WEBVTT 00:00:00.735 --> 00:00:03.152 (calm music) 00:00:16.530 --> 00:00:19.579 - As a child, my parents had reproductions 00:00:19.579 --> 00:00:21.480 in their house, 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:23.673 and some of them were really corny. 00:00:24.746 --> 00:00:26.747 (hole puncher snipping) 00:00:26.747 --> 00:00:27.930 (calm music) 00:00:27.930 --> 00:00:30.540 But in the guest room, they hung 00:00:30.540 --> 00:00:33.093 a textured painting by Van Gogh. 00:00:38.622 --> 00:00:41.913 So I scrambled up on the chair and I touched it. 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:46.050 That's what stuck to me, 00:00:46.050 --> 00:00:49.023 that painting would have a kind of texture to it. 00:00:50.138 --> 00:00:51.450 (calm music) 00:00:51.450 --> 00:00:53.553 It's almost a kind of exhilaration. 00:00:55.470 --> 00:00:57.450 The process of being an artist 00:00:57.450 --> 00:00:59.073 I find very fulfilling. 00:01:00.210 --> 00:01:02.695 I feel a sense of freedom. 00:01:02.695 --> 00:01:05.112 (calm music) 00:01:15.360 --> 00:01:16.953 The templates are on the wall. 00:01:16.953 --> 00:01:19.230 That's great, yeah. 00:01:19.230 --> 00:01:20.070 - We're decorating the rooms. 00:01:20.070 --> 00:01:22.478 - Oh, I like that, I like that. 00:01:22.478 --> 00:01:23.311 (Howardena laughing) 00:01:23.311 --> 00:01:26.223 - Do you wanna put some shapes on this one? 00:01:26.223 --> 00:01:28.650 - Mm-hm, let's see, that way? 00:01:28.650 --> 00:01:30.363 I like that way. - Yeah. 00:01:31.346 --> 00:01:32.346 Or that way? 00:01:34.213 --> 00:01:35.820 - I kind of like this. 00:01:35.820 --> 00:01:36.750 - [Erin] You kind of like that? 00:01:36.750 --> 00:01:39.250 - Yeah, 'cause I'm very, I love this wiggly thing, 00:01:40.380 --> 00:01:43.950 and I'm tempted to put a shape like this, 00:01:43.950 --> 00:01:46.560 but without that change there 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:48.577 on this edge, in here. 00:01:48.577 --> 00:01:49.760 - [Erin] Oh, okay. 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:52.380 - My intention is that it would pull over into this. 00:01:52.380 --> 00:01:53.820 - Gotcha, yeah, okay. 00:01:53.820 --> 00:01:54.993 - And then with this, 00:01:56.275 --> 00:01:57.981 I think I would like to put that up. 00:01:57.981 --> 00:01:58.814 - [Erin] Okay. 00:01:58.814 --> 00:02:02.231 - 'Cause I really want that dark to come through something. 00:02:02.231 --> 00:02:04.200 - [Erin] Okay. 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:07.290 - I see abstraction as an intuitive expression 00:02:07.290 --> 00:02:12.180 of someone's experience, both good and both bad. 00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:14.013 At least you get the general idea. 00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:17.173 Let's see. 00:02:17.173 --> 00:02:19.380 (calm music) 00:02:19.380 --> 00:02:20.670 When you work with abstraction, 00:02:20.670 --> 00:02:24.090 you're working with your own intuitive feelings about space, 00:02:24.090 --> 00:02:25.953 color, line, shape. 00:02:27.780 --> 00:02:30.420 Its purpose is almost a way of opening up 00:02:30.420 --> 00:02:32.193 our thought process, 00:02:34.860 --> 00:02:37.830 because you're reading someone else's language 00:02:37.830 --> 00:02:40.480 and you're interpreting it through your own language. 00:02:44.914 --> 00:02:46.890 Did you wanna do a painting that was a dimensional? 00:02:46.890 --> 00:02:50.193 Did you wanna do a painting that was about numbers? 00:02:51.690 --> 00:02:53.343 I felt challenged by that. 00:02:56.580 --> 00:02:59.613 The circular format is a kind of internal gravity. 00:03:02.010 --> 00:03:04.470 It's so compact and you can make something 00:03:04.470 --> 00:03:06.273 that has a lot of tension in it. 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:10.353 It's an iconic form in nature. 00:03:11.370 --> 00:03:13.770 And I could look at the planets, the stars, 00:03:13.770 --> 00:03:16.053 the moon, molecules, 00:03:17.370 --> 00:03:18.753 it's all around us. 00:03:19.768 --> 00:03:20.940 (calm music) 00:03:20.940 --> 00:03:23.095 I'm fascinated by the circle. 00:03:23.095 --> 00:03:25.170 (calm music) 00:03:25.170 --> 00:03:27.840 And so back in the early seventies, 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:30.330 I started spraying dots, through templates, 00:03:30.330 --> 00:03:33.573 which I made by punching out file folders, 00:03:35.580 --> 00:03:39.226 and I would spray through the template. 00:03:39.226 --> 00:03:41.258 (calm music) 00:03:41.258 --> 00:03:44.010 (paint spraying) 00:03:44.010 --> 00:03:46.923 I make the basic drawings for the spray paintings. 00:03:49.290 --> 00:03:53.179 The studio manager, Erin, handles the spray equipment. 00:03:53.179 --> 00:03:55.596 (calm music) 00:03:58.390 --> 00:04:00.570 My father was a science math person, 00:04:00.570 --> 00:04:03.840 and I don't remember getting a doll at Christmas, 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:06.300 but I was given a microscope. 00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:07.650 I was very curious, 00:04:07.650 --> 00:04:11.220 and I used a dropper to put some drinking water on a slide 00:04:11.220 --> 00:04:12.720 and looked under the microscope 00:04:12.720 --> 00:04:15.120 and there were all these microbes swimming around 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:16.830 in the drinking water. 00:04:16.830 --> 00:04:20.104 And it was all kind of at random, they were just all over. 00:04:20.104 --> 00:04:21.360 (calm music) 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:23.820 It was like drama 'cause things would collide 00:04:23.820 --> 00:04:26.670 or move around, or they wouldn't run into each other. 00:04:26.670 --> 00:04:29.970 And there was no particular reason 00:04:29.970 --> 00:04:32.460 other than they were just in water. 00:04:32.460 --> 00:04:35.820 So that microscope made a difference 00:04:35.820 --> 00:04:38.643 because I saw things in motion at random. 00:04:39.558 --> 00:04:41.975 (calm music) 00:04:50.070 --> 00:04:51.203 Oh my Lord. 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:54.453 Oh my God, Virgil. 00:04:55.860 --> 00:04:57.960 Here I am with Nancy. 00:04:57.960 --> 00:04:59.523 I don't know how old I was. 00:05:00.570 --> 00:05:02.700 Oh, this is amazing, it's my parents' house 00:05:02.700 --> 00:05:04.713 on Wayne Avenue in Philadelphia. 00:05:05.970 --> 00:05:07.293 That's incredible. 00:05:10.080 --> 00:05:12.060 This is my father. 00:05:12.060 --> 00:05:13.650 57. 00:05:13.650 --> 00:05:14.673 He loved reading. 00:05:16.530 --> 00:05:18.843 April 14th, my birthday. 00:05:20.780 --> 00:05:23.190 (pictures rustling) 00:05:23.190 --> 00:05:25.233 Oh God, it's really interesting, that's, 00:05:27.076 --> 00:05:28.226 my grandmother's house. 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:33.483 Oh, this is in Hamilton, Ohio, which is southern Ohio. 00:05:34.620 --> 00:05:38.163 And my grandmother had a little bit of land and a house, 00:05:39.270 --> 00:05:40.953 and she grew her own food. 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:45.470 I didn't know if there were grocery stores in Hamilton. 00:05:46.422 --> 00:05:48.839 (calm music) 00:05:49.740 --> 00:05:53.313 I was triggered in terms of my memory of circles. 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:02.073 My parents and I went to Ohio to visit my mother's mother. 00:06:05.220 --> 00:06:07.290 We drove to Northern Kentucky 00:06:07.290 --> 00:06:09.540 and there was a root beer stand, 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:11.223 and my father liked root beer, 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.203 and we were given chilled mugs the same as everyone else, 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:20.760 except there was a big red circle on the bottom. 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:26.130 And that basically meant that 00:06:26.130 --> 00:06:30.243 these were the utensils that you used for non-whites. 00:06:31.225 --> 00:06:33.642 (calm music) 00:06:35.970 --> 00:06:37.593 And that kind of shocked me. 00:06:41.370 --> 00:06:44.193 For years, I keep noticing circles. 00:06:47.370 --> 00:06:49.270 I mean, just the shock of seeing that. 00:06:50.244 --> 00:06:52.661 (calm music) 00:07:11.207 --> 00:07:13.740 I like drawing numbers, but I have no idea 00:07:13.740 --> 00:07:15.483 what meaning they have. 00:07:16.890 --> 00:07:19.653 So I call them nonsense numbers. 00:07:21.540 --> 00:07:24.660 It came from seeing my father write numbers 00:07:24.660 --> 00:07:25.863 as a mathematician. 00:07:27.810 --> 00:07:31.350 I think they're beautiful, beautiful things to see. 00:07:31.350 --> 00:07:33.810 It's an essential part of our life. 00:07:33.810 --> 00:07:36.030 It's almost like our heart. 00:07:36.030 --> 00:07:38.313 Without our heart, we have no life, 00:07:40.830 --> 00:07:42.180 where everything's numbers. 00:07:43.304 --> 00:07:45.721 (calm music) 00:08:13.410 --> 00:08:15.420 - You feel good with your dot colors? 00:08:15.420 --> 00:08:17.883 - Oh yeah, I love it, I love this pea soup. 00:08:19.284 --> 00:08:23.284 (people talking simultaneously) 00:08:25.830 --> 00:08:29.103 - Howardena, you used to handpunch all of your dots. 00:08:29.940 --> 00:08:31.973 - With one single hole punch. 00:08:31.973 --> 00:08:35.056 (Howardena laughing) 00:08:35.940 --> 00:08:37.920 This is my third year at Dieu Donné. 00:08:37.920 --> 00:08:38.997 - [Woman] This is your third year? 00:08:38.997 --> 00:08:39.960 - Third yeah, yeah. 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:41.183 - [Woman] Over a hundred pieces? 00:08:41.183 --> 00:08:43.143 - Hundred pieces, yeah, yeah. 00:08:44.850 --> 00:08:47.970 Well, I looked at a sample of colors 00:08:47.970 --> 00:08:51.677 and I like this, I call it like pea soup green. 00:08:51.677 --> 00:08:52.510 (everyone laughing) 00:08:52.510 --> 00:08:54.150 And then with the purple blue, 00:08:54.150 --> 00:08:57.120 and then it goes from like dark to light. 00:08:57.120 --> 00:08:58.323 I like the gradation. 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:02.730 - This might be silly question, 00:09:02.730 --> 00:09:04.800 but how Howardena, did you ever think 00:09:04.800 --> 00:09:06.513 that you would be this big? 00:09:07.350 --> 00:09:08.509 - Are you kidding? 00:09:08.509 --> 00:09:10.012 I don't even believe it. 00:09:10.012 --> 00:09:11.163 I don't believe it now. 00:09:13.170 --> 00:09:16.833 You know, when Amy sent that text to me about Hong Kong. 00:09:17.820 --> 00:09:19.945 I was like, oh my God. 00:09:19.945 --> 00:09:22.749 (Howardena laughing) 00:09:22.749 --> 00:09:23.610 (calm music) 00:09:23.610 --> 00:09:26.313 It's almost like it's too late. 00:09:29.490 --> 00:09:31.800 It sounds strange, but, 00:09:31.800 --> 00:09:33.813 when I would've appreciated it, 00:09:34.650 --> 00:09:36.213 I guess when I was younger, 00:09:42.908 --> 00:09:44.241 I felt isolated. 00:09:46.380 --> 00:09:48.230 At that point I didn't have a dealer. 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:54.330 Some of the rejections would be from white collectors. 00:09:54.330 --> 00:09:57.510 Why should I buy an abstract work from a Black person 00:09:57.510 --> 00:09:59.523 when I can get it from a white person? 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:03.450 This is what Black artists were running into. 00:10:05.490 --> 00:10:09.303 I worked at the Museum of Modern Art for about 12 years. 00:10:10.560 --> 00:10:12.843 It was mainly white and male. 00:10:14.970 --> 00:10:16.950 Hostile questions too were coming from 00:10:16.950 --> 00:10:19.830 some of the women art historians. 00:10:19.830 --> 00:10:23.643 "What did I do to qualify for my job at the Modern?" 00:10:26.400 --> 00:10:28.710 - You know, you really must be paranoid. 00:10:28.710 --> 00:10:30.240 Those things never happened to me. 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.140 I don't know anyone who's had those things happen to them. 00:10:34.650 --> 00:10:36.720 But then of course, they're free, white, and 21, 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:39.660 so they wouldn't have that kind of experience. 00:10:39.660 --> 00:10:44.460 - Free, White, and 21 was a video piece that I did in 1980, 00:10:44.460 --> 00:10:47.130 which was around the time when I had resigned 00:10:47.130 --> 00:10:48.633 from my job at the Modern. 00:10:49.470 --> 00:10:51.630 - However, she felt that a white student 00:10:51.630 --> 00:10:53.880 with lower grades would go further, 00:10:53.880 --> 00:10:57.060 therefore she would not put me in the accelerated course. 00:10:57.060 --> 00:10:59.490 - Well, I was kind of annoyed at the white women's movement, 00:10:59.490 --> 00:11:01.530 and I also wanted to deal with some of the racist stuff 00:11:01.530 --> 00:11:03.120 in the art world. 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:06.210 And so I decided to be myself 00:11:06.210 --> 00:11:10.560 and then to dress myself up as a white woman criticizing me. 00:11:10.560 --> 00:11:11.970 - You know, I hear your experiences 00:11:11.970 --> 00:11:14.880 and I think, well, it's gotta be in her art. 00:11:14.880 --> 00:11:16.320 That's the only way we'll validate you. 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:17.790 And it's gotta be in your art in the way 00:11:17.790 --> 00:11:19.143 that we consider valid. 00:11:20.400 --> 00:11:23.010 If it isn't in a, you know, used in a way, 00:11:23.010 --> 00:11:26.940 if your symbols aren't used in a way that we use them, then, 00:11:26.940 --> 00:11:28.989 we won't acknowledge them. 00:11:28.989 --> 00:11:31.710 In fact, you won't exist until we validate you. 00:11:31.710 --> 00:11:35.010 And, you know, if you don't wanna do what we tell you to do, 00:11:35.010 --> 00:11:36.900 then we'll find other tokens. 00:11:36.900 --> 00:11:39.180 - And I just did this narrative 00:11:39.180 --> 00:11:43.320 and it goes back and forth, and at the end, 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:45.993 I pull off like I'm pulling off my skin, 00:11:46.830 --> 00:11:49.593 but it's almost like I'm pulling off another layer. 00:11:52.410 --> 00:11:55.601 It was first shown in a show Ana Mendieta 00:11:55.601 --> 00:11:57.600 that I put together at A.I.R. 00:11:57.600 --> 00:11:59.820 It was way in the back and I had a little metronome 00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:01.923 so it would tick as you watch the video, 00:12:04.050 --> 00:12:06.960 and the whites freaked out. 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:08.700 They went wild. 00:12:08.700 --> 00:12:10.100 They were not happy with it. 00:12:11.700 --> 00:12:15.360 It's been shown in Berlin, Scotland, and Ireland, 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:17.910 and the Modern had it on view for a while, 00:12:17.910 --> 00:12:19.816 which is kind of ironic. 00:12:19.816 --> 00:12:20.649 (Howardena giggling) 00:12:20.649 --> 00:12:21.870 - Well, you ungrateful little, 00:12:21.870 --> 00:12:24.304 after all we've done for you. 00:12:24.304 --> 00:12:26.430 (calm music) 00:12:26.430 --> 00:12:30.243 - Even though early on, my work faced a lot of rejection, 00:12:31.740 --> 00:12:32.840 I just kept going. 00:12:34.920 --> 00:12:36.750 I just didn't give up. 00:12:36.750 --> 00:12:38.790 You know, I just kept pushing 00:12:38.790 --> 00:12:41.673 and the work matured in spite of a hostile environment. 00:12:43.590 --> 00:12:46.203 I was used to the work being rejected or mocked. 00:12:47.340 --> 00:12:50.970 I mean, it's an irony it's the same work I'm showing now. 00:12:50.970 --> 00:12:52.710 Literally, some of them are the same pieces 00:12:52.710 --> 00:12:54.781 and it's the opposite reaction. 00:12:54.781 --> 00:12:57.198 (calm music) 00:13:27.006 --> 00:13:30.450 I seem to have more inhibiting physical boundaries, 00:13:30.450 --> 00:13:32.973 but the art side of me is still there. 00:13:34.350 --> 00:13:38.280 And I can step out of my own restricted container 00:13:38.280 --> 00:13:40.863 and be able to express what I feel, 00:13:41.970 --> 00:13:44.403 whether I'm limited physically or not. 00:13:47.340 --> 00:13:50.193 It's a life source for me. 00:13:53.310 --> 00:13:56.250 It's just, I don't get tired of being an artist. 00:13:56.250 --> 00:13:58.560 I get tired of other things, 00:13:58.560 --> 00:14:02.013 but then I feel like I can come here and make art. 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:07.953 And it's not born of expecting recognition, 00:14:11.340 --> 00:14:12.603 I'm just doing my work. 00:14:15.938 --> 00:14:18.355 (calm music)