WEBVTT 00:00:05.406 --> 00:00:07.989 (upbeat music) 00:00:56.950 --> 00:01:00.330 - Well, first, I just wanna give my condolences to you 00:01:00.330 --> 00:01:03.000 and say, I'm sorry for your losses 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:05.030 and thank you for your work. 00:01:05.030 --> 00:01:08.803 And I wanna know how are you right now? 00:01:10.690 --> 00:01:12.413 - Thank you, that's very kind. 00:01:15.843 --> 00:01:18.650 I think I'm okay, no actually, that's not true. 00:01:18.650 --> 00:01:21.530 I think 'cause one of the things I'm learning from grief 00:01:21.530 --> 00:01:24.270 is to be, how important I think it is 00:01:24.270 --> 00:01:25.613 to be honest about grief. 00:01:26.470 --> 00:01:29.960 I am not okay, 00:01:29.960 --> 00:01:32.180 but I also don't think I should be okay 00:01:32.180 --> 00:01:37.010 because something just too catastrophic 00:01:37.010 --> 00:01:40.950 things happen in my life too soon, one after the other. 00:01:40.950 --> 00:01:45.950 But I'm also, I have good days 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:48.090 and I have days that are not good at all. 00:01:49.360 --> 00:01:54.100 And I'm just learning that grief is such a complicated, 00:01:54.100 --> 00:01:58.593 multifaceted, difficult thing. 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:01.720 I was very close to my parents 00:02:01.720 --> 00:02:05.623 and when my father died last June, 00:02:06.620 --> 00:02:09.160 it's interesting 'cause I just wouldn't, nothing, 00:02:09.160 --> 00:02:13.490 I would never have imagined that my mother would die 00:02:13.490 --> 00:02:15.340 a few months later on his birthday. 00:02:15.340 --> 00:02:18.100 It just, and so I think it's sort of that idea 00:02:18.100 --> 00:02:21.110 of having two types of grief to deal with 00:02:21.110 --> 00:02:24.443 making peace with one to an extent and not with the other. 00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:28.117 - Right, you wrote that. 00:02:28.117 --> 00:02:30.567 "How does your heart break twice?" 00:02:31.760 --> 00:02:35.390 Yeah, how are you, through the grief, 00:02:35.390 --> 00:02:40.120 how are you keeping their memories alive 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:43.403 for not just you but for your daughter? 00:02:44.670 --> 00:02:49.280 - Yeah, so I feel so grateful that she knew them 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:53.250 and that they knew her, and so she's almost six, 00:02:53.250 --> 00:02:55.180 and so she has very clear memories 00:02:55.180 --> 00:02:59.730 and I talk about them with her all the time. 00:02:59.730 --> 00:03:01.810 And I just often will say to her, 00:03:01.810 --> 00:03:03.213 what does grandma call you? 00:03:03.213 --> 00:03:04.830 What does grandpa call me? 00:03:04.830 --> 00:03:06.040 And we had names for her. 00:03:06.040 --> 00:03:09.430 My mother called her Asama, which means beautiful child 00:03:09.430 --> 00:03:12.430 and my father called her Isboma, which is good child. 00:03:12.430 --> 00:03:13.843 And so we do that a lot. 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:17.350 And so what I want to do is to just try 00:03:17.350 --> 00:03:19.500 and make it sort of organic and ordinary, 00:03:19.500 --> 00:03:23.630 that they're always there as part of the story of her life. 00:03:25.590 --> 00:03:27.617 And she still has clues that, she says, 00:03:27.617 --> 00:03:28.960 "Well, grandma got me this." 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:30.607 And she said the other day, 00:03:30.607 --> 00:03:32.187 "Mama, my underwear is too small now, 00:03:32.187 --> 00:03:33.627 "that's the one that grandma got me." 00:03:33.627 --> 00:03:36.735 And so even that I really just treasure 00:03:36.735 --> 00:03:38.470 and I keep wanting these conversations 00:03:38.470 --> 00:03:39.703 to continue to happen. 00:03:41.740 --> 00:03:44.480 - I wanna talk about the title of your book. 00:03:44.480 --> 00:03:47.980 Why did you name it "Notes on Grief?" 00:03:47.980 --> 00:03:50.293 Is there any, what did you mean by notes? 00:03:51.823 --> 00:03:55.123 - I think I kind of wanted to have a sense of, 00:03:56.160 --> 00:03:58.160 well, first of all, something incomplete 00:03:59.810 --> 00:04:02.973 and something, I guess maybe kind of ongoing, 00:04:03.910 --> 00:04:06.150 but because when I started writing it, 00:04:06.150 --> 00:04:08.400 it's not as though I had a particular structure 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:10.380 or that I knew what the hell I was doing really, 00:04:10.380 --> 00:04:13.580 I was just trying to find language, 00:04:13.580 --> 00:04:16.833 trying to make sense of what I was feeling, 00:04:18.354 --> 00:04:19.900 and I think calling it "Notes on Grief" 00:04:19.900 --> 00:04:21.460 was sort of, I think it was my way of trying 00:04:21.460 --> 00:04:26.370 to just, I guess, capture the feeling 00:04:27.220 --> 00:04:30.863 of something unfinished, 00:04:31.930 --> 00:04:33.280 in some ways even unformed. 00:04:34.260 --> 00:04:37.600 So in the way that I have a habit of taking notes 00:04:38.730 --> 00:04:40.410 about everything, about the world. 00:04:40.410 --> 00:04:42.300 So I used to do that in a little notebook, 00:04:42.300 --> 00:04:44.920 but since the advent of the iPhone, 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:46.330 I now do it on my notes app 00:04:47.901 --> 00:04:50.440 and it's quite random, I mean, just whatever, 00:04:50.440 --> 00:04:53.290 observations, thoughts, ideas. 00:04:53.290 --> 00:04:55.420 And I think maybe that's kind of the sense 00:04:55.420 --> 00:04:57.050 I wanted to get with this book as well, 00:04:57.050 --> 00:05:00.460 but it's not at all a finished thing. 00:05:00.460 --> 00:05:02.910 As in flat, I don't think grief is ever finished. 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:08.263 - Do you think that you will write more about your mother? 00:05:10.060 --> 00:05:12.490 - That's an interesting question, I've wanted too 00:05:12.490 --> 00:05:14.193 and I haven't been able to, yeah, 00:05:16.730 --> 00:05:19.223 But I think because writing is what I always, 00:05:20.190 --> 00:05:25.190 writing is what I used to try and make sense of my life. 00:05:25.200 --> 00:05:27.553 So I'm sure that I will at some point. 00:05:30.050 --> 00:05:32.560 - One of the things about the book 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:37.170 is you just really did not care what people thought 00:05:37.170 --> 00:05:39.300 of how you were grieving. 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:42.870 You were angry, sometimes you were biting when people 00:05:42.870 --> 00:05:46.520 and understandably, so, that's not a judgy statement, 00:05:46.520 --> 00:05:48.720 but, oh, he's in a better place. 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:50.860 Oh, you have these... 00:05:50.860 --> 00:05:55.460 All the platitudes that people say or think 00:05:55.460 --> 00:05:56.470 that you wanna hear 00:05:56.470 --> 00:06:01.470 and you weren't always polite in those situations. 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:06.720 And I wonder how friends and family have received the book 00:06:07.910 --> 00:06:10.090 that now maybe they have a better window 00:06:10.090 --> 00:06:11.723 into how you grieve. 00:06:15.050 --> 00:06:19.170 - It's interesting about just thinking of politeness 00:06:19.170 --> 00:06:20.403 in the face of grief. 00:06:23.250 --> 00:06:26.250 I don't think that one, I don't think, 00:06:26.250 --> 00:06:29.343 I think and I say this of course, 00:06:29.343 --> 00:06:31.513 only just learning it now because I'm in it, 00:06:31.513 --> 00:06:33.910 because the thing is that I'm as guilty 00:06:34.950 --> 00:06:37.380 as really everyone else 00:06:37.380 --> 00:06:41.490 in kind of the result into platitudes 00:06:41.490 --> 00:06:43.393 in the face of somebody's pain. 00:06:44.400 --> 00:06:47.930 And so I kind of understand how people then say things like, 00:06:47.930 --> 00:06:49.230 oh, he's in a better place 00:06:49.230 --> 00:06:52.393 or well, he's an angel watching over you. 00:06:54.260 --> 00:06:57.920 But in the midst of my pain, I found it just bearable. 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:00.160 And I also, in some ways found it too simple, 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:01.613 too easy, too deep. 00:07:03.867 --> 00:07:05.510 And so I've just get so angry, 00:07:05.510 --> 00:07:09.193 except I think, in a better and how would you know that? 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:15.280 Now, I'm kind of learning that. 00:07:15.280 --> 00:07:16.880 I mean, and even at the time, 00:07:16.880 --> 00:07:18.110 even in the middle of my anger, 00:07:18.110 --> 00:07:19.610 I knew that people meant well, 00:07:20.490 --> 00:07:22.767 people, I think death is such a... 00:07:24.550 --> 00:07:29.550 It's such an unknowable, such an unknown thing, 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:31.163 and it's so final, 00:07:32.060 --> 00:07:36.260 that I think we don't know how to deal with it in general. 00:07:36.260 --> 00:07:38.040 I think it's just really difficult 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:42.520 because in some ways to be alive is to be in denial of death 00:07:42.520 --> 00:07:43.590 in some ways. 00:07:43.590 --> 00:07:46.460 And so I think there's something about us human beings 00:07:46.460 --> 00:07:49.210 that we just, it's difficult to deal with. 00:07:49.210 --> 00:07:51.190 And I think that's why we result to platitudes 00:07:51.190 --> 00:07:53.490 and we result to euphemisms and talking about death, 00:07:53.490 --> 00:07:56.690 which increasingly I also don't like at all. 00:07:56.690 --> 00:08:00.790 So, I find myself feeling better when I just say died, 00:08:00.790 --> 00:08:03.410 they didn't pass on to a different existence, 00:08:03.410 --> 00:08:04.403 I don't, they died. 00:08:05.570 --> 00:08:07.940 And I think it's also my way of trying to force myself 00:08:07.940 --> 00:08:09.550 to acknowledge this thing that has happened. 00:08:09.550 --> 00:08:12.040 That's still difficult for me to acknowledge. 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:16.220 The people close to me, I think understand. 00:08:16.220 --> 00:08:19.473 I think, you also learn while grieving. 00:08:20.950 --> 00:08:21.917 You learn about love you. 00:08:21.917 --> 00:08:25.020 You learn about the people who love you. 00:08:25.020 --> 00:08:26.160 And sometimes you're surprised 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:28.587 that the people who you think love you, maybe not, 00:08:28.587 --> 00:08:30.540 and the people who you don't know care about you 00:08:30.540 --> 00:08:32.120 actually really do. 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:35.150 It's also been a very clarifying period for me. 00:08:35.150 --> 00:08:37.637 And so the people close to me kind of gets it, 00:08:37.637 --> 00:08:39.730 and I think reading the book, 00:08:39.730 --> 00:08:41.893 I had a few friends who sent me messages to say, 00:08:41.893 --> 00:08:43.153 "oh, I'm so sorry, 00:08:44.757 --> 00:08:46.627 "I know I'm guilty of saying this thing 00:08:46.627 --> 00:08:47.600 "that you called out." 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:48.700 And that made me feel bad, 00:08:48.700 --> 00:08:50.500 because it wasn't about calling out, 00:08:51.800 --> 00:08:53.350 because I just want it to be true 00:08:53.350 --> 00:08:55.340 about what I was feeling. 00:08:55.340 --> 00:08:56.700 And so I will then write back and say, 00:08:56.700 --> 00:08:58.830 no, I know you meant well. 00:08:58.830 --> 00:08:59.840 It annoyed me, it absent me, 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:04.273 but it's not really a personal, 00:09:06.750 --> 00:09:09.310 it's not like an indictment of the person. 00:09:09.310 --> 00:09:11.660 If anything, it's an indictment of this larger way 00:09:11.660 --> 00:09:13.990 that we deal with grief and death 00:09:13.990 --> 00:09:15.443 and mourning in our culture. 00:09:16.560 --> 00:09:19.160 - It didn't feel like a call-out, 00:09:19.160 --> 00:09:24.160 it felt like you were being honest and maybe articulating 00:09:26.060 --> 00:09:27.930 what other people feel, 00:09:27.930 --> 00:09:32.390 I had found on my own that it's just good to say, 00:09:32.390 --> 00:09:34.263 I'm sorry for your loss. 00:09:35.130 --> 00:09:37.740 And also give room for silence 00:09:39.290 --> 00:09:43.440 and not telling people it's going to be okay. 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:44.510 - Yeah. 00:09:44.510 --> 00:09:47.860 - And I think that it's uncomfortable 00:09:47.860 --> 00:09:51.010 for the other person to watch someone grieve 00:09:51.010 --> 00:09:54.250 because the instinct is to fix, 00:09:54.250 --> 00:09:58.763 instead of letting the person cry, vent, 00:10:00.310 --> 00:10:02.760 sitting there in silence. 00:10:02.760 --> 00:10:05.200 - I really love that about the silence, 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.003 giving room for silence. 00:10:07.003 --> 00:10:10.080 I think it's so true, but it's also, 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:11.040 in some ways, like you said, 00:10:11.040 --> 00:10:13.720 it's, I think silence can be very uncomfortable. 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:16.680 So I get that people want to fill up that silence. 00:10:16.680 --> 00:10:18.690 But sometimes, I just want to hear I'm sorry, 00:10:18.690 --> 00:10:21.320 and I just, and that's fine, 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:24.113 that's because nothing can fix this. 00:10:26.770 --> 00:10:29.140 - Did you find that you started writing, 00:10:29.140 --> 00:10:33.213 so you wouldn't forget memories of your father? 00:10:34.450 --> 00:10:37.720 And I'm curious about the timing of the book 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:41.033 because it was published pretty quickly. 00:10:42.470 --> 00:10:44.900 - I started writing it really, 00:10:44.900 --> 00:10:48.480 I think maybe days, I'm not even sure how accurate I am 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:51.280 because the whole period is just a blur now. 00:10:51.280 --> 00:10:53.870 I mean, I kind of remember very clearly 00:10:54.740 --> 00:10:57.580 hearing that my father had died. 00:10:57.580 --> 00:10:59.453 My brother saying that he's gone. 00:11:01.330 --> 00:11:04.340 And I really don't remember much else. 00:11:04.340 --> 00:11:07.630 I think maybe days after, I really just, it's all a blur, 00:11:07.630 --> 00:11:09.027 but I think I started in maybe like, 00:11:09.027 --> 00:11:13.690 I don't know a week maybe, two weeks, after my father died. 00:11:13.690 --> 00:11:16.850 And it was really, I wrote, 00:11:16.850 --> 00:11:19.420 I started writing because that's what I do. 00:11:19.420 --> 00:11:22.483 Because I always turn to writing to make sense of things. 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:25.400 And so I think it just seemed really natural 00:11:25.400 --> 00:11:27.450 that I would start writing. 00:11:27.450 --> 00:11:31.560 But I think sort of the decision to publish 00:11:32.520 --> 00:11:34.670 was something I made a bit later in the process, 00:11:34.670 --> 00:11:35.963 because I think when I started writing it, 00:11:35.963 --> 00:11:38.250 I was thinking, maybe I'll send it 00:11:38.250 --> 00:11:40.170 to my brothers and my sisters, 00:11:40.170 --> 00:11:42.930 because obviously it's something that's shared. 00:11:42.930 --> 00:11:44.646 But at some point I thought, 00:11:44.646 --> 00:11:45.780 I actually want this to be published. 00:11:45.780 --> 00:11:50.060 And I think that's where this idea of wanting to, 00:11:50.060 --> 00:11:53.770 it's like memorializing my father, 00:11:53.770 --> 00:11:55.440 just refusing to let go. 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:57.210 And also just wanting to tell the world, 00:11:57.210 --> 00:12:00.740 I wanted to tell the world that I had been so blessed 00:12:01.780 --> 00:12:05.623 to have been raised by this just lovely, decent man. 00:12:07.570 --> 00:12:11.430 - How is death treated in Nigeria? 00:12:11.430 --> 00:12:16.430 And I also wonder if people have that same uncomfortability 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:20.913 that we're talking about, 00:12:20.913 --> 00:12:22.940 are there any cultural differences 00:12:22.940 --> 00:12:25.583 between the U.S and Nigeria? 00:12:26.620 --> 00:12:29.813 - Yeah, I mean, certainly, I think in the U.S, 00:12:29.813 --> 00:12:33.020 I think there's more discomfort about death, right? 00:12:33.020 --> 00:12:35.400 I think, and in some ways it's that interesting thing 00:12:35.400 --> 00:12:38.030 about American culture that I sometimes wonder 00:12:38.030 --> 00:12:42.360 if it's also linked to that kind of youth worship. 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:44.040 In the American culture is so geared 00:12:44.040 --> 00:12:46.823 towards the youthfulness and youth and the young, 00:12:49.030 --> 00:12:50.310 and I'm sure you can tell from my tone, 00:12:50.310 --> 00:12:52.990 it's not something I necessarily admire. 00:12:52.990 --> 00:12:55.830 And in like, well, I should talk about Igbo culture 00:12:55.830 --> 00:12:58.120 because obviously Nigeria. 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:00.033 So Igbo culture, which is mine, 00:13:01.260 --> 00:13:04.430 age is revered, age is still, 00:13:04.430 --> 00:13:06.390 even though obviously everyone's become westernized 00:13:06.390 --> 00:13:09.177 and everyone, but I think age is still revered. 00:13:09.177 --> 00:13:11.113 And so because of that, 00:13:12.040 --> 00:13:14.760 I don't think there's as much for discomfort 00:13:14.760 --> 00:13:17.200 with just acknowledging death 00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:18.810 as the reason the U.S. 00:13:18.810 --> 00:13:20.720 And I think both can be, 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:23.760 I mean, I had trouble with both well, 00:13:23.760 --> 00:13:25.713 especially in the early months after my father died, 00:13:25.713 --> 00:13:30.560 because I sometimes feel that Nigerian friends or relatives 00:13:30.560 --> 00:13:33.393 or even acquaintances could be a bit too, 00:13:34.820 --> 00:13:36.370 maybe a bit too much of a fact. 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:43.370 I had a huge fight with a friend of families 00:13:43.370 --> 00:13:47.420 who no, actually, no, it wasn't my dad, it was my mom, 00:13:47.420 --> 00:13:49.150 who a few days after my mother died 00:13:49.150 --> 00:13:50.650 and I was just completely broken, 00:13:50.650 --> 00:13:52.460 I just would not see anyone, 00:13:52.460 --> 00:13:55.680 just, and he sends me a message to say, 00:13:55.680 --> 00:13:57.730 important people are coming to your house, 00:13:57.730 --> 00:14:00.103 you must come out and see them. 00:14:01.282 --> 00:14:03.532 And I remember thinking, my mother just died, 00:14:04.700 --> 00:14:06.550 I do not have to do anything, 00:14:06.550 --> 00:14:09.470 but that to me is a very Nigerian and this guy meant well, 00:14:09.470 --> 00:14:12.400 so his point was, you have the important, 00:14:12.400 --> 00:14:14.980 government dignitaries coming, you must come out, 00:14:14.980 --> 00:14:16.710 because that's a proper thing to do. 00:14:16.710 --> 00:14:17.880 And it's that kind of in Nigeria 00:14:17.880 --> 00:14:19.360 when your mother is gone, 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:23.030 it's happened, so you might as well come out and be a host, 00:14:23.030 --> 00:14:26.740 which I just did not get from American friends 00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:28.560 who were sending good wishes, 00:14:28.560 --> 00:14:32.114 I think, but also I felt that American friends 00:14:32.114 --> 00:14:34.281 were often more tentative. 00:14:35.587 --> 00:14:37.963 And so even that sometimes made me think, 00:14:38.810 --> 00:14:40.050 just say my mother died, 00:14:40.050 --> 00:14:45.050 don't say, I mean, this kind of resulting to euphemism 00:14:45.470 --> 00:14:47.893 and not saying it directly, yeah. 00:14:50.040 --> 00:14:54.540 - What's the response you've gotten from other readers, 00:14:55.740 --> 00:14:59.403 people who aren't in your family or acquaintance circle? 00:15:01.700 --> 00:15:02.950 - I should be very moved 00:15:03.880 --> 00:15:05.610 because honestly, one of the things I hope 00:15:05.610 --> 00:15:06.443 that this book would do 00:15:06.443 --> 00:15:08.870 would be to help other people grieving. 00:15:08.870 --> 00:15:12.450 Because I found it very comforting to read 00:15:12.450 --> 00:15:16.083 other people's honest accounts of grief. 00:15:17.082 --> 00:15:21.697 And I took a lot of, I don't know, strains from them. 00:15:22.740 --> 00:15:23.610 I went through a period 00:15:23.610 --> 00:15:26.140 of just wanting to read everything about grief 00:15:26.140 --> 00:15:28.310 and then went through a period of not wanting to read 00:15:28.310 --> 00:15:30.640 one word about death or grief. 00:15:30.640 --> 00:15:35.243 And when I was reading about grief, I found that the more, 00:15:37.130 --> 00:15:42.130 just really honest stark accounts, just really comforted me 00:15:42.143 --> 00:15:44.427 I just, I felt I'm not alone. 00:15:44.427 --> 00:15:47.913 And I think that's the most comfort one can get. 00:15:49.180 --> 00:15:52.170 So I've actually been really happy to hear 00:15:52.170 --> 00:15:56.940 from people who've said that it helped them 00:15:56.940 --> 00:15:58.840 and actually a friend of a friend, 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:03.840 so someone I don't knows, sent a message through my friend 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:08.443 to say that she lost her parents years ago, 00:16:09.780 --> 00:16:12.540 but reading this book suddenly gave her language 00:16:12.540 --> 00:16:13.880 to articulate how she had felt, 00:16:13.880 --> 00:16:15.027 and she hadn't been able to do that. 00:16:15.027 --> 00:16:16.750 And I was very moved by that. 00:16:17.980 --> 00:16:21.030 - It probably gave people, a lot of people permission 00:16:23.650 --> 00:16:26.423 that maybe they didn't think that they had, 00:16:28.210 --> 00:16:30.933 I have a five-year-old daughter also. 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:37.453 And do you feel like the industry 00:16:39.700 --> 00:16:44.700 or other outsiders have changed their view of you 00:16:47.880 --> 00:16:49.170 now that you're a mother, 00:16:49.170 --> 00:16:51.623 changed their view of you as a writer? 00:16:53.100 --> 00:16:54.880 In terms of expectations, 00:16:54.880 --> 00:16:58.920 or I'm almost reluctant to ask this question 00:16:58.920 --> 00:17:01.630 because it gets so gendered with mothers 00:17:01.630 --> 00:17:05.163 in talking about motherhood and their careers and writing, 00:17:06.610 --> 00:17:08.320 but if there's been any shift 00:17:08.320 --> 00:17:12.603 in how you have been perceived or treated. 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:15.640 - I think that's a really interesting question. 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:18.697 I feel like these are things we should talk about, Moore, 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:22.000 because mother who does affect women's lives 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:24.747 and I don't see where we should protect. 00:17:24.747 --> 00:17:26.500 And obviously I also understand 00:17:26.500 --> 00:17:28.290 what the potential drawbacks are 00:17:28.290 --> 00:17:31.210 because it's kind of it's, 00:17:31.210 --> 00:17:34.340 this is the thing that often is used to hold women back 00:17:34.340 --> 00:17:35.780 when they want to work outside the home. 00:17:35.780 --> 00:17:39.140 And then, so sometimes one wants to just ignore it 00:17:39.140 --> 00:17:43.490 so that it doesn't become a bigger problem than it is. 00:17:43.490 --> 00:17:45.483 But my view is that, 00:17:47.540 --> 00:17:50.010 motherhood just profoundly changes you forever. 00:17:50.010 --> 00:17:52.433 And how can you not change everything else? 00:17:53.320 --> 00:17:56.310 I think when I got, I remember when I got pregnant 00:17:58.414 --> 00:17:59.420 and actually before I got pregnant, 00:17:59.420 --> 00:18:02.490 I wasn't sure that, I've always loved children, 00:18:02.490 --> 00:18:04.300 I've always loved other people's children. 00:18:04.300 --> 00:18:07.650 So, I'm very much, I'm such an auntie, 00:18:07.650 --> 00:18:10.290 like I'm completing the business 00:18:10.290 --> 00:18:12.470 of all my nephews and nieces. 00:18:12.470 --> 00:18:13.590 But I remember thinking that 00:18:13.590 --> 00:18:16.350 my writing was so important to me that I wasn't sure 00:18:16.350 --> 00:18:18.807 that I could be the kind of mother that I wanted to be. 00:18:18.807 --> 00:18:22.110 And so that maybe I really had no business having children. 00:18:22.110 --> 00:18:23.510 That's what I used to think. 00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:26.336 Obviously now with my daughter, 00:18:26.336 --> 00:18:27.813 I cannot imagine life without her. 00:18:29.820 --> 00:18:32.080 But I also realized that things have changed, 00:18:32.080 --> 00:18:34.710 it's not just about the expectations and needs, 00:18:34.710 --> 00:18:36.410 it's also about my own, 00:18:36.410 --> 00:18:38.310 things have changed for me internally. 00:18:39.410 --> 00:18:43.067 I feel as like I lost two years of brain ability 00:18:45.840 --> 00:18:49.500 from pregnancy and I was just woozy 00:18:49.500 --> 00:18:50.560 the whole time I was pregnant. 00:18:50.560 --> 00:18:52.360 I felt like I couldn't think straight. 00:18:52.360 --> 00:18:53.960 I have the baby and breastfeeding, 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:55.850 everything was just very woozy and just, 00:18:55.850 --> 00:18:58.430 I just couldn't create, right? 00:18:58.430 --> 00:19:00.980 And it was such a hard time for me 00:19:00.980 --> 00:19:03.720 because I think I had convinced myself 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:05.540 that, of course, yes, you can do it all, 00:19:05.540 --> 00:19:07.630 you have the baby, 00:19:07.630 --> 00:19:10.550 and the next minute you're finishing the next novel, 00:19:10.550 --> 00:19:11.990 and it just wasn't happening. 00:19:11.990 --> 00:19:14.700 And I realized as well that the physicality of pregnancy 00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:18.253 had affected my creative output, it really had. 00:19:19.630 --> 00:19:23.280 So, it's the pregnancy, it's the early months 00:19:23.280 --> 00:19:25.470 when everything is new and strange, 00:19:25.470 --> 00:19:27.570 like my gosh, it's not latching on, 00:19:27.570 --> 00:19:29.783 and then I'm reading all of these books about pregnant, 00:19:29.783 --> 00:19:30.616 about mother who had been like, 00:19:30.616 --> 00:19:33.636 if you don't breastfeed, you'll be a terrible mother. 00:19:33.636 --> 00:19:36.630 And so it was such a difficult time for me. 00:19:36.630 --> 00:19:37.700 And it's also one of the reasons 00:19:37.700 --> 00:19:40.580 that I want to talk more about what, 00:19:40.580 --> 00:19:45.580 the ways in which women's bodies and what women's bodies do 00:19:45.760 --> 00:19:47.183 affect women's lives. 00:19:49.780 --> 00:19:54.780 And I also remember a man who is a writer saying to me, 00:19:56.942 --> 00:19:59.445 "Don't you feel bad that, how," 00:19:59.445 --> 00:20:00.278 and it was sort of like, 00:20:00.278 --> 00:20:01.797 "Oh, how terrible your pregnancy is, 00:20:01.797 --> 00:20:04.027 "sort of stealing writing time 00:20:04.027 --> 00:20:06.450 "and creative time away from you." 00:20:06.450 --> 00:20:08.880 And it's not as if what he said was false, 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:11.077 but somehow I just did not take it well. 00:20:11.077 --> 00:20:13.970 And I said, maybe it has, because one has to be honest, 00:20:13.970 --> 00:20:16.470 but at the same time, pregnancy and childbirth 00:20:16.470 --> 00:20:19.660 has opened me up to so many emotions. 00:20:19.660 --> 00:20:24.660 So many, there's a new ability to understand human gains 00:20:26.140 --> 00:20:28.050 that actually, I feel really lucky and blessed to have. 00:20:28.050 --> 00:20:29.640 And that in fact, in the end, 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:31.587 I think we end with creativity. 00:20:31.587 --> 00:20:33.180 So, it was sort of my way of saying, 00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:36.690 well, yeah, so I lost two years, so you can't get pregnant, 00:20:36.690 --> 00:20:37.523 but guess what? 00:20:37.523 --> 00:20:40.858 My pregnancy gave me material, thank you very much. 00:20:40.858 --> 00:20:43.600 (Chimamanda laughs) 00:20:43.600 --> 00:20:45.373 But I also think, I mean, I don't know about, 00:20:45.373 --> 00:20:47.640 I mean, I think my publishers are still sort of, 00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:49.703 I don't know that much change with that, 00:20:52.508 --> 00:20:56.670 I think, I'm just, I've become a very slow writer. 00:20:56.670 --> 00:20:58.480 I find it frustrating. 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:00.420 I'm not sure how much of that 00:21:01.270 --> 00:21:03.113 I can still attribute to my child. 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:07.490 I think I'm just slower now, I just am, 00:21:07.490 --> 00:21:12.460 but I can say sure that the physicality of having a child, 00:21:12.460 --> 00:21:14.460 it's not even about other people's expectations, 00:21:14.460 --> 00:21:16.100 it's about what it did for me internally 00:21:16.100 --> 00:21:18.600 and make creative space, and that was significant. 00:21:20.320 --> 00:21:22.090 - During the pandemic, 00:21:22.090 --> 00:21:27.090 my husband would create these little Ted Talk sessions 00:21:28.450 --> 00:21:30.550 with our teenage daughters. 00:21:30.550 --> 00:21:32.453 And one of them was on you. 00:21:33.300 --> 00:21:34.200 - Really? - Yeah. 00:21:36.460 --> 00:21:39.570 I'm not a part of it, that's their thing, 00:21:39.570 --> 00:21:43.113 which I think is great in talking about feminism. 00:21:44.060 --> 00:21:49.060 And where do you, there's a certain commodification 00:21:49.310 --> 00:21:52.793 that I think is happening with feminism right now, 00:21:54.280 --> 00:21:57.770 although it's also being more widely embraced, 00:21:57.770 --> 00:22:02.770 what do you make of where feminism as an ideology 00:22:04.470 --> 00:22:06.983 and its popularity stands right now? 00:22:08.580 --> 00:22:13.580 - I feel it's, and I hear you about both. 00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:16.710 I think it's not quite, 00:22:16.710 --> 00:22:18.693 I mean, there is of course a kind of, 00:22:19.860 --> 00:22:23.090 I guess the cool elements to an extent 00:22:23.090 --> 00:22:25.583 so that if you're a famous celebrity, 00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:30.230 it's kind of cool I think, 00:22:30.230 --> 00:22:32.373 to maybe wear T-shirt that says feminist. 00:22:33.340 --> 00:22:36.323 But I sometimes, I do think that we may be, 00:22:38.320 --> 00:22:40.193 that we over emphasis, 00:22:44.530 --> 00:22:48.993 I think we give it more power than it deserves. 00:22:49.890 --> 00:22:52.763 I guess my point is that there's still in the real world, 00:22:54.430 --> 00:22:57.220 an incredible amount of resistance 00:22:58.270 --> 00:23:00.950 and backlash to the idea of feminism, 00:23:00.950 --> 00:23:02.210 just fundamentally the idea 00:23:02.210 --> 00:23:05.150 that women are equal human beings, there's still a lot. 00:23:05.150 --> 00:23:06.993 I know, for example, how, 00:23:07.840 --> 00:23:10.713 when I put on quote came-out as feminist, 00:23:12.170 --> 00:23:14.280 my perception, particularly in Nigeria changed. 00:23:14.280 --> 00:23:17.020 So I had been this writer who, we love her books 00:23:17.020 --> 00:23:18.810 and she's, and then the minute 00:23:18.810 --> 00:23:20.060 I start talking about feminism, 00:23:20.060 --> 00:23:22.183 I become what they call controversial. 00:23:23.550 --> 00:23:26.330 And really when you sit back and think about it, 00:23:26.330 --> 00:23:29.230 I'm thinking the only thing that changed 00:23:29.230 --> 00:23:30.597 is that I gave a Ted Talk saying 00:23:30.597 --> 00:23:32.250 that we should all be feminists. 00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:34.420 And suddenly everything, 00:23:34.420 --> 00:23:38.050 in some ways I'm now covered as this controversial figure. 00:23:38.050 --> 00:23:42.220 And so I like to joke and say that if I take a sip of water, 00:23:42.220 --> 00:23:44.267 somebody in the Nigerian press will say, 00:23:44.267 --> 00:23:46.940 "She'd sip water like a feminist." 00:23:46.940 --> 00:23:48.180 And then lots of people will be like, 00:23:48.180 --> 00:23:50.650 feminists are terrible, they want to kill men, 00:23:50.650 --> 00:23:52.900 they, and I've been accused of things 00:23:52.900 --> 00:23:54.810 like destroying marriages, 00:23:54.810 --> 00:23:56.600 because they say young girls listen to her, 00:23:56.600 --> 00:23:59.020 and then they don't want to get married. 00:23:59.020 --> 00:24:01.210 And I've been at the airport where parents come to me 00:24:01.210 --> 00:24:02.616 and say, "My daughter loves you 00:24:02.616 --> 00:24:03.947 "and I'm very worried about that, 00:24:03.947 --> 00:24:06.440 "'cause I'm worried that she'll never get married." 00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:08.080 I mean, it's-- 00:24:08.080 --> 00:24:10.440 - Well, like, what do you say when someone comes up to you 00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:12.450 and says something like that? 00:24:12.450 --> 00:24:15.293 - Oh, I actually, usually, if I'm in a good mood, 00:24:16.550 --> 00:24:18.170 I'm already happy to engage. 00:24:18.170 --> 00:24:19.300 Because there's a part of me 00:24:19.300 --> 00:24:21.840 that just, I want to convince people. 00:24:21.840 --> 00:24:24.730 So I'll say, no, I think you've misunderstood. 00:24:24.730 --> 00:24:27.390 And I'll say, well, why do you think she can't get married? 00:24:27.390 --> 00:24:28.660 And then I'll say things like, 00:24:28.660 --> 00:24:30.510 let me tell you what feminism means. 00:24:30.510 --> 00:24:32.760 Do you want your daughter to have access to education? 00:24:32.760 --> 00:24:33.940 Do you want your daughter's clutches 00:24:33.940 --> 00:24:36.590 to be cut off forceful and disgustingly 00:24:36.590 --> 00:24:38.630 in the name of FGM? 00:24:38.630 --> 00:24:39.790 Do you want her to have a choice 00:24:39.790 --> 00:24:41.330 to leave a marriage that's bad? 00:24:41.330 --> 00:24:43.920 Do you want her to have access to a job 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:46.410 that she deserves and she's qualified for? 00:24:46.410 --> 00:24:48.300 Do you want her boss to grab her breast 00:24:48.300 --> 00:24:49.950 when she walks into his office? 00:24:49.950 --> 00:24:52.040 I mean, I sort of list things. 00:24:52.040 --> 00:24:53.480 Do you want her to be greeted 00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:55.542 when she walks into a restaurant with a man? 00:24:55.542 --> 00:24:56.620 Do you want her to be allowed 00:24:56.620 --> 00:24:58.020 to walk into a restaurant alone? 00:24:58.020 --> 00:25:00.260 Because actually in this country, in Legos, 00:25:00.260 --> 00:25:02.710 which is so cosmopolitan, there're parts of Legos, 00:25:02.710 --> 00:25:05.350 where you still cannot walk into a bar, 00:25:05.350 --> 00:25:07.752 if you don't have a man with you. 00:25:07.752 --> 00:25:08.755 And so, I say things like that, 00:25:08.755 --> 00:25:10.817 and suddenly they're like, well, yes, but it's just that, 00:25:10.817 --> 00:25:14.090 and often they create a boogeyman, 00:25:14.090 --> 00:25:16.130 they say, but you know that all these other feminists 00:25:16.130 --> 00:25:19.160 that say that we should, that men should be killed. 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:22.000 And I'm thinking, no, nobody actually says that. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:23.550 And even if somebody did, 00:25:23.550 --> 00:25:27.450 feminism seems to be the only sort of justice movement, 00:25:27.450 --> 00:25:28.950 which is what I like to call it, 00:25:28.950 --> 00:25:30.900 where we pick up a few extremes 00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:34.150 and we then try to pretend that they represent the whole. 00:25:34.150 --> 00:25:35.990 So that happened actually quit a bit. 00:25:35.990 --> 00:25:38.230 And then, I meet young women who say things to me 00:25:38.230 --> 00:25:40.200 like, oh, I went out on a date 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:42.380 and then I have an opinion that's stronger 00:25:42.380 --> 00:25:43.213 and then the guy says to me, 00:25:43.213 --> 00:25:44.046 you must be follow of Chimamanda. 00:25:44.046 --> 00:25:47.986 And that was the end of the date, it's so... 00:25:47.986 --> 00:25:50.986 (Chimamanda laughs) 00:25:52.273 --> 00:25:53.148 Oh, it's actually, 00:25:53.148 --> 00:25:54.147 and then I meet people and people are like, 00:25:54.147 --> 00:25:57.860 oh, I'm surprised, I'm so surprised that you are nice. 00:25:57.860 --> 00:25:59.150 I'm like why wouldn't? 00:25:59.150 --> 00:26:01.400 And they're like, because you're a feminist. 00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:02.750 So there's just so much. 00:26:02.750 --> 00:26:05.563 And I find that, and sometimes it's exhausting. 00:26:06.510 --> 00:26:08.420 But then on the other hand, I keep thinking to myself, 00:26:08.420 --> 00:26:09.360 if it's making a difference 00:26:09.360 --> 00:26:11.340 for one young woman in this country, 00:26:11.340 --> 00:26:13.400 I'm going to keep talking about it. 00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:16.260 And I feel as though they're young women now in this country 00:26:16.260 --> 00:26:17.877 who have language and who have more confidence 00:26:17.877 --> 00:26:19.620 and who most of all know that they're not alone. 00:26:19.620 --> 00:26:22.870 I was actually talking to a woman in Germany, 00:26:22.870 --> 00:26:25.690 she's Nigerian, and she said to me, 00:26:25.690 --> 00:26:28.730 she grew up in a very traditional household. 00:26:28.730 --> 00:26:30.670 She said her father had dinner. 00:26:30.670 --> 00:26:31.503 They would have conversations, 00:26:31.503 --> 00:26:32.977 her father would ask her first brother, 00:26:32.977 --> 00:26:34.580 do you have anything to say? 00:26:34.580 --> 00:26:36.410 Second brother, do you have anything to say? 00:26:36.410 --> 00:26:37.600 Conversation is over. 00:26:37.600 --> 00:26:40.690 And they're three sisters, they just did not matter. 00:26:40.690 --> 00:26:44.510 And she says that at the time, she knew something was wrong, 00:26:44.510 --> 00:26:46.090 but she did not know the name for it. 00:26:46.090 --> 00:26:48.327 And she says, "So I listened to your Ted Talk, 00:26:48.327 --> 00:26:49.817 "and I was like, oh, so that's what it is. 00:26:49.817 --> 00:26:53.800 "That's your name for all of the issues I have with my dad." 00:26:53.800 --> 00:26:54.980 And just hearing that, 00:26:54.980 --> 00:26:57.000 which she just told me about a week ago, 00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:00.060 just, I felt so, I don't know, 00:27:00.060 --> 00:27:05.060 it's that thing where you think, my life's work, right? 00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:09.880 I'm like, this young woman suddenly doesn't feel as alone 00:27:09.880 --> 00:27:10.713 because suddenly she's like, 00:27:10.713 --> 00:27:13.680 oh, this thing actually has validity 00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:15.380 in this feelings that I have, 00:27:15.380 --> 00:27:18.610 these objections that I have to my being reduced 00:27:20.030 --> 00:27:21.990 because I'm a girl. 00:27:21.990 --> 00:27:24.821 So yeah, I mean, yeah, I think I've rambled for a bit-- 00:27:24.821 --> 00:27:28.223 - Yeah, so this is another example of giving permission. 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:32.780 - Yes, and that makes me so happy. 00:27:32.780 --> 00:27:35.020 She really, I mean, just hearing her say that, 00:27:35.020 --> 00:27:36.133 just made me so happy. 00:27:38.220 --> 00:27:41.750 - This year, you also published a lengthy essay 00:27:41.750 --> 00:27:44.950 on your website about the riff between you 00:27:44.950 --> 00:27:46.980 and two other Nigerian writers 00:27:46.980 --> 00:27:49.890 and accusations that you're anti-trans, 00:27:49.890 --> 00:27:52.410 oppressing queer people. 00:27:52.410 --> 00:27:56.800 What has been the fallout since that essay was published? 00:27:56.800 --> 00:28:00.683 And where do things stand? 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:05.810 - Oh, the fallout, I guess the fallout, 00:28:05.810 --> 00:28:06.643 I guess the fallout, I mean, 00:28:06.643 --> 00:28:08.280 I should say that one of the things that's good, 00:28:08.280 --> 00:28:10.530 but I think for me at least, is that I don't criticize, 00:28:10.530 --> 00:28:12.730 I'm not on social media, I'm not on Twitter, 00:28:13.650 --> 00:28:15.640 and it's a decision I made years ago 00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:18.299 because I just don't think it would work for me, 00:28:18.299 --> 00:28:20.882 because I'm not a person who... 00:28:22.196 --> 00:28:24.774 Because yeah, I mean, it just wouldn't work for me. 00:28:24.774 --> 00:28:26.380 So I think because of that, I don't, I cannot, 00:28:26.380 --> 00:28:28.030 I mean, I know obviously that 00:28:30.390 --> 00:28:31.470 it was widely read, widely discussed, 00:28:31.470 --> 00:28:34.820 there're people for, there're people against, 00:28:34.820 --> 00:28:38.950 and you know honestly, I have absolutely no regrets. 00:28:38.950 --> 00:28:41.710 I would completely write that again today. 00:28:41.710 --> 00:28:44.830 And it's because, and I should also say 00:28:44.830 --> 00:28:47.450 that I think it's a consequence of grieving. 00:28:47.450 --> 00:28:49.200 That I suddenly just that I do not have time 00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:50.210 for rubbish anymore, 00:28:50.210 --> 00:28:52.810 just my patience for nonsense is gone. 00:28:52.810 --> 00:28:57.390 And I just feel like that the things that are wrong, 00:28:57.390 --> 00:29:00.360 that one should be able to call-out as wrong. 00:29:00.360 --> 00:29:02.502 And there's something, there's a larger problem, I think, 00:29:02.502 --> 00:29:03.570 that I feel very strongly about, 00:29:03.570 --> 00:29:06.326 which is, I think that there's a thing 00:29:06.326 --> 00:29:08.740 that's happening on the left in the U.S, 00:29:08.740 --> 00:29:11.080 and I think it's being transferred, it's being, 00:29:11.080 --> 00:29:16.080 kind of in the way that America sort of exports everything 00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:19.270 and the rest of the world, just greedily imports everything 00:29:19.270 --> 00:29:21.300 that even this discourse is not being exported 00:29:21.300 --> 00:29:23.140 to Europe, to Africa, 00:29:23.140 --> 00:29:25.800 where this is also toxic of language, 00:29:25.800 --> 00:29:27.300 you have to say something in particular 00:29:27.300 --> 00:29:28.890 when you cannot question, 00:29:28.890 --> 00:29:31.280 and particularly if you're a woman. 00:29:31.280 --> 00:29:34.663 And so I'm a person who I've always asked questions, 00:29:35.717 --> 00:29:37.500 that's the person that I am. 00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:39.480 And if I don't get answers that make sense to me, 00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:41.280 I will not accept it. 00:29:41.280 --> 00:29:44.340 And so the problem really is, 00:29:44.340 --> 00:29:45.650 and in some ways it was hurtful 00:29:45.650 --> 00:29:49.740 because in Nigeria, I'm actually often accused 00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:54.477 of, as the parent and other parents of a young person said, 00:29:54.477 --> 00:29:57.807 "You're responsible for encouraging gay people, 00:29:57.807 --> 00:29:58.927 "that is why so many young people 00:29:58.927 --> 00:30:00.547 "are coming out as gay in this country 00:30:00.547 --> 00:30:02.870 "cause you're encouraging them." 00:30:02.870 --> 00:30:04.430 To which I said, 00:30:04.430 --> 00:30:06.510 that's something that I will wear with pride. 00:30:06.510 --> 00:30:09.780 The point being, I'm known, 00:30:09.780 --> 00:30:12.970 and I, and it's something that I'm very proud of, 00:30:12.970 --> 00:30:14.960 to speak out for gay Nigerian citizens. 00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:19.033 This is a country where it's actually illegal to be gay. 00:30:20.600 --> 00:30:21.946 And so somehow to, 00:30:21.946 --> 00:30:24.530 because I have rejected a second language 00:30:24.530 --> 00:30:26.140 about transgender ideology 00:30:26.140 --> 00:30:28.313 and I continue to reject that language. 00:30:29.170 --> 00:30:31.740 I just feel like, one cannot then say to me 00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:35.210 that I am anti-LGBTQI people? 00:30:35.210 --> 00:30:36.143 Because I'm not. 00:30:38.410 --> 00:30:40.140 but I'm just not going to use language 00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:42.040 that doesn't make sense to me, and I feel-- 00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:45.770 - And what language are you rejecting? 00:30:45.770 --> 00:30:46.830 - I'm rejecting the language, 00:30:46.830 --> 00:30:49.010 so if I see that I think that there's a difference 00:30:49.010 --> 00:30:51.620 between trans-women and women that are born female, 00:30:51.620 --> 00:30:53.650 and I'm told that you cannot see that, 00:30:53.650 --> 00:30:54.923 I just find it absurd. 00:30:56.700 --> 00:30:59.710 Why do we have to deny difference 00:30:59.710 --> 00:31:01.560 in the name of inclusiveness? 00:31:01.560 --> 00:31:03.440 Actually the whole point of inclusiveness is difference. 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:05.320 And part of the reason that I reject that, 00:31:05.320 --> 00:31:09.060 is it just makes me think, it's like saying I'm color blind. 00:31:09.060 --> 00:31:11.410 I just feel like it makes no sense. 00:31:11.410 --> 00:31:14.920 And it makes it difficult to talk about the particular needs 00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:16.380 of each group. 00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:17.893 The health needs of trans-women 00:31:17.893 --> 00:31:20.130 are fairly different from the health needs of women 00:31:20.130 --> 00:31:21.520 who are born female. 00:31:21.520 --> 00:31:23.410 So if we're going to pretend that there's no difference, 00:31:23.410 --> 00:31:25.470 how do we talk about that? 00:31:25.470 --> 00:31:30.470 I mean, just, okay, I think it was sort of new to me too. 00:31:31.550 --> 00:31:34.333 So anyway, the question was what's the fallout. 00:31:36.419 --> 00:31:39.410 I don't, I mean, the fallout is that there are people who, 00:31:39.410 --> 00:31:40.870 there's a woman who was supposed to interview me 00:31:40.870 --> 00:31:41.703 and then she says, 00:31:41.703 --> 00:31:43.047 "Oh no, the magazine council, 00:31:43.047 --> 00:31:44.590 "because they see you're anti-trans." 00:31:44.590 --> 00:31:46.480 And I was just like, that's fine. 00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:49.204 The fallout is that I'm giving a talk in South Africa, 00:31:49.204 --> 00:31:52.080 and then I hear that the people 00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:54.090 are being very insulting online 00:31:54.090 --> 00:31:57.090 and saying they'll boycott it, and that's also fine. 00:31:57.090 --> 00:31:58.533 I mean, I really think that, 00:31:59.570 --> 00:32:02.160 I don't need to be listened to by everyone, right? 00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:03.770 I don't, and we don't have to agree. 00:32:03.770 --> 00:32:07.790 And I just feel like that there's something lucky 00:32:07.790 --> 00:32:09.393 and it's not even compassion. 00:32:11.660 --> 00:32:14.823 There's a kind of good faith lacking. 00:32:16.918 --> 00:32:18.600 I just find it so, I mean, 00:32:18.600 --> 00:32:21.613 to be told that I am killing trans-women. 00:32:22.450 --> 00:32:26.800 I mean, I just find, it's just ridiculous. 00:32:29.560 --> 00:32:31.403 And I kind of think that, 00:32:33.460 --> 00:32:35.560 I sometimes think that there are a lot of people 00:32:35.560 --> 00:32:38.020 who could speak out who are not speaking out. 00:32:38.020 --> 00:32:40.592 And so there's a culture of fear, 00:32:40.592 --> 00:32:42.840 and I think it's so unhealthy for everything. 00:32:42.840 --> 00:32:45.510 And it's often people who are on the same side, 00:32:45.510 --> 00:32:48.100 so this is actually my tribe, 00:32:48.100 --> 00:32:51.590 but then it's the people who are supposed to be with you, 00:32:51.590 --> 00:32:53.680 who are your tribe, that turn around 00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.090 and just make very easy targets of you. 00:32:56.090 --> 00:32:58.940 I mean, the end, actually leave the people 00:32:58.940 --> 00:33:02.393 who I in fact, the actual trans-phobic people, 00:33:03.310 --> 00:33:05.300 nobody talks about that. 00:33:05.300 --> 00:33:07.820 But instead it's women who are feminists, 00:33:07.820 --> 00:33:12.530 who actually are all for inclusivity and difference 00:33:12.530 --> 00:33:15.410 and who then turned out to be the monsters, 00:33:15.410 --> 00:33:16.610 and I just think, 00:33:16.610 --> 00:33:19.010 I think there's a lot of misogyny there as well. 00:33:20.460 --> 00:33:22.893 - You're pretty critical of celebrity culture. 00:33:25.070 --> 00:33:30.070 And no, okay. - I don't. 00:33:31.433 --> 00:33:32.266 I don't think, I mean, 00:33:32.266 --> 00:33:34.350 I guess it depends on what that means though. 00:33:35.670 --> 00:33:40.670 - Well maybe the way social media plays with it? 00:33:48.820 --> 00:33:52.490 I could be wrong, so I can take-- 00:33:52.490 --> 00:33:54.420 - I actually think a lot about celebs. 00:33:54.420 --> 00:33:57.473 I mean, it's really not a thing that I spent. 00:33:58.312 --> 00:34:00.199 I mean, I think it's being, 00:34:00.199 --> 00:34:01.640 I think celebrity culture is part of, 00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:05.670 is not something I really pay a lot of attention. 00:34:05.670 --> 00:34:07.470 That's it, to be honest. 00:34:07.470 --> 00:34:10.960 - You said you made a decision not to be on Twitter 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:13.118 because it's not for you. 00:34:13.118 --> 00:34:13.951 - Yeah. 00:34:14.810 --> 00:34:18.090 - What's your relationship with other, 00:34:18.090 --> 00:34:21.490 do you have relationship with other social media platforms? 00:34:21.490 --> 00:34:22.583 - I have Instagram, 00:34:25.100 --> 00:34:28.115 which I like because I think it appeals to vanity 00:34:28.115 --> 00:34:31.100 and I have a very healthy day inside. 00:34:31.100 --> 00:34:32.487 Actually the reason I started doing Instagram 00:34:32.487 --> 00:34:36.970 and also Facebook, but I don't really do it myself, 00:34:36.970 --> 00:34:38.950 it's not all the time. 00:34:38.950 --> 00:34:40.460 But it's also because I realized 00:34:40.460 --> 00:34:42.630 that if you do not tell, 00:34:42.630 --> 00:34:45.260 to a certain extent social media is here to stay, 00:34:45.260 --> 00:34:46.780 it's, this is it, right? 00:34:46.780 --> 00:34:48.514 This is our reality. 00:34:48.514 --> 00:34:50.030 And there's a sense 00:34:50.030 --> 00:34:54.110 in which if you completely remove yourself from it, 00:34:54.110 --> 00:34:55.740 what you're doing is you're opening the door 00:34:55.740 --> 00:34:58.150 for other people to tell your story. 00:34:58.150 --> 00:35:03.150 So kind of participating in Facebook and Instagram, 00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:04.910 putting up things that I'm doing, 00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:08.693 I just kind of, I think it's a way of, 00:35:09.720 --> 00:35:11.070 yeah, telling my own story. 00:35:12.660 --> 00:35:14.060 So, yes, that I do, 00:35:14.060 --> 00:35:16.470 but I think Twitter is a different platform. 00:35:16.470 --> 00:35:18.750 - So do you feel like you have more control 00:35:18.750 --> 00:35:22.150 over messaging in Instagram, 00:35:22.150 --> 00:35:24.460 or maybe it's just not the same kind of feedback 00:35:24.460 --> 00:35:28.630 that you might get it on Twitter? 00:35:28.630 --> 00:35:29.640 - Yeah, I think Twitter has, 00:35:29.640 --> 00:35:31.484 there's a lot more performativity, 00:35:31.484 --> 00:35:36.484 there's a lot more, 00:35:37.540 --> 00:35:39.010 you're supposed to be having conversations 00:35:39.010 --> 00:35:42.370 in this very short snippets of words 00:35:42.370 --> 00:35:46.080 and it's invariably going to be about people 00:35:47.070 --> 00:35:49.200 kind of trying to one-up one another. 00:35:49.200 --> 00:35:52.930 And it just, I don't see how necessarily 00:35:52.930 --> 00:35:55.080 one can tell one story through that medium, 00:35:55.930 --> 00:35:57.850 in a way that sort of really, 00:35:57.850 --> 00:35:59.867 it's not about, so Facebook and Instagram, 00:35:59.867 --> 00:36:02.400 and putting up things that I'm doing, right? 00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:06.010 So you kind of see what I'm doing from my own point of view. 00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:08.770 So in a way, it's just really 00:36:08.770 --> 00:36:10.710 the ability to tell one's own story. 00:36:10.710 --> 00:36:13.725 I don't want to be on Twitter because I don't want to tweet. 00:36:13.725 --> 00:36:17.350 (Chimamanda laughs) 00:36:17.350 --> 00:36:20.623 - What are you doing for joy? 00:36:24.970 --> 00:36:27.263 - Family and friends, 00:36:28.622 --> 00:36:33.622 and also really learning to let myself feel what I'm feeling 00:36:36.270 --> 00:36:37.790 and in a strange way, 00:36:37.790 --> 00:36:39.990 it might not often actually results in tears, 00:36:39.990 --> 00:36:43.544 but I think ultimately it's a joyful thing. 00:36:43.544 --> 00:36:46.173 And it's still hard for me because, yeah. 00:36:48.860 --> 00:36:50.396 So yeah, so family, friends, 00:36:50.396 --> 00:36:52.993 learning to just let myself feel what I'm feeling. 00:36:54.740 --> 00:36:58.540 - What stories or writers are you reading right now 00:36:58.540 --> 00:36:59.943 or who is exciting you? 00:37:02.938 --> 00:37:03.860 - What am I reading now? 00:37:03.860 --> 00:37:08.860 I'm reading lots of things. 00:37:08.930 --> 00:37:10.053 I'm re-reading a lot of Holy Shrinker 00:37:10.053 --> 00:37:14.363 because I'm writing a piece about him, his recent book. 00:37:15.720 --> 00:37:16.740 Trying to, see every time 00:37:16.740 --> 00:37:18.540 I'm asked what I'm reading I forget. 00:37:21.110 --> 00:37:26.110 Well, here we have "Collected Poems of Audre Lorde" 00:37:26.554 --> 00:37:28.480 - Audre Lorde. 00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:31.570 - Yes, and, this I just started reading, 00:37:31.570 --> 00:37:34.960 it's a history book about Nigeria, 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:37.863 then I'm reading showing translators book again. 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:42.374 But really what you think about, 00:37:42.374 --> 00:37:46.300 I'm reading because I'm trying to write fiction, 00:37:46.300 --> 00:37:47.640 I'm reading a lot of poetry. 00:37:47.640 --> 00:37:50.730 I read a lot of poetry when I'm writing fiction, 00:37:50.730 --> 00:37:52.430 because I don't like to read fiction 00:37:52.430 --> 00:37:53.910 when I'm writing fiction, 00:37:53.910 --> 00:37:56.840 because I'm terrified that I will start 00:37:56.840 --> 00:37:58.990 to sound like whoever I'm write, or reading, 00:37:58.990 --> 00:38:01.020 especially if I like who I'm reading. 00:38:01.020 --> 00:38:02.540 So I'm just reading a lot of poetry, 00:38:02.540 --> 00:38:05.630 just actually reading this book by me like Alexander 00:38:05.630 --> 00:38:07.917 called "Birthplace with Various Stones." 00:38:10.610 --> 00:38:12.760 Also reading this essay collection, 00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:15.430 that's edited the Tracy K. Smith and John Freeman. 00:38:15.430 --> 00:38:18.220 That's called as a "Revolution outside my Love." 00:38:18.220 --> 00:38:20.690 It's just a bunch of essays that are actually quite good. 00:38:20.690 --> 00:38:23.130 So I just, I think in general, I just, 00:38:23.130 --> 00:38:25.510 I read too many things at the same time 00:38:26.522 --> 00:38:27.355 and this period 00:38:27.355 --> 00:38:29.680 that's being just emotionally difficult for me 00:38:29.680 --> 00:38:34.550 there're times when it's hard for me to escape in the book, 00:38:34.550 --> 00:38:39.220 because, so then I just find myself reading. 00:38:39.220 --> 00:38:40.657 I read a bit of this, I read a bit of that. 00:38:40.657 --> 00:38:44.100 I'm just switching things off like him, so that's happened, 00:38:44.100 --> 00:38:48.713 that's actually been happening much more since last June, 00:38:50.336 --> 00:38:52.243 and it's not necessarily a good thing. 00:38:53.870 --> 00:38:56.100 - Can you tell us anything about the novel 00:38:56.100 --> 00:38:57.350 you're working on? 00:38:57.350 --> 00:38:58.183 - No. 00:38:58.183 --> 00:39:02.600 - Okay, when will it possibly be out? 00:39:02.600 --> 00:39:03.940 And I think there's no writer, 00:39:03.940 --> 00:39:05.290 so you may not have a date. 00:39:06.236 --> 00:39:07.069 (Chimamanda laughs) 00:39:07.069 --> 00:39:10.295 - No, I cannot, I mean, I'm so superstitious, 00:39:10.295 --> 00:39:12.560 and was talking about being a slow writer, 00:39:12.560 --> 00:39:15.570 I really am, it frustrates me to no end 00:39:17.129 --> 00:39:19.530 and so even talking about process 00:39:19.530 --> 00:39:21.360 can sometimes make me very panicky 00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:23.151 because I'm thinking, 00:39:23.151 --> 00:39:25.070 all right, you're talking about the process, are you okay? 00:39:25.070 --> 00:39:26.190 That means you're not going to be able to write 00:39:26.190 --> 00:39:27.300 for the next week. 00:39:27.300 --> 00:39:29.850 Nothing will work, so then I get very superstitious 00:39:31.470 --> 00:39:32.740 and then I missed when I was younger 00:39:32.740 --> 00:39:34.858 when I was just so, I mean, it was just sort of, 00:39:34.858 --> 00:39:36.600 I just couldn't wait to have free times 00:39:36.600 --> 00:39:37.433 so that I could write. 00:39:37.433 --> 00:39:40.397 And now, now I have all this freedom, I'm sitting here, 00:39:40.397 --> 00:39:41.640 my bloody study and just nothing has happened, 00:39:41.640 --> 00:39:43.430 and it's just the most... 00:39:44.640 --> 00:39:47.480 - What is your writing process? 00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:52.480 Is it silence, solitude, music? 00:39:52.686 --> 00:39:54.670 - No, no, it's certainly silence. 00:39:54.670 --> 00:39:59.330 Not music, when I'm writing music is noise to me. 00:39:59.330 --> 00:40:02.660 I need silence, I need solitude also space. 00:40:02.660 --> 00:40:07.290 So it's being alone in the house. 00:40:07.290 --> 00:40:09.970 Just feed something in me. 00:40:09.970 --> 00:40:14.617 And even if everyone is quiet, I still know I'm not alone 00:40:14.617 --> 00:40:16.100 and that gets in the way. 00:40:16.100 --> 00:40:19.597 So not only do I need the solitude I also just need, 00:40:19.597 --> 00:40:24.200 and I just need to know that there're empty rooms around me 00:40:24.200 --> 00:40:25.810 and that nobody is in them. 00:40:25.810 --> 00:40:30.300 But I don't really have like a, I don't have a set time, 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:32.950 I wake up by eight and I'm at my desk 00:40:32.950 --> 00:40:34.690 and I wish I did, but I don't. 00:40:34.690 --> 00:40:38.650 So I'm just kind of walking when I can, when it happens. 00:40:38.650 --> 00:40:40.140 And then when it's not happening 00:40:40.140 --> 00:40:43.523 I'm reading hoping that wards will come to me. 00:40:45.110 --> 00:40:48.360 - I teach creative non-fiction to MFA students 00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:51.190 at Northwestern and class starts next week. 00:40:51.190 --> 00:40:52.900 And like I did last year, 00:40:52.900 --> 00:40:54.090 the first day of class, 00:40:54.090 --> 00:40:59.090 I also share a Ted Talk from you about the singular story. 00:41:02.150 --> 00:41:04.410 Do you think there've been improvements 00:41:04.410 --> 00:41:07.543 since you released that Ted Talk? 00:41:10.200 --> 00:41:14.230 - I think so, a little bit, yeah, I think so. 00:41:14.230 --> 00:41:17.373 I'm also generally, I guess I'd like to be, 00:41:18.646 --> 00:41:22.010 yeah, I think there's a greater awareness 00:41:22.010 --> 00:41:25.960 that this idea of that you cannot judge a person 00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:28.210 by one story that we all, most people, 00:41:28.210 --> 00:41:29.950 and a place as well. 00:41:29.950 --> 00:41:32.510 And also, I think there's a bit more of an awareness 00:41:32.510 --> 00:41:34.720 in media about power 00:41:34.720 --> 00:41:36.830 and how power really affects storytelling, 00:41:36.830 --> 00:41:37.880 especially of places, 00:41:38.820 --> 00:41:40.250 that if you're a journalist from New York 00:41:40.250 --> 00:41:41.327 and you swoop into Legos 00:41:41.327 --> 00:41:43.750 and write a piece about Nigeria, 00:41:43.750 --> 00:41:45.350 Nigerian cannot swoop into New York 00:41:45.350 --> 00:41:47.730 and it's just that the part is a part difference. 00:41:47.730 --> 00:41:50.190 I think there's a bit more of an awareness of that, 00:41:50.190 --> 00:41:52.790 but obviously there's so much more that can be done. 00:41:53.650 --> 00:41:58.650 I think, and I think even in television, 00:41:59.140 --> 00:42:03.570 which can be very guilty of a single story of coverage. 00:42:03.570 --> 00:42:08.570 I feel as though there's just a bit more of an awareness, 00:42:08.870 --> 00:42:09.703 I think so. 00:42:11.909 --> 00:42:14.716 I feel like I'm certain, so? 00:42:14.716 --> 00:42:17.446 - No, what were you gonna say? 00:42:17.446 --> 00:42:20.750 - No, I was going to be kind of silly and say that, 00:42:20.750 --> 00:42:22.780 I think maybe there's this a little bit of an improvement 00:42:22.780 --> 00:42:26.283 with me and my single stories of people and places. 00:42:28.860 --> 00:42:31.890 - Well, it's been wonderful to talk to you, 00:42:31.890 --> 00:42:36.890 thank you so much for your time and sharing your stories 00:42:38.220 --> 00:42:40.368 and your journey with us. 00:42:40.368 --> 00:42:42.103 - Thank you, it was really lovely.