1 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:29,960 Elizabeth Murray: The whole thing is so scatological. 2 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,520 When you’re painting, it’s like so physical. 3 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:37,400 It’s really physical. 4 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,520 You’re squeezing the paint  out of the tube which is fun. 5 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:42,760 You’re mixing up the paint. 6 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,560 It’s making something happen with a very 7 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:54,455 sort of fluid material that is  constantly somewhat out of control, 8 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,920 harnessing it somehow, harnessing  that energy of the paint. 9 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,216 I think that’s the primary  thing that painting is about. 10 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:20,480 For a couple of years I've been  working with cutting out shapes 11 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,034 and kind of glomming them together. 12 00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:34,120 You know, like basically making a zigzag shape 13 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,280 and making a sort of rectangular shape 14 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,840 and a circular bloopy fat cloudy shape 15 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,837 and just putting them all together and sort of 16 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,210 letting the cards fall where they may. 17 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,440 I know the shapes are always  referred to as cartoony. 18 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,000 And they are cartoony and blumpy and rounded 19 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,544 and inflated and sort of wacky. 20 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,840 All of these shapes are stuck on  to each other in some kind of way. 21 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,214 Sort of like a weird fence or a weird lattice. 22 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,830 Another part of it for me is  to use very intense color. 23 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,400 With the color and with the shape 24 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,040 and with the drawing inside of  the shape really it's just simply 25 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,645 trying to make it work somehow. 26 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,520 There are so many different  combinations of things. 27 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,640 It's like being a safe breaker  and you're listening to the - 28 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:36,080 those movies where they've got  their ear up against the safe 29 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,400 and you are listening for the right click  for the right cylinders to like drop down. 30 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:42,680 Sometimes it's felt really like that, 31 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,240 like I'm just like painting  and painting and painting 32 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,231 until the right thing happens. 33 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,160 I want there to be conflict  and I want there to be tension. 34 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,920 And yet somehow I want to make these  very conflicting things live together, 35 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:06,680 and not just butt up against each  other but really live together. 36 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,760 I do drawings inside the book. 37 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,160 And they’re just kind of like  warm-up to get my mind into it. 38 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,160 You know like to give myself  some, some place to start from, 39 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:32,507 that’s really all they are. 40 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:34,695 It all starts with drawing. 41 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,520 I think the thing I remember the  most is, when I was little was, 42 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,920 the excitement of being able to draw something. 43 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,135 I loved to draw, and I did obsessively. 44 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,853 I guess I kind of realized that it was a  skill that made me feel good about myself. 45 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,799 The Art Institute in Chicago  totally changed my life. 46 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:09,680 There were people there, 47 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,640 the likes of whom I’d never seen before, 48 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,377 in little Bloomington, Illinois. 49 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,877 I absolutely fell in love with that world. 50 00:04:23,896 --> 00:04:25,560 But I think as much as I wanted to be an artist, 51 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,520 I wanted to be different  the way they were different. 52 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:29,720 Because it felt like freedom. 53 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,600 Instead of being trapped in your little  Pendleton skirt and your bobbysocks, 54 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,720 and your saddle shoes, you  could wear big heavy black boots 55 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,960 and put blue makeup on and just,  you know, say what you thought. 56 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,594 You didn't have to be a nice lady anymore. 57 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,200 But the teachers seemed to  be there to teach you that 58 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,440 you had no hopes and no prospects, 59 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:03,094 and being an artist was one of the  most impossible things in the world. 60 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:10,560 And you'd better realize that this  was a life of suffering, struggle, 61 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,535 and you weren't going to be any good anyway. 62 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,973 I had to really find a way to believe in myself. 63 00:05:18,840 --> 00:05:20,840 You know, I think I did it by looking at 64 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:23,754 the paintings in the galleries in Chicago. 65 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,520 I would go everyday and I would look at 66 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,960 this particular DeKooning  painting called Excavation, 67 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,400 and I would almost like do a dance with it. 68 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,480 Like, oh, he went this way  and oh he went that way, 69 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,840 and oh he smudged this and feeling  like the depth of that painting. 70 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:43,000 When you look at it from a distance it looks like 71 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,832 this roiling boiling pot of paint kind of. 72 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,440 Except the order is in that paint. 73 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,600 And when you go up to it you begin  to see like the layers of it, 74 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,440 and I sort of deconstructed the painting 75 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,292 and I would go back down to my  painting and I would try to do it. 76 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:08,972 I never got that good, but it made  me start to feel my body and my mind. 77 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:15,503 My mind letting my arm make the decision. 78 00:06:27,780 --> 00:06:32,800 And when you start to get the control  then your feelings can start to flow. 79 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,000 And once that starts to  happen, it's like you know, 80 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,230 you get on the track and the train starts moving. 81 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:51,320 I just realized this was going to be my life. 82 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,360 I really need time by myself, and I always have. 83 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,080 And I think when I was a kid I  actually liked to play by myself a lot. 84 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,034 And that’s not saying I don’t  need people because I do. 85 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,280 I love the quiet of walking into my studio 86 00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:07,360 and looking at my work and then painting, 87 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,516 and it just feels like of a piece  with my whole life in a way. 88 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,560 Having my kids has made me  part of the world as an artist 89 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,640 and as someone who works in a lot if isolation 90 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:32,280 it's really made me deal with life in  a way that I absolutely wouldn't have. 91 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:37,600 It's made me have a life,  and take my mind off myself. 92 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,047 That's what they've done for me. 93 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,360 They'll be more honest with  me than anybody else will. 94 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,120 They'll tell me how they feel. 95 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,740 And not everybody does that. 96 00:07:50,693 --> 00:07:52,520 DAISY: Which one do you want to talk about? 97 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:53,880 MURRAY: What, honey? 98 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,070 MURRAY: This one, yeah. 99 00:07:57,781 --> 00:08:02,692 So, what I want to know is, I'm trying to  decide whether to put this in the show. 100 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,372 And I want to know, just tell  me exactly what you think of it. 101 00:08:11,900 --> 00:08:13,712 I just made some big changes in it. 102 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,960 The drawings are different but this is  what sort of comes out from the drawings. 103 00:08:19,545 --> 00:08:22,989 SOPHIE: I like it. And I think if you – 104 00:08:22,989 --> 00:08:24,960 MURRAY: Of course what I wanted  you to say was it's great, 105 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,100 it's good, don't touch it, put it in the show. 106 00:08:27,100 --> 00:08:29,840 DAISY: But Mom, even if you  couldn't, even if you were going to 107 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:31,800 leave everything the way it was you couldn't 108 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,080 because it's not like nothing except  for that and the chair and the door, 109 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,769 it's nothing, and the sun, none of it is done. 110 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:46,720 I think, I think that it all just  - it isn't a bad thing you just, 111 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:47,920 the surfaces aren't finished. 112 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:49,120 SOPHIE: Are you bored with it? 113 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,080 MURRAY: No, I'm very interested in it. 114 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,512 DAISY: Because you don't  ever leave things like this. 115 00:08:54,512 --> 00:08:56,400 MURRAY: Yeah, no, I'm going  to just keep working on it. 116 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:00,480 SOPHIE: But maybe that would be  interesting not, just leaving it. 117 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,720 MURRAY: No, I can’t do that. Daisy's right.  You're right, You're right, You're right. 118 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:09,040 MURRAY: I think what I have to do is  take out the bloopy forms and re - 119 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,592 and just, maybe they will come  back and maybe they won't, but - 120 00:09:11,592 --> 00:09:15,387 MURRAY: I think I got to  take these out for awhile. 121 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,160 SOPHIE: It might just be nice to see  what it looks like when it is just, 122 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,160 you know, blank. 123 00:09:23,135 --> 00:09:26,600 DAISY: It might be that they are too  much like the curves in the smoke. 124 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,180 SOPHIE: Oh, yeah! 125 00:09:28,180 --> 00:09:30,000 MURRAY: Yeah but then, yeah. 126 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,040 SOPHIE: I love the smoke. 127 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,695 I think the smoke is my favorite thing. I think I like this red and the pink. 128 00:09:37,558 --> 00:09:42,480 MURRAY: But what about the marks  inside the roof tops, the triangles. 129 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,520 It just feels like, it's very descriptive. 130 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,200 The triangle then becomes the  roof, you know what I mean? 131 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,040 It's a representation. 132 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:54,860 SOPHIE: I mean that's what it is. 133 00:09:54,860 --> 00:09:55,720 MURRAY: Yeah, ah-hah. 134 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,080 SOPHIE: That's the chimney,  that's the smoke coming out of it, 135 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,520 that's you know, the little people inside of it – 136 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:02,520 MURRAY: Be quiet! 137 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:08,680 SOPHIE: Of course there is room for  interpretation I mean that's what your work does, 138 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:11,880 but you know there is the little  people inside that are talking, 139 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,549 and that is what they are saying  inside I little speech bubbles. 140 00:10:15,549 --> 00:10:16,960 MURRAY: Cartoons, speech bubbles. Ohh, ok. DAISY: I thought it was a path. 141 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:18,777 SOPHIE: You thought it was a path? 142 00:10:18,777 --> 00:10:18,792 DAISY: Hmm-mmm. 143 00:10:18,792 --> 00:10:24,910 SOPHIE: Oh, it could be a path. See  Mom? We still don't know what it is! 144 00:10:27,618 --> 00:10:30,302 MURRAY: Ok, that's really  good. That's really helpful. 145 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,280 I think every artist has  this, you leave it at night 146 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:35,640 and you come back and you think, 147 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,448 wow I've got it, I've got it. 148 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,995 And then you come back in the morning  and it's gone, like it looks awful. 149 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:47,680 And that's sort of when I think, "Why did  I go on this journey in the first place? 150 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:53,820 What am I doing this for?  It's just, it's so painful." 151 00:10:54,535 --> 00:11:00,280 And then you know, the next morning you’re  back at it bright-eyed and bushy-tailed 152 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,020 like trying again. 153 00:11:08,226 --> 00:11:15,120 MURRAY (SOT): OK, so let’s  move this painting over here. 154 00:11:18,066 --> 00:11:20,680 MURRAY (SOT): No, don’t even hang it up. 155 00:11:20,680 --> 00:11:22,680 My fantasy is that I would  get to a certain point where 156 00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:23,920 I would know what I wanted to say, 157 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,560 where you were either on  this straight line or a road, 158 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:27,520 you would never swerve. 159 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,520 You would just do your work then. 160 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,120 And that’s not the way it is at all. 161 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,840 You know, get off the path and  then get back on again for a while 162 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,160 and you trip along and suddenly you stumble 163 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:41,560 and then you’re back on again. 164 00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:43,881 And I don’t think that process ever ends. 165 00:11:45,441 --> 00:11:50,706 MURRAY (SOT): And that height is good. More over to the right, center it on the wall. 166 00:11:50,706 --> 00:11:53,413 MURRAY (SOT): Let’s switch this with this. 167 00:11:54,865 --> 00:11:58,080 MURRAY: When I really know  certain things are working for me, 168 00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:59,240 they make me laugh. 169 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,080 Like oh, this is really silly. 170 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,280 And I just enjoy that. 171 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:14,120 And I think for myself it’s  part of what gets me through. 172 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,200 I think it's really very  similar to how a kid plays. 173 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,240 You know, it's like you are in your playroom 174 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:22,920 and you are just picking up these different shapes 175 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,572 and throwing them on the wall  and then putting them together 176 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,783 and seeing what kind of a  game you can make out of them. 177 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:35,112 I think that's pretty explanatory  of what it feels like to make them, 178 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,680 and very close to the kind of feeling  that I want to get out of them, 179 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:44,549 and I think I want you to get out of them too.