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Herald: Welcome back on the Chaos-Sound[br]stage. I hope you had a great day so far.
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And after the Algorave talk, we are happy[br]to we're happy to host a talk by Andy
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Mueller-Maguhn. He is a long-time member[br]of the CCC. Now he is at Wau Holland
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Stiftung, and he's also a data journalist.[br]And today he will tell us a bit about
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things between WikiLeaks and the CIA. And[br]this talk is some kind of successor for
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talks he gave previously. And but for all[br]the details, he will tell them by himself.
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And yes, welcome Andy. And we're happy to[br]see what you can tell us. And all the
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interesting details that are in your talk.
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Andy: Thank you. OK. Good evening. So, I[br]named this talk "When WikiLeaks bumped
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into the CIA operation Kudo exposed". So,[br]explain a bit later what that is. Just as
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a reminder, the hacker community and the[br]CCC, even in its bylaws, one of the core
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things has always been information wants[br]to be free. First sentence up the hacker
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ethics brought a small snippet from Wau[br]himself where you will not hear the sound
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at this moment due to technical reasons,[br]but where he talked about the hacking of
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society through Freedom of Information. My[br]talk will have two parts, what happened so
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far and what should be done now. In the[br]first part. I just want to refer a little
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bit on the context of what I'm talking[br]about. So, this is about what happened
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surrounding WikiLeaks in the context of[br]the CIA and the United States government.
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Yeah, getting on them. I had two talks[br]about similar topics already in 2018 and
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2019 at the ..., you know, unfortunately[br]also. No, that was still the last real
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Congress. I talked about the technical[br]aspects of the surveillance. And you will
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see one image that I needed to copy from[br]that again. Then last year, I talked a
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little bit about the CIA versus WikiLeaks[br]to intimidation tactics. That was more
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what happened to me and other surrounding[br]WikiLeaks. Now, in the meantime, this
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year, end of September, came a very[br]important article in this context on Yahoo
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News, that seems to have been doing that.[br]Some guys have been hired there, who
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previously worked for Newsweek and others.[br]The article, from 26 of September, is
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called Kidnapping, Assassination at the[br]London Shootout, inside the Secret CIA
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Secret War Plans against WikiLeaks, and it[br]did reveal quite some things. It finally
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referred to my talk. It links even to the[br]video of my talk. It takes some quotes
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from it. It confirms a lot of it and adds[br]a lot. But it also frames and was framing.
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I mean, there is some disinformation[br]that's poisoning that otherwise very
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helpful article to understand what the[br]fuck was going on. So, what I'm trying to
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do today is to reconstruct the whole thing[br]a little bit to reframe it and help
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everybody to understand a little bit what[br]happened here. The Yahoo article
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rightfully distinguishes the timeframe of[br]the interaction, so to say, between the
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United States government and WikiLeaks[br]into four to five timeframes. One of them
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at the beginning of the WikiLeaks project.[br]Or, let's say, before Snowden, so before
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mid-2013, the Obama administration[br]authored the diplomatic cables had been
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published by WikiLeaks, Afghan / Iraq War[br]Logs and so on were out. They had the view
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that as long as some entity or some people[br]are publishing, are engaging and
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publishing it in journalistic activity,[br]there's nothing they can do because First
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Amendment of the United States[br]Constitution talks about the freedom of
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publishing the freedom of speech, and a[br]freedom that does include journalistic
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activity of all kinds. After the Snowden,[br]not revelations, but the fact that Edward
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Snowden was getting from Hong Kong on the[br]way to somewhere else, but he got to
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Moscow with the help of a WikiLeaks[br]editorial member, therefore in acting in
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what you could call journalistic source[br]protection. However, that brought the U.S.
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government to a slightly different view of[br]WikiLeaks. It didn't really like it, so
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Obama allowed the intelligence community[br]to prioritize collection WikiLeaks, search
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warrants, subpeonas, US National Security[br]Letters. So here we're not talking about,
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as far as the article mentions, about the[br]legal investigation yet. This intelligence
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work to, like they allowed them to get on[br]them? They also, in the context of the
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Snowden revelations, now, where it wasn't[br]WikiLeaks, it was Glenn Greenwald and
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Laura Poitras who had been given by Edward[br]Snowden the material, and they published
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the material together with Guardian, Der[br]Spiegel, the others. I was also involved
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with the Spiegel I should disclose.[br]However, they tried to relabel, not only
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WikiLeaks, but also Glenn, Laura and[br]others from journalists away to like
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information brokers. They tried all kinds[br]of definitions to circumvent the
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protection of the United States[br]Constitution, you could say. That went not
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that far. At least I have no actively[br]knowledge of a criminal prosecution
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running against Laura and Glenn. However,[br]there were for sure intelligence
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activities that they also reported on that[br]everybody who was involved in the
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publications, as you might know from[br]history, the Guardian was later forced to
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even destroy the computers where they had[br]put this Snowden material and so on. So,
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that was quite some things going on. In[br]2016, the next, yeah, like milestone in
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the change of the relations between the[br]United States government, WikiLeaks, to
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say it nicely, was the publication of the[br]DNC emails that by the definition of the
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National Security Agency, like they said,[br]this was Guccifer 2.0 was the Russian
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military intelligence at GRU and that the[br]whole publication was with the intention
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to hurt the interests of the United[br]States. This now is a first point where we
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could sit back from our European[br]perspective for a little bit and say, wait
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a moment. This was about leaking. I mean,[br]this was leaked emails. Or, however, let's
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say it was emails that somehow got leaked,[br]obtained or otherwise, but in any way,
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WikiLeaks published them. What the[br]discussion was about was how Hillary
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Clinton had treated Bernie Sanders as the[br]other candidate of the Democratic Party,
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and here obviously did not make it. She[br]made it. So, this we could call this
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exposing the facts in the public interest.[br]But as I said, the United States, at least
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National Security Agency and others seem[br]to have agreed that this was not intended
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to harm the United States, not what[br]Hillary Clinton did, but what WikiLeaks
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did in this publication. I think it's[br]important that we distinguish between how
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we evaluate these things and how the US[br]government puts this into different
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baskets or categories. However, then it[br]got much more wild, when WikiLeaks started
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at the beginning of 2017 to publish, with[br]the so-called full seven series, documents
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from the Central Intelligence Agency from[br]the CIA. Mike Pompeo was in charge of it.
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I did talk about this at length, and I[br]want to repeat this last year, so he got
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very upset personally because he was also[br]potentially personal responsible for it.
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So, It was under his watch, so to say.[br]However, the framing aspect of the article
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are worth having a brief look. The what[br]happened this year was so sad that the key
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witness of the prosecution Icelandic guy[br]called Sigurdor Thordarson made it public
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that actually he lied to the FBI and that[br]they fabricated part of the evidence based
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on his lies. Also, they could have[br]verified things. He later even was
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imprisoned for his multiple illegal acts,[br]and the Icelandic government saw it as
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reason enough to declare him a danger to[br]society and therefore lock him up. And
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that's not happening that easily in a[br]country like Iceland who normally people
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are very calm and down to earth. However,[br]the article came just after, a few weeks
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after, the publications on this fabricated[br]evidence. And it's fair to say that the
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gravity of the Yahoo article was a lot[br]higher and a lot more was discussed than
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about the fake evidence of the key witness[br]and so on. However, one other aspect that
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was in the Yahoo article was a thing that[br]is, from my reading, and I've talked to
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many people, there was no evidence for[br]this whatsoever. The Yahoo article claimed
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that there was the Russian government also[br]having like kind of officers in front of
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the Ecuadorian embassy or in the immediate[br]surrounding, preparing to help Julian to
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evacuate him, so to say, from England to[br]sneak him out, as the article says.,
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Russian intel preparing to sneak Assange[br]out of the UK. And this is a little bit
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wild and it's double wild when you or when[br]one looks at how the involvement of the
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Russian government, how that upsets[br]American people, the American media and so
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on. This is such a polarized environment[br]where the moment the Russian government is
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declared to be involved, it changes[br]everything. What's happened really here
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with something different and that is that[br]Julian had, in cooperation and in
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coordination with the Ecuadorian[br]government, found a way to legally leave
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the embassy and the United Kingdom by[br]becoming first an Ecuadorian citizen, then
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an Ecuadorian diplomat, and then in theory[br]he would have been able to leave the UK
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because a diplomat on the way to a[br]different working place has, under Vienna,
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diplomatic assurances, is immune from any[br]kind of interference. However, the article
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does reveal some aspects of what happened.[br]For example, the kidnapping plans, the
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assassination plans that the US government[br]considered the CIA played through ways to
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kill him in the embassy, to poison him, to[br]kidnap him from there. This kind of
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extreme acts did not happen, and the[br]article claims that, you know, justice
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prevailed. White House lawyers had doubts.[br]The National Security Council and the
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heads of the Senate and House Intelligence[br]Committees ensured that this wild ideas
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because they were not compatible with the[br]legal framework, not even with that of the
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United States, that that did not happen.[br]So, the article gives you kind of this
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American song melody of, yeah, we had some[br]wild things at the CIA going on, but you
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know, we are a democracy and we stopped[br]it. However, there were some actions that
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where, according to the article and the[br]witnesses and lawyers I talked to, well
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caught out, extensive spying on WikiLeaks[br]associates dealing with electronic
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devices. Then there were things there we[br]could talk about, like the article claims
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that, to what was also carried out, sowing[br]discord among the group's members. So now,
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if anyone of you is longer than a few[br]weeks in a CCC- like hacker club or
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working for a journalist organization or[br]working in any other group. I mean,
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according to my little experience, there's[br]quite a fight-club atmosphere out there
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for a while, and I'm personally, I[br]wouldn't always be able to distinguish
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between is this now a CIA operated, you[br]know, group fight? Or It's just normal
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group dynamics. People don't like each[br]other, people having disputes, people
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having different ideas how to do things[br]and so on. So, I would suggest you take
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this kind of claim with a grain of salt.[br]Not every dispute among a group has been
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created by the CIA. Also, I'm very[br]generous on bashing them. However, they
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also talked at some point they changed the[br]whole context of Julian and WikiLeaks from
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a target of collection to target of[br]destruction. Well, for sure, some things
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happened there, but this is not what I can[br]go into detail. So far, no detailed report
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on it. However, the project I talked about[br]that Julian would get legally out of the
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embassy as a member of Ecuadorian[br]diplomatic staff is coming together in a
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very it's like the most critical time[br]frame also, according to the article, and
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that we were able, that we were going[br]through with the lawyers to log files of
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the embassy security service, the videos[br]and so on. So, we have been able to
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identify the timeframe and the timeframe[br]is the 16th of December 2017 until the
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26th. This is the most critical timeframe,[br]because, around the 16th, he was
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officially not only declared a diplomat,[br]there was a publication in the Ecuadorean
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like a legal "judge set" or what it's[br]called. So like the legal publication in
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Ecuador to have him declared. He had,[br]around the 21st, the head of the
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Ecuadorian intelligence visiting him. So,[br]that means he also had the diplomatic
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passport. It was fully, formally done.[br]There was a discussion of the process and
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this meeting on the 21st I had mentioned[br]it in my talk last year was the most high
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priority conversation that ever happened[br]in the embassy, at least as far as we know
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from the witnesses of the security service[br]who later revealed to the court that they
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had been, yeah, instructed on behalf of[br]the CIA to do other things than to protect
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the embassy, but to spy on Julian. So this[br]meeting on the 21st was extremely
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important to the Americans, and we do know[br]roughly that the whole story ended through
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various means, but mainly to pressure on[br]the on the Ecuadorian government in Quito,
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in Ecuador, around the 26th when they[br]actually called the plan off because the
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Americans knew about every detail,[br]including how he would get out of the
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embassy, in what type of car and so on.[br]And they also then at some point denounced
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his diplomatic status after pressure from[br]the United States government. And in this
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time frame, I make here a little bit of an[br]event matrix, which is completely
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incomplete. I have to say this many things[br]missing for legal, for other reasons. You
0:17:56.834,0:18:01.462
know, some things are just too wild. The[br]U.S. government, for example, would never
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break into a European law office, right?[br]We can. That's bullshit. That's conspiracy
0:18:05.697,0:18:11.590
stuff. They don't do these things. They,[br]of course, comply with the law. However,
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we have some events that are funny and fit[br]well into our picture, for example, that
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after on the Saturday, the lawyers from[br]Spain and England were sitting together
0:18:24.934,0:18:29.737
with Julian that two days later, in[br]preparation of that meeting on the 21st
0:18:29.737,0:18:35.291
came the fire protection service into the[br]embassy. And those who seen my talk last
0:18:35.291,0:18:40.467
year know that one of the fire[br]extinguishers placed in the meeting room
0:18:40.467,0:18:47.211
had the main role for holding a bug.[br]However, I'm coming to that than we have
0:18:47.211,0:18:54.880
this observation that every day in this[br]time frame, there was a silver gray Ford
0:18:54.880,0:19:02.587
car with sometimes two, sometimes three,[br]sometimes more people sitting outside the
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embassy, seeming obviously to wait for[br]instructions. Something to happen. I'm
0:19:09.399,0:19:16.391
coming to that and we have other things[br]going on at that timeframe, that kind of
0:19:16.391,0:19:23.069
fit into the frame. So on the, ... I[br]selected three events to talk about them a
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few minutes. The first is this fire[br]extinguisher. 19:26 Here you see it and in
0:19:28.290,0:19:32.929
on the right picture, you're seeing the[br]black bottom of the fire extinguisher.
0:19:32.929,0:19:37.894
That's where they had a magnetic little[br]box with an audio microphone, I mean,
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audio bug in it, that seemed to have not[br]only recorded, but also transmits the
0:19:44.356,0:19:52.751
conversations, in life, to the American[br]intelligence outside. Funnily, this, ...
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on the 18th comes a company, not even from[br]London, the Iceland Fire Protection
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Limited, a guy and goes into all the rooms[br]in the embassy to check the fire
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extinguishers. Now, according to the[br]lawyers, there had been intensive
0:20:13.032,0:20:19.593
discussions with the employees, and David[br]Morales, the owner of U.C. Global, the
0:20:19.593,0:20:24.844
company that was originally hired to[br]protect the embassy, is known to have
0:20:24.844,0:20:29.704
talked to his people and emailed them,[br]mentioning that the Americans want also
0:20:29.704,0:20:36.117
that all the other rooms at some point to[br]be bugged and want access to the fire
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extinguishers. We don't know exactly what[br]happened in that discussion to the last
0:20:41.858,0:20:49.280
detail, but we know that on the 18th came[br]this British company. And this is a little
0:20:49.280,0:20:55.200
bit crass, and I think there will be many[br]other embassies of other countries who
0:20:55.200,0:21:00.320
will be interested to check if they don't[br]are maybe serviced by the same company.
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Now, the other nice event that I selected[br]is the night from the 23rd to the 24th.
0:21:10.320,0:21:17.440
So, the very morning, early morning hours[br]on the 24th of December morning, Christmas
0:21:17.440,0:21:24.080
morning, so to say, where you have the[br]three guys sitting in the car and on the
0:21:24.080,0:21:28.800
back seat on the right side, someone reads[br]the briefing notes, I will show you the,
0:21:30.400,0:21:36.480
oops. Don't tell me this. Hopefully it[br]works. OK, great. The video doesn't work.
0:21:37.520,0:21:44.720
I'm sorry. I can't show you the video[br]today. Maybe courtesy of the CIA, however.
0:21:45.600,0:21:50.160
So, the guy in the back seat browses[br]through the briefing notes, and we have
0:21:50.160,0:21:58.400
been able to at least read part of what[br]they have been, ... what this briefing
0:21:58.400,0:22:04.640
notes say. It says this page that we have[br]been able to read mostly was in the event
0:22:04.640,0:22:10.240
of loss of camera coverage. So, there was[br]a process to be established when the
0:22:10.240,0:22:14.800
surveillance cameras in the embassy[br]wouldn't deliver pictures anymore and the
0:22:14.800,0:22:19.840
guys outside a sitting partly, according[br]to the article, the British police guys
0:22:19.840,0:22:27.120
with guns, eight people, maybe without[br]guns, would be ready to jump into the
0:22:27.120,0:22:33.600
scene. Crash diplomatic cars, shoot into[br]tires of cars that would try to bring
0:22:33.600,0:22:40.000
Julian away, and so on, indicates which[br]way he would walk out. And so there's a
0:22:40.000,0:22:45.520
few key words here that I just want to[br]emphasize in the event of lots of camera
0:22:45.520,0:22:50.560
coverage standards, then there is talking[br]about something called GS7 that might be
0:22:50.560,0:22:56.160
code-word for CIA or something different.[br]MET is clearly the Metropolitan Police.
0:22:57.120,0:23:02.720
That's a normal acronym in England, and[br]they talk about the context of the
0:23:02.720,0:23:09.840
operation Kudo. So we looked up the word[br]Kudo. Kudo is something saying roughly
0:23:09.840,0:23:18.080
like friendship. So, we have to assume[br]this was a joint British American
0:23:18.080,0:23:23.280
operation, and that's exactly what the[br]Yahoo article describes. However, what it
0:23:23.280,0:23:29.920
does not describe is the legal[br]implication, because this could well be
0:23:30.560,0:23:35.840
one of the most or best well documented[br]breaches of the Vienna Convention,
0:23:36.560,0:23:43.440
basically saying that the premises of the[br]mission shall be inviolable, which is,
0:23:44.720,0:23:48.960
normally means that you shall not bug, you[br]shall not, you know, put surveillance
0:23:48.960,0:23:53.280
devices, cameras, hidden cameras or[br]whatever. You shall not hack into the
0:23:53.280,0:24:00.400
camera surveillance system, of an embassy,[br]asked to host state and so on and so that
0:24:00.400,0:24:04.800
intelligence do it and that the CIA was[br]doing it. In the case of the Ecuadorian
0:24:04.800,0:24:10.240
embassy, it's already part of a Spanish[br]lawsuit. However, the dimension is a
0:24:10.240,0:24:14.720
little bit different, as the British[br]police seems to have access have had
0:24:14.720,0:24:20.320
access to that video surveillance, and[br]that is potentially legally different
0:24:20.320,0:24:26.640
thing. That will be subject to some legal[br]steps going on in the next weeks and
0:24:26.640,0:24:37.040
months. The third event I selected for[br]relaxation issues is on the last day. You
0:24:37.040,0:24:42.400
see here two police officers carrying an[br]astonishing amount of eight cups of coffee
0:24:43.520,0:24:51.600
for a relatively small police car. That[br]gives you an idea what was going on there.
0:24:51.600,0:25:00.000
The British police being prepared to set[br]aside the conference room is about in the
0:25:00.000,0:25:06.960
area where there was a trash bag on the[br]left side is so giving you an idea of how
0:25:06.960,0:25:13.760
intense the British police was also on the[br]scene outside. So, what is currently
0:25:13.760,0:25:19.600
happening with this and a lot of other[br]material? Is, well, checking the violation
0:25:19.600,0:25:28.080
of the Vienna Convention then parsing[br]together many of the events and observing
0:25:28.080,0:25:33.840
patterns and trying to see those patterns[br]at other places. As we, of course, still
0:25:33.840,0:25:37.520
do not know the full scope of the[br]operations of the CIA and other
0:25:38.240,0:25:43.360
intelligence agencies against WikiLeaks.[br]This is just the tip of the iceberg, what
0:25:43.360,0:25:50.000
happened in London, but also to see where[br]other journalists were other citizens,
0:25:50.000,0:25:54.960
where other governments, organizations,[br]whatever were may be targeted with same or
0:25:54.960,0:26:02.400
similar ways and methods. So this brings[br]me to the second part of my little talk.
0:26:03.440,0:26:10.065
The question what needs to be done? So,[br]and I tried to first invite you to a
0:26:10.065,0:26:18.277
little reflection because, as some of you[br]might know, Julian Assange presented the
0:26:18.277,0:26:25.342
WikiLeaks project in the CCC Congress, end[br]of 2009. If I recall correctly, he made
0:26:25.342,0:26:32.080
another talk in 2010. This was very much a[br]project of the hacker community and it was
0:26:32.080,0:26:37.288
highly welcomed at the time because it was[br]like combining the idea of Freedom of
0:26:37.288,0:26:42.040
Information, which had always been and[br]sharing information which had always been
0:26:42.040,0:26:48.555
the spirit of the hacker scene with those[br]of journalists and democratic, yeah, think
0:26:48.555,0:26:54.729
tanks to ensure that we would have[br]actually an informed society, not just
0:26:54.729,0:27:00.257
this very weird concept of an information[br]society which does not really say anything
0:27:00.257,0:27:05.080
between the relationship between[br]information and society. But an informed
0:27:05.080,0:27:10.000
society is a clear picture, I think. And[br]therefore, the better wording. So, the
0:27:10.000,0:27:14.370
other question is, of course, is what?[br]What does this whole thing? This what we
0:27:14.370,0:27:20.601
have been reading in the article and what[br]we're now a step by step here revealing
0:27:20.601,0:27:26.297
and starting to understand. What does it[br]tell us about the United States
0:27:26.297,0:27:34.132
government's prosecution, of DOJ, Pompeo,[br]the CIA, all these people? How (competent)
0:27:34.132,0:27:41.768
are they really to decide to society that[br]is based on an informed electorate, like
0:27:41.768,0:27:48.084
the people making decisions based on[br]knowledge and voting based on knowing
0:27:48.084,0:27:54.127
what's going on? And that's slightly[br]disturbing, I think what we what this
0:27:54.127,0:28:01.772
thought brings us to. So, here's my little[br]ideas, and then I will just come with some
0:28:01.772,0:28:09.159
questions to the audience. So, yeah, what[br]can we do and what maybe should we do?
0:28:09.159,0:28:14.345
This is, here, just some ideas of mine.[br]While we could, of course, hope that the
0:28:14.345,0:28:19.551
United States, the people of the United[br]States, the government of the United
0:28:19.551,0:28:25.840
States would understand that core[br]democratic value was attacked here when
0:28:25.840,0:28:34.194
going against Assange, WikiLeaks and so[br]on. So in theory, we should, we could hope
0:28:34.194,0:28:41.664
that the self-healing or the self[br]understanding and mechanisms of the United
0:28:41.664,0:28:47.480
States society will stop this madness[br]because they will see, Hey, wait a moment,
0:28:47.480,0:28:53.834
this is our constitutional First Amendment[br]that we are attacking here indirectly. And
0:28:53.834,0:28:59.711
if we don't have like the publishers,[br]right, journalists and publishers right to
0:28:59.711,0:29:06.632
inform the public, then we have nothing.[br]Well, the second, obviously, level would
0:29:06.632,0:29:15.520
be to dissolve the CIA. Yeah, I mean,[br]Kennedy had this idea before, shatter it
0:29:15.520,0:29:23.336
and the wind and so on. But I don't know[br]how at least this shall continue with that
0:29:23.336,0:29:30.553
budget, with the information operations,[br]with the influence operations, where
0:29:30.553,0:29:37.480
actually "wag the dog" is just a tiny[br]little aspect of it. Because the question
0:29:37.480,0:29:43.368
is how shall a democratic government work[br]as long as there's an intelligence agency
0:29:43.368,0:29:48.420
that has all the knowledge about every[br]person involved in all the little
0:29:48.420,0:29:54.454
compromat boxes and the aspect of how to[br]nudge and how to influence and how to
0:29:54.454,0:30:00.091
manipulate and so on? Well, and then the[br]third aspect outside the United States,
0:30:00.091,0:30:05.775
here in Europe, is of course, the question[br]of how can we immunize those people,
0:30:05.775,0:30:11.194
entities governmental organization and so[br]on where it still seems possible to
0:30:11.194,0:30:17.208
understand that this is core, that[br]journalism and the right to inform the
0:30:17.208,0:30:23.264
public by making also information and[br]material public that governments,
0:30:23.264,0:30:29.259
corporations or whoever would like to keep[br]secret? But if that documents are playing
0:30:29.259,0:30:35.238
a role in informing the public in the[br]public interest and it must be allowed to
0:30:35.238,0:30:42.476
make it public, and that was what's called[br]the Fourth Estate or the right of the
0:30:42.476,0:30:49.084
press to inform the public. Yeah, how can[br]we do that? That of course, more a
0:30:49.084,0:30:55.124
question. And and here's my list of[br]questions that I will want to address to
0:30:55.124,0:31:02.408
the audience. We should have 20 minutes[br]and maybe a few seconds for a discussion
0:31:02.408,0:31:10.153
of this. So guys, how do we get Assange[br]out of jail? Ladies and gentlemen, how do
0:31:10.153,0:31:15.120
we do it? How do we stop the[br]criminalization of journalism and those
0:31:15.120,0:31:20.246
who ensure access to information in the[br]public? Is this in order to achieve an
0:31:20.246,0:31:26.680
informed society? That's our duty I fear.[br]How do we ensure a value driven community?
0:31:26.680,0:31:34.051
So, as everybody knows, the CCC had always[br]different factions. The political and the
0:31:34.051,0:31:39.677
technical factions then came at some point[br]a party, the event and hedonism aspects
0:31:39.677,0:31:46.480
all together. And we had a great fun time.[br]But I'm not sure that we also took care of
0:31:46.480,0:31:52.646
ensuring that we are value driven[br]community all the way. I mean, when we
0:31:52.646,0:31:59.539
look at this year and the NSA methods[br]that's obviously some kind of atmosphere
0:31:59.539,0:32:05.347
between those who work in the I.T.[br]security industry and those who maybe then
0:32:05.347,0:32:10.488
take offers from the intelligence[br]community. And that's not the spirit of
0:32:10.488,0:32:16.560
the hacker ethics, and that's not just the[br]spirit of the CCC, and that's not the
0:32:16.560,0:32:23.640
spirit of an informed society that people[br]with money who instrumentalized technology
0:32:23.640,0:32:29.805
people and. You don't have to like look at[br]the CIA as the most crass, may be entity.
0:32:29.805,0:32:36.662
It starts with the so-called Open[br]Technology Fund. I mean, we had various
0:32:36.662,0:32:43.885
years the ability to observe how the Tor[br]project had its issues between the two
0:32:43.885,0:32:49.240
worlds of the US government having this[br]and that ideas and our community having
0:32:49.240,0:32:54.955
other ideas of how anonymization works.[br]And I'm not sure we can say that our
0:32:54.955,0:33:02.648
values have been preserved and we have[br]ensured that OTF finance projects do not
0:33:02.648,0:33:09.490
serve just some funny governmental[br]interest. And when it was relabeled partly
0:33:09.490,0:33:17.177
from internet freedom to circumvention[br]measures that I think gave already some
0:33:17.177,0:33:24.880
ideas on what could go wrong if, yeah,[br]governments start to fund projects of the
0:33:24.880,0:33:31.975
so-called hacker scene. Yeah, so, this is[br]my questions to you guys. How do we get
0:33:31.975,0:33:39.271
him out? How do we ensure our society[br]stays intact and democratic? And how do
0:33:39.271,0:33:47.087
we, as a scene, avoid to be corrupted by[br]governmental money and funny interests?
0:33:47.087,0:33:55.325
And I hope the moderation cannot take over[br]and provide some answers from the
0:33:55.325,0:33:58.784
audience.
0:33:58.784,0:34:07.529
Herald: All right, thank you very much,[br]Andy, for your talk. Let's see how this
0:34:07.529,0:34:14.515
will work. Thank you, also, for your[br]questions to the audience.
0:34:14.515,0:34:21.980
Andy: I will try, in the meantime, to fix[br]this video and make it this one minute, 23
0:34:21.980,0:34:24.185
seconds video.[br]Herald: All right.
0:34:24.185,0:34:29.884
Andy: I can show it, but maybe you can[br]start to take the questions.
0:34:29.884,0:34:38.114
Herald: Sure, yeah, and yes, so let's say[br]to the audience, please put your possible
0:34:38.114,0:34:45.824
answers to Andy's questions in the chat. I[br]will. I will follow them as good as I can.
0:34:45.824,0:34:51.270
And so that we can have a lively[br]discussion. I know it might be a little
0:34:51.270,0:34:57.086
bit limited because in a presence[br]Congress, it would be easier to interact
0:34:57.086,0:35:06.340
with it with each other. And. But yeah,[br]let's see that. And but first of all,
0:35:06.340,0:35:17.618
maybe Andy, if you have the capacity for a[br]question from the interwebs. Then the
0:35:17.618,0:35:23.992
question would be, how did you obtain the[br]pictures and camera footage from the
0:35:23.992,0:35:30.055
embassy?[br]Andy: Well, this has to do with a legal
0:35:30.055,0:35:40.070
analysis of this material. I'm myself, by[br]the way, you could switch on the video if
0:35:40.070,0:35:46.814
you wanted. Well, I am myself accusing the[br]Spanish company to have spied on me and
0:35:46.814,0:35:52.336
other colleagues, and so I'm part of that[br]legal proceedings. As as such, I'm also
0:35:52.336,0:35:57.877
helping the lawyers to obtain the[br]technical evidence. There was a shitload
0:35:57.877,0:36:04.242
of digital evidence confiscated that[br]needed forensic examination and so on. So
0:36:04.242,0:36:10.356
this is material accessible to those who[br]have been affected by the illegal
0:36:10.356,0:36:14.908
activities performed by U.C. Global and[br]others.
0:36:14.908,0:36:25.840
Herald: All right. Then there's also the[br]question of are there pictures of the four
0:36:25.840,0:36:31.520
or the people inside it, but I think[br]that's pretty much a part of the video you
0:36:32.240,0:36:34.160
have just shown or is there something[br]different?
0:36:34.160,0:36:38.800
Andy: Is it? I'm sorry, I don't see what[br]is being broadcasted. Do you have access
0:36:38.800,0:36:45.880
to my sliding-to-the-streaming-laptop?[br]Herald: OK, yeah. I guess that
0:36:45.880,0:36:50.560
Andy: This is the full video where you can[br]see the guys reading the briefing notes on
0:36:50.560,0:36:55.920
the back seat. We have been able to zoom[br]in at (unintelligible) and so on.
0:36:55.920,0:37:01.680
Herald: And yeah, where the question was,[br]where did you get it from? But I think you
0:37:01.680,0:37:05.720
already answered that in the previous[br]question, because ...
0:37:05.720,0:37:09.741
Andy: That's no answer to my question.[br]What should we shall do, guys? laughing
0:37:09.741,0:37:16.880
Herald: Yeah. So, we have one line of[br]feedback, for example, that, uh, how to
0:37:16.880,0:37:22.800
get Julian Assange out of jail. One[br]proposal is "ask our foreign minister,
0:37:22.800,0:37:28.640
give Julian German citizenship", make it a[br]"Chef-Sache". So, part of the part of the
0:37:28.640,0:37:33.920
chancellor. Uh, that's what it means in[br]German, in every German activities.
0:37:34.560,0:37:39.680
Question mark? Would that work?[br]Andy: Mm hmm. It's being worked on. I
0:37:39.680,0:37:45.840
mean, the new we have a new foreign[br]minister who is a woman from the Green
0:37:45.840,0:37:54.720
Party, and she seems to be very much a fan[br]of United States German relationship. I'm
0:37:54.720,0:38:03.440
not sure how much she sees about a lack of[br]values that the U.S. government represents
0:38:03.440,0:38:10.000
watching the history of the U.S.[br]Constitution and so on. But I'm sure there
0:38:10.000,0:38:18.880
is a lot work to be done there, and the[br]Green Party used to be also interested in
0:38:19.600,0:38:26.480
a society and stand for human rights and[br]so on. So I would say, yes, it's
0:38:26.480,0:38:34.144
definitely it is a path to go.[br]Herald: All right. There's also a
0:38:34.144,0:38:50.818
question, are you so be you personally[br]still under surveillance? Do you know?
0:38:50.818,0:39:00.048
Andy: Well, I've taken some legal and[br]technical measures, and the German
0:39:00.048,0:39:10.198
authorities have some evidence I provided[br]to them still in their analytical labs and
0:39:10.198,0:39:19.118
so on. It's a little bit unrealistic to[br]assume that the Americans would not
0:39:19.118,0:39:25.511
continue watching those who surrounded[br]Assange and WikiLeaks it as a member of
0:39:25.511,0:39:31.424
the Wau Holland foundation, and we finance[br]the, ... we financed many of the
0:39:31.424,0:39:37.280
publications and things or aspects of the[br]publication. So, it would be unlikely that
0:39:37.280,0:39:42.924
the US lost interest. But at least for the[br]moment, they seem to behave a little bit
0:39:42.924,0:39:50.400
more, especially after the Yahoo article.[br]I think it became very obvious also to the
0:39:50.400,0:39:57.520
German authorities what was going on. So[br]the article was helpful. It's just that
0:39:57.520,0:40:03.600
some aspects of the article are just pure[br]rubbish and disinformation that try to
0:40:04.800,0:40:10.800
smoothen it up a little bit.[br]Herald: Mm hmm. All right. May I ask you
0:40:10.800,0:40:20.153
to, maybe, just also bring up again the[br]slides with your questions, so we will
0:40:20.153,0:40:22.357
have to put[br]Andy: Just a second.
0:40:22.357,0:40:31.615
Herald: I think this will help to spark a[br]bit of discussion also.
0:40:31.615,0:40:48.955
Andy: Sure, good point. ...Seem to need to[br]browse through. Here are the questions.
0:40:48.955,0:40:57.454
Herald: All right, thank you. And, uh.[br]Another answer to how to get him out of
0:40:57.454,0:41:08.778
jail is "Keep talking about Julian Assange[br]and the public attend vigils". I don't
0:41:08.778,0:41:15.360
know what that means. Actually, uh, write[br]articles, write comments. Call the
0:41:15.360,0:41:21.625
Department of Justice, talk to[br]politicians. Communicate." So this is this
0:41:21.625,0:41:24.816
is one answer. Like, like keep, keep the[br]word out.
0:41:24.816,0:41:29.920
Andy: Yeah. I mean, let me briefly try to[br]interact with whoever gave that
0:41:30.560,0:41:38.560
suggestion. I think it's well known that[br]in Germany, in France and some countries,
0:41:38.560,0:41:42.800
there was quite some campaigns going on at[br]the last months, quite some people on the
0:41:42.800,0:41:51.120
street acting for Julian and a series of[br]events and so on. Also, a little bit in
0:41:51.120,0:41:57.200
England, but England seems to be a very[br]tough under two aspects. The one is that
0:41:57.760,0:42:02.960
they don't have that of a self[br]understanding of a country with a
0:42:02.960,0:42:07.600
constitution guaranteeing freedom rights,[br]You know the United Kingdom does not have
0:42:07.600,0:42:12.720
a constitution and it doesn't have what's[br]called constitutional rights. It does have
0:42:12.720,0:42:21.360
similar statements, but they are not as[br]clearly defined and as a value system of a
0:42:21.360,0:42:27.440
democratic society. So, most British[br]people, if you ask them to do something
0:42:27.440,0:42:31.120
for freedom of press like the press, these[br]assholes, what should I do something for
0:42:31.120,0:42:35.680
them? It's all very complicated and a bit[br]polarized over there. So but then the
0:42:35.680,0:42:43.440
other aspect is that the UK government, to[br]say it bluntly, there's quite some people
0:42:43.440,0:42:48.640
who say that the UK government does what[br]the US government says. And in this case,
0:42:50.080,0:42:55.920
there is no way, according to that[br]interpretation, that you can avoid the UK
0:42:55.920,0:43:01.760
government handing Julian over to the[br]Americans. So, the problem needs to be
0:43:01.760,0:43:08.720
addressed in the US. And Germany and other[br]European countries have a different
0:43:08.720,0:43:14.640
history, obviously, and I'm at least sure[br]that if Julian would be in Germany, I'm
0:43:14.640,0:43:19.040
not sure he would be not having any[br]issues, but there would be a different
0:43:19.040,0:43:27.440
discussion. However, the question how the[br]so-called old Europe or the continental
0:43:27.440,0:43:33.200
Europe that is now even more ignored,[br]after a bitter exit from the Brits, can
0:43:33.200,0:43:37.600
have any influence here in England, I[br]would say forget it on the US. It's more
0:43:37.600,0:43:44.880
complicated. But for the moment, it seems[br]that similar to what happened to Julian
0:43:44.880,0:43:51.200
and WikiLeaks in our own community, that[br]there was quite a time-frame when the
0:43:51.200,0:43:56.960
reputation to character assassination had[br]took on so much that actually he was seen
0:43:56.960,0:44:05.440
as as a persona non grata more or less.[br]The United States political atmosphere is
0:44:05.440,0:44:12.480
even more complicated and more polarized[br]between left, right and nuts, and whatever
0:44:13.280,0:44:22.320
that, it seems a very tricky task to bring[br]some sense into that discussion. As long
0:44:22.320,0:44:29.040
as you have the military intelligence[br]apparatus and Hillary Clinton saying,
0:44:29.040,0:44:35.120
like, "hang him on the highest trees". So[br]there seemed to be quite, and that's also
0:44:35.120,0:44:41.840
mentioned in the Yahoo article, a revenge[br]aspect of the United States legal system
0:44:41.840,0:44:51.680
here. Not only Pompeo, that want to, yeah,[br]basically, to kill Julian as a symbol that
0:44:51.680,0:44:57.520
no one should ever try to reveal the dirty[br]laundry of the United States. So yeah,
0:44:57.520,0:45:04.720
this is a bit tricky and we will need more[br]ideas and how to also initiate a better
0:45:04.720,0:45:14.080
discussion in the United States, maybe.[br]Herald: Mm hmm. Related to that. Another
0:45:14.080,0:45:20.320
answer we got was, for example, of how to[br]how to stop the criminalization of
0:45:20.320,0:45:28.320
journalism. And maybe also other question[br]of these questions is a vote for the right
0:45:28.320,0:45:39.120
people. And uh, while it probably can help[br]for some things, and what comes to my mind
0:45:39.120,0:45:51.707
is, I mean, indeed, in this and also other[br]prosecutions and trials, very often there
0:45:51.707,0:46:00.240
are some, uh, some ancient laws involved[br]on those grounds. People could get
0:46:00.240,0:46:08.480
prosecuted, right? Isn't it, for Julian?[br]There is. There is the Intelligence Act,
0:46:08.480,0:46:11.760
or what's the name of...?[br]Andy: It is called the "Espionage Act". So
0:46:12.800,0:46:18.640
basically what the U.S. prosecution does[br]is there's a so-called secret grand-jury
0:46:20.320,0:46:25.440
that might have even more investigations[br]running against Julian, and WikiLeaks than
0:46:26.080,0:46:31.440
that what has been put into the[br]extradition inquiry to the U.K. at this
0:46:31.440,0:46:39.040
point. However, that one already accuses[br]him to violating the Espionage Act, not
0:46:39.040,0:46:45.440
declaring him having spied for another[br]country, but funnily having revealed
0:46:45.440,0:46:50.720
secrets to the American public and to the,[br]of course, public of other countries.
0:46:51.280,0:46:56.960
That's what they call espionage. That's a[br]little bit ridiculous. And it is, however,
0:46:56.960,0:47:04.640
even more of a concern watching the fact[br]that a U.S. journalist would be able to
0:47:04.640,0:47:10.080
claim the protection of the First[br]Amendment, the right of freedom of speech
0:47:10.080,0:47:14.880
and the right of publishers and[br]journalists and so on. However, they deny
0:47:14.880,0:47:21.473
that because he's not a U.S. citizen. So[br]the US partially exports their laws and
0:47:21.473,0:47:27.819
says, Well, you violate that against this[br]American law called the Espionage Act, but
0:47:27.819,0:47:33.637
they do not grant him the protection of[br]the U.S. legal system. And that is, to
0:47:33.637,0:47:42.663
call it hypocrisy is, I'm sorry, is too[br]nice. This is just really fucked up.
0:47:42.663,0:47:58.400
Herald: Mm-Hmm. OK. Shouldn't, try to get[br]rid of, maybe like, the Espionage Act or
0:47:58.400,0:48:02.475
or at least...[br]Andy: I am all for it. Dissolve the CIA,
0:48:02.475,0:48:08.183
get rid of the Espionage Act. I'm all for[br]it. I just fear that at least part of our
0:48:08.183,0:48:14.480
community will have to become, I don't[br]know, lawyers, lobbyists. Maybe we need to
0:48:14.480,0:48:21.436
look for better communications with the US[br]hacker scene and see if they can kindly
0:48:21.436,0:48:27.025
get into political consciousness mode and[br]get for a moment distracted from
0:48:27.025,0:48:35.480
technology developments into society[br]development and see what can be done to
0:48:35.480,0:48:40.742
ensure that in the future, we have the[br]right as a citizen to know what's
0:48:40.742,0:48:44.026
happening in our name by government and so[br]on.
0:48:44.026,0:48:53.680
Herald: Mm hmm. All right. Yeah, because[br]for example, I remember a couple of years
0:48:53.680,0:49:00.960
ago, I don't know whether it was in the[br]2013, the year of Snowden or later where
0:49:00.960,0:49:10.560
we also had a talk at Congress about the[br]German post surveillance, for example,
0:49:10.560,0:49:24.320
where back in the,... I think it was the[br]seventies. Uh, where we had the "Nato
0:49:24.320,0:49:32.040
Truppen-Statut", got into play. But there[br]was a verbal note from the from the forum
0:49:32.040,0:49:38.240
to the German government who told the[br]allies, Well, we will be part of the "Nato
0:49:38.240,0:49:45.280
Truppen-Statut" and all but don't be[br]afraid you will be able to have these
0:49:45.280,0:49:55.600
powers. And as before, under Allies law,[br]you could say, and only after this, uh,
0:49:55.600,0:50:01.120
the information the the investigative[br]journalism of I think it was a historian.
0:50:01.840,0:50:09.200
(...His toleration?...) Exactly. Mr[br](...Fischer-Bot...). But uh, only after
0:50:09.200,0:50:16.960
that came out, uh, to government had to[br]say, OK, well, we want to stop this. And
0:50:16.960,0:50:24.400
now this at least officially is over.[br]Andy: Well, I mean, it's not really over.
0:50:24.400,0:50:29.600
Germany is still a member of NATO, and[br]these regulations are still in place. And
0:50:29.600,0:50:35.360
just to have it said, I mean it. The vault[br]7 revelations. If you look at the
0:50:35.360,0:50:44.080
publications of WikiLeaks, you will see[br]the modules the CIA had developed to make
0:50:44.080,0:50:50.080
software, a Trojan, a malware, whatever[br]kind of manipulations, to look like, it
0:50:50.080,0:50:57.520
was coming from a specific country[br]timezone. So to make a malware or attacks
0:50:57.520,0:51:01.920
on it systems make them look like they[br]come from Russia, China, Iran, you name
0:51:01.920,0:51:09.200
it. North Korea issued a list as well. And[br]this is the scenario we're looking at
0:51:09.200,0:51:14.000
already. If you if you look at the news,[br]what happened the last years, we had all
0:51:14.000,0:51:19.120
these attacks, it was Russia, it was[br]China, it was Iran, It was North Korea
0:51:19.120,0:51:27.280
must probably have forgotten some other[br]people who it was blamed on. But the
0:51:27.280,0:51:35.520
discussion that the CIA would be having[br]the tools to make attribution misleading
0:51:35.520,0:51:41.200
to a country. So what's called a false[br]flag operation in military terms is
0:51:41.200,0:51:48.667
creating a scenario where exactly we as a[br]NATO member are now looking into military-
0:51:48.667,0:51:55.920
like conflicts again, because the media[br]environment has been so poisoned with, "it
0:51:55.920,0:52:01.360
was those guys and those guys hacking our[br]I.T., our parliament, our, you name it".
0:52:02.160,0:52:10.560
This worries me. It worries me that we as[br]a technical community have not spent more
0:52:10.560,0:52:16.160
attention to avoid the media environment[br]was able to like, create again just
0:52:16.160,0:52:23.200
paintings of enemies and create an[br]atmosphere where war between countries
0:52:23.200,0:52:29.280
seems possible again. And that's something[br]that's deeply disturbing to me. And I
0:52:29.280,0:52:34.160
think this is something we have to work on[br]more as a community also to ensure that
0:52:34.800,0:52:41.840
technical knowledge is not abused for[br]like, yeah, political games by withholding
0:52:41.840,0:52:47.360
information.[br]Herald: Mm-Hmm.
0:52:47.360,0:52:52.080
Andy: And what I should mention is, yes,[br]we are only having about two minutes left
0:52:52.080,0:53:00.000
here, something I didn't agree to be[br]available for a little discussion and a
0:53:00.000,0:53:06.640
whistleblower tent that's somewhere in[br]that virtual world. And the audience will
0:53:06.640,0:53:10.640
hopefully find it.[br]Herald: All right.
0:53:10.640,0:53:17.920
Andy: So then or whatever it's called.[br]Herald: Uh, sorry, and once once again,
0:53:17.920,0:53:19.104
what's the name of the of the whistle[br]blowert tent..
0:53:19.104,0:53:26.000
Andy: Of the dog whistle blower village?[br]Herald: Okay, all right. So go out to the
0:53:26.000,0:53:35.040
whistleblowers tent. And so after after[br]this talk. And so maybe one last question.
0:53:36.560,0:53:41.360
Is it possible to sue the UK government[br]for the treatment of Assange before the
0:53:41.360,0:53:47.440
European Court of Human Rights?[br]Andy: And it's a little complicated.
0:53:48.640,0:53:56.320
What's happening right now is I don't[br]think other talks have covering it is that
0:53:56.320,0:54:03.680
Julian tries to avoid his extradition and[br]there is specific aspects of this which he
0:54:03.680,0:54:11.760
might at some point be able to address at[br]the European Court of Human Rights. That,
0:54:11.760,0:54:17.920
in theory, could stop his extradition, but[br]only if specific criteria are met, met and
0:54:17.920,0:54:25.280
so on. How much now the UK government will[br]listen to it after the Brexit, and so one
0:54:25.280,0:54:30.880
is its end due to political atmospheric[br]reasons. That's a little tricky. The
0:54:30.880,0:54:35.920
European Court of Human Rights is not part[br]of the EU agreement, so it doesn't matter
0:54:35.920,0:54:42.880
that the UK stepped out of the EU, but it[br]is still an instrument of Europe and not
0:54:42.880,0:54:52.960
of the friendship between the United[br]States and Great Britain. So. The
0:54:52.960,0:54:59.680
atmosphere of the British government does[br]not suggest at this moment to be overly
0:54:59.680,0:55:06.956
sensitive to anything coming from[br]continental Europe to say it carefully.
0:55:06.956,0:55:14.796
And that's pretty bad. All right, so,[br]yeah. Thank you, Andy, for your for your
0:55:14.796,0:55:21.240
talk. For everyone who's interested in to[br]form a discussion with you, please go over
0:55:21.240,0:55:27.072
to the whistleblower. Talk on this channel[br]at cos it's on the stage. The next talk
0:55:27.072,0:55:35.362
will be reproducible building network[br]infrastructure by Astro, which will start
0:55:35.362,0:55:45.219
at 9:30 p.m.. So tune in for the next[br]course on a talk as well. And that's it
0:55:45.219,0:55:50.950
for now. Thank you.
0:55:50.950,0:55:53.259
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0:55:53.259,0:56:00.305
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