[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:01.16,0:00:02.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's a lot of your work
Dialogue: 0,0:00:02.89,0:00:07.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that says quite a lot of interesting\Nthings about the 20th century.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:07.07,0:00:12.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Certainly the first thing that sprung \Nto mind was {\i1}From Hell{\i0},
Dialogue: 0,0:00:12.06,0:00:16.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was an idea in {\i1}From Hell{\i0}, which was \Na big inspiration in my {\i1}KLF{\i0} book,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:16.83,0:00:21.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the idea was that the act of\NJack the Ripper, um,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:21.19,0:00:26.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was what gave birth to the 20th century. I\Nwas just curious where that idea came from.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:26.34,0:00:35.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, that was my conceit \Nthat resolved a lot of the material
Dialogue: 0,0:00:35.96,0:00:41.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that had emerged during \Nmy research into {\i1}From Hell{\i0}.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:41.16,0:00:46.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Um ... when I was just looking\Ninto the 1880s,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:46.26,0:00:50.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I noticed all of these things\Nthat had happened,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:50.42,0:00:57.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I think in 1882, Michelson and Morley\Nactually performed the experiments
Dialogue: 0,0:00:57.39,0:01:05.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which were meant to iron out a couple of\Nlast wrinkles in the theory of the aether,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:05.48,0:01:09.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but ended up completely disproving \Nthat aether existed,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:10.23,0:01:14.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was a kind of result, but not \Nthe one that they were looking for.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:14.74,0:01:17.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You'd got France going into Indochina.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:18.51,0:01:28.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You had got the beginnings of the\Nmodern art movement with Walter Sickert.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:28.92,0:01:35.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You'd got some of the first kind of\Nmodern realist writings
Dialogue: 0,0:01:35.47,0:01:38.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with people like Emile Zola.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:38.06,0:01:46.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You'd got a surprising amount of focusing\Nupon prostitutes in literature and the arts.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:48.53,0:01:57.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And all of these things, which had gone on\Nto really colour and shape the 20th century,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:57.45,0:02:03.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then in 1888,\Nthese senseless, violent murders.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:05.14,0:02:11.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It just seemed to me that \Nsymbolically, I could kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:02:12.61,0:02:20.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,position the Jack the Ripper murders\Nas the birth throes of the 20th century,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:20.25,0:02:23.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with Jack the Ripper as a kind of\Nreally ghastly midwife.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:23.47,0:02:27.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[chuckles] Yeah, and there's the whole\Ntabloid sort of thing growing up around it
Dialogue: 0,0:02:27.75,0:02:30.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that sort of violent sort of stew, \Nso it sort of ...
Dialogue: 0,0:02:30.18,0:02:34.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What struck me about reading {\i1}Providence{\i0},
Dialogue: 0,0:02:34.34,0:02:38.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even though it's not so overtly\Nabout the 20th century,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:38.24,0:02:45.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the Lovecraftian world view\Nprobably sums up that time
Dialogue: 0,0:02:45.88,0:02:51.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,better even than my book or anything\Ndeliberately about the 20th century.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:51.47,0:02:53.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do you see it as a ... ?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:53.34,0:03:00.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, yeah, I mean, I see ... Researching\N{\i1}Providence{\i0} was quite an eye-opener,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:00.38,0:03:07.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it changed my opinion of Lovecraft.\NNot of his stature as a writer --
Dialogue: 0,0:03:07.26,0:03:11.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in fact, I think that only continues\Nto increase the more I think about it --
Dialogue: 0,0:03:12.68,0:03:17.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but more of an understanding of him\Nin relation to his times.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:18.18,0:03:23.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The thing is, Lovecraft is generally\Npositioned as an outsider,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:23.44,0:03:26.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably because that was the name\Nof one of his most famous stories,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:26.96,0:03:31.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so it's not much of a reach. \NBut you actually look at Lovecraft,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:31.25,0:03:41.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he was homophobic. This at a time \Nwhen gay men, principally gay men,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:41.59,0:03:44.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some gay women as well, \Nbut that was different,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:44.54,0:03:52.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were starting to emerge quite vocally and\Nvery visibly onto the streets of New York.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.54,0:04:00.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There was a huge gay subculture in the\Nearly 20th-century New York.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:00.44,0:04:03.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It wasn't just something that started\Nafter the Second World War.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:04.84,0:04:07.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And these were becoming more visible.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:07.80,0:04:12.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You'd got women; I mean, Lovecraft \Nwas certainly not a misogynist, but ...
Dialogue: 0,0:04:13.23,0:04:20.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he was perhaps somewhat awkward or\Nconflicted in his relationships with women.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:20.75,0:04:24.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This was at a time when women\Nwere just about to get the vote.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:25.88,0:04:33.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There had been 20 years of the biggest influx\Nof immigrants that America had ever seen,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:33.83,0:04:41.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,up until 1910, 1920, um, \Nand that had led to conservative fears
Dialogue: 0,0:04:41.95,0:04:48.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that American identity was going to be lost\Nbeneath a tidal wave of miscegenation,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:48.51,0:04:59.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inbreeding, sort of. All of these fears\Nwere exactly those of the white,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:59.98,0:05:06.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,middle-class common man. I mean, the\NRussian revolution had just happened in 1917,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:06.90,0:05:13.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and in America there were all of these\Nstrikes, which at the time
Dialogue: 0,0:05:13.90,0:05:17.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looked like, oh, it's going to\Nhappen over here.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:17.63,0:05:20.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In fact, most people, when you\Ntalk about the Red Scare,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:20.70,0:05:23.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they think, oh, that's the 1950s, \Nthat's McCarthyism.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:23.97,0:05:31.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Red Scare was 1919, and in some ways\NLovecraft became a perfect barometer
Dialogue: 0,0:05:31.50,0:05:35.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because he was so sensitive,\Nso unbearably sensitive,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:35.20,0:05:38.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that all of the fears\Nof the early 20th century,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:38.49,0:05:46.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,including the fears of ... uhhh ...\Nman's relegation in importance,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:46.91,0:05:51.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,given what we were starting to \Nunderstand about the cosmos.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:51.01,0:05:57.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lovecraft was unlike other people of his \Nday. He actually understood that stuff.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:57.55,0:06:00.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He was very quick.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:00.20,0:06:05.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He didn't like Einstein, but he was very\Nquick to assimilate Einstein's ideas.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:05.95,0:06:11.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He didn't like quantum theory,\Nbut he {\i1}almost{\i0} understood it.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:13.07,0:06:18.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, this was it. He, in some ways his\Nstories represented the kind of landscape
Dialogue: 0,0:06:18.100,0:06:30.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of fear, the territory of fear,\Nfor the 20th century as a whole.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:30.02,0:06:33.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So he didn't like the modernists at all,\Nin terms of writing and things like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:33.34,0:06:39.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But he was a closet modernist himself.\NI mean, yeah, he hated Gertrude Stein,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:39.31,0:06:44.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,T.S. Eliot, James Joyce.\NHe wrote a brilliantly funny,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:44.31,0:06:48.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and actually very well-written\Nparody of {\i1}The Wasteland{\i0},
Dialogue: 0,0:06:48.81,0:06:51.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,called {\i1}Waste Paper{\i0}.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:52.00,0:06:54.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But, you actually look at \NLovecraft's writing,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:54.94,0:06:58.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and much as he's decrying\Nall of the modernists,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:58.49,0:07:03.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and much as he's bigging up\Nhis favourite 18th-century authors,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:03.54,0:07:07.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people like Pope, um, \Nactually Lovecraft is a modernist.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:07.70,0:07:10.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He's using stream of consciousness\Ntechniques,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:10.86,0:07:18.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he is using glossolalia more impenetrable\Nthan anything in {\i1}Finnegan's Wake{\i0},
Dialogue: 0,0:07:19.31,0:07:29.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he is using techniques of deliberately\Nalienating the reader or confusing the reader.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:29.93,0:07:34.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,His descriptions tend to be\Nalong the lines of,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:34.89,0:07:39.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Here's three things that \NCthulhu doesn't look like."
Dialogue: 0,0:07:40.15,0:07:45.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or he would describe the colour out of\Nspace as only a colour by analogy,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:45.17,0:07:50.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so what, is it a sound, is it a rough\Ntexture, or a smell? What?
Dialogue: 0,0:07:51.58,0:07:56.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,These are deliberate kind of techniques.\NThey're not flaws.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:56.58,0:08:00.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are techniques of\Nalienating the reader,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:00.84,0:08:03.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of putting the reader into\Nan uncanny space,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.90,0:08:09.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where language is no longer capable\Nof describing the experience.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:09.90,0:08:12.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, and that sort of -- for horror,\Nit was, it was ...
Dialogue: 0,0:08:12.90,0:08:16.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the Gothic horror had sort of gone\Nand it was just the sort of modern horror.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:16.96,0:08:22.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, well that's important because all\Nhorror, or most horror up 'til Lovecraft,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:22.86,0:08:27.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,had all been predicated upon \Nthe Gothic tradition,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.29,0:08:34.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is a tradition where you have an\Nenormous vertical weight in time
Dialogue: 0,0:08:35.41,0:08:40.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is bearing down upon\Na fragile present.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:40.97,0:08:45.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A history of dark things in the past\Nthat are leading up to
Dialogue: 0,0:08:45.59,0:08:48.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some terrifying denouement \Nin the present day.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:49.59,0:08:55.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,With Lovecraft, yes, there is an awful lot\Nof talking about Rimmer,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:55.35,0:08:57.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,antiquity and the past.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:57.54,0:09:02.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But with Lovecraft I think that it's\Na much more present horror of the future.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:02.32,0:09:09.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He's talking about that time when man will\Nbe able to organise all of his knowledge
Dialogue: 0,0:09:09.13,0:09:13.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and when that time comes, \Nthe only question is
Dialogue: 0,0:09:13.89,0:09:18.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether we will embrace this new\Nilluminating light,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:18.98,0:09:24.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or whether we will flee from it into the\Nreassuring shadows of a new Dark Age,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:24.70,0:09:32.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is very prescient, given, say,\Ncurrent fundamentalism,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:32.70,0:09:40.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is a direct -- a response to\Ntoo much knowledge, too much information.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:40.24,0:09:43.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let's take it all back to something\Nthat we're sure of,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:43.57,0:09:46.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that God created the world in six days.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:48.34,0:09:51.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah. In that way Lovecraft was sort of ...
Dialogue: 0,0:09:53.21,0:09:58.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yeah, he was really exploring all of the\N-- he was a very --
Dialogue: 0,0:09:59.63,0:10:02.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he is {\i1}still{\i0} a very contemporary writer.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:02.75,0:10:11.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that if you wanted to do as \NMichael Moorcock did, in the '60s,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:11.24,0:10:15.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Michael Moorcock was mainly\Ninterested in modernism.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:17.14,0:10:23.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He noticed that the science fiction genre\Nwas laying around with its wheels up,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:23.12,0:10:27.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that nobody was doing much with it\Napart from kind of cowboys in space,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:27.48,0:10:29.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so he thought, \N"Why don't we hijack this,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:29.98,0:10:34.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"and make science fiction\Na vehicle for modernism?"
Dialogue: 0,0:10:34.20,0:10:38.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then, yeah, J. G. Ballard,\Nall the rest.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:39.24,0:10:43.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think you could do the same thing with\NLovecraft, alone amongst horror writers.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:44.43,0:10:49.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that Lovecraft's preoccupations\Nwere so forward-looking that --
Dialogue: 0,0:10:49.59,0:10:55.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and his writing techniques were so unusual\N-- that yeah, you could use Lovecraft
Dialogue: 0,0:10:55.66,0:11:01.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as the starting point for a new kind of\Nmodernist horror, if you will.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:01.92,0:11:07.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That sense of linking the 20th century\Nto this sort of impending horror, um,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:07.76,0:11:13.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reminds me a bit of {\i1}Century{\i0}, or\N{\i1}League of Extraordinary Gentlemen{\i0}, vol. 3,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:13.05,0:11:19.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the {\i1}Century{\i0} one, which for my mind is\Nprobably the bleakest of all the {\i1}Leagues{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:11:19.25,0:11:26.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of thing. It's got that sense that\Nthe creative imagination withers away
Dialogue: 0,0:11:26.13,0:11:29.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,during the 20th century. \NIs that what you were aiming for?
Dialogue: 0,0:11:29.57,0:11:33.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, it was. I got quite a bit\Nof criticism for that.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:33.80,0:11:39.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I know that people were saying, after\Nreading the third book, they said
Dialogue: 0,0:11:39.73,0:11:45.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it was my equivalent of saying,\N"It were all fields 'round here once."
Dialogue: 0,0:11:45.93,0:11:48.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which it wasn't.\NThat wasn't what I was saying.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:48.46,0:11:56.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But what I was saying was that\NI don't think it was unfair to choose
Dialogue: 0,0:11:56.55,0:12:06.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}The Beggar's Opera{\i0} as representing \Na big, important cultural event of 1910.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:07.30,0:12:12.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't think it was unfair choosing\NDonald Cammell's {\i1}Performance{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:12:12.90,0:12:18.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as representing a big, important\Ncultural event in 1969.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:19.90,0:12:24.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I don't think it was unfair choosing\NJ.K. Rowling's {\i1}Harry Potter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:12:24.93,0:12:31.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as representing a big cultural event\Nfrom the early 21st century.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:33.86,0:12:37.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would say that if you were to plot\Nthose things on a graph,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:37.96,0:12:41.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the line isn't going up.\N[JH, laughing] Yes.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:42.11,0:12:44.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that it's a fair comment
Dialogue: 0,0:12:44.80,0:12:47.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that our approach to culture
Dialogue: 0,0:12:49.20,0:12:54.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the mainstream has degenerated.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:55.38,0:12:59.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That the values that people used to\Nput into a work of art,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:59.38,0:13:02.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those have been eroded.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:04.44,0:13:12.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, yeah. I was trying to express that in\N{\i1}The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:13:12.97,0:13:16.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because the whole of\N{\i1}The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen{\i0},
Dialogue: 0,0:13:16.68,0:13:25.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's about this massive planet of fiction\Nthat has been a kind of a counterpart
Dialogue: 0,0:13:25.13,0:13:29.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to our own world\Nfor as long as we've had fiction.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:30.70,0:13:36.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That we've made up this world that,\Nit's the world we want,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:37.25,0:13:42.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the exciting world where exciting things\Nhappen and meaningful things happen,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:43.40,0:13:49.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and if you look at those two worlds,\Nthere's interesting points of comparison,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:49.51,0:13:52.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they have similar events\Nthat shaped them,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:53.38,0:13:57.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but slightly different, and they\Nworked out slightly differently.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:58.26,0:14:04.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So in {\i1}Century{\i0} it was using {\i1}The League{\i0}\Nto look at the 20th century
Dialogue: 0,0:14:04.12,0:14:09.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the point of view of \N20th-century culture,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:09.91,0:14:16.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and to draw what conclusions \Nseemed accurate.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:18.68,0:14:24.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wasn't saying that all culture in the\Nlate 20th century was rubbish.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:24.69,0:14:26.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wasn't saying that culture was doomed.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:27.24,0:14:32.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was saying that mainstream culture\Nwas becoming repetitive,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:33.48,0:14:36.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was not having original ideas,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:36.77,0:14:41.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would no longer be capable of\Ncoming up with a {\i1}Performance{\i0},
Dialogue: 0,0:14:41.31,0:14:44.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let alone a {\i1}Threepenny Opera{\i0}.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:45.24,0:14:48.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, it's, I mean, what struck me\Nwhen I was doing my 20th-century book
Dialogue: 0,0:14:48.64,0:14:52.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was especially all the guys who took us\Ninto space, took us to the moon --
Dialogue: 0,0:14:52.27,0:14:58.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sergei Korolev, Wernher von Braun --\Nthe importance of Jules Verne to them.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:58.03,0:15:03.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then that culture of Buck Rogers \Nand Flash Gordon and things like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:03.34,0:15:06.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I was thinking about that when I was\Nwatching -- d'you know, have you seen, um,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:06.87,0:15:08.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Prometheus{\i0}, the, uh ...\N[AM] I haven't.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:08.70,0:15:14.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's {\i1}really{\i0} grim. Basically they\Nrealize humanity's been, uh,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:14.75,0:15:17.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,built by aliens, so they go off \Nto find these aliens,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:17.42,0:15:22.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they finally find the aliens to say,\N"Oh, godlike thing, why did you create us?"
Dialogue: 0,0:15:22.15,0:15:26.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the alien goes, "Oh, are these things,\Nthese beings still around?"
Dialogue: 0,0:15:26.90,0:15:29.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and just starts like punching them \Nin the face to sort of kill them.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:29.46,0:15:32.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's about as bleak an idea\Nas you can imagine,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:32.29,0:15:36.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I just kind of wonder if\NWernher von Braun and those guys
Dialogue: 0,0:15:36.20,0:15:38.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were growing up with that level\Nof science fiction,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:38.64,0:15:42.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether they'd have been quite so keen\Nto go for the moon and push us forward.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:42.79,0:15:49.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I mean, I think that science fiction\N-- it's interesting what --
Dialogue: 0,0:15:49.81,0:15:53.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the way that science fiction\Nwas handled in the 20th century.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:54.09,0:15:57.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, science fiction, all right,\Nthere's a lot of precursors for it,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:59.02,0:16:04.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but a non-controversial starting point would\Nprobably be Mary Shelley's {\i1}Frankenstein{\i0}.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:04.42,0:16:05.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[JH] Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:05.88,0:16:10.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then you'd move on to people \Nlike Wells and Verne,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:11.31,0:16:13.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about a century later.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:14.100,0:16:27.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, all of those are actually kind of grim\Nwarning visions of the potential future.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:28.94,0:16:38.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are potentially alarmist about the\Nnature of technology and what it will mean.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:39.26,0:16:42.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,With Mary Shelley, she was reacting\Nto the Industrial Revolution,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:42.79,0:16:48.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was actually starting up around her\Nwhile she was writing {\i1}Frankenstein{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:16:48.38,0:16:51.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in 1814 or whatever it was.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:52.30,0:17:01.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Wells, he is, all of his science fiction\Nbooks are for the most part dystopias.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:02.86,0:17:09.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Time Machine{\i0}, with its view of the class\Nsystem of Wells' day,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:09.97,0:17:15.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even more stratified, literally, so that\Nyou've got working-class cannibals
Dialogue: 0,0:17:15.20,0:17:22.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,living underground and feeding upon\Nthese dopey, drippy middle-class
Dialogue: 0,0:17:22.18,0:17:28.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of food animals, basically.\N[JH] It's the austerity story.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:28.26,0:17:33.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[AM] Yes, exactly. And Jules Verne.\NNow, obviously Jules Verne
Dialogue: 0,0:17:33.52,0:17:39.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is getting much more of a kick out of his\Nbig machines, but he always says,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:39.29,0:17:43.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"And imagine if these machines were to\Nfall into the hands of a madman!
Dialogue: 0,0:17:43.30,0:17:50.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Like Captain Nemo, who I secretly admire."\NBut at least it is a warning.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:51.00,0:17:57.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,1910, 1915, America discovers science\Nfiction in the form of Tom Swift.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:59.50,0:18:03.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it is a different thing altogether.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:03.56,0:18:06.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It is not about giving\Ndire warnings for the future.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:06.24,0:18:11.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It is about saying, "Look how great\NAmerica's going to be in the future."
Dialogue: 0,0:18:11.53,0:18:17.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's almost, I suspect ... \NThe tendency, in older nations,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:17.50,0:18:21.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when we want to big ourselves up,\Nis to reach back to the past,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:21.30,0:18:25.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to something imaginary in the past, \Nlike King Arthur or something like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:25.77,0:18:30.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,America hasn't got that amount \Nof history to deal with,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:30.19,0:18:35.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so in some ways what America needs\Nis science fiction.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:35.25,0:18:38.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When we're trying to say, \N"Look at what we were,"
Dialogue: 0,0:18:38.98,0:18:44.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then America more or less has to say,\N"Look at what we will be."
Dialogue: 0,0:18:44.71,0:18:50.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so their science fiction from the 1920s,\Nwith the boom of the pulp magazines,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:50.34,0:18:57.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was all of this bright, optimistic\Nnew frontier stuff,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:57.63,0:19:00.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where it was going to be \NCowboys and Indians all over again,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:00.31,0:19:04.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,only it was going to be \NEarthmen and Neptunians.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:04.04,0:19:09.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you could just go through the whole\Nof the tropes of the Western genre
Dialogue: 0,0:19:09.70,0:19:16.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and pioneer fiction, but in space.\NAnd it became this ... in my opinion,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:16.86,0:19:20.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was probably one of the worst things\Nto ever happen to science fiction.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:21.26,0:19:26.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It took until the late 1940s,\Nafter Hiroshima,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:26.80,0:19:32.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for these new voices that had got\Na radical sense of doubt
Dialogue: 0,0:19:32.89,0:19:38.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to start to creep back into science \Nfiction, and that gave a brilliant era,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:38.33,0:19:48.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably the best era, of science fiction.\NFrom, say, late '40s to the mid-'70s,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:48.63,0:19:52.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when George Lucas brought out {\i1}Star Wars{\i0},
Dialogue: 0,0:19:52.98,0:19:56.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a piece of fundamentalist science fiction\Nif ever there was one,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:56.64,0:20:03.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and turned the clocks back to the\Nscience fiction ideas of 50 years before.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:03.61,0:20:07.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now we're in the position -- that whole idea\Nbetween science fiction and the real world
Dialogue: 0,0:20:07.71,0:20:12.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interacting with each other -- now we get\Nthings like {\i1}Black Mirror{\i0}, with the pig,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:12.46,0:20:17.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then, on Monday, that's no longer\Nscience fiction, it's the, uh ...
Dialogue: 0,0:20:18.42,0:20:26.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether this is the sort of level of\Nleeway between fiction and nonfiction
Dialogue: 0,0:20:26.36,0:20:28.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we wanted at the end of this period.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:28.44,0:20:34.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I mean, I have said in the past\Nthat I believe that the membrane
Dialogue: 0,0:20:34.14,0:20:39.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between fiction and fact is porous\Nand semi-permeable,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:39.36,0:20:44.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I have become used to \Nmy most ridiculous ideas,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:45.92,0:20:49.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether that be coming up with \N{\i1}V for Vendetta{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:20:49.100,0:20:53.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then suddenly seeing a load of \NGuy Fawkes-masked anarchists
Dialogue: 0,0:20:53.74,0:20:57.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,invading the world stage\N-- which is a good thing --
Dialogue: 0,0:20:57.62,0:21:04.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or having come up with the idea related to\Nmy film project, {\i1}Jimmy's End{\i0},
Dialogue: 0,0:21:04.70,0:21:10.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of having a sinister clown manifesting in\Nvarious locations around Northampton,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:10.71,0:21:15.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and returning from holiday and finding\Nthat a sinister clown had manifested
Dialogue: 0,0:21:15.12,0:21:21.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Northampton, at the end of my street,\Nabout a hundred yards from my front door.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:21.22,0:21:28.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You start to get the impression that, yes,\Nsometimes things can percolate through
Dialogue: 0,0:21:28.53,0:21:31.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the realm of ideas\Ninto the realm of actuality.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:31.73,0:21:36.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would say to Charlie Brooker\Nthat it's his own fault.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:36.90,0:21:40.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That, sort of, he shouldn't have written\Nabout British prime ministers
Dialogue: 0,0:21:40.76,0:21:45.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in an unholy relationship with a pig\Nif he didn't want this to happen.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:45.51,0:21:47.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Y'know? So ... happy now?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:48.28,0:21:51.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is assuming, of course,\Nthat it's not true,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:51.13,0:21:54.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which -- I like to think it probably\Nisn't true, and that Lord Ashcroft
Dialogue: 0,0:21:54.83,0:21:58.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is enough of a shit to have done that,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:58.46,0:22:04.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but part of me just sort of, \Nit fits a bit too well,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:04.02,0:22:08.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it just feels a bit too much like\Na real occult initiation sort of ceremony.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:08.89,0:22:11.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I remember somebody saying --
Dialogue: 0,0:22:11.86,0:22:16.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this might have been someone like\NMark Mothersbaugh from Devo --
Dialogue: 0,0:22:16.76,0:22:26.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,saying about the idea of \NDonny and Marie Osmond being married,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:27.85,0:22:33.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and he was saying, "Yeah, I know that\Nthat's not really true,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:33.44,0:22:38.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"but in my heart it's true."\NAnd I think that that is the way I feel
Dialogue: 0,0:22:38.93,0:22:47.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the revelations about David Cameron,\Nthat, we all know that in his secret soul,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:47.64,0:22:52.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,David Cameron is exactly the man who \Nwould do something like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:52.34,0:22:58.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If he has not done it literally,\Nhe has certainly done it metaphorically.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:59.31,0:23:04.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, yeah. I say,\Nwithout a shred of evidence,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:04.40,0:23:08.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I am going to believe that\Nfor the rest of my life.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:08.53,0:23:10.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lovely, thanks very much, Alan.\N[AM] You're very welcome.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:10.67,0:23:12.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We'll go forward to the 21st century
Dialogue: 0,0:23:12.70,0:23:16.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with that as the start of our\N[unclear] of imagination. Thank you.