1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,400
[music playing]

2
00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,200
Hi everybody. Welcome to Data and Society.

3
00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:13,789
My name is Sareeta Amrute

4
00:00:13,789 --> 00:00:15,700
I'm the director of research here.

5
00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:18,688
It's my sincere pleasure and honor

6
00:00:18,688 --> 00:00:21,731
to welcome you to Data and Society 
for this discussion

7
00:00:21,731 --> 00:00:26,172
inspired by Mary Gray and
Siddharth Suri's recently released book

8
00:00:26,172 --> 00:00:32,000
Ghost Work: How To Stop Silicon Valley 
From Building a New Global Underclass.

9
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,275
Mary Gray is senior researcher 
at Microsoft Research

10
00:00:36,275 --> 00:00:41,007
and fellow at Harvard University's Berkman
Klein Center for Internet and Society

11
00:00:41,007 --> 00:00:43,938
Mary also maintains a faculty position in

12
00:00:43,938 --> 00:00:46,870
the School of Informatics Computing 
and Engineering

13
00:00:46,870 --> 00:00:51,542
with affiliations in anthropology, 
gender studies and the media

14
00:00:51,542 --> 00:00:53,713
school at Indiana University.

15
00:00:53,713 --> 00:00:57,674
Her research looks at how technology 
access material conditions

16
00:00:57,674 --> 00:01:01,650
and everyday uses of media
transform people's lives

17
00:01:01,660 --> 00:01:04,280
and today she'll be talking to us
about her latest book

18
00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,150
written with Siddharth Suri
who is based in Seattle.

19
00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:08,590
Take it away Mary.

20
00:01:09,270 --> 00:01:14,730
[applause]

21
00:01:14,730 --> 00:01:16,537
Thank you.


22
00:01:16,537 --> 00:01:18,190
Thank you everyone for coming out

23
00:01:18,190 --> 00:01:21,697
and I see some familiar faces 
and I just really want

24
00:01:21,697 --> 00:01:24,280
to voice my appreciation 
for all the support I've had

25
00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:25,820
over the years doing this work

26
00:01:25,820 --> 00:01:28,717
first and foremost
to my co-author Sid Suri

27
00:01:28,717 --> 00:01:30,958
but to all the workers
who have given their time

28
00:01:30,958 --> 00:01:34,570
and let us into their lives
to learn about their experiences.

29
00:01:34,570 --> 00:01:38,280
This work wouldn't be possible without 
the time that they've given to us.

30
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:39,564
So with that

31
00:01:40,398 --> 00:01:45,299
I wanted to start by giving you a sense
of where this work came from

32
00:01:45,299 --> 00:01:48,569
and for me, I was thinking 
about my own research questions

33
00:01:48,569 --> 00:01:51,000
before coming to Microsoft Research.

34
00:01:51,300 --> 00:01:54,450
Most of them circled
around the question of

35
00:01:54,450 --> 00:01:57,600
how do we become more or less seen?

36
00:01:57,900 --> 00:02:03,315
How are we known and valued as people and
what role do technologies play in that and

37
00:02:03,335 --> 00:02:08,150
much of the heralding of the internet was
that we're going to become more visible.

38
00:02:08,150 --> 00:02:11,380
We're going to be able 
to speak our truth, hear all voices

39
00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,900
and much of my grounding in anthropology 
and critical media studies

40
00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:18,180
brings me to the question of how so?

41
00:02:18,180 --> 00:02:19,383
When is that not true?

42
00:02:19,383 --> 00:02:23,900
and what are the conditions under which 
people make that more or less true?

43
00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,650
So I come to this project 
with that background.

44
00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:29,800
And in many ways

45
00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,410
what I'm hoping to do is incite you to 
care about this world of work

46
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,085
that is more or less seen,
known and valued

47
00:02:38,085 --> 00:02:41,210
depending on where you are 
in this universe.

48
00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,851
It really started with coming 
to Microsoft Research

49
00:02:44,851 --> 00:02:48,603
and asking a basic question about 
how artificial intelligence is made.

50
00:02:49,100 --> 00:02:50,540
I had no idea

51
00:02:50,550 --> 00:02:54,044
and so when I started asking computer 
scientists and engineers in my lab

52
00:02:54,044 --> 00:02:57,887
what goes into developing 
algorithms and the models that are built

53
00:02:57,887 --> 00:03:00,350
to be able to advance
artificial intelligence.

54
00:03:00,350 --> 00:03:03,640
It turns out that there are a lot of 
people involved in that work

55
00:03:03,650 --> 00:03:07,340
outside of the coders and the engineers 
and computer scientists that are

56
00:03:07,340 --> 00:03:10,890
theorizing these, these
technological innovations.

57
00:03:10,900 --> 00:03:16,060
It's a lot of people who are
effectively cleaning and managing data

58
00:03:16,060 --> 00:03:20,787
the training data that become the models
for building algorithms out

59
00:03:20,797 --> 00:03:25,186
and there isn't a case of any 
artificial intelligence that exists

60
00:03:25,186 --> 00:03:30,076
that doesn't depend at some point in 
someone touching that data

61
00:03:30,076 --> 00:03:34,407
curating that data and taking something 
that's otherwise kind of

62
00:03:34,407 --> 00:03:38,757
structuralist nonsense and putting it 
into some structured sense

63
00:03:38,757 --> 00:03:43,240
that a computational process
could then model and learn from.

64
00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,900
So at the goal of this book, if there's 
nothing else you take from this book,

65
00:03:46,900 --> 00:03:52,024
it's to understand that artificial
intelligence always has human hands in it

66
00:03:52,024 --> 00:03:56,365
that we are benefiting from a lot 
of people contributing to advancing these

67
00:03:56,365 --> 00:04:02,177
technologies, even in cases where we might
fully automate one process along the way

68
00:04:02,177 --> 00:04:05,847
particularly as its impact

69
00:04:05,847 --> 00:04:10,047
or its application to a domain 
it wasn't expected to enter

70
00:04:10,047 --> 00:04:13,750
say language, like
text translation that's done in real time.

71
00:04:13,750 --> 00:04:17,820
If you're a speaker of multiple languages
and you're code switching

72
00:04:17,820 --> 00:04:21,400
odds are pretty good that the AI isn't
going to be able to keep up with you.

73
00:04:22,130 --> 00:04:26,210
So look at those cases where you then
have to bring people back into the mix

74
00:04:26,210 --> 00:04:29,500
to be able to develop a model that 
would be able to capture

75
00:04:29,510 --> 00:04:31,600
what kind of exchange 
is happening.

76
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,626
That's really the beginning of this book
is to understand who are the people

77
00:04:35,626 --> 00:04:39,964
who are doing all of this work and
it turns out that when you ask

78
00:04:39,964 --> 00:04:45,955
computer scientists and engineers often
their responses are I don't really know.

79
00:04:45,955 --> 00:04:49,885
I've never really met these people.
The beauty of this technology is that

80
00:04:49,885 --> 00:04:55,295
I don't have to meet them and
I say that now with all seriousness

81
00:04:55,295 --> 00:05:00,015
the sense is that this is a technological
innovation often called human computation

82
00:05:00,015 --> 00:05:04,785
or crowdsourcing the technique of being
able to thread a person into a moment

83
00:05:04,785 --> 00:05:09,910
of judgment where you need a person
to be able to evaluate or decide something

84
00:05:09,910 --> 00:05:12,765
that a computational process
can't quite figure out.

85
00:05:12,775 --> 00:05:17,563
Bring that person into that moment, that
judgment and then threading them into

86
00:05:17,563 --> 00:05:20,924
a computational process, an automated
process so that you can carry on

87
00:05:20,924 --> 00:05:22,643
with an output.

88
00:05:22,643 --> 00:05:27,090
So we're somewhat familiar with some of 
the applications they're little bit

89
00:05:27,090 --> 00:05:28,860
visible to you today.

90
00:05:28,860 --> 00:05:30,300
This is an iceberg.

91
00:05:30,300 --> 00:05:33,300
Most of you are familiar 
perhaps with your Uber driver.

92
00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:36,200
You've met them 
maybe you've chatted with them.

93
00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,125
You might be familiar 
with other platform services

94
00:05:39,125 --> 00:05:41,707
on demand services
that effectively

95
00:05:41,707 --> 00:05:44,237
are using the same technology 
of human computation

96
00:05:44,509 --> 00:05:47,971
to match a person 
who's able to deliver a service

97
00:05:48,260 --> 00:05:51,263
through a mix of
application programming interfaces

98
00:05:51,263 --> 00:05:53,483
that calls that person to the job

99
00:05:53,483 --> 00:05:54,708
whatever it might be

100
00:05:54,708 --> 00:05:56,708
whether it's to pick you up at the airport

101
00:05:56,708 --> 00:05:59,048
or to pick up some food 
and bring it to your door

102
00:05:59,048 --> 00:06:01,473
or if it's a content moderator

103
00:06:01,616 --> 00:06:03,840
And I think what's fascinating
is two years ago

104
00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:07,460
If I'd said the phrase content moderator 
or content moderation

105
00:06:07,460 --> 00:06:09,800
I would have just gotten blank looks

106
00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,260
How many of you know 
what content moderation is today?

107
00:06:13,260 --> 00:06:17,040
It turns out they're doing 
an incredibly important job.

108
00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,380
They are people who effectively curate

109
00:06:19,380 --> 00:06:21,924
look at pieces of text and images

110
00:06:22,113 --> 00:06:25,474
that are beyond the capacity 
of any computational process

111
00:06:25,474 --> 00:06:30,922
to analyze and evaluate and say:
ah, that's pornography or that spam

112
00:06:31,123 --> 00:06:33,400
versus someone sharing information.

113
00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:36,540
So it turns out that 
we're not that far along

114
00:06:36,540 --> 00:06:40,268
in being able to evaluate text and images 
to figure out

115
00:06:40,268 --> 00:06:43,700
is that content
that should or should not be there.

116
00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:48,250
You could say anything that's hard 
for a human to evaluate and decide

117
00:06:48,254 --> 00:06:54,610
is that misinformation? Or just 
a fact that I'm not familiar with yet?

118
00:06:54,610 --> 00:06:58,170
The odds are very good, 
a computational process isn't even close

119
00:06:58,170 --> 00:07:00,110
to being able to figure that out.

120
00:07:00,110 --> 00:07:04,029
If it's hard for a person to figure out 
it's going to be intractably

121
00:07:04,029 --> 00:07:09,370
a technically hard process
for computation to model.

122
00:07:09,370 --> 00:07:12,910
You have to have really certain
this or that

123
00:07:12,910 --> 00:07:18,590
yes or no to build code with accuracy 
to be able to automate something.

124
00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,803
So again take away how much this world

125
00:07:21,814 --> 00:07:25,903
that's completely dependent
on having people at a moment of judgment

126
00:07:25,903 --> 00:07:31,033
enter the scene like content moderation
and then look below that surface

127
00:07:31,042 --> 00:07:33,784
and that surface below that iceberg

128
00:07:33,792 --> 00:07:40,374
that is this spiraling growing expansive
world of services that effectively

129
00:07:40,374 --> 00:07:44,899
are building to keep a person
in a computational loop

130
00:07:44,899 --> 00:07:47,891
because it turns out it's 
much more efficient and effective

131
00:07:47,891 --> 00:07:52,800
to be able to match a person 
to a task like captioning and translation

132
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,991
or a task that might be image tagging
for a new set of images

133
00:07:56,991 --> 00:08:00,791
that you're trying to evaluate,
whether it's for training AI

134
00:08:00,791 --> 00:08:03,520
or that you want to do
a marketing project

135
00:08:03,521 --> 00:08:06,481
in all of those cases
all of these businesses

136
00:08:06,481 --> 00:08:10,780
that are probably unfamiliar to you
that are on this on this slide

137
00:08:10,781 --> 00:08:14,260
are quickly making the best
of a business model

138
00:08:14,260 --> 00:08:26,050
That brings contract driven task-oriented work 
to people mostly doing work in their homes, or if they're in a setting they're covered by what are called vendor Management systems.

139
00:08:26,050 --> 00:08:32,299
And again, they're people that you will never meet as an end consumer but that you benefit from every day.

140
00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:52,100
So when I'm asking engineers and computer scientists about this work of human computation and the role of people in the loop, it turns out that most of these businesses are effectively doing what these Engineers are doing, which is bringing people in as quickly as they can and then moving on to the next project.

141
00:08:52,100 --> 00:08:58,300
They're not asking who are these people under what conditions might be be working in most cases?

142
00:08:58,300 --> 00:09:02,600
They're working on contract for that specific task itself.

143
00:09:02,700 --> 00:09:07,700
So the moment of Engagement might not last more than a few minutes at best.

144
00:09:07,900 --> 00:09:11,100
So it's a pretty kaleidoscopic world.

145
00:09:11,300 --> 00:09:11,700
So

146
00:09:12,100 --> 00:09:13,300
At Microsoft research.

147
00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:27,500
I feel incredibly lucky to be around people who do reflect on this question of what are they building for the rest of the world and in many cases when I meet a group of people who are saying I don't really know who are the workers who are here.

148
00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:38,800
There's at least a subset of those folks who will say, I don't exactly know but you know, the technology really keeps me at a distance and then there was a third set that would answer fairly regularly.

149
00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:49,100
I don't know and I don't know if I want to know and as you can imagine for any anthropologists in the room, that's just that's you really want to pursue that question.

150
00:09:49,400 --> 00:10:02,300
What makes somebody uncomfortable about knowing who is on the other side of a screen what makes it seem an attractively socially uncomfortable question to find out about their work conditions.

151
00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:11,800
So when I met said SRI, he was really one of the first people who genuinely coming out of computer science wanted to not only know what we really

152
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:21,400
Work conditions people might be engaging but what their lives were like and so we started on this this journey and I don't use that word lightly.

153
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:39,000
It took us five years to develop a methodology for being able to bring the value of qualitative critical work that engages people in their everyday lives and figure out where you could integrate measurement and computational analyses to build out a picture of this world of work.

154
00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:57,600
So often will get this question of well, how big is this Market underneath that question is often people who feel like why should we bother carrying this is worth is going to be automated any day if you buy the beginning premise of this book and I hope you do this work isn't going away.

155
00:10:57,700 --> 00:11:05,900
The tasks will change but in fact we're building towards a world of a service industry Information Services knowledge work.

156
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,500
That isn't a niche job.

157
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,800
This is the dismantlement of full-time employment.

158
00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:21,700
The dismantlement of full-time employment for anyone who does creative work so we might not be able to see how large that market is arguably.

159
00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:23,400
We've never done a head count.

160
00:11:23,500 --> 00:11:37,900
There is no effective way to do a worker census of an environment that is by Design distributed Global and often doesn't have a category of work that people would recognize and resonate with where they could say.

161
00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:40,700
Yeah, that's me. I do that work.

162
00:11:40,800 --> 00:12:07,600
So this is both a world in which our old categories of what job do you do is being blown apart and it's a world in which we don't have any mechanisms for tracking and holding accountable the supply chain that's going into this world of work, but let's take some guesses here and some of this is drawing on on economics and the secondary literature about the possible size of this market right now.

163
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,100
We know that there's about an estimate of

164
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,600
About five percent of the u.s.

165
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:20,900
Population alone. According to Pew that's doing some form of online work so that there are at least in part.

166
00:12:20,900 --> 00:12:35,300
The work is sourced scheduled managed shipped and build through an application programming interface an API and the internet five percent that doesn't necessarily mean they're doing and their entire job online.

167
00:12:35,300 --> 00:12:40,100
It means that a form of income that's important to them is coming from one of these jobs.

168
00:12:40,300 --> 00:12:48,900
Now, this is really striking if you can take into consideration, we've only had the possibility of making an income from this form of work for about a decade.

169
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,000
So to have five percent of the u.s.

170
00:12:51,000 --> 00:13:08,700
Population already doing this work start thinking through the size of this Market the growth of this market and if that's not quite enough think about how large the global market for the businesses generating value will be by next year.

171
00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:11,100
It's a twenty five billion dollars.

172
00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:18,700
The street already and that's not a small number if you think about how it compares to other industries that are fairly mundane.

173
00:13:19,100 --> 00:13:52,500
So that iceberg that I showed you all of those businesses that are spinning up on below the surface of our visibility as consumers is building an incredible amount of economic value that up to this point doesn't seem to be moving to the other side of the screen to the workers themselves who are doing the work another projection here of thinking about the implications of dismantling employment is to imagine this is not the displacement or the full automation of occupations and work.

174
00:13:52,600 --> 00:14:02,800
It's the semi automation of work and being able to task a fi it that is the target of most of these industries and the technologies that companies are building.

175
00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:11,100
Everybody would like to figure out how to break down things like scheduling managing any sorts of appointments any of your work.

176
00:14:11,300 --> 00:14:28,900
Low figure out how to break that down and turn it into a task that you can hand off to someone else so that you can up whatever it is that is your main point of view or value right that this is again the object of most of the industry on building out the Technologies at the rate.

177
00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:33,100
We're going we're looking at 38% of jobs within the u.s.

178
00:14:33,100 --> 00:14:37,100
Moving to being semi-automated by the 2030s.

179
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:51,800
Now that might sound like a shocking number but let's just make it mundane that means taking most of office work knowledge work Information Services and turning it into contract work that's already happened in a lot of places.

180
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,700
So it's not as though this is so futuristic.

181
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,900
And in many ways this the goal of this book is to say it is not too late to

182
00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:05,200
Mine what this world looks like we're really just at the beginning but know that it's moving quickly.

183
00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:12,000
So the kinds of work that this entails again because it's because you can't see it.

184
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,700
It's often really hard to describe.

185
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,300
It's everything from editing copy editing content curation.

186
00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:38,500
The should be if anybody participates in these kinds of jobs, you might see yourselves in these these tasks taking surveys marketing design any sort of graphic design any sort of data entry and labeling which is a pretty labor-intensive cognitively hard job.

187
00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:49,400
If you're constantly looking at again data that's coming in that scraped from somewhere with not a lot of context and you're trying to figure out what would you call this material?

188
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,400
Is this analyzing somebody's attitude about a product.

189
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,600
How would you how would you assess that attitude?

190
00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:03,300
It's actually pretty challenging work and it goes very quickly kind of task by task.

191
00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:05,700
We were studying very specific.

192
00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:26,500
He's I'm going to just go through a bit of the methodology that we used but we were looking at companies that generate sales leads so you can scrape the web and get an idea of who your contact person might be if you sell air conditioners, but you're going to do much better doing your sales of you know, who you should call in that office turns out generating sales lead.

193
00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:45,500
That's a particular kind of on-demand ghost work being able to take what is otherwise just a web scrape of people's contact information and curating that list and figuring out who should I contact and then handing it over to a business that wants the best contacts that's a very specific vertical within this industry.

194
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:51,800
And then translation Ted has one of the largest projects open translation projects.

195
00:16:52,200 --> 00:17:06,098
That was the beginning of a volunteer community invested in making videos available for hard of hearing communities and for linguistic diversity, and it was the the heart and soul.

196
00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:21,800
Amara.org which is one of the companies that we one of the organizations that we studied and then the other kinds of tasks that again are becoming more familiar to some of you content moderate moderation classification tasks that are meant to optimize your search query experience.

197
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,598
So if you're typing in something and this will happen happen every election year.

198
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,600
If you have a new candidate up for election odds are pretty good.

199
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:44,300
If you've never seen that candidate before they had to do some work to make sure that when people were searching that term searching that name that it matched to the proper biography or persons official presence online.

200
00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:50,600
So it's it's kind of this renewal of a need for making sure the information is relevant.

201
00:17:50,600 --> 00:18:06,100
I love the example of how many of you remember a moment during the past elections when Romney made a reference to binders full of women right to be able to figure out should that be a trending topic because if you just think about that phrase that's a nonsensical phrase.

202
00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:15,600
Aside from who said it and so realize that took a lot of content moderators working very quickly to be able to identify.

203
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,400
Oh the context for that.

204
00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:21,000
Oh, it's an election cycle a candidate debate.

205
00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:25,300
Yes, trending makes sense that's happening below the surface.

206
00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:37,000
You'll never see it happen and it's not something that can be automated anytime soon as would be my argument and then lastly thinking about these mundane uses of location verification.

207
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,600
How many of you had a favorite restaurant that went out of business.

208
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:53,100
Last month odds are If It Moves somewhere the location needed be re verified and updated within search queries that's still very much the handwork of people below the API.

209
00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:55,700
So there's a lineage here.

210
00:18:55,700 --> 00:19:03,100
This is not so new and and we take great pains to point out that the tendency to treat contingent work.

211
00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:05,800
That seems like it's going to go away anytime.

212
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:13,700
Therefore not that valuable and something we don't need to care about in terms of our employment relationships.

213
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:47,600
That's old news. So if you think about the experience of the Industrial Age and peace work and the work that was literally something that couldn't be accomplished by the newly quickly moving Loom, but that could be taken to mostly Family Farms and in the United States context and be able to share that material that raw material and the material that's been created say a shirt and to have the button or the flourish of bows that could then be attached by a person.

214
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:53,400
That's the kind of work that the entire time the Hope was eventually that will be automated away.

215
00:19:53,700 --> 00:20:05,700
And yes, eventually the machines were able to attach the flourish the button the bows that didn't mean that the work entirely displaced other kinds of work that needed to be put on the table.

216
00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:11,000
This could go on for generations and did in manufacturing arguably.

217
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:22,600
The only reason automation can knock it out of the park is precisely because you can build the factory around the automated mechanical processes and get people entirely out of the building.

218
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:38,300
But in any case where you're working with people and effectively when you're trying to serve their interests and anticipate their needs you're in an entirely different world of required tasks on a person's time and cognitive ability.

219
00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:57,000
So if you think about the next generation of lineage here and the computers behind being able to put people in space or to be able to do some amazing technical achievements, we've always had these moments where the Assumption was.

220
00:20:57,100 --> 00:21:01,100
There's something wrote and on Creative about this work.

221
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:06,000
It can be done by an often is done by the same suspects generation.

222
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:16,300
Generation, but their work is not seen as integral to what is really valued and worth retaining or underwriting through full-time employment.

223
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:28,500
So for much of the women who are involved in the Cold War projects through NASA and through other Aeronautics institutions, they were on contract.

224
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:30,700
They didn't have full-time jobs.

225
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:44,000
They could be they could be released at any point and particularly before it was illegal to fire women because they were pregnant women could be dismissed as soon as they married because odds were good.

226
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,200
They would get pregnant.

227
00:21:45,500 --> 00:22:05,400
So thinking about this lineage is important to imagine who is often invited to take on these contract positions precisely because into the 60s there imagine to be the perfect temporary Workforce both able to do the work as in Kelly girls and selling Kelly girls as the

228
00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:19,100
Opportunity for business professionals to have someone take care of their needs and then quickly exit to bring in fresh Minds fresh bodies for the work that needs to be done around the office.

229
00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:57,800
So you might see a pattern developing here in this lineage of who is seen as replaceable or less valuable and therefore ripe for contract work as we move into the 90s late 90s to early 80s to late 90s and the internet and connected communication devices allow the workflow of office work that otherwise seemed the domain of professionals from accounting to human resources to any sort of financial services.

230
00:22:58,100 --> 00:23:06,000
It becomes quite easy to take that work and move it to other continents where you have enough linguistic capacity to be able to

231
00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:12,500
Take advantage of Labor Arbitrage a cheaper Workforce and still be able to get the work done.

232
00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:25,200
So what I'm hoping you see in this lineage is precisely the set of assumptions that say who's not so valuable here, who is the person that should hold this temporary job?

233
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:47,400
Because we don't necessarily need to care about them too much and what are all of the ways in which contingent work particularly the United States sets in motion a framing of contract work as disposable less important contingency becomes a value proposition to the business not to the worker so

234
00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:54,400
The way in which we went about studying this and I can go into this in the the QA.

235
00:23:54,900 --> 00:24:01,600
It's really hard to figure out how to find people behind a distributed system who are working globally in their homes.

236
00:24:01,900 --> 00:24:17,800
I'll be the first to confess that I'm someone who really likes to find the people that people assume or otherwise really hard to find because it turns out if you just ask people hey, where are those people they'll prickly quickly identify themselves and say, oh I do this work.

237
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,900
This was a whole other level of Challenge.

238
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:34,500
And so the way we went about it was to find four institutions organizations that were producing this kind of Labor and then to figure out ways in which we could meet the workers who were participating in these labor markets.

239
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:47,200
We work agnostically with the assumption that this is contract work unless it's otherwise called something else and we worked with the terms of the of the people who are engaging in these projects.

240
00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:48,400
So we studied

241
00:24:48,600 --> 00:25:01,900
So Mechanical Turk, which set the Baseline for how most of task-based work is framed and treated and the sidestepping of any legal Frameworks or classification that go with it.

242
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:25,600
And then we also looked at the universal human relevant system, which is the internal platform that Microsoft has please note every large tech company has an internal platform that you can't see that's larger than Amazon Mechanical Turk that has far more work than you could ever tracked because when it comes to the accounting of this Workforce, it's effectively the equivalent of paper.

243
00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:30,000
It's it's not considered labor Capital.

244
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:36,800
It's just an asset being bought and sold through a procurement Farm or through a procurement office.

245
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:48,400
So I say that coldly because importantly that's part of the legal framework in Arrangements that exist between businesses hiring outside of

246
00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:55,200
Their companies to be able to have full time labor on tap through other firms that are the employer of record.

247
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:03,600
So it's a really important lineage to understand how it pipes into the back of several of these companies the other two companies.

248
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,900
We looked at organizations that we looked at lead genius is a social entrepreneurship.

249
00:26:09,500 --> 00:26:26,400
It was a startup founded in Silicon Valley that generate sales leads and they have a global Workforce with a lot of recognition that trying to do the work that they want to have done in the United States is not something they could legally do without being classified as formal employers.

250
00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:36,600
So they've moved a lot almost all of their Workforce outside of the United States and then a fourth organization that we studied Amara Amara on demand.

251
00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:44,000
I'm fascinated by a more on demand and the one of the co-founders and organizers of it.

252
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,200
Dean Johnson is going to join us for a conversation later.

253
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:48,300
But what fascinates me

254
00:26:48,500 --> 00:27:05,700
Now tomorrow is that it started out as a volunteer community again doing captioning and translation of video, which is technically a very hard problem to solve to be able to look at video in any robust way and interpret what are the actions that are happening in that video.

255
00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:21,700
That's Way Beyond computation right now and this community of volunteers effectively became a magnet for companies that in organizations that wanted to be able to translate and caption their videos in other languages.

256
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,800
So company started approaching them saying can we just pay you to do this fast?

257
00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:39,300
So we created a labor market that from it's very beginning was organized by the volunteer energy and the attention to the workers doing the work for this community.

258
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:47,700
And I think it's a wonderful example of what we could be doing differently in terms of organizing these worlds of work around workers themselves.

259
00:27:48,600 --> 00:28:05,100
In looking at these four companies it became an opportunity to start from there and to put out surveys on each of those platforms to be able to reach workers themselves and ask them about themselves and at the end of those surveys to be able to ask them.

260
00:28:05,100 --> 00:28:17,100
Would you be willing to meet in person for an interview and the map that you're looking at for work that is in theory work that can go anywhere that's available to anyone.

261
00:28:17,100 --> 00:28:18,700
You should see some patterns.

262
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:43,700
There's something that maps onto the infrastructure of Outsourcing of places where there are not many job opportunities that are comparable to service work at retail stores or in other settings where the Pape the payment is about the same as what you might be able to get in these online markets so note the pattern because that should tell us there's something structuring again.

263
00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:46,100
Who does this work where they do this work?

264
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,100
What are the other opportunities that it?

265
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,500
Forecloses or suggest or not available?

266
00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:57,800
On top of those once we had enough people interested to do the interviews.

267
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:03,600
It just turned into old-fashioned anthropology in a lot of ways of go to where the people are meet.

268
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:12,400
People see who would be willing to allow us into their lives for a long enough period of time to be able to understand the ebb and flow of their engagement with this work.

269
00:29:12,700 --> 00:29:34,700
So it becomes really important for example to be able to be in India and see what happens when the monsoon season hits and how people then whether no pun intended the work that they have to do which is effectively being online and having to be hyper-vigilant to pick up tasks that are then delayed by whatever might be getting in the way of their internet access, for example

270
00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:50,800
The the layer and I you know hats off to Sid for figuring out the ways that he would be able to measure this world because I have to confess I wasn't I didn't really care that much about measuring I cared about if there's anybody experiencing this world that's enough for me.

271
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:59,700
And thankfully he helped me see there's a lot of value in being able to understand the distribution of this work the the

272
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,800
Patterns and so what I want to share with you is really the outcome of merging these two approaches.

273
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:27,200
What we found was in this is to me that one of the most striking findings in the book is that there's a real Pareto distribution of participation and when I say that like so many other power laws that are out there it turns out there's a concentrated few that are picking up and doing most of the work in these markets.

274
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:35,300
So a good depending on the platform a good ten to Fifteen twenty percent at most are picking up most of the tasks to be had.

275
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,500
And then there's this Core group of people that we call regulars that first group.

276
00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:51,900
We call them always on and they literally are they've turned this into an income stream that maintains their livelihoods and they might have other income streams and often they were working on multiple platforms.

277
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,200
They've turned it into full-time work for themselves the second group.

278
00:30:56,300 --> 00:31:02,200
There's about 30, you know, 30 percent at most but closer to 20 are what we call regulars.

279
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:03,700
They're stepping into this.

280
00:31:03,700 --> 00:31:08,100
They've sunk the costs of figuring out how to make these platforms payoff.

281
00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:22,600
They've learned what they need to learn and importantly they've connected with peers much like the always-on have they've connected with discussion forums other people who help them manage and figure out how to reduce their costs getting this work done.

282
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:35,900
They are the bench the Deep bench that is always able to step up into this labor market and pick up a task and do it and it is what allows anybody who's always on to step away and

283
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,300
Not have the entire Market just fall apart.

284
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:58,500
There's no way the argument we have here is there's no way to turn this into fully on time always on work to turn it into full-time work precisely works against what it is that people who have entered this world have said is important to them about entering this labor market.

285
00:31:58,500 --> 00:32:06,600
I'm going to come to this in a moment, but lastly and most importantly there's a good 70% of people who walk into this we call them experimentalists.

286
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,400
Try it and they're like peace out don't want to do this.

287
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:12,900
They have a read of a range of reasons.

288
00:32:12,900 --> 00:32:14,600
They decide they don't want to do it.

289
00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:24,300
All of them are still providing value both for the companies that are able to claim that they have 500,000 workers on On Demand.

290
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:45,100
So think about any time you've used Lyft or Uber being able to see enough of those little cars that tells you okay, I'll bother that's the value all the experimentalists are bringing to this market and picking up one task or two tasks at is precisely being available that they are offering being willing and available.

291
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:52,700
That's the most valuable thing that they're doing and I think it raises this question of and yes, isn't that valuable?

292
00:32:53,300 --> 00:32:55,300
Why isn't that considered valuable?

293
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:01,500
They're bringing an incredible amount of value certainly to the businesses.

294
00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:03,300
They whether all of the costs.

295
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:13,100
These are most cases the people who could not figure out how to tap into a communication Network to make this manageable often felt isolated and alienated.

296
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:24,800
So collaboration is key in this environment the thing that allowed people to find their footing to be able to make enough money to make this worthwhile.

297
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:31,900
And again, the trade-off being being able to do it on particular terms was tapping into a network.

298
00:33:31,900 --> 00:33:38,800
This is from an experiment that Sid Surrey and whenever co-authors manian developed to be able to identify.

299
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,500
What were the communities that people were engaged in discussion forums.

300
00:33:42,500 --> 00:33:47,300
The different colors are the different discussion forums for this is just for Amazon Mechanical Turk.

301
00:33:47,900 --> 00:34:00,100
So an incredibly robust Rich nuanced complicated environment of interaction and all of the small dots are this the solitary workers.

302
00:34:00,700 --> 00:34:17,800
So the vast majority of people who haven't connected with somebody are there still providing value, but you've got this tight cluster and groups who are organizing around specific communities who again really scaffold with each other and make this manageable work.

303
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:27,400
I wanted to share this quote from one of the workers talking about how important it becomes to be able to connect with other people doing this work.

304
00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:36,000
I think the Deep irony here is that the platform Builders assumed this is great work because you can do it alone and you don't have to interact with anybody.

305
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:46,199
You don't need any help what they hadn't anticipated perhaps because they didn't have enough anthropologists and sociologists in the room was that people might still be invested and having social connections.

306
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,000
The social connections are actually incredibly valuable to getting work done.

307
00:34:51,100 --> 00:35:05,900
It's just immeasurably valuable and that's that's that's part of this environment is figuring out how to recognize the value of that connection the motivators that came up most often in this might sound trite.

308
00:35:05,900 --> 00:35:17,500
It actually maps on entirely to the literature we have already about how people talk about their work what they value from work particularly when they decide to be self-employed or to try and freelance.

309
00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:18,100
It's about

310
00:35:18,300 --> 00:35:25,300
Trolling your time and I'd like everybody to stop using the word flexibility if you please because this isn't about flexibility.

311
00:35:25,300 --> 00:36:01,900
It's about having other constraints on your time and needing to control your schedule often having to do with Family Care Elder Care Child Care other work responsibilities and other interests having interest in other education other other Hobbies other Joys and in most cases people making doing that calculus of how can I make this kind of work sustained me so that I can make my life run the way I want it to run that's aspirational to be sure but it's certainly part of what motivates people to keep at this

312
00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:17,900
The second thing they're after is to be able to control what they work on and I'd imagine many people in this room share that they do just about anything to be able to Define what their project is rather than have somebody else tell them what to do and the third is controlling your work environment.

313
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:37,000
And if you're pushed to the margins controlling your work environment is not a nice to have so people with disabilities queer identifying people women who felt marginalized by the formal employment opportunities in their area all talked about this work being away of relief from those other constraints.

314
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:48,200
So when Carmela is talking about effectively being able to turn the this work because she can then pick up her computer and do it from anywhere.

315
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:56,000
I want to take very seriously and not dismiss her claiming that this is the kind of work that lets her live her ideal life.

316
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:10,400
It's how do we recognize take that at face value and still remained critical of a system that might still take advantage of her desire to do this work without somehow thinking that Camilla is the problem here.

317
00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:15,900
So I want to move into thinking about where do we go from here?

318
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:28,500
What have we learned from the way these workers not only survive this work, but make it meaningful that we could then use to redefine this world of work because I'll continue to say this is early days.

319
00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:34,800
We have an opportunity to really Design This purposefully with people at the center of our equation.

320
00:37:35,100 --> 00:37:37,600
So I want to focus on two things if you

321
00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:41,200
The book there's a the entire conclusion is just here's what we could do.

322
00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:55,400
It's my bucket list that comes from the bucket list of the workers we engaged but the one I want to focus on for this conversation is to think about what it means to redefine the social safety net and job classification.

323
00:37:56,100 --> 00:38:02,000
I'm just going to say it I would like to completely blow up employment classification as we know it.

324
00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:23,000
I do not think the defining full-time work as a place where you get benefits and part-time work as a place where you have to fight to get a full-time job as an appropriate way of addressing this labor market and particularly if we consider that globally there are so few people in the world who have ever had access to full-time employment that provided any benefits.

325
00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:37,400
So let's start organizing our classification and treatment of employment with all of the contingent work we've seen in this lineage and imagining that we will be those workers in the future and if that is the case

326
00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:42,500
The best thing we could do is say there are some Basics here that we're building a Commons.

327
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:49,600
We have a labor Commons that every Company benefits from being able to draw from they can dip in and out of this pool.

328
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,600
So, how are we going to support that pool?

329
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,400
How are we going to make it sustainable?

330
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,300
So that the value proposition isn't here.

331
00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:11,900
Let's just exhaust this pool and drain it because that's a tragedy we know of the tragedy of the commons apply the same logic imagine if health care for all isn't just a nice thing to do because a charitable it's like that makes business sense.

332
00:39:11,900 --> 00:39:13,500
You need a healthy Workforce.

333
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:19,600
You need people to be able to step in and out of it to be able to make it sustainable continuing ed.

334
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:26,800
There wasn't a person that we interviewed who didn't talk about how often they were going to online resources to be able to continue exploring.

335
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:34,000
What were the kinds of materials they needed to follow up on and choose to read be able to do their neck next project.

336
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,500
We all benefit from being able to do that.

337
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:37,500
Everybody had a

338
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:55,900
Baseline of a liberal arts education the should be the big news is a liberal arts education and learning how to learn is the bass bass line for every worker in this market because it's creative work all of us had to learn how to learn as that Baseline and then build from there.

339
00:39:56,100 --> 00:39:58,100
This is not specialized work.

340
00:39:58,300 --> 00:40:00,900
This is using your brain all the time.

341
00:40:01,500 --> 00:40:12,800
So the basic education that comes with critical thinking is key and then being able to make everything else available available becomes critical and then thinking about co-working spaces.

342
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:31,900
I just want to leave you with this Vision when I saw all of the home office setups of everybody we interviewed and at the end of the day thought of the health and safety administration and what our workplace around health and safety was set up to do it was to prevent Public Health crises.

343
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:37,500
We have a Public Health crisis and people setting up their home offices and not having resources to do it.

344
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,000
A way that's healthy.

345
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:46,200
So I know that sounds small, but every municipality could have co-working space that is thinking public health.

346
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,800
That's an intervention at the public health level.

347
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:54,700
Everybody should be able to get to a space where they can get relief for their back for their neck again sounds trite.

348
00:40:54,700 --> 00:40:57,500
But if you're doing office knowledge work, it's critical.

349
00:40:58,300 --> 00:41:01,300
And then lastly I want to dwell on this notion of a retainer.

350
00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:06,100
So there's a lot of conversation about Universal basic income as a solution here.

351
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:29,700
What frustrates me most is the framing of that of that suggestion is that these are the poor souls who can't outrun the robots that doesn't really account for how much what we really need is to retain the cognitive and creative capacity of people to be available to businesses to each other for service work.

352
00:41:29,900 --> 00:41:37,400
So people should be on a retainer for sure give everybody who's a working-age adults a retainer that says here's your base.

353
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,900
Line so that you don't have to think about paid leave or unemployment.

354
00:41:41,900 --> 00:42:05,200
But that literally you have what sustains you to be able to step away when you need to step away have children take care of someone and at the same time know that you are going to have the financial means to get back into that comments right very different attitude than Universal basic income the idea that somehow the poor are going to rise against us.

355
00:42:05,300 --> 00:42:10,100
And therefore we need to give them some some small amount of money completely misses.

356
00:42:10,100 --> 00:42:11,800
Where is this economy headed?

357
00:42:11,900 --> 00:42:13,400
It's a service economy.

358
00:42:13,700 --> 00:42:20,200
It's an information service and Care economy where we're caring for each other and so to be able to do that.

359
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:21,600
We really have to imagine.

360
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:28,500
How would we give everybody the basic support financially to do that to be able to come and go in that work?

361
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:38,600
So the last thing we have to do is on us if you use any of these Services now is the time and today is a great day to do it.

362
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,400
There's a strike by Lyft and Uber drivers.

363
00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:59,300
If you're a consumer of any ride hailing app be thinking about critically if you're somebody who consumes with care if you think about where you buy your clothes or buy your food, there's nothing small about that movement consumer advocacy and boycotting have been incredibly powerful.

364
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:27,200
They led to the Bangladesh Accord which was the beginning of holding companies accountable for the long supply chain involved in getting the shirts on our backs and in thinking about agriculture and places where knowing the supply chain became critical to making sure the quality of food, but the quality of people's work conditions growing that food was something everybody could know and then make your choices and that will never be enough.

365
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:29,000
This is not a land of

366
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:34,600
Businesses be kind to workers or let consumers be self-interested consumers.

367
00:43:34,900 --> 00:43:41,600
It's about setting up the possibility for the right regulation and classification for employment of the future.

368
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:48,000
So the key takeaway other than a I always requires people.

369
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,100
So we're not getting rid of them.

370
00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:52,100
Anytime soon is that this is a Commons.

371
00:43:52,500 --> 00:44:01,700
This is a labor Commons that relies on people coming in and out and what will it take for us to be able to support and value labor?

372
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,300
No matter where it happens.

373
00:44:03,300 --> 00:44:10,900
No matter how many hours somebody puts in because in fact the value of these markets it's aggregating up what we do.

374
00:44:11,500 --> 00:44:17,900
It is literally the aggregation of everybody's input and from there what it's providing.

375
00:44:17,900 --> 00:44:22,000
So think Uber--it's all of those drivers being available to you.

376
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,900
It's not just the one driver who took you to the airport.

377
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:28,900
So to be able to value all of the aggregation of that labor.

378
00:44:29,100 --> 00:44:38,000
And say what will it take to say each of the people participating in that are equally important to our livelihoods to our lives.

379
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:44,780
And with that I want to thank my collaborators because there's nothing like a book about this kind of work

380
00:44:44,780 --> 00:44:50,700
to make you hopefully always aware of how much-- everything that went into.

381
00:44:50,700 --> 00:44:55,802
This book came from an 
incredibly rich team of people

382
00:44:55,802 --> 00:44:56,802
bringing a range of expertise

383
00:44:56,802 --> 00:45:00,575
from Greg Minton, who made 
the beautiful maps

384
00:45:00,575 --> 00:45:06,352
to all the research assistants who were 
involved in doing the fact checking

385
00:45:06,352 --> 00:45:10,809
to the key research assistants that we 
had in India to be able to maintain

386
00:45:10,809 --> 00:45:14,159
the contacts with the people 
we had met through fieldwork

387
00:45:14,159 --> 00:45:19,158
so there wasn't a person on this team
who didn't do something integral that

388
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:23,236
if they weren't here I don't know that this
book would be here either, so with that,

389
00:45:23,236 --> 00:45:24,136
thank you

390
00:45:24,142 --> 00:45:31,672
[Applause]

391
00:45:37,888 --> 00:45:39,888
Thank you Mary that was amazing

392
00:45:39,981 --> 00:45:43,581
I'd like to invite Dean Jansen to 
join us at the front of the room

393
00:45:43,581 --> 00:45:45,409
Dean is the executive director

394
00:45:45,409 --> 00:45:50,242
and chief executive officer of the 
Participatory Culture Foundation

395
00:45:50,249 --> 00:45:53,019
The parent organization of 
Amara On Demand

396
00:45:53,019 --> 00:45:57,143
co-leading PCF with Aleli Alcala

397
00:45:59,611 --> 00:46:01,168
Amara is featured in <i>Ghost Work</i>

398
00:46:01,555 --> 00:46:03,589
and we're thrilled to welcome 
him into the conversation.

399
00:46:04,619 --> 00:46:06,738
so as moderator I'm

400
00:46:06,738 --> 00:46:09,139
gonna take the host privileges of asking

401
00:46:09,139 --> 00:46:11,677
a few questions of Dean and then Mary

402
00:46:11,679 --> 00:46:14,799
and then I'll open it up to the floor
for a discussion

403
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,043
Dean maybe I'll start with you
if you don't mind OK?

404
00:46:19,043 --> 00:46:21,524
If you could tell us 
a little bit about what's

405
00:46:21,524 --> 00:47:11,051
changed for Amara 
since the book was

406
00:47:11,051 --> 00:47:13,608
sure yeah this was a great question

407
00:47:13,608 --> 00:47:49,972
and one that you know

408
00:47:49,972 --> 00:47:52,349
thinking about what has changed

409
00:47:52,349 --> 00:47:55,419
as an organization 
we've gotten bigger

410
00:47:55,673 --> 00:47:56,673
When we started and when 
kind of AOD was first

411
00:47:58,181 --> 00:47:59,181
starting I think we were a staff of
about 9 to 12 people

412
00:48:03,198 --> 00:48:04,198
the initial group of folks that 
were doing the translation

413
00:48:13,232 --> 00:48:13,271
around 200 and today, 
the staff is closer to 30

414
00:48:13,271 --> 00:48:13,310
there are thousands of different
folks who have signed on

415
00:48:13,310 --> 00:48:13,388
and her are working with with AOD at this point

416
00:48:13,388 --> 00:48:13,545
and then as far as 
just them the marketplace

417
00:48:13,545 --> 00:48:13,859
that's something that you know it

418
00:48:13,859 --> 00:48:14,486
when we began there was obviously 
a robust translation marketplace

419
00:48:14,486 --> 00:48:15,486
but the audiovisual subtitling and 
dubbing side of things


420
00:48:15,740 --> 00:48:16,740
was still pretty nascent and 


421
00:48:16,994 --> 00:48:17,994
that's really starting to pick up
more and more today

422
00:48:18,249 --> 00:48:19,249
so those are two areas that 
have changed significantly.


423
00:48:23,266 --> 00:48:24,266
Mm-hmm.

424
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:25,520
one thing that Mary
talks about in the book

425
00:48:25,774 --> 00:48:26,774
is this idea of the double bottom line 


426
00:48:27,028 --> 00:48:28,028
and she talks about that 
specifically when it comes to Amara

427
00:48:28,283 --> 00:48:28,910
which tries to create fair and
collaborative labor practices for people

428
00:48:28,910 --> 00:48:29,537
who are doing translation 
and subtitle work

429
00:48:29,537 --> 00:48:30,537
and so what I wanted to ask you
Dean is

430
00:48:30,791 --> 00:48:31,418
how do you respond to people who say that 
the double bottom line is a nice idea


431
00:48:31,418 --> 00:48:31,574
but it's really not practical...

432
00:48:31,574 --> 00:48:31,731
that in fact a business like yours can't 
sustain itself with that model in place

433
00:48:31,731 --> 00:48:31,888
yeah that's that's a
great question and one that I think

434
00:48:31,888 --> 00:48:31,966
might be answered well with another
question, which is,

435
00:48:31,966 --> 00:48:32,045
what does it mean to be sustainable

436
00:48:32,045 --> 00:48:32,672
from organization to
organization ?

437
00:48:32,672 --> 00:48:32,986
Again, in the in the space
that we're in,

438
00:48:32,986 --> 00:48:33,143
in translation, 
we saw early on 


439
00:48:33,143 --> 00:48:33,300
these kind of more established
players that had very high margins.

440
00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:38,800
And so again just a question of 
how do you define sustainability–

441
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:39,300
sustainability for whom and for what?

442
00:48:39,300 --> 00:48:39,800
I think if you're asking more maybe about
the lower margin end of things

443
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:40,800
we're talking about some companies 
that are the biggest and

444
00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:54,900
most powerful and profitable
in the history of the planet.

445
00:48:55,900 --> 00:49:04,200
And so I think it's a question less 
– in our eyes at least –

446
00:49:04,950 --> 00:49:05,950
of "is it sustainable?" and more 
a question make it sustainable?"

447
00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:12,000
I'll just name mturk as 
one of those companies

448
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,000
since Dean was too polite to say it.

449
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:14,300
Another question I 
wanted to ask about is

450
00:49:14,300 --> 00:49:20,200
really playing off of what Mary was 
talking about at the end of her talk.

451
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,000
We can think about consumer advocacy,

452
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:35,700
and we can think also about regulation. 
In your mind from where you sit

453
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:36,650
what are the possibilities and limits on 
what a business enterprise can do

454
00:49:36,650 --> 00:49:37,300
to value and protect micro labor?

455
00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:39,500
Hmm another great question.

456
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,500
I think, well, let's see.

457
00:49:44,500 --> 00:50:11,400
So as far as the limitations go, 
I think there are a lot of things

458
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:11,650
that organizations can and 
should be doing.

459
00:50:11,650 --> 00:50:11,900
We were kind of joking about 
– not joking but –

460
00:50:11,900 --> 00:50:12,150
a couple of weeks ago we were 
talking about how low the bar is,

461
00:50:12,150 --> 00:50:12,275
where the bar is to recognize that 
these are human beings doing this work.

462
00:50:12,275 --> 00:50:12,337

Early early on when speaking with Mary,

463
00:50:12,337 --> 00:50:12,400
one of the things that really struck me 
was her describing conversations

464
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:20,000
she would have, as she 
mentioned, with engineers

465
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,000
who really didn't see where all these 
layers existed with human labor in them.

466
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:38,400
So to me and many ways the work that 
Mary and Sid and all the people

467
00:50:38,550 --> 00:50:39,125
that have made this this book possible 
all the people that Mary spoke with

468
00:50:39,125 --> 00:50:39,700
shining a light on it and making it 
visible as the first step in figuring out.

469
00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:40,600
I think I've just 
skipped your question,

470
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:48,600
but in terms of zooming out and looking at societally what can we do and how can we accomplish some of these things?

471
00:50:48,800 --> 00:51:03,900
Just that first step of having some recognition of who and where people are is really important but obviously on an individual organizational level there is a ton that can be be done and you give us a few just a few examples from

472
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:12,200
you're sure yeah, so let's see in terms of

473
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:29,100
I mean again providing people space to communicate and work with one another one of the things that we we found in Translation was there's this kind of stereotype of the Lonely translator someone who is working in an isolated sort of and in many ways.

474
00:51:29,100 --> 00:51:30,400
That's again.

475
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,000
I don't I'm not a translator.

476
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:43,900
So this is just my learning and understanding of it but but historically people do it has been a more isolated kind of work.

477
00:51:44,500 --> 00:51:59,700
So for us bringing the collaborative the collaborative side of the tools and platform that we're providing and building to continue listening to what sorts of things people need to do their work better and to collaborate more effectively.

478
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,600
That's been something that's been that's kind of the bread and butter of some of what we've been doing.

479
00:52:05,500 --> 00:52:07,500
Thank you being cognizant of time.

480
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,800
I will just ask Mary a few short questions and then open it up to the floor.

481
00:52:12,500 --> 00:52:16,800
So marry one of the key Concepts in your book.

482
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,000
Is this Paradox of automations Last Mile?

483
00:52:20,500 --> 00:52:34,800
Could you pull that out for us a little bit and maybe relate it to the lineage of contract contingent labor that you put up for us which in your book actually very interestingly slut starts with the experience of slavery in the United States.

484
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:52,300
Yeah, I mean to think about this Paradox in many ways is to Grapple with what has been the use of the Lion's Share of manual labor for example, and an early days with you know, if we think about what defines modernity what defines our modern era.

485
00:52:52,500 --> 00:52:58,600
It's imagining we're going to get our hands out of the soil and be able to put our minds to work.

486
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:07,600
It's an erudite notion of what does advancement look like what is progress and progress driven by technology?

487
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:14,100
And so the Paradox is that as we strive to pull ourselves out of manual labor.

488
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:26,700
I believe we start recognizing that it actually takes quite a bit of creativity and complexity to be able to do any Enterprise to be able to boot to do anything productive.

489
00:53:26,700 --> 00:53:35,200
So starting starting the lineage with slavery in the book is to say that was really our first labor law in the United States it

490
00:53:35,400 --> 00:54:14,200
Find who could be owned who could be used in a way that only treated their bodies as valuable and didn't imagine that any kind of work that we do involves a human capacity not to be too humanist here but a human capacity to be able to bring creativity to be able to bring responding to spontaneity to whatever we're doing so that moment of delaying recognizing the value of the real deep integration and of creativity with everything that we do I believe that is this moment.

491
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,600
It's this Reckoning with a paradox.

492
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:21,900
We keep introducing of thinking we're just going to we're going to get the thinking and the talking out of it.

493
00:54:22,700 --> 00:54:35,200
It's just going to be something we can automate and then we're just left with things that are really hard, you know, the professional class will be able to do the really hard work it throws to the wind the

494
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:44,500
Dear that taking care of if you've ever taken care of an elderly parent that takes a lot of thinking a lot of creativity.

495
00:54:44,500 --> 00:55:05,500
There's a beautiful book that really for me sets up the discussion of the Paradox and it's some by levying murnane their computer scientists and economists who talked about the new division of labor and they were trying to analyze what is it that a computational process can do that a human and what is it that a human can do that a really distinct?

496
00:55:05,500 --> 00:55:06,600
What is that Division?

497
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:12,900
And so we're trying to to theorize why it is as we strive to automate things.

498
00:55:12,900 --> 00:55:28,700
We keep discovering a new that the capacity to think creativity creatively is in the thick of it and that as we keep pushing to automate and reaching for having something else do things for us.

499
00:55:28,900 --> 00:55:34,900
We'll keep discovering those bits that are really the heart and soul of what what humans do which is

500
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:43,400
Since each other's needs anticipate and I joke often be able to apologize when we get it wrong like computation can't do that.

501
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,400
I'm going to just as well. The one last question.

502
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,500
I know there's a lot of people waiting one thing.

503
00:55:50,500 --> 00:55:52,800
I wanted to underline which I loved in your presentation.

504
00:55:52,800 --> 00:56:02,300
And in the book is the way that you use the task of Mechanical Turk itself to set tasks to gain to get research for the book.

505
00:56:02,300 --> 00:56:03,800
I think this is a brilliant methodology.

506
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:22,000
So I just want to put a big fat line under that and then and then based on that I wanted to ask you if you could pull out for us the significance for you in doing transnational comparative work, especially as it relates to identifying the challenges and opportunities in labor organizing.

507
00:56:23,500 --> 00:56:45,400
Yeah. No, I mean I think from the to be clear starting with India and the United States in some ways was following the labor markets that Amazon Mechanical Turk had created by paying in both cash and rupees they had built this labor market by Design without probably much thought certainly about the kinds of work forces.

508
00:56:45,400 --> 00:57:16,700
It would create and I in drawing that comparison it meant we were constantly able to pull out the places where connection broke down the kinds of nationalisms that would spark around different work groups, for example, so the transnational comparison gives us a chance to see where two people throw boundaries back up and I thought was most striking in India how quickly a kind of panned in the end way of orienting to work across all the platforms also came to the Forefront.

509
00:57:16,700 --> 00:57:23,000
So the number of women and men who would start referring to each other as sister and brother to navigate the gender politics of

510
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:58,800
King and settings with somebody of a different gender the the amazing use of English as a way of navigating linguistic boundaries and what that can mean the meshing and sidestepping of religious and cast differences those complexities could come out and in some ways being able to see the complexities around class and race that played out in the United States in different ways really came to the fore with that comparison the technique of putting the surveys online.

511
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:09,200
I think in many ways. I'm really dedicated to us always imagining that anthropology sociology of engaging people's lives means getting in their lives.

512
00:58:09,700 --> 00:58:19,800
I have a I have a difficult time feeling like stopping at a discussion forum and letting that stand in for people's experiences can answer the questions.

513
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:22,600
I'm interested in I think it has everything to do with the question you're asking

514
00:58:23,100 --> 00:58:27,700
For the most part the question we were asking was what does the rest of your life look like?

515
00:58:27,900 --> 00:58:41,100
And so there was really no way to ask that without moving from those platforms into the their living rooms into the cafes they circulated in and that that became the the methodology.

516
00:58:42,500 --> 00:58:46,600
Thank you who would like to ask a question Dana?

517
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:52,700
This is Mary's fault. She set me up.

518
00:58:52,700 --> 00:59:23,100
She was like you have to ask a question was like I was all right ready so much of what you're grappling with is a dynamic that we've seen iterate over and over again throughout history and you've pointed to them by talking about the enslaved people and as a form of contract with in labor markets where different versions of capitalism have evolved in response to these different governing structures, and we keep seeing a regulatory move and capitalism evolved.

519
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:49,600
We are now at a late stage capitalism structure where we're not only seeing the efficiencies that are produced by capitalism as as an operating system, but reinforced as you point out by Technical Systems, but we're doing it in a environment to sort of Riff Off of Cerritos point where we're not actually dealing with bounded nation state structures, and I've noticed you're not screaming to tear down late-stage capitalism and maybe a

520
00:59:49,900 --> 00:59:59,800
I know you but part of it is how do we actually think about the boundary work of nation state structures and the evolutions of late-stage capitalism.

521
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,000
Something that can actually grapple with this so that it doesn't just keep slipping in evolving.

522
01:00:06,900 --> 01:00:14,000
Two things popped in my head the last week or so one is thinking multinationals have figured this out in some ways.

523
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:34,800
They know how to cash flow and so to take at face value that multinationals generating quite a bit of wealth internationally and circulating it internationally can't figure out how to circulate and distribute the value seems hell.

524
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:40,600
No. No, they should not govern know it is the say there's clearly a way to exchange money.

525
01:00:40,700 --> 01:00:48,700
Globally. I'll just I'll say it flatly like that and that means in terms of governing the revenue generated the redistribution of it.

526
01:00:48,700 --> 01:00:50,500
That is a global conversation.

527
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:56,700
We know that multinationals are regulated in a specific company or in specific countries start there.

528
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:05,200
So make the United States make the EU the Battleground for saying new classification.

529
01:01:05,700 --> 01:01:08,400
Everybody gets Basics go from there.

530
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:29,200
I think it's for me very frustrating and realize how many large companies and we're pretty much in a monopolistic, you know World here how many of the large companies that have merged and acquired each other have been able to stay on the sidelines of a conversation around Universal Health Care in the United States that makes no sense.

531
01:01:29,300 --> 01:01:41,600
And it should be on everybody's mind to be advocating to these companies and it can't be about just advocacy but certainly making the case why are you on the sidelines you benefit from being able to see this healthy Workforce?

532
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:57,000
And in fact one way to think about this as Supply chains and good work codes for Enterprises to say there should be a call for regulation that if you are hiring a vendor you should make sure that vendor provides.

533
01:01:57,100 --> 01:02:01,800
Of care just as you are required or at least benefiting from providing Health Care.

534
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:44,100
There's a business case there can it happen without regulation know we all need to say this is ridiculous that we don't provide basic Healthcare and I would I would just keep making that case but the second thing that came to mind is that it really is on all of us to stop letting liberal and neoliberal economics to find the value of Labor to call Labor and Marketplace and not see the moralism within that like, I I'm just going to spell this out just plainly we have allowed people in Elite positions both government and private Enterprise to say that our labor is the same kind of capital as a set of Records or a car.

535
01:02:44,700 --> 01:02:48,100
We're not durable goods labor means something else.

536
01:02:48,300 --> 01:02:52,800
So let's stop assuming that the marketplace sets the value of our labor.

537
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:56,500
My salary is not coming from some magically.

538
01:02:57,100 --> 01:02:59,900
Earned value of me on a Marketplace.

539
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:01,300
It's coming from Power.

540
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:11,100
I have a particular kind of power and privilege to command a price and that is that as a set of irrational power moves.

541
01:03:11,100 --> 01:03:13,800
It's not the logic of the market playing out.

542
01:03:13,900 --> 01:03:16,700
So I just I really want us all to start questioning.

543
01:03:16,900 --> 01:03:19,100
There should be no turn to the market.

544
01:03:19,100 --> 01:03:22,200
What is the market paying for this task?

545
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:32,200
It should be Baseline labor divert deserves support because we need healthy workers to move the world forward.

546
01:03:32,300 --> 01:03:37,600
I'm a pragmatist. That's why I'm not that interested in blowing up capitalism writ large.

547
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:46,600
I don't know you could probably get me there Dana but there are alternative versions of marketplaces like Cooperative marketplaces marketplaces.

548
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:56,900
We haven't even imagined yet because we haven't let ourselves think that the market can't set the value of us nor should it and that's why that lineage

549
01:03:57,100 --> 01:04:03,500
It was slavery. Why would we have ever imagined that the market or a market should Define the value of humans?

550
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:12,600
Let's stop that and and and set a Baseline and then go from there perks sure you get perks if you're an extra good worker.

551
01:04:15,300 --> 01:04:15,800
Yeah.

552
01:04:18,300 --> 01:04:20,900
Last question one more of those.

553
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:24,600
I think I might have a simple question.

554
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:42,600
But I'm I'm sort of thinking as you've been talking about people's power and how we might choose a baseline that might be a retainer or some sort of work for all do you think that that might be really difficult as more and more people are doing labor unwittingly.

555
01:04:42,700 --> 01:04:51,500
Like for example people like Google uses verification to make sure you're not a robot and we're like great.

556
01:04:51,500 --> 01:04:59,200
That's great. I want to improve on human but you're actually doing work for for that you're doing that task and you don't know that you're doing it.

557
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:07,800
So do you think that like Hulu or subscription services are going to start making people do work in order to watch a video and because they want to watch it.

558
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:11,000
They're going to do work like in these microtransactions.

559
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:18,000
Do you see that maybe killing the labor force to because all the works going to be spread out to everyone that are very willing to like

560
01:05:18,100 --> 01:05:19,900
Watch their content to do it.

561
01:05:22,300 --> 01:05:34,600
Really optimistic reasons that I think that won't happen one is that when because when people become more aware that when you check that, I'm not a robot that you're actually doing work for a company that makes a lot of money and doesn't actually make your service better.

562
01:05:34,700 --> 01:05:53,500
We should all be saying he'll know and and it's not that we're going to walk away from it because we're all enjoying those Services is that we're all going to become publicly aware that that you are having your time taken you are having your time taken without your permission.

563
01:05:53,900 --> 01:05:56,400
That should never be. Okay, right.

564
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:04,100
So one one answer to your question is we absolutely have to have more public awareness of the sheer robbery of our time.

565
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:05,600
That's that's happening.

566
01:06:05,900 --> 01:06:08,100
We make pains the second response to your question.

567
01:06:08,100 --> 01:06:12,200
We make pains in the book to distinguish between paid labor and unpaid labor.

568
01:06:12,300 --> 01:06:17,600
And the reason to focus on paid labor is precisely say that is a different relationship.

569
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:22,100
It is a social or it's not a charity when you get a job from somebody.

570
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:23,700
You are providing value.

571
01:06:23,700 --> 01:06:33,900
It's a business transaction be cold about it so that we can start living our lives and stop having work Define who we are right?

572
01:06:33,900 --> 01:06:41,400
Like this is Kathy weeks is one of my favorites on this like, why are we not fighting for the end of work rather than for a 40-hour workweek?

573
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:43,300
Hell no, right.

574
01:06:43,300 --> 01:06:53,000
So let's go there and I think the beginning of it is with an awareness of when we are giving away our and actually I think that's the wrong framing when our time is being taken from us.

575
01:06:53,700 --> 01:07:03,000
Let's stop saying we're giving it away because our time is being taken from us without her permission and we have to we have to say that's not okay.

576
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:05,300
That's the first part.

577
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:08,600
Okay last question.

578
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:17,100
Thank you guys. This is just great.

579
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:46,200
So I wanted to ask about I'm looking at the cover of the book and intensely wondering who is this person and and it but it brings back the question the topic of the visibility of people doing this work and their their relative invisibility and I wondered if you could talk about that and talk about why or how that visibility might be important to the bigger equation of change that you imagine.

580
01:07:49,700 --> 01:08:02,700
There's not a day that goes by that somebody doesn't tell me about their lift or their Uber driver when I talk about this book and so there's clearly something poignant and and pressing for people when the person that they're worried about.

581
01:08:02,700 --> 01:08:04,000
Is it right in front of them?

582
01:08:04,100 --> 01:08:11,700
I mean and that's a good thing and I think in some ways let's tactically deploy that if you're an organizer, I do think we care.

583
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:13,500
I mean, I know I'm a roll.

584
01:08:13,700 --> 01:08:18,500
Was Optimist I think when we see someone in pain we want to relieve it.

585
01:08:18,700 --> 01:08:20,200
Usually we save that for people.

586
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:23,000
We love the most but bar impulses there.

587
01:08:23,399 --> 01:08:40,500
And so I want to believe that by raising visibility by seeing the people who do this work, but it changes what we want for them the you could just be crass and cynical and say this could be you so don't you want to change your circumstances will absolutely be someone in your life.

588
01:08:40,899 --> 01:08:42,600
Do you want to see their life better?

589
01:08:42,899 --> 01:08:44,300
So I think it is for me.

590
01:08:44,300 --> 01:08:49,300
It's funny you raised that that the cover was actually really I was uncomfortable with that cover.

591
01:08:49,500 --> 01:08:51,000
I found it sensationalistic.

592
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:52,300
I'll just say this. I love my process.

593
01:08:52,300 --> 01:09:00,000
I don't know if they're here right now. Clearly what they wanted was to get this book and people's hands and they wanted something that people might reach for

594
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:03,300
And it might have that effect.

595
01:09:03,300 --> 01:09:06,300
I hope it does that was their reason for me.

596
01:09:06,300 --> 01:09:10,600
I'm now on this mission to find out who is he, you know, and I'll get back to you.

597
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:13,600
I'll post something I'll find out who he is.

598
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:21,700
Yeah, and that is actually a really complicated question because of the end of the day for the people.

599
01:09:21,700 --> 01:09:28,300
I interviewed there folks doing their jobs living their lives and they're not particularly interested in actually for the folks.

600
01:09:28,300 --> 01:09:31,100
I've asked you want to be on any of the TV shows.

601
01:09:31,100 --> 01:09:43,100
I might be on and the first thing they say is no and the second thing they'll say is I don't have time and the third thing they'll say is I don't want to be seen as one of those people who's a victim.

602
01:09:43,800 --> 01:10:00,600
So what I don't really appreciate as most of the coverage out there frames the people who do this work as victims or dupes or unaware of their circumstances the people doing this work are painfully aware of their circumstances.

603
01:10:01,100 --> 01:10:03,100
And we would do Best by listening to them.

604
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:06,000
I think we could just listen rather than need to see them.

605
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:11,100
This isn't really about making you see everybody who's had a hand in making your social media palatable.

606
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:15,800
It's about knowing there are people who are helping you and they are working.

607
01:10:15,900 --> 01:10:17,100
So how do we support them?

608
01:10:19,700 --> 01:10:22,800
Thank you very much by the book so over here.

609
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:24,700
Thank you Dean.