0:00:10.540,0:00:11.680 ROTHENBERG:[br]If you don't know what you're doing 0:00:11.680,0:00:14.602 out here in the Southwest[br]in this kind of isolation, 0:00:15.760,0:00:17.840 if you don't understand that[br]you're supposed to have work 0:00:17.840,0:00:19.344 and a purpose to every day, 0:00:20.000,0:00:22.480 you're going to float off[br]into the stratosphere 0:00:22.480,0:00:25.445 or move very quickly[br]back to an urban center. 0:00:29.960,0:00:33.240 [ scraping ] 0:00:33.240,0:00:36.400 The first year was a very hard[br]adjustment just to light-- 0:00:36.400,0:00:38.431 just to the amount[br]of light here. 0:00:42.000,0:00:44.280 So I did make modifications[br]in my studio plan 0:00:44.280,0:00:45.680 to cut out some light 0:00:45.680,0:00:49.159 and to reproduce the New York[br]situation of floodlights. 0:01:02.120,0:01:03.465 I love red. 0:01:05.317,0:01:06.981 I use a lot of red. 0:01:07.560,0:01:09.732 I use innumerable tubes[br]of white. 0:01:11.006,0:01:14.080 Uh, I try to dirty down[br]most of the colors that I use 0:01:14.080,0:01:17.315 rather than use them[br]in their pure form. 0:01:29.000,0:01:31.080 You squeeze a tube of color[br]and you see this bright green 0:01:31.080,0:01:32.475 and it's just frightening. 0:01:32.899,0:01:35.040 You know, it's this pure color[br]that somebody mixed up 0:01:35.040,0:01:37.634 and you just have to[br]immediately get after it 0:01:37.634,0:01:39.040 [ laughs ] 0:01:39.040,0:01:43.439 and, uh, make it, you know,[br]fight with orange or something. 0:01:46.680,0:01:49.260 I tend to make all my paintings[br]looking down. 0:01:49.742,0:01:51.960 It's just a point of view[br]that I've established 0:01:51.960,0:01:53.199 since living here. 0:01:53.759,0:01:55.880 I think you don't have that[br]in the city, 0:01:55.880,0:01:58.824 but living on the hills[br]and ups and downs and stuff. 0:02:00.000,0:02:02.520 And then being on a ladder[br]so much, 0:02:02.520,0:02:04.960 I'm starting to have[br]this kind of natural way 0:02:04.960,0:02:09.080 of not looking at something[br]but down on it. 0:02:09.080,0:02:11.200 Say there was a dead cow[br]in the creek once-- 0:02:11.200,0:02:13.960 which there was--[br]mysteriously. 0:02:13.960,0:02:18.819 Um, I saw the cow[br]from about 40 feet above. 0:02:19.880,0:02:22.211 And that painting became[br]"Galisteo Creek." 0:02:24.083,0:02:27.007 So I've taken[br]what I learned outside 0:02:27.640,0:02:29.840 and brought it[br]into these interiors. 0:02:37.520,0:02:41.054 And now that's pretty much[br]what I want to do with them. 0:02:44.449,0:02:48.120 And the studio painting[br]became extremely green, 0:02:48.120,0:02:50.280 but that was out of[br]the preceding body of work-- 0:02:50.280,0:02:51.628 the "Domino" paintings-- 0:02:52.361,0:02:56.838 where I felt free to take green[br]right out of a landscape context 0:02:57.320,0:03:00.149 into any operation I cared to. 0:03:03.240,0:03:05.751 Green became[br]a very exciting event. 0:03:08.356,0:03:09.583 It felt fresh. 0:03:11.101,0:03:16.000 Red-- red is just like[br]part of my internal palette 0:03:16.000,0:03:18.125 a... a warm, warm tone. 0:03:19.360,0:03:22.152 And then my other favorite deal[br]is dirty white, 0:03:22.944,0:03:24.227 because... 0:03:25.192,0:03:27.098 it would be[br]too bright and colorful. 0:03:27.098,0:03:29.760 [ laughs ] 0:03:29.760,0:03:31.966 And it's not my nature. 0:03:38.160,0:03:40.560 There's got to be traces[br]of 15-year-old turpentine 0:03:41.120,0:03:43.032 in those cans. 0:03:47.643,0:03:52.080 Every painting carries through[br]the same brushes 0:03:52.080,0:03:54.727 and the same moves[br]as the last painting. 0:03:58.760,0:04:00.790 But again,[br]if I need a clear color 0:04:01.600,0:04:03.800 and I don't see that any of[br]my cans are going to give me 0:04:03.800,0:04:05.826 anything but, you know,[br]the dirty down, 0:04:06.000,0:04:07.947 I'll start a new can 0:04:08.757,0:04:11.066 and actually once in a while[br]wash a brush... 0:04:11.240,0:04:14.012 so it will be free[br]of old colors. 0:04:18.160,0:04:23.951 I was a very social kid up[br]through college, past college. 0:04:26.228,0:04:29.880 And, uh, no, and I don't think[br]anybody that knew me 0:04:29.880,0:04:32.552 in high school or college[br]would ever have thought that I 0:04:33.690,0:04:35.120 would have been[br]successful at anything 0:04:35.120,0:04:37.680 much less spending[br]80% of my life alone 0:04:37.680,0:04:39.188 in a white room... 0:04:39.188,0:04:40.383 [ laughs ] 0:04:40.383,0:04:42.256 making work. It's... it's odd. 0:05:03.897,0:05:06.871 It was a wonderful world[br]in the early '70s. 0:05:09.360,0:05:11.640 Artists worked with dancers. 0:05:11.640,0:05:12.840 It was very mixed up. 0:05:12.840,0:05:14.914 It was very interdisciplinary. 0:05:15.705,0:05:17.682 I performed with Joan Jonas, 0:05:18.801,0:05:20.473 and that was so much fun. 0:05:21.303,0:05:25.600 And I had studied painting. [br]I was interested in painting. 0:05:25.600,0:05:27.960 When I got a studio[br]and first started painting 0:05:27.960,0:05:30.600 and then I started getting[br]a little attention for my work 0:05:30.600,0:05:32.903 and I had a show[br]and I sold a painting. 0:05:33.520,0:05:35.520 So then I started making[br]more paintings, 0:05:35.520,0:05:36.760 trying to find out my identity. 0:05:36.760,0:05:38.403 And when I stumbled[br]on the horse, 0:05:40.680,0:05:44.080 I went, "Okay, this can be[br]my Jasper Johns Flag." 0:05:44.080,0:05:48.123 This can be nothing to me,[br]because I don't like horses. 0:05:48.779,0:05:50.480 I can draw a line through it[br]and make it flat. 0:05:50.480,0:05:52.120 I can take all the things[br]that I've learned 0:05:52.120,0:05:53.398 in the last couple years 0:05:53.398,0:05:57.003 and negate painting [br]as much as possible 0:05:57.891,0:06:00.620 in terms of illusionism [br]and shadow 0:06:00.620,0:06:02.315 and composition[br]and stuff, 0:06:02.315,0:06:06.464 and that was my run[br]from '73 or '74 to '80. 0:06:06.792,0:06:11.826 And that's what I guess I made my reputation on, [br]because they were acceptable 0:06:12.231,0:06:16.381 as paintings and [br]acceptable as, um... 0:06:16.381,0:06:18.836 not going backwards. 0:06:20.206,0:06:22.587 But most artists really wish[br]they had a series 0:06:24.787,0:06:27.119 where one painting would lead[br]to the next painting, 0:06:27.119,0:06:28.398 and it would be[br]a variation on it. 0:06:28.398,0:06:30.617 And that's what happened[br]in my early career-- the horses. 0:06:32.734,0:06:34.879 But the paintings[br]are more of a battle 0:06:34.879,0:06:38.364 to satisfy myself with now and[br]I do not have a sense of series. 0:06:38.364,0:06:41.648 This, as you see here,[br]these are two snake paintings. 0:06:42.015,0:06:44.160 Two paintings that are about 0:06:44.160,0:06:47.230 this idea I had called[br]"meaningless gestures." 0:06:48.619,0:06:50.320 And two paintings[br]that are a reflection 0:06:50.320,0:06:53.783 of my domestic situation[br]in the house there. 0:06:54.960,0:06:56.600 And each of them,[br]the second painting 0:06:56.600,0:06:58.396 seems to complete the series, 0:06:58.396,0:06:59.443 which is weird, 0:07:00.480,0:07:02.626 because I'd like to get[br]a hold of something 0:07:03.475,0:07:06.000 and be on that idea[br]for a couple of years at least. 0:07:06.000,0:07:07.801 But that's not happening[br]at the moment. 0:07:09.000,0:07:12.791 I'm able to work through 0:07:13.505,0:07:16.343 periods when there's no real 0:07:16.343,0:07:18.502 important idea in my mind. 0:07:19.312,0:07:24.708 I can draw;[br]I can learn to make a clay pot. 0:07:25.480,0:07:29.057 At least I find some reason[br]to work just about every day. 0:07:30.137,0:07:32.240 Because the block[br]is the terriblest. 0:07:32.240,0:07:33.520 It's just terrible. 0:07:33.520,0:07:36.520 It's terrible to have a couple[br]of months where you can't... 0:07:36.520,0:07:40.129 You're disheartened, because[br]you think everything stinks. 0:07:40.920,0:07:42.200 You just do. 0:07:42.200,0:07:43.343 It happens. 0:07:44.520,0:07:47.960 If you're not in your studio[br]physically most every day, 0:07:48.635,0:07:51.937 you've denied the possibility[br]of anything happening. 0:07:52.400,0:07:54.160 So even if you're reading[br]a detective novel, 0:07:54.160,0:07:55.404 you should be there. 0:07:56.600,0:07:57.520 And then sometimes you just 0:07:57.520,0:07:58.720 throw your book[br]down on the floor, 0:07:58.720,0:07:59.800 march off to a painting 0:07:59.800,0:08:00.808 and say, 0:08:01.522,0:08:05.160 "Ah, something's wrong[br]here and I'm, you know... " Pull the table over, 0:08:05.160,0:08:07.320 throw my painting shirt on[br]and get going. 0:08:07.320,0:08:10.191 And sometimes hours pass[br]that I'm working. 0:08:11.040,0:08:12.560 But I almost always do something 0:08:12.560,0:08:15.268 before I go in the house[br]to watch the news. 0:08:15.480,0:08:18.396 I mean, even if I put 0:08:18.666,0:08:21.920 a wrong stroke on something or change a contour, 0:08:21.920,0:08:24.824 and that's[br]the only stroke I did, I do it 0:08:25.000,0:08:27.658 just to have done[br]some work that day. 0:08:35.000,0:08:39.280 [ bird cawing ] 0:08:39.280,0:08:43.844 No, I think I'm remarkably lucky[br]to be on this piece of land. 0:08:46.526,0:08:48.879 It's not that I think[br]any special thoughts. 0:08:50.000,0:08:51.939 It's just... 0:08:53.000,0:08:55.546 I walk usually[br]about 45 minutes. 0:08:55.546,0:08:58.809 It's just completely[br]part of my pattern, 0:08:59.021,0:09:04.097 you know, and sometimes I walk[br]fast with exercise in mind and sometimes I amble. 0:09:05.505,0:09:07.501 It's a wonderful place to walk. 0:09:07.501,0:09:10.773 There's three or four[br]different terrains to walk in. 0:09:12.220,0:09:13.880 It's meditative. 0:09:13.880,0:09:17.320 I'm always looking at the ground to [br]look for a beador an arrowhead 0:09:17.320,0:09:20.673 or what seems to be[br]two pieces of the same pot. 0:09:21.040,0:09:22.093 If you see... 0:09:23.714,0:09:25.649 I think that piece goes there. 0:09:27.636,0:09:29.630 That one definitely goes there. 0:09:30.360,0:09:32.702 So it's a small piece[br]of a 0:09:32.702,0:09:35.502 11th- or 12th-century pot. 0:09:54.164,0:09:58.080 I keep looking at this painting[br]and thinking, why can't I just nail it-- 0:09:58.080,0:10:00.935 just make it be whatever[br]it's supposed to be and move on? 0:10:03.520,0:10:05.280 So it's constant reviewing 0:10:05.280,0:10:08.010 and I can't say what[br]makes me say that's wrong, 0:10:08.280,0:10:10.907 that stays, that goes,[br]this should be longer. 0:10:11.486,0:10:14.428 It's, uh, it's sitting there[br]and looking, 0:10:14.640,0:10:17.646 and going, "Uh-uh, 0:10:18.514,0:10:19.851 I have to do something." 0:10:22.456,0:10:24.265 And it had to be done[br]with color. 0:10:31.880,0:10:34.837 One's been bugging me for--[br]it's been around the studio for 0:10:35.000,0:10:37.635 four or five months[br]on and off, reworked. 0:10:38.040,0:10:39.480 And I kept thinking,[br]"Oh, it's okay. 0:10:39.480,0:10:43.328 I'm not interested any more[br]in doing this, so it's okay." 0:10:43.598,0:10:45.754 But it simply... wasn't. 0:10:46.854,0:10:50.588 It's closer I think now[br]to where I can leave it. 0:10:59.360,0:11:02.920 It's very few paintings[br]that come fast and sharp, 0:11:02.920,0:11:07.967 like the small snake painting in[br]there was two days, three days, 0:11:08.160,0:11:09.280 and I don't want to touch it. 0:11:09.280,0:11:11.400 It is what it is[br]and it's... it... 0:11:11.400,0:11:13.223 It's, uh, I like it. 0:11:16.504,0:11:19.481 I'm not really[br]a "less is more" person, but 0:11:20.214,0:11:21.833 I figure... 0:11:23.280,0:11:26.442 a hand on a table[br]suggests a human being. 0:11:29.960,0:11:32.595 I don't want to get too literal[br]about things. 0:11:34.640,0:11:37.123 I want the viewer to be able[br]to do the work, too. 0:11:42.313,0:11:45.701 And I find a dragonfly beautiful 0:11:46.241,0:11:48.068 and a snake beautiful. 0:11:50.229,0:11:53.435 Yeah, and many things beautiful. 0:11:55.307,0:11:57.741 But it's not a... a... 0:11:58.339,0:12:03.309 a goal to try for it or expect to achieve it[br]in my own work. 0:12:03.869,0:12:06.985 I'm trying for,[br]let's take truth... 0:12:07.390,0:12:09.010 [ laughs ] 0:12:09.010,0:12:11.683 some kind of truth[br]about some kind of thing.