a year, eighteen months in. And they'll just beat 626 00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:08,779 you. 627 00:26:08,779 --> 00:26:10,299 N.R.: Dave, Dave Hoover had a theory at Optiva 628 00:26:10,299 --> 00:26:12,669 that the goal of a, a small company was 629 00:26:12,669 --> 00:26:14,869 to have people at every level. You have the 630 00:26:14,869 --> 00:26:17,429 best novices, you have the best intermediate juniors, you 631 00:26:17,429 --> 00:26:19,350 have the best people right after that. You don't 632 00:26:19,350 --> 00:26:20,700 just have a bunch of seniors and a bunch 633 00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:23,080 of novices. You have people, to the extent that 634 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,720 you can have people at every step in between. 635 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,190 What's great about that is, everybody has somebody who's 636 00:26:28,190 --> 00:26:31,009 about six months ahead of them to point what 637 00:26:31,009 --> 00:26:32,830 their next six months are gonna be like, and 638 00:26:32,830 --> 00:26:35,330 everybody has somebody who's six months behind them, that 639 00:26:35,330 --> 00:26:38,690 they are an obvious and immediate, like, partner for. 640 00:26:38,690 --> 00:26:40,350 So if you can build up a business like 641 00:26:40,350 --> 00:26:42,179 that, if you can build up a team like 642 00:26:42,179 --> 00:26:43,539 that, that's, that's fantastic. 643 00:26:43,539 --> 00:26:45,970 B.O.: We've embraced that like crazy. Like, bringing in 644 00:26:45,970 --> 00:26:47,850 apprentice level people. We have an apprentice program. And 645 00:26:47,850 --> 00:26:49,379 it's been huge for us. We've been able to 646 00:26:49,379 --> 00:26:51,749 hire so many more awesome people than we would 647 00:26:51,749 --> 00:26:53,110 have if we had just said, we're looking for 648 00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:56,730 senior only. We're not willing to invest in these 649 00:26:56,730 --> 00:26:59,960 people and train them. 650 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:02,080 N.R.: So the question is, how do we get, 651 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,399 how do we get the people coming in to 652 00:27:03,399 --> 00:27:07,309 set reasonable goals for what they can accomplish, technically? 653 00:27:07,309 --> 00:27:11,980 B.T.: I'll start. Well, after being a student of 654 00:27:11,980 --> 00:27:16,360 this gentleman, he's actually, I would say, over the, 655 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:18,929 over the six months that I was school, to 656 00:27:18,929 --> 00:27:21,629 that point, he was actually really good in that 657 00:27:21,629 --> 00:27:23,809 learning time about, like, oh. You think you can 658 00:27:23,809 --> 00:27:27,669 do this thing? Go ahead. Knock yourself out. Right? 659 00:27:27,669 --> 00:27:29,529 So, much like with children, I have a seven 660 00:27:29,529 --> 00:27:30,590 year old, it's kind of like, you're in charge 661 00:27:30,590 --> 00:27:33,080 of your own fun. You learn a lot by 662 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,749 being crushed by some of those, oh, this was 663 00:27:35,749 --> 00:27:37,649 a lot harder than I thought it was gonna 664 00:27:37,649 --> 00:27:41,539 be. So I think there's something important about that. 665 00:27:41,539 --> 00:27:44,980 In terms of at the work place, I'd, at 666 00:27:44,980 --> 00:27:47,749 least where I work, you know, they're very good 667 00:27:47,749 --> 00:27:51,529 about, and, and they have a, a focus on 668 00:27:51,529 --> 00:27:54,119 kind of onboarding, right. And so they're very good 669 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,980 about, hey, we're going to help define these goals 670 00:27:56,980 --> 00:27:59,840 with you. We're gonna help ease you into the 671 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,659 code base. And we're gonna do that with smaller 672 00:28:03,659 --> 00:28:06,889 sets of problems to solve. And we're not going 673 00:28:06,889 --> 00:28:10,090 to place this burden on you for, get this 674 00:28:10,090 --> 00:28:13,129 feature done by this exact time. 675 00:28:13,129 --> 00:28:15,019 And so I think all of that is, is 676 00:28:15,019 --> 00:28:17,940 really, really helpful. And the other thing that I 677 00:28:17,940 --> 00:28:19,580 think's really helpful and goes a little bit back 678 00:28:19,580 --> 00:28:21,049 to what we were talking about just a second 679 00:28:21,049 --> 00:28:26,139 ago is, in terms of students, you know, even 680 00:28:26,139 --> 00:28:29,480 in being novices, there's different levels of that. And, 681 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,960 and people are different. And so I think that 682 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,480 the programs that do exist right now, Dev BootCamp 683 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:35,700 and the other ones, I think one thing that's 684 00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:39,210 really important and that was beneficial for me especially, 685 00:28:39,210 --> 00:28:43,489 was as I went through the interview process, my 686 00:28:43,489 --> 00:28:46,710 instructors were there with me through the whole thing. 687 00:28:46,710 --> 00:28:49,720 And they were really, really honest with me, as 688 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,909 well as having conversations with employers, about my ability. 689 00:28:53,909 --> 00:28:58,200 And so, that helped, that honesty about, you know, 690 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,220 where I'm at in my learning and the type 691 00:29:00,220 --> 00:29:02,200 of learner that I am and the things that 692 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,059 I'm interested in, is beneficial so that I don't 693 00:29:05,059 --> 00:29:08,610 find myself in a work place where, you know, 694 00:29:08,610 --> 00:29:11,090 that's all I'm gonna be is, sort of buried 695 00:29:11,090 --> 00:29:13,600 under these goals or things that I can't, you 696 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,570 know, where I can't really prosper. 697 00:29:15,570 --> 00:29:18,840 L.A.: On that note, it's also important to teach 698 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,220 people to reassess their goals and to be able 699 00:29:22,220 --> 00:29:24,929 to take note of where they are and where 700 00:29:24,929 --> 00:29:26,580 they expected to be, and maybe think about why 701 00:29:26,580 --> 00:29:28,629 they're not. I think that's also a very important 702 00:29:28,629 --> 00:29:29,149 piece. 703 00:29:29,149 --> 00:29:31,059 J.M.: Yeah. I just want to kind of, I 704 00:29:31,059 --> 00:29:32,379 like, really both of those, and I like what 705 00:29:32,379 --> 00:29:34,519 you're saying, too. Maybe it's a parent thing. I 706 00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:36,730 have an eight-year-old. And I feel the same way, 707 00:29:36,730 --> 00:29:39,529 where, I feel very strongly it's important for people 708 00:29:39,529 --> 00:29:42,470 to make mistakes and be able to learn from 709 00:29:42,470 --> 00:29:43,820 them. And I don't think it's so much about 710 00:29:43,820 --> 00:29:45,950 preventing them from, you know, trying to scale back 711 00:29:45,950 --> 00:29:48,350 the goals to prevent them from making any mistakes, 712 00:29:48,350 --> 00:29:50,619 but, creating an environment where it's safe to do 713 00:29:50,619 --> 00:29:52,600 that, and them helping them in figuring out what 714 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,980 they can learn from it when they do that. 715 00:29:54,980 --> 00:29:56,909 So that's kind of, in general, the philosophy that 716 00:29:56,909 --> 00:29:59,139 I like to ascribe to, and I think, Dev 717 00:29:59,139 --> 00:30:01,759 BootCamp is in a little bit of a different 718 00:30:01,759 --> 00:30:03,690 situation, where we don't have people as long as 719 00:30:03,690 --> 00:30:05,159 some of the other schools. We only have people 720 00:30:05,159 --> 00:30:07,539 for nine weeks. So we don't have as much 721 00:30:07,539 --> 00:30:09,330 time to do that, but I think we do 722 00:30:09,330 --> 00:30:10,950 that in general, and then also the way we 723 00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:14,049 structure the program starts with the basic building blocks, 724 00:30:14,049 --> 00:30:15,669 and then builds on top of them. 725 00:30:15,669 --> 00:30:18,239 We're a Ruby on Rails training program, but you 726 00:30:18,239 --> 00:30:20,559 don't even get to Rails until your seventh week 727 00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:23,850 of the program. So, we're teaching the fundamentals before 728 00:30:23,850 --> 00:30:25,210 then. So I think if you start out with 729 00:30:25,210 --> 00:30:27,549 the, the basic blocks and build up from there, 730 00:30:27,549 --> 00:30:29,039 and also at the same time kind of create 731 00:30:29,039 --> 00:30:31,590 this environment where it's OK to screw things up, 732 00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:33,539 and somebody's gonna help you figure out, you know, 733 00:30:33,539 --> 00:30:35,720 how to learn from that, or, as the two 734 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,059 things together make it a lot easier to understand 735 00:30:38,059 --> 00:30:39,629 what you can achieve and how to do it. 736 00:30:39,629 --> 00:30:43,009 J.C.: No, hold on man. I'm going. Hold on. 737 00:30:43,009 --> 00:30:45,940 N.R.: I'm sorry. You can have your question after 738 00:30:45,940 --> 00:30:47,029 Jeff says something. 739 00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:49,989 J.C.: So, TDD I heard is over. 740 00:30:49,989 --> 00:30:50,409 N.R.: Dead. 741 00:30:50,409 --> 00:30:51,669 J.C.: But, we teach it anyway. 742 00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:53,549 N.R.: Not, not, not, not just over. Dead. Dead. 743 00:30:53,549 --> 00:30:55,869 J.C.: So we're old fashion. It's dead. Well, we're 744 00:30:55,869 --> 00:30:59,279 old fashioned. And so we, we teach TDD, and 745 00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:03,179 it starts on day two, and I think that 746 00:31:03,179 --> 00:31:05,600 the approach behind TDD is the same approach behind 747 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,090 lean start up. And, like, breaking off incredibly small 748 00:31:09,090 --> 00:31:11,840 problems, getting feedback right away and iterating on that. 749 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,239 And so by starting with TDD, as the means 750 00:31:15,239 --> 00:31:17,440 to build software, and then we try, through these 751 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,369 three week projects they work on in their teams, 752 00:31:20,369 --> 00:31:23,190 really take, like, a lean approach to delivering it 753 00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:25,509 early, adding on incremental features. 754 00:31:25,509 --> 00:31:26,549 Well, first we let them try and build all 755 00:31:26,549 --> 00:31:28,409 the features and deliver it day of, and it 756 00:31:28,409 --> 00:31:30,730 all burns down and we're like, see. That sucks. 757 00:31:30,730 --> 00:31:31,799 Don't do that again. 758 00:31:31,799 --> 00:31:36,239 And, but, like, by, by starting with the tests, 759 00:31:36,239 --> 00:31:38,710 and then applying that to the product, I think 760 00:31:38,710 --> 00:31:41,129 it teaches you how to take an idea and 761 00:31:41,129 --> 00:31:44,049 figure out, what is the essential component here? Like, 762 00:31:44,049 --> 00:31:46,269 whether, whether it's an aspiration for a company I'm 763 00:31:46,269 --> 00:31:48,720 gonna build, or just the goal for, I'm gonna 764 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,590 learn something. Like, it's critically important to figure out, 765 00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:53,460 like, what's the first step. And I think that's 766 00:31:53,460 --> 00:31:55,149 the hardest part of any good idea. 767 00:31:55,149 --> 00:31:58,529 N.R.: OK. Now you can ask your question. 768 00:31:58,529 --> 00:32:01,989 J.C.: So I'm very involved in the interview process 769 00:32:01,989 --> 00:32:03,749 and do a lot of like, coaching with the 770 00:32:03,749 --> 00:32:07,859 students and so forth. And, your technical interviews are 771 00:32:07,859 --> 00:32:11,799 a hot mess. Like, people have cargo culted their 772 00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:15,600 process from, like, two companies ago, and you'll see, 773 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,179 sometimes, it, it makes absolutely no sense. There is 774 00:32:19,179 --> 00:32:21,659 a company that'll put, like, students through six rounds 775 00:32:21,659 --> 00:32:23,940 of interviews, and then say no. And I'm like, 776 00:32:23,940 --> 00:32:25,840 do you understand how much of your own time 777 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,039 you've wasted here? Like, it's insane. 778 00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:32,179 Specifically with the technical questions, you'll see such a 779 00:32:32,179 --> 00:32:34,580 broad range. People will be like, I have an 780 00:32:34,580 --> 00:32:35,629 array. How do I pull out an element? And 781 00:32:35,629 --> 00:32:39,619 it's like, really? Come on. And then there's others, 782 00:32:39,619 --> 00:32:41,440 we, we did have a student get asked, like, 783 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,509 are you familiar with binary trees? And he said, 784 00:32:43,509 --> 00:32:45,090 like, yeah. I've built a binary tree. And they're 785 00:32:45,090 --> 00:32:48,779 like, do you know, like the, the lookup efficiency 786 00:32:48,779 --> 00:32:51,350 of something? And he's like, oh, you mean like, 787 00:32:51,350 --> 00:32:52,619 n log(n)? And it's like boom. Bomb dropped on 788 00:32:52,619 --> 00:32:53,869 you. Like, you didn't see that coming from somebody 789 00:32:53,869 --> 00:32:57,179 who's been doing it for six months, right. 790 00:32:57,179 --> 00:33:00,499 The reality is that, code, like, everyone, I guess 791 00:33:00,499 --> 00:33:03,970 not everyone. You should agree that coding on a 792 00:33:03,970 --> 00:33:06,409 white board is dumb, right. I tell students that 793 00:33:06,409 --> 00:33:07,700 if somebody asks you to code on a white 794 00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:10,789 board, tell them how do I run the tests? 795 00:33:10,789 --> 00:33:13,879 And, like, question over. 796 00:33:13,879 --> 00:33:19,710 But the, the piece about, like, how do they 797 00:33:19,710 --> 00:33:21,570 learn? How do they solve problems? That is incredibly 798 00:33:21,570 --> 00:33:24,850 valuable. So, yeah. I, I think we need to 799 00:33:24,850 --> 00:33:29,320 have a lot more conversation around how, as teams 800 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,039 and companies, do we want to build up interview 801 00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:34,210 processes that actually achieve the goals and, and like 802 00:33:34,210 --> 00:33:35,999 find the people that we want? 803 00:33:35,999 --> 00:33:38,859 Because, from what I've seen, there's like. There's no 804 00:33:38,859 --> 00:33:40,629 understanding. There's kind of like, fear and uncertainty about 805 00:33:40,629 --> 00:33:42,879 it. We had a student this time ask, get 806 00:33:42,879 --> 00:33:45,980 asked to sign an MVA about the interview process. 807 00:33:45,980 --> 00:33:48,980 There's, it's not that interesting, bros. Like, whatever it 808 00:33:48,980 --> 00:33:51,220 is, it's not that interesting. So, I think there's 809 00:33:51,220 --> 00:33:52,940 a lot of work to be done there. 810 00:33:52,940 --> 00:33:55,519 K.E.: I can just talk on a personal level 811 00:33:55,519 --> 00:33:57,759 of, I had a really, well, I don't want 812 00:33:57,759 --> 00:34:00,330 to say I had a bad technical interview. But 813 00:34:00,330 --> 00:34:02,450 I want to speak to the good technical interview 814 00:34:02,450 --> 00:34:04,529 that I had at the current company that I'm 815 00:34:04,529 --> 00:34:05,669 with, and part of the reason why I chose 816 00:34:05,669 --> 00:34:07,269 to go to that company is because of the 817 00:34:07,269 --> 00:34:08,859 technical interview. 818 00:34:08,859 --> 00:34:11,270 And, the interview I had was a take home 819 00:34:11,270 --> 00:34:13,290 assignment. And this is one of the different formats 820 00:34:13,290 --> 00:34:15,290 you can do. I had a take home assignment 821 00:34:15,290 --> 00:34:17,820 for three days to build an API. It was 822 00:34:17,820 --> 00:34:21,100 my first API, and it was just an amazing 823 00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:23,429 experience, in that, not only did I get to 824 00:34:23,429 --> 00:34:26,080 learn something, as part of the interview, I got 825 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,449 to see how accessible my manager would be, and 826 00:34:30,449 --> 00:34:32,480 then he was also able to judge, how did 827 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,409 I attack something that I didn't know? And also, 828 00:34:35,409 --> 00:34:37,780 what kind of questions that, did I ask? And 829 00:34:37,780 --> 00:34:41,489 I think we each got a really good understanding 830 00:34:41,489 --> 00:34:44,960 of what this type of relationship would be like. 831 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,570 So that's just personal experience. 832 00:34:46,570 --> 00:34:49,010 B.O.: So the, the process that we do I 833 00:34:49,010 --> 00:34:50,330 think is actually pretty good. So we do have 834 00:34:50,330 --> 00:34:52,800 a, a technical screen, which is sort of a 835 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,449 discussion of, how might you build this? How might 836 00:34:54,449 --> 00:34:56,300 you build that? But the real meat of the 837 00:34:56,300 --> 00:34:59,230 interview is, in person pairing in the office. A 838 00:34:59,230 --> 00:35:01,970 full day. And you work on real stuff. Real 839 00:35:01,970 --> 00:35:04,850 client work. Real open source work. Whatever people would 840 00:35:04,850 --> 00:35:06,770 actually normally be doing. And you sit next to 841 00:35:06,770 --> 00:35:07,980 somebody. And I like that a lot. 842 00:35:07,980 --> 00:35:10,050 You know, you can run the tests. It's not 843 00:35:10,050 --> 00:35:12,900 a, a fake, contrived problem. You can see, also, 844 00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:14,380 what it's like to sit next to somebody, and 845 00:35:14,380 --> 00:35:16,060 it's cause there's, there's that social fit, which is 846 00:35:16,060 --> 00:35:18,240 so important, too. And so that, the white boarding 847 00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:20,480 thing, I agree. That needs to die, for sure. 848 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,250 And, you know, let's move more towards pairing and 849 00:35:22,250 --> 00:35:23,890 seeing what people are actually like on real stuff 850 00:35:23,890 --> 00:35:25,600 that you're working on. 851 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,520 J.C.: I forgot to mention one of my favorite 852 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,830 interviews that I ever saw, that you reminded me 853 00:35:31,830 --> 00:35:34,930 of, was ThoughtWorks asks you to create a code 854 00:35:34,930 --> 00:35:37,800 sample, or, like, solve a sample assignment and submit 855 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,330 it. You have, like, a week, or something along 856 00:35:39,330 --> 00:35:40,770 those lines. And then when you get into the 857 00:35:40,770 --> 00:35:42,490 in person interview, what you do is sit down 858 00:35:42,490 --> 00:35:46,160 with an engineer and pair on refactoring your submission 859 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:47,110 to the assignment. 860 00:35:47,110 --> 00:35:48,730 And so they get to see a lot of 861 00:35:48,730 --> 00:35:50,510 great things that way. Like, how do you understand 862 00:35:50,510 --> 00:35:53,090 that you, that you wrote? Did you actually write 863 00:35:53,090 --> 00:35:55,690 it? You know. Like, and how do you think 864 00:35:55,690 --> 00:35:57,990 about refactoring. Do you go, like, what it works? 865 00:35:57,990 --> 00:35:59,350 Why would I change it? You know. Or, do 866 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,890 you understand how to restructure, abstract objects, abstract methods. 867 00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:04,690 I thought it was awesome. 868 00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:05,360 N.R.: We do something like that too, while we're 869 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:06,360 sharing, we've done that before. I think we have 870 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:07,530 time for one more question. 871 00:36:07,530 --> 00:36:08,330 B.O.: That guy's had his hand up like the 872 00:36:08,330 --> 00:36:08,880 whole time. 873 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:09,700 N.R.: OK. So I will, I will go with 874 00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:12,880 you. I hope it's a good question. We actually, 875 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,000 we're last. I have no place to go, I 876 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,340 have no place to go after this. But they 877 00:36:16,340 --> 00:36:21,400 may stop recording us. 878 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:22,370 After dark. 879 00:36:22,370 --> 00:36:24,070 AUDIENCE: [indecipherable] 880 00:36:24,070 --> 00:36:26,470 L.A.: We spent a lot of time getting women 881 00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:29,810 familiar with technical concepts and comfortable talking about technical 882 00:36:29,810 --> 00:36:32,850 concepts so they can take on more technical roles. 883 00:36:32,850 --> 00:36:34,700 Not necessarily as an engineer, but perhaps as a 884 00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:38,050 product manager, instead of doing project management. And, that's 885 00:36:38,050 --> 00:36:39,830 a subtle difference to us, but it's a huge 886 00:36:39,830 --> 00:36:41,460 difference to them. It's a world of difference. It's 887 00:36:41,460 --> 00:36:44,950 more technical responsibility. They're more comfortable with their knowledge. 888 00:36:44,950 --> 00:36:49,040 And so, my goal, teaching people, is not to 889 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,380 get them to be x, it's to get them 890 00:36:51,380 --> 00:36:54,580 to whatever their x happiness will be. I love 891 00:36:54,580 --> 00:36:56,370 what I do, but that may not be right 892 00:36:56,370 --> 00:36:58,590 for them. I want to help them in any 893 00:36:58,590 --> 00:37:00,690 way that I can to get to the technical 894 00:37:00,690 --> 00:37:02,750 career that they want to have, that will work 895 00:37:02,750 --> 00:37:05,330 for them. And whatever resources I have, I will 896 00:37:05,330 --> 00:37:10,810 just like waterfall at their face. So. 897 00:37:10,810 --> 00:37:14,320 J.C.: It's one of the questions I really try 898 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,160 and watch out for in students, or applicants, at 899 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,970 that stage, is do you want to be a 900 00:37:19,970 --> 00:37:23,070 professional developer? And if the answer is no, please 901 00:37:23,070 --> 00:37:25,910 don't come. Because it's a tremendous waste of time. 902 00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:28,810 Like, spending twenty-seven weeks to prepare for a job 903 00:37:28,810 --> 00:37:31,730 you don't want makes no sense. And I redirect 904 00:37:31,730 --> 00:37:33,940 them, like, you're a lot better off, like, going 905 00:37:33,940 --> 00:37:36,540 to Dev BootCamp, and you can come out and 906 00:37:36,540 --> 00:37:39,870 like, you have some programming skills and you can 907 00:37:39,870 --> 00:37:42,630 reappropriate those into a management position, in a project 908 00:37:42,630 --> 00:37:44,430 position if you want to. It makes a lot 909 00:37:44,430 --> 00:37:45,540 more sense. 910 00:37:45,540 --> 00:37:48,120 J.M.: Yeah. I'll, I'll just add to that. That, 911 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,110 I think that, sometimes even Dev BootCamp is a 912 00:37:50,110 --> 00:37:52,870 little too intense for that, just because most of 913 00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:54,350 the people, like, it's still hard to like quit 914 00:37:54,350 --> 00:37:55,920 your job for nine weeks if you're just kind 915 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,220 of doing it to, to pivot. But it is, 916 00:37:59,220 --> 00:38:01,030 it's less intense, or it might be a little 917 00:38:01,030 --> 00:38:03,290 bit easier. And we do have people who go 918 00:38:03,290 --> 00:38:05,480 through who want to apply it to, maybe, a, 919 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,840 a certain area that isn't just being a straight 920 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,260 up developer. But I think, like, Liz was talking 921 00:38:10,260 --> 00:38:12,940 about, things like Girl Develop It and other organizations 922 00:38:12,940 --> 00:38:16,430 that are working on really reaching out to people, 923 00:38:16,430 --> 00:38:17,770 and there's lots of them. And they have lots 924 00:38:17,770 --> 00:38:19,700 of different focuses. But I think that's where they 925 00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:21,960 really come into play, is that just opening these 926 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,230 doors, and you get to choose where you go 927 00:38:24,230 --> 00:38:25,330 after that. 928 00:38:25,330 --> 00:38:26,330 You know, you kind of just go, maybe a 929 00:38:26,330 --> 00:38:28,490 door is the wrong word, but more of a 930 00:38:28,490 --> 00:38:30,310 gateway. And, so then you can go in many 931 00:38:30,310 --> 00:38:33,460 directions after that. So, I think that these are 932 00:38:33,460 --> 00:38:35,620 compliments, not nec- they're not all necessarily the same 933 00:38:35,620 --> 00:38:37,930 thing. We kind of have a spectrum of different 934 00:38:37,930 --> 00:38:40,370 organizations, and they compliment each other really well. 935 00:38:40,370 --> 00:38:42,760 The really nice thing about just being, reaching out 936 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,160 and letting people choose where they want to go, 937 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:46,870 maybe they don't know what they want and they 938 00:38:46,870 --> 00:38:49,570 don't know what's out there. I know, you know, 939 00:38:49,570 --> 00:38:51,390 as I was growing up, I didn't even have 940 00:38:51,390 --> 00:38:54,220 the internet, you know. Web, being a web application 941 00:38:54,220 --> 00:38:56,780 developer didn't even exist. So I had no idea 942 00:38:56,780 --> 00:38:58,760 until I was probably like in my early twenties 943 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,070 that maybe this might exist and maybe I can 944 00:39:01,070 --> 00:39:02,530 start working towards it. 945 00:39:02,530 --> 00:39:04,530 And there are still, and that was kind of 946 00:39:04,530 --> 00:39:06,430 a time thing for me. But there are many 947 00:39:06,430 --> 00:39:08,530 people who don't have access to the opp- to 948 00:39:08,530 --> 00:39:10,220 the kind of opportunities that we do, and so 949 00:39:10,220 --> 00:39:13,390 just being able to give them more accessible ways 950 00:39:13,390 --> 00:39:15,330 to see what is out there, might be able 951 00:39:15,330 --> 00:39:16,900 to say, oh, well maybe I actually do want 952 00:39:16,900 --> 00:39:18,040 to do that. And then they can take one 953 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:18,990 of these other programs. 954 00:39:18,990 --> 00:39:21,060 N.R.: Yeah. Things like CodeSchool and Rails for Zombies 955 00:39:21,060 --> 00:39:22,890 and stuff also have a place in that, too. 956 00:39:22,890 --> 00:39:25,600 You get, you get a certain amount, enough knowledge 957 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,930 to understand. You have to have enough. There are 958 00:39:27,930 --> 00:39:29,200 some positions where all you need to know is 959 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:30,580 you need to know when your technical person is 960 00:39:30,580 --> 00:39:34,720 totally bull shitting you. And that, that's, those kinds 961 00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:37,260 of things move to that, go to speak to 962 00:39:37,260 --> 00:39:37,510 that. 963 00:39:37,510 --> 00:39:39,200 I am obligated to tell you that we're at 964 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:40,900 time. I, I don't have any place to go. 965 00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:43,620 I don't know about you guys. So, if people 966 00:39:43,620 --> 00:39:46,340 have questions, I'm willing to, with whoever wants, continue 967 00:39:46,340 --> 00:39:48,850 to answer questions. If you have some place, if 968 00:39:48,850 --> 00:39:51,400 you guys have places to go, that's fine. But 969 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,270 first, just a round of applause for the panel. 970 00:39:54,270 --> 00:39:56,850 Thank you guys all for showing up. And, thank 971 00:39:56,850 --> 00:39:57,700 you for coming.