1 00:00:11,538 --> 00:00:14,134 One summer afternoon in 2013, 2 00:00:14,158 --> 00:00:17,286 DC police detained, questioned and searched a man 3 00:00:17,310 --> 00:00:20,402 who appeared suspicious and potentially dangerous. 4 00:00:22,076 --> 00:00:25,721 This wasn't what I was wearing the day of the detention, to be fair, 5 00:00:25,745 --> 00:00:27,568 but I have a picture of that as well. 6 00:00:28,322 --> 00:00:31,018 I know it's very frightening -- try to remain calm. 7 00:00:31,042 --> 00:00:32,134 (Laughter) 8 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,581 At this time, I was interning 9 00:00:34,605 --> 00:00:37,337 at the Public Defender Service in Washington DC, 10 00:00:37,361 --> 00:00:39,780 and I was visiting a police station for work. 11 00:00:39,804 --> 00:00:40,964 I was on my way out, 12 00:00:40,988 --> 00:00:42,980 and before I could make it to my car, 13 00:00:43,004 --> 00:00:45,305 two police cars pulled up to block my exit, 14 00:00:45,329 --> 00:00:47,660 and an officer approached me from behind. 15 00:00:47,684 --> 00:00:49,956 He told me to stop, take my backpack off 16 00:00:49,980 --> 00:00:53,056 and put my hands on the police car parked next to us. 17 00:00:53,490 --> 00:00:56,485 About a dozen officers then gathered near us. 18 00:00:56,509 --> 00:00:57,756 All of them had handguns, 19 00:00:57,780 --> 00:00:59,120 some had assault rifles. 20 00:00:59,144 --> 00:01:00,878 They rifled through my backpack. 21 00:01:00,902 --> 00:01:02,307 They patted me down. 22 00:01:02,331 --> 00:01:04,691 They took pictures of me spread on the police car, 23 00:01:04,715 --> 00:01:05,872 and they laughed. 24 00:01:05,896 --> 00:01:07,436 And as all this was happening -- 25 00:01:07,460 --> 00:01:10,710 as I was on the police car trying to ignore the shaking in my legs, 26 00:01:10,734 --> 00:01:13,069 trying to think clearly about what I should do -- 27 00:01:13,093 --> 00:01:15,162 something stuck out to me as odd. 28 00:01:15,186 --> 00:01:17,180 When I look at myself in this photo, 29 00:01:17,204 --> 00:01:19,039 if I were to describe myself, 30 00:01:19,063 --> 00:01:20,850 I think I'd say something like, 31 00:01:20,874 --> 00:01:26,263 "19-year-old Indian male, bright T-shirt, wearing glasses." 32 00:01:26,287 --> 00:01:28,568 But they weren't including any of these details. 33 00:01:28,592 --> 00:01:30,842 Into their police radios as they described me, 34 00:01:30,866 --> 00:01:33,498 they kept saying, "Middle Eastern male with a backpack. 35 00:01:33,522 --> 00:01:35,551 Middle Eastern male with a backpack." 36 00:01:35,575 --> 00:01:38,648 And this description carried on into their police reports. 37 00:01:39,179 --> 00:01:43,785 I never expected to be described by my own government in these terms: 38 00:01:43,809 --> 00:01:45,067 "lurking," 39 00:01:46,061 --> 00:01:47,292 "nefarious," 40 00:01:48,592 --> 00:01:49,752 "terrorist." 41 00:01:49,776 --> 00:01:51,719 And the detention dragged on like this. 42 00:01:51,743 --> 00:01:55,621 They sent dogs trained to smell explosives to sweep the area I'd been in. 43 00:01:55,645 --> 00:01:59,072 They called the federal government to see if I was on any watch lists. 44 00:01:59,096 --> 00:02:01,947 They sent a couple of detectives to cross-examine me on why, 45 00:02:01,971 --> 00:02:04,087 if I claimed I had nothing to hide, 46 00:02:04,111 --> 00:02:06,157 I wouldn't consent to a search of my car. 47 00:02:06,181 --> 00:02:08,241 And I could see they weren't happy with me, 48 00:02:08,265 --> 00:02:11,349 but I felt I had no way of knowing what they'd want to do next. 49 00:02:11,373 --> 00:02:14,270 At one point, the officer who patted me down 50 00:02:14,294 --> 00:02:17,824 scanned the side of the police station to see where the security camera was 51 00:02:17,848 --> 00:02:20,720 to see how much of this was being recorded. 52 00:02:20,744 --> 00:02:21,912 And when he did that, 53 00:02:21,936 --> 00:02:25,406 it really sank in how completely I was at their mercy. 54 00:02:25,430 --> 00:02:27,853 I think we're all normalized from a young age 55 00:02:27,877 --> 00:02:31,630 to the idea of police officers and arrests and handcuffs, 56 00:02:31,654 --> 00:02:35,596 so it's easy to forget how demeaning and coercive a thing it is 57 00:02:35,620 --> 00:02:38,525 to seize control over another person's body. 58 00:02:38,549 --> 00:02:40,594 I know it sounds like the point of my story 59 00:02:40,618 --> 00:02:43,060 is how badly treated I was because of my race -- 60 00:02:43,084 --> 00:02:46,204 and yes, I don't think I would've been detained if I were white. 61 00:02:46,228 --> 00:02:48,967 But actually, what I have in mind today is something else. 62 00:02:48,991 --> 00:02:51,709 What I have in mind is how much worse things might've been 63 00:02:51,733 --> 00:02:52,897 if I weren't affluent. 64 00:02:52,921 --> 00:02:55,839 I mean, they thought I might be trying to plant an explosive, 65 00:02:55,863 --> 00:02:59,032 and they investigated that possibility for an hour and a half, 66 00:02:59,056 --> 00:03:00,768 but I was never put in handcuffs, 67 00:03:00,792 --> 00:03:02,804 I was never taken to a jail cell. 68 00:03:02,828 --> 00:03:06,888 I think if I were from one of Washington DC's poor communities of color, 69 00:03:06,912 --> 00:03:09,335 and they thought I was endangering officers' lives, 70 00:03:09,359 --> 00:03:10,980 things might've ended differently. 71 00:03:11,004 --> 00:03:14,408 And in fact, in our system, I think it's better to be an affluent person 72 00:03:14,432 --> 00:03:16,720 suspected of trying to blow up a police station 73 00:03:16,744 --> 00:03:18,411 than it is to be a poor person 74 00:03:18,435 --> 00:03:21,092 who's suspected of much, much less than this. 75 00:03:21,116 --> 00:03:23,691 I want to give you an example from my current work. 76 00:03:24,069 --> 00:03:27,319 Right now, I'm working at a civil rights organization in DC, 77 00:03:27,343 --> 00:03:29,675 called Equal Justice Under Law. 78 00:03:29,699 --> 00:03:32,608 Let me start by asking you all a question. 79 00:03:32,632 --> 00:03:35,619 How many of you have ever gotten a parking ticket in your life? 80 00:03:35,643 --> 00:03:36,807 Raise your hand. 81 00:03:36,831 --> 00:03:38,777 Yeah. So have I. 82 00:03:38,801 --> 00:03:40,134 And when I had to pay it, 83 00:03:40,158 --> 00:03:42,189 it felt annoying and it felt bad, 84 00:03:42,213 --> 00:03:44,129 but I paid it and I moved on. 85 00:03:44,153 --> 00:03:46,844 I'm guessing most of you have paid your tickets as well. 86 00:03:47,376 --> 00:03:51,663 But what would happen if you couldn't afford the amount on the ticket 87 00:03:51,687 --> 00:03:54,857 and your family doesn't have the money either, what happens then? 88 00:03:54,881 --> 00:03:57,872 Well, one thing that's not supposed to happen under the law is, 89 00:03:57,896 --> 00:04:00,000 you're not supposed to be arrested and jailed 90 00:04:00,024 --> 00:04:02,120 simply because you can't afford to pay. 91 00:04:02,144 --> 00:04:03,948 That's illegal under federal law. 92 00:04:03,972 --> 00:04:06,900 But that's what local governments across the country are doing 93 00:04:06,924 --> 00:04:08,081 to people who are poor. 94 00:04:08,105 --> 00:04:11,025 And so many of our lawsuits at Equal Justice Under Law 95 00:04:11,049 --> 00:04:13,502 target these modern-day debtors' prisons. 96 00:04:14,531 --> 00:04:17,252 One of our cases is against Ferguson, Missouri. 97 00:04:17,276 --> 00:04:19,100 And I know when I say Ferguson, 98 00:04:19,124 --> 00:04:21,221 many of you will think of police violence. 99 00:04:21,245 --> 00:04:23,533 But today I want to talk about a different aspect 100 00:04:23,557 --> 00:04:27,023 of the relationship between their police force and their citizens. 101 00:04:27,047 --> 00:04:30,581 Ferguson was issuing an average of over two arrest warrants, 102 00:04:30,605 --> 00:04:32,612 per person, per year, 103 00:04:32,636 --> 00:04:34,884 mostly for unpaid debt to the courts. 104 00:04:35,756 --> 00:04:39,779 When I imagine what that would feel like if, every time I left my house, 105 00:04:39,803 --> 00:04:42,903 there was a chance a police officer would run my license plate, 106 00:04:42,927 --> 00:04:44,618 see a warrant for unpaid debt, 107 00:04:44,642 --> 00:04:46,772 seize my body they way the did in DC 108 00:04:46,796 --> 00:04:48,713 and then take me to a jail cell, 109 00:04:48,737 --> 00:04:50,371 I feel a little sick. 110 00:04:51,598 --> 00:04:54,754 I've met many of the people in Ferguson who have experienced this, 111 00:04:54,778 --> 00:04:56,565 and I've heard some of their stories. 112 00:04:56,589 --> 00:04:57,957 In Ferguson's jail, 113 00:04:57,981 --> 00:05:01,090 in each small cell, there's a bunk bed and a toilet, 114 00:05:01,114 --> 00:05:03,416 but they'd pack four people into each cell. 115 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,555 So there'd be two people on the bunks and two people on the floor, 116 00:05:06,579 --> 00:05:09,506 one with nowhere to go except right next to the filthy toilet, 117 00:05:09,530 --> 00:05:10,690 which was never cleaned. 118 00:05:10,714 --> 00:05:12,877 In fact, the whole cell was never cleaned, 119 00:05:12,901 --> 00:05:16,456 so the floor and the walls were lined with blood and mucus. 120 00:05:16,848 --> 00:05:17,998 No water to drink, 121 00:05:18,022 --> 00:05:20,726 except coming out of a spigot connected to the toilet. 122 00:05:20,750 --> 00:05:22,470 The water looked and tasted dirty, 123 00:05:22,494 --> 00:05:24,009 there was never enough food, 124 00:05:24,033 --> 00:05:25,581 never any showers, 125 00:05:25,605 --> 00:05:28,395 women menstruating without any hygiene products, 126 00:05:28,419 --> 00:05:30,113 no medical attention whatsoever. 127 00:05:30,137 --> 00:05:32,317 When I asked a woman about medical attention, 128 00:05:32,341 --> 00:05:34,736 she laughed, and she said, "Oh, no, no. 129 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,905 The only attention you get from the guards in there is sexual." 130 00:05:38,598 --> 00:05:41,318 So, they'd take the debtors to this place and they'd say, 131 00:05:41,342 --> 00:05:44,878 "We're not letting you leave until you make a payment on your debt." 132 00:05:44,902 --> 00:05:47,532 And if you could -- if you could call a family member 133 00:05:47,556 --> 00:05:49,697 who could somehow come up with some money, 134 00:05:49,721 --> 00:05:51,114 then maybe you were out. 135 00:05:51,138 --> 00:05:53,297 If it was enough money, you were out. 136 00:05:53,321 --> 00:05:56,639 But if it wasn't, you'd stay there for days or weeks, 137 00:05:56,663 --> 00:05:59,449 and every day the guards would come down to the cells 138 00:05:59,473 --> 00:06:02,860 and haggle with the debtors about the price of release that day. 139 00:06:03,385 --> 00:06:07,507 You'd stay until, at some point, the jail would be booked to capacity, 140 00:06:07,531 --> 00:06:09,481 and they'd want to book someone new in. 141 00:06:09,505 --> 00:06:11,066 And at that point, they'd think, 142 00:06:11,090 --> 00:06:13,845 "OK, it's unlikely this person can come up with the money, 143 00:06:13,869 --> 00:06:15,729 it's more likely this new person will." 144 00:06:15,753 --> 00:06:18,731 You're out, they're in, and the machine kept moving like that. 145 00:06:18,755 --> 00:06:20,781 I met a man who, 146 00:06:20,805 --> 00:06:25,072 nine years ago, was arrested for panhandling in a Walgreens. 147 00:06:25,096 --> 00:06:29,152 He couldn't afford his fines and his court fees from that case. 148 00:06:29,176 --> 00:06:32,172 When he was young he survived a house fire, 149 00:06:32,196 --> 00:06:35,169 only because he jumped out of the third-story window to escape. 150 00:06:35,193 --> 00:06:37,394 But that fall left him with damage to his brain 151 00:06:37,418 --> 00:06:39,853 and several parts of this body, including his leg. 152 00:06:39,877 --> 00:06:41,036 So he can't work, 153 00:06:41,060 --> 00:06:43,562 and he relies on social security payments to survive. 154 00:06:43,586 --> 00:06:45,272 When I met him in his apartment, 155 00:06:45,296 --> 00:06:48,175 he had nothing of value there -- not even food in his fridge. 156 00:06:48,199 --> 00:06:49,364 He's chronically hungry. 157 00:06:49,388 --> 00:06:52,867 He had nothing of value in his apartment except a small piece of cardboard 158 00:06:52,891 --> 00:06:55,130 on which he'd written the names of his children. 159 00:06:55,154 --> 00:06:57,727 He cherished this a lot. He was happy to show it to me. 160 00:06:57,751 --> 00:07:00,911 But he can't pay his fines and fees because he has nothing to give. 161 00:07:00,935 --> 00:07:04,301 In the last nine years, he's been arrested 13 times, 162 00:07:04,325 --> 00:07:08,656 and jailed for a total of 130 days on that panhandling case. 163 00:07:09,419 --> 00:07:12,467 One of those stretches lasted 45 days. 164 00:07:12,491 --> 00:07:16,897 Just imagine spending from right now until sometime in June 165 00:07:16,921 --> 00:07:19,717 in the place that I described to you a few moments ago. 166 00:07:21,376 --> 00:07:25,457 He told me about all the suicide attempts he's seen in Ferguson's jail; 167 00:07:25,481 --> 00:07:27,754 about the time a man found a way to hang himself 168 00:07:27,778 --> 00:07:29,438 out of reach of the other inmates, 169 00:07:29,462 --> 00:07:32,624 so all they could do was yell and yell and yell, 170 00:07:32,648 --> 00:07:34,388 trying to get the guards' attention 171 00:07:34,412 --> 00:07:36,405 so they could come down and cut him down. 172 00:07:36,429 --> 00:07:39,865 And he told me that it took the guards over five minutes to respond, 173 00:07:39,889 --> 00:07:42,157 and when they came, the man was unconscious. 174 00:07:42,181 --> 00:07:45,352 So they called the paramedics and the paramedics went to the cell. 175 00:07:45,376 --> 00:07:46,708 They said, "He'll be OK," 176 00:07:46,732 --> 00:07:48,936 so they just left him there on the floor. 177 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,254 I heard many stories like this and they shouldn't have surprised me, 178 00:07:52,278 --> 00:07:55,830 because suicide is the single leading cause of death in our local jails. 179 00:07:56,612 --> 00:07:59,599 This is related to the lack of mental health care in our jails. 180 00:07:59,623 --> 00:08:03,543 I met a woman, single mother of three, making seven dollars an hour. 181 00:08:03,567 --> 00:08:06,359 She relies on food stamps to feed herself and her children. 182 00:08:06,868 --> 00:08:08,412 About a decade ago, 183 00:08:08,436 --> 00:08:12,201 she got a couple of traffic tickets and a minor theft charge, 184 00:08:12,225 --> 00:08:14,993 and she can't afford her fines and fees on those cases. 185 00:08:15,486 --> 00:08:18,986 Since then, she's been jailed about 10 times on those cases, 186 00:08:19,010 --> 00:08:21,293 but she has schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, 187 00:08:21,317 --> 00:08:23,468 and she needs medication every day. 188 00:08:23,492 --> 00:08:26,530 She doesn't have access to those medications in Ferguson's jail, 189 00:08:26,554 --> 00:08:28,770 because no one has access to their medications. 190 00:08:28,794 --> 00:08:32,820 She told me about what it was like to spend two weeks in a cage, 191 00:08:32,844 --> 00:08:36,397 hallucinating people and shadows and hearing voices, 192 00:08:36,421 --> 00:08:39,015 begging for the medication that would make it all stop, 193 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:40,409 only to be ignored. 194 00:08:41,130 --> 00:08:42,976 And this isn't anomalous, either: 195 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,525 thirty percent of women in our local jails have serious mental health needs 196 00:08:46,549 --> 00:08:47,705 just like hers, 197 00:08:47,729 --> 00:08:52,246 but only one in six receives any mental health care while in jail. 198 00:08:52,270 --> 00:08:56,095 And so, I heard all these stories about this grotesque dungeon 199 00:08:56,119 --> 00:08:58,317 that Ferguson was operating for its debtors, 200 00:08:58,341 --> 00:09:00,634 and when it came time for me to actually see it 201 00:09:00,658 --> 00:09:02,612 and to go visit Ferguson's jail, 202 00:09:02,636 --> 00:09:04,676 I'm not sure what I was expecting to see, 203 00:09:04,700 --> 00:09:06,654 but I wasn't expecting this. 204 00:09:07,255 --> 00:09:09,094 It's an ordinary government building. 205 00:09:09,118 --> 00:09:11,574 It could be a post office or a school. 206 00:09:11,598 --> 00:09:15,290 It reminded me that these illegal extortion schemes 207 00:09:15,314 --> 00:09:17,402 aren't being run somewhere in the shadows, 208 00:09:17,426 --> 00:09:20,142 they're being run out in the open by our public officials. 209 00:09:20,166 --> 00:09:21,866 They're a matter of public policy. 210 00:09:21,890 --> 00:09:24,729 And this reminded me that poverty jailing in general, 211 00:09:24,753 --> 00:09:26,961 even outside the debtors' prison context, 212 00:09:26,985 --> 00:09:29,906 plays a very visible and central role in our justice system. 213 00:09:30,578 --> 00:09:32,790 What I have in mind is our policy of bail. 214 00:09:32,814 --> 00:09:35,366 In our system, whether you're detained or free, 215 00:09:35,390 --> 00:09:38,520 pending trial is not a matter of how dangerous you are 216 00:09:38,544 --> 00:09:40,792 or how much of a flight risk you pose. 217 00:09:40,816 --> 00:09:43,902 It's a matter of whether you can afford to post your bail amount. 218 00:09:43,926 --> 00:09:46,638 So Bill Cosby, whose bail was set at a million dollars, 219 00:09:46,662 --> 00:09:50,122 immediately writes the check, and doesn't spend a second in a jail cell. 220 00:09:50,146 --> 00:09:51,878 But Sandra Bland, who died in jail, 221 00:09:51,902 --> 00:09:55,900 was only there because her family was unable to come up with 500 dollars. 222 00:09:55,924 --> 00:09:59,311 In fact, there are half a million Sandra Blands across the country -- 223 00:09:59,335 --> 00:10:01,601 500,000 people who are in jail right now, 224 00:10:01,625 --> 00:10:04,286 only because they can't afford their bail amount. 225 00:10:04,310 --> 00:10:07,367 We're told that our jails are places for criminals, 226 00:10:07,391 --> 00:10:09,404 but statistically that's not the case: 227 00:10:09,428 --> 00:10:13,729 three out of every five people in jail right now are there pretrial. 228 00:10:13,753 --> 00:10:15,935 They haven't been convicted of any crime; 229 00:10:15,959 --> 00:10:18,470 they haven't pled guilty to any offense. 230 00:10:19,111 --> 00:10:20,455 Right here in San Francisco, 231 00:10:20,479 --> 00:10:23,869 85 percent of the inmates in our jail in San Francisco 232 00:10:23,893 --> 00:10:25,637 are pretrial detainees. 233 00:10:25,661 --> 00:10:29,046 This means San Francisco is spending something like 80 million dollars 234 00:10:29,070 --> 00:10:30,240 every year 235 00:10:30,264 --> 00:10:31,980 to fund pretrial detention. 236 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,419 Many of these people who are in jail only because they can't post bail 237 00:10:38,443 --> 00:10:40,689 are facing allegations so minor 238 00:10:40,713 --> 00:10:44,096 that the amount of time it would take for them to sit waiting for trial 239 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,172 is longer than the sentence they would receive if convicted, 240 00:10:47,196 --> 00:10:49,464 which means they're guaranteed to get out faster 241 00:10:49,488 --> 00:10:50,772 if they just plead guilty. 242 00:10:50,796 --> 00:10:52,355 So now the choice is: 243 00:10:52,379 --> 00:10:55,252 Should I stay here in this horrible place, 244 00:10:55,276 --> 00:10:57,386 away from my family and my dependents, 245 00:10:57,410 --> 00:10:59,887 almost guaranteed to lose my job, 246 00:10:59,911 --> 00:11:01,532 and then fight the charges? 247 00:11:01,556 --> 00:11:05,125 Or should I just plead guilty to whatever the prosecutor wants and get out? 248 00:11:05,149 --> 00:11:08,084 And at this point, they're pretrial detainees, not criminals. 249 00:11:08,108 --> 00:11:11,000 But once they take that plea deal, we'll call them criminals, 250 00:11:11,024 --> 00:11:14,404 even though an affluent person would never have been in this situation, 251 00:11:14,428 --> 00:11:17,302 because an affluent person would have simply been bailed out. 252 00:11:17,326 --> 00:11:19,416 At this point you might be wondering, 253 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,234 "This guy's in the inspiration section, what is he doing -- 254 00:11:22,258 --> 00:11:23,418 (Laughter) 255 00:11:23,442 --> 00:11:26,248 "This is extremely depressing. I want my money back." 256 00:11:26,272 --> 00:11:27,478 (Laughter) 257 00:11:27,502 --> 00:11:29,901 But in actuality, 258 00:11:29,925 --> 00:11:34,315 I find talking about jailing much less depressing than the alternative, 259 00:11:34,339 --> 00:11:36,775 because I think if we don't talk about these issues 260 00:11:36,799 --> 00:11:39,200 and collectively change how we think about jailing, 261 00:11:39,224 --> 00:11:40,728 at the end of all of our lives, 262 00:11:40,752 --> 00:11:43,883 we'll still have jails full of poor people who don't belong there. 263 00:11:43,907 --> 00:11:45,461 That really is depressing to me. 264 00:11:45,485 --> 00:11:48,909 But what's exciting to me is the thought that these stories can move us 265 00:11:48,933 --> 00:11:50,976 to think about jailing in different terms. 266 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,371 Not in sterile policy terms like "mass incarceration," 267 00:11:54,395 --> 00:11:56,381 or "sentencing of nonviolent offenders," 268 00:11:56,405 --> 00:11:57,571 but in human terms. 269 00:11:57,595 --> 00:12:02,180 When we put a human being in a cage for days or weeks or months 270 00:12:02,204 --> 00:12:03,648 or even years, 271 00:12:03,672 --> 00:12:06,021 what are we doing to that person's mind and body? 272 00:12:06,045 --> 00:12:08,803 Under what conditions are we really willing to do that? 273 00:12:09,329 --> 00:12:12,135 And so if starting with a few hundred of us in this room, 274 00:12:12,159 --> 00:12:15,203 we can commit to thinking about jailing in this different light, 275 00:12:15,227 --> 00:12:18,707 then we can undo that normalization I was referring to earlier. 276 00:12:18,731 --> 00:12:21,769 If I leave you with anything today, I hope it's with the thought 277 00:12:21,793 --> 00:12:24,225 that if we want anything to fundamentally change -- 278 00:12:24,249 --> 00:12:27,529 not just to reform our policies on bail and fines and fees -- 279 00:12:27,553 --> 00:12:30,606 but also to make sure that whatever new policies replace those 280 00:12:30,630 --> 00:12:33,681 don't punish the poor and the marginalized in their own new way. 281 00:12:33,705 --> 00:12:35,337 If we want that kind of change, 282 00:12:35,361 --> 00:12:37,886 then this shift in thinking is required of each of us. 283 00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:39,094 Thank you. 284 00:12:39,118 --> 00:12:42,788 (Applause)