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Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.00,0:00:22.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1} rC3 2021 Chaos-West TV preroll music {\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:25.07,0:00:30.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Good, good afternoon, everyone.\NThis upcoming talk is "Stop general data
Dialogue: 0,0:00:30.48,0:00:35.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention in the European Union and the\Ncurrent plans for mass surveillance".
Dialogue: 0,0:00:35.04,0:00:41.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it is not in German as the Fahrplan\Nsuggests. It's all done in English, but…
Dialogue: 0,0:00:41.84,0:00:46.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dieser Vortrag wird also \Nsimultan übersetzt ins Deutsch.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:47.33,0:00:52.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's the extent of my German. \NI will carry on introducing the speakers.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:54.78,0:00:57.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Also not included in the \Nline up in the Fahrplan is
Dialogue: 0,0:00:57.96,0:01:02.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Friedemann Ebelt, a freelance campaigner \Nin Germany against data retention.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:03.92,0:01:07.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Another German is joining us, \Nthat is Patrick Breyer
Dialogue: 0,0:01:07.15,0:01:12.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who is a member of the European\NParliament for the German Pirates.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:14.40,0:01:20.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we stay in Brussels for a little bit\Nwith Chloé Berthélémy, who is a policy
Dialogue: 0,0:01:20.25,0:01:22.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,adviser of European Digital Rights.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:24.48,0:01:27.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we are also staying a little bit \Nin European Digital Rights, because
Dialogue: 0,0:01:27.86,0:01:32.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We also have the chairman of\Nthe Danish NGO IT-Pol, Jesper Lund
Dialogue: 0,0:01:33.26,0:01:35.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That group's also an EDRi member.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:35.43,0:01:37.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And last, but definitely not least,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:37.92,0:01:43.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have TJ McIntyre, who is a lecturer at\NUniversity College Dublin, but is also
Dialogue: 0,0:01:43.16,0:01:47.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,part of Digital Rights Ireland. And is one\Nof the brains, together with Austrian NGOs
Dialogue: 0,0:01:47.85,0:01:54.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and activists, behind the original\NDRI Ireland case in front of the
Dialogue: 0,0:01:54.23,0:01:59.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Court of Justice of the European Union,\Nwhich struck down data retention.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:00.64,0:02:03.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That was already in 2016.\NTime flies when you're getting old.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:05.10,0:02:09.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm going to hand it over to Friedemann, \Nwho is moderating this panel.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:10.25,0:02:14.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Friedemann Ebelt: Thank you, Walter, \Nfor introducing this talk.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:14.35,0:02:20.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And welcome everybody to this talk on mass\Nsurveillance of our communication data in
Dialogue: 0,0:02:20.27,0:02:26.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the European Union. And also thanks you\Nfor your interest in this very important
Dialogue: 0,0:02:26.22,0:02:32.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,issue. I had the joy to organize this talk\Nand I will help to navigate a little
Dialogue: 0,0:02:32.46,0:02:38.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through this session. And the key\Nquestions of this talk are going to be:
Dialogue: 0,0:02:39.14,0:02:42.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is data retention? \NAnd what are the problems?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:42.37,0:02:46.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Also, what is the legal situation\Nin the European Union?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:46.41,0:02:51.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what are member state\Ngovernments actually doing?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.13,0:02:55.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is the Commission of\Nthe European Union doing?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:55.90,0:03:00.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what's going on \Nin the European Parliament?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:00.74,0:03:05.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Also important questions are…\NWhat's the situation in Germany?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:05.34,0:03:09.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What's the situation in France, \NIreland, Denmark and Belgium?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:09.84,0:03:19.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what can we expect from \Nthe new year, from 2022 and the future?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:19.37,0:03:25.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And of course, for many of you,\None of the most important questions:
Dialogue: 0,0:03:25.98,0:03:31.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What can citizens do about mass \Nsurveillance of communication data?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:32.00,0:03:37.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You will find more information\Non the speakers, and you will find also
Dialogue: 0,0:03:37.09,0:03:41.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the audio and video to download on \Nmedia.ccc.de
Dialogue: 0,0:03:41.46,0:03:45.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You can just search for data retention.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:45.30,0:03:49.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And of course, if you like,\Nyou can recommend the talk to others.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:50.47,0:03:56.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In general to follow the discussion on data\Nretention during the year 2022 and beyond
Dialogue: 0,0:03:56.52,0:03:59.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can use the hashtag\N#DataRetention
Dialogue: 0,0:03:59.44,0:04:02.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or the equivalent in your language.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:02.36,0:04:06.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In German, this would be\N#Vorratsdatenspeicherung
Dialogue: 0,0:04:06.34,0:04:11.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Patrick Breyer,\Nas the member of the European Parliament,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:11.32,0:04:15.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will start this talk with the question:
Dialogue: 0,0:04:15.36,0:04:20.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is data retention, \Nand what are the problems?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:21.93,0:04:24.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Patrick Breyer: \NThank you very much Friedemann.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:24.17,0:04:26.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And thanks everybody\Nfor joining us for this talk.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:26.81,0:04:32.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Data retention has been called the\Nmost privacy-invasive scheme ever
Dialogue: 0,0:04:32.20,0:04:38.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,adopted by the European Union. But what\Ndoes the term mean exactly? Now, data
Dialogue: 0,0:04:38.16,0:04:44.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention means that a record is kept by\Nyour providers on all phone calls you made
Dialogue: 0,0:04:44.64,0:04:51.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and received, on all electronic messages\Nyou sent or received, as well as on the
Dialogue: 0,0:04:51.50,0:04:56.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,IP address that was assigned\Nto each of your internet connections.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:56.18,0:05:01.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this means that the record does\Nnot contain the content of your calls
Dialogue: 0,0:05:01.02,0:05:06.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and messages, but details on who you \Nwere communicating with, at what time,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:06.12,0:05:10.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and, in the case of mobile devices, \Nwhere you were located.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:11.21,0:05:15.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This record can be accessed by public \Nauthorities to investigate suspects
Dialogue: 0,0:05:15.96,0:05:21.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of serious crime. But it will be created \Neven if you are not suspected or in
Dialogue: 0,0:05:21.69,0:05:24.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any way remotely connected to any crime.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:25.41,0:05:30.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what is the problem with \Ncreating this sea of personal data?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:30.57,0:05:36.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For the first time with data retention,\Nsensitive information is amassed
Dialogue: 0,0:05:36.69,0:05:41.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the everyday social contacts,\Nincluding business contacts,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:41.67,0:05:48.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the movements and on the private lives\Nof millions of citizens that are not even
Dialogue: 0,0:05:48.16,0:05:52.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,remotely connected to any wrongdoing.\NThe German Constitutional Court said
Dialogue: 0,0:05:52.73,0:05:57.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that data retention has a broader range \Nthan anything in the legal system to date.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:57.84,0:06:02.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the idea of collecting information \Njust in case you might need it
Dialogue: 0,0:06:02.96,0:06:10.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the future, that idea opens the\Nfloodgates to recording our entire lives.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:10.16,0:06:20.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Including collecting our travels, using\NANPR data, facial recognition data…
Dialogue: 0,0:06:20.40,0:06:26.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You name it. This idea of retaining "just\Nin case" is what is dangerous about this
Dialogue: 0,0:06:26.16,0:06:31.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data retention. And that's why we are\Nfighting this precedent so hard.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:31.18,0:06:34.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It normalizes mass surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:34.17,0:06:38.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Besides, a blanket telecommunications\Ndata retention has proven
Dialogue: 0,0:06:38.97,0:06:44.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be harmful to many sectors\Nof society. It disrupts confidential
Dialogue: 0,0:06:44.08,0:06:51.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communications in areas that legitimately\Nrequire non-traceability. For example,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:51.68,0:06:57.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contacts with psychotherapists, with\Nphysicians, lawyers, workers councils,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:57.28,0:07:02.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,marriage counselors, drug abuse\Ncounselors, help lines, et cetera. It thus
Dialogue: 0,0:07:02.64,0:07:09.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,endangers the physical and mental health\Nof people in need of support, as well as
Dialogue: 0,0:07:09.76,0:07:14.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of people around them. For example, a\NGerman crisis line reported they once
Dialogue: 0,0:07:14.88,0:07:19.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talked a student out of a killing spree\Nthat he was contemplating at his own
Dialogue: 0,0:07:19.76,0:07:24.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,school. And you know, if you start\Nrecording information on these contacts
Dialogue: 0,0:07:24.64,0:07:30.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and people risk being prosecuted, they\Nmight no longer call and it might not be
Dialogue: 0,0:07:30.00,0:07:37.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,possible to dissuade them from these\Nkind of crimes. Furthermore, the inability
Dialogue: 0,0:07:37.44,0:07:42.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of journalists to electronically receive\Ninformation through untraceable channels
Dialogue: 0,0:07:42.64,0:07:48.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,compromises the freedom of the press,\Ndamages preconditions of our open and
Dialogue: 0,0:07:48.00,0:07:54.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,democratic society. Blanket data retention\Ncreates risks of data abuse and loss of
Dialogue: 0,0:07:54.96,0:08:00.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,confidential information relating to our\Ncontacts, movements, and interests. And
Dialogue: 0,0:08:00.96,0:08:06.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communications data are particularly\Nsusceptible to producing unjustified
Dialogue: 0,0:08:06.00,0:08:11.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,suspicions and subjecting innocent\Ncitizens to criminal investigations
Dialogue: 0,0:08:11.52,0:08:19.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they relate to a connection point,\Nnot a specific person. And let me briefly
Dialogue: 0,0:08:19.84,0:08:25.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,explain why data retention is the problem\Nand not the solution for law enforcement.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:25.84,0:08:31.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It is, as I explained, a weapon of mass\Nsurveillance directed against the entire
Dialogue: 0,0:08:31.60,0:08:36.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,population. But on the other hand, the\Nresults are not even statistically
Dialogue: 0,0:08:36.88,0:08:44.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,significant. So neither the number of\Ncrimes, nor the crime clearance rate
Dialogue: 0,0:08:44.00,0:08:49.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,depends on whether you have data retention\Nlegislation in place in a country or not.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:49.60,0:08:52.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I've commissioned the European\NParliament's research service to look at
Dialogue: 0,0:08:52.80,0:08:57.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the statistics throughout the EU, and they\Ndidn't find one country where the
Dialogue: 0,0:08:57.90,0:09:04.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,crime rate or the number of crimes\Ndepended on is a data retention law in
Dialogue: 0,0:09:04.20,0:09:09.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,effect or not. But you'd expect it, you\Nknow, considering the breadth and mass
Dialogue: 0,0:09:09.89,0:09:14.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of information that's being recorded.\NObviously, there are typically other ways
Dialogue: 0,0:09:14.93,0:09:20.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of clearing crimes than historical\Nrecords. And also, blanket retention may
Dialogue: 0,0:09:20.36,0:09:26.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have counterproductive effects, pushing\Ncriminals to other terms and making
Dialogue: 0,0:09:26.32,0:09:31.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,investigations even more difficult in some\Ncases. And specifically, I want to say, in
Dialogue: 0,0:09:31.09,0:09:36.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,relation to child pornography online,\Nwhich is really the favorite, most popular
Dialogue: 0,0:09:36.17,0:09:42.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,argument that proponents use currently.\NLet me underline that in Germany, without
Dialogue: 0,0:09:42.16,0:09:48.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mandatory data retention in force, 91% of\Nall investigations of child pornography
Dialogue: 0,0:09:48.74,0:09:55.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are cleared. And the crime clearance rate\Nactually dropped when IP data retention
Dialogue: 0,0:09:55.26,0:10:01.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,came into force in Germany, about 10 years\Nago. Besides, anonymous communications
Dialogue: 0,0:10:01.94,0:10:07.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,protects children by allowing for\Nanonymous counseling that they are in need
Dialogue: 0,0:10:07.56,0:10:14.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of, by allowing for anonymous self-help\Ngroups, by allowing them to anonymously
Dialogue: 0,0:10:14.33,0:10:23.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,file criminal charges. So don't be\Nmistaken about the killer argument of
Dialogue: 0,0:10:23.15,0:10:32.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,child pornography. It's an excuse, not a\Nvalid justification.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:32.85,0:10:38.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ebelt: Patrick, since you explained what\Nblanket or general data retention is all
Dialogue: 0,0:10:38.61,0:10:45.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about, it seems pretty clear that it's a\Nhuge problem in democracies. And it's a
Dialogue: 0,0:10:45.95,0:10:50.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,huge problem for the freedom of our\Ncommunications. But how about the legal
Dialogue: 0,0:10:50.72,0:10:56.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,situation? And this is something TJ\NMcIntyre, chairman of Digital Rights
Dialogue: 0,0:10:56.95,0:11:06.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ireland, will explain us right now. TJ…\NTJ McIntyre: Thanks Friedemann. So the
Dialogue: 0,0:11:06.44,0:11:13.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,situation here, if we go back to the early\Npart of the 2000's, is that even in the
Dialogue: 0,0:11:13.10,0:11:17.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,run up to 9/11, governments were using\Nthis kind of data retention essentially in
Dialogue: 0,0:11:17.20,0:11:21.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,secret. And they were getting telecom\Ncompanies to retain this information
Dialogue: 0,0:11:21.62,0:11:27.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without usually any real legal basis. And,\Nafter that was exposed, the early part of
Dialogue: 0,0:11:27.07,0:11:32.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the 2000's saw some national laws being\Nrushed in, in a hurry, to try to legalize
Dialogue: 0,0:11:32.50,0:11:36.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this practice. But it also saw a lot of\Nchallenges brought by civil rights groups
Dialogue: 0,0:11:36.88,0:11:41.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to these practices. And there were\Nsuccessful challenges in many individual
Dialogue: 0,0:11:41.46,0:11:47.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,countries on different grounds, in\NGermany, Romania, Bulgaria and so on. But
Dialogue: 0,0:11:47.57,0:11:52.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what was most interesting from my\Nperspective was when the battle shifted to
Dialogue: 0,0:11:52.24,0:11:56.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the European level, because there was a\Nmove to introduce a European law, which
Dialogue: 0,0:11:56.67,0:12:01.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would require data retention across all of\NEurope, which was eventually adopted as
Dialogue: 0,0:12:01.44,0:12:08.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the so-called Data Retention Directive.\NAnd we in Digital Rights Ireland, along
Dialogue: 0,0:12:08.58,0:12:12.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with colleagues from many other civil\Nrights groups, brought action seeking to
Dialogue: 0,0:12:12.69,0:12:16.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,challenge this. And eventually we were\Nsuccessful in doing so before the European
Dialogue: 0,0:12:16.33,0:12:20.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Court of Justice in 2014, which\Ninvalidated the directive on the basis
Dialogue: 0,0:12:20.53,0:12:25.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it was essentially disproportionate\Nand a gross invasion of privacy, one that
Dialogue: 0,0:12:25.76,0:12:30.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,creates real risks of abuse. If we had a\Npiece of legislation which involves
Dialogue: 0,0:12:30.61,0:12:35.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,creating these huge dossiers of data on\Neverybody indiscriminately. So that was
Dialogue: 0,0:12:35.92,0:12:42.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,2014, and since then we've seen massive\Nnational pushback against this finding,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:42.86,0:12:47.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that this kind of indiscriminate data\Nretention is disproportionate and
Dialogue: 0,0:12:47.21,0:12:52.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,therefore contrary to European law. And\Nwe've seen multiple cases since then where
Dialogue: 0,0:12:52.41,0:12:56.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,national governments have tried to\Npersuade the European Court of Justice to
Dialogue: 0,0:12:56.79,0:13:05.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,change its tack. There was a judgment in\N2016 in a case brought by litigants from
Dialogue: 0,0:13:05.36,0:13:12.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the United Kingdom and from Sweden, the\NTele2 and Davis and Watson case. There was
Dialogue: 0,0:13:12.30,0:13:19.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a judgment in 2018 in a case arising from\NSpain. There was a judgment in 2020 in a
Dialogue: 0,0:13:19.08,0:13:24.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,case coming from France and the United\NKingdom, the Quadrature du Net and the
Dialogue: 0,0:13:24.56,0:13:28.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Privacy International joint cases. And\Nagain and again and again, what national
Dialogue: 0,0:13:28.82,0:13:32.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,governments have tried to do is to\Npersuade the European Court of Justice
Dialogue: 0,0:13:32.03,0:13:37.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it was wrong in 2014. That this\Nfinding that mass indiscriminate
Dialogue: 0,0:13:37.29,0:13:42.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surveillance is unacceptable in a\Ndemocratic society should be rolled back.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:42.03,0:13:46.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, to my mind, what's very interesting\Nis what's happening at the moment. Because
Dialogue: 0,0:13:46.06,0:13:50.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is yet another of these cases, in\Nfact, three parallel cases before the
Dialogue: 0,0:13:50.30,0:13:54.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European Court of Justice at the moment,\Nwhere national governments have
Dialogue: 0,0:13:54.57,0:13:59.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,essentially again tried to square up to\Nthe European Court of Justice. Where
Dialogue: 0,0:13:59.95,0:14:04.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collectively – this is really quite\Nremarkable, I don't think we've ever seen
Dialogue: 0,0:14:04.07,0:14:09.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,such a coordinated set of national\Ndisobedience to court rulings before –
Dialogue: 0,0:14:09.42,0:14:14.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where collectively, national governments\Nacross the EU have tried to say to the
Dialogue: 0,0:14:14.16,0:14:17.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European Court of Justice, "we need this\Nkind of mass surveillance," – though,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:17.82,0:14:21.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without producing any evidence to show\Nthat it's in fact necessary, as Patrick
Dialogue: 0,0:14:21.59,0:14:25.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,points out – "We need this kind of mass\Nsurveillance. We think you are wrong. We
Dialogue: 0,0:14:25.49,0:14:31.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want you to change your mind on this." So,\Nthis to me is rather worrying because it
Dialogue: 0,0:14:31.82,0:14:35.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shows, I think, a degree of lawlessness\Nhere. National governments are unwilling
Dialogue: 0,0:14:35.88,0:14:40.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to accept the findings of the highest\Ncourt in Europe on this point. In some
Dialogue: 0,0:14:40.12,0:14:45.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,countries – in Ireland, for example – the\Nlaw and the theory hasn't been changed at
Dialogue: 0,0:14:45.06,0:14:50.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all. Despite the multiple judgments in\Nthis area, Irish law remains as it was in
Dialogue: 0,0:14:50.47,0:14:54.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,2011, so predating all these cases. And\Nthe Irish government has essentially
Dialogue: 0,0:14:54.91,0:14:59.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,indicated that it plans to keep that law\Nin place until it is forced by the
Dialogue: 0,0:14:59.33,0:15:05.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,judgment of the national courts to do away\Nwith it. So we have, I think, a very
Dialogue: 0,0:15:05.04,0:15:09.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,difficult situation here. In one sense, of\Ncourse, we've been very lucky. We've
Dialogue: 0,0:15:09.51,0:15:13.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,achieved a number of very important\Njudgments from the European Court of
Dialogue: 0,0:15:13.07,0:15:17.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Justice. We have a court there whose\Nmembers understand the importance of this
Dialogue: 0,0:15:17.66,0:15:22.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,issue. But against that, you have a real\Nproblem here with national pushback and a
Dialogue: 0,0:15:22.57,0:15:26.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,desire to eventually force down the\Ncourt. And perhaps wait until the
Dialogue: 0,0:15:26.48,0:15:30.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,composition of the courts changes in\Nfuture and get more favorable precedents.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:30.12,0:15:34.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I think, from that perspective, it's\Nvery important that at a national level,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:34.11,0:15:39.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we push to increase the political pressure\Nagainst these laws. And, as far as we can
Dialogue: 0,0:15:39.56,0:15:45.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at European level, we try to push the\NCommission to act, to take steps against
Dialogue: 0,0:15:45.03,0:15:48.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,member states that have refused to\Nimplement judgments of the European Court
Dialogue: 0,0:15:48.34,0:15:52.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of Justice, and to ensure \Ncompliance with European law.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:55.66,0:16:04.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ebelt: Thank you, TJ. Now, following the\Nlegal situation, let us have a look at the
Dialogue: 0,0:16:04.49,0:16:11.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,implementation of law. And here, one of\Nthe or maybe the most important players
Dialogue: 0,0:16:11.44,0:16:17.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the European Union is the Commission of\Nthe European Union. And this question goes
Dialogue: 0,0:16:17.63,0:16:22.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to Jesper Lund, chairman of the IT-\NPolitical Association of Denmark.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:23.89,0:16:27.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jesper, what is going on at the Commission?
Dialogue: 0,0:16:28.76,0:16:31.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jesper Lund: Thank you, Friedemann.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:31.13,0:16:35.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, essentially, every since the Data\NRetention Directive was annulled in 2014,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:35.91,0:16:39.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there has been an ongoing discussion: is\Nthere going to be a new data retention
Dialogue: 0,0:16:39.98,0:16:47.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,instrument at the EU level? And so,\Nbesides waiting for the Commission, this
Dialogue: 0,0:16:47.22,0:16:51.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discussion has also been going on in\Nvarious working groups of council
Dialogue: 0,0:16:51.54,0:16:56.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where member states meet in secret.\NFortunately, some of that documents are
Dialogue: 0,0:16:56.77,0:17:01.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,leaked or obtained through Freedom of\NInformation Access requests. So we sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:17:01.10,0:17:05.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know from this process that that, as TJ\Nmentioned, member states are in complete
Dialogue: 0,0:17:05.75,0:17:11.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,denial. They refuse to accept that general\Nindiscriminate data retention is illegal,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:11.92,0:17:20.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and try to move on from that starting\Npoint. So most recently, I think, the
Dialogue: 0,0:17:20.30,0:17:25.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Commission has sort of taken a hold...\Nwait and see attitude, wait for the next
Dialogue: 0,0:17:25.02,0:17:29.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,judgment. But after the La Quadrature \Njudgement in October last year,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:30.69,0:17:37.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Commission has come forward with a\Nnon-paper in June which generated a lot of
Dialogue: 0,0:17:37.00,0:17:44.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,attention. So it's mostly a paper that\Nthat asks questions to member states, but
Dialogue: 0,0:17:44.46,0:17:48.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of reading between the lines of the\Npaper, we can also see what plans the
Dialogue: 0,0:17:48.74,0:17:53.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Commission might have for a not\Nnecessarily a new data retention law; that
Dialogue: 0,0:17:53.58,0:17:58.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is one of the options for member states.\NIt could also be guidance for member
Dialogue: 0,0:17:58.30,0:18:07.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,states. But sort of going through the\Npaper, it follows roughly the judgment in
Dialogue: 0,0:18:07.41,0:18:13.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the La Quadrature case. One novel aspect\Nof that is that the court reaffirmed that
Dialogue: 0,0:18:13.88,0:18:18.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we cannot have mass surveillance, general\Nand indiscriminate data retention, for the
Dialogue: 0,0:18:18.94,0:18:23.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,purpose of combating even serious crime.\NBut it is possible unfortunately the court
Dialogue: 0,0:18:23.21,0:18:28.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,said, it is possible, in certain cases,\Nto have general and indiscriminate data
Dialogue: 0,0:18:28.79,0:18:33.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention for national security, if there\Nis a serious threat to national security
Dialogue: 0,0:18:33.98,0:18:40.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is as genuine and present and\Nforeseeable. It's pretty clear from my
Dialogue: 0,0:18:40.95,0:18:45.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reading of the judgment that this must be\Nan extraordinary situation where
Dialogue: 0,0:18:45.100,0:18:50.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surveilling everybody for a short time can\Nhelp prevent a very serious threat to
Dialogue: 0,0:18:50.64,0:18:54.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,national security. But the commission is\Nusing that, and member states are also
Dialogue: 0,0:18:54.73,0:19:02.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doing that. We'll get to that later. Using\Nthat as sort of a starting point to have
Dialogue: 0,0:19:02.56,0:19:08.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,general and indiscriminate data retention.\NSo the commission asks – even though
Dialogue: 0,0:19:08.18,0:19:11.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,national security is the sole\Ncompetence of the member states,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:11.37,0:19:14.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the commission is very\Nunsure of any legal basis here –
Dialogue: 0,0:19:14.77,0:19:21.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether there should be an EU instrument\Non data retention for national security.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:21.96,0:19:24.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One thing to note here is that \Nthis might be even worse
Dialogue: 0,0:19:24.88,0:19:30.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than the Data Retention Directive\Nbecause the commission indicates that this
Dialogue: 0,0:19:30.16,0:19:34.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,should not just cover telecommunications\Nservices, as the Data Retention Directive
Dialogue: 0,0:19:34.24,0:19:40.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,did, but also so-called over-the-top\Nproviders (OTT's.) Which would be services
Dialogue: 0,0:19:40.00,0:19:47.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like Signal, WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger,\Nand so forth. And this could potentially
Dialogue: 0,0:19:47.52,0:19:55.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be an EU legislative initiative, whereas\Nperhaps data retention for traditional
Dialogue: 0,0:19:55.12,0:19:59.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,telecommunications services could remain\Nwith member states. The Commission is also
Dialogue: 0,0:19:59.76,0:20:03.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,suggesting that there could be a mixed\Napproach of national legislation and and
Dialogue: 0,0:20:03.92,0:20:10.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,EU legislation. The Commission is also\Nasking member states about targeted data
Dialogue: 0,0:20:10.00,0:20:15.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention. This is what the court has said\Nsince, essentially since the first judgement
Dialogue: 0,0:20:15.58,0:20:20.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that general and indiscriminate data\Nretention is not allowed, but targeted
Dialogue: 0,0:20:20.32,0:20:27.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data retention could be allowed or is\Nallowed by EU law. And unfortunately, what
Dialogue: 0,0:20:27.68,0:20:33.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Commission does in this area is so,\Ntake every hint in the La Quadrature
Dialogue: 0,0:20:33.04,0:20:38.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,judgement, and sort of amplify to make\Ntargeted data retention cover as much as
Dialogue: 0,0:20:38.64,0:20:44.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,possible. It's pretty clear from the\Njudgment that targeted data retention has
Dialogue: 0,0:20:44.00,0:20:48.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be the exception, not the rule. It\Ncannot cover half of the population. But
Dialogue: 0,0:20:48.76,0:20:53.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this part is sort of forgotten by the\NCommission in the non-paper. So they
Dialogue: 0,0:20:53.60,0:20:58.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mentioned a long list of areas: critical\Ninfrastructure, transport hubs, and then
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.72,0:21:03.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,areas with above average crime rates. This\Nis not exactly what the court said; said
Dialogue: 0,0:21:03.92,0:21:10.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,specific areas of high incidence of crimes\Nor above average could very easily include
Dialogue: 0,0:21:10.00,0:21:16.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a large part of a member state. And then\Non the person-based targeted data
Dialogue: 0,0:21:16.00,0:21:20.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention, it sort of mentions almost\Neverybody who could be of interest to the
Dialogue: 0,0:21:20.96,0:21:24.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,police: known organized groups,\Nindividuals convicted of serious crime,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:24.88,0:21:30.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,individuals who have been subject to a\Nlawful interception order, individuals on
Dialogue: 0,0:21:30.16,0:21:36.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,watchlists, and so forth. You know the\Ntendency of the police and secret services
Dialogue: 0,0:21:36.24,0:21:46.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to put people on watchlists in secret,\Nthat this can presumably be very long.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:46.38,0:21:50.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In connection with this – it actually gets\Neven worse – because in connection with
Dialogue: 0,0:21:50.16,0:21:57.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,targeted data retention, the Commission\Nmentions the idea of having subscriber
Dialogue: 0,0:21:57.76,0:22:01.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,information collected on everybody and\Nverified subscriber information, including
Dialogue: 0,0:22:01.84,0:22:09.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mandatory and EU-wide mandatory obligation\Nto have registration of anonymous SIM
Dialogue: 0,0:22:09.60,0:22:13.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cards, pay as you go SIM cards. And this\Nis sort of justified by the targeted data
Dialogue: 0,0:22:13.84,0:22:18.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention. We need to make sure that\Nthe right persons can be targeted.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:18.27,0:22:23.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The non-paper also mentions quick-freeze\Nor expedited retention. This is interesting
Dialogue: 0,0:22:23.52,0:22:29.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because quick-freeze data preservation\Nis what civil society has called for as
Dialogue: 0,0:22:29.44,0:22:36.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the alternative to data retention,\Nbasically ever since the mid-2000s.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:36.11,0:22:41.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And finally, it goes into the generalized\Nretention of IP addresses, which the Court
Dialogue: 0,0:22:41.12,0:22:46.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of Justice unfortunately allowed on a\Ngeneral and indiscriminate basis in the
Dialogue: 0,0:22:46.64,0:22:52.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,La Quadrature judgement, but limited to\Nserious crime. Just looking at the
Dialogue: 0,0:22:52.00,0:22:57.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,questions, Commission is asking member\Nstates whether sufficient, whether all
Dialogue: 0,0:22:57.52,0:23:03.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,relevant cybercrimes are covered by their\Nnotion of serious crime. Let me briefly,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:03.84,0:23:09.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in conclusion, mention some of the member\Nstates' reaction to this. Statewatch did a
Dialogue: 0,0:23:09.12,0:23:13.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Freedom of Information Access request with\Nthe Commission to get a response from
Dialogue: 0,0:23:13.92,0:23:20.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,member states. Most of them refused, but\Nsome Denmark, Finland, Germany,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:20.64,0:23:26.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hungary, Luxembourg, the Netherlands,\Nand Sweden provided their responses.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:26.61,0:23:33.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In general, they want an EU instrument, but\Nthey're not interested in having that
Dialogue: 0,0:23:33.52,0:23:38.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cover national security. They're also not\Ntoo keen on targeted data retention, and
Dialogue: 0,0:23:38.56,0:23:43.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they don't really like the idea of quick-\Nfreeze. So it's not entirely clear what
Dialogue: 0,0:23:43.84,0:23:49.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this EU instrument should cover. Except\Nwhile they want, you know, indiscriminate
Dialogue: 0,0:23:49.36,0:23:54.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data retention for everything, but they\Ncan't have that. And that is their chosen
Dialogue: 0,0:23:54.64,0:23:59.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,state of denial, which has been going on\Nsince the first judgment in 2014.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:59.53,0:24:05.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let me let me stop here as the\Nsummary of the present EU initiative,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:05.48,0:24:09.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we'll continue later.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:09.38,0:24:12.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ebelt: Thank you, Jesper.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:12.63,0:24:20.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the Commission is communicating\Nand negotiating a lot with member state
Dialogue: 0,0:24:20.80,0:24:28.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,governments, and the aim seems to be to\Nfind new ways for more mass surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:28.64,0:24:33.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So of course the question is,\Nhow do national governments
Dialogue: 0,0:24:33.80,0:24:40.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the European Union treat fundamental\Nrights and respond to the legal situation?
Dialogue: 0,0:24:40.59,0:24:48.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what is going on in EU member states?\NAnd maybe let us start with France,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:48.56,0:24:56.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where Chloé from EDRi\Ncan tell us about the situation.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:56.16,0:24:59.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Chloé Berthélémy: Sure, thanks.\NI'd like to introduce
Dialogue: 0,0:24:59.66,0:25:04.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a little bit maybe the work\Nof our EDRi member in France?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:04.52,0:25:09.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So EDRi is a network of members,\Nand one of them is La Quadrature du Net.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:09.22,0:25:12.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they were among the main
Dialogue: 0,0:25:12.95,0:25:30.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}sounds of fixing microphone{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:25:30.12,0:25:35.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hmm, would this one work? \NYes, OK. Sorry about that.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:35.49,0:25:39.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, so I wanted to talk about like the \Nwork of like La Quadrature du Net,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:39.56,0:25:45.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our EDRi member in France.\NSorry for all the technical details.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:45.13,0:25:49.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They were one of the main plaintiffs\Nthat led to the landmark ruling,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:49.98,0:25:53.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,La Quadrature du Net, that was\Nmentioned already a couple of times now.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:53.67,0:25:58.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they brought this case, like the \Nprocedure started already in 2015.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:58.01,0:26:02.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They went in front of the\NCouncil of State in France
Dialogue: 0,0:26:02.84,0:26:08.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,after the first ruling by the Court\Nof Justice of the European Union in
Dialogue: 0,0:26:08.86,0:26:15.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Digital Rights Ireland and wanted to\Nhave the legal framework in France removed
Dialogue: 0,0:26:15.27,0:26:21.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or annulled by the Council of State. And\Nobviously, that wasn't to the taste of the
Dialogue: 0,0:26:21.74,0:26:26.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,highest administrative court in France,\Nand they decided to refer yet another
Dialogue: 0,0:26:26.04,0:26:33.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,question to the Court of Justice. That led\Nto the famous ruling in 2020 in October,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:33.85,0:26:39.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,saying that the National Legal Framework\Nin France is actually contrary to EU law
Dialogue: 0,0:26:39.40,0:26:44.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and to the Charter of Fundamental Rights.\NBut unfortunately, what the kind of, the
Dialogue: 0,0:26:44.80,0:26:50.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,aftermath of this ruling in October 2020\Nshows us is that France is, possibly, one
Dialogue: 0,0:26:50.92,0:26:57.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the most aggressive, offensive\Nmember states in the EU who is willing to
Dialogue: 0,0:26:57.01,0:27:03.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really pay the price and the high price to\Nkeep its mass retention regime in place.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:03.88,0:27:09.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The reason why I'm saying this is because\Nthe government made a huge advocacy
Dialogue: 0,0:27:09.31,0:27:15.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,campaign towards the Council of State,\Nso the highest administrative court again
Dialogue: 0,0:27:15.18,0:27:21.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,charged to actually give its decision\Nafter the CJEU ruling. They submitted
Dialogue: 0,0:27:21.40,0:27:28.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,weeks before the decision was released by\Nthe Council of State, a statement of case.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:28.21,0:27:33.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in this statement of case, they\Nargued that the Court of Justice
Dialogue: 0,0:27:33.67,0:27:38.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the European Union would \Nhave actually had abused its powers,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:38.96,0:27:44.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and actually wanted to advise\Nthe Council of State to ignore
Dialogue: 0,0:27:44.49,0:27:48.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everything that the court has said,\Nand mentioned that this is
Dialogue: 0,0:27:48.35,0:27:53.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,way beyond its jurisdiction to \Nactually limit member states in the EU
Dialogue: 0,0:27:53.43,0:27:57.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with anything related to\Nthe fight against terrorism
Dialogue: 0,0:27:57.01,0:28:01.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or everything related to national security
Dialogue: 0,0:28:01.51,0:28:05.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and therefore the ruling \Nshould be completely ignored.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:05.95,0:28:13.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Council of State more or less\Nfollowed this government approach.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:13.11,0:28:20.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Obviously, not as radical position\Nas the French government said.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:20.80,0:28:24.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because I think it was \Nreported even … the press, that
Dialogue: 0,0:28:24.88,0:28:27.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at one point the French government
Dialogue: 0,0:28:27.60,0:28:33.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was really willing to even negotiate\Na reopening of the EU treaties
Dialogue: 0,0:28:33.85,0:28:38.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and notably the charter.\NThey would go as far as
Dialogue: 0,0:28:38.37,0:28:42.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going against the primary\Nlaw of the European Union
Dialogue: 0,0:28:42.33,0:28:47.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to change it in order to accommodate\NFrance needs in terms of national security.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:47.74,0:28:54.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which was pretty strong and quite telling\Nin terms of like the contradiction
Dialogue: 0,0:28:54.15,0:29:00.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there is with France's typical kind\Nof reputation as a pro-European Union
Dialogue: 0,0:29:00.06,0:29:05.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,integration leader. As like, a\Nreputation it has to just drive
Dialogue: 0,0:29:05.23,0:29:09.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,EU integration forward and\Nbe pro-European in general.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:09.16,0:29:12.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So they're really willing\Nto jeopardize their position
Dialogue: 0,0:29:12.29,0:29:18.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a strategic position in those fields \Nto keep mass surveillance in place.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:18.11,0:29:22.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so to all appearance, even\Nif the Council of States said that
Dialogue: 0,0:29:22.58,0:29:30.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the decrees in place since 2015 should\Nbe revised, they largely actually give the
Dialogue: 0,0:29:30.12,0:29:36.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legislature all the keys and solutions,\Ncorrective solutions, to just maintain the
Dialogue: 0,0:29:36.88,0:29:43.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surveillance regime in place. So how it\Ndid that? I'm not going to go through the
Dialogue: 0,0:29:43.04,0:29:48.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,entire judgment, because it's rich and\Nthere is a lot of conclusions that we
Dialogue: 0,0:29:48.00,0:29:52.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could like analyze, and it's super\Ninteresting. But maybe one that is quite
Dialogue: 0,0:29:52.00,0:29:58.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,telling I would mention. And that shows\Nlike how France is willing to do anything
Dialogue: 0,0:29:58.88,0:30:03.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to keep its data retention in place, and\Nthe matter that is indiscriminate in
Dialogue: 0,0:30:03.28,0:30:09.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,general, is the reinterpretation of the\Nnotion of national security. And in this
Dialogue: 0,0:30:09.04,0:30:14.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,notion of national security, it goes far\Nbeyond terrorism and thus was also like
Dialogue: 0,0:30:14.48,0:30:18.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,showcased during the hearing made by the\NCouncil of State just before it released
Dialogue: 0,0:30:18.80,0:30:24.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,its decision. There was the general, the\Ndirector general of the intelligence
Dialogue: 0,0:30:24.08,0:30:28.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,services, talking at the hearing and\Nmentioning 'actually terrorism, we have
Dialogue: 0,0:30:28.32,0:30:33.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the legal tools at hand. It's not so\Nmuch that you are limited in competence.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:33.76,0:30:40.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What afraid us is more like the, if we\Napply the CJEU ruling now, we will have
Dialogue: 0,0:30:40.16,0:30:46.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,less power to actually surveil and spy on\Npeople who are at the kind of the
Dialogue: 0,0:30:46.88,0:30:52.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forefront of social movements, or who are\Norganizing like demonstrations, who are
Dialogue: 0,0:30:52.16,0:30:57.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,engaged in social justice fights, and so\Non. And so in this context of, in this
Dialogue: 0,0:30:57.20,0:31:02.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,notion of national security, the Council\Nof State is putting any threat to the
Dialogue: 0,0:31:02.64,0:31:07.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,economic interests of the French nation.\NSo they are thinking about economic
Dialogue: 0,0:31:07.36,0:31:14.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,espionage, but they're also thinking about\Nmild, like drug trafficking, even like the
Dialogue: 0,0:31:14.08,0:31:19.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,smallest networks in your city suburbs?\NLike that could also fall as a threat to
Dialogue: 0,0:31:19.92,0:31:24.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,national security and justify the\Nindiscriminate and general data retention.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:24.16,0:31:31.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then lastly, the organization of non-\Nregistered protests as a permanent threat
Dialogue: 0,0:31:31.20,0:31:37.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to public peace, they call it "public\Npeace". And so that would justify
Dialogue: 0,0:31:37.18,0:31:44.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a general kind of threat to national,\Nthat would like demonstrate a threat to
Dialogue: 0,0:31:44.16,0:31:49.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,national security permanently and allow\NFrance to keep its indiscriminate and
Dialogue: 0,0:31:49.60,0:31:54.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,general data retention regime for good.\NCompletely contrary to what the Court of
Dialogue: 0,0:31:54.88,0:32:03.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Justice said, obviously. And even going\Nbeyond what France has in place until now,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:03.28,0:32:07.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was like the state of emergency. I\Nthink this is something that many of you
Dialogue: 0,0:32:07.04,0:32:11.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably heard in 2015, during the\Nterrorist attacks. France reacted
Dialogue: 0,0:32:11.60,0:32:16.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strongly, implemented a lot of measures\Nthat were anti-democratic, very like going
Dialogue: 0,0:32:16.32,0:32:20.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against rights and freedoms. That was\Nsupposed to be temporary. Unfortunately,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:20.96,0:32:26.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,following the ruling by the Court of\NJustice – and this is also a natural trend
Dialogue: 0,0:32:26.40,0:32:31.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and flow – they decided to bring all those\Nmeasures that were exceptionally allowed,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:31.84,0:32:37.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in exceptional times. And now they\Nproposed recently in April – just a
Dialogue: 0,0:32:37.81,0:32:44.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,few weeks after, a month after actually\Nthe decision of the Council – a reform that
Dialogue: 0,0:32:44.34,0:32:51.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,brings everything, all of these measures\Ninto ordinary law. So obviously what the
Dialogue: 0,0:32:51.04,0:32:56.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Council of State has said: indiscriminate\Ngeneral retention obviously always OK,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:56.48,0:33:01.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because there's constantly threats to\Nnational security. But there is obviously
Dialogue: 0,0:33:01.28,0:33:09.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other measures linked to house arrest, use\Nof drones, cooperation with private actors
Dialogue: 0,0:33:09.68,0:33:14.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to enable government hacking into end\Ndevices of users, etc. etc. And so all
Dialogue: 0,0:33:14.88,0:33:19.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of this is packaged into one nice little\Nlaw. And the latest development that I can
Dialogue: 0,0:33:19.68,0:33:24.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,share with you in France is that the …
Dialogue: 0,0:33:24.68,0:33:28.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the socialists in the parliament blocked
Dialogue: 0,0:33:28.80,0:33:34.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,submission of this bill to the council,\Nthe Constitutional Council of France, the
Dialogue: 0,0:33:34.24,0:33:38.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,only kind of institution that is left,\Nthat kind of like control a little bit
Dialogue: 0,0:33:38.72,0:33:43.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what the government has to say,\Nand put forward as legislation.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:43.84,0:33:48.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And unfortunately, the part related,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:48.65,0:33:52.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like the provision related \Nto data retention in this bill
Dialogue: 0,0:33:52.56,0:33:55.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,weren't submitted to \Nthe Constitutional Council,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:55.39,0:33:59.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so they never had any say in this.\NAnd so now the project is adopted.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:59.19,0:34:01.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is like, this is…
Dialogue: 0,0:34:01.23,0:34:05.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Voilà. Rubber stamped. What the\NCouncil of State has decided for France.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:05.47,0:34:11.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this will be very difficult\Nin the future to attack again.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:11.37,0:34:14.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ebelt: Thank you, Chloé.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:14.61,0:34:19.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I must admit that it is extremely\Ninteresting to hear about the situation
Dialogue: 0,0:34:19.27,0:34:28.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in France, but it's also extremely shocking\Nto hear about the strong tensions in the
Dialogue: 0,0:34:28.87,0:34:35.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,relations between governments and courts,\Nand governments and rule of law.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:35.72,0:34:38.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And now, to everybody \Nwho's watching this talk live,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:38.91,0:34:44.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can send in your \Nquestions to the speakers
Dialogue: 0,0:34:44.44,0:34:50.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by using the hashtag #rc3cwtv,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:50.16,0:34:55.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we are having a Q&A\Nafter, right after the talk.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:55.28,0:35:01.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And maybe we will come \Nback to this point in the Q&A.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:01.28,0:35:09.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the hashtag is for \NMastodon and Twitter.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:09.53,0:35:14.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Since recently, \Nthere's a new government in Berlin.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:14.19,0:35:19.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And also, Germany is next to\Nor together with France
Dialogue: 0,0:35:19.68,0:35:24.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a big and important player in EU politics.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:24.95,0:35:29.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So also, there's a new situation\Nin Germany with data retention.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:29.79,0:35:33.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And of course, \Nthis question goes to Patrick Breyer
Dialogue: 0,0:35:33.17,0:35:37.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a German member\Nof the European Parliament.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:37.72,0:35:42.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Patrick, what can you tell us\Nabout the situation in Germany?
Dialogue: 0,0:35:42.91,0:35:47.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Breyer: Well, legally speaking,\Nindiscriminate data retention legislation
Dialogue: 0,0:35:47.79,0:35:53.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is in force, but it's not being applied\Ndue to a pending court cases that have
Dialogue: 0,0:35:53.65,0:35:59.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,said that it violates the EU case law\Nand charter of fundamental rights.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:59.64,0:36:05.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The European Court of Justice will rule,\Nwill decide next year on the compatibility
Dialogue: 0,0:36:05.44,0:36:12.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the German regime with the European\Nfundamental rights. And in the meantime,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:12.49,0:36:19.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the new government has agreed that data\Nshould be retained on an ad hoc basis
Dialogue: 0,0:36:19.07,0:36:27.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and by judicial order only. Now, on \Nthe one hand side, this excludes sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:36:27.17,0:36:31.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,indiscriminate and general regime. But on\Nthe other hand, after what you've
Dialogue: 0,0:36:31.72,0:36:36.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,heard from previous speakers, you will\Nknow that it does not exclude, for
Dialogue: 0,0:36:36.12,0:36:42.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,example, a geographically targeted\Nretention that could cover vast parts of
Dialogue: 0,0:36:42.13,0:36:48.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the country, above average crime rates\Nand the like. Nor does it really exclude the
Dialogue: 0,0:36:48.30,0:36:55.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention of data referring to a present\Nor foreseeable national security threat,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:55.35,0:37:01.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which could also be said to be on an ad\Nhoc basis. So we'll have to watch
Dialogue: 0,0:37:01.57,0:37:07.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very closely what the government will do.\NThe Liberals and the new Justice Minister
Dialogue: 0,0:37:07.16,0:37:13.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are advocating for quick-freeze. But\Nthere is a risk, for example, that in the
Dialogue: 0,0:37:13.04,0:37:17.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pending procedure, the courts will not\Ninvalidate indiscriminate IP data
Dialogue: 0,0:37:17.51,0:37:21.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention. You know, saying that the\NEuropean Court of Justice said all IP data
Dialogue: 0,0:37:21.91,0:37:26.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention is OK. And there is a risk that\Nthe coalition cannot agree, cannot find a
Dialogue: 0,0:37:26.47,0:37:32.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,majority to agree on abolishing it\Npolitically. So we'll have to see and
Dialogue: 0,0:37:32.34,0:37:39.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,watch very closely how the new government\Nwill behave also at a European level.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:39.58,0:37:47.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ebelt: Thank you, Patrick. You said there\Nis a pending procedure on data retention
Dialogue: 0,0:37:47.12,0:37:54.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Germany, and I know there's also a\Npending court case, if I'm not mistaken,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:54.40,0:38:00.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the national data \Nretention regime in Ireland.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:00.54,0:38:07.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And TJ, what can you tell us \Nabout the situation in Ireland?
Dialogue: 0,0:38:07.32,0:38:10.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,McIntyre: So there are, in fact, three
Dialogue: 0,0:38:10.37,0:38:14.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cases before the Court of Justice at this\Nmoment: one from Germany, one from
Dialogue: 0,0:38:14.45,0:38:19.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ireland, and a parallel one from France.\NAnd what to me is very interesting about
Dialogue: 0,0:38:19.44,0:38:22.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those cases is not so much the questions\Nthat are asked, but how the court has been
Dialogue: 0,0:38:22.87,0:38:25.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,dealing with the case. So the questions\Nthat are asked are basically the same
Dialogue: 0,0:38:25.77,0:38:31.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,questions over again. Can we have\Nindiscriminate mass retention of data
Dialogue: 0,0:38:31.41,0:38:35.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where we need it for dealing with serious\Ncrimes? That is essentially the question
Dialogue: 0,0:38:35.38,0:38:38.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the Irish court has asked. Again,\Nit's basically putting it up to the
Dialogue: 0,0:38:38.90,0:38:44.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European Court of Justice to change its\Nmind. And then the questions from
Dialogue: 0,0:38:44.67,0:38:49.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Germany are very similar, because we're\Ndealing with the law, which is again
Dialogue: 0,0:38:49.00,0:38:53.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,indiscriminate, albeit that the German\Nretention period has now been reduced to
Dialogue: 0,0:38:53.33,0:38:58.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,approximately 10 weeks, I think, Patrick.\NAnd the question from France is a slightly
Dialogue: 0,0:38:58.91,0:39:02.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more technical question and parralel area\Nof law. But again, the national
Dialogue: 0,0:39:02.64,0:39:06.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,governments were taking the opportunity\Nhere to push the agenda of looking to
Dialogue: 0,0:39:06.58,0:39:11.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rewind the time machine to 2014, prior to\Nthe Digital Rights Ireland judgment, and
Dialogue: 0,0:39:11.58,0:39:15.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,go back to a situation where mass\Nindiscriminate retention was allowed.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:15.40,0:39:18.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What the court did, to my mind\Nwhich was very interesting,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:18.11,0:39:21.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in dealing with these cases, was\Nit initially said, right, we're going to
Dialogue: 0,0:39:21.74,0:39:26.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ask the national courts, do they really\Nwant us to hear these cases?
Dialogue: 0,0:39:26.28,0:39:29.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,After the La Quadrature du Net\Njudgement the Supreme Court of Justice
Dialogue: 0,0:39:29.13,0:39:31.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reached out to the Irish Supreme\NCourt, for example, and said to it
Dialogue: 0,0:39:31.61,0:39:35.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,essentially, "Listen, we've already \Nanswered your question. Do you
Dialogue: 0,0:39:35.08,0:39:41.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really want to go ahead with this case?"\NAnd in fact, the advocate general
Dialogue: 0,0:39:41.17,0:39:48.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,suggested something even more\Ndramatic, if you like, as a response.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:48.03,0:39:51.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Where he said that the \Nresponse of the courts should be
Dialogue: 0,0:39:51.16,0:39:58.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to dispose of the case using Article 99 of\Nthe Rules of Procedure of the court.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:58.22,0:40:01.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now that might not sound very interesting,\Nbut Article 99 basically means you can take
Dialogue: 0,0:40:01.88,0:40:05.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an incoming request from a national court\Nand say, "We've dealt with this already. We
Dialogue: 0,0:40:05.81,0:40:10.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We don't need to hear this case, and we\Ncan dispose of it without a hearing." So
Dialogue: 0,0:40:10.61,0:40:16.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the advocate general and I think the court\Nitself is intent here on sending a signal
Dialogue: 0,0:40:16.67,0:40:21.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we've decided, we've made up our\Nminds regarding these cases, we're not
Dialogue: 0,0:40:21.14,0:40:24.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interested in hearing more and more\Nnational cases coming back to us for
Dialogue: 0,0:40:24.41,0:40:28.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,national governments. We'd really like you\Nto change your mind now. The Court of
Dialogue: 0,0:40:28.39,0:40:32.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Justice, to my mind, is about to send a\Nsignal here where it says, look, the law
Dialogue: 0,0:40:32.91,0:40:37.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on this point is settled. Please go and\Ntry and implement that law in good faith,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:37.24,0:40:41.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as opposed to coming back to us with ever\Nmore ingenious ways of arguing in favor of
Dialogue: 0,0:40:41.56,0:40:45.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mass data retention. The real question, of\Ncourse, is whether that's going to happen,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:45.81,0:40:50.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether national courts are going –\Nnational governments, I should say – are
Dialogue: 0,0:40:50.38,0:40:54.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,prepared to respect the rule of law. Or\Nwhether, as Chloé pointed out, they're
Dialogue: 0,0:40:54.37,0:40:59.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going to be prepared to continue to\Nmanufacture a crisis, to manufacture a
Dialogue: 0,0:40:59.86,0:41:04.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collision between national law and\NEuropean law for the sake of promoting
Dialogue: 0,0:41:04.81,0:41:09.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this surveillance agenda. And\Nunfortunately, I suspect the national
Dialogue: 0,0:41:09.66,0:41:13.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,governments are more likely to do the\Nlatter than the former. I think it is very
Dialogue: 0,0:41:13.16,0:41:17.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,likely that we'll continue to see pushback\Nfrom them.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:17.56,0:41:25.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ebelt: Thank you. Next question goes to\NJesper. And it would be, how is the signal
Dialogue: 0,0:41:25.52,0:41:31.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– that's how you, TJ, framed what's going\Non – how is the signal from the European
Dialogue: 0,0:41:31.52,0:41:36.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Court of Justice received in Denmark?
Dialogue: 0,0:41:36.33,0:41:38.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lund: Well, thank you very much.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:38.86,0:41:39.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}cough{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:41:39.89,0:41:46.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sorry. Well, the current Danish data\Nretention law, which is about to be
Dialogue: 0,0:41:46.16,0:41:50.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,updated, is essentially the old data\Nretention directive, so general and
Dialogue: 0,0:41:50.88,0:41:54.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,indiscriminate data retention of\Ntelecommunications services,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:54.06,0:41:56.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kept for one year.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:56.29,0:42:01.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's a court challenge to that\Nwhich is still ongoing. The Association
Dialogue: 0,0:42:01.84,0:42:07.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Against Illegal and Mass Surveillance\Nactually lost the case in the first
Dialogue: 0,0:42:07.36,0:42:11.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,instance because the government, the\NMinistry of Justice, argued that the
Dialogue: 0,0:42:11.12,0:42:15.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Danish law should not be annulled. Rather,\Nit should not be applied to the extent
Dialogue: 0,0:42:15.36,0:42:21.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it is against EU law. So to some\Nextent, this is the same situation as in
Dialogue: 0,0:42:21.52,0:42:29.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Germany, although the Danish\Ntelecommunications providers are retaining
Dialogue: 0,0:42:29.60,0:42:34.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the data voluntarily as though the law is\Nstill in effect. So to some extent, that
Dialogue: 0,0:42:34.32,0:42:38.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a sweet spot for the government.\NOfficially they do not have to apply the
Dialogue: 0,0:42:38.88,0:42:44.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data retention law, but telecommunications\Nproviders are respecting it anyhow.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:44.56,0:42:49.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nonetheless, the Danish government has\Ntaken upon itself the task of adjusting
Dialogue: 0,0:42:49.44,0:42:55.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Danish law, claiming that after these\Nadjustments, it will be compatible with
Dialogue: 0,0:42:55.28,0:42:59.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the case law of the Court of Justice. So\Nthat sounds very interesting.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:59.28,0:43:04.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Unfortunately it's a total exercise in\Ncircumventing the court, because, in the
Dialogue: 0,0:43:04.64,0:43:10.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,end, we will have almost exactly the same\Ndata retention as we have today. It'll
Dialogue: 0,0:43:10.64,0:43:15.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just be relabeled in a way that the\Ngovernment claims it complies with the
Dialogue: 0,0:43:15.52,0:43:20.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Court of Justice. And sort of the main\Nvehicle for doing that is the same one
Dialogue: 0,0:43:20.24,0:43:27.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,used in France, namely data retention for\Nnational security. So Denmark is going to
Dialogue: 0,0:43:27.52,0:43:32.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,claim similar to what France is doing,\Nthat there is a quasi-permanent threat to
Dialogue: 0,0:43:32.00,0:43:38.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,national security, which justifies the\Ngeneral and indiscriminate retention of
Dialogue: 0,0:43:38.72,0:43:47.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all communications data. Some of the\Nsafeguards in the La Quadrature
Dialogue: 0,0:43:47.52,0:43:53.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,judgements, such as review by an\Nindependent court of these renewable
Dialogue: 0,0:43:53.28,0:44:00.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,decisions for general and indiscriminate\Ndata retention, are ignored completely.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:00.08,0:44:04.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Ministry of Justice says, well you can\Nsue us if you disagree with our decisions,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:04.80,0:44:10.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and by the way, the your civil court case\Nwill not get access to all the evidence
Dialogue: 0,0:44:10.24,0:44:15.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the Ministry of Justice used\Nto justify the general and
Dialogue: 0,0:44:15.52,0:44:19.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,indiscriminate data retention due to our\Nthreat to national security. So it's an
Dialogue: 0,0:44:19.52,0:44:23.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,almost impossible situation. However, it\Ngets even worse, because you if you have
Dialogue: 0,0:44:23.92,0:44:28.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data retention for national security, you\Nwould sort of by the principle of purpose
Dialogue: 0,0:44:28.24,0:44:33.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,limitation, you would assume that it is\Nlimited to that purpose only. The Danish
Dialogue: 0,0:44:33.28,0:44:38.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,government disagrees with that, because\Nthe retained data, similar to France, can
Dialogue: 0,0:44:38.08,0:44:42.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also be used for serious crime. So that\Nis, in effect, maintaining the current
Dialogue: 0,0:44:42.96,0:44:47.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data retention regime, except relabeling\Nit as data retention for national
Dialogue: 0,0:44:47.76,0:44:53.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,security, but mainly used for the purpose\Nof combating serious crime, as it is done
Dialogue: 0,0:44:53.76,0:45:01.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,currently. There's a small catch here. The\NDanish government recognizes that there is
Dialogue: 0,0:45:01.52,0:45:05.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,significant legal uncertainty with this\Ninterpretation that it can't be used or
Dialogue: 0,0:45:05.92,0:45:10.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,accessed in cases of serious crime. So\Nit's actually very possible that
Dialogue: 0,0:45:10.72,0:45:15.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Denmark will one day send a data\Nretention case to Luxembourg. So let's see
Dialogue: 0,0:45:15.92,0:45:21.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how that goes, when the Court of Justice\Nbelieves that every possible question
Dialogue: 0,0:45:21.28,0:45:26.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about data retention has been answered.\NBut this is not the end of the story in
Dialogue: 0,0:45:26.48,0:45:31.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Denmark. So the Minister of Justice is\Naware that one day it may not be possible
Dialogue: 0,0:45:31.60,0:45:37.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to maintain general indiscriminate data\Nretention, because it has to be for a time
Dialogue: 0,0:45:37.04,0:45:42.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,limited period, so that cannot be evaded\Nforever. There's also the possibility that
Dialogue: 0,0:45:42.24,0:45:47.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Danish government might lose a court\Ncase. So as an insurance policy to cover
Dialogue: 0,0:45:47.12,0:45:54.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this situation, there is a provision on\Ntargeted data retention. This would only
Dialogue: 0,0:45:54.40,0:45:58.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kick in if the general and indiscriminate\Ndata retention for national security
Dialogue: 0,0:45:58.48,0:46:04.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cannot continue. And it is not really\Ntargeted, because the, just like the
Dialogue: 0,0:46:04.16,0:46:09.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European Commission obviously tries to do\Nwith the non-paper that I
Dialogue: 0,0:46:09.76,0:46:15.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,described earlier, so the Danish\Ngovernment is taking the possibilities for
Dialogue: 0,0:46:15.12,0:46:21.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,targeted data retention, adding them\Ntogether to the extreme. So the
Dialogue: 0,0:46:21.36,0:46:27.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,general criterion for above average crime\Nrates is defined in a way that makes no
Dialogue: 0,0:46:27.12,0:46:33.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,adjustment for a population density. So\Nany city or city-like area in Denmark will
Dialogue: 0,0:46:33.28,0:46:38.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have an above average number of crime\Ncases, and that will be included in the
Dialogue: 0,0:46:38.83,0:46:45.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,geographical targeted data retention. \NSo 5%…sorry. 75% of the Danish population
Dialogue: 0,0:46:45.12,0:46:50.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lives in 5% of the Danish territory, the\Ncities. They will be surveilled just like
Dialogue: 0,0:46:50.88,0:46:56.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before. On top of that, you have\Ninfrastructure sites: every train station
Dialogue: 0,0:46:56.40,0:47:03.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or almost every train station and the\Nmobile towers are selected, so that these
Dialogue: 0,0:47:03.76,0:47:08.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,areas are covered in full even though it\Nmeans surveilling people outside these
Dialogue: 0,0:47:08.48,0:47:14.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,areas. So in the end, with the targeted\Ndata retention, something like 80 to 90 %
Dialogue: 0,0:47:14.40,0:47:19.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the Danish population will be covered.\NOn top of that, there are person-based
Dialogue: 0,0:47:19.76,0:47:24.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,criteria, where every person convicted of\Nserious crime, every person that's
Dialogue: 0,0:47:24.97,0:47:29.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been subject to lawful interception,\Ncriteria mentioned in the non-paper from
Dialogue: 0,0:47:29.92,0:47:35.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the commission. And even with all of that\N– generalized indiscriminate data
Dialogue: 0,0:47:35.76,0:47:40.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention continuing, an insurance policy\Nwith targeted data retention that covers
Dialogue: 0,0:47:40.64,0:47:45.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,80 to 90 % of the Danish population – the\NDanish politicians, those that are in
Dialogue: 0,0:47:45.84,0:47:51.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,favor of data retention, which is a vast\Nmajority, complain that they have to
Dialogue: 0,0:47:51.60,0:47:55.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,restrict the law because of the Court of\NJustice in Luxembourg. And they are
Dialogue: 0,0:47:55.76,0:48:00.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,saying, these are, they're really using\Nrhetoric that's that we would expect from
Dialogue: 0,0:48:00.32,0:48:05.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from Hungary and Poland. Judges lack the\Ndemocratic legitimacy, why should they
Dialogue: 0,0:48:05.92,0:48:10.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interfere with Danish politics, and so\Nforth. That is a really terrible situation
Dialogue: 0,0:48:10.80,0:48:20.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the rule of law in Denmark and\NEurope in general. So this is sort of...
Dialogue: 0,0:48:20.03,0:48:26.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on a couple of minor tweaks also, there\Nwill be mandatory SIM card registration in
Dialogue: 0,0:48:26.90,0:48:31.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Denmark as one of the last EU member\Nstates to introduce that,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:31.78,0:48:36.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unfortunately. There are a couple of\Nothers that also don't have it yet.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:36.49,0:48:42.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the threshold for serious crime will be\Nlowered as well. So in effect, even though
Dialogue: 0,0:48:42.37,0:48:46.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if this is presented as adjusting to the\Ncase law of the Court of Justice, we will
Dialogue: 0,0:48:46.83,0:48:52.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have in practice more data retention and\Npolice would have easier access to the
Dialogue: 0,0:48:52.10,0:48:57.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data. I really hope that this does not\Nbecome a blueprint for how other member
Dialogue: 0,0:48:57.51,0:49:03.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,states in Europe adapt to the \Ncase law from the Court of Justice.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:03.01,0:49:07.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it is unfortunately following the\Nnon-paper from the Commission,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:07.79,0:49:13.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,perhaps putting it to the extreme \Nmore than the Commission intended.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:13.29,0:49:17.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But certainly not\Nthe response that we hoped for.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:17.80,0:49:21.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the fight in Denmark will continue, \NI can assure you of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:21.45,0:49:25.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And let me stop here and \Npass the word back to Friedemann.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:25.74,0:49:28.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ebelt: Thank you, Jesper. Yes…
Dialogue: 0,0:49:28.24,0:49:31.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think the fight needs to continue.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:31.19,0:49:38.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you said that a lot of data\Nretention politics has to do with
Dialogue: 0,0:49:38.70,0:49:44.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,circumventing the court and \Nignoring decisions and the rule of law.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:44.01,0:49:52.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And on an EU level, a lot of this politics\Ntakes place, of course, in process at the
Dialogue: 0,0:49:52.92,0:49:58.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European Parliament, at the Commission.\NSo…
Dialogue: 0,0:49:58.04,0:50:01.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And after hearing this, I… Yeah. I hope…
Dialogue: 0,0:50:01.15,0:50:08.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Chloé, maybe you have some good news \Nfor us? What is the situation in Belgium?
Dialogue: 0,0:50:08.56,0:50:13.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Berthélémy: I'm afraid not so \Ngood news either from Belgium.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:13.09,0:50:17.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let me try to a draw a little bit \Nthe situation from what happened
Dialogue: 0,0:50:17.04,0:50:23.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,since, again, the landmark ruling\Nin October 2020. So it's funny. The
Dialogue: 0,0:50:23.10,0:50:28.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Constitutional Court in Belgium released\Nits decision following that, that ruling
Dialogue: 0,0:50:28.92,0:50:35.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the 21st of April. So that means one\Nday after the French Council of State gave
Dialogue: 0,0:50:35.58,0:50:41.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,its decision. And I listened to the\NPresident of the Court of Justice, who was
Dialogue: 0,0:50:41.17,0:50:46.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,invited once at a French National\NAssembly, in front of the committee
Dialogue: 0,0:50:46.30,0:50:50.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,specialized in legal affairs and European\Naffairs. And he were saying, "Oh, don't
Dialogue: 0,0:50:50.97,0:50:55.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you imagine that those two jurists, the\Ntwo courts obviously talk to each other,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:55.19,0:50:59.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this is why they released their\Njudgment so close to one another." And
Dialogue: 0,0:50:59.35,0:51:04.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those are two very neighboring countries,\Nfriend countries. So you can imagine that
Dialogue: 0,0:51:04.03,0:51:08.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they discussed and they exchanged\Non their point of view on the CJEU ruling.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:08.75,0:51:13.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was like, well, probably if this is the\Ncase, they… probably like the conclusion
Dialogue: 0,0:51:13.39,0:51:17.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of their talks was "we agree to disagree."\NBecause the Constitutional Court of
Dialogue: 0,0:51:17.87,0:51:23.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Belgium choose a completely divergent way\Ncompared to the French Council of States –
Dialogue: 0,0:51:23.16,0:51:29.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which I remind you completely to go\Ncompletely rogue and ignore the court's
Dialogue: 0,0:51:29.64,0:51:36.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,main conclusions – the Constitutional Court\Ndecided to basically implement what the
Dialogue: 0,0:51:36.59,0:51:44.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CJEU said. And decided, gave the Belgian\Ngovernment the task to find the solution
Dialogue: 0,0:51:44.72,0:51:50.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for itself. So completely something else,\Nthan the French Council of State has done.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:50.100,0:51:57.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which, in its case, was really like \Ngiving the French government the concrete
Dialogue: 0,0:51:57.49,0:52:04.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,corrective measures to maintain its regime\Nin place. In Belgium, it was: Your legal
Dialogue: 0,0:52:04.40,0:52:10.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,system is false and should is annulled.\NNow you have to work on the solutions
Dialogue: 0,0:52:10.51,0:52:14.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yourself. And so this is what the\Ngovernment has been doing. They have done
Dialogue: 0,0:52:14.43,0:52:19.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it for a month only. So a month later they\Ncame up with a bill, with a proposal
Dialogue: 0,0:52:19.74,0:52:25.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for a new law. And that was proposed by\Nthe Council of Ministers. Mainly what the
Dialogue: 0,0:52:25.79,0:52:32.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bill contained is a system, is a regime for\Ntargeted retention. So they they are not
Dialogue: 0,0:52:32.36,0:52:39.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even like going for the national security\Nmass retention thing.They try out the
Dialogue: 0,0:52:39.00,0:52:44.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,targeted retention approach, and they\Nmainly focus on the criteria of
Dialogue: 0,0:52:44.70,0:52:52.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,geographical areas. They also include\Nindividual-based criteria, but mainly they
Dialogue: 0,0:52:52.77,0:52:57.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,focus on how can we maintain data\Nretention as much as possible based on
Dialogue: 0,0:52:57.66,0:53:04.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this geographical measures and\Nmeasurements. And this is basically what
Dialogue: 0,0:53:04.32,0:53:09.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jesper explained for Denmark. This isn't\Nvery far from actually including the
Dialogue: 0,0:53:09.89,0:53:15.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,entire country on there, just "targeted"\Ndata retention. The way to do that is,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:15.15,0:53:21.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they the select first like geographical\Nareas that they call "by nature sensitive"
Dialogue: 0,0:53:21.30,0:53:26.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for national security or for any kind of\Npublic security. And that includes
Dialogue: 0,0:53:26.38,0:53:30.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,airports, train stations, metro stations,\Nso you can already imagine that Brussels
Dialogue: 0,0:53:30.99,0:53:36.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is entirely covered, the border zones\Nwith like the neighboring countries,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:36.24,0:53:41.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hospitals, motorways (there's a lot of\Nmotorways in Belgium), research centers
Dialogue: 0,0:53:41.84,0:53:46.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so everything that has to do with like\Nstate innovation, state research and
Dialogue: 0,0:53:46.57,0:53:51.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everything, justice and police buildings,\Nand all infrastructure, and then all the
Dialogue: 0,0:53:51.22,0:53:57.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,municipalities. So the entire territory of\Nthe municipality of a city, even small,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:57.97,0:54:03.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which has on its territory critical\Ninfrastructures. So water supply, energy
Dialogue: 0,0:54:03.67,0:54:08.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,supply, everything. And you can\Nalready see like, it's just this list of
Dialogue: 0,0:54:08.51,0:54:14.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,geographical like places that the\Ngovernment selected. Given the density,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:14.96,0:54:20.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the urban density of Belgium, the size of\Nthe country, it already covers quite a
Dialogue: 0,0:54:20.47,0:54:25.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bunch of people. And a large proportion of\Nthe population will be submitted to data
Dialogue: 0,0:54:25.32,0:54:32.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention, to this "targeted" just in name\Nretention. And they all also use, as
Dialogue: 0,0:54:32.64,0:54:39.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Denmark, the average crime rate. \NThis has been criticized heavily by the
Dialogue: 0,0:54:39.92,0:54:46.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Data Protection Authority in Belgium. They\Nsaid that the Minister of Justice failed to
Dialogue: 0,0:54:46.58,0:54:52.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,provide any statistics to actually explain\Nwhy they decided this number, this amount
Dialogue: 0,0:54:52.88,0:54:59.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of years. And they even criticized the\Nsource of the statistics that will be used
Dialogue: 0,0:54:59.20,0:55:04.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to determine whether a judicial district\Nwill be subjected to data retention or
Dialogue: 0,0:55:04.90,0:55:10.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not, because the government wants to use a\Npolice database where crimes are
Dialogue: 0,0:55:10.26,0:55:15.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,registered. But it's mainly managed and\Nit's exclusively managed by police
Dialogue: 0,0:55:15.21,0:55:19.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,officers. So there is a high risk and a\Nconflict of interest that police officer
Dialogue: 0,0:55:19.59,0:55:26.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will just determine one minor act or one\Nminor offense into a serious crime. And so
Dialogue: 0,0:55:26.23,0:55:31.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,therefore their police district or their\Njudicial district will fall under data
Dialogue: 0,0:55:31.44,0:55:37.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention. The database is called the BNG,\Nthe BNG. And it was heavily criticized by
Dialogue: 0,0:55:37.67,0:55:43.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,journalists in Belgium. They released an\Nentire investigation into the BNG, and
Dialogue: 0,0:55:43.12,0:55:48.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they show that the BNG mostly contained\Nfalse, like a lot of false information,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:48.70,0:55:56.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rumors, non-verified information, or\Noutdated information as well. And so the
Dialogue: 0,0:55:56.67,0:56:00.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,DPA, the Data Protection Authority,\Nrequired that they use a different
Dialogue: 0,0:56:00.92,0:56:06.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,database with actual like criminal offense\Nthat led to a conviction that led to a
Dialogue: 0,0:56:06.99,0:56:12.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,criminal sentence. Which makes more sense,\Nit's not even given. So this is all the
Dialogue: 0,0:56:12.44,0:56:18.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,problems we see with the Belgian bill.\NThis is not limited to that, it is only
Dialogue: 0,0:56:18.22,0:56:24.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the two things that I can mention now.\NThere are many other problems that the DPA
Dialogue: 0,0:56:24.13,0:56:31.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,objected to. But for now, the chance we\Nhad is that this bill also contained very
Dialogue: 0,0:56:31.52,0:56:38.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,dangerous and controversial provisions on\Naccess to encrypted content, with the
Dialogue: 0,0:56:38.26,0:56:43.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,possibility to force service providers to\Nswitch off encryption for certain users.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:43.29,0:56:47.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And thanks to that, there was enough like\Nresistance from civil society and outrage
Dialogue: 0,0:56:47.81,0:56:53.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the public to halt a little bit the\Nbill. So now it's still under negotiations
Dialogue: 0,0:56:53.22,0:56:58.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with between the ministers before it is\Npresented to the parliament.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:58.31,0:57:03.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we hopefully can also bring \Nsome more attention and traction
Dialogue: 0,0:57:03.55,0:57:10.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the data retention provision \Nof this law, and try to…
Dialogue: 0,0:57:10.09,0:57:13.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, halt as much as possible
Dialogue: 0,0:57:13.07,0:57:19.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the general mass retention of metadata\Nin Belgium as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:19.66,0:57:26.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ebelt: Thank you, Chloé. OK. There are\Nmany, many problems, but luckily there's
Dialogue: 0,0:57:26.33,0:57:31.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also civil society, and there are also\Nfreedom advocates.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:31.55,0:57:40.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the big question I would really, \Nreally like to hear your opinion on is,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:40.76,0:57:43.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what do you expect from the future?
Dialogue: 0,0:57:43.20,0:57:50.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How should governments – but also maybe \Nthe Commission of the European Union – act?
Dialogue: 0,0:57:50.64,0:57:54.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What should they do?
Dialogue: 0,0:57:54.22,0:57:59.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let's hear TJ first.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:59.85,0:58:06.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,McIntyre: Thanks Friedemann. Well, I think\Nthe problem is, we know what governments
Dialogue: 0,0:58:06.08,0:58:11.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,should do, which is comply with the law,\Nand that they're unwilling to do that. So
Dialogue: 0,0:58:11.11,0:58:16.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,perhaps the question could become, what\Ncan we do to force them to comply with the
Dialogue: 0,0:58:16.28,0:58:22.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,law? Now, as civil society, we are\Ncollectively already very much
Dialogue: 0,0:58:22.09,0:58:26.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,overstretched, I think. Particularly, at\Nthe moment most people are doing this,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:26.88,0:58:34.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,myself included, as a part time thing.\NIt's unusual to have an organization such
Dialogue: 0,0:58:34.72,0:58:40.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as EDRi, which is quite professional in\Nthis regard, when particularly the smaller
Dialogue: 0,0:58:40.70,0:58:44.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,member states, this tends to be a part\Ntime activity for a small number of
Dialogue: 0,0:58:44.48,0:58:48.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,technologists, a small number of lawyers,\Nand so on. So maybe the first thing
Dialogue: 0,0:58:48.46,0:58:52.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everybody should be doing is supporting\Ntheir local digital rights organization
Dialogue: 0,0:58:52.37,0:58:57.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think probably all agreed on that.\NOtherwise, we're caught in something of a
Dialogue: 0,0:58:57.82,0:59:04.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,loop here where we're being reactive.\NGovernments put forward laws which are
Dialogue: 0,0:59:04.13,0:59:09.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ever more draconian, which very often\Nbreach existing precedent from the Court
Dialogue: 0,0:59:09.85,0:59:14.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of Justice, never mind the Court of Human\NRights. And we as civil society have to
Dialogue: 0,0:59:14.99,0:59:20.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,respond to that very expensively. The\Ncost, for governments, of introducing new
Dialogue: 0,0:59:20.95,0:59:26.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,measures is, relatively speaking, low. In\Nthe sense that, if it doesn't meet with
Dialogue: 0,0:59:26.70,0:59:33.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,great domestic political pushback, it's\Nquite straightforward for them to push
Dialogue: 0,0:59:33.66,0:59:37.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forward new measures. And those measures\Ncan often remain in place for months or
Dialogue: 0,0:59:37.68,0:59:43.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even years before there is litigation to\Nchallenge them, if indeed it's possible in
Dialogue: 0,0:59:43.16,0:59:47.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a particular jurisdiction to bring\Nlitigation to challenge them. So as civil
Dialogue: 0,0:59:47.42,0:59:52.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,society, we're always on the back foot\Nhere. It is very much a reactive sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:59:52.72,0:59:57.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,game that we're playing. Ultimately, we\Nneed to increase the costs for pushing
Dialogue: 0,0:59:57.69,1:00:03.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these kinds of very illiberal measures,\Nand we need to do that at the point when
Dialogue: 0,1:00:03.06,1:00:06.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those measures are being proposed and\Nadopted. And I think we can learn here
Dialogue: 0,1:00:06.49,1:00:11.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the German experience and the way in\Nwhich data retention and encryption and
Dialogue: 0,1:00:11.28,1:00:16.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communications have been baked into the\Ncoalition government's negotiations.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:16.80,1:00:22.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's something which I think we, as\Nvoters and advocates need to try to get
Dialogue: 0,1:00:22.02,1:00:27.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our governments to do at the point where\Nthose governments are being formed. Short
Dialogue: 0,1:00:27.22,1:00:30.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of that, though, I don't really have any\Ngreat answer, Friedemann. I'm sorry.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:30.48,1:00:34.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Perhaps somebody else might be able to\Ntake it further.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:34.58,1:00:43.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ebelt: I think that's a great answer. And\Nyet, Patrick, what we what are your
Dialogue: 0,1:00:43.20,1:00:54.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thoughts on the future?\NBreyer: Well, I can tell for the European
Dialogue: 0,1:00:54.22,1:01:02.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Parliament that I don't know what the\Nmajorities would be if the commission
Dialogue: 0,1:01:02.89,1:01:08.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proposed another data retention\Nlegislation. Because, you know – having
Dialogue: 0,1:01:08.60,1:01:14.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,seen what's happened with chat control,\Nwhere they justified even the scanning of
Dialogue: 0,1:01:14.37,1:01:19.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,content of communications, a blanket\Nindiscriminate, using the child protection
Dialogue: 0,1:01:19.85,1:01:24.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,killer argument – I'm not sure that the\NEuropean Parliament's majority would go
Dialogue: 0,1:01:24.34,1:01:30.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against another data retention instrument,\Nespecially if it claims to abide by the
Dialogue: 0,1:01:30.91,1:01:35.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European Court of Justice jurisprudence.\NAnd also, I'm very outraged at the
Dialogue: 0,1:01:35.74,1:01:39.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European Data Protection supervisor who,\Nin those court hearings that we've
Dialogue: 0,1:01:39.75,1:01:46.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discussed earlier, actually undermines the\NECJ jurisprudence and says, you know, what
Dialogue: 0,1:01:46.08,1:01:51.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,matters is access to data, not so much the\Nstorage. It's really outrageous. So, but
Dialogue: 0,1:01:51.10,1:01:56.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one good thing from the European\NParliament is that in the pending trilogue
Dialogue: 0,1:01:56.65,1:02:04.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the eprivacy regulation, on the reform,\Nthe majority agrees that we won't accept
Dialogue: 0,1:02:04.28,1:02:08.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have data retention in that specific\Ninstrument, because it's about eprivacy and
Dialogue: 0,1:02:08.79,1:02:15.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not about e-surveillance. So what I'm\Ntrying to do at the EU level is to
Dialogue: 0,1:02:15.74,1:02:21.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,push back in the very early stages of the\Npolitical process. First of all, I'm very
Dialogue: 0,1:02:21.85,1:02:28.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,happy that I found Friedemann to\Nsupport my work. Last year, I have
Dialogue: 0,1:02:28.24,1:02:32.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,commissioned a study by the European\NParliament's research service to compare
Dialogue: 0,1:02:32.00,1:02:36.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,crime rates throughout the EU. I've\Nalready told you about that. And
Dialogue: 0,1:02:36.03,1:02:41.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,currently, I have commissioned a poll to\Nfind out the public opinion on data
Dialogue: 0,1:02:41.10,1:02:46.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retention in several EU countries. We'll\Nhave the results early next year. And
Dialogue: 0,1:02:46.96,1:02:55.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I will also commission a legal opinion, \Nask a former Court of Justice, European
Dialogue: 0,1:02:55.32,1:03:00.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Court of Justice judge, to write a legal \Nopinion on the French resurrection of
Dialogue: 0,1:03:00.21,1:03:04.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,indiscriminate data retention, because\Nthat is a model that they are using,
Dialogue: 0,1:03:04.96,1:03:09.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more and more countries are using.\NSo if you have any more ideas about
Dialogue: 0,1:03:09.42,1:03:14.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what we could do at EU level, \Nplease let me know.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:14.89,1:03:18.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ebelt: Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:18.67,1:03:26.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, Chloé, what do you expect\Nof the future or maybe 2022
Dialogue: 0,1:03:26.55,1:03:32.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from your EDRi, European rights,\NNGO perspective?
Dialogue: 0,1:03:32.52,1:03:35.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Berthélémy: Sure. Well, we'll continue
Dialogue: 0,1:03:35.52,1:03:40.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,obviously monitoring the situation at EU\Nlevels, just like Patrick does, only like
Dialogue: 0,1:03:40.32,1:03:43.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with our network of experts and NGO.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:43.74,1:03:47.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Obviously, looking at what the\NCommission has in mind and where this like
Dialogue: 0,1:03:47.46,1:03:52.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,long year process of like thinking how \Nall of this can be like put together
Dialogue: 0,1:03:52.47,1:04:00.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and enable mass data retention without like…
Dialogue: 0,1:04:00.01,1:04:06.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without like insulting too much the\NCourt of Justice will lead to actually.
Dialogue: 0,1:04:06.42,1:04:10.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That would be obviously one of \Nour main tasks for the future.
Dialogue: 0,1:04:10.61,1:04:15.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We'll continue, as I said, as a network to \Nmonitor what's going on at national level.
Dialogue: 0,1:04:15.62,1:04:21.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, and as TJ said, we are lacking resources,\Nespecially at national level,
Dialogue: 0,1:04:21.76,1:04:25.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to follow all the 27 jurisdictions.
Dialogue: 0,1:04:25.62,1:04:29.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if you're just interested, and \Nit's in your country, I would just advise
Dialogue: 0,1:04:29.79,1:04:40.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,viewers now to look at, look up on \NEDRi's website our map of members. And
Dialogue: 0,1:04:40.93,1:04:47.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You can join and get in touch with some \Nof them at their contact email address.
Dialogue: 0,1:04:47.91,1:04:52.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you want to lend a hand and \Ncontribute to just monitoring, because the
Dialogue: 0,1:04:52.56,1:04:56.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,first step of what we're doing as civil\Nsociety is just bring a light to those
Dialogue: 0,1:04:56.48,1:05:02.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,developments. Because most of the cases,\Nlike in many times, it's just going under
Dialogue: 0,1:05:02.08,1:05:07.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the radar. The media isn't picking up the\Nstories so quickly as we would like them
Dialogue: 0,1:05:07.68,1:05:15.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do, and all those kind of really\Nrights-violating measures can go unchecked
Dialogue: 0,1:05:15.20,1:05:20.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without any kind of democratic pushback or\Nanything. So this is the kind of the first
Dialogue: 0,1:05:20.08,1:05:25.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I would recommend for viewers to do\Nif they want to get engaged, is basically
Dialogue: 0,1:05:25.44,1:05:32.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,join us. Follow us on social media. Follow\Nour website. EDRi has a newsletter where
Dialogue: 0,1:05:32.72,1:05:37.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,each and every members of EDRi can\Ncontribute, and write, and even guest
Dialogue: 0,1:05:37.60,1:05:44.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,writers sometimes. If you want to\Nwrite about the situation in your country
Dialogue: 0,1:05:44.16,1:05:49.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you've investigated a little bit the\Nstate of play, please talk to us and drop
Dialogue: 0,1:05:49.60,1:05:55.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,us an email. Everything is… Obviously all\Nthe information of contact can be found on
Dialogue: 0,1:05:55.12,1:05:59.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our website. And you can\Nobviously subscribe to this newsletter.
Dialogue: 0,1:05:59.92,1:06:03.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you want to go a bit further \Nand get really engaged
Dialogue: 0,1:06:03.00,1:06:05.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like the step, the kind of, \Nthe scale of engagement,
Dialogue: 0,1:06:05.86,1:06:09.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can join us on our mailing list \Ndedicated to the topic data retention,
Dialogue: 0,1:06:09.93,1:06:13.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just by dropping me an email.\NIf you're really into it and
Dialogue: 0,1:06:13.68,1:06:19.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want to contribute actively to the\Nanalysis, to possible future campaigns,
Dialogue: 0,1:06:19.10,1:06:25.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or any kind of advocacy actions, \Nwe're organizing at EU level.
Dialogue: 0,1:06:25.32,1:06:28.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then… That's for kind of the…
Dialogue: 0,1:06:28.30,1:06:31.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think I didn't forget anything \Nyou can do as viewers.
Dialogue: 0,1:06:31.78,1:06:37.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In general, what we're looking for, we'll \Ntry to push the Commission. It's…
Dialogue: 0,1:06:37.04,1:06:40.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think it's a dead wish, but \NI will mention it nonetheless.
Dialogue: 0,1:06:40.68,1:06:45.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We would like the Commission to do, \Nto launch infringement procedures
Dialogue: 0,1:06:45.58,1:06:51.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against countries that do not\Ncomply with the CJEU ruling.
Dialogue: 0,1:06:51.59,1:06:56.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As I said, it's a dead wish, \Nbecause this is a highly political topic.
Dialogue: 0,1:06:56.04,1:07:02.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Commission has stated multiple\Ntimes in public that it won't do this.
Dialogue: 0,1:07:02.40,1:07:06.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're not interested in doing this.\NThey're interested in being in a
Dialogue: 0,1:07:06.40,1:07:11.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cooperative state of mind or spirit of\Ncollaboration with member states to find
Dialogue: 0,1:07:11.76,1:07:15.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,solutions. Another word for saying, we\Nwill ignore what the ruling, what the
Dialogue: 0,1:07:15.68,1:07:20.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ruling says and try to find solutions\Nthat can work out and that avoids like
Dialogue: 0,1:07:20.79,1:07:26.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the painful and embarrassing situation of\Nhaving a future EU legal instrument being
Dialogue: 0,1:07:26.96,1:07:32.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,struck down by their own courts. But yeah.\NThis is to be seen. We'll work together
Dialogue: 0,1:07:32.16,1:07:35.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with Jesper. I don't know if you have\Nanything to add, Jesper, to that.
Dialogue: 0,1:07:35.09,1:07:39.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If I forgot something.
Dialogue: 0,1:07:39.14,1:07:42.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lund: No, I think… \NSo even monitoring the situation
Dialogue: 0,1:07:42.76,1:07:49.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in 27 member states is a huge task, \Nand we definitely need help on this.
Dialogue: 0,1:07:49.46,1:07:52.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Denmark is well covered, but
Dialogue: 0,1:07:52.70,1:08:00.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is also Sweden…
Dialogue: 0,1:08:00.35,1:08:04.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Many, many different member states.
Dialogue: 0,1:08:04.24,1:08:10.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mostly you have governments \Nthat like data retention and either
Dialogue: 0,1:08:10.21,1:08:14.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,try to just ignore the Court of Justice\Nor, as Denmark is doing, make
Dialogue: 0,1:08:14.22,1:08:18.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,adjustments to the national law that are\Nnot real adjustments, but just try to
Dialogue: 0,1:08:18.70,1:08:24.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maintain what is already in place\Nunder the guise of adjusting to the Court
Dialogue: 0,1:08:24.40,1:08:28.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of Justice. Or, we have talked about\NFrance, Denmark, Belgium as cases
Dialogue: 0,1:08:28.89,1:08:33.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that really try to circumvent \Nthe case law. So keeping…
Dialogue: 0,1:08:33.33,1:08:36.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One definite risk here is that \Ndata retention will be forgotten.
Dialogue: 0,1:08:36.85,1:08:39.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is what member states want, \Nso that nobody talks about it.
Dialogue: 0,1:08:39.76,1:08:45.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we need to, yeah,\Nwe need to keep the public debate going
Dialogue: 0,1:08:45.50,1:08:46.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and make sure that…
Dialogue: 0,1:08:46.60,1:08:50.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contact journalists, make sure that \Nthey write about data retention.
Dialogue: 0,1:08:50.52,1:08:57.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And also, I think focus on the rule of law\Nproblem that is associated with this area,
Dialogue: 0,1:08:57.02,1:09:00.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it's really not \Na sustainable situation that
Dialogue: 0,1:09:00.64,1:09:04.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all member states are \Nignoring fundamental rights.
Dialogue: 0,1:09:08.56,1:09:16.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ebelt: In the end, everything sounds also\Na little bit promising. And at least,
Dialogue: 0,1:09:16.80,1:09:21.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's not forget this is about, it's about\Nthe citizens, it's about the people,
Dialogue: 0,1:09:21.52,1:09:27.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's about their data, it's about their\Ngovernments, it's about their freedoms.
Dialogue: 0,1:09:27.41,1:09:33.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do you have or do you \Nwould like to add something?
Dialogue: 0,1:09:33.72,1:09:37.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, here as the speakers?
Dialogue: 0,1:09:37.36,1:09:43.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If not… \NYou still have time to interrupt me.
Dialogue: 0,1:09:43.11,1:09:47.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We can have… \NI would hand over to Walter, and
Dialogue: 0,1:09:47.14,1:09:52.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we can we just go into \Nthe Q&A part of the talk.
Dialogue: 0,1:09:52.29,1:09:57.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I would thank everybody too,\Nfor joining this talk.
Dialogue: 0,1:09:57.80,1:10:03.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Also, thank you to the speakers. \NIt's been really, really interesting.
Dialogue: 0,1:10:03.03,1:10:07.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And to everybody who liked the \Ntalk you can recommend it, and
Dialogue: 0,1:10:07.79,1:10:13.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can get the audio and video \Nto download on media.ccc.de
Dialogue: 0,1:10:13.82,1:10:15.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And of course,
Dialogue: 0,1:10:15.22,1:10:22.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Join the discussion on data retention \Nby using the hashtag #dataretention
Dialogue: 0,1:10:22.04,1:10:25.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or the hashtag that is \Nused in your language.
Dialogue: 0,1:10:25.37,1:10:29.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So Walter…
Dialogue: 0,1:10:29.34,1:10:33.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Before we go into the questions\Nthat have we already have collected
Dialogue: 0,1:10:33.60,1:10:37.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through Mastodon, IRC, Matrix, and Twitter
Dialogue: 0,1:10:37.58,1:10:43.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,TJ wanted to add something earlier on \Nwhile Chloé was still talking, I remember.
Dialogue: 0,1:10:43.85,1:10:46.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,McIntyre: Thanks Walter, Chloé's
Dialogue: 0,1:10:46.13,1:10:51.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,points reminded me\Nof something that I was very impressed
Dialogue: 0,1:10:51.12,1:10:57.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with from the German campaign against data\Nretention, which was the great use of
Dialogue: 0,1:10:57.04,1:11:02.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,civil societies – the groups representing\Njournalists, lawyers, medical
Dialogue: 0,1:11:02.80,1:11:06.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,professionals, and so on – to make the\Npoint that communications confidentiality
Dialogue: 0,1:11:06.64,1:11:10.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is important for them, too. And that's\Nsomething I have to admit that we didn't
Dialogue: 0,1:11:10.96,1:11:16.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do to the same extent in Ireland, but it's\Ncertainly something we've tried to do. And
Dialogue: 0,1:11:16.80,1:11:21.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the extent that anybody listening to\Nthis now is from a group where they have a
Dialogue: 0,1:11:21.92,1:11:25.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,professional interest in communications\Nconfidentiality, I think it's a good thing
Dialogue: 0,1:11:25.60,1:11:30.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you can work through your group to try\Nto develop that. It might be that you're
Dialogue: 0,1:11:30.32,1:11:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in an area such as technical security. It\Nmight be that you're in an area such as
Dialogue: 0,1:11:35.60,1:11:39.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the legal profession or in the medical\Nprofession or the like. But if you, as a
Dialogue: 0,1:11:39.92,1:11:46.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,professional, have a special interest in\Ncommunications confidentiality, then it
Dialogue: 0,1:11:46.40,1:11:50.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would be a good idea to not just go to\Nyour local digital rights group, but also
Dialogue: 0,1:11:50.32,1:11:53.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,see if you can take this up through\Nyour own professional body.
Dialogue: 0,1:11:55.33,1:11:59.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: OK, thank you.
Dialogue: 0,1:11:59.19,1:12:03.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Since I am the moderator for the \NQ&A questions, then I also sort of
Dialogue: 0,1:12:03.23,1:12:07.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,get to rephrase the questions\Nas passed on through me for the internet.
Dialogue: 0,1:12:07.28,1:12:12.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the most recent question, but I think\Nalso the most fascinating question is,
Dialogue: 0,1:12:12.48,1:12:17.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Someone is asking to what extent\Nthe Gaia-X program and the Palantir
Dialogue: 0,1:12:17.20,1:12:20.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collaborations in the EU tied to this, and\Nwhat can be done to stop this?
Dialogue: 0,1:12:20.53,1:12:22.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For those who are unfamiliar with Gaia-X,
Dialogue: 0,1:12:22.93,1:12:30.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's an initiative to create a European-\Nbased, Europe-based cloud service.
Dialogue: 0,1:12:30.67,1:12:34.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it should be mentioned that \Nall sorts of American tech companies
Dialogue: 0,1:12:34.65,1:12:39.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are also participants in that, so the \NEuropean nature of that could be disputed.
Dialogue: 0,1:12:39.03,1:12:41.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But to get back to the question…
Dialogue: 0,1:12:41.81,1:12:46.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How does Gaia-X and Palantir \Nmay or may not tie into this?
Dialogue: 0,1:12:46.34,1:12:49.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that might be \Na question for Patrick.
Dialogue: 0,1:12:55.56,1:13:00.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Breyer: I'm afraid I don't know \Nenough to to answer it, Walter.
Dialogue: 0,1:13:00.95,1:13:06.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Palantir has their hands, \Nof course, in managing databases.
Dialogue: 0,1:13:06.54,1:13:14.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they will also offer products to\Npolice that will integrate data retention.
Dialogue: 0,1:13:14.79,1:13:20.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And of course, the impact of\Ncommunications data grows potentially with
Dialogue: 0,1:13:20.73,1:13:28.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the capacities to analyze this data. It\Nhas long been established that, you know,
Dialogue: 0,1:13:28.16,1:13:35.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the idea that listening in to phone\Ncalls was more sensitive than
Dialogue: 0,1:13:35.28,1:13:42.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,only knowing that the call details is \Nwrong nowadays, because you can use the
Dialogue: 0,1:13:42.17,1:13:47.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the bulk of data that has been \Ncollected over weeks and months
Dialogue: 0,1:13:47.73,1:13:53.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to paint a picture of persons, and their\Nnetworks, and their movements,
Dialogue: 0,1:13:53.49,1:14:01.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and their personalities. That is actually \Nmuch, much more intrusive and
Dialogue: 0,1:14:01.25,1:14:07.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,much more sensitive than what you can tell\Nfrom just listening to to phone calls.
Dialogue: 0,1:14:07.36,1:14:15.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And yes, I think companies such as Palantir\Nare taking this to to very great length
Dialogue: 0,1:14:15.09,1:14:22.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the products they are offering. And \Ncertainly it's a commercial incentive.
Dialogue: 0,1:14:22.03,1:14:28.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mass surveillance is big business, and \Nwe need to be very aware of this.
Dialogue: 0,1:14:28.56,1:14:30.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: OK, I will also ask Jesper this,
Dialogue: 0,1:14:30.70,1:14:33.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because he may have some \Nthoughts on this as well. Jesper?
Dialogue: 0,1:14:33.98,1:14:38.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lund: Yeah, I think another worrying \Ndevelopment we are seeing
Dialogue: 0,1:14:38.61,1:14:42.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is with the amendment \Nto the European regulation,
Dialogue: 0,1:14:42.96,1:14:51.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which to a large extent is about allowing\Nbig data analysis and, in fact, legalizing
Dialogue: 0,1:14:51.76,1:15:00.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,practices that are currently illegal. I\Ncould easily imagine that, so, police
Dialogue: 0,1:15:00.16,1:15:04.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,authorities will not have access to the\Nsort of complete data sets that are
Dialogue: 0,1:15:04.00,1:15:07.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retained by the telecommunications\Nproviders. But whenever they have a
Dialogue: 0,1:15:07.28,1:15:12.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,criminal investigation and get access to\Nsome data, there's a risk that it would be
Dialogue: 0,1:15:12.80,1:15:19.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stored in the database and used for other\Npurposes. I could easily see that systems
Dialogue: 0,1:15:19.84,1:15:26.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from Palantir could be used\Nfor analyzing such data, that it could be
Dialogue: 0,1:15:26.88,1:15:34.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,disclosed to Europol and possibly analyzed\Nby Europol using perhaps Palantir's
Dialogue: 0,1:15:34.88,1:15:40.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,software as well. So. Even though the\Nconnection to Palantir and Gaia-X is a bit
Dialogue: 0,1:15:40.48,1:15:47.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,speculative, it certainly fits the picture\Nof more big data analysis for the police.
Dialogue: 0,1:15:50.24,1:15:53.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Chloé, you want to \Nadd something to that?
Dialogue: 0,1:15:53.19,1:15:56.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Berthélémy: Just a quick remark on the…
Dialogue: 0,1:15:56.43,1:16:05.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's not linked to Palantir directly or \NGaia-X, but like this is also part of the
Dialogue: 0,1:16:05.07,1:16:12.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,French law that was actually \Nbrought down by the Court of Justice.
Dialogue: 0,1:16:12.58,1:16:17.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like one part, was also like about \Nblack boxes used by intelligence services
Dialogue: 0,1:16:17.61,1:16:20.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not police authorities, \Nnot law enforcement authorities,
Dialogue: 0,1:16:20.55,1:16:25.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but intelligence services. And the \Nnew "Loi Renseignement 2", so like
Dialogue: 0,1:16:25.12,1:16:33.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the revival or the reform of the former\Nlaw that was adopted this year that I've
Dialogue: 0,1:16:33.04,1:16:40.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mentioned before, also contains this kind\Nof algorithmic based, big data analysis of
Dialogue: 0,1:16:40.40,1:16:49.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,metadata, of communications data. And this\Nis even further expanded in the new law by
Dialogue: 0,1:16:49.20,1:16:58.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,including URL's. So also an analysis of\Ninternet network, and how websites
Dialogue: 0,1:16:58.56,1:17:04.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are being visited, and which ones and by\Nwhom in general. And all of this will be
Dialogue: 0,1:17:04.16,1:17:10.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,done now from the premises of like the\Nphysical premises of the intelligence
Dialogue: 0,1:17:10.24,1:17:17.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,services in France, and no longer at the\Npremises of the service providers.
Dialogue: 0,1:17:17.04,1:17:22.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it's kind of a huge shift, where like\Nintelligence services are getting the copy
Dialogue: 0,1:17:22.00,1:17:28.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of metadata on the basis of a judge's\Ndecision. But basically everything is
Dialogue: 0,1:17:28.65,1:17:32.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,copied, and then they're like \Napplying an algorithmic analysis to it.
Dialogue: 0,1:17:32.07,1:17:37.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Something that is obviously \Nnot known by the public.
Dialogue: 0,1:17:37.74,1:17:40.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This isn't in the sense, it's…
Dialogue: 0,1:17:40.24,1:17:42.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It follows the same trend.
Dialogue: 0,1:17:42.69,1:17:47.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: OK, thank you. \NAnother question from the audience is…
Dialogue: 0,1:17:47.36,1:17:51.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think I'm going to give that \None to TJ, because this may
Dialogue: 0,1:17:51.76,1:17:55.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also require a expansion into other\Nfundamental rights or a broader set of
Dialogue: 0,1:17:55.60,1:18:00.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fundamental rights – someone is wondering\Nwhat is actually so bad about a general
Dialogue: 0,1:18:00.24,1:18:06.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data retention for just IP addresses, for\Njust severe crimes? TJ.
Dialogue: 0,1:18:06.72,1:18:10.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,McIntyre: Well, that's a very good\Nquestion. So first of all, what do we mean
Dialogue: 0,1:18:10.56,1:18:15.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by "just serious crimes"? In Ireland, a\N"serious crime" includes stealing a Mars
Dialogue: 0,1:18:15.44,1:18:19.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bar from your local shop or a sweet of\Nyour choice from your local shop, because
Dialogue: 0,1:18:19.92,1:18:24.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that theoretically carries a possible\Nseven year prison sentence. And in fact,
Dialogue: 0,1:18:24.96,1:18:29.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Irish police have been using this so-\Ncalled serious crime provision to
Dialogue: 0,1:18:29.60,1:18:34.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,investigate things like theft of a mobile\Nphone from a locker and theft of 100 €
Dialogue: 0,1:18:34.96,1:18:42.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from an ATM machine. So first of all, the\Nproblem here is that scope creep is a
Dialogue: 0,1:18:42.48,1:18:45.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thing. And even if you describe something\Nas being limited to serious crime, it's no
Dialogue: 0,1:18:45.84,1:18:49.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,guarantee that what you think of a serious\Ncrime and what it will be used for are in
Dialogue: 0,1:18:49.12,1:18:55.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fact the same things. The second is that\Nregistration of any sort is a gateway to
Dialogue: 0,1:18:55.60,1:19:01.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,registration of everything. The kinds \Nof registration we see talked about
Dialogue: 0,1:19:01.60,1:19:06.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Jesper mentioned already, and Patrick \Nhas fought against in different contexts;
Dialogue: 0,1:19:06.25,1:19:12.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,registration of SIM cards, for example,\Ngenerally require identity verification of
Dialogue: 0,1:19:12.64,1:19:18.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some sort. And that, in turn, is a real\Nthreat then to the people who rely on
Dialogue: 0,1:19:18.24,1:19:21.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,confidentiality – the whistleblowers who\Nwant to get information about what
Dialogue: 0,1:19:21.84,1:19:26.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,government is doing out to you, the people\Nwho want to talk to their doctors or their
Dialogue: 0,1:19:26.08,1:19:31.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,support helplines in confidence – and that\Nis a threat to them. But I think Patrick
Dialogue: 0,1:19:31.68,1:19:34.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably is better placed to\Ndiscuss those points than I am,
Dialogue: 0,1:19:34.04,1:19:37.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so perhaps I'll just hand over to him.
Dialogue: 0,1:19:38.44,1:19:41.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Breyer: Just to add to what TJ said
Dialogue: 0,1:19:41.38,1:19:48.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about IP addresses specifically… On the \Ninternet, the major providers of services
Dialogue: 0,1:19:48.04,1:19:54.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will log your every click and search term\Nthat you enter and keep that data for
Dialogue: 0,1:19:54.14,1:19:59.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,months. And so basically, if you know a\Nperson's IP addresses, it's easy to
Dialogue: 0,1:19:59.11,1:20:07.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,request from Google all the search terms\Nthat they entered. Or if somebody is
Dialogue: 0,1:20:07.32,1:20:12.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,publishing anonymously using a Twitter\Naccount, or they think it's anonymously,
Dialogue: 0,1:20:12.58,1:20:18.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then you'll ask for the IP address.\NAnd you can establish, you can lift the
Dialogue: 0,1:20:18.40,1:20:27.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anonymity of that whole account. And\Nthat's why IP addresses or being able to
Dialogue: 0,1:20:27.24,1:20:32.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trace IP addresses really means that you\Ncan follow whatever a person has done on
Dialogue: 0,1:20:32.52,1:20:40.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the internet. And you can even determine\Ntheir location because IP address tells
Dialogue: 0,1:20:40.02,1:20:46.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about your movements more or less,\Nroughly. Whether you're at home or at work
Dialogue: 0,1:20:46.52,1:20:53.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can be determined, according to research.\NAnd it's very telling, it's not true that
Dialogue: 0,1:20:53.31,1:21:01.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's somehow less sensitive. You know,\Nif you call somebody and
Dialogue: 0,1:21:01.22,1:21:08.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,suppress your phone number, you can't you\Nwouldn't be allowed to retain data on this.
Dialogue: 0,1:21:08.18,1:21:13.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But if you use digital services\Nto send an email, you'll have the
Dialogue: 0,1:21:13.25,1:21:17.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,IP address in the header. If you use\Nmessaging services, they will be logging
Dialogue: 0,1:21:17.88,1:21:27.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your IP address. So very similar things as\Nmaking phone calls will be able to be
Dialogue: 0,1:21:27.57,1:21:31.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,retained indiscriminately \Nand be tracing the IP address.
Dialogue: 0,1:21:34.65,1:21:39.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: OK, I have a very specific question \Nabout Chloé's bit in the presentation
Dialogue: 0,1:21:39.86,1:21:42.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}unintelligible{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,1:21:42.61,1:21:45.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I didn't quite get what \Nthe Socialist Party did block
Dialogue: 0,1:21:45.94,1:21:48.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and how, and what happened there.
Dialogue: 0,1:21:49.46,1:21:52.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Berthélémy: Sure. That went very by fast.
Dialogue: 0,1:21:52.03,1:21:55.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's not just the socialists, obviously,\NI forgot to mention that the right parties
Dialogue: 0,1:21:55.99,1:22:00.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,had the big role to play there.\NBasically, there is like a procedure in
Dialogue: 0,1:22:00.94,1:22:06.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,France every time, like a legislation is\Nadopted by the parliament, so both
Dialogue: 0,1:22:06.57,1:22:12.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the French National Assembly and the\NSenate. There is a possibility there's
Dialogue: 0,1:22:12.81,1:22:20.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this rule where either 60 senators or 60\NMP's, members of National Assembly can
Dialogue: 0,1:22:20.03,1:22:25.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just vote in favor of submitting the bill,\Nbefore it is adopted and officially
Dialogue: 0,1:22:25.82,1:22:31.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,published in the official journal and can\Ncome into force, there is this possibility
Dialogue: 0,1:22:31.74,1:22:36.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of submitting it to the Constitutional\NCouncil. So the Constitutional Council in
Dialogue: 0,1:22:36.85,1:22:41.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,France is composed of nine members.\NThey're not elected, there are designated.
Dialogue: 0,1:22:41.49,1:22:47.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it's not the best kind of democratic\Ncounter-power you can imagine. But this is
Dialogue: 0,1:22:47.88,1:22:52.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,still there, and has been proven effective\Nin the past years, especially since the
Dialogue: 0,1:22:52.51,1:22:59.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,presidency of Macron. To, a little bit,\Nhold responsible what the government is
Dialogue: 0,1:22:59.21,1:23:06.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proposing and has annulled or prevented\Nsome provision in several security laws to
Dialogue: 0,1:23:06.37,1:23:13.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pass and to come into effect. And so for\Nthe second, the "Loi Renseignement 2",
Dialogue: 0,1:23:13.13,1:23:17.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so like the reform of the intelligence\Nservice law that contains the provision
Dialogue: 0,1:23:17.83,1:23:22.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the data retention, so when this\Nreform was finally like adopted by both
Dialogue: 0,1:23:22.30,1:23:28.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Senate and the National Assembly,\Nthere wasn't the majority. There wasn't
Dialogue: 0,1:23:28.55,1:23:33.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enough majority to send the text in\Nfront of the Constitutional Court, or at
Dialogue: 0,1:23:33.79,1:23:39.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,least not on the provision related to data\Nretention. And some other provision
Dialogue: 0,1:23:39.26,1:23:45.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contained in the bill were sent to the\NConstitutional Council. And the reason why
Dialogue: 0,1:23:45.01,1:23:49.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data retention wasn't included is because\Nthe socialists didn't support it, this
Dialogue: 0,1:23:49.36,1:23:53.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,submission, this reference to the\NConstitutional Council. So not just the
Dialogue: 0,1:23:53.02,1:23:57.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,socialists' fault. It's also I just said\Nthe right parties and the party in power,
Dialogue: 0,1:23:57.37,1:24:04.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so the La République en marche. But I\Nthink one assumption that we can make
Dialogue: 0,1:24:04.98,1:24:09.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this is not like verified information,\Nbut this is one assumption we can make
Dialogue: 0,1:24:09.59,1:24:16.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that the reason why the socialists\Ndidn't support it, the submission to
Dialogue: 0,1:24:16.32,1:24:20.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,another scrutiny or constitutional\Nscrutiny, is because they were the ones
Dialogue: 0,1:24:20.80,1:24:26.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,introducing those measures in 2015 when\Nthey were in power under François Hollande
Dialogue: 0,1:24:31.63,1:24:35.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: I've been told by the translators\Nthat we really have to wrap it up.
Dialogue: 0,1:24:35.52,1:24:39.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I probably will be asking the last\Nquestion, depending on the length of
Dialogue: 0,1:24:39.47,1:24:43.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the answer, maybe another question.\NAnd I'm going to ask them to Friedemann,
Dialogue: 0,1:24:43.30,1:24:46.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because he hasn't been \Ntalking much during the Q&A.
Dialogue: 0,1:24:46.85,1:24:53.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of the questions is, and that was by\Na viewer, who understood the
Dialogue: 0,1:24:53.05,1:24:58.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,explanations about the Court of Justice\Nas potentially being willing to revise the
Dialogue: 0,1:24:58.51,1:25:04.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,earlier jurisprudence on data retention\Nwhich I understood quite differently,
Dialogue: 0,1:25:04.92,1:25:07.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so maybe you could explain it as well.\NBut the question is…
Dialogue: 0,1:25:07.58,1:25:11.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In case the Court of Justice of the \NEuropean Union were to revisit its
Dialogue: 0,1:25:11.13,1:25:17.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,earlier opinions and weakens its stance,\Nwhat will be possible to do against that?
Dialogue: 0,1:25:17.08,1:25:22.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ebelt: Well, to be honest, I would love\Nto pass this question on to the speakers,
Dialogue: 0,1:25:22.32,1:25:27.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,since I'm not actually a speaker of this\Ntalk, and just the host and moderator.
Dialogue: 0,1:25:27.80,1:25:33.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So would somebody of the speakers \Ntake the question?
Dialogue: 0,1:25:33.37,1:25:37.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Then I suggest Chloé does it.
Dialogue: 0,1:25:37.21,1:25:42.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Berthélémy: Oh, wow, what a nice gift.\NCan I pass the ball to Jesper? {\i1}laughs{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,1:25:42.81,1:25:49.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't know what can be done as a citizen\Ncounter the Court of Justice's future rulings.
Dialogue: 0,1:25:49.55,1:25:55.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One thing that Patrick mentioned,\Nfor example, is the influence of several
Dialogue: 0,1:25:55.70,1:26:00.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interventions during hearings in front \Nof the courts. And notably, when the
Dialogue: 0,1:26:00.81,1:26:06.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European data protection supervisor is\Nkind of weakening what the court has said
Dialogue: 0,1:26:06.38,1:26:12.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,previously and said that access is more\Nimportant than the mere retention of data,
Dialogue: 0,1:26:12.85,1:26:18.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's problematic. Even though it didn't \Nimpact it this time too much,
Dialogue: 0,1:26:18.89,1:26:22.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is a risk that this \Nkind of narratives build up
Dialogue: 0,1:26:22.66,1:26:28.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and becomes like very\Ninfluential in the judges' ears.
Dialogue: 0,1:26:28.32,1:26:33.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this is something to be avoided.\NBut Jesper, please complete, because
Dialogue: 0,1:26:33.95,1:26:41.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm probably far from the \Ncomprehensive answers to this question.
Dialogue: 0,1:26:42.87,1:26:50.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lund: In the hypothetical situation that\Nthe court would revise its position and
Dialogue: 0,1:26:50.08,1:26:55.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,say, allow general and indiscriminate data\Nretention, not just for national security
Dialogue: 0,1:26:55.12,1:27:01.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in extraordinary circumstances, but for\Ncombating serious crime in general.
Dialogue: 0,1:27:01.97,1:27:04.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That would put us back \Nto sort of square one,
Dialogue: 0,1:27:04.57,1:27:07.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before the…
Dialogue: 0,1:27:07.94,1:27:11.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when the campaign against \Ndata retention started. And,
Dialogue: 0,1:27:11.32,1:27:15.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then we can no longer say that\Nit's against fundamental rights.
Dialogue: 0,1:27:15.42,1:27:17.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it's still a bad idea.
Dialogue: 0,1:27:17.47,1:27:19.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It still has problems for vulnerable groups,
Dialogue: 0,1:27:19.65,1:27:26.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,persons with professional privileges,\Nand so forth.
Dialogue: 0,1:27:26.28,1:27:30.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So in that situation, ideally, we want\Nto convince our parliamentarians
Dialogue: 0,1:27:30.83,1:27:36.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at a national level that it's a bad idea. \NAnd if that is not possible, at least make
Dialogue: 0,1:27:36.31,1:27:42.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,exceptions so that these groups with \Nprofessional privileges are not included
Dialogue: 0,1:27:42.30,1:27:45.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in data retention. \NIt may be possible.
Dialogue: 0,1:27:45.34,1:27:50.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Germany has, in its current data retention\Nlaw, has some provisions on where
Dialogue: 0,1:27:50.32,1:27:56.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,certain phone numbers of help groups,\Nhelp phone lines are excluded.
Dialogue: 0,1:27:56.89,1:28:03.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And also make sure that access to this\Ndata is subject to prior court review.
Dialogue: 0,1:28:03.07,1:28:06.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is not the case in all member states.
Dialogue: 0,1:28:06.03,1:28:10.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that access is exceptional, also.
Dialogue: 0,1:28:10.30,1:28:14.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so these are the options remaining
Dialogue: 0,1:28:14.81,1:28:18.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,should the Court of Justice\Nrevise its position, which…
Dialogue: 0,1:28:18.26,1:28:22.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would consider unlikely at this stage,\Nand certainly the advocate general is in
Dialogue: 0,1:28:22.85,1:28:30.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}audio breaking up{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,1:28:30.22,1:28:36.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,…the three cases pending is not suggesting\Nthis at all. Rather the contrary.
Dialogue: 0,1:28:36.86,1:28:41.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: OK, thank you. \NAnd we have run out…
Dialogue: 0,1:28:41.03,1:28:45.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,oh, and also for those who want to\Nlook up the website, it's edri.org
Dialogue: 0,1:28:45.100,1:28:48.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that contains the map Chloé mentioned.
Dialogue: 0,1:28:48.77,1:28:52.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But again, thank you all. \NAnd this is it for the session.
Dialogue: 0,1:28:52.29,1:28:55.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Take care. Bye bye.
Dialogue: 0,1:28:55.13,1:28:58.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1} rC3 2021 Chaos-West TV postroll music {\i0}
Dialogue: 0,1:28:58.54,1:29:18.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de\Nin the year 2021. Join, and help us!