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Herald: Welcome back on the Chaos-Sound
stage. I hope you had a great day so far.
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And after the Algorave talk, we are happy
to we're happy to host a talk by Andy
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Mueller-Maguhn. He is a long-time member
of the CCC. Now he is at Wau Holland
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Stiftung, and he's also a data journalist.
And today he will tell us a bit about
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things between WikiLeaks and the CIA. And
this talk is some kind of successor for
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talks he gave previously. And but for all
the details, he will tell them by himself.
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And yes, welcome Andy. And we're happy to
see what you can tell us. And all the
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interesting details that are in your talk.
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Andy: Thank you. OK. Good evening. So, I
named this talk "When WikiLeaks bumped
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into the CIA operation Kudo exposed". So,
explain a bit later what that is. Just as
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a reminder, the hacker community and the
CCC, even in its bylaws, one of the core
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things has always been information wants
to be free. First sentence up the hacker
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ethics brought a small snippet from Wau
himself where you will not hear the sound
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at this moment due to technical reasons,
but where he talked about the hacking of
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society through Freedom of Information. My
talk will have two parts, what happened so
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far and what should be done now. In the
first part. I just want to refer a little
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bit on the context of what I'm talking
about. So, this is about what happened
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surrounding WikiLeaks in the context of
the CIA and the United States government.
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Yeah, getting on them. I had two talks
about similar topics already in 2018 and
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2019 at the ..., you know, unfortunately
also. No, that was still the last real
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Congress. I talked about the technical
aspects of the surveillance. And you will
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see one image that I needed to copy from
that again. Then last year, I talked a
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little bit about the CIA versus WikiLeaks
to intimidation tactics. That was more
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what happened to me and other surrounding
WikiLeaks. Now, in the meantime, this
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year, end of September, came a very
important article in this context on Yahoo
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News, that seems to have been doing that.
Some guys have been hired there, who
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previously worked for Newsweek and others.
The article, from 26 of September, is
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called Kidnapping, Assassination at the
London Shootout, inside the Secret CIA
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Secret War Plans against WikiLeaks, and it
did reveal quite some things. It finally
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referred to my talk. It links even to the
video of my talk. It takes some quotes
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from it. It confirms a lot of it and adds
a lot. But it also frames and was framing.
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I mean, there is some disinformation
that's poisoning that otherwise very
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helpful article to understand what the
fuck was going on. So, what I'm trying to
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do today is to reconstruct the whole thing
a little bit to reframe it and help
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everybody to understand a little bit what
happened here. The Yahoo article
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rightfully distinguishes the timeframe of
the interaction, so to say, between the
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United States government and WikiLeaks
into four to five timeframes. One of them
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at the beginning of the WikiLeaks project.
Or, let's say, before Snowden, so before
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mid-2013, the Obama administration
authored the diplomatic cables had been
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published by WikiLeaks, Afghan / Iraq War
Logs and so on were out. They had the view
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that as long as some entity or some people
are publishing, are engaging and
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publishing it in journalistic activity,
there's nothing they can do because First
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Amendment of the United States
Constitution talks about the freedom of
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publishing the freedom of speech, and a
freedom that does include journalistic
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activity of all kinds. After the Snowden,
not revelations, but the fact that Edward
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Snowden was getting from Hong Kong on the
way to somewhere else, but he got to
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Moscow with the help of a WikiLeaks
editorial member, therefore in acting in
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what you could call journalistic source
protection. However, that brought the U.S.
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government to a slightly different view of
WikiLeaks. It didn't really like it, so
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Obama allowed the intelligence community
to prioritize collection WikiLeaks, search
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warrants, subpeonas, US National Security
Letters. So here we're not talking about,
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as far as the article mentions, about the
legal investigation yet. This intelligence
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work to, like they allowed them to get on
them? They also, in the context of the
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Snowden revelations, now, where it wasn't
WikiLeaks, it was Glenn Greenwald and
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Laura Poitras who had been given by Edward
Snowden the material, and they published
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the material together with Guardian, Der
Spiegel, the others. I was also involved
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with the Spiegel I should disclose.
However, they tried to relabel, not only
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WikiLeaks, but also Glenn, Laura and
others from journalists away to like
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information brokers. They tried all kinds
of definitions to circumvent the
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protection of the United States
Constitution, you could say. That went not
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that far. At least I have no actively
knowledge of a criminal prosecution
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running against Laura and Glenn. However,
there were for sure intelligence
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activities that they also reported on that
everybody who was involved in the
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publications, as you might know from
history, the Guardian was later forced to
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even destroy the computers where they had
put this Snowden material and so on. So,
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that was quite some things going on. In
2016, the next, yeah, like milestone in
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the change of the relations between the
United States government, WikiLeaks, to
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say it nicely, was the publication of the
DNC emails that by the definition of the
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National Security Agency, like they said,
this was Guccifer 2.0 was the Russian
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military intelligence at GRU and that the
whole publication was with the intention
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to hurt the interests of the United
States. This now is a first point where we
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could sit back from our European
perspective for a little bit and say, wait
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a moment. This was about leaking. I mean,
this was leaked emails. Or, however, let's
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say it was emails that somehow got leaked,
obtained or otherwise, but in any way,
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WikiLeaks published them. What the
discussion was about was how Hillary
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Clinton had treated Bernie Sanders as the
other candidate of the Democratic Party,
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and here obviously did not make it. She
made it. So, this we could call this
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exposing the facts in the public interest.
But as I said, the United States, at least
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National Security Agency and others seem
to have agreed that this was not intended
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to harm the United States, not what
Hillary Clinton did, but what WikiLeaks
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did in this publication. I think it's
important that we distinguish between how
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we evaluate these things and how the US
government puts this into different
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baskets or categories. However, then it
got much more wild, when WikiLeaks started
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at the beginning of 2017 to publish, with
the so-called full seven series, documents
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from the Central Intelligence Agency from
the CIA. Mike Pompeo was in charge of it.
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I did talk about this at length, and I
want to repeat this last year, so he got
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very upset personally because he was also
potentially personal responsible for it.
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So, It was under his watch, so to say.
However, the framing aspect of the article
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are worth having a brief look. The what
happened this year was so sad that the key
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witness of the prosecution Icelandic guy
called Sigurdor Thordarson made it public
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that actually he lied to the FBI and that
they fabricated part of the evidence based
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on his lies. Also, they could have
verified things. He later even was
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imprisoned for his multiple illegal acts,
and the Icelandic government saw it as
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reason enough to declare him a danger to
society and therefore lock him up. And
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that's not happening that easily in a
country like Iceland who normally people
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are very calm and down to earth. However,
the article came just after, a few weeks
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after, the publications on this fabricated
evidence. And it's fair to say that the
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gravity of the Yahoo article was a lot
higher and a lot more was discussed than
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about the fake evidence of the key witness
and so on. However, one other aspect that
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was in the Yahoo article was a thing that
is, from my reading, and I've talked to
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many people, there was no evidence for
this whatsoever. The Yahoo article claimed
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that there was the Russian government also
having like kind of officers in front of
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the Ecuadorian embassy or in the immediate
surrounding, preparing to help Julian to
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evacuate him, so to say, from England to
sneak him out, as the article says.,
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Russian intel preparing to sneak Assange
out of the UK. And this is a little bit
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wild and it's double wild when you or when
one looks at how the involvement of the
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Russian government, how that upsets
American people, the American media and so
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on. This is such a polarized environment
where the moment the Russian government is
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declared to be involved, it changes
everything. What's happened really here
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with something different and that is that
Julian had, in cooperation and in
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coordination with the Ecuadorian
government, found a way to legally leave
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the embassy and the United Kingdom by
becoming first an Ecuadorian citizen, then
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an Ecuadorian diplomat, and then in theory
he would have been able to leave the UK
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because a diplomat on the way to a
different working place has, under Vienna,
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diplomatic assurances, is immune from any
kind of interference. However, the article
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does reveal some aspects of what happened.
For example, the kidnapping plans, the
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assassination plans that the US government
considered the CIA played through ways to
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kill him in the embassy, to poison him, to
kidnap him from there. This kind of
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extreme acts did not happen, and the
article claims that, you know, justice
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prevailed. White House lawyers had doubts.
The National Security Council and the
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heads of the Senate and House Intelligence
Committees ensured that this wild ideas
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because they were not compatible with the
legal framework, not even with that of the
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United States, that that did not happen.
So, the article gives you kind of this
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American song melody of, yeah, we had some
wild things at the CIA going on, but you
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know, we are a democracy and we stopped
it. However, there were some actions that
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where, according to the article and the
witnesses and lawyers I talked to, well
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caught out, extensive spying on WikiLeaks
associates dealing with electronic
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devices. Then there were things there we
could talk about, like the article claims
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that, to what was also carried out, sowing
discord among the group's members. So now,
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if anyone of you is longer than a few
weeks in a CCC- like hacker club or
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working for a journalist organization or
working in any other group. I mean,
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according to my little experience, there's
quite a fight-club atmosphere out there
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for a while, and I'm personally, I
wouldn't always be able to distinguish
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between is this now a CIA operated, you
know, group fight? Or It's just normal
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group dynamics. People don't like each
other, people having disputes, people
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having different ideas how to do things
and so on. So, I would suggest you take
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this kind of claim with a grain of salt.
Not every dispute among a group has been
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created by the CIA. Also, I'm very
generous on bashing them. However, they
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also talked at some point they changed the
whole context of Julian and WikiLeaks from
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a target of collection to target of
destruction. Well, for sure, some things
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happened there, but this is not what I can
go into detail. So far, no detailed report
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on it. However, the project I talked about
that Julian would get legally out of the
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embassy as a member of Ecuadorian
diplomatic staff is coming together in a
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very it's like the most critical time
frame also, according to the article, and
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that we were able, that we were going
through with the lawyers to log files of
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the embassy security service, the videos
and so on. So, we have been able to
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identify the timeframe and the timeframe
is the 16th of December 2017 until the
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26th. This is the most critical timeframe,
because, around the 16th, he was
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officially not only declared a diplomat,
there was a publication in the Ecuadorean
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like a legal "judge set" or what it's
called. So like the legal publication in
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Ecuador to have him declared. He had,
around the 21st, the head of the
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Ecuadorian intelligence visiting him. So,
that means he also had the diplomatic
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passport. It was fully, formally done.
There was a discussion of the process and
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this meeting on the 21st I had mentioned
it in my talk last year was the most high
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priority conversation that ever happened
in the embassy, at least as far as we know
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from the witnesses of the security service
who later revealed to the court that they
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had been, yeah, instructed on behalf of
the CIA to do other things than to protect
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the embassy, but to spy on Julian. So this
meeting on the 21st was extremely
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important to the Americans, and we do know
roughly that the whole story ended through
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various means, but mainly to pressure on
the on the Ecuadorian government in Quito,
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in Ecuador, around the 26th when they
actually called the plan off because the
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Americans knew about every detail,
including how he would get out of the
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embassy, in what type of car and so on.
And they also then at some point denounced
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his diplomatic status after pressure from
the United States government. And in this
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time frame, I make here a little bit of an
event matrix, which is completely
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incomplete. I have to say this many things
missing for legal, for other reasons. You
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know, some things are just too wild. The
U.S. government, for example, would never
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break into a European law office, right?
We can. That's bullshit. That's conspiracy
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stuff. They don't do these things. They,
of course, comply with the law. However,
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we have some events that are funny and fit
well into our picture, for example, that
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after on the Saturday, the lawyers from
Spain and England were sitting together
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with Julian that two days later, in
preparation of that meeting on the 21st
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came the fire protection service into the
embassy. And those who seen my talk last
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year know that one of the fire
extinguishers placed in the meeting room
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had the main role for holding a bug.
However, I'm coming to that than we have
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this observation that every day in this
time frame, there was a silver gray Ford
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car with sometimes two, sometimes three,
sometimes more people sitting outside the
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embassy, seeming obviously to wait for
instructions. Something to happen. I'm
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coming to that and we have other things
going on at that timeframe, that kind of
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fit into the frame. So on the, ... I
selected three events to talk about them a
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few minutes. The first is this fire
extinguisher. 19:26 Here you see it and in
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on the right picture, you're seeing the
black bottom of the fire extinguisher.
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That's where they had a magnetic little
box with an audio microphone, I mean,
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audio bug in it, that seemed to have not
only recorded, but also transmits the
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conversations, in life, to the American
intelligence outside. Funnily, this, ...
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on the 18th comes a company, not even from
London, the Iceland Fire Protection
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Limited, a guy and goes into all the rooms
in the embassy to check the fire
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extinguishers. Now, according to the
lawyers, there had been intensive
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discussions with the employees, and David
Morales, the owner of U.C. Global, the
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company that was originally hired to
protect the embassy, is known to have
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talked to his people and emailed them,
mentioning that the Americans want also
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that all the other rooms at some point to
be bugged and want access to the fire
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extinguishers. We don't know exactly what
happened in that discussion to the last
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detail, but we know that on the 18th came
this British company. And this is a little
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bit crass, and I think there will be many
other embassies of other countries who
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will be interested to check if they don't
are maybe serviced by the same company.
00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:10.320
Now, the other nice event that I selected
is the night from the 23rd to the 24th.
00:21:10.320 --> 00:21:17.440
So, the very morning, early morning hours
on the 24th of December morning, Christmas
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morning, so to say, where you have the
three guys sitting in the car and on the
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back seat on the right side, someone reads
the briefing notes, I will show you the,
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oops. Don't tell me this. Hopefully it
works. OK, great. The video doesn't work.
00:21:37.520 --> 00:21:44.720
I'm sorry. I can't show you the video
today. Maybe courtesy of the CIA, however.
00:21:45.600 --> 00:21:50.160
So, the guy in the back seat browses
through the briefing notes, and we have
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:58.400
been able to at least read part of what
they have been, ... what this briefing
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notes say. It says this page that we have
been able to read mostly was in the event
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:10.240
of loss of camera coverage. So, there was
a process to be established when the
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:14.800
surveillance cameras in the embassy
wouldn't deliver pictures anymore and the
00:22:14.800 --> 00:22:19.840
guys outside a sitting partly, according
to the article, the British police guys
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with guns, eight people, maybe without
guns, would be ready to jump into the
00:22:27.120 --> 00:22:33.600
scene. Crash diplomatic cars, shoot into
tires of cars that would try to bring
00:22:33.600 --> 00:22:40.000
Julian away, and so on, indicates which
way he would walk out. And so there's a
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:45.520
few key words here that I just want to
emphasize in the event of lots of camera
00:22:45.520 --> 00:22:50.560
coverage standards, then there is talking
about something called GS7 that might be
00:22:50.560 --> 00:22:56.160
code-word for CIA or something different.
MET is clearly the Metropolitan Police.
00:22:57.120 --> 00:23:02.720
That's a normal acronym in England, and
they talk about the context of the
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:09.840
operation Kudo. So we looked up the word
Kudo. Kudo is something saying roughly
00:23:09.840 --> 00:23:18.080
like friendship. So, we have to assume
this was a joint British American
00:23:18.080 --> 00:23:23.280
operation, and that's exactly what the
Yahoo article describes. However, what it
00:23:23.280 --> 00:23:29.920
does not describe is the legal
implication, because this could well be
00:23:30.560 --> 00:23:35.840
one of the most or best well documented
breaches of the Vienna Convention,
00:23:36.560 --> 00:23:43.440
basically saying that the premises of the
mission shall be inviolable, which is,
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:48.960
normally means that you shall not bug, you
shall not, you know, put surveillance
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.280
devices, cameras, hidden cameras or
whatever. You shall not hack into the
00:23:53.280 --> 00:24:00.400
camera surveillance system, of an embassy,
asked to host state and so on and so that
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:04.800
intelligence do it and that the CIA was
doing it. In the case of the Ecuadorian
00:24:04.800 --> 00:24:10.240
embassy, it's already part of a Spanish
lawsuit. However, the dimension is a
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:14.720
little bit different, as the British
police seems to have access have had
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:20.320
access to that video surveillance, and
that is potentially legally different
00:24:20.320 --> 00:24:26.640
thing. That will be subject to some legal
steps going on in the next weeks and
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:37.040
months. The third event I selected for
relaxation issues is on the last day. You
00:24:37.040 --> 00:24:42.400
see here two police officers carrying an
astonishing amount of eight cups of coffee
00:24:43.520 --> 00:24:51.600
for a relatively small police car. That
gives you an idea what was going on there.
00:24:51.600 --> 00:25:00.000
The British police being prepared to set
aside the conference room is about in the
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:06.960
area where there was a trash bag on the
left side is so giving you an idea of how
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:13.760
intense the British police was also on the
scene outside. So, what is currently
00:25:13.760 --> 00:25:19.600
happening with this and a lot of other
material? Is, well, checking the violation
00:25:19.600 --> 00:25:28.080
of the Vienna Convention then parsing
together many of the events and observing
00:25:28.080 --> 00:25:33.840
patterns and trying to see those patterns
at other places. As we, of course, still
00:25:33.840 --> 00:25:37.520
do not know the full scope of the
operations of the CIA and other
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:43.360
intelligence agencies against WikiLeaks.
This is just the tip of the iceberg, what
00:25:43.360 --> 00:25:50.000
happened in London, but also to see where
other journalists were other citizens,
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.960
where other governments, organizations,
whatever were may be targeted with same or
00:25:54.960 --> 00:26:02.400
similar ways and methods. So this brings
me to the second part of my little talk.
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:10.065
The question what needs to be done? So,
and I tried to first invite you to a
00:26:10.065 --> 00:26:18.277
little reflection because, as some of you
might know, Julian Assange presented the
00:26:18.277 --> 00:26:25.342
WikiLeaks project in the CCC Congress, end
of 2009. If I recall correctly, he made
00:26:25.342 --> 00:26:32.080
another talk in 2010. This was very much a
project of the hacker community and it was
00:26:32.080 --> 00:26:37.288
highly welcomed at the time because it was
like combining the idea of Freedom of
00:26:37.288 --> 00:26:42.040
Information, which had always been and
sharing information which had always been
00:26:42.040 --> 00:26:48.555
the spirit of the hacker scene with those
of journalists and democratic, yeah, think
00:26:48.555 --> 00:26:54.729
tanks to ensure that we would have
actually an informed society, not just
00:26:54.729 --> 00:27:00.257
this very weird concept of an information
society which does not really say anything
00:27:00.257 --> 00:27:05.080
between the relationship between
information and society. But an informed
00:27:05.080 --> 00:27:10.000
society is a clear picture, I think. And
therefore, the better wording. So, the
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.370
other question is, of course, is what?
What does this whole thing? This what we
00:27:14.370 --> 00:27:20.601
have been reading in the article and what
we're now a step by step here revealing
00:27:20.601 --> 00:27:26.297
and starting to understand. What does it
tell us about the United States
00:27:26.297 --> 00:27:34.132
government's prosecution, of DOJ, Pompeo,
the CIA, all these people? How (competent)
00:27:34.132 --> 00:27:41.768
are they really to decide to society that
is based on an informed electorate, like
00:27:41.768 --> 00:27:48.084
the people making decisions based on
knowledge and voting based on knowing
00:27:48.084 --> 00:27:54.127
what's going on? And that's slightly
disturbing, I think what we what this
00:27:54.127 --> 00:28:01.772
thought brings us to. So, here's my little
ideas, and then I will just come with some
00:28:01.772 --> 00:28:09.159
questions to the audience. So, yeah, what
can we do and what maybe should we do?
00:28:09.159 --> 00:28:14.345
This is, here, just some ideas of mine.
While we could, of course, hope that the
00:28:14.345 --> 00:28:19.551
United States, the people of the United
States, the government of the United
00:28:19.551 --> 00:28:25.840
States would understand that core
democratic value was attacked here when
00:28:25.840 --> 00:28:34.194
going against Assange, WikiLeaks and so
on. So in theory, we should, we could hope
00:28:34.194 --> 00:28:41.664
that the self-healing or the self
understanding and mechanisms of the United
00:28:41.664 --> 00:28:47.480
States society will stop this madness
because they will see, Hey, wait a moment,
00:28:47.480 --> 00:28:53.834
this is our constitutional First Amendment
that we are attacking here indirectly. And
00:28:53.834 --> 00:28:59.711
if we don't have like the publishers,
right, journalists and publishers right to
00:28:59.711 --> 00:29:06.632
inform the public, then we have nothing.
Well, the second, obviously, level would
00:29:06.632 --> 00:29:15.520
be to dissolve the CIA. Yeah, I mean,
Kennedy had this idea before, shatter it
00:29:15.520 --> 00:29:23.336
and the wind and so on. But I don't know
how at least this shall continue with that
00:29:23.336 --> 00:29:30.553
budget, with the information operations,
with the influence operations, where
00:29:30.553 --> 00:29:37.480
actually "wag the dog" is just a tiny
little aspect of it. Because the question
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:43.368
is how shall a democratic government work
as long as there's an intelligence agency
00:29:43.368 --> 00:29:48.420
that has all the knowledge about every
person involved in all the little
00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:54.454
compromat boxes and the aspect of how to
nudge and how to influence and how to
00:29:54.454 --> 00:30:00.091
manipulate and so on? Well, and then the
third aspect outside the United States,
00:30:00.091 --> 00:30:05.775
here in Europe, is of course, the question
of how can we immunize those people,
00:30:05.775 --> 00:30:11.194
entities governmental organization and so
on where it still seems possible to
00:30:11.194 --> 00:30:17.208
understand that this is core, that
journalism and the right to inform the
00:30:17.208 --> 00:30:23.264
public by making also information and
material public that governments,
00:30:23.264 --> 00:30:29.259
corporations or whoever would like to keep
secret? But if that documents are playing
00:30:29.259 --> 00:30:35.238
a role in informing the public in the
public interest and it must be allowed to
00:30:35.238 --> 00:30:42.476
make it public, and that was what's called
the Fourth Estate or the right of the
00:30:42.476 --> 00:30:49.084
press to inform the public. Yeah, how can
we do that? That of course, more a
00:30:49.084 --> 00:30:55.124
question. And and here's my list of
questions that I will want to address to
00:30:55.124 --> 00:31:02.408
the audience. We should have 20 minutes
and maybe a few seconds for a discussion
00:31:02.408 --> 00:31:10.153
of this. So guys, how do we get Assange
out of jail? Ladies and gentlemen, how do
00:31:10.153 --> 00:31:15.120
we do it? How do we stop the
criminalization of journalism and those
00:31:15.120 --> 00:31:20.246
who ensure access to information in the
public? Is this in order to achieve an
00:31:20.246 --> 00:31:26.680
informed society? That's our duty I fear.
How do we ensure a value driven community?
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:34.051
So, as everybody knows, the CCC had always
different factions. The political and the
00:31:34.051 --> 00:31:39.677
technical factions then came at some point
a party, the event and hedonism aspects
00:31:39.677 --> 00:31:46.480
all together. And we had a great fun time.
But I'm not sure that we also took care of
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:52.646
ensuring that we are value driven
community all the way. I mean, when we
00:31:52.646 --> 00:31:59.539
look at this year and the NSA methods
that's obviously some kind of atmosphere
00:31:59.539 --> 00:32:05.347
between those who work in the I.T.
security industry and those who maybe then
00:32:05.347 --> 00:32:10.488
take offers from the intelligence
community. And that's not the spirit of
00:32:10.488 --> 00:32:16.560
the hacker ethics, and that's not just the
spirit of the CCC, and that's not the
00:32:16.560 --> 00:32:23.640
spirit of an informed society that people
with money who instrumentalized technology
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:29.805
people and. You don't have to like look at
the CIA as the most crass, may be entity.
00:32:29.805 --> 00:32:36.662
It starts with the so-called Open
Technology Fund. I mean, we had various
00:32:36.662 --> 00:32:43.885
years the ability to observe how the Tor
project had its issues between the two
00:32:43.885 --> 00:32:49.240
worlds of the US government having this
and that ideas and our community having
00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:54.955
other ideas of how anonymization works.
And I'm not sure we can say that our
00:32:54.955 --> 00:33:02.648
values have been preserved and we have
ensured that OTF finance projects do not
00:33:02.648 --> 00:33:09.490
serve just some funny governmental
interest. And when it was relabeled partly
00:33:09.490 --> 00:33:17.177
from internet freedom to circumvention
measures that I think gave already some
00:33:17.177 --> 00:33:24.880
ideas on what could go wrong if, yeah,
governments start to fund projects of the
00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:31.975
so-called hacker scene. Yeah, so, this is
my questions to you guys. How do we get
00:33:31.975 --> 00:33:39.271
him out? How do we ensure our society
stays intact and democratic? And how do
00:33:39.271 --> 00:33:47.087
we, as a scene, avoid to be corrupted by
governmental money and funny interests?
00:33:47.087 --> 00:33:55.325
And I hope the moderation cannot take over
and provide some answers from the
00:33:55.325 --> 00:33:58.784
audience.
00:33:58.784 --> 00:34:07.529
Herald: All right, thank you very much,
Andy, for your talk. Let's see how this
00:34:07.529 --> 00:34:14.515
will work. Thank you, also, for your
questions to the audience.
00:34:14.515 --> 00:34:21.980
Andy: I will try, in the meantime, to fix
this video and make it this one minute, 23
00:34:21.980 --> 00:34:24.185
seconds video.
Herald: All right.
00:34:24.185 --> 00:34:29.884
Andy: I can show it, but maybe you can
start to take the questions.
00:34:29.884 --> 00:34:38.114
Herald: Sure, yeah, and yes, so let's say
to the audience, please put your possible
00:34:38.114 --> 00:34:45.824
answers to Andy's questions in the chat. I
will. I will follow them as good as I can.
00:34:45.824 --> 00:34:51.270
And so that we can have a lively
discussion. I know it might be a little
00:34:51.270 --> 00:34:57.086
bit limited because in a presence
Congress, it would be easier to interact
00:34:57.086 --> 00:35:06.340
with it with each other. And. But yeah,
let's see that. And but first of all,
00:35:06.340 --> 00:35:17.618
maybe Andy, if you have the capacity for a
question from the interwebs. Then the
00:35:17.618 --> 00:35:23.992
question would be, how did you obtain the
pictures and camera footage from the
00:35:23.992 --> 00:35:30.055
embassy?
Andy: Well, this has to do with a legal
00:35:30.055 --> 00:35:40.070
analysis of this material. I'm myself, by
the way, you could switch on the video if
00:35:40.070 --> 00:35:46.814
you wanted. Well, I am myself accusing the
Spanish company to have spied on me and
00:35:46.814 --> 00:35:52.336
other colleagues, and so I'm part of that
legal proceedings. As as such, I'm also
00:35:52.336 --> 00:35:57.877
helping the lawyers to obtain the
technical evidence. There was a shitload
00:35:57.877 --> 00:36:04.242
of digital evidence confiscated that
needed forensic examination and so on. So
00:36:04.242 --> 00:36:10.356
this is material accessible to those who
have been affected by the illegal
00:36:10.356 --> 00:36:14.908
activities performed by U.C. Global and
others.
00:36:14.908 --> 00:36:25.840
Herald: All right. Then there's also the
question of are there pictures of the four
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:31.520
or the people inside it, but I think
that's pretty much a part of the video you
00:36:32.240 --> 00:36:34.160
have just shown or is there something
different?
00:36:34.160 --> 00:36:38.800
Andy: Is it? I'm sorry, I don't see what
is being broadcasted. Do you have access
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:45.880
to my sliding-to-the-streaming-laptop?
Herald: OK, yeah. I guess that
00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:50.560
Andy: This is the full video where you can
see the guys reading the briefing notes on
00:36:50.560 --> 00:36:55.920
the back seat. We have been able to zoom
in at (unintelligible) and so on.
00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:01.680
Herald: And yeah, where the question was,
where did you get it from? But I think you
00:37:01.680 --> 00:37:05.720
already answered that in the previous
question, because ...
00:37:05.720 --> 00:37:09.741
Andy: That's no answer to my question.
What should we shall do, guys? laughing
00:37:09.741 --> 00:37:16.880
Herald: Yeah. So, we have one line of
feedback, for example, that, uh, how to
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:22.800
get Julian Assange out of jail. One
proposal is "ask our foreign minister,
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:28.640
give Julian German citizenship", make it a
"Chef-Sache". So, part of the part of the
00:37:28.640 --> 00:37:33.920
chancellor. Uh, that's what it means in
German, in every German activities.
00:37:34.560 --> 00:37:39.680
Question mark? Would that work?
Andy: Mm hmm. It's being worked on. I
00:37:39.680 --> 00:37:45.840
mean, the new we have a new foreign
minister who is a woman from the Green
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:54.720
Party, and she seems to be very much a fan
of United States German relationship. I'm
00:37:54.720 --> 00:38:03.440
not sure how much she sees about a lack of
values that the U.S. government represents
00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:10.000
watching the history of the U.S.
Constitution and so on. But I'm sure there
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:18.880
is a lot work to be done there, and the
Green Party used to be also interested in
00:38:19.600 --> 00:38:26.480
a society and stand for human rights and
so on. So I would say, yes, it's
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:34.144
definitely it is a path to go.
Herald: All right. There's also a
00:38:34.144 --> 00:38:50.818
question, are you so be you personally
still under surveillance? Do you know?
00:38:50.818 --> 00:39:00.048
Andy: Well, I've taken some legal and
technical measures, and the German
00:39:00.048 --> 00:39:10.198
authorities have some evidence I provided
to them still in their analytical labs and
00:39:10.198 --> 00:39:19.118
so on. It's a little bit unrealistic to
assume that the Americans would not
00:39:19.118 --> 00:39:25.511
continue watching those who surrounded
Assange and WikiLeaks it as a member of
00:39:25.511 --> 00:39:31.424
the Wau Holland foundation, and we finance
the, ... we financed many of the
00:39:31.424 --> 00:39:37.280
publications and things or aspects of the
publication. So, it would be unlikely that
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:42.924
the US lost interest. But at least for the
moment, they seem to behave a little bit
00:39:42.924 --> 00:39:50.400
more, especially after the Yahoo article.
I think it became very obvious also to the
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:57.520
German authorities what was going on. So
the article was helpful. It's just that
00:39:57.520 --> 00:40:03.600
some aspects of the article are just pure
rubbish and disinformation that try to
00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:10.800
smoothen it up a little bit.
Herald: Mm hmm. All right. May I ask you
00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:20.153
to, maybe, just also bring up again the
slides with your questions, so we will
00:40:20.153 --> 00:40:22.357
have to put
Andy: Just a second.
00:40:22.357 --> 00:40:31.615
Herald: I think this will help to spark a
bit of discussion also.
00:40:31.615 --> 00:40:48.955
Andy: Sure, good point. ...Seem to need to
browse through. Here are the questions.
00:40:48.955 --> 00:40:57.454
Herald: All right, thank you. And, uh.
Another answer to how to get him out of
00:40:57.454 --> 00:41:08.778
jail is "Keep talking about Julian Assange
and the public attend vigils". I don't
00:41:08.778 --> 00:41:15.360
know what that means. Actually, uh, write
articles, write comments. Call the
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:21.625
Department of Justice, talk to
politicians. Communicate." So this is this
00:41:21.625 --> 00:41:24.816
is one answer. Like, like keep, keep the
word out.
00:41:24.816 --> 00:41:29.920
Andy: Yeah. I mean, let me briefly try to
interact with whoever gave that
00:41:30.560 --> 00:41:38.560
suggestion. I think it's well known that
in Germany, in France and some countries,
00:41:38.560 --> 00:41:42.800
there was quite some campaigns going on at
the last months, quite some people on the
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:51.120
street acting for Julian and a series of
events and so on. Also, a little bit in
00:41:51.120 --> 00:41:57.200
England, but England seems to be a very
tough under two aspects. The one is that
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:02.960
they don't have that of a self
understanding of a country with a
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:07.600
constitution guaranteeing freedom rights,
You know the United Kingdom does not have
00:42:07.600 --> 00:42:12.720
a constitution and it doesn't have what's
called constitutional rights. It does have
00:42:12.720 --> 00:42:21.360
similar statements, but they are not as
clearly defined and as a value system of a
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:27.440
democratic society. So, most British
people, if you ask them to do something
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:31.120
for freedom of press like the press, these
assholes, what should I do something for
00:42:31.120 --> 00:42:35.680
them? It's all very complicated and a bit
polarized over there. So but then the
00:42:35.680 --> 00:42:43.440
other aspect is that the UK government, to
say it bluntly, there's quite some people
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:48.640
who say that the UK government does what
the US government says. And in this case,
00:42:50.080 --> 00:42:55.920
there is no way, according to that
interpretation, that you can avoid the UK
00:42:55.920 --> 00:43:01.760
government handing Julian over to the
Americans. So, the problem needs to be
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:08.720
addressed in the US. And Germany and other
European countries have a different
00:43:08.720 --> 00:43:14.640
history, obviously, and I'm at least sure
that if Julian would be in Germany, I'm
00:43:14.640 --> 00:43:19.040
not sure he would be not having any
issues, but there would be a different
00:43:19.040 --> 00:43:27.440
discussion. However, the question how the
so-called old Europe or the continental
00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:33.200
Europe that is now even more ignored,
after a bitter exit from the Brits, can
00:43:33.200 --> 00:43:37.600
have any influence here in England, I
would say forget it on the US. It's more
00:43:37.600 --> 00:43:44.880
complicated. But for the moment, it seems
that similar to what happened to Julian
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:51.200
and WikiLeaks in our own community, that
there was quite a time-frame when the
00:43:51.200 --> 00:43:56.960
reputation to character assassination had
took on so much that actually he was seen
00:43:56.960 --> 00:44:05.440
as as a persona non grata more or less.
The United States political atmosphere is
00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:12.480
even more complicated and more polarized
between left, right and nuts, and whatever
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:22.320
that, it seems a very tricky task to bring
some sense into that discussion. As long
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:29.040
as you have the military intelligence
apparatus and Hillary Clinton saying,
00:44:29.040 --> 00:44:35.120
like, "hang him on the highest trees". So
there seemed to be quite, and that's also
00:44:35.120 --> 00:44:41.840
mentioned in the Yahoo article, a revenge
aspect of the United States legal system
00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:51.680
here. Not only Pompeo, that want to, yeah,
basically, to kill Julian as a symbol that
00:44:51.680 --> 00:44:57.520
no one should ever try to reveal the dirty
laundry of the United States. So yeah,
00:44:57.520 --> 00:45:04.720
this is a bit tricky and we will need more
ideas and how to also initiate a better
00:45:04.720 --> 00:45:14.080
discussion in the United States, maybe.
Herald: Mm hmm. Related to that. Another
00:45:14.080 --> 00:45:20.320
answer we got was, for example, of how to
how to stop the criminalization of
00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:28.320
journalism. And maybe also other question
of these questions is a vote for the right
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:39.120
people. And uh, while it probably can help
for some things, and what comes to my mind
00:45:39.120 --> 00:45:51.707
is, I mean, indeed, in this and also other
prosecutions and trials, very often there
00:45:51.707 --> 00:46:00.240
are some, uh, some ancient laws involved
on those grounds. People could get
00:46:00.240 --> 00:46:08.480
prosecuted, right? Isn't it, for Julian?
There is. There is the Intelligence Act,
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:11.760
or what's the name of...?
Andy: It is called the "Espionage Act". So
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:18.640
basically what the U.S. prosecution does
is there's a so-called secret grand-jury
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:25.440
that might have even more investigations
running against Julian, and WikiLeaks than
00:46:26.080 --> 00:46:31.440
that what has been put into the
extradition inquiry to the U.K. at this
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:39.040
point. However, that one already accuses
him to violating the Espionage Act, not
00:46:39.040 --> 00:46:45.440
declaring him having spied for another
country, but funnily having revealed
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:50.720
secrets to the American public and to the,
of course, public of other countries.
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:56.960
That's what they call espionage. That's a
little bit ridiculous. And it is, however,
00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:04.640
even more of a concern watching the fact
that a U.S. journalist would be able to
00:47:04.640 --> 00:47:10.080
claim the protection of the First
Amendment, the right of freedom of speech
00:47:10.080 --> 00:47:14.880
and the right of publishers and
journalists and so on. However, they deny
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:21.473
that because he's not a U.S. citizen. So
the US partially exports their laws and
00:47:21.473 --> 00:47:27.819
says, Well, you violate that against this
American law called the Espionage Act, but
00:47:27.819 --> 00:47:33.637
they do not grant him the protection of
the U.S. legal system. And that is, to
00:47:33.637 --> 00:47:42.663
call it hypocrisy is, I'm sorry, is too
nice. This is just really fucked up.
00:47:42.663 --> 00:47:58.400
Herald: Mm-Hmm. OK. Shouldn't, try to get
rid of, maybe like, the Espionage Act or
00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:02.475
or at least...
Andy: I am all for it. Dissolve the CIA,
00:48:02.475 --> 00:48:08.183
get rid of the Espionage Act. I'm all for
it. I just fear that at least part of our
00:48:08.183 --> 00:48:14.480
community will have to become, I don't
know, lawyers, lobbyists. Maybe we need to
00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:21.436
look for better communications with the US
hacker scene and see if they can kindly
00:48:21.436 --> 00:48:27.025
get into political consciousness mode and
get for a moment distracted from
00:48:27.025 --> 00:48:35.480
technology developments into society
development and see what can be done to
00:48:35.480 --> 00:48:40.742
ensure that in the future, we have the
right as a citizen to know what's
00:48:40.742 --> 00:48:44.026
happening in our name by government and so
on.
00:48:44.026 --> 00:48:53.680
Herald: Mm hmm. All right. Yeah, because
for example, I remember a couple of years
00:48:53.680 --> 00:49:00.960
ago, I don't know whether it was in the
2013, the year of Snowden or later where
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:10.560
we also had a talk at Congress about the
German post surveillance, for example,
00:49:10.560 --> 00:49:24.320
where back in the,... I think it was the
seventies. Uh, where we had the "Nato
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:32.040
Truppen-Statut", got into play. But there
was a verbal note from the from the forum
00:49:32.040 --> 00:49:38.240
to the German government who told the
allies, Well, we will be part of the "Nato
00:49:38.240 --> 00:49:45.280
Truppen-Statut" and all but don't be
afraid you will be able to have these
00:49:45.280 --> 00:49:55.600
powers. And as before, under Allies law,
you could say, and only after this, uh,
00:49:55.600 --> 00:50:01.120
the information the the investigative
journalism of I think it was a historian.
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:09.200
(...His toleration?...) Exactly. Mr
(...Fischer-Bot...). But uh, only after
00:50:09.200 --> 00:50:16.960
that came out, uh, to government had to
say, OK, well, we want to stop this. And
00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:24.400
now this at least officially is over.
Andy: Well, I mean, it's not really over.
00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:29.600
Germany is still a member of NATO, and
these regulations are still in place. And
00:50:29.600 --> 00:50:35.360
just to have it said, I mean it. The vault
7 revelations. If you look at the
00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:44.080
publications of WikiLeaks, you will see
the modules the CIA had developed to make
00:50:44.080 --> 00:50:50.080
software, a Trojan, a malware, whatever
kind of manipulations, to look like, it
00:50:50.080 --> 00:50:57.520
was coming from a specific country
timezone. So to make a malware or attacks
00:50:57.520 --> 00:51:01.920
on it systems make them look like they
come from Russia, China, Iran, you name
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:09.200
it. North Korea issued a list as well. And
this is the scenario we're looking at
00:51:09.200 --> 00:51:14.000
already. If you if you look at the news,
what happened the last years, we had all
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:19.120
these attacks, it was Russia, it was
China, it was Iran, It was North Korea
00:51:19.120 --> 00:51:27.280
must probably have forgotten some other
people who it was blamed on. But the
00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:35.520
discussion that the CIA would be having
the tools to make attribution misleading
00:51:35.520 --> 00:51:41.200
to a country. So what's called a false
flag operation in military terms is
00:51:41.200 --> 00:51:48.667
creating a scenario where exactly we as a
NATO member are now looking into military-
00:51:48.667 --> 00:51:55.920
like conflicts again, because the media
environment has been so poisoned with, "it
00:51:55.920 --> 00:52:01.360
was those guys and those guys hacking our
I.T., our parliament, our, you name it".
00:52:02.160 --> 00:52:10.560
This worries me. It worries me that we as
a technical community have not spent more
00:52:10.560 --> 00:52:16.160
attention to avoid the media environment
was able to like, create again just
00:52:16.160 --> 00:52:23.200
paintings of enemies and create an
atmosphere where war between countries
00:52:23.200 --> 00:52:29.280
seems possible again. And that's something
that's deeply disturbing to me. And I
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:34.160
think this is something we have to work on
more as a community also to ensure that
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:41.840
technical knowledge is not abused for
like, yeah, political games by withholding
00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:47.360
information.
Herald: Mm-Hmm.
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:52.080
Andy: And what I should mention is, yes,
we are only having about two minutes left
00:52:52.080 --> 00:53:00.000
here, something I didn't agree to be
available for a little discussion and a
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:06.640
whistleblower tent that's somewhere in
that virtual world. And the audience will
00:53:06.640 --> 00:53:10.640
hopefully find it.
Herald: All right.
00:53:10.640 --> 00:53:17.920
Andy: So then or whatever it's called.
Herald: Uh, sorry, and once once again,
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:19.104
what's the name of the of the whistle
blowert tent..
00:53:19.104 --> 00:53:26.000
Andy: Of the dog whistle blower village?
Herald: Okay, all right. So go out to the
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:35.040
whistleblowers tent. And so after after
this talk. And so maybe one last question.
00:53:36.560 --> 00:53:41.360
Is it possible to sue the UK government
for the treatment of Assange before the
00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:47.440
European Court of Human Rights?
Andy: And it's a little complicated.
00:53:48.640 --> 00:53:56.320
What's happening right now is I don't
think other talks have covering it is that
00:53:56.320 --> 00:54:03.680
Julian tries to avoid his extradition and
there is specific aspects of this which he
00:54:03.680 --> 00:54:11.760
might at some point be able to address at
the European Court of Human Rights. That,
00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:17.920
in theory, could stop his extradition, but
only if specific criteria are met, met and
00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:25.280
so on. How much now the UK government will
listen to it after the Brexit, and so one
00:54:25.280 --> 00:54:30.880
is its end due to political atmospheric
reasons. That's a little tricky. The
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:35.920
European Court of Human Rights is not part
of the EU agreement, so it doesn't matter
00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:42.880
that the UK stepped out of the EU, but it
is still an instrument of Europe and not
00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:52.960
of the friendship between the United
States and Great Britain. So. The
00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:59.680
atmosphere of the British government does
not suggest at this moment to be overly
00:54:59.680 --> 00:55:06.956
sensitive to anything coming from
continental Europe to say it carefully.
00:55:06.956 --> 00:55:14.796
And that's pretty bad. All right, so,
yeah. Thank you, Andy, for your for your
00:55:14.796 --> 00:55:21.240
talk. For everyone who's interested in to
form a discussion with you, please go over
00:55:21.240 --> 00:55:27.072
to the whistleblower. Talk on this channel
at cos it's on the stage. The next talk
00:55:27.072 --> 00:55:35.362
will be reproducible building network
infrastructure by Astro, which will start
00:55:35.362 --> 00:55:45.219
at 9:30 p.m.. So tune in for the next
course on a talk as well. And that's it
00:55:45.219 --> 00:55:50.950
for now. Thank you.
00:55:50.950 --> 00:55:53.259
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